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Polyfluid & Polysecure with Jessica Fern
4.2k Plays1 year ago
I finally got to interview Jessica Fern, author of one of my favorite books, "Polysecure"! I've been reading and re-reading this book for a couple years now, and it has helped me enormously in navigating polyamory and understanding how my own attachment style might affect various partnerships.
In this interview, we discussed Jessica's bi identity and poly journey, why the intersection between polyamory and attachment theory is so important, the SPECTRUM of attachment styles (rather than four distinct categories, as it is often framed), why monogamy has been seen as a cultural ideal (and how that's changing today), why non-monogamy can feel threatening to some people (and how to work through that), the SPECTRUM of boundaries and how to course-correct when we go too far in either direction, love as an infinite resource or muscle that can grow, the SPECTRUM of non-monogamous relationship styles (noticing a theme...?), pervasive poly-negativity and the importance of finding like-minded community, how transitioning from monogamy to polyamory can change your attachment style, where jealousy comes from and how to use it to deepen a relationship, and how to have secure attachment with yourself.
There are five extra minutes of bonus content only on Patreon in which we continued talking about jealousy (and other things we’re taught to repress from a young age), as well as why polyamory is “relatively insecure” compared to monogamy -- and why Jessica thinks that can actually be a good thing. www.Patreon.com/RobertBrooksCohen
Visit www.JessicaFern.com for info on her books, seminars/webinars, psychotherapy practice, coaching, and more.
Get 20% of Liquid I.V. -- https://zen.ai/APzgr1I0sD6_kQntndiKfA
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Updates
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Two Bye, guys. I'm so, so excited for this episode. My guest today is Jessica Fern, who wrote Polysecure, which is a book I just love, love, love. I read it a few years ago. I'm going to talk about it a lot more in the interview, so I'll leave it there. But it's an awesome book, and Jessica Fern is great. You're going to like this interview.
00:00:19
Speaker
I just wanted to apologize again, my audio is a bit fuzzy at the beginning because I had the gain setting wrong. It does get better as the episode goes on, hopefully you won't notice it, and it is totally fixed in future episodes. This is the last time you will hear me apologize about this.
00:00:35
Speaker
Also, I've launched a new Patreon. If you're not already listening to this there, you can find the link in all our social media bios. You will get early access to episodes as well as bonus content. So maybe you're already listening to this early, but if not, you could be in the future. There are also five extra minutes of this episode on that Patreon. I wanted to put the vast majority of this episode here for free for everyone because it's so great. And I know you'll learn so much from what Jessica shared, but I also wanted to give you some bonus content.
00:01:05
Speaker
five extra minutes for this one. And next episode, I'm talking to Vanit Mehta, repeat guest, about his new book, Bisexual Men Exist. And if you check out the Patreon now, you will get early access to that episode, hopefully pretty soon, depending on when you're listening to this. And that episode will have a ton of bonus content, at least 20 or 30 extra minutes, maybe more. I haven't finished editing yet.
00:01:28
Speaker
But we talked for quite a while, so there's tons of bonus content there and lots more in
Jessica Fern on Polysecure and its Impact
00:01:33
Speaker
the future. And without further ado, here is my interview with Jessica Fern.
00:01:49
Speaker
Hello everybody, welcome back to Two Bye Guys, the continuation of book season. I wrote a book, it's coming out soon, and so I'm interviewing every author I love and all their amazing books, and I'm especially excited for today's guest, her book
00:02:06
Speaker
has really, really helped me on this journey, especially like the next levels of it, not just the beginning, but the deep stuff. And I just like, it's my other Bible. We interviewed Jane Ward, and that was my bi-bible, and now this is my poly-bible, and it's all marked up. And I could show you, every page has underlines and everything.
00:02:32
Speaker
So my guest today is Jessica Fern. She is the author of Polly Secure, Attachment, Trauma, and Consensual Nonmonogamy, as well as the Polly Secure workbook. And her new book, Polly Wise, A Deeper Dive into Navigating Open Relationships, will be published in August. Is that right, in August? Yeah, August 25th. Okay.
00:02:52
Speaker
So that may, by the time you're listening to this, it may already be out. Jessica is a psychotherapist and coach who works with individuals, couples, and people in multiple partner relationships who no longer want to be limited by their reactive patterns, cultural conditioning, insecure attachment styles, and past traumas, helping them to embody new possibilities in life and love. Welcome to Two Bye, guys. Jessica Fern.
00:03:19
Speaker
Thank you, thank you. Thanks for being here. I really like I think I read this book a couple years ago and I go back to it so often. It's just so I mean I really hadn't read anything else like it that really validated
00:03:35
Speaker
the the desire to be polyamorous and then all of the different things that can come up within it and so many of those things make me feel like oh poly is too hard or maybe it's not for me but yeah really when you get deep into it the challenges can be possibilities and they can teach you things about yourself and you can work on all these things that
00:04:02
Speaker
that lead to the right kind of relationship for each person and each couple. So I am dying to talk about it with you. I'm so excited you're here. Before we get into the book, I always ask, how do you identify what pronouns do you use on any spectrums you want to identify on?
00:04:24
Speaker
Yeah, I identify as a cat mama. She, her pronouns, and I identify as polyamorous, as bisexual. I always get stumped on this question. It's so funny.
00:04:43
Speaker
those are the two identities that we'll talk the most about. So that's great. Yeah. I mean, I identify as many things and then I also never feel tightly fitting into those identities. Right. Interesting. Yeah. Even like author is a great one. I'm like, oh, I'm technically an author. I don't feel like an author. Right. So there's a lot of that for every identity I could say it is and it isn't all at the same time. Yeah.
00:05:11
Speaker
That makes sense. And for a lot of my identities, I feel like go in waves where like it will be really important to me at a certain time and then it is less important. And like my gender identity goes in a lot of waves. Yeah, right. And there's the identities I've inherited. There's the ones that I've deconstructed and reconstructed. So yeah.
00:05:33
Speaker
Well, let's talk about the bi and poly identities first. For both of those, I'm curious, when did you realize that about yourself?
Jessica's Personal Journey with Bisexuality and Polyamory
00:05:43
Speaker
Accept that? When did you start to tell other people or, you know, incorporate it into your work? What was your evolution like? Yeah, I was 14 years old when I first had a kiss with a girl. And then there was a bunch of us girls
00:06:01
Speaker
And we were growing up in Brooklyn in high school, Brooklyn, New York. And we all made out one night. And I was really lucky that there were several of us that identified as bisexual. So it was kind of normal to have these kisses and makeouts and maybe these kissing orgies that we would have at a party or something like that. Not full on sex orgies, but just make out.
00:06:28
Speaker
And so I remember being 14 and being like, oh, I'm bisexual. And it wasn't that big of a deal. It wasn't a ha, and it felt like, oh, this is great. And my friends knew it wasn't something really to share with adults until college when I actually got into my first full-on, I'm in love and in a relationship with a woman. And that's when I really came out as bisexual to my family. Cool.
00:06:56
Speaker
Cool. And then you've just been out since then and dating whoever. Yeah, dating whoever. And I was fortunate that my family was accepting of it. Yeah.
00:07:11
Speaker
That's great. That's awesome. Yeah, I wish I had some of those multi gender kissing orgies in high school. I know, right? Yeah, I mean, there was other fun stuff for me in high school, but it but it nothing that crossed the gender lines in such an open accepted way like that that I
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because in high school, there weren't boys kissing boys. There was girls who can kiss girls in front of boys and with boys, you know, but it wasn't until college that it was like, Oh, my male friends are also included in these kissing experiences with other men. You know, so it took a while for that too. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And and what about the poly identity? When did that develop? Yeah, develop much later awareness. Yeah, right. Because
00:08:00
Speaker
In some ways I was already doing non-monogamy at 14 years old, right? Like, you know, experimenting with different people and, you know, having a lot of experiences, um, in high school and college that were not monogamous experiences. Um, but it, so, but I wasn't consciously identifying with it. It just sort of what was right. And again, I was kind of lucky to have a group of friends that like, that's what we did. And it was fine.
00:08:30
Speaker
Right. And then I got into a monogamous marriage and it wasn't until being in that marriage and us officially opening up of going, oh, we're going to be polyamorous. Then it was like, oh, now it's actually an identity that I need to come out to the world or my family or others to. Yeah. So that happened a few years into that marriage. Yeah.
00:08:52
Speaker
Interesting. I mean, we'll talk more about this later, but there's often this like professed monogamy that most people claim, but most people are actually non-monogamous for a period up until they get into that monogamous relationship. They just don't think about it as non-monogamy, but that's what dating is for most people. I know. And it's so funny because with David, my first husband, before him, I was with a woman for a few years and he knew that.
00:09:21
Speaker
And then as we were having dialogues about getting together, I was like, how does my bisexuality, because my bisexuality was an issue with the woman I was dating. And I was like, how is it going to fit into my relationship with you and this marriage that we're going to have? And so it sort of was a dialogue, and yet we still were assuming exclusivity. It's really interesting to look back at that.
00:09:44
Speaker
Right. Yeah, interesting. Do you think there's any tie in between your bi and poly identity? Like did, or did one make you think of the other in a certain way? Or are they just separate overlapping things? How do they interact? Yes and no, they're both. Yeah. I mean, I think
00:10:02
Speaker
It's really interesting in general to say how do we impose monogamy on someone who identifies or feels themselves to be wired bisexual. Right. It's like and a good friend of mine who's also by once said she's like one sex or gender is not a supplement for the other.
00:10:19
Speaker
right, or a replacement for the other when you're bisexual, right? So it's like, we're often, we enter relationships with one gender or sex and can be like, Oh, what, but it's half of me or a percentage of me just never going to exist anymore. So I think there is that awareness. Yeah. Was there of, Oh, is this really going to work? Um, because of my bisexuality, but that the catalyst of polyamory
00:10:47
Speaker
did come from more of this place of just feeling in general, regardless of who I was with, that I could love more than one person and they could be the same sex or gender, right? But it was this feeling of like, oh wow, I know that I'm capable of this and it actually feels what's most right in me.
00:11:07
Speaker
Yeah. It's a very good bisexual answer to say it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of both, right? Everything's going to be poly, right? Right. And, you know, everything is on this spectrum. There's often this misconception that all bi people must be poly or, you know, want to have sex with everyone all the time or hypersexual, which is not the case. But we spend so much time dispelling that myth sometimes that we forget that
00:11:33
Speaker
Maybe I do. Many bi people do want that. Right. I mean, many bi people do want to live out their bisexuality on a continuing basis. And I talked to Dr. Mimi Huang about that, who talks a lot about how this polyamory or namanagami can be the way to live out those desires in a real way. Exactly. It can be important for many people. Yeah, exactly.
00:12:06
Speaker
Let's get into the book a little. My favorite book, Polysecure. I've read it. I had already read it multiple times and then I read it again before today.
Bridging Polyamory and Attachment Theory
00:12:17
Speaker
Yes. And so there had been books about polyamory before and non-monogamy, but many people consider your book groundbreaking because of its connection. You write about the intersection of non-monogamy and attachment theory.
00:12:32
Speaker
Right. So I'm curious why you decided to do that. What was missing from the conversation before? Why is that an important intersection? Yeah, right. There are books about polyamory, there are books about attachment, and there wasn't a book that had both.
00:12:47
Speaker
And it came out of seeing, working with polyamorous clients as a psychotherapist, and as they would describe a lot of what the challenges were, I was like, oh, these are attachment struggles they're having. These are attachment ruptures that are happening, or just the change in structure can create attachment challenges that arise from the change in structure of relationship.
00:13:13
Speaker
And all of the resources or most of the resources really didn't address what it is to be non-monogamous and go through attachment ruptures or need attachment healing. And most of the resources that tell you how to cultivate attachment with your partner were very mononormative, very mononormative. And it was a partner and I at the time, we were like each other's secondary. We each had like sort of our nesting partner and children and then we were partners and
00:13:42
Speaker
We were reading through some attachment stuff, and he was like, we can't do half of these things. And I was like, you're right. We can't. Because we can't have rituals at home together. And so a lot of the attachment literature before polysecure really prescribed monogamy as the way to have a secure attachment with somebody, and it left out or even pathologized non-monogamous people. So that was a big problem.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah, I will get into all that. Before we go on, can you define mono normativity and also like, how does that sort of pervade our thinking about all these things? Yeah, so that would be, you know, the belief, the assumption of
00:14:28
Speaker
of monogamy being what is normal, right, natural, these are all in air quotes, what's healthy, and that our society supports that, you know, monogamy is the way, it's what's supported in many multiple levels, whether it's your plus one or your taxes or your inheritance laws, right? All sort of assume monogamy, and it happens, and that's what we inherit, yeah.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's like when I was coming out as bi, I started to notice monosexual and that concept and like heteronormativity, but I couldn't yet comprehend like mononormativity.
00:15:13
Speaker
But then I started to notice how pervasive that was too and how it was actually almost harder to come out as poly to certain people and in certain ways in my life than it was to come out as bi because it's so ingrained.
00:15:29
Speaker
I completely agree. I completely agree. It was the harder one to come out as far as me, whereas coming out as bi people were just celebratory or excited or they didn't care. Um, whereas coming out as polyamorous, I think it felt very threatening to them. There was this sense. They're like, don't tell my partner this. He'll want to do it too. And I could feel that it's been people that were partnered. Um,
00:15:55
Speaker
Yeah, I often get like interrogated when I come out as Polly, like a lot of questions. And, and that may, I'm curious what you think is the reason for that? Like, is it on some level, people are afraid that it might be work for them too, but it's too difficult, or they don't want it even though they know it makes sense on some level? Or what do you think it is?
00:16:17
Speaker
I think it's a whole cluster of things. I think there's a lot of ignorance. And then because of that, there's a lot of microaggressions when you come out to people and they make comments like, oh, your partner's one person's not enough for you, or you want to have your cake and eat it too. There's all of that that happens, which is from ignorance. Oh, you have an attachment issue, that kind of stuff. But I do think most of us know.
00:16:46
Speaker
not attracted to solely one person for my entire life. And, you know, somewhere along the way you realize, yeah, this is a social construct that has been created as humans and statistically it's not one that is actually being practiced.
00:17:03
Speaker
And it is scary to think that your partner can be with someone else. It can be very threatening. So I think people hear about it and are worried. Oh no, what if I want this and my partner doesn't? Or what if I don't want this and my partner does? What do we do?
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and that's why in many ways, your book is so good for people of any relationship structure, even monogamous people, just to look at things in a different way outside of the structure of monogamy and to not let those structures dictate that you have a good relationship, but to really dig in either way.
00:17:40
Speaker
We'll get to more of that in a minute. But let's do like a little, I don't, we could spend all day talking about attachment theory. I could do an entire podcast series about it, but let's just do a little basics so people can understand what we're talking about afterwards. And the thing I want to ask you is like,
00:17:58
Speaker
So I've read about attachment theory before. I knew there's four styles. It's secure attachment. That's kind of what we're all striving for. Dismissive, preoccupied, and fearful avoidant. So those are sort of the four categories, but I kind of always had trouble figuring out which one I was and remembering what they meant.
00:18:18
Speaker
And then I read your book and I realized why you put them on a spectrum and you have two axes and the four quadrants are the four styles. And it it helped me so much to visualize it and to realize I'm not just one distinct style. I'm a point on this spectrum and I'm a little bit of of multiple. So can you talk about what the axes are and what that spectrum is?
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, and that's from Michelinser and Shaver, their research, academic research, which doesn't always get into the mainstream. It's a great resource that they created and a model they created that it's not just these four typologies and you're in one box, but it is these two accesses. And of course, my mind's blanking. It's your level of attachment avoidance.
00:19:13
Speaker
whether you're high or low in attachment avoidance or not. So am I leaning in or am I pulling back? And then am I high or low on how much anxiety I'm experiencing?
00:19:23
Speaker
And depending on where you are within that, you tend to look more secure, preoccupied, dismissive, or fearful, withdrawn. But what you're saying too is like, oh, I can feel one of these styles most of the time. And then when I'm triggered or in stress, I feel a different one. And I move up and down, maybe even within the same quadrant, right?
00:19:44
Speaker
or with different people, we experience different styles. We usually do not have the same style with our parents or our caregivers growing up. Yeah.
00:19:56
Speaker
Right. It really helped me because I always thought I was in, you know, I had mostly anxiety about relationships. I was anxious to be too enmeshed with someone. And I guess that leads me to be dismissive, the dismissive style. Right. But then I realized I'm not always that way if with certain partners or at certain times, I moved into that other column where I would be preoccupied. So it, yeah, I've moved around.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, right. We move around and our childhood can dictate these styles a lot. Right. But our adult experiences can change them as well. So positive experiences in adulthood of having a partner or relationship where you're really there's like you're being met, you're being loved, you're being appreciated. That can move us into feeling more secure. Going through a divorce, we can have a phase after that where we feel more insecure in our attachment style.
00:20:54
Speaker
I just in my own therapy this week was talking about, I had a friend a few months ago who was very close and who completely lied to me to my face and it ended the friendship. And now I'm having this like, oh, I was like, yeah, I'm having this total avoidant response now to like new friendships. People who want, they're trying to reach out and I'm like, not looking at texts. And I was like, what's going on? Oh, right. I just had an attachment rupture at the front level.
00:21:21
Speaker
You know, my style has adapted. Ideally, it's just temporary because of that.
00:21:27
Speaker
Right. That's really interesting how it's, I mean, that was a new concept to me that it's fluid over time, but it makes so much sense because that's how I feel about my sexuality as well. Yeah. And so of course it is. Your book has a lot of spectrums and fluidity that just made so much sense from that queer point of view. Exactly. Yeah. From my experience. Right.
00:21:54
Speaker
Yes. Well, and, you know, it's this gets into what I want to talk about next, which is like we often look at relationships as like good or bad, healthy or unhealthy or abusive. And like it's actually a spectrum and things can move. Can you talk about how attachment affects like relationship dysfunction versus attunement, how it affects boundaries? Like you have you have another
00:22:24
Speaker
where things that are good like autonomy and connection can then sometimes go too far and turn into isolation or co-dependence. How does attachment theory relate to all that and how does that work?
00:22:40
Speaker
Yeah, the way I was relating it is we can take these styles, especially the insecure ones, and often they're sort of problematized, pathologized. And yet I'm like, in them are sort of these innate drives or desires that we have as humans to be autonomous, independent on one end of that spectrum, and to have connection on the other end and intimacy, right?
00:23:06
Speaker
And so the avoidant attachment, they're really good at that autonomy piece and that independent piece. They have skills and capacities to advocate for themselves and their needs and their privacy, but then it can go too far where the boundaries become too rigid and I start to become isolated or I'm shut off or I'm closed down. I'm not letting
00:23:30
Speaker
things in or I'm not letting things out in terms of love or affection or even thoughts and opinions, right? So the boundaries get too rigid on that end usually. And then on the other end, you know, connection, it can go too far into this fusion or like you said, it can be a codependency where there's this loss of self and the boundaries are too fluid. Um, maybe that's not the right word fluid. The boundaries are too porous. That's what I use in the book.
00:23:58
Speaker
where there's a breakdown of self and other, you know, at the expense than even of connection. So and that's usually the preoccupied style where there's too much focus on the other and I'm losing myself in this relationship. Yeah.
00:24:13
Speaker
Right. And and your book for everyone listening, like the book goes really into detail on what all that can look like and lots of examples of how that happens. So like for me, I was sort of leaning. I was a very independent person in relationships for a long time. And I think part of that was because of I wasn't out as bisexual. And so I needed a certain distance from partners to to maintain that, even though in hindsight, I shouldn't have. But
00:24:42
Speaker
But I put that distance there. And then as I started coming out, I moved along that spectrum more toward connection. But because I didn't have those skills, really, I hadn't practiced that. I sometimes went too far into fusion and co-dependence. And your book went through what that can look like and really helped me kind of notice it and also helped me realize
00:25:11
Speaker
connect, looking for connection isn't a bad thing. Exactly. That's good skills I'm learning, but anything can go too far and you have to have boundaries on both ends. Right. We can drink too much water and hurt ourselves, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like the good nourishment that we need to subsist can go too far as well into something that then becomes toxic. Yeah. So it's, it is, it's finding that balance of these two
00:25:41
Speaker
things. How in your practice or in your life, how do people find that balance? It's hard for me. I sometimes feel like I'm bouncing back and forth. How do you recommend people find the balance besides just reading your book? If I'm working with someone, we talk through, okay, what are the obstacles to these things on either ends? What's in the way of feeling more autonomous?
00:26:08
Speaker
and independent and healthy way of being okay with yourself and being alone or knowing yourself and being able to then advocate for your wants and needs and desires. Right. What's in the way of that. And then working through that.
00:26:22
Speaker
that we can start to take steps to practice those things. And it's going to look different, of course, person by person. And then on the other end, what are the obstacles to you being close and connected? What are the fears of intimacy that might come up and working through that?
00:26:39
Speaker
Interesting. It's always like I kind of always looked at this stuff as like, this is how I am and I need to fix this thing and then I'll be fine. But actually, it's just kind of a lifelong dance of figuring out where you are now and how that's working with different partners. And you wrote, I'm going to read this quote because I loved it.
00:27:00
Speaker
With time and practice, we gain the ability to simultaneously tighten and loosen the reins without tightening so hard that we hurt or jerk the horse or loosening so much that communication and direction are lost. So that just helped me really see that it's okay to be constantly checking in and tightening and loosening and trying different things to find that equilibrium, and it's hard. It is, yeah. You have to be aware of it.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah. Before we get into actually the polyamory of it, uh, last question about attachment theory, like in your experience, how do across the gender spectrum, how do people approach attachment differently? And, you know, we, we talk a lot about masculinity and patriarchy on this podcast and like, how does that sometimes conflict with the skills that are necessary for attunement?
00:27:56
Speaker
Yeah, in a general way, that's my caveat, it's not for every person, but generally men are more conditioned to be what looks like the avoidant, dismissive attachment and women are more conditioned or feminine, masculine, are more conditioned to be preoccupied and focusing on connection and tuning into the relationship.
00:28:22
Speaker
And men get more of a free pass and not have to be as attuned. And, you know, neither of that really works out. That's what a lot of people come to complaint their complaints when they're looking for to work on their partnership. So, yeah, there's a definite cultural gender conditioning that can push us in certain directions with these attachment styles. However, of course, people of any sex or gender can, you know, be in any of these four categories.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, I actually think, I quoted your book a couple of times in my book, mostly in a chapter about polyamory, because some of the couples I interviewed are exploring non-monogamy, many remain monogamous. But I think I also quoted you in a chapter about masculinity, because you wrote, the plates of men are often dismissed and unseen, since men are regarded as the ones wielding all the privilege and power.
00:29:18
Speaker
But what happens when the same societal structures that grant men superiority also deny them the full range of human emotions and threaten their status as men if they experience even the slightest form of sensitivity, vulnerability, or indication of their needs for love, emotional safety, and tenderness?
00:29:36
Speaker
so much of your book and what polyamory requires, because it's really hard. I mean, we're about to talk about that, but it's I think it's worth it, but it's so hard. And it really, you have to push back against at least what I was taught about what it means to be a man. And what it means to be a man fits fits pretty well with monogamy, but that didn't fit well with me. Exactly. Yeah.
00:30:08
Speaker
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00:30:37
Speaker
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00:31:04
Speaker
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00:31:23
Speaker
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00:31:45
Speaker
Let's get into polyamory and non-monogamy. So we kind of talked about monogamy seen as the ideal and why that is. And do you think that's changing at all? Absolutely. Yeah, go ahead. Talk about that first. Is that changing now and why?
00:32:03
Speaker
It is changing. Yeah, I mean, there's certain studies of showing out people who are in their 20s are more likely to not assume monogamy in the same way that I did in my 20s. It seemed like you as well. You know, and the generations before, obviously, our parents and grandparents would have mostly assumed it as well. So it really is changing. And more and more people are considering it and exploring it or practicing it full out.
00:32:33
Speaker
Yeah, and it comes off. Go ahead. That's what I was going to say. It's following changes in other areas that are related, right?
00:32:43
Speaker
Exactly, right. We're in, you know, several decades now of deconstructing white supremacy, patriarchy, gender roles, you know, heterosexuality, all the isms and the norms, right, and monogamy had to get on the chopping board at some point with that as well.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you all I think I quoted this in my book, too. But you also wrote about the statistics on the divorce rate in America and statistics on cheating. And so has monogamy actually even been the norm? Or have we just been pretending that it is?
Societal Shifts Toward Non-Monogamy
00:33:20
Speaker
It's the espoused norm, and in practice, it does not actually seem to be the norm. I mean, when you look at how many people admit, that's the key word, admit to cheating. So there's probably more that don't admit to it. It's like, oh, wow, it's more than not. People are not actually practicing monogamy. Yeah.
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I want to make sure, I mean, I'm not anti-monogamy though. I really, I mean, there's phases, even as a polyamorous person, I've gone through several phases of being exclusive with partners because that's what we needed and that's what was best for us. Right. And for many people, it's completely a valid choice. And I think what we're advocating for is great. Monogamy is a valid choice, but then polyamory also needs to be a valid choice.
00:34:03
Speaker
Right. Right. I totally agree. And as Polly as I am at the moment, I also with my current primary partner have had phases of monogamy when we started dating, we wanted to do that. When the pandemic hit, obviously we did that. Exactly.
00:34:20
Speaker
And so there were personal reasons and also societal reasons that we wanted that. It worked when we needed it. And then we were able to sort of come in and out and make the choice for ourselves, but not feel locked in by expectations. Right. And so even thinking of your original question, I probably identify more technically as polyfluid.
00:34:44
Speaker
Right. Cause it's like, yeah, I feel like my essence is actually polyamorous, but it's a fluid in practice. It's fluid and it changes. Yeah. I like that. That's, I like that word. Uh, that can be your third book. So for you or for people you've worked with or met, like what causes people to think about non-monogamy or to choose consensual non-monogamy? Um, what type of people go there?
00:35:14
Speaker
I mean statistically it's all types of people. There isn't just sort of one type of race, class, all of those ways of identifying people or categorizing humans on a survey. But I usually see though it seems to be two different things. Some people just feel this is innately who they are. Whether they identify as bisexual or as straight, they feel that they are wired to love more than one person or to be sexual
00:35:44
Speaker
so they can identify more as polysexual or polyromantic. It feels like who they are and it doesn't feel like a choice that they're necessarily making to like, now I'm gonna live this certain lifestyle. Whereas other people are like, they learn about it and they're like, that's just what makes sense.
00:36:04
Speaker
This is a lifestyle that I'm choosing. It's philosophically what I agree with or just practically even makes more sense because they, you know, have cheated themselves or they know what the cheating rates are. They've been cheated on. Right. So I think I see that's usually where, you know, people come to it, you know, where they have a partner that suggested it.
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean I've told this story before but I feel like my poly nature comes from when I was younger and my parents, we adopted my sister. I was 11 years old and she was 18 months and I had been an only child and I didn't like the idea at first and my parents explained that
00:36:45
Speaker
my love would grow to include her and so would theirs and it wasn't like the love for me would then be divided between two siblings that it would stay the same for me and then some more love would grow to include my sister and
00:37:01
Speaker
You know, that made, that made sense to me and it brought me around to the idea. And then I just kind of think I always saw love in that way. I didn't connect it to polyamory for years, but even though my parents are monogamous and had a lot of trouble understanding polyamory for some reason, they are the ones that taught me that love is not a finite thing. It's like a muscle that can grow.
00:37:25
Speaker
Exactly. And I use that example that you're giving a lot of when people choose to have or adopt a second or third or subsequent child, they would never say that first child, well, we're doing this because it's just not enough. We don't love this child really. It's usually this draw, the arrows of expansion and to have more love and more family and more connection.
00:37:53
Speaker
is why we want more children or we want more than one best friend. So we know it in those contexts that we wouldn't expect to only have one.
00:38:03
Speaker
I make so much sense. A lot of people look at non-monogamy or polyamory as this monolithic experience and often a stereotypical one that's like, oh, they're all hypersexual. They just want to have sex with everyone. But again, you had a spectrum in the book with two axes that shows the range of different types of non-monogamy. We don't have to go to every bullet point on there, but can you briefly talk about that spectrum?
00:38:33
Speaker
So one axis is high or low on sexual exclusivity and then high or low on emotional exclusivity. So the way we usually define monogamy, you would be high on sexual exclusivity and high on emotional exclusivity.
00:38:51
Speaker
Whereas polyamory is kind of the other end where I'm lower on emotional exclusivity and lower on sexual exclusivity, right? Or I'll throw in one more.
00:39:04
Speaker
Most people have heard of swingers who tend, not always, but tend to be couples who are high on emotional exclusivity. We're not really falling in love with anyone else. That's not the plan at least, but we are lower on sexual exclusivity. We enjoy and play with multiple sexual partners, right? So, you know, there's probably five or six other ones that I throw in there and I'm sure there's going to be more that even, you know, weren't included in the book, of course.
00:39:31
Speaker
Right, right. And it just shows you that people like fear the the emotional, having no emotional exclusivity. And they think that's what they sort of have to do if they're transitioning to non monogamy. But there's there's many different possibilities. And it depends on the couple making that choice. Oh, yeah, I agree. Exactly. It depends on the person I'm with or the phase of life that I'm into.
00:39:58
Speaker
Yeah. What makes the most sense, right? Cause often like, let's say you might have a polyamorous partnership that then has a child and that might be a phase where they go, Oh, we haven't been very hierarchical, but now we are going to be because we're taking care of this infant.
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, I also I've only in the past couple months started going to a poly discussion group in Los Angeles and I love it so much. It's like so nice to be in a room full of people who think about these things in a similar way to me and validate being poly and
00:40:33
Speaker
have gone through some of the challenges I've been through, so I highly recommend looking for a group like this for anyone who's exploring it. But one thing that did happen recently was we were doing definitions for new people, and it's like, this is what non-monogamy is, and it's different from poly, and it's different from swinging. And
00:40:53
Speaker
in some respects, I think that's useful to think about how many different versions of this there are. But I really think that spectrum is the most useful thing because to me, they're all a little bit different, but they're on a spectrum and it can change and they're not totally distinct. Exactly. Yeah.
00:41:20
Speaker
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00:41:46
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:42:54
Speaker
This is a big question. It's what sort of the second half of your book is about.
Attachment Styles and Polyamory
00:42:58
Speaker
But an intro for people, you know, how how does attachment style affect the way we practice or approach non-monogamy? Yeah, attachment style has a huge impact in any relationship. So of course, it has a huge impact in monogamy as well.
00:43:17
Speaker
But what happens in polyamory is you don't have that same structural security that exists in monogamy. And so that for some people is liberating, but for other people it can be quite anxiety inducing and they can start to have this more anxious preoccupied attachment that they might have had before or a lot of times people like they didn't have it at all before. So just that structural shift can change our attachment style.
00:43:47
Speaker
people were partnered in monogamy before, they might find they open up and their attachment style completely changes. So it's like sort of how polyamory can influence, there's two directions. So what your first one we're saying here is polyamory can change our attachment style or influence it. In either way, we can become more secure insecure, but to be aware that as you make a paradigm shift, that shift is impacting the attachment system.
00:44:16
Speaker
And we might feel more secure because we're like, oh, I'm getting multiple needs met by multiple partners. That's amazing. Or because of you alluded to it before, polyamory does require a higher relational intelligence and relational skill set. And that can actually help us feel more secure in our relationships when we're having dialogues that we've never had before about needs and wants and agreements.
00:44:42
Speaker
But there can also be a lot of inconsistencies. You don't have access to a partner all the time in the way that you expect to in monogamy. And that can create anxious or avoidant experiences in our attachment system. Yeah.
00:44:58
Speaker
And then there's the other, but do you want to say anything about that first? No, no, go for it. Yeah. The other direction is what does each attachment style look like in polyamory? So if I'm more preoccupied versus if I'm, you know, functioning for more of an avoidance style and we can name it, but I, you know, I'm a hesitant cause I don't want people to, that's where the stereotypes or the biases come in. Cause people then say, Oh, that's what polyamory is. Right. So if you're someone who is more,
00:45:27
Speaker
in functioning from a dismissive avoidance style, it might look like I have multiple partners and I don't actually commit or it's more casual or when someone starts to get in close, I push them away and then I just switch partners, I jump ship, but that's not actually what people really doing polyamory are doing, right? But does it happen? Yes, it does, right?
00:45:48
Speaker
Right. That my polyamory can be a nice way to keep everyone's at arm's length where I have partners, but I'm not truly investing in any one person or any few people. Right. Same thing with the preoccupied. Oh, I never have to feel alone because there's always someone that I have. Right. Yeah. And it can be a grasping on to sort of a romantic phase of relationship that I never have to feel the transition into a different phase of relationship. That's not just new relationship energy.
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. We actually at my discussion group talked about new relationship energy for a whole couple hours one time. What's that and how does that affect the poly experience? Yeah, new relationship energy sort of is just that. It's the heightened energy, but it's really a whole entire hormonal neurochemical cocktail.
00:46:44
Speaker
that, you know, dopamine, adrenaline, oxytocin, you know, that we're getting really bathed in more of these hormones and neurochemicals and we are altered. We are in an altered state of consciousness as if we took a drug.
00:47:00
Speaker
In this phase of new relationship energy were excited were hyper focused were a little obsessed we're in love were dreamy we can stay up like those hormones help us that just like if you took something you can stay up late we can stay up late you know be on our bedtime and have more sex like this you know we push through our own physical boundaries in this phase.
00:47:22
Speaker
or limitations and then eventually you know it's it's designed so they say to help us bond and really create this sweet loving connection so it's not all bad it's not meant to be forever yeah and that's where a lot of us struggle right it's it's our bodies actually can't sustain that level of heightened
00:47:44
Speaker
altered state of consciousness and neurochemistry. So eventually we shift out of it and those hormones abate and then most people feel like
00:47:54
Speaker
they think the relationship's over or it's lagging, right? Where it's really an opportunity to go into deeper intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. So some people, yes, they're chasing new relationship energy in their polyamory that absolutely happens is up given, you know, a year, year and a half when the hormones start to abate, I pick up a new partner and I don't have to feel, you know, the withdrawals.
00:48:17
Speaker
Right, that makes so much sense and it's so validating I think to think about my relationships with that framing because yes sometimes like you get worried my relationship isn't the same as it was when we started does that mean something's wrong or we don't love each other as much but it's helpful to understand and internalize that
00:48:39
Speaker
relationships go through an evolution. And, and hopefully, when people are out there seeking new relationship energy, time after time, you would start to notice that and that can help you learn about your reactions to that, too, and help you, you know, understand what's going on. Exactly. I mean, just this morning, I was thinking about so the phase after new relationship energy, it's called symbiosis by some people or the romance phase,
00:49:08
Speaker
it then shifts into differentiation, which is often the conflict phase. Oh, now we're actually being two autonomous people that don't always agree and don't always want the same things. And we have to, can we be different and actually work through it? And can we, you know, now our shadows are showing up in the relationship. It's not all lovey-dovey and easy. My shit's coming forward. Can we work through that and then really integrate?
00:49:35
Speaker
And this morning, I was like, I mean, should anyone even commit until they go through the conflict phase, which takes a few years, like, you know, like lifelong commitment, of course, commit to being in the relationship. But you see, most people commit lifetime or long term commitment while still in that romance phase. And they haven't yet encountered the realities of this human.
00:49:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard. That makes so much sense to me. And I mean, I think I've had a healthy fear of commitment. Like I had an unhealthy fear of commitment at first, and now I have a healthy one. We're like, okay, this is good, but you know, we'll see. I don't need to commit forever yet. Yeah, exactly. I have a partner of a year, and we're over a year now, but we're still in a lot of the romance phase. And
00:50:26
Speaker
yeah I can feel oh look at this part of me that just wants to like vow my love forever and then wants him to say that to me and then this other part of me is like well just you know give it two more years before you even have that conversation at least yeah yeah yeah well and you mentioned this but I I just want to hit it again because this is something that really stuck with me so much from the book and I see it all the time which is
00:50:53
Speaker
mostly monogamous people, although anyone, they allow the structures of monogamy or tradition or like what society looks at as these benchmarks like marriage and buying a house and having a kid and being financially stable together. Like these benchmarks are signs that the relationship is working and it's good and it's secure. Yeah. And actually it can mask
00:51:19
Speaker
insecurity attachment insecurity inside of there exactly we all know that that happens because a lot of people get divorced or a lot of people are unhappy in marriages and yet so many people don't break out of that
00:51:34
Speaker
framing and so you wrote and I think I did quote this in my book you wrote allow your experience allow your direct experience with a partner to be the vehicle to secure attachment instead of having certain relationship concepts narratives or structures be the vehicle and I saw that play out in all the in all the interviews I did for my book that's that some people were looking at those structures some people were
00:52:01
Speaker
And some people were shifting to look at their actual attachment with their partner. And that usually seemed healthier to me. Can you talk about how that looks and plays out? Yeah, that we need to be paying attention to our relational experience. And it's not denying at all, or I'm not denying that structures do have an impact. We can feel more secure and safe when certain structures are in place.
00:52:28
Speaker
Even if it's just defining a relationship or defining your level of interest or commitment, not just things like marriage or we own something together. I think some structure is even needed. Some structure, though, can go too far. If that's the only way you're actually feeling safe and secure, then it becomes
00:52:50
Speaker
problematic and usually backfires, right? Cause then a few years in or at some point one partner is making these bids. We, I want more intimacy. I want more closeness. We haven't been doing that, right? It's not what we've actually signed up for. So yeah, that regardless of what structures we have or don't have, we can enhance our secure attachment through focusing on the relational experience of how am I showing up for you? How are you showing up for me?
00:53:19
Speaker
cool. Yeah, so the qualities of experience we have. Yeah. And so this isn't something we'll get into here. But it's why everyone listening must buy the book is that in the in the chapters that taught where Jessica talks about this stuff, she lists so many examples of what this can look like, what it can look like with
00:53:39
Speaker
different attachment styles with different attachment style pairings. And it was, I mean, I have so much underlined in that section of like, Oh, this, you know, this thing is me, and this thing is me. And, and it helped me notice what's going on and connect it back to, to these things as opposed to thinking, Oh, we're, we're incompatible, or there's a problem with my partner that she needs to fix. But actually, Oh, no, these are
00:54:09
Speaker
things that come up based on polyamory and attachment styles and you just have to communicate through them and you can when you have clarity about what's going on. And your book gave me that. Oh, good. I'm so glad. That said, it's still very hard. It's not like a check box and then it's done. Right, exactly. It doesn't mean it's easy.
Harnessing Jealousy for Growth
00:54:38
Speaker
Another thing that people talk about a lot in polyamory or a reason many people give for not wanting to try non-monogamy is jealousy. They would be too jealous or they see that as a problem or a warning sign in some way, but you write that jealousy can actually be, quote, an opportunity for increased clarity and connection. How does that work?
00:55:02
Speaker
Yes. Well, it's all our approach to not sort of be afraid of whatever's arising, whatever emotional experience is arising. And in this case, jealousy to see it as an, I see it as an important messenger. That's either pointing to something within myself that needs to be looked at and cared for and or pointing to something in the relationship that needs to be tended to.
00:55:29
Speaker
And we have such funny cultural ideas with jealousy that it's bad. It can get you to kill someone if you feel jealous, right? It's so dangerous, right? Or you're supposed to feel jealous if you don't feel jealous and you don't really love your partner. So it's very confusing of, well, I'm supposed to feel jealous. I'm not supposed to feel jealous. If I'm taken over by jealousy, I could, you know, do these wild things. So I think people that are non-monogamous, we just say, yeah, it's a human experience.
00:55:58
Speaker
and we just need to relate to it together.
00:56:02
Speaker
And that can lead to a deepening in that moment between people. Yeah. I love that. It used to get me very uptight to feel jealous or especially the other way when a partner of mine felt jealous. And now I can kind of not be so scared of that because we've gone through it and I don't think it'll break the relationship. But now I can then lean in and ask why or what is the issue, get to the bottom of it.
00:56:32
Speaker
Exactly.
00:56:40
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Two Bye, guys. This episode with Jessica Fern is almost over. Not yet. There's a little more. But there's also more on my new Patreon, about five extra minutes of bonus content with Jessica Fern. You really won't want to miss it. She is so awesome. We continued talking a little bit more about jealousy and Jessica's experience with that, and other things that were taught to repress from childhood, essentially.
00:57:04
Speaker
And we also talked about why polyamory is relatively insecure compared to monogamy, and why Jessica thinks that actually can be a good thing and make you feel more secure even though polyamory is less secure. I quoted that part of her book in my book, so head to Patreon to listen to that. The link is in all our social media bios and also in the show notes of this episode. And now here's a little bit more with Jessica Fern.
00:57:40
Speaker
So the title of the book is Polly Secure. We kind of have talked about this, but what does it really mean to be Polly Secure? And also do you, you wrote the book, but do you feel that way? Are there still things you struggle with in this space? Great question. Well, the word Polly Secure, the phrase is meant to point to the secure attachment we need with self to navigate being non-monogamous.
00:58:09
Speaker
as everything we've said, it's relatively less secure of a relational structure, right? So we need to have more internal security and to navigate the multiple complexities of having more partners, as well as then being in secure relationships, secure functioning with multiple people. So we can be in secure relationship with more than one person.
00:58:36
Speaker
And we need to have that internal secure attachment as well. And one of the myths I think of secure attachment is that you think you never have insecure moments, right? So that I can be securely attached, but I still will have insecurities come up. I still have fears that come up.
00:58:57
Speaker
I just have the ability capacity and commitment to talk about that and bring it up. So it doesn't actually become a style of relating itself. It's more of, you know, a temporary experience that's happening that needs attention. So yes, I do feel like.
00:59:15
Speaker
in moments, I can say yes, I feel very poly secure. And which includes in that that that doesn't mean I always feel completely secure within myself or with others, but I'm committed to the process of returning to that in those relationships or with myself. Yeah.
00:59:32
Speaker
Right. Those challenges and insecurities are part of it. And being poly secure means you've learned to address them and notice them and be comfortable talking about them with partners and getting to the bottom of it. Exactly.
00:59:48
Speaker
yeah exactly cool so there's so much more in the book yeah i'm glad you mentioned the secure attachment with self because we didn't have time but there's there's a lot about that in the book i know there's a lot about how to practice poly security the hearts of being poly secure there's a chapter that's great
01:00:08
Speaker
I highly encourage everyone to pick up the book if you're thinking about polyamory or even if you're not. If you are committed to monogamy, I still think this book can be great for you to notice like how are you relating with your partner versus what is a structural security. So polysecure is available everywhere. PolyWise will be out in August 2023 and hopefully you'll come back on the podcast next year to discuss that.
01:00:34
Speaker
and uh you can visit yes please because there's so much more to talk about um you can visit jessica fern.com for more for links to the books for seminars and webinars for uh information about your psychotherapy practice and coaching and uh thank you so much for coming on the podcast jessica yes thank you so much for just
01:00:56
Speaker
loving the book up and you're supportive of my work and your commitment to yourself and diving in. Yeah, I'm just very touched. Thank you.
01:01:08
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Bincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.