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Queer Enough and Down to F*ck with Karley Sciortino
1.9k Plays5 years ago
Two Bi Guys is produced by Rob Cohen, Alex Boyd, and Moxie Peng
Music by Ross Mintzer
Cover art by Kaitlin Weinman
Karley Sciortino's book, Slutever: https://www.amazon.com/Slutever-Dispatches-Sexually-Autonomous-Post-Shame-ebook/dp/B071986LB8/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1594401191&sr=8-2
Karley's new podcast, Love In Quarantine: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-in-quarantine/id1508636808#:~:text=Love%20In%20Quarantine%20is%20hosted,quarantine%20that%20isn't%20depressing.
The "Bisexual Men" episode of Slutever that inspired this podcast: https://www.vicetv.com/en_us/video/bisexual-men-1-774/5c0a974ebe407728f37431ce
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Transcript
Introduction and Inspiration
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Alex. And I'm Rob. Welcome back. We have a very, very special and exciting guest today with us. She is one of the people that inspired this podcast, perhaps more than anyone else. Please welcome Carly Shortino to Two Bye Guys. Hi, Carly. Hi. Oh, my God. I actually didn't know that piece of information. I don't know if you were just lied, but I like it either way.
00:00:37
Speaker
Well, so so Carly is a sex columnist for Vogue. She's the author of Slut Ever, a blog and a book about sex and relationships. And she is the host and executive producer of Slut Ever on Viceland, which was what inspired this. And so Alex and I were on that episode about bisexual men, which aired like a year and a half ago, almost at this point, right? We recorded it about two years ago.
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think I came out almost a year and a half ago now. Yeah, we loved doing that. We were so excited the day that we did it. I like remember that day, it was right around Pride. And then it and then the show didn't air until nine months later. And we loved the show and it was such a great like representation of bi men that you hadn't really seen before.
00:01:24
Speaker
but we watched it and like you know we recorded with you for like 90 minutes or something and then it's obviously cut down and it was five minutes of us or something like that and so when it aired Alex and I were kind of like this was great but like we want to keep this going we want more of this out there and then we actually also heard you on an episode of How Come the Podcast where you were talking about Slut Ever and you were talking about like
00:01:51
Speaker
There's a lack of a conversation for, especially for sexually fluid men talking vulnerably. And so all of those things you did encouraged us to do this. So welcome, Carly. We're excited to have you.
00:02:06
Speaker
That I'm, I feel extremely flattered. That was truly in my top two favorite episodes that we ever did. Because I just think for one, it was funny, which I think helps, you know, but everyone on the, but I think a big part of that is because everyone that we interviewed was like very vulnerable, but didn't take themselves very seriously. And I think that that is something that is so wonderful when talking about sexuality, because it's so approachable.
00:02:33
Speaker
I got such good feedback too from that whole episode and particularly that scene with you guys, which was we came and visited a support group in New York for Bye Guys, which maybe you guys have already talked about this on the podcast before, but the fact that that existed, I was like,
00:02:51
Speaker
Oh, cool. Like, you know, it's not just something that you think of. And the kind of joke of the episode was like, where are all the bi guys hiding? You know? And then we were like, I guess, hiding right out in the open in a publicly advertised support group for bisexual men.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah. Well, Alex and I actually met in that support group. That's how we know each other in the first place. And the title of our first episode of this podcast last year was Where Are All the Buy Guys? Because we learned that they are out there, that we are out there in numbers that people don't see, and it is so invisible.
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, but you can't take you can't take it too seriously because it's like well because like it's just like our identity like so many other episodes you did like these are like passions that they have that like it's something that like very specific maybe that kind of like turns them on or something and maybe has like a lot of stigma in it and like I feel like the the unique quality of like by men is like we we're literally by men all the time and like we're also occasionally having fun
00:03:59
Speaker
so we're like having fun as bi people so like you know i feel like it was definitely i don't know i love the whole show but but obviously that and then like trans relationships from season one was just a really cool look at like just people living their lives who have these sexualities
00:04:15
Speaker
Well, thank you, first of
Male Sexuality Post-Me Too
00:04:17
Speaker
all. And also, I think that it is specific to talk about bye guys, because I don't think it's talked about that much. I think that there's an aversion, what you were talking about before, to hearing men talk about sexuality, especially in a time when it feels, you know, like post me to where it's just like,
00:04:38
Speaker
women are reclaiming, you know, they'd be like reclaiming like a sexual space and like taking up sexual space in a way that's like positive and empowering, but I think sometimes it's like we can be too quick to just shut down male voices, too, where it's just like you've been talking about sex forever and like we're fucking done hearing what you have to say, right?
00:05:01
Speaker
But I think that in order for anything to change and all sexuality to be more accepted, everyone has to be part of the conversation. I mean, this is the most cliche thing ever, so I'm sorry that I even just said that out loud.
00:05:14
Speaker
But I think that it does feel like there's a vacuum, both in just like men talking about it in general, and then also definitely bisexual men. There's definitely some gay guys in the space. I mean, Dan Savage is obviously the person to reference, but I don't know. Are there more now that you guys are in this space? Are there other like versions of you?
00:05:37
Speaker
There's some, but there's still not a ton. And there's, there's, you know, I don't know that there's like a Dan Savage with a presence like that. It's still fairly underrepresented. And I think it like part of it goes back to this like notion of masculinity and which doesn't really allow for much vulnerability, at least in many, you know, straight white guys conception of it. And so it's hard, it's hard for people to balance and figure that out. Yeah.
00:06:04
Speaker
Yeah. But like all the men talking about sexuality, I swear are like academics too. Like that's all you can find. And it's like, I don't, I don't really care about like the theory behind sexuality and like how it's founded and in like childhood, right? Like that's less important than like, how is it impacting adults today? Right. Totally.
00:06:23
Speaker
So I want to get back to bi men and stuff in that episode in a little bit. There's so much more to talk about. But I want to start a little bit with you. Where do you fit into this conversation? How do you identify on any of these spectrums you want to identify on?
00:06:40
Speaker
It was funny. I had this idea when I was planning to do this episode the other day where I was like, I bet they're going to ask me like if identify as bisexual. And I was like, I can't even figure out if I do. It's so weird. And then I was like, I should think about that beforehand. And then I didn't. So now I can just like think about it in real time. Yeah, perfect. Well, that's interesting that it's that it is a tough question. You know, like, yeah, what's your thinking?
00:07:01
Speaker
I know, it's like I wrote a, like we were talking before, I wrote this book called Slut Ever, in which I kind of was trying to work this out a little bit in terms of how I identify. But you know, I wrote that a few years ago now. So even over time, I think our ideas about these things change. And basically, the kind of objective facts are that I have primarily slept with men my whole life, but then around, you know, like made out with girls in high school and stuff. And then in my,
00:07:30
Speaker
20s started having like cookups with girls sometimes. And then when I was 27 to 30, I had like a very serious relationship with a woman for three years. And it was actually surprising to me even at the time. Like I was like, it was one of those, I knew I was attracted to women sometimes and like very skewing masculine. Like I always kind of attracted to it masculinity.
00:07:57
Speaker
you know, like how to crush on literally J.D. Sampson when I was a late teen, like basic sort of tomboys and I guess women who probably in 2020 maybe would be a trans man or gender nonconforming. But like at the time it wasn't the thing. So they were just like very masculine women.
00:08:20
Speaker
But anyway, so then we had this relationship and it was surprising to me because it's just like you fall in love with who you fall in love with. And then so that started to change my idea about how I identified because it was a real serious relationship rather than just
00:08:35
Speaker
Sex. But then I have had this weird thing with the term bisexual because it's like problematic in some ways too, where my partner at the time was woman, right? But then I remember she was like at the end of our relationship, like questioning, thinking maybe that she would be defined as they, which they now do. And, you know, she at the time was springing up how like bi means two, you know?
00:09:04
Speaker
And that means that you like one of two genders. And all of these things, right? I don't want to get in the weeds. It's just a word. And it's a word that has been really marginalized. So there's also a lot of power in claiming that word. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying you're bisexual. Sometimes I call myself that sometimes I don't.
00:09:24
Speaker
But it always just felt kind of like clinical to me. And as someone who kind of rejected the labels in general, I was just like, Oh, this word feels like very loaded in
Labels and Identity
00:09:34
Speaker
a lot of ways. Yeah. And so I just was like, Oh, I identify as flexible. Like that was my whole thing.
00:09:40
Speaker
And I think I still do and now it's interesting because I'm like in a long-term relationship with a guy for three years and I don't think that that erases your sexual path. I think it's weird to be like I'm straight because I'm in a straight, you know, it's like you like are you gay because you're in a gay relationship? No, but then it's like I still like
00:09:57
Speaker
Something about the idea of identifying as bisexual while in a straight relationship when I overwhelmingly have like been in male relationships makes me think I should just say flexible still because I know it's not true. I feel like I'm talking so much. I know it's not true, but by
00:10:14
Speaker
seems more like in the middle to me. Does that make sense? Personally, I don't think a lot of people do. I mean, I think it's that thing of like, we're reclaiming that word to mean what we want it to mean now because the movement of bisexuality historically has not been trans exclusive and has not meant to, but you know, by definition, sort of literally it does. And I felt the same thing with partners where like,
00:10:42
Speaker
to reassert that I'm bi while in a relationship, I don't want to hurt their feelings because they may assume that I need to be with another person of another gender at the same time. So those assumptions are always out there and it's hard to fight and when you choose that label bi, we end up fighting those battles a lot and pushing back against those assumptions.
00:11:07
Speaker
I think all these words are just a way to get to know people and for people to get to know you and they all mean a different thing to different people so like the explanation you just gave is a nice window into your sexuality whatever you want to call it.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and I like truly, I think you're right, it's so personal. I genuinely have no problem with the term bi. I'm not like, oh my God, people who identify as bisexual, like hate trans people, you know, like I don't think that that's true. But I just like something about labels. I think sometimes labels are freedom, right? Like people, if you can use a label to like connect with people and to signify who you are and what you like, and if that's empowering, that's great. And I think sometimes labels are like bogged down with a lot of like political,
00:11:52
Speaker
baggage or just like historical baggage. And for me, I was just like, I literally would rather say like, I'm DTF because I don't even fucking care about that stupid word.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's entirely true. And I've talked about it on the podcast a lot, but this is too bad, guys. But I have queer tattooed on my back. I am queer. Absolutely, that is the word that I would choose to use and similar to you. Flexible, to me, reads as a mindset, an approach to relationships, an approach to how you maybe react to different genders.
00:12:24
Speaker
Whereas bisexual does, and we talk about this all this time, it sets a quota, so there is a whole lot of baggage in there. I think you're saying that's a loaded term. I think most bi people, bi plus people, feel that in some way. So that does give us 20 million different labels to pick from. And it sounds like you, and also I search for the label that means the least, right? That just holds the least water, you know?
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah, that doesn't box you in in too many ways. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right. And wait, can I ask you a question? Because you said the queer thing. I mean, this is all like completely changing with time. But I feel like now I almost wouldn't feel comfortable identifying as queer because queer now
00:13:09
Speaker
in the world that we live in like means a lot I think and I almost feel like I'm not gay enough like I'm not queer enough to be queer although I don't even know what that means because like how many serious relationships do you have to begin with someone of your same sex do you know what I mean I feel like queer is like right now just like a movement that I don't feel as much of a part of right now to say that
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a whole lot of truth to that. And I think, I know Rob wants to say something clearly here, but like, no, I think that the queer movement is very much so a thing. It's something that's breaking down the binary gender, breaking down that binary sexuality spectrum too. I don't know, I identify as bi and pansexual too for a reason, because those things point to my sexuality. Queer points to like, my way of being, which is
00:13:58
Speaker
is much more broad, that includes gender, that includes sexuality, that includes my place on like the asexual spectrum too. Rob, did you want to say something? Well, I mean, you can identify however you want, and if a certain label doesn't feel right, that's totally your choice. But like, what I know about you and your career, like, I totally think you're queer enough to use it if you wanted, even just because of the show, because
00:14:23
Speaker
the show went into so many queer issues, not even just like the trans episode or the bi men episode, but other types of non-heteronormative, non-conforming sexualities or fetishes or whatever. All of that is, you know, part of the queer existence and part of a queer world.
00:14:45
Speaker
But then does it start to mean nothing? It's just like, if you've interviewed someone who lives in a dungeon, are you queer? I just feel like if I was queer, I'd be like, there's gotta be a barrier to entryway at some point.
00:14:58
Speaker
Well yes, but also the future that Alex and I have talked about as like the perfect queer utopia is like a world where everyone is queer because it's about like saying fuck the rules and fuck the norms and like queerness can be, you know, that mentality in many different ways. And so I think we should be expanding the definition of queer to anyone who is comfortable enough to claim it.
00:15:25
Speaker
I think that there's, and not to directly contradict you, Rob, but I also- No, I love it. I love it when we disagree. Yeah, go ahead. But I disagree. No, I'm editing this out. The way I see it is there's like a queer movement happening that is based in LGBT people, right? And then there's the movement to kind of explore sexuality in a way that is less stigmatized and less like puritanical as the one that at least I grew up with.
00:15:50
Speaker
which was like very damaging just to like straight people in like who are perfectly straight and perfectly cis. Do you have thoughts Carly? No that that makes sense right I think that there's like multiple ways in which we're making sexual progress and it's like sex positivity one would I like slut positivity or whatever you would call it
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, does queer mean just not heteronormative or not normal or not like constrained or doesn't mean literally LGBT? Yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it that it's like, we're talking about hetter and breaking down heteronormativity, and then breaking down like one's identity, right? Like, and those are two very different things. Queerness is kind of like breaking down that heteronormativity maybe to some extent, but it's
00:16:56
Speaker
So my, one of my best friends, her name is Dr. Zhanov Rangalova. She's a human sexuality professor at NYU. I'm not gonna get into the number chart, but basically, they did a study where they asked people how they sexually identify on a three point spectrum. Are you gay? Are you straight? Are you bisexual? And like, almost everybody says straight. And then there's like, you know, whatever a couple of percentage of people say gay, which is
00:17:01
Speaker
at the core of it
00:17:17
Speaker
How weirdly, did you know there's only like 3% of people are gay, like 2 to 3%? Seems like way more, but anyways. And then there's like a couple percentages of people who are bisexual. And then when they expanded it and they asked people on a six point scale if it's like, are you gay, mostly gay, bisexual, mostly straight or straight, then there's like this enormous new population that arises of mostly straight.
Reclaiming Sexuality and Autonomy
00:17:43
Speaker
Because, you know, what she's saying is that
00:17:45
Speaker
people who have some gay or queer impulses or even like behaviors, whether it's like hooking up with someone of the same sex once or watching gay pornography or like fantasizing about people of the same gender like they don't
00:18:01
Speaker
Identify as bisexual is because like you said it just seems like an extreme word and she was like what's weird is that sometimes? People who have had a somewhat of a significant amount of same-sex hookups But would don't see themselves ever dating some of the same sex don't identify as bisexual and she's like says to them She's like but but you have sex with people of multiple genders like why don't we identify bisexual and they're like to get them straight That's so interesting
00:18:28
Speaker
Well, that was me for a while before I was comfortable identifying as bi. And we've had done full episodes of the podcast about exactly that group of people. And I think that that group, that mostly straight group, is way bigger than anyone realizes.
00:18:46
Speaker
Like in those studies where they ask that, especially among young people, there's like more and more people identifying within that range. Yeah, that I know so many people in that group. I mean, I think a lot of people, even if it's just in terms of fantasy and pornography, I don't think people file that stuff into sexual identity very much, seemingly.
00:19:10
Speaker
Yeah, even though it's like literally turning them on, right? Like in the moment when it's like turning them on, like, which is fair though. And you, you know, we've highlighted the idea of like identifying as straight, even if you're not a hundred percent straight. And it's like, why should you identify as bi if you've only slept with like one person of the same gender and have no interest in ever doing so again? If you don't feel like that's important to you,
00:19:35
Speaker
then I don't feel like there needs to be this push for you to like own a label that you don't really have much thought process about, I guess. Yes, but it contributes to this erasure because like, well, we've got into this so much, but it's like, but yes, it may not be that important to you, but like it's still a thing that then we're hiding by identifying a straight and like, why is it important to hide? Like what, you know, what if it wasn't a big deal either way?
00:20:11
Speaker
So you mentioned like your sexuality as DTF basically and like and your books whatever and like interestingly I identify so much with your story of like mostly having relationships with the person of the opposite sex but then in my 20s and later starting to have these other desires and attractions and experiences
00:20:33
Speaker
And like I identified too with like, oh, maybe I'm just like more interested in sex and sexuality than I thought. So what's your relationship with the word slut? What does that mean to you? And how does it sort of mesh with your sexuality or bisect fluidity or not? Is it separate or is it part of it?
00:20:53
Speaker
Hmm, that's interesting. Is it separate? I think, well, I mean, I started a blog called slot ever when I was 21. And it was always, you know, this irreverent name of trying to reclaim the word slot, you know, kind of like funny as a kind of like a reverent form of resistance.
00:21:09
Speaker
And then I always I liked that name because to me slut was something that clearly I saw used to denigrate or to pressure women to not, you know, live their slutty truth. And I was slut was something that I was called in high school because I was slutty and like people picked up on
00:21:26
Speaker
it, I guess. But, you know, I remember when I was a teenager, like in my late 20s, and I saw this picture of Kathleen Hanna from Bikini Kill performing like that sort of riot girl band and from the 90s, and she had slot written across her stomach in red lipstick, and she was performing. And I remember just thinking that she looked so incredibly cool. And it just like hit me like that this
00:21:50
Speaker
that embodying this thing and being like, fuck you, like, call me slut, okay, like, deal with it. And like, I accept that and that you can hijack this word that's intended to hurt you and use it as a symbol of like power. And you can be funny with it, you know, and you don't have to take yourself too seriously.
00:22:08
Speaker
And so part of what I'm talking about in my book and a part of what I kind of like always blabbing about is the idea of reclaiming that word. Because I think that historically reclaiming words has been so successful by the communities who feel oppression under those labels. Like queer is a great example. And like a lot of racial slurs and like fag, butch, like the communities who were suffering under those labels just
00:22:33
Speaker
took them back. And I think I don't think see why slut is any different. And so in the book, I redefine slut as being like, you know, any person who seeks out visceral experiences through sex and who, you know, sleeps with who they want, how they want, and sort of doesn't have like a moral obstacle or doesn't let shame get in the way of that. Or at least, you know, that's the goal.
00:22:56
Speaker
You know, I think we all have shame that we're sort of constantly working through. But it doesn't to me mean like fucking every person in the room. It means being sexually activated and seeing like sex as a as fun and additive to your life and like a part of your personality. And so that.
00:23:13
Speaker
I think I still identify that way because it's almost like as a mindset, you know, I think that you can be slut in a monogamous relationship, too, because it can mean constantly seeing sex as like a part of your life that you want to expand and like deepen and like become more fluent in and try new things. And it's not so it's not about like your body count, basically, but it's more about exploration.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's very interesting because like I identify so much with those things you're saying and a lot of that started to happen to me and those realizations came as I was realizing I was by and coming out as by and like
00:23:50
Speaker
I also was realizing I wanted to be like more slutty. But I didn't want to use that word or like I didn't feel like that could apply to me. I think it sort of does mean something different for men and women or like I don't even know what it really would mean for a guy. But like bi was sort of my way of
00:24:11
Speaker
partially at least saying like, I want to explore more stuff. I don't want to be boxed into this type of sex. I want like, more, which is all I know that's also like, problematic in some ways, because there are bi people on the asexual spectrum, like it doesn't necessarily mean sluttiness, but but for me, they ended up coming together. Well, and I think I think what you're highlighting there, and what I'm
00:24:37
Speaker
thinking as Carly you're speaking is like slut is like your queer, right? Like they're serving very similar purposes of like freeing and like getting rid of shame. And I feel like it does get the same result in some ways, right? Totally. And I think like it's interesting, there's overlap two words like can you identify as a slut when you're in a monogamous relationship, right? Can you identify as bisexual if you're in a straight relationship?
00:25:01
Speaker
I think that these things are all really personal and it's kind of this combination of like literally who cares but also it being kind of meaningful at the same time because it's like especially if you're interviewed about it. I feel like if I wasn't interviewed about it I just wouldn't think about it.
00:25:18
Speaker
It is true. The more we have to talk about this stuff on the podcast, the more I'm like, oh, I guess I think that now that I said that. But I do think that it's like, I mean, I am kind of joking. I do think that these things are really good to consider.
00:25:33
Speaker
Of course, but I feel like I've gotten like, I remember my book came out, I got some like hostile, cunty journalists who were like, well, how, how do you like reconcile, you know, calling yourself a slut now that you're in a monogamous relationship, like are your sweaty days over, you know, and it's just like this weird experience where it's like,
00:25:52
Speaker
just because you're like reclaiming the word slut or saying that like, you know, having a sexually activated life as a woman, it's a positive thing, doesn't go hand in hand with being like, and I will never be in a monogamous relationship. It's like, what do you you're, you're taking the most simplified version of what I'm saying. It's like, I'm talking about female sexual autonomy, and just like sexual autonomy agency for all people. I'm not talking about rejecting the idea of having
00:26:20
Speaker
being in a relationship. Do you know what I mean? Totally. It really is about like sexual acceptance and exploration and it's not about let's see how many people that you can have sex with forever until you die. Yeah. It goes back to all these labels ending up boxing people in because of the assumptions that other people bring to it when you start using a label. Yeah. Yeah. Those people are so shame-y. That is so like such distinct shame and also like so person-like
00:26:49
Speaker
Oh, this bitch. She worked for like the New York Post, obviously, and then wrote some really kind of rude thing about me being, I don't know, a dominatrix. It was just some I mean, it was very New York Posty. Honestly, I guess you should just be flatter that you got into the New York Post because it's such an insane institution. Anytime you put stuff out there, there's there's gonna be haters. I had an article about on Breitbart written about me because of some law and order episode I wrote. It's like, I guess I made it now that I'm hated on Breitbart.
00:27:19
Speaker
Wait, really? Like, I'm weirdly jealous of that. Yeah, these are life goals. Oh, yeah, it was crazy. I got I got hate messages for like, two days and then nobody cared after two days. I'm curious, because Rob like slipped a question in there, but then we didn't really touch on it. Can a guy be like a slut? Like, what? What does male sluttyness look like?
00:27:41
Speaker
Yeah, this is one that I, you know, I don't have the perfect answer. It's like, of course, in my definition, the one that I write in my book, I just say a person, you know, I think that again, I don't want to tell people what they can and can't identify as. And I think if a guy feels good as identifying as a slut, like, you know, perfect example, a guy's coming out his by after not feeling comfortable doing that. And he's,
00:28:04
Speaker
thinks that the term slutty is a funny and irreverent way of claiming a kind of new sexual sense of adventure, right? Like, I don't care, use it. The reality is is that slut for many decades has been used as a word to put down women. So I do think that when a woman identifies as a slut, it has more power or meaning or it's more subversive or transgressive or whatever you want to call it.
00:28:31
Speaker
But I don't think it really matters. But I do think it's like when a woman uses it, it does feel different to me than when a man uses it.
00:28:45
Speaker
So to get back to that Slut Ever episode a little on the bi men thing, I'm curious, like, was there anything that surprised you when you were filming that or that you learned or that changed your perception of male bisexuality? I feel like I learned a lot during that episode. One thing that I remember specifically was there was a guy who said that having sex with men made him better at having sex with women.
00:29:11
Speaker
That was me, I think. Or maybe Godwin. Really? So it was an Asian guy. Oh yeah, yeah, Godwin. Okay, but maybe you said it too. I'm sorry, I'm just remembering that we kept him saying it in the edit, so I saw that version of it more. Maybe you agreed. Sorry, I didn't mean to steal that from you. No, no, no. But I wanted to ask about that specifically too, because it's something
00:29:33
Speaker
I hadn't totally put together before that, but I've thought about it so much since then. And it really is true for me, too, that I felt very limited in terms of sexuality before I explored this, and I was so nervous to do anything outside the box. And sleeping with men helped me
00:29:55
Speaker
open up about what do I like or what do I want to try or what do I not want to try and like it opened me up to actually doing things that like I had never really thought of or no woman I had been with had ever proposed and so it did make sex with women better when I then did that again and it made me more communicative and open which I think is like a key to good sex.
00:30:20
Speaker
Totally. Do you have that experience too, Alex? Do I? I don't know. Well, because it's tough because I identified as gay first. So I was like, I was living the gay world, like in the gay world for so long, but I feel like
00:30:34
Speaker
I, unlike a lot of street folks, got to explore in a lot more ways then. And then I feel like there were less restraints. So then when I came out as bi, when I started living as a bi person and sleeping with women, I feel like there was less of a jump. I don't know, I feel like you learn, right? And men and women aren't so different. Their bodies have very distinct differences, obviously. But everything kind of helps you just work towards the goal of pleasure with people.
00:31:03
Speaker
And I'm curious what you, like if you've experienced that in some way too of like, because you said that you started sleeping with women occasionally, do you feel like that shifted your approach to sex, the sex that you were having at all? Yeah, I do. I mean, what you say is interesting, right? Which is just like, everybody's just a person and every, you know, like everybody just has a different body. So it's like, if we're dividing it by gender, is it reductive, right? It's like every person you sleep with realistically,
00:31:31
Speaker
can teach you something new and changes your approach to the way you have sex, right? So it's like if you get someone who's really generous, then you start to maybe want to be more generous, right? So it's like not just down gender lines for sure. But I think that we obviously grew up in a patriarchy, and I'm not the kind of person who like blames the patriarchy for everything, but I think that we're ingrained
00:31:56
Speaker
in us are these like gendered roles that we don't question and we just don't even think about them, right? So I think that like it's the same within relationships, where it's like we probably in a straight relationship, the way that you approach like childcare or money, or like all these other things in your relationship, you don't even realize that it's programmed in the back of your brain to have some of these certain kind of expectations. So then when you're in, I found when I was in a gay relationship,
00:32:23
Speaker
that there was things that I suddenly, that is a blank slate almost, that you're coming at it from the same place, right? Yeah, exactly. Perhaps nodding. So I think that that was the same with sex for me, which is just like,
00:32:38
Speaker
dumb thing. Who comes first? Things like that. How many times do people come? How long do we have sex for? When does sex end? There's just these things that are very basic that it's just like when you're straight, like usually you think the sex ends when the guy comes. Like that's, it's just easier. So the girl you try and have the girl come first. And if you, that doesn't happen, then it's like, then the guy.
Changing Relationship Dynamics
00:33:02
Speaker
Yeah. It's like, then it's a whole situation. Do you know what I'm saying?
00:33:05
Speaker
totally and that's exactly what my experience was in straight relationships too. Like I felt very locked into like a certain way that this goes and it's and yes who's gonna come and like it's over when I can't like I had trouble breaking out of that and breaking out of that
00:33:21
Speaker
dominant role. I think I always felt this pressure, whether my partner put that on me or not, not always, but I put it on myself to be in the dominant role. And I only started realizing when I had sex with men that like I didn't really love that role. Like I like it sometimes if it's if we talk about it, but I have learned I generally prefer to be more submissive, or I like things to be more equal and to just like talk things out.
00:33:51
Speaker
And like, I could never break out of that with women. And then just like other, you know, you just learn about new things that you like, because I agree with you, not everything is based on gender lines. But like, I don't know, I never had my nipples played with with women or like, nobody ever wanted to eat my ass. And so I would never even thought to like, ask for that or do that. The thought just didn't cross my mind. And then like,
00:34:18
Speaker
pretty quickly into this exploration. Okay, I wanted to eat my ass. And I was like, okay. And it blew my mind. I was like, oh my God, why is this not something everyone is doing? It's so cool. If I remember correctly, we went into like depth about this experience, right? Yeah.
00:34:37
Speaker
You're like, I'm not going back. I just love talking about my first. Yeah. Rimming experience. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm thinking about like why I'm struggling to answer this question and why like that that answer isn't as simple for me. And I think it is. I mean, you make a great point, Carly, that it's it is ingrained in like patriarchy and like the like heterosexual sex is a thing that we all can like imagine right now. And we know generally what it looks like. Right. And you're talking about it in the form of like who comes first and everything, too.
00:35:06
Speaker
Whereas I feel like queer sex of any couple or a group of people that isn't a man and a woman, all of those expectations are just put into question anyways. For example, when I was starting to explore it myself, we were on the same footing.
00:35:23
Speaker
If we serve different roles, like either of us could serve that role, right? And there was no distinction of like roles I could serve and roles like he could serve. Yeah. And then, but the weird thing is that even then when you flip out of it, like I can imagine a scenario and then you start sleeping with women and you're like, Oh, I'm sleeping with a woman. So like, I have to be the person in control. You know what I mean? Yeah. No. And that's a huge thing. I've talked about it a lot on here, but like,
00:35:47
Speaker
that expectation to be like the dominant one, the one in control, like absolutely was there and I feel like, like leads me to like primarily seek relationships, sexual and otherwise with queer people in general. So that there has been some uprooting of that expectation and I can just feel more comfortable in the first place. Like cis straight women are tough because like I know that there is an expectation that they've had throughout their life unless they have like some history of working, of being with queer men.
00:36:17
Speaker
that's interesting yeah i think it's you know it's just porn is a big part of it too you know you're saying we can all imagine how straight people have sex it's like i think the big part of that is because we watch porn and you know when i was when you were talking about rimming i thought of that too i was like yeah i don't
00:36:33
Speaker
I watch enough porn to like, feel like I would know if rimming men, women, rimming men would was prominent at all. And I never see that I'm sure there's a million and a half videos if you search for it, but there's everything but yeah, no, it's not something you say generally.
00:36:51
Speaker
Yeah, or like nipple play. I mean, you see women doing nipple play with men if the woman is like a dominatrix. Right. And it's like pain and stuff. Right, but that was something that never occurred to me. Like, I would play with woman's nipples, but like, I just thought mine were superfluous and I never like thought about it.
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's something kind of interesting about like, the nature, this is not something I've ever really thought about, but like the nature of like touch, where often in straight sex, like the woman is like the one who's touched, right? Or like played with and stuff. Whereas the to the gods or the girl like gives head or whatever, but there isn't as much maybe like sensual touching. Is that true?
00:37:35
Speaker
I don't know, it seems true based on my experience because I actually can remember one of the worst sex experiences of my life that happened right in the year before I came out. And I remember being with this girl and I just like,
00:37:52
Speaker
was not getting aroused and I didn't know why and I have this expectation that like if I'm with a woman and I'm were naked like I should be aroused right like what and then I got in my head like what's wrong with me why am I am I really gay all this negative thinking but now when I'm looking back at that and and I like have these
00:38:13
Speaker
vivid, traumatic memories of it. But I'm realizing it was that. I was touching her and she was not touching me. And there was almost no contact. It was almost like my body was poisonous or something. I was expected to be the one doing stuff to her.
00:38:35
Speaker
And neither of us was good enough to communicate about that. I wasn't comfortable enough at the time to actually talk about what was going on and say, hey, could you do this to me? I was just like hoping it would happen and it didn't. And so, yes, I totally identify with that. And it's helped me realize the value of like, you can just say that. You could talk about it. You can say what you want. And it doesn't ruin the mood or ruin the moment. It's like sexy to talk about that.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, the way you put it when you just said like the one doing stuff, I think that that nails it. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like the one that's like controlling the pace and like making the decisions basically, like the active one. There's like active passive. Yeah. And I think when really we see the switch of that,
00:39:24
Speaker
is, you know, we call it femdom. There's a name for it. Like, it's not just a version of regular sex. And there usually involves like latex and like household torture tools. So it's not, you don't see as much like female dominance. That's just normal quote, normal sex, vanilla sex. But with that, it's like, inherently not vanilla.
00:39:48
Speaker
I think this is so interesting hearing this just because I also, as both of you are speaking, I'm also thinking about the fact that women go down on men.
00:39:57
Speaker
in every like porn video we like every bit of porn out there right but like men don't go down on women in the same way and there's like an aversion to like clits are scary nobody knows anything about them men in that way do not know how to please women as much obviously like maybe because it's more complex and such but i think it's interesting to hear
00:40:19
Speaker
that everything you both are saying is true, that men are very much so kind of the ones doing the touching a lot of the time, yet they're not as focused on literal sexual pleasure as much as women are for men, I feel like. There's been these studies done about how often men give head to women in porn, and it's definitely not as much as women give head, I guess. I remember being surprised at how much it was. I thought it was far less.
00:40:46
Speaker
But I think it's more like women as object in terms of like a woman giving head still is to be a submissive position, but a guy giving head I still think can be happen as a dominant thing. If it's just like, I am controlling the pace of this. It's not about like asking questions. It's about
00:41:06
Speaker
I don't know like men's choices but believe me like I'm not saying that like that's the desirable role to be in like exactly like you're saying or I would think a lot of guys are like I don't want to have to make all the choices I want to be the one it's not even like submissive but just like to be able to fucking relax yeah
00:41:29
Speaker
So I loved in the episode of Slut Ever at the beginning, you talked about like, are bi men the holy grail and like, is this the perfect, you know, best of both worlds?
Challenges for Bisexual Men
00:41:39
Speaker
I guess my question is like, do you think among like, women, bi or straight women,
00:41:46
Speaker
Is that view widespread or are there still a lot of misconceptions? Have you ever dated by men? What's your personal experience? Do you actually think that way, the way the episode started? I think, yeah, this idea of our bisexual men, the holy girl of boyfriends, which is probably something that a lot of people find offensive because it's objectifying because it's viewing by men through the lens of your own sexual satisfaction or convenience.
00:42:14
Speaker
But it was supposed to be a joke. But like, I'm okay. But you guys can probably speak to this a million times more than me. But I do still think a lot of women are probably scared by it. Not all, obviously. But unfortunately, just bisexual men are like the last sort of queer frontier, or not queer frontier, but sexual orientation frontier. I don't think that bi men, I don't think we're there yet. There's not much visibility. There's not a lot of representation.
00:42:43
Speaker
And I think no one really knows, right, whether there are actually that men are less likely to be bisexual than women. Right. And I guess it's sort of like, who cares? Because no matter how many of you guys there are, you should be accepted. But I think that the reality is, is that a lot of
00:43:00
Speaker
straight women haven't been encountered it whether it's because there's truly less bisexual men around or because just like of the fact that a lot of people who are bisexual are not out right and so it feels like new unfamiliar i think people still have the fear that like it means that you're whatever like on this pathway to gay town or whatever it is that Carrie Bradshaw said she was like
00:43:25
Speaker
That's the assumption a lot of people make, yeah. Right, one stop away from gay town. Oh, right. Yeah. But I did date one bisexual guy and he, like we kind of had like a romantic friendship, like close friends, fuck buddies relationship for like years and years. And he, you know, primarily is in romantic relationships with women, but like has had sex with like many men, did have like one sort of romantic thing with a guy.
00:43:52
Speaker
and yeah it's interesting because I don't think it impacted our relationship that much sorry like this is like a boring story but I just feel like he was a really like progressive person I don't think he like identifies as queer he's just like very I just like who I like he's like very sexual I don't know he's European maybe that's why
00:44:17
Speaker
It just didn't seem like that much of a thing. But I do think that he, yeah, he wasn't macho. He wasn't like macho in bed. And I think that that is potentially why like I think that maybe like slippy sleeping with other men like strips that kind of like macho pressure. Interesting.
00:44:35
Speaker
This was a boring story, but like, was the question like, have you ever dated a bi guy? Yeah, no, and actually the idea that it wasn't a thing is actually kind of nice. I mean, that's sort of what at least partially many of us hope for. Because like, if you're in a straight relationship, it's not a thing that you're straight. It seems to be a thing for bi people most often.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you guys are hitting, having it from different experiences, right? Where it's like, Alex, for you, it's more like, it's more, do you get more like shit from gay guys about sleeping with women sometimes? I mean, I think more, like more shit in general comes from women for sure. Because like women think I'm gay, right? Women just, especially when they like go back 10 years and see like me identifying as gay, right?
00:45:26
Speaker
Whereas men will either hyper-sexualize the situation immediately and suddenly I am like, I'm a ticket to the MMF that they always wanted, all of that. Or they'll just be like, well he's actually gay but what does that matter in the context of this relationship right here?
00:45:45
Speaker
So it's quieter on that front. But I think it's just different reactions that both kind of disregard or misconstrue it equally. Right. I guess maybe I'm simplifying this. Maybe this isn't true. But it feels like what I got from your stories is that you're obviously both bi. But Alex, you come from a history of being more on the gay side. And then Rob, you have a history of being more straight. So probably the people that you date now, women you sleep with maybe interpret those things differently?
00:46:13
Speaker
I think so. But how? I think you can't help but in this this world in this patriarchy where like being queer at all is like breach of the masculine right like we are no longer perfectly masculine creatures for you to use the two of us like Rob I feel like people can kind of just disregard the idea that he could possibly be by and maybe there's some assumption that he's gay
00:46:36
Speaker
But I also think that there's no implied experience that Rob has had with men, whereas there's implied experience that I've had. Well, I think what women I've dated when I come out as bi, they'll assume I've had sexual experiences with men. Otherwise, why would I?
00:46:52
Speaker
go to the trouble of saying I'm bi because as we talked about there are so many straight identified guys who have had sex with men but they are calling themselves straight because they don't want to talk about that stuff so I think women do assume that like if I'm saying I'm bi it's an important thing to me and I've tried you know I've done that but it but it's also like
00:47:14
Speaker
I do think I get that more from women who are like afraid that I might really be gay and that there isn't a long-term future potentially in the relationship which is not true and like I don't get that so much from men. Men are always just like okay cool like whatever you've been with women I don't care.
00:47:32
Speaker
But but but it's yeah, like I haven't really had encountered the only stigma I've encountered from gay men is like They think I'm really gay and I'm not gonna ever go back to women again Whereas like women have the same fear that I'm not gonna really want to be with a woman again I'm gonna I mean, it's the same assumption and it's just
00:47:51
Speaker
gay men are okay with that and straight women are not and it is straight women like queer women aren't so much afraid of that but i think what it's something i realized which you mentioned in the how come podcast is like i used to be scared of this label and this identity because what if women don't want to date me and then i started to realize no no it's the perfect filter because there are so many people out there
00:48:19
Speaker
that why would I want to date someone who makes those kinds of assumptions? And like, it's great to just come out. And if people are cool with it, because there are women who are cool with it, those are the ones I would want to date. No, completely. Right. Yeah, it is a great filter. It's the same with like saying, you know, like talking about being slutty or whatever talking about being sexually adventurous. I mean, sometimes people take a second because I think we have such default assumptions about this stuff. Like I one of my good friends
00:48:45
Speaker
in New York as a sex worker and she you know like when she met her boyfriend they were dating and stuff and then eventually she told him that she was a sex worker and I think I mean he to his credit was like okay I have a lot of like really negative assumptions about what that means but I have literally never thought about it so like let's talk about this because like my knee-jerk reaction is that really makes me uncomfortable
00:49:08
Speaker
but I don't understand and I'm here to learn and listen and I think that like you know when it comes to bisexuality that it's fair that not everyone is like making a little podcast or whatever like you know people might not know so I think that the learning curve is steep though I think that these things might make people uncomfortable for a while and then
00:49:32
Speaker
It's not like, oh, fuck, you kick you to the curb because you don't know everything about this. But I do think like acceptance is what's key and like being willing to be open minded about it is what's key. I agree. It is. You do want to allow people to like learn stuff and come to an understanding and not just write people off completely. Because I, I remember I dated someone, I came out as bi and then I never heard from them again. And I like thought for a while that was why and I and it made me feel bad about it. And then like, later I
00:50:01
Speaker
had some amount of contact with this person again. And they told me, like, oh, they were cool with the bi thing. It was just the non-monogamy thing I was exploring wasn't cool. And I was like, oh, OK. That's another filter. And you could learn about that, too. But I have made assumptions, too, about how other people will view me. And we should just be having these open conversations.
00:50:30
Speaker
Right. Like, I don't mind you're bi, just that you're fucking annoying. You're like, she's me because I'm bi. Right. Well, I could just say that every relationship that doesn't work out, it's because they were biphobic and nice and easy for me. I wouldn't have to confront any of my negative personality traits.
00:50:51
Speaker
It's like the perfect, yeah, it's perfect. Yeah, right, it's the perfect defense. No, I have flaws.
00:51:07
Speaker
So I want to ask you about the show that you were a producer on and wrote for now, Apocalypse, which was on stars. I've only seen the pilot because I don't have stars, but I loved it and it's very sex positive and there's fluidity involved in it. And there's some discussion of labels and the Kinsey scale even in the first episode.
00:51:28
Speaker
I guess I just want to ask, what was it like writing for that show and trying to get fluid representation on television? Like, was it challenging? What were the obstacles you faced? Or what was that like? Yeah, honestly, the lead character of that show is a bisexual guy. Yeah. Well, he's yeah, mostly gay, I guess. A true Kinsey Four, I think he says. Yeah, exactly.
00:51:54
Speaker
he um well first of all making that show is such a dream we only made one season of it but it's i think it's a good season i have to say it's i made it with the filmmaker Greg Araki who i just was a fan of for so long i mean talk about pioneer in queer cinema he's made a lot of these like
00:52:14
Speaker
queer cult movies in the 90s like nowhere and mysterious skin and doom generation and a lot of movies about like gay men, a lot of bisexuality. He's a
00:52:30
Speaker
bisexual guy he's like primarily gay but he had one serious relationship with a woman and he was like this prominent kind of like cool young gay Sundance filmmaker and then um when he was like his late 30s he I think something around there had a suddenly had a relationship with a woman and I think he as like a beacon of this like queer cinema movement a lot of people really
00:52:56
Speaker
didn't like that. They were like, you're the fucking gay director, you make movies about like, gay guys with like AIDS on the run, like murdering people. And so people were pissed. And so I think that he sort of took ownership of his bisexuality and like census had a lot of bisexual male characters in his movies. And so this show is about like four friends in LA who are kind of like navigating sex in the real in relationships in like what may or may not be
00:53:26
Speaker
an alien invasion like the main character who's like the bisexuals guys like skiing aliens but you can't tell if they're real and that they're here to take over the world or if he's just really stoned and there is own hallucinations it's a very silly and sexy show but it was
00:53:42
Speaker
so fun. Just like me and Greg wrote the whole season together, just the two of us. And the one good thing about being at stars is they give us like so much freedom to do whatever we wanted. And the storylines are like not there's like a lot of exploration of namanogamy, like one of the girls is a cam girl. He the main characters like dating men, but kind of having like some sexual interactions with women. It's sort of like a smorgasbord of like slutty. And it's really like a lot of neon lighting.
00:54:10
Speaker
Yeah. I think like bi representation is very important and still lacking and I just watched that new movie Disclosure that's about trans representation in film and TV and you realize how important these things are because it's the first bi or trans person or in the past, you know, gay or lesbian person that you might meet if you don't know anyone personally is on TV.
00:54:37
Speaker
the representation matters. It's nice that they didn't limit you too much at the network because like as stuff is getting more mainstream, these kinds of storylines, I think that also comes with limitations. And so at least in the pilot it was nice to see how free you guys were to just write about it, whatever, and very like sex focused, which I thought was great.
00:54:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's a pretty silly show. It's definitely a show about young people figuring out their sexuality in a very kind of like clumsy.
00:55:09
Speaker
light way that doesn't take itself too seriously. So if that is your vibe plus aliens, you should watch it. Cool. And so now since quarantine, you have a new podcast called love and quarantine. How did that come about? And like, what's love and quarantine been like, for you?
00:55:29
Speaker
I mean, I started doing the podcast because at the beginning of this, I mean, like everyone's experience is pretty similar.
Love and Intimacy in Quarantine
00:55:35
Speaker
Suddenly my life was completely put on hold. Like I was in the process of like for a year had been in development on this pilot and we've just come to the end of this pilot development process.
00:55:47
Speaker
And then they say to us like, no one's gonna be making any decisions about anything for a while. So just sit in the uncertainty of this thing you finally thought you were gonna have closure on. And you know, a lot of the stuff I was working on just got put on hold. And I suddenly was like, oh my god, I need structure. And I also
00:56:05
Speaker
just want to talk to people about what they're going through, which is always good therapy. And I mean, I'm sure you guys know what it's like being isolated during this period, be having an outlet that feels like productive to talk to people is really a lifesaver for me. So we're just doing it's a 10 episode series. And it's really just a kind of snapshot of like love and sex and intimacy during this time and how it's changing. And it's everything from like,
00:56:30
Speaker
interviewing people who are FaceTime dating, you know, for the first time and like going on social distance dates and having like sex on FaceTime for the first time and like what that feels like and how strangely it's more vulnerable than in-person sex sometimes. And things like Zoom sex parties, Zoom sex parties. I've been to a couple of those. I went to one too. I got invited to the, did you go to like the NSFW ones?
00:56:55
Speaker
I've been to one or two NSFW ones. I joined NSFW because of your episode of Slut Ever. I saw Daniel Saint on there and I was like, oh, this is a bisexual club? I'll join. And I finally got to go in person like three or four times last year and then right before COVID.
00:57:15
Speaker
It's so crazy because, first of all, that's so awesome that you joined. And the guy who started NSFW, Daniel Saint, is a bisexual guy. And he was on the second episode of the podcast talking about NSFW and his Zoom sex party. So I went to one. Surprised? It was fun. I was like, I thought this was going to be like cheesy and ridiculous and just like people taking terms jerking off. But it was like kind of silly and playful and like everyone gets, everyone's really nice. Weirdly.
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah, and I just listened to your most recent episode about being, you know, with a partner 24 seven, which is what I, you know, I'm living with my partner and like, we have never spent this much time together. So that was a pretty interesting one for me to listen to and like figure out, you know, how do you give each other space and how do you spice sex up when you know, when you're with each other all the time. So I like that one. Thank you. Yeah, it's been really fun. I think,
00:58:09
Speaker
You know, our final one is in a couple of weeks and it's about people who got married, like it's about people whose weddings were fucked up and like whether people are waiting or whether people are getting married on Zoom. And it just, I think it's a nice time capsule. And the thing about it is that everyone is so fucking sick of talking about quarantine, of course, but it's like, it's not depressing. You want to make a podcast about quarantine that's not depressing. And it's just like funny, silly stories about like love and sex during this period of time. Very cool.
00:58:42
Speaker
I'm so glad that I got to come talk to you guys. It's so cool that you have this podcast. I'm so excited for it. I can't wait to go back and listen to the archive. It's like, I think it's so important. Yeah. Well, we think it wasn't, you know, there was a conversation that was missing and we want to start to have it. So we really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for joining us and talking about this stuff.
00:59:03
Speaker
And thank you for doing the episode of Slut Ever that inspired all this. Cause like, when we filmed that episode, I wasn't out publicly or on social media and we filmed it and I was like, okay, I'll be out by the time this airs. So it was actually really nice to sort of force myself to come out in a bigger way. This is not like a recommendation for listeners to like get onto some kind of platform. So they're forced to come out, but
00:59:30
Speaker
But it did work for Rob. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It worked for me. Just say it on TV. Yeah. Everyone come out on TV. It's great. Well, thank you again for joining us. This was really interesting and fun. And keep up the good work. Yeah. Thank you guys really so much. This is so fun. Awesome. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.