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Surviving Stage 4 Cancer and the Unimaginable Loss of a Son to Suicide with Andy Campbell
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Andy Campbell is a resilient survivor and inspirational author who has overcome numerous life-altering challenges—a victim of childhood sexual abuse and bullying, the loss of his mother at an early age, and the eventual estrangement from his father, his battle with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, and the loss of his youngest son to suicide. Despite enduring multiple surgeries, grueling chemotherapy treatments, and the tragic loss of his youngest child, he has demonstrated remarkable strength and perseverance, and developed a deep understanding of resilience and knows firsthand what it takes to overcome monumental challenges. To share with others what he has learned through his experiences, Andy has written Overcoming Life’s Toughest Setbacks: 15 Breakthrough Core Beliefs to Transform Challenges into Opportunities!. In this book readers can access actionable insights from the 15 Core Beliefs crafted to empower us to navigate through life’s labyrinth. Your journey from experiencing life’s storms to dancing in its rain unfolds in this book’s insightful examples.
Show Notes: Essential Topics
- The Power of the Physician: Andy details the need to seek a true "physician"—one with "insatiable curiosity" who partners with the patient—rather than a statistic-focused doctor.
- A New Approach to Illness: Andy deliberately chooses to "struggle against" cancer, viewing the cells as defective rather than malicious, which helped him manage anger and cortisol levels.
- The Metastasizing Pain of Suicide: He discusses the shift from feeling parental guilt to realizing he had "zero control" over his son’s decision. Andy explains the horrific truth that the pain of suicide does not end with the person but "metastasizes" onto remaining loved ones "like a cancer".
- Putting Your Helmet On: A core life philosophy: you must "put your helmet on before you need it" by engaging in health, mental health, and physical care before crisis hits.
- Irreplaceable Threads: Andy emphasizes that every human is an "irreplaceable thread in the fabric of the universe" and encourages listeners to struggle to stay alive and leave an aspirational legacy.
- The 15 Core Beliefs: These phrases act as the "rope bridge" that connects a person from complete devastation back to making slow progress.
- Final Wisdom: "Do not take out of the creator’s hands the ability to move the universe in your favor".
To find out more information about working with Kendra Rinaldi https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/event-details/lets-connect-15-minute-discovery-call
To be a guest on the podcast https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/book-online
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. I'm your host, Kendra Rinaldi. This is a space to explore the full spectrum of grief, from the kind that comes with death to the kind that shows up in life's many transitions. Through stories and conversations, we remind each other that we're not alone.
00:00:27
Speaker
Your journey matters, and here we're figuring it out together. Let's dive right in to today's episode.
00:00:47
Speaker
Let's start with a quick disclaimer. This podcast includes personal stories and perspectives on topics like grief, health, and mental wellness. The views expressed by guests are their own and may reflect individual experiences that are not meant as medical advice.
00:01:05
Speaker
As the host, I hold space for diverse voices, but that does not mean I endorse every viewpoint shared. Please listen with care and take what resonates with you.
Introducing Andy Campbell
00:01:20
Speaker
Today's guest is Andy Campbell. He is a survivor, an author, and a beacon of resilience. He has survived childhood trauma, family loss, cancer, and the unimaginable grief of losing a child to suicide. And we will be talking a lot today, particularly about his book, Overcoming Life's Toughest Setbacks.
00:01:46
Speaker
And we can see how these ah life experiences definitely led you to writing this book. But I am just really curious to get to meet you.
Andy's Family Background and Cancer Diagnosis
00:01:57
Speaker
So welcome, Andy.
00:01:59
Speaker
Thank you. it's ah It's great to be here. Looking forward to the conversation. I am too. And so we I normally start just getting to know the guests. So tell me, where did you grow up and where do you live now?
00:02:12
Speaker
Well, I was ah was born in South Alabama into a oh what I think would be considered a relatively poor family, ah farmer wrote you know farmers. And my parents ah decided that was not the lifestyle they wanted. So they worked hard to get out of that. And you know it um that meant I grew up a lot on my own. They both worked a lot.
00:02:38
Speaker
And my father traveled a tremendous amount. And I think, you know, when you grow up a lot on your own, ah you know, it's both an opportunity for adventure and learning. And it's also an opportunity for, you know, things to not go as well as they could have, you know, had adults been around.
00:03:01
Speaker
And so I experienced, you know, a lot of both. Yeah. yeah So then, you know, you progress, you survive. I lost my mother when I was, She was diagnosed. She was very young. She was diagnosed at 43.
00:03:15
Speaker
All four were sisters. I think, let's see, there were five children, four sisters, three died before they were ah were out of their 50s from breast cancer.
00:03:25
Speaker
ah The fourth one was diagnosed, had a double mastectomy and did live longer. Um, and so i always kind of thought that I would have cancer, you know, I don't know why, but it was just one of those things in my mind. It's like, you know, I know enough about genetics to know this is probably not normal to have.
00:03:41
Speaker
And then my grandmother, my mother's mother died from breast cancer, you know? So it's like, you know, it's like a, there seems to be a trend going on here. And watched her, I watched uh,
00:03:53
Speaker
struggled with cancer over 11 years. She had all the ups and downs. She got to remission twice, but before they said you were in remission on her five year hundred fifth year anniversary twice, the cancer was found again.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then ah the second time she lived about a ah year after that. So I watched i watch someone who struggled with grace and dignity and they had meaning in their life.
00:04:17
Speaker
And ah they showed me ah she showed me how to live by watching her struggle against death. If that makes any sense, right? you see You see, characteristics that they're not easy, easily replicable, you know, but they're aspirational.
00:04:38
Speaker
So she was aspirational to me, got married, had four children, you know, never really dealt with any of the stuff that happened to me as a child, uh, you know, or the things that happened to me growing up.
00:04:49
Speaker
And, um, you know Along the way, i was 53 years old. but the year My mother was diagnosed at 42. She died at 53. For some reason, I had it in my mind that at 53, would die.
Andy's Holistic Cancer Survival Strategy
00:05:04
Speaker
and I don't know why that was. you know it's just but It wasn't like I was i was you know putting it out into the universe. It wasn't like I was like i was believing it or visualizing in some way that you know I was expecting to. It was just this nagging thing in the back of my head that 53 was going to be It was going to be a turning point.
00:05:23
Speaker
And, and it was in August of the year I turned 53. I just turned 53 about a month before I was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer.
00:05:35
Speaker
And when I was, while I was in treatment two years After that, and almost three years, but ah to yeah, not quite three years after that, my youngest son took his own life.
00:05:47
Speaker
And so it's been a ah roller coaster, mostly good, mostly a good life. But there have been some, you know, the the challenges have been significant.
00:06:01
Speaker
Yes. Wow. That is a lot. And right before we started recording, I was just like, wait, Andy, I need to understand this because I was just sharing with Andy, very those the listeners, that my mom died of pancreatic cancer. And when she got her diagnosis, we were just kind of like, oh, well, like it was almost a given that it was not survivable almost. So it's very rare.
00:06:27
Speaker
Did your doctor say... about how how what percentage of people usually do survive ah that ah to stage four pancreatic cancer? like is it Were they just in shock?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, i'm not i mean I would say i am i amm an anomaly. yeah But I think, and i one of the parts of my website, I discussed this. i I have become a firm believer that There are two types of professionals in every profession.
00:06:57
Speaker
And ah what' what distinguishes them is their level of insatiable curiosity, right? Like they cannot get enough information. They don't believe, they believe little of what they see or read and they just constantly, they they are very competitive. Remain curious, yeah. that's just every remain But they never stop learning, right? And so- I had, and so when it comes to the medical profession, I see that there, in my view is there are physicians and then there are doctors.
00:07:31
Speaker
There's way too many doctors and way too few physicians. So the doctors I went to gave me stats like Andy, um you know, we'll throw at it what we can, but this is really dire yeah diagnosis. And so, you know, we're not telling you right now that you need to,
00:07:50
Speaker
you know, but you should plan, you should plan. This is, you know, this, this difficult ah diagnosis and, you know, to make it, I think at that point to make it three years was like 5%, you know, total population was like 5%.
00:08:07
Speaker
and Make it five years was like 3% or 1%, something like that. it's Five years. from like Then I had my physician who I'm still very close to today.
00:08:18
Speaker
and He said, look, I think with your family history, I think you have a genetic mutation. There's a lot of things that have come around in the last five years at that time, five years before.
00:08:30
Speaker
And he said, ah you're going to hear a lot about statistics, but let's run back through the statistics. Everything you hear about your opportunity, your survival rate for this this diagnosis is all historical. It's all based on history and it's a total population.
00:08:48
Speaker
First, things have come forward. So we have different insights now that we didn't have over the lifespan of that population statistical total. He said, secondly, the way statistics work is you as an individual have a 50-50 shot.
00:09:02
Speaker
You make it or you don't. So you don't have a 3% chance to make it five years. You have a 50% chance to make it five years. And so I got a plan. And if you if you want to kind of join with me, I'll join with you and let's go execute a plan and we'll take it a week at a time. And our first goal is make it six months.
00:09:22
Speaker
We make it six months. We'll look at what we got to do to make it a year. We get to a year. We'll look at three years. We get to three years. We'll look at five years. We get five years. We'll make, you know, we'll just take this thing.
00:09:34
Speaker
in bite-sized pieces bit size pieces he says yes and you know and so he set me up on a on a protocol i did everything that he told me to do everything suggested um And it was a lot.
00:09:46
Speaker
I still do a lot. A lot of changes in your nutrition and a lot of changes in your lifestyle that include all that. Oh, yeah yeah. Because that was one of the things that really shocked me and still does, that a lot of times when you go to the hospital, let's say you're hospitalized, even just eating the hospital food and you're kind of like, what? terrible.
00:10:08
Speaker
right? How are they giving me this if I just had this procedure? Like, or how ah for my mom, they were like, yeah, she, before but they'd had, they, she had had a ah what is it called? ah a stent.
00:10:20
Speaker
And they, she, they needed her to gain some weight in order if by chance she could have a Whipple. And they're like, make sure she gains some weight. Have the nurse was like, make sure she eats ice cream, something that's gonna, and I'm looking, I'm like, ice cream, like,
00:10:36
Speaker
I have her whatever she wants to eat. Just have her eat. We just the focus. So it's just very mind boggling. So what kind of things did that he shift? And we're going of course, this conversation, by the way, for the listeners is going to go into a lot of other topics, too. So but what kind of things did he make you shift in your lifestyle that you still hold on to
Lifestyle Changes and Resilience
00:10:56
Speaker
today?
00:10:57
Speaker
Well, I would say, um like I said, you got to have a physician and then the physician needs to have a patient that want to be that wants to that wants to stay alive and that is willing to do some things that might seem a little odd or out there.
00:11:13
Speaker
Okay. So one of the first things that came to me, he said, look, we, you know, he's always got something. the First thing was like some types of mushrooms. And then it was like, we need to, you know, there's, there's a lot of data on things like, um,
00:11:27
Speaker
curcumin, anti-inflammatory directly, you know you know, related to human studies, berberine using quercetin in conjunction with zinc.
00:11:42
Speaker
there's ah you know I take probably 40 supplements a day on label, off label medications plus supplements. I take probably 40 different capsules and pills and powders a day. um But are what we what we jointly developed, what what but eventually kind of came out of all our discussions around this was, and by the way, when I was first diagnosed, I was a puddle of tears.
00:12:04
Speaker
I mean, I'm 53 years old. I've got four children. I've got a wife. I'm the sole provider financially. My wife stayed home and took care of all the children. I had decent life insurance, but this is not, at 53, this is not what you're planning for.
00:12:17
Speaker
And ah So, I mean, I fell apart, you know, and and it took a few days, you know, and then we got back together and he's like, okay, you know, if you're if you're ready, you know, we need to start, right? We need to start figuring this out.
00:12:31
Speaker
And so what what eventually formed up out of those conversations was a three-pronged strategy. One, we would focus on my energy because you got to have energy to stay in the struggle, right? And that would be mental energy, spiritual energy, emotional energy, physical energy. So it was, it was you know, finding Down to examining and finding the correct mixture for vitamin B12, not just any B12, but which one was which one did I respond to which, you know, and so we would we would look at all these things. So I did.
00:13:09
Speaker
He called me one day because I know this is going to kind of be out there. ah But there's a lot of studies now that show guided imagery will help you get through the chemotherapy. They read off all that. You can look it up there. But doing guided imagery helps a lot with convincing your mind to do things, like to show body to do things, to flush toxins. and So I did guided imagery every week, specifically around...
00:13:31
Speaker
ah dealing with the toxic, the the toxics, the toxins from the chemotherapy. And because the chemotherapy that a lot of times, a lot of people I know, and so what I was on was called Fulfuranox. And it's basically three chemotherapies because they don't have, you know, it's like, just throw the kitchen sink at it, you know, like throw everything at it.
00:13:51
Speaker
And it's toxic and it leaves a lot of side effects. And
00:13:58
Speaker
ah So I did, I did got it. Then he came to me and he said, look, there's there's a lot of studies out here on ah the, the beneficial impact to cancer and going through treatments of acupuncture.
00:14:10
Speaker
And so I started doing acupuncture every week. um I did Reiki. I did, So I did all the supplements that I could get my hands on for energy. i The second part of, so energy was one, got to stay in the struggle.
00:14:22
Speaker
And, you know, because your body's under attack. Yeah. Was mitochondrial health within that, like anything that was going to feed the mitochondria within that energy? Yeah. All of that. Yeah.
00:14:32
Speaker
All of that. Right. So it's physical energy, spiritual energy, mental energy, like, you know, just all those things, anything that that we could put together that would help my body resist the energy. Cause you know, cancer only does two things. These defective cells only do two things. They're actually not, you know, I gave up like, you know, like the anger against cancer, of those things. These are just cells that have lost their way.
00:14:58
Speaker
That's all. They, they, they only know how to do two things. They consume energy and they replicate. They don't realize it's not, it's not, they're not doing intentionally maishious malicious things.
00:15:09
Speaker
In their world, they think they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do. It's just by their replication uncontrolled, they kill you. And so, you know, ah that that was actually one of my things was to come to terms with that. I didn't actually hate the cancer.
00:15:24
Speaker
It's just, you know, we have to part ways. we been We can't. You don't understand what you're doing to me. I don't really have any animosity against you, but we've got to separate. I absolutely love what you're saying because the moment we also give it that kind of energy towards it and it's that anger, well, that's not helping us either in that process, right? If somebody is going through that, because that is also feeding the cortisol levels. and Like there's just so much. So by releasing that, it completely also shifted your whole way of being by not holding on to that anger.
00:15:58
Speaker
Right. Well, you know, ah you'll you'll notice that I don't, I work diligently not to use the word fight when I say cancer. I work to say struggle against cancer because I don't, I don't think it's like, it's not like a barroom bra where, you know, somebody who's a fit, it you know, I don't know. It just, to me that, that takes on a different, um,
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the cancer is a part of Yeah. And we and we we all have actually defective cells. Our bodies, you know, usually take care of those things and clean them up. It's one of the reasons why I started doing a lot of fasting.
00:16:33
Speaker
Just one second. When you're touching the... Yes, I know. I just realized I forgot. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. Go ahead. kind Yeah, when you're do a you did a lot of cleansing and detoxing. Yeah, a lot of fasting.
00:16:46
Speaker
Fasting, mm-hmm. And the you know the oncologists weren't happy about it. They're like, Andy, you got to put on... weight and you got to, you know, well, actually i didn't need to put on weight. I was so kind of a rare circumstance where I never lost weight going through chemotherapy.
00:16:58
Speaker
What kept me from being nauseated and vomiting was I would have to eat. If I could eat, then that for some reason, it felt like it was it would kind of, I know this is not medical, but it would kind of soak up the chemotherapy, right? Like it would help keep it so just from just sitting in my stomach and my intestines. But so we did ah we did a lot of different things. So the first prong of the strategy was energy.
00:17:25
Speaker
Second prong of the strategy was weaken the cancer cells, even if just one quarter of 1%, but weaken them and attack them based on their need to replicate and their need to consume energy.
00:17:40
Speaker
So the diet part came in, it's like, okay, well let's reduce the glucose levels as much as possible. And I was, I was insulin resistant and I was, you know, uh, I worked out a lot. i was I was larger than I am today. I was i think I'm like 225 today. I was about 250 pounds.
00:17:58
Speaker
I lifted weights all the time. I was you know and i wasn't like wasn't obese. I was just you know carried a lot of muscle, and but I still had like high sugar levels. and so We spent a lot of time getting the glucose under a control and then all the supplements. and the you know i do off-label medications and on-label medications, but All of those stuff, like if you went to the website and you saw the list of all of that, almost all of that is to is directed at making my body an inhospitable place for these defective cells and to weaken them just a little bit. But if I can stack...
00:18:36
Speaker
you know, 1% degradation on 30 different vectors, then I've got a 30% degradation in the cancer cells ability to consume and replicate. So, you know, one energy to make it an inhospitable place for the cancer cells. And then three,
00:18:54
Speaker
The first two were really to drive the third ones, do the treatments, right? You needed the energy to stay in the treatments because they're difficult. ah you need You need to weaken the cancer cells. So the chemotherapy, the immunotherapy, I do a thing called a PARP inhibitor
Navigating the Medical System
00:19:08
Speaker
today.
00:19:08
Speaker
Like all these things, my my view was that, you know, I wanted to have the energy to go long-term and stay in the struggle. I wanted to have, i wanted to weaken the cancer cells so that would help the more standard of care or even the the trial medications that I ended up on.
00:19:26
Speaker
I wanted to give them a better shot at killing or terminating the cancer cells. And so that that became the three-pronged strategy. And I still basically today, every day, implement that same strategy that, you know,
00:19:40
Speaker
that I started seven years ago. That is incredible. And I just am so grateful that you found a physician that had this well-rounded approach and really a functional approach to medicine too, because he was really looking at every single aspect, not just one lane.
00:20:00
Speaker
it's what he want He's one in a million, but you do find, I do believe that, you know, and So a person that I'm associated with at work, wife was diagnosed with, um I don't think it's rare, but an uncommon cancer.
00:20:18
Speaker
And, you know, i told I told him, I said, look, what would I do different? Okay, first I would take a deep breath. Okay. You're going to need a couple of weeks, a week or so to sort out the emotion.
00:20:29
Speaker
She's about the same age I am, I think, or was when I was diagnosed, I think. And, and it's like, okay, so this is going to, this is going to set you back mentally. You just need to accept that, but you have time, take a deep breath.
00:20:42
Speaker
I said, then you start looking for the places around the country that have dedicated practices to this type of cancer. You have people that are knowledgeable. I said, but when you get to those people, the the only people who are absolutely 100% in your camp is your wife and you and maybe a physician if you find one.
00:21:09
Speaker
And I'm blessed that my physician is like, Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, ah he takes it very personal. Like he's, you know we, we stay in contact all the time. he's like, tell me what's going on like But the point is that my, or my point to this person was,
00:21:27
Speaker
You don't don't accept less than a physician. Don't accept less than a physician. Your relationship with your physician. You want somebody that is curious, someone that will tell you, yes, I want you to do all you can to help me do all I can.
00:21:43
Speaker
Right. You know, it's like it's a partnership. And so that that's that's some advice that I would share with others is, you know, when you're diagnosed ah with a difficult disease, and this applies to a lot of things outside of just cancer.
00:21:56
Speaker
But, you know, I would suggest that you take a deep breath and then decide a plan of action and only include in your plan of action as much as possible.
00:22:09
Speaker
physicians Now i've got I've got doctors that I work with and you know not every oncologist, you got to live with what you get. Although my oncologist at the University of Pennsylvania is a true physician and my general physician is a true physician.
00:22:24
Speaker
um I've been blessed to find and be associated with those people. But if I were starting over today and I didn't have one, I would be very selective. i think that I just think there's too many doctors and not enough physicians.
Coping with the Loss of a Child
00:22:35
Speaker
And there's too many doctors who walk around telling you that they know everything. And the doctor that tells me he knows everything is the doctor I will not do business with. Right? Like, i like yeah. yeah Wow. Thank you for sharing all that journey.
00:22:51
Speaker
Hi, I just had to come on and just kind of interrupt right now this episode that you're hearing. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that you guys are listening to this conversation. And every single time i hear a guest, there's something new that I learn and something else that ends up showing up within me that I realize I still have to work on.
00:23:12
Speaker
And if by chance, as you're listening to this conversation, you're feeling the same, that there's parts of you that are being stirred up and you are navigating a life transition right now that feels just heavy and stressful and just layered with grief.
00:23:26
Speaker
I want you to know that you do not have to do it alone. I invite you to connect with me for a free 15 minute discovery call and we'll explore what's coming up for you and see if working together feels like the right fit. Just check the show notes below for my email and reach out for details.
00:23:46
Speaker
I'd really love to support you in integrating these transitions with more ease and clarity. Can't wait to hear back from you. Okay, let's keep on listening to the episode.
00:24:04
Speaker
And so here you are two years in to your cancer treatment and you're you then are faced with this other major aspect of grief because you already had to also have be in the mental state to be able to struggle with the cancer and treat it.
00:24:21
Speaker
And then your youngest son, well how old was he and what was your son's name, if you don't mind share? No, his name is Heston Walker Campbell. he was 18 years old He was about to turn 19. As a matter of fact, yesterday, the date of this recording yesterday was his birthday.
00:24:37
Speaker
<unk> Right now we're recording on September 10th, which is known to be suicide awareness month. is And so September 9th was his birthday. ah so that yeah and And I still speak about him in present tense. I mean, we we have four children.
00:24:53
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. He is one of our four children. This is his birthday. That is his name. You know, I mean, it's... So, yeah, it was... That was an unimaginably difficult time. It still is. My wife just had a very difficult week coming up on his birthday this year. the s Last year it was difficult, but not as difficult as this year. You never know when it's going to show up or how it's going to show up, but it's, um yeah, I think.
00:25:23
Speaker
My wife went through after my son's suicide. ah She went into a very, they were very close. very He was the youngest. She had the most time to spend with him.
00:25:35
Speaker
She had wanted to have, ah you know, when when we had the the two girls first and then we had a boy, she was like, that i want ah I want another boy. That's what I want. So we'll have two and two.
00:25:47
Speaker
and And we got another boy. And then, so they were they were extremely close. And he had promised her, we had dealt with this for nine years. He told us when he was nine years old that he, he didn't understand why people didn't just, you know, in their lives because, you know, it was extremely logical way older than his years.
00:26:07
Speaker
Um, and so, he but he had promised his mother that he would never, never take a final act without giving her a chance to talk him out of it to, you know, that he would sit down with her and talk to her.
00:26:19
Speaker
Um, But in this case he didn't. And so there was a lot, I mean, she dealt with a lot, a lot. And she came to a place, a very dark, desperate place.
00:26:31
Speaker
And I just happened to call her one day and say, i don't have a good feeling about where you are right now. And she didn't say it directly, but I knew that she was thinking, she was seriously considering ending her own life.
00:26:45
Speaker
Like the pain of losing her son was just, just too much.
00:26:51
Speaker
And we talked and i got our physician on the phone who had been close to my son.
00:26:59
Speaker
And, you know, saw him, took a direct interest. and He was devastated when he took his own life. He he had seen him in the office just 10 days before.
00:27:10
Speaker
um But, you know, people who are in that mental state don't tell you what's really going on. You know, they tell you what they want you to know. yeah and my And my wife just, ah but we were able to pull her back from the edge. So the insights that I have into what someone's thinking at that moment really come from her, her experiences and explaining to me what she thinks Heston was seeing at that moment.
00:27:37
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. I, I just ah saw today what one of my guests, Reshma, she, her husband died by suicide and this aspect of sometimes feeling like we could have prevented it It really is.
00:27:55
Speaker
it really is not like when they, when someone that has already made that decision is there, there really is you not much anyone can do around to do right to, to stop. So the, you know, like, I don't know. I, it's like the, the guilt is going to be there for everyone around. Cause it's ah normal to feel that in your grief.
00:28:18
Speaker
But the reality is there's really little, you can, can do to prevent someone that already has their mind set on doing it. and I would say there's nothing you can do. Yeah. And
Therapy Insights and Realizations
00:28:31
Speaker
I struggled with that.
00:28:33
Speaker
and I had another just wonderful human being had two, we had two therapists that were right in the beginning that were just wonderful people. One was, you know, a child loss, grief person. And we we met with her for several, for a few months after this happened and she got us through that.
00:28:54
Speaker
And then of course you're dealing with the other three children, the remaining children and all that they're dealing with. And, um, which was, unimaginably difficult for them, but also just watching as a parent, you know, there's nothing you can do about it. Like the, you know, this is just the way things will be. And, but the, the therapist who ended up helping me through emdr told me at one point I was telling her, you know, if only I had known this information sooner, if only I had done this, if only i had done this other thing.
00:29:30
Speaker
And she asked me, she she said, well, so why do you think this is not the best outcome of a very bad outcome? Why do you think that it would be better.
00:29:41
Speaker
And I said, well, if I had known this and if I had done this and if it, and she said, well, all those things, he would have had to do something different, right? And I said, well, yeah, but you're not good. She goes, Andy, you don't understand. You have zero control.
00:29:55
Speaker
And and had you done anything different, it could have been worse. And I said, well, what could be worse than this? And she goes, well, let's see. He's 18.
00:30:06
Speaker
He was depressed. He was obviously angry enough that he took his own life. What if he had taken somebody else with him? What if he had, you know, what if he had been unsuccessful and was just in a vegetative state for the rest of his life?
00:30:18
Speaker
What if you she went through and I was like, okay, you can stop. You can stop. And she's like, all I'm working to communicate to you is that you have no idea what all the permutations of outcomes could possibly be. You just know the outcome that you have and you think you had some control over ah this outcome.
00:30:41
Speaker
And through those conversations and a lot of work, I came to the place of realizing that I had not, I really felt like my wife, Heston's mother and I had kept him alive.
00:30:57
Speaker
And I came to a place of realizing that was all a facade. We had never kept him alive. Nothing we did kept him alive. He was making a choice every day, not to kill himself.
00:31:13
Speaker
And it somehow in that small shift of thinking, the burden went from us to him. And so on that day, he decided not to stay alive.
00:31:28
Speaker
And if that's the case, if that was his decision, then there is nothing I could have done. a matter of fact, for nine years, I had never done anything to keep him alive. every day because every day every moment of every day, he had the means to end his life.
00:31:43
Speaker
And it, and he was the one who wasn't ending his life. Now, maybe I made, you know, ah you know, I could give the appearance to him that things would get better. or We would have arguments and discussions and I would grasp on and hold on as hard as I could. And and we had some very difficult times. i had to have him committed for three days one time because of his, because of, you know, we were concerned that he was going to hurt himself.
00:32:06
Speaker
Um, But at the end of it all, I came to realize that I had never done anything to keep him alive. I may have just kind of contributed to an environment where that day he decided not to kill himself.
00:32:22
Speaker
And I don't know if that makes sense, but a to me, the burden of staying alive was flipped onto him. And I would just say to other parents, yeah, you have never kept your child alive.
00:32:35
Speaker
You have it. They have made a decision not to take their own life, not to end it. I got chills when you said that basically for all those nine years that he had been already struggling and thinking of that, that he was making that choice not to. I got chills thinking of how much energy that must have taken from this child to to withhold these desires, right? Like how much, how exhausted he must have been every day that he actually was able to withhold from not taking that urge, right? Like at every single.
00:33:13
Speaker
It does. Yeah. No, you start from that perspective, from that point of view, then I think now my wife is not here. Okay. Okay.
00:33:26
Speaker
yeah Four years. I think this this would be his fifth birthday. we just ah had He died in early June, on the 7th of June. So you know we bet four suicide anniversaries this is his fifth birthday.
00:33:43
Speaker
um She's not really yet in a forgiving place. okay so you know As one can imagine with a mother, she still holds some animosity for heaven. is different.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um For me, he and I have had a number of conversations. At least I have a conversation. And i came to the place where I was like, you know, i can't.
00:34:13
Speaker
I'm going to forgive you for what you've done. i can't hold this against you. And one of the factors in that was. Because I honestly have no idea how exhausted he must have been from deciding every day not to take his own life.
00:34:28
Speaker
And just, you know, from his point of view. Now, were there a number of things that he could have done differently? A hundred percent. Were there are a number of but ah ah relationships he could have built? it were Were there...
00:34:39
Speaker
Was there a way that he could have decided, but he had, but we gave him all those opportunities. So that's where, like, as a parent, and I'm like, look, I gave you access to ah therapist, psychiatrist, supplements, medication. Like we,
00:34:54
Speaker
At some point, he had to decide. And, you know, it's funny. One of the things we knew that a number of members of our family have a genetic mutation where we don't process and B vitamins and and ultimately don't process. Methylated. Methylated. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:35:12
Speaker
And so it affects, you know, it affects neurotransmitters and that kind of stuff. and And he came to us about two weeks before he took his life and was like, hey, I really need to get back on these supplements. feel like I need to get back on it.
00:35:24
Speaker
the I think at that point that was too late, you know, like he had made too many other decisions. And so a lot of the therapies that you would use take time. And then for whatever reason that day, something had happened at, you know, through where he was working ah through just his daily life with us, but something happened that would make no sense to us.
00:35:50
Speaker
Right? Like it would be like, why would that be true? But at some point he came to a place where he's like, I'm exhausted. I'm done with this. And so, yeah, I think, i think we like to believe that as parents, somehow we have a level of control.
00:36:08
Speaker
but we don't have a level of control. Even as a child, the only level of control we have is some guidance, but they make a choice as to whether or not to listen to us. They make a choice as to not run out in the street in front of cars because we tell them don't do that or you know do this, not that.
00:36:23
Speaker
They're making a choice every day. They make choices to pay attention to us, to listen to us, to follow guidance. Well, this is no different. At least that's the point. That's the place I came to.
Purpose and Legacy
00:36:33
Speaker
We gave him guidance and opportunity and he made a different decision.
00:36:37
Speaker
Well, it's it's it's similar to what you were even just saying before. You can have a physician and a physician can tell the patient everything, but the patient has to then take take that and do it, right? With here as well, it's like if you already know that this is this is how much it's going to take for you to be able to survive pancreatic cancer, like in your case, and you're taking all that, for someone that already knows that they have...
00:37:03
Speaker
the the, you know, depression and so forth, if they really want to live, they are, you know, they would then do all of the things all the time. Not just the day you, um like, like when my kids just asked me for the vitamin C the day they get the cold or the zinc or whatever. I'm like, okay, well, you guys, and you know, it's not, it's not gonna, you You want to work out things that way. Right. And in our life, we have to look at it that way. It's where we we have to do things every day that are just um how do you call it? Little by little compiled to the whole, not just well all of a sudden. and
00:37:43
Speaker
Wow. Well, I learned that lesson. So I rode a motorcycle and in the state I live in, helmets are not required. And, but I always, you know, always wore a helmet and one day I crashed. It was the last time I rode because my wife was like, we have four Saul children. You'll never get on a motorcycle again. As long as as long as you have to provide and we need your life insurance.
00:38:08
Speaker
And this was before I got diagnosed cancer. ah But what I realized in that moment, so when, you know, the ambulance came and I i had slid across like three lanes of traffic, it's, we'll get into the whole description, but ah the top of my helmet was basically gone. wore set of goggles, the goggles had basically gone, but my my head and face were intact. I had some other injuries.
00:38:34
Speaker
And when I got in the ambulance, uh, the tech said, man, if you hadn't had a helmet, you'd be at the seventh floor of the medical university. And that's where they said, you know, like the severe head traumas.
00:38:47
Speaker
It's like, you'd be on the seventh floor right now. And I thought in that moment, and it applies, I think across so many parts, but whether it's personal relationships, and you know, how you take care of your health, mental health, ah business, this kind of,
00:39:06
Speaker
What I think is ah kind of a true visualization of this came to me, which was you have to put your helmet on before you need it, because when you need it, there's no time to put it on.
00:39:20
Speaker
And I think what a lot of us do is we wait until there is a crash, like in but you can't put your helmet on then it's too late. So yes, it's uncomfortable. No, it may not feel you may not feel metaphorically the breeze in your hair and you may not be enjoying the sun on your face.
00:39:39
Speaker
But when you need it, it has to be there before you need it. And I think that's ah the same thing I would say about these things around mental health. You have to do these things before you need them.
00:39:51
Speaker
Because when you need them, it's too late. My wife described it as her experience was she was standing on the edge of a dark tunnel. And that dark tunnel was very seductive. It spoke to her in a language that and in a tone of voice that, you know, it was all comforting.
00:40:09
Speaker
Life will be better. All the pain will be gone. And, you know, she said it it it drew her toward this dark tunnel. And she said, I realized that Heston for all these years had had one foot in the tunnel and one foot out.
00:40:24
Speaker
And every day the struggle was it was being seductive and saying, but Heston, Oh, this pain will go away. They'll be fine. Everybody will be better off without you. She said it would it spoke to me. It was like I was having this conversation with this dark thing, but it wasn't a fearful, dark thing. it was seductive. It presented itself as the answer to all my questions.
00:40:46
Speaker
And I would say, well, what about your other three remaining children? What about me? What about your friends? And she said in that moment, It's not telling you to think about all these other things. It's telling you everyone will be fine. Everyone will be fine.
00:40:59
Speaker
And the pain will go away. And what I realized, I think what ah what ah what I realized in that moment was for the person who takes their life, the pain ends for them.
00:41:12
Speaker
But the pain doesn't actually go with them. The pain stays right here with the rest of us. And the pain, it it's like it is like a cancer.
00:41:22
Speaker
That's why I think you kind of have to fight suicide the same way that you would struggle against cancer, right? You have to struggle against suicide the same way you struggle against cancer. And because that pain, once it is no longer attached to that person, and even though we were all in a painful situation being, you know, with his struggle, once it detaches, he detaches from that pain.
00:41:47
Speaker
then that pain is free to go wherever it wants to go. And like a cancer, it will metastasize onto the people who loved him. And then it will, mutat then it will grow and it will get to the people who just knew him.
00:42:01
Speaker
And then eventually it will spread out to people who never knew him, but they will hear the story or that, or there will be something missing in the universe. And in that moment that dark force is telling you, i think that everything will be okay. Everything will be better. I think people who, you know, I've heard stories of, and I know personally people who got their diagnosis for cancer and they put a little effort in and they're like, you know what? I'm not going to win this battle. i don't want to put up all this ah effort and then die anyway. And everybody will be better off without me. You know, you can just go on and marry another, you'll get another wife. The children will have another
00:42:38
Speaker
have another mother. All that's a lie. That's just that dark force. the The pain ah what you're whatever you're going through does not go with you when you die.
00:42:49
Speaker
It detaches from You have detached from it. And so now it's free to go wherever it needs to go. I think the better thing is to stay here, confront the pain, confront.
00:43:02
Speaker
Look, we're all going to die. The number one cause of death in the entire history of humanity is not cancer. It's not heart disease. It's not, it's birth.
00:43:15
Speaker
Birth is a number one cause of death. We're all going to die. Now it's a matter of how we die because that matters to future generations. That's what teaches them how to live. I know that from own mother's experience.
00:43:27
Speaker
And I believe I've taught my children and people around me, you know, die a certain way. If you haven't read the book, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, it is one of my absolute favorites, although it's a very difficult read, especially the first half, but it is is one of my absolute favorites. And so we're all going to die.
00:43:50
Speaker
So we should live and die with meaning because that matters to future generations. And why not struggle to stay alive with every ounce of our being until our body can no longer support this soul that lives inside of us?
00:44:06
Speaker
Why not do that? Because it's not like if you put the effort in, it's like a failure. ah You're going to die. it's It's just a matter of timing now. So put the effort in. Stay in the game.
00:44:17
Speaker
And put all you have of your being into delaying the inevitable, because that's all we're doing, delaying the inevitable as long as possible. I don't understand. it's It's hard for me to...
00:44:30
Speaker
I know I've had moments where it's just not worth it. Like, I just don't think I can keep going. Like, it's just too hard. My body's given way. I'm going to die. well and And I had a moment like that. We won't have time today to talk about it but I had a moment like that. And, and then my wife had to step in and she's like, no, this is where we're going. And she kind of carried me in that moment to the next phase when I had to pick the ball up again and, and, and, and own the responsibility.
00:44:55
Speaker
But why not?
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I guess the kind the the inverse of that is why even struggle, which was Heston's point of view, why even struggle if you're going to die? And you know my take on it is no one else in the universe can replace you.
00:45:16
Speaker
You, yeah. No one can replace you. There will be, if I die, even if my wife found a second husband, he will not be me. My fight my children will not have me.
00:45:28
Speaker
My friends will not have me. My place in the universe, me is just a single thread in the fabric of the universe. I am here for some reason, which is still not tremendously clear to me.
00:45:40
Speaker
And I don't know why I'm alive versus your mother has passed away. I have no clarity on that. And I'm not like, that's why I don't go around telling people do these things. And you're just, I don't know.
00:45:51
Speaker
Right. um
00:45:54
Speaker
But every human
00:45:58
Speaker
is an irreplaceable thread in the fabric of the universe. you So how you live knowing that we're all going to die, like it is it is supremely important to all the humans that come after us that they have examples
00:46:21
Speaker
and aspirational models to follow. And if you quit, you're leaving You're leaving that behind. That's just the way I look at it.
00:46:32
Speaker
You're just leaving behind the way to deal with these problems is you quit. To me, that's what suicide is. And in that moment, too, in whether it's that or giving up on...
00:46:43
Speaker
on trying to be healthier in our day-to-day, the choices that we make day-to-day, it's as if we're not only giving up on ourselves, we're giving up on everybody else that loves us if we don't even take care of ourselves. I remember for me, like when I started...
00:47:00
Speaker
to learn more about health and wellness and really take care of myself, it was not for me. It was really, well, partly, but it was really thinking of my children. I'm like, I don't want my children to feel that I'm a burden as I start aging and not being the best version of myself and my health if I could have done something to to take care of this body while I'm here.
00:47:24
Speaker
And that's the example you set to them, When they have children and they reach your age and they do, then they will. My wife has a saying. i love this thing. I don't know where she came up with it where she heard it, but she says it all the time.
00:47:36
Speaker
ah She says, i'd I would rather be the oldest person in the gym than the youngest person at the nursing home. And, you know, so that what is, what does it take to do that?
Writing Process and Life Lessons
00:47:46
Speaker
You know, like in you, and so, yeah, I, I think, look, I think there's two elements to it.
00:47:52
Speaker
Um, to this, this view one is, uh, One is you're leaving a legacy. Choose your legacy.
00:48:04
Speaker
My son left the legacy of when you get too exhausted in your own life, avoid the the the decisions and then and and then honestly just avoid all the ramifications of your suicide because that's what he said. He's avoided all the ramifications the suicide. We're all left with all the ramifications of the suicide.
00:48:24
Speaker
And And I don't think like some, you know, I've talked to some people who consider suicide and they're like, yeah, part of it was I wanted these people to feel the loss. I would, you know, like I wanted to, you know, kind of, it's like, yeah, they're not responsible for you staying alive or ending your life. You're responsible for that. You're making a choice to stay alive. And I think the second part is ah too many people have lost the belief that we are,
00:48:53
Speaker
divinely created and no one can replace us. To me, that's a, it's a biggest like ego booster when you're like, when you're dealing with low self-esteem and you look at some of the things I went through as a child and I dealt with low self-esteem for a long time. But at some point, if you can, if you can gather and then hold on to what I believe to be the truth that no one can replace you.
00:49:19
Speaker
You're it. Like, there's not like, oh, if I'm not here, so no, that's not how it works. Will the machine keep running? Yeah. The earth will keep spinning. Yes. The population will do what it's going to do. Yes. oh But no one can replace you.
00:49:34
Speaker
And so those two things are big guideposts for me. we all have your new fingerprints for yes We all have unique fingerprints for a reason, right? We are very unique.
00:49:46
Speaker
Andy, you've shared so much and I love it. It's like, yes, we could have gone probably just one podcast on each of these topics and because we haven't even touched on your book. So please let's talk a but bit a little bit about your book before we close off.
00:50:01
Speaker
Tell... people. First off, when did you start writing it? And let's go over it. It's ah overcoming life's toughest setbacks and it's 15 core beliefs. So tell us when you started writing it and how this process has been for you of writing and now sharing your own life. So I'm a visual person.
00:50:25
Speaker
I, some people i understand hear words and they actually hear words when I hear words, I see pictures. And so to remember a painting, i give it kind of a, a name or kind of a little cliche, something that I can remember that by, because it reminds me of the picture that I've seen.
00:50:46
Speaker
And so over the years, I, I started writing down these little cliches that would, uh, little phrases that would remind me of things that I believe I've observed.
00:50:58
Speaker
And, over time, the things that came to me and maybe it's just my circumstances in life were almost always around how to survive, you know, how to get through, how not to quit. And I, over time I collected these 15, uh, phrases that I came to think of as my core beliefs. They're like the things that I hold onto. They're my helmet before the crash.
00:51:21
Speaker
And, um, And then going through the cancer and the loss of my son, my physician was like, hey, you really need to write a book. And I was like, I don't want to write a book. What would I write a book about? He said, wait, you survived cancer. And I was like, i don't to write a book about cancer.
00:51:34
Speaker
He goes, well, you know, you dealt with your son's loss, you know, and the impact of your family. and you You know, you're still still standing up. And i was like, yeah, I don't want to write a book about it. suicide But then one day, and i don't I don't know why, one day I started, looked at this because I keep i keep the 15 core beliefs like on this piece of paper just to kind of refer to them occasionally.
00:51:56
Speaker
And i i decided just in, you know, in word, ah ah took and I said, I'm just going to write like a little bit about each one. And so I read a little bit about each one. And then that You know and then I'd go back to it and be like, oh, you know, should write a little bit more.
00:52:14
Speaker
And the next thing I knew, um i had I'm not a writer, but I put together, you know, something that I then hired editor. And the editor changed the pricing on me because she gave me a price before she saw the work I'd done. And then she was like, it's going to cost you a little more to fix this and clean it up. And yeah.
00:52:34
Speaker
And so i you know, eventually this book came out and it's really just, it's not about any one thing. The 15 core beliefs are the things to me that long-term they help guide their aspirational.
00:52:47
Speaker
But what I, for me, when, when I have had to go from being completely devastated to that time when I could kind of get back on my feet and start slowly making progress again, these beliefs are like that, uh,
00:53:03
Speaker
That rope bridge between those two places across that deep valley. Right. And so you can find the book on my website, askandycampbell.com. Find stuff about my cancer journey there and and other things.
00:53:17
Speaker
Books that I read, supplements I take, that kind of stuff. ah but the But the book is there and it's on Amazon also. That's awesome. Yes, there's a lot of resources on your website. so again, askandycampbell.com.
00:53:31
Speaker
And ah you can see, yeah, like you have your resources, your own like health journey too, and everything on there too. And then the book, And the if you want to just read the 15 core beliefs, you could see them right there and then just buy the book.
Final Thoughts and Encouragement
00:53:48
Speaker
And if this if this interview was not a hint that you should read the book with everything, that just your own life as how you've lived through all these things and still held...
00:54:01
Speaker
Your held head high is very inspirational. Thank you, Andy. Andy, I always want to make sure that guests get to share something that if by chance I did not get to ask, or if you want to just make sure to leave some last words with our guests before we close off.
00:54:17
Speaker
Yeah, I was asked one time, what during my life's journey am I most proud of? And i say what I'm about to say in hopes that someone will hear it and will use this perspective ah to encourage them to keep ah keep struggling against whatever whatever their struggle is.
00:54:40
Speaker
And this is what I'm most proud of. Ultimately, i did not take out of the creator's hands his ability to move the universe in my favor.
00:54:52
Speaker
Now, not everybody makes it in every situation. I mean, Viktor Frankl talks about the, you know, out of 28 people that went into the camps, only one in 28 came out alive. But how you go into these situations and how you live through them is more important than when you're, whether you're the one in 27 or you're not.
00:55:12
Speaker
And so i would just encourage people ah no matter where you're at in the process, no matter how bad it is or your perception of it is, do not take out of the creator's hands the ability to move the universe in your favor.
00:55:31
Speaker
I love that. Thank you, i Andy. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.
00:55:40
Speaker
Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today's episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief.
00:55:53
Speaker
If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode. And if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone,
00:56:05
Speaker
who may need to hear this, please do so. Also, if you or someone you know has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well, please reach out to me.
00:56:21
Speaker
And thanks once again for tuning in Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray In Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.