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Getting Niche and Nerdy with Charles McFarlane
161 Plays19 days ago
This week, we welcomed back long-time friend of the show, Militaria legend, astute journalist, collector, historian, and author of Combat Threads, Charles McFarlane. The first of a two-part series, we explore the beginnings of his writing career, his recent outdoors adventures, what pieces of vintage military gear still hold their own, the intersection of modern military clothing and outdoor gear, the WW2 distribution system, the “Tactical Military Industrial Complex”, and a slew of other topics.
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:01
Conor Fowler
hello and welcome to apocalypse duds i am your co-host connor fowler
00:00:08
matt
And I am your other co-host Matt Smith.
00:00:10
Conor Fowler
and today we re-welcome charles mcfarland a journalist costume historian all around good good fellow we have had him on the show before and that was nice
00:00:27
Charles
Yeah, a long time ago.
00:00:28
Conor Fowler
and informative, actually like at the very beginning of the show practically.
00:00:32
matt
Yeah. Yeah. It was almost four years.
00:00:33
Charles
No,
00:00:34
Conor Fowler
So I'm sure it's like actually not a good interview, but we're hoping to do a good one today.
00:00:40
Charles
i think i mean that that was good too because I think it was right in the midst of me like writing my my master's thesis. So it was like kind of all about that.
00:00:47
Conor Fowler
believe that's right.
Charles McFarland's Writing Journey
00:00:49
Conor Fowler
Well, now you're writing now you're writing up a storm.
00:00:49
Charles
yeah that was fun.
00:00:51
Conor Fowler
I mean, now you're writing like, I didn't wanna list your bylines, but holy shit.
00:00:59
Charles
you know
00:00:59
Conor Fowler
Have you ever heard of a little magazine called GQ?
00:01:03
Charles
ah yeah and i'm I'm very fortunate to yeah to to get some bylines over there. I really enjoy writing for them.
00:01:08
Conor Fowler
Well, you are also skilled.
00:01:12
Charles
Sorry?
00:01:13
Conor Fowler
I said you're also skilled.
00:01:15
Charles
ah Yes, thank you.
00:01:16
Conor Fowler
You're fortunate and skilled, I mean.
00:01:16
Charles
um
00:01:18
matt
Yeah, yeah, I enjoy doing or ah reading combat threads every week too, or whent pretty much every week.
00:01:23
Conor Fowler
yeah Yeah, I'm a very loyal reader of that.
00:01:24
Charles
Oh, yes.
00:01:25
matt
um
00:01:26
Charles
when Whenever I get around to writing it.
00:01:28
matt
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I kind of like it because, you know, like people that, like I only subscribe to a handful of of writers and their you know newsletter or whatever, but like it's a couple of them you included, like when it comes through, i'm like, ooh, a little treat for the day.
00:01:29
Conor Fowler
Well, cause you got other shit to write.
00:01:32
Charles
Yeah.
00:01:46
matt
i didn't realize.
00:01:47
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a surprise. It's not, it's not super consistent. So it's like, when is it going to happen? You don't know.
00:01:56
matt
right
00:01:58
Charles
but Thank you. Thank you for that.
00:01:59
Conor Fowler
Yeah, dude, it's it's it's really good.
00:02:00
Charles
Thank you making me feel less bad about not being consistent with it.
00:02:03
matt
No, no, dude.
00:02:03
Conor Fowler
Yeah, no.
00:02:05
matt
I mean, we, we know from trying to put out an episode a week, like it's fucking hard and it's a lot of, it's a lot of work.
00:02:13
Charles
Yeah, for real. Yeah.
00:02:14
Conor Fowler
super hard.
00:02:14
Charles
it is
00:02:14
Conor Fowler
And writing is super duper hard. I mean, writing is like one of the hardest things you can do. My parents are writers. I say this with some experience and I never write anything.
Choosing History Over Journalism
00:02:25
Conor Fowler
So it's like, um I guess I was going to ask you, like, when do you start writing? Not even, like, seriously, but, like, if you ever...
00:02:36
Charles
you you Do you mean like, sorry, do you mean like kind of like in the sweep of my my my life or do you mean like in the day?
00:02:43
Conor Fowler
Yeah. no no, no. Like, in the future of your life, so, like, did you start writing, like, at the high school newspaper?
00:02:46
matt
and that was a big deal, and we're trying to get a lot of other services.
00:02:50
Charles
Oh, sure.
00:02:51
Conor Fowler
No.
00:02:51
Charles
yeah, yeah. I mean, i went to, um I mean... I would say pretty young age, I knew I wanted to to write, or at least kind of like for writing to be a part of my my everyday kind of work. um Yeah, probably like by high school, i knew that's what I wanted to do um Also, I went to like a high school that was like a very writing heavy. So like I definitely was like writing every week, um you know, something.
00:03:16
Charles
And then, yeah, I ended up going, you know i went to college. um And again, if I kind of knew I wanted to pursue some kind of like, you know, kind of journalism writing of some kind. um But I knew I didn't want to study that, though.
00:03:30
Charles
I was like very adamant about that. I was like, I want to study something that's not like, you know, I don't want to go to J school. You know, I don't want to study media.
00:03:36
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:03:37
Charles
Like I want to study, you know, i studied history. um Because it was like, you know just looking at the the writers who I liked, you know, and kind of just, again, the contemporary writers that I also thought were doing really great journalism.
00:03:49
Charles
was like almost no one studied journalism before getting into it. you know, so kind of like what could be my background, right, that I can then bring that to the table and write, you know. um So, yeah, so kind of gravitating towards history, um which makes sense, um you know, obviously.
00:04:04
Charles
And, like, a you know, a lot of great historians are journalists and a lot of great journalists are are writers. Yeah.
00:04:10
Conor Fowler
Well, a historians are not working.
Military Aesthetics and Writing Relevance
00:04:13
Conor Fowler
So you are doing great because you're a working historian.
00:04:14
Charles
Yeah. yeah
00:04:15
Conor Fowler
You know what I mean? It's like your knowledge is contemporary. Your knowledge is like relevant.
00:04:19
matt
Right. yeah I also feel like, yeah, you kind of you kind of came into it at the perfect time when like the things that you're very knowledge knowledgeable about have become you know had become popular.
00:04:34
Charles
I mean, that's certainly like a blessing and a curse, right? Because like, I think there's like a world where like, yeah, I'd really like for my work not to be as like relevant um as it is today.
00:04:37
matt
Yeah, right, right.
00:04:44
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:44
Charles
You know, like, i yeah, yeah.
00:04:45
matt
And we're going to get into that. ten
00:04:48
Charles
um I mean, it's definitely kind of been like yeah. No, it's definitely the thing I think about quite ah quite a bit is like, man, like, you know, i thought that this was going to kind of be like a little bit more of a niche, you know, and now it's kind of a little bit more, um yeah, i mean, just like writing about um kind of the aesthetics of the military, military uniforms, kind of militarization of police, like all these kind of themes, like just feel very, um feel very relevant right now in a way that I was hoping that they weren't going to be relevant.
00:05:19
matt
Yeah.
00:05:21
matt
Right, right.
00:05:22
Charles
Yeah.
00:05:22
matt
I get that entirely for sure.
00:05:25
Charles
Yeah. um But yeah, no, i and then, yeah, my, I'm trying to, this question, um but yeah, i don't know. I started writing pretty young. um It's, you know, it's funny. I remember like when i graduated from college and got my first like kind of like, you know, real job, you know, I kind of found out really quickly that like I actually had no idea how to write and kind of had to like, you know, actually learn how to write for a living. And I was very fortunate to have you know,
00:05:53
Charles
have a really good, you know, boss who really like took me under his wing and like really taught me how to like, how to write, you know yeah. How to like, you do do, good, you know, kind of copy. um And I definitely, that has stuck with me.
00:06:08
matt
Okay. Well, uh, welcome back to the show.
00:06:11
Conor Fowler
It's a good answer.
00:06:11
matt
um
Backpacking Adventure and Gear Discussion
00:06:12
Charles
Yeah.
00:06:12
Conor Fowler
Oh.
00:06:12
Charles
Thanks. Yeah.
00:06:12
matt
yeah, yeah.
00:06:12
Charles
Yeah.
00:06:13
matt
Um, we've, uh, we've seen some of your non reenacting outdoor activities, uh, and and kind it kind of, kind of wanted you to, uh, to tell us about your recent adventure.
00:06:20
Charles
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:27
Charles
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Connor and I were talking about this because I kind of ghosted him there for a minute um to to get on here.
00:06:32
Conor Fowler
o
00:06:33
Charles
um It was partially because I was, yeah, I was i was backpacking out in ah Washington state, um which is kind of yeah, it was really fun for me to, was for my friend's 30th birthday.
00:06:44
Charles
um But like, you know, i think kind of as we were just talking about a little bit, like I've started to do more, um, started to write and cover more, like, contemporary military um uniforms and clothing, right? Which, like, are, know, very much intersect with the outdoor industry.
00:07:02
Charles
um And, like, know, if you listen to, ah like, the last season of Articles of Interest, it's, like, very much, you know, all about this, right? You know, this kind of... um Yeah, the kind of the very symbiotic relationship between military uniforms and military kind of contracts and the outdoor industry, like with companies like Patagonia, Outdoor Research, Arc'teryx.
00:07:24
Charles
So anyway, the the point is it was kind of fun to um be able to like kind of get some of that kind of kit that like, you know, I've like kind of collected over here and there and actually use it.
00:07:36
Charles
know, I've talked about modern stuff, you know.
00:07:36
matt
Yeah.
00:07:37
Charles
um But yeah, no, it it was a good time.
00:07:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:07:40
Charles
Yeah.
00:07:40
matt
Did you?
00:07:40
Conor Fowler
And it looked fucking amazing too. I mean, like it looked like kind of alien, I would say like the terrain looked kind of alien.
00:07:42
matt
Yeah, it does.
00:07:46
Charles
It was...
00:07:49
Charles
Yeah, I mean, very early on, yes. This was like, you know, in the... um Like, ah the Olympic ah Peninsula, right? Like, in Washington. I'd never been out there before, um ever.
00:07:57
Conor Fowler
me neither.
00:07:58
Charles
And I literally... i landed. Like, I flew into Seattle. um My friends picked me up, and we went to the trail. And then i went from the trail back to the airport. Like, did not spend any time doing anything else except for for backpacking.
00:08:10
matt
That's fine.
00:08:11
Charles
um
00:08:12
matt
That's awesome.
00:08:13
Charles
But, ah yeah, no, we... um it was like, you know, it felt like you were in like the land before time, you know, it was just like these like giant trees, these giant ferns.
00:08:19
Conor Fowler
Yeah, seriously. Burns, yeah.
00:08:21
Charles
And then also kind of just like very otherworldly too, of just like all this like volcanic, like, so you know, soil, you know and sand, it's like all all the sand was like black, you know, and you're just like, again, it's just like, feels very unnatural um for, you know, an East coast boy like myself.
00:08:29
matt
Right.
00:08:38
Conor Fowler
Right, right, right.
00:08:38
Charles
um So yeah.
00:08:39
Conor Fowler
Like us, yeah.
00:08:40
matt
Is that kind of an is that like the northern like part of the Cascades, or is it a different different area entirely?
00:08:41
Charles
Yeah.
00:08:48
Charles
Man, I don't know. I'm going to be real with you. I don't think it's the same area, but like if you look on a map, right it's like Seattle and it's kind of like fish hooks down. like That's the only thing.
00:08:56
matt
Yeah.
00:08:57
Charles
My fiance pointed out that I had no idea that um where I was going, the nearest town was where Twilight takes place. So I don't know if that helps you guys catch your bearings, but it's
00:09:06
matt
Oh! It does not.
00:09:08
Conor Fowler
Interesting.
00:09:08
matt
Does not.
00:09:10
Charles
ah
00:09:10
Conor Fowler
What is the name of that place? I know it's like, yeah, I know it's like totally like fucked by tourists now, um which is, yeah, don't know.
00:09:12
Charles
called Forks.
00:09:18
Charles
yeah
00:09:19
matt
I'm sure.
00:09:20
Charles
I mean, it's still very, very remote. We drove we drove through it and it was like, yeah, there are like you know museums and gift shops, but like we're talking about, it's a pretty desolate like you know little town. um
00:09:30
Conor Fowler
and no vampires.
00:09:31
matt
did Did you at least and incorporate an ah extreme cold weather Gore-Tex park in your adventure?
00:09:32
Charles
yeah
00:09:37
matt
a
00:09:38
Charles
Unfortunately, unfortunately i did not need extreme cold weather, but I did i did bring, you know, brought my ah my, like, you know, late 1990s, like, reversible Gore-Tex shell pants that are on one side, desert night camouflage, and on the other side, ah desert three-color camouflage, which, like...
00:09:49
matt
Nice.
00:09:56
matt
Oh, that's, yeah.
00:09:57
Charles
I've had those for years and I'm like, ah finally, I have an excuse to actually, to actually wear these. Um, and then I guess, you know I kind of had like a bunch of like random Patagonia pieces too that from their military contracting days. So like early two thousands and some of their Mars stuff, which was like, again, like their kind of military line. They did kind of very early G watt, um, that they were kind of playing around with.
00:10:21
matt
Right, right.
00:10:22
Charles
And yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it, it was great. It was, you know, was fun. I think, um, I mean, everything stood up, right? And the only thing, too, that I brought from my kind of like a my my my World War II collection was a ah ah ju ah jungle sweater, um which honestly was like...
00:10:41
Charles
per this is like a These jungle sweaters, they're like a very, very lightweight, like basically merino wool like Henley, essentially. um
00:10:48
matt
Oh, right, right.
00:10:49
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:10:50
Charles
Yeah, and like you know a friend of mine and I, like a few years ago, we...
00:10:52
Conor Fowler
I wrote a piece about right?
00:10:55
Charles
Sorry?
00:10:56
Conor Fowler
Didn't you write a piece about them? Mm-hmm.
00:10:58
Charles
We reproduced them, actually. like We got together with Bronson, um and we like did a run of 300 or so. um
00:11:06
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:11:07
Charles
And they like came out really, really good. and That was like making a reproduction, which was a really fun experience. It was very hard experience, but it was really fun. um Just kind of you know working directly from you know the Quartermaster core specs and like originals that my friend Josh had had in his collection.
00:11:24
Charles
And like, he again, working with this, with with Bronson Manufacturing, so like over in China, um a lot of like very late night Zoom calls, you know, like, you know, two in the morning um or my time, you know.
00:11:35
matt
Right. Right.
00:11:37
Charles
um But they came out really well.
00:11:37
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:11:38
Charles
And, you know, they really, it was cool to like wear it in that environment that it was very much designed for, which was like kind of, you know, it, you know, where we were was, you know, it's a rainforest, it's incredibly humid, but it's also like gets cold at night.
00:11:52
Charles
you know So it's like you know you're getting like you know you're in the 70s, 80s during the day. um i mean, maybe not the 80s, but you're definitely in the 70s during the day, and then you're dropping down to mid-40s at night, and it's you know you're incredibly damp. And like that's exactly what the Jungle Sweater was designed for. or I should say, what it was it was actually originally designed for like Alpine troops, and then eventually, though, it kind of became the Jungle Sweater and was used a lot throughout the Pacific during World War II. Yeah.
00:12:20
Charles
And you can kind of see them pop up in photos.
00:12:20
Conor Fowler
Interesting. course.
00:12:22
Charles
Again, you don't think about that as like, you know, especially kind of the the marquee, um you know, famous battles of the Pacific, you know, they always, I feel like are kind of advertised as incredibly hot affairs, you know, like kind of, you know, tropical, um which like they they they they were, but like, you know, again, like, you know, it's, you are dropping down quite a bit at night.
00:12:38
Conor Fowler
course
00:12:43
Charles
um And so like, they kind of realized really quickly that they needed some kind of like mid layer to kind of just like help, you know, kind of keep guys warm.
00:12:52
matt
Totally. Yeah.
00:12:52
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:12:52
matt
Well, we were going to ask if any reenactment gear holds up. And I think that that answers the question.
00:12:58
Charles
Yeah, I mean, like, what was also fun for me, I mean, this is kind of, like, getting really, like, niche and nerdy, but, like, you know, um you know, I'm used to doing, like like, my experience camping essentially is doing, like, you know, World War II reenacting, you know, U.S.
00:13:04
Conor Fowler
Perfect.
00:13:14
Conor Fowler
Because this is your first time like doing modern camping, right?
00:13:14
Charles
stuff. Yeah, yeah. In a very long time, yeah. Like, you know, probably not since like I was like in maybe like high school.
00:13:20
Conor Fowler
he
00:13:25
Charles
I mean, I guess I did i did five days on the Appalachian Trail ah right after my first year of college, which was a lot of fun.
00:13:32
Conor Fowler
Yeah, that's not that's not nothing. Yeah.
00:13:34
Charles
um But yeah, I mean, it really was kind of like my first time like on like a kind of a true like kind of backpacking. like you know This was the most remote I've ever been, for sure. But you know my experiences with that, though, like kind of doing these like you know World War II reenactments where you know it's like you know a few days, but you know it's um you're wearing leather boots, right? like you Which are heavy as shit. like you know don't keep in any warmth at all.
00:14:03
Charles
Um, get wet really quickly. You you're changing your socks, like, you know, basically as often as you can and like, you know, tent, no sleeping bag, no sleeping mat.
00:14:13
Charles
You know what i mean?
00:14:14
Conor Fowler
Yeah, because I remember the GI Joes, like, just like, wool blanket, wool blanket.
00:14:14
Charles
It's like, you know, you're, yeah yeah, exactly.
00:14:19
Conor Fowler
What the fuck can you do with a wool blanket?
00:14:22
Charles
Yeah. So was like, I'm kind of used to that. So this felt very, very luxurious for me.
00:14:26
matt
ah
00:14:26
Charles
Um,
00:14:27
Conor Fowler
I'm sure, dude, because your boots are waterproof, right? You were wearing waterproof boots. I'm sure that's, like, life-changing.
00:14:32
Charles
Yeah, I was wearing like you know like my like you know kind of Merrill Gore-Tex. you know like Yeah, like super like super lightweight. And like also, don't know, was talking to a friend of mine about this afterwards, like you who is something that we talk about in the re-acting space. Again, this is kind of very like insider baseball, is like how a lot of... um Sometimes you know we talk to guys who are, you know, and the but foot problems are like pretty consistent, like at reenactments.
00:15:00
Charles
And a lot of times it's like, not the people who you think it would be. It'd be people who like kind of have, ah you know are either in the military now or were in the military like now. And and i and I, I kind of my hypothesis has been for a long time, like, i just, think like boot technology today like allows you to like not change your socks, basically, and like basically not suffer any consequences for it.
00:15:17
matt
Yeah.
00:15:20
Charles
And then you come out to do like you know World War II reenactment, and you're wearing like heavy leather boots that you know and your feet are getting soaking wet pretty quickly, and you know you have issues pretty pretty quickly.
00:15:31
Charles
um But yeah, I mean, I
00:15:32
Conor Fowler
Frenchfoot.
00:15:33
Charles
Yeah. yeah
00:15:34
Conor Fowler
No joke.
00:15:34
Charles
But just, you know, just like, you know, just, yeah, like, you know, getting wet feet and then just rubbing against like your socks and getting crazy blisters, like whatever it is, you know.
00:15:42
Conor Fowler
Oh, yeah.
00:15:44
Charles
um But yeah, no, it was it was it was a good time. it was a really good time. um And like, I mean, I think i think for for me, like one of the things I really get out of um reenacting and then also kind of comparing it to
00:15:49
Conor Fowler
Like wearing a loafer with no socks.
00:15:58
Charles
this campaign experience I just had is you know, especially as it relates to my work, right. As far as like, you know, being a, um you know, writing about military uniforms, especially kind of historically, and you know, one of my big topics that returned to and and have written a lot about is kind of the, um the invention of the field jacket and kind of the, the uniform system that the U S developed during world war twoi is like, you really do get like a, you
00:16:21
Conor Fowler
Oh, yeah.
00:16:26
Charles
you get an insight that I just don't think you can get from just reading about it. Like, even if you're reading, like, firsthand accounts of how this gear worked and, like, why it, you know, was, you know, why certain guys loved, you know, this jacket and hated that jacket, like, whatever it is, right? Like, by by doing and kind of, like, just wearing this stuff for, like, extended periods of time and getting used to it and, like, you can, don't know, it it does unlock something, ah like you know, some kind of, like, understanding of how,
00:16:55
Charles
you know these garments were designed and how they were used and kind of you know what their weak points were and what their strong points were um that
00:17:02
matt
Right.
Experiencing Historical Military Gear
00:17:03
Charles
I think is really valuable.
00:17:03
Conor Fowler
Well, it's like, you don't know, you don't know you don't know shit really until you're in a trench.
00:17:11
Charles
Yeah, I mean, like i don't like it's not like, you know I want to be like wary of, you know um
00:17:16
Conor Fowler
Is it really like war right now?
00:17:17
Charles
you know can can Yeah, like, it's not, like, kind of, like, i would say, like, my point is, like, slightly to the side of that, which is, like, you know, um
00:17:24
Conor Fowler
sure
00:17:26
Charles
you know, if you're writing about these jackets, right, which again, it's like, it might sound a little silly, but like, yeah that is what I spend a lot of my time writing about is, you know, kind of these, these jackets, how they were designed and how they were used.
00:17:37
Charles
You know, I think your understanding can only go so far from just kind of getting the text, as opposed to being like, I'm going to I'm going to use the, going to wear this jacket in the layering principle that it was designed to be used for, to keep warm.
00:17:42
matt
Right.
00:17:42
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:17:47
Conor Fowler
To keep warm.
00:17:49
Charles
Yeah. And then like,
00:17:50
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:17:51
Charles
oh, it works. like ah Like, you know, not only, like, I've read that it works, but now I understand, you know, that it works, you know, or like, you know, when you...
00:17:56
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's like walking in someone else's shoes, you know? It's like literally.
00:18:01
Charles
Yeah, yeah. Like, we... you know, with like the 43 jacket, right? The kind of the classic, you know, field jacket, like, you know, they have like, you know, the, the, the large cargo pockets, you know, these four cargo pockets. And like, you know, you read a lot about like guys, you know, GIs talking about like living out of their pockets, right? Like, you know, these giant pockets allowed them not to have to carry such a heavy pack because they would just, you know, fill their pockets instead. And then like, kind of just like doing that for a weekend. Yeah.
00:18:28
Charles
you know And just like, okay, like you know i have all of my food, my toiletries, you know like all that kind of stuff just shoved in these pockets. And like that's all i'm you know I'm walking away from the car and that's all I have until I you know go back at the end of the weekend.
00:18:43
Charles
ah Yeah, I don't know. I think it like it it it allows you to understand something about the garments that um I don't think just reading about them does.
00:18:52
matt
Totally. Totally. Although I think the other side of that coin too is like, you know, as, as military has become popular in the vintage clothing world, like, you know, you, you constantly hear people talking about the quote unquote golden age of American
Vintage vs Modern Garment Quality
00:19:07
matt
manufacturing. And it's like, this stuff was designed very well.
00:19:11
matt
And you know it Like you said, it works, but it was being pumped the fuck out as fast as humanly possible because of the need for it.
00:19:21
matt
And it's like, you know you compare you compare like the the construction of a World War II garment versus like a modern Japanese reproduction, and there's no contest no contest what's made better.
00:19:31
Charles
Mm-hmm. Just to be clear, you think the Japanese one is made better? I'm assuming.
00:19:38
matt
Uh, so ah I'm by better. I don't mean a hundred percent correct because like, you know, take, take, take like, you know, take like a real McCoy's, uh, you know, first pattern M 65.
00:19:43
Charles
Yeah, no, no, we're not. I understand.
00:19:50
matt
It's the, the fabric isn't totally correct, but like, yeah, it's it like the construction is definitely way above par as far as like, compared to like a modern mayor or a a vintage American M 65.
00:20:04
matt
That's kind of what I mean.
00:20:05
Charles
Yeah, i think i think i think that's pretty I think that's pretty reasonable. It's funny, it's like I have a pair of like, um you know, I mean, I should probably say like some of the other work I do, right, is like, you know, for Sierran and Strange, which obviously carries um the real McCoys um and like other kind of brands like that.
00:20:16
matt
Yeah.
00:20:20
Charles
um But, you know, i have a pair of like the the John Gluckow kind I think they're called like the... ah Oh my what are they called? The net makers trousers, which are kind of these like denim, like work pants that have you know these kind of like two funky front pockets. um But like, you know, when you're looking at it, like the way that they reproduced it, it's like just down to kind of like the uneven, like stitch work.
00:20:47
Charles
Like it's like, it's like to the point where you're just like, it's actually probably harder to like reproduce this, like, like this than just like, you know, making it,
00:20:47
matt
Right.
00:20:56
Charles
in like straightening it out. You know what I mean?
00:20:57
matt
Oh, totally, totally.
00:20:58
Charles
Like, it's like, you have to go out of your way to like, you know, to make some of these like sloppy stitches, which are totally, know, on purpose. um But I think you're totally right though with like, I think the real McCoy is like, they they don't, they're not doing that.
00:21:10
Charles
Right. Like they're making, they're making it as like, as best as they can, which is, which is great, you know?
00:21:10
matt
No, no.
00:21:15
Charles
And like, it makes for, you know.
00:21:15
matt
Yeah, yeah. like like You're not going to find you know you're not going to find like some thread runoff on a real McCoy's M65. But you know you're going to see shit like that on a vintage one every every single time.
00:21:24
Charles
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it,
00:21:29
Charles
Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think the only thing that the real McCoys does that's kind of in that realm that I think is cool is And like I think it's like they ah they they do kind of try to, they're clearly trying to add like a little bit more slub to their fabric, right?
00:21:45
matt
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:21:45
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:21:45
matt
Definitely.
00:21:46
Charles
um And like so you kind of see that. like I have a tanker jacket that I i got this past winter. And like you could tell like there was a little slubby, um like honestly, a little more slubby than like originals I've handled.
00:21:58
Charles
Yeah.
00:21:58
matt
Yeah.
00:22:00
Charles
But, and then I watched it and like the slubs like really popped out and I was like, this kind of crazy. I mean, again, not, not bad, not bad at all. um
00:22:07
matt
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:22:07
Charles
And like, I would absolutely wear that, you know, I wear it casually and I would definitely wear it to a ah reenactment. I wouldn't feel, you know, weird about that. But ah yeah, I think it's kind of it's cool to see that they're trying to do that though.
00:22:16
matt
Right, right.
00:22:19
Charles
Totally.
00:22:20
matt
Yeah, 100%. Like, HBT cloth is one of those for me, like, they i I don't think I've ever felt, and we actually might have talked about this the first time you're on, but like, I don't think I've ever seen a repro HVT that feels like an original.
00:22:24
Charles
Totally.
00:22:35
Charles
Yeah, i completely agree. like i I don't know what it is.
00:22:36
matt
Yeah.
00:22:37
Conor Fowler
They look like bad, they look fantastic, they look like shiny.
00:22:42
Charles
Yeah, like even the good ones, though. like There's just something about the hand feel on the original stuff.
00:22:46
matt
Yeah, exactly. It's not, it's always like a little bit too fluffy or not, and not dry enough, but like,
00:22:48
Charles
Mm-hmm.
00:22:52
Charles
Yeah.
00:22:53
matt
You know, like ah I've handled plenty of dead stock, HBT stuff from World War Two in the 50s. And like, there's just nothing there's nothing that compares to it on the modern market.
00:22:58
Charles
Yeah.
00:23:01
Charles
i I think the biggest thing, and i honestly, this would be a great question for my my friend who I did the Jungle Swarers with, Josh. He's like very knowledgeable about like the like textile um world of the 1940s and specifically like military stuff.
00:23:15
Charles
But like you know it's like the second you wash like original HVT fabric, like it just softens up in this way that like modern stuff, like you can watch it you wash it 50 times, it doesn't matter. um
00:23:25
matt
Yeah, totally.
00:23:27
Charles
It's, yeah, it's there's you know some stuff you just can't and can't replicate, I guess.
00:23:31
matt
Yeah, yeah, it's it's okay. That's also a very niche and nerdy thing to think and talk about.
00:23:38
Charles
it It is, but it also isn't to some degree, because I think this is something that, especially kind of in the, like, in the menswear world that, like, you know, we all are, have, you know, either two feet, a foot, or a few toes in, know, the three of us.
00:23:52
Charles
um But, like, it's...
00:23:53
matt
Right, right.
00:23:54
Charles
um You know guys want to look like, it want garments to fit and drape a certain way, right?
00:24:02
matt
Yeah.
00:24:03
Charles
a lot of that, like, you know, if you're shopping at the Real McCoys, for example, right? Like, a lot of that might be based on, like, historical, like, images that, like, either are on Instagram mood board or, like, whatever, right?
00:24:15
Charles
And you're like, you know, like, you want to look like Steve McQueen wearing the MA1 bomber, right?
00:24:20
matt
Yeah.
00:24:21
Charles
And so like where this kind of comes in for the fabric though, it's just like, if you can't nail the fabric, then it's not going to drape the right way.
00:24:29
matt
Totally.
00:24:29
Charles
And then you're going and you're going to look at yourself in the mirror and be like, why doesn't this look like, you know, you're not Steve McQueen, but B like the jacket is not like, it's not actually doing the thing that the jacket
00:24:36
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:24:41
Charles
is supposed to do because it's just the textile is different.
00:24:42
matt
Right.
00:24:44
Charles
um And I, I find that all the time talking to people where it's like, they can't put their finger on like, what doesn't look right about a garment, you know, again, because in their head, they want it to look a certain way.
00:24:55
Charles
And I'll say like, well, you know, For World War II stuff, it's like, well, you didn't size it correctly because you took like the size that you think fits you, not the one that like you're actually... like you know For example, like a tanker jacket you know is designed to be 10 inches above your above your chest size.
00:25:12
Charles
right like These were big, big garments.
00:25:12
matt
Right.
00:25:14
Charles
And and short, too. like you know They were cropped and they were very big, wide. You know, and like, you know you try on the size that, you know, you probably would have been issued, right?
00:25:25
Charles
And then you're like, oh, this is too big. So you size down and you're like, well, why isn't this look right? and It's like, well that's why it doesn't look right. It's because you're looking at all these photos of guys wearing tanker jackets that like look a certain way. And they it looks that way because they're they're big, you know?
00:25:38
matt
but Yeah, they're big and they have like 19 different undergarments underneath them, you know.
00:25:38
Charles
um
00:25:42
Charles
Yeah, that too. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. yeah or like Yeah, I mean, there's so many like little like stories like that, but I think that kind of like sums it up well. um So yeah, that's why being nerdy about this stuff does matter, because it actually does affect how it the garment looks on body.
00:26:00
Charles
Yeah.
00:26:01
matt
Right.
00:26:04
Conor Fowler
That's odd. I mean, so it's, it seems a little obvious, right? Like the super vintage stuff like has just been around for long time. And so it is
Denim Care and Fabric Longevity
00:26:19
Conor Fowler
softer. Right.
00:26:21
Conor Fowler
But I know that it's more, I know that it's more complicated than that.
00:26:21
Charles
Yeah, but I mean
00:26:23
Conor Fowler
and
00:26:25
Charles
Well, as Matt said, too, like you know he's handled dead stock HP, right HP that's like definitely not been washed, and like so have I. and like it It is distinctly different, um even that way.
00:26:37
Charles
i also think, too, again, like you know we're getting into like the...
00:26:37
Conor Fowler
right sure
00:26:37
matt
Yeah.
00:26:40
Charles
ah again, like, kind of the very the very nerdy side of things. You it's also, like, you know, we're washing stuff differently, right?
00:26:46
matt
Yeah, totally.
00:26:47
Conor Fowler
sure
00:26:47
Charles
It's, like, you know, like's yeah with jeans, for example, right? It's, like, you know, anybody who spends, like, you know, three, four hundred dollars on jeans now, right? Like, with, you know, a, you know, from a a nice Japanese maker, right?
00:26:59
Charles
Like, You're like, okay, well, I got to like wash these cold, got to hang dry, you know, like I'll use wool light or like, you know some other kind of, you know, gentle, you know, detergent.
00:27:09
Charles
And it's like, no, just throw that shit on like high heat and like wash the, I mean, that's how, you know, jeans in the 1940s, 50s and 60s, like that's how people were washing their jeans.
00:27:18
matt
Totally.
00:27:18
Charles
You know, they weren't, they weren't thinking about the longevity of their Japanese denim in the same way.
00:27:19
matt
Totally.
00:27:23
Charles
I mean, know, this is pretty well trod ground, but yeah.
00:27:23
matt
Right. i yeah, it is.
00:27:26
Charles
Yeah.
00:27:27
matt
And I, I am firmly in the don't treat shit preciously camp.
00:27:32
Charles
Absolutely.
00:27:32
matt
Like I call,
00:27:33
Conor Fowler
But you can't be drawing shit on high. You just can't be drawing shit on high. It's not good.
00:27:37
matt
I mean, i've I've been using a fucking dryer for my entire existence of 42 years, and like I've not had anything fall apart because of the dryer.
00:27:47
matt
you know like And I am notoriously hard on my clothing, but like, cold.
00:27:52
Conor Fowler
Well, it just does, I mean, it just does age the fabric, right?
00:27:57
matt
Yeah, but like, ah what a pair of jeans.
00:27:59
Conor Fowler
Is it not perceptibly?
00:28:00
matt
you you want, you want a pair of jeans to age. Like you don't want them to, you know, I've said this with our, you know, our Zoe interview from a month or two ago.
00:28:11
matt
Like, you know, if you, if you don't wash cotton regularly, it, that's why people get holes like in the crop, you know, like you have to, you know, I'm i'm not saying that everyone should use a ah dryer.
00:28:18
Charles
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:24
matt
Like that's my personal preference. Cause I'm lazy, but like, You know, that I want my jeans to look like a natural wear. I don't want, you know, like when I started, yeah like it was different.
00:28:32
Charles
Yeah. It's so...
00:28:37
matt
But now that's just, you know, at at this age and like with my lifestyle, shit holds up better because I clean it regularly.
00:28:46
Charles
Totally. That reminds me too. I mean, just again...
00:28:47
Conor Fowler
I'm not advocating not washing your clothes.
00:28:50
Charles
Yeah.
00:28:50
Conor Fowler
I'm saying if you wash them and then you dry them on high, that's bad for the clothes.
00:28:53
matt
Oh, I know, but I'm going back.
00:28:57
Conor Fowler
And that's like,
00:28:57
matt
Well, I'm going back to Charles's point. And like, that is what that is what denim, you know, the the denim that we all love and and rave about. Like, that's that's how it was treated. And so I'm going to treat it the same way.
00:29:11
Charles
Yeah, it's funny. I mean, like, I, like, recently, like ah you know, I... Yeah, i I was like thinking about when I first got into like raw denim, like so many of us, like, you know, I i was like in high school and like, it was like, you know, like kind of in the heritage moment, you know, of like the 2010s.
00:29:28
Charles
And like, you know, that was very much the era of like people telling you, like, don't wash like your jeans, you know? And I just like look back at like, I have all of these jeans that I spent so much money on and like just like these giant fucking crotch blowouts.
00:29:34
Conor Fowler
Oh yeah.
00:29:42
Charles
And if I had just been like washing them, like, you know, like I probably could have avoided a lot of them.
00:29:42
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:29:46
Conor Fowler
i I mean, I don't know that it's like the, the, like not washing them is causing it, right? Like what's causing it is the friction of your thighs rubbing together.
00:29:56
Charles
Well, no, they they they say, it don't they say it's just like just like the dirt like breeds? like I don't fucking Now, you know what? I'm just going to be talking out school.
00:30:04
Conor Fowler
see then we're getting See, then we're getting into we're getting into denim pseudoscience.
00:30:04
Charles
So, yeah.
00:30:08
matt
Well, it's a combination of the two things, the friction, but also the, you know, like like I said, cotton expands.
00:30:10
Charles
yeah
00:30:17
Conor Fowler
And I'm not a scientist, but this fucks shit up.
00:30:17
matt
and
00:30:22
matt
Yeah, but but to keep the cloth strong, you have to like you have to submerge it in water and clean it so that the the fibers contract again.
00:30:33
Conor Fowler
I'm not so advocating for not washing.
00:30:33
Charles
No,
00:30:35
Conor Fowler
That's never been a part of my clothing care.
00:30:35
matt
Oh, I know, but but that's you no that's what Charles was talking about.
00:30:37
Charles
I know. We're just... Yeah.
00:30:39
Conor Fowler
that what That was the thing.
00:30:40
matt
Yeah, like i
00:30:40
Charles
Thank you. Thank you.
00:30:41
Conor Fowler
I, of course, like, put your denim in the freezer. It will kill the germs, like that kind shit.
00:30:47
matt
yeah. yeah Oh, God, it's such ah such a time to be alive. But yeah, like i I get plenty of holes in other places, but like I haven't had a crotch hole from you know from the the same way of wearing jeans for like six months you know without washing
00:30:51
Charles
I love that. Yeah.
00:31:03
matt
in well over 15 years.
00:31:04
Charles
Yeah.
00:31:07
Charles
I know. mean, I feel the same way. It's like, I definitely like literally like every pair of jeans, like from my high school and like college years are like, like they all just have it. And then I haven't gotten one since like, yeah, it's kind of crazy.
00:31:18
matt
Right, yeah.
00:31:19
Charles
um Yeah. Anyway. Yeah.
00:31:23
matt
Anyway, well, you've been you've been writing a lot in recent memory about um special forces culture and how it's kind of like
00:31:27
Charles
Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:33
matt
penetrated, you know, penetrated society at large.
00:31:33
Charles
Sure.
00:31:36
matt
um You know, gee what do you think that has to do with? Like kind of the, I don't want to say, well I'll say it. Like, is it, you know, kind of generations of like military, ah proper like propaganda that, you know, so many people, myself and Connor included, we're like, oh yeah, we're going to be, you know, we're going to be in the military and and whatever.
00:31:59
Conor Fowler
I'm going fucking Navy SEAL. I'm six years old.
00:32:02
matt
Right, right.
00:32:02
Charles
ah census
00:32:03
matt
like you know But now it seems it seems even more so. like I can go pretty much anywhere and see someone wearing like tactical shit.
00:32:12
Charles
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think um this is, yeah, this you're totally right. This is a question I've been kind of like, you know, like wrestling with a bunch like over the past few
Popularization of Military Culture
00:32:23
Charles
months. And like, I would like to eventually, um for yeah, for for this to be part of like a larger project. um I think really a lot of it has to do with kind of, yeah,
00:32:38
Charles
two things. One is that like the, the kind of like the rise of like what I kind of call like the tactical military industrial complex.
00:32:46
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:32:46
Charles
So like kind of, you know, again, going back to actually like lot of these outdoor companies that we were talking about. um But, you know, kind of, you know, basically, like, you know, when the global war on terror started, like, you know, kind of the money spigots were turned on, right?
00:33:00
Charles
And, like, a whole industry, like, sprung up around, like, kind of making private, um you know, private label military gear, right? So not gear contracted by the military, but, you know, kind of gear made by private companies.
00:33:14
Charles
yeah I mean, 5.11, you know, would be, like, a great example, right? I mean, kind of a, you know, that's, like, the Walmart of, like, tactical gear, but, like, still, like, um,
00:33:18
matt
Right.
00:33:25
Charles
And so, like yeah, I mean, it's this this massive market like kind of like stood up overnight. um Well, not overnight. i mean, it took years and years. But um yeah i mean I always kind of point to like you know if you look at... um you know, kind of the the first special forces, you know, and like CIA kind of ah ground branch guys that were going into Afghanistan in 2001, right?
00:33:46
Charles
Like, they're all wearing like, you know, basically like Patagonia, like fishing vests, like, you know, dad, you know they look like dads on a fishing trip, mostly, you know, you
00:33:46
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:33:55
matt
Right.
00:33:57
Charles
And like, you know, they're just like, kind of like, here we are like in the mountains, you know, but there's a, um and like, you know there's been some like very interesting kind of like, real, like, you know, minutiae research done on like, what jackets, you know, were bought from what, you know, L.L.
00:34:13
Charles
Bean and from, you know, Columbia and like whatever, and you know, how they got there.
00:34:15
matt
Right.
00:34:17
Charles
But, um you know, and then like, you know, just a few years later, like those same, not those same men in particular, but like, you know, those same units, you know, were, you know, kind of like dripped out in like tactical gear.
00:34:30
Charles
And like tactical gear from companies that like basically just didn't exist, you know, a few years prior over like, you know, small, tiny contractors, like, I think of a company like, you know, like Cry Precision, right?
00:34:35
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:34:41
Charles
That like, you know, makes multicam, um And like a lot of other, um ah i mean, Multicam is like their big flagship, right? But like, you know, which is like a ubiquitous camo around the world now. um But like, you know, they made a lot of other tactical gear as well. um But like, you know, they basically, you know, were in their infancy when nine eleven happened, right? Yeah.
00:35:03
Charles
So yeah, so you've seen you have like this, like this, you know, that this industry that's like coming to life, right? You know, in these kind of early years of the global war on terror. um And then I think you kind of have this, um you know, kind of this like the cultural production, right? Of like,
00:35:21
Charles
ah a lot of media around um special forces and also just like military in general that was kind of coming out throughout, you know, like I think of something like Lone Survivor, right?
00:35:29
matt
Right.
00:35:34
Charles
That Mark mark Wahlberg movie, um you know, like other stuff, like, yeah.
00:35:36
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:37
Conor Fowler
But of course.
00:35:39
Charles
And like other, you know, just kind of, you know, other pieces of media like that. And I think what's kind of surprising now, and I kind of, you know, is like we're I feel like we're very much in like a kind of ah like a cultural like hangover from GWAT a lot, you know especially when it comes to like you know TV and film.
00:35:57
matt
Yeah.
00:35:59
Charles
like We're still kind of a yeah we're still kind of like going over the same ground over and over again.
00:36:05
matt
Right,
00:36:07
Charles
um yeah I mean, it's you know it's you know we talk about like ah you know kind of the ah like like the boomerang theory right of like... you know you like the the violence of the, you know, the violence of the colony, you know, kind of boomerangs back to the the metropole, right?
00:36:25
Charles
Like, you know, this kind of idea, you know, and and I think that like, you know i think that a lot of that idea like holds up.
00:36:25
matt
right. Yeah,
00:36:30
Charles
and I also think it applies to like pop culture as well, right?
00:36:33
matt
yeah totally, totally.
00:36:33
Charles
Like, you know, that's how you end up with like, with with ICE kind of dressing like, you know, they're about to do the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound, you know, when they're just, you know, in the Twin Cities.
00:36:42
matt
Yeah.
00:36:45
Charles
Yeah.
00:36:46
Conor Fowler
When you're just murdering, murdering US citizens.
00:36:47
matt
So, so something I just thought of, um, and it's kind of a thought experiment, but yeah do you think that, you know, say the, like,
00:36:52
Charles
yeah
00:37:02
matt
the SEALs and and other special forces in Vietnam that would wear 501s instead of, you know, their issue trousers when they were on missions, like if the internet had existed back then, or if there had at least been a way to, you know, because we've all seen these photos in the past 20 years, plenty.
00:37:09
Charles
Sure, yeah.
00:37:22
matt
um But do you think it would have had the same kind of effect? Like, the special forces guys would have been, or their style would have been as revered if it was, you know, readily available to like the masses for consumption.
00:37:27
Charles
Yeah.
00:37:35
matt
I mean, soldier fortune magazine, I guess is probably like pretty up there too. And it started in what the early eighties and ran for a very long time.
00:37:41
Charles
yeah
00:37:44
Charles
I think it's still around. um it's like It's like online only, I'm pretty sure, but um it is is still around.
00:37:45
matt
Is this still around?
00:37:48
matt
um Okay. i Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah.
00:37:51
Charles
um Yeah, so I mean, I think this is, again, something that I think about quite a bit. And I think it kind of points to something that... um Another one of my hobby horses. ah But I think what's what's interesting that happens, right, is that, you know...
00:38:10
Charles
During the mid-century, and like you know so basically, let's say from World War II through the early nineteen seventy s you know the military in particular like is a mostly a a conscript army, conscript military.
00:38:23
matt
Right. Right.
00:38:24
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:38:24
Charles
And so when you're getting a you know basically a crosscut of American society. um And you see this in Vietnam, like with kind of the, the culture of patches and embroidery and like, you know like all of the kind of what they call like morale patches, right?
00:38:41
Charles
They're all very reflective of predominant pop culture in the civilian, you in America, right? In the civilian society, right? So like, you know, themes like, you know, like Snoopy, for example, right?
00:38:53
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:54
Charles
Being so prominent, right? Like, you know, Snoopy is not a, you know, a, a character of like the military, right? You know, like it's, it's a, um you know, beloved cartoon of, you know, of children and adults, right? Like even in the 1960s.
00:39:10
matt
Yeah, totally.
00:39:12
Charles
And so, so you, you see that military culture is much more responsive and reflective of um predominant like civilian pop culture, right?
00:39:22
matt
Right.
00:39:22
Charles
Because like, that's where these people kind of exist, right? You know, they, they are truly like kind of, um, you know, you could say like citizen soldiers, right? um
00:39:32
matt
Right.
00:39:33
Charles
And then kind of, you know, when the military goes to all volunteer um in the mid-1970s, like this starts to like kind of fade away because, you know, its own, you know, kind of like distinct culture and like, you know really starts to bubble up, right? So like, you know when you look at kind of the patches of the Vietnam era that would have been, you know, again, like Snoopy, like now might be like a Spartan helmet, right?
00:39:57
matt
Right.
00:39:57
Charles
Right. Like, which like means basically nothing to the vast majority. I mean, this, this is also downstream of like, we don't have a monoculture anymore. Right.
00:40:05
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:05
Charles
Like in general, but like, you know, I do think that, you know, um, yeah, it's like, I, I think you'd have to ask a lot of people on the street, like what is a Spartan helmet have to do with anything as opposed to like Snoopy.
00:40:19
Charles
Right.
00:40:19
matt
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:40:19
Conor Fowler
Or like the,
00:40:19
Charles
Yeah.
Cultural Impact of Military Styles
00:40:21
Conor Fowler
what is it, the like Greek, they write stuff like in the Greek alphabet and it's like an M4, you know?
00:40:21
matt
what
00:40:28
Charles
Yeah.
00:40:32
Charles
Yeah, and like, you know, like, there's like all like, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of like, that kind of like, ah Spartan iconography that like, you know, is very popular or was very popular. um i think now it's kind of viewed as like, being a little cringe.
00:40:43
Conor Fowler
Punisher shit.
00:40:46
Charles
um
00:40:47
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:40:47
Charles
And yeah, I mean, the Punisher skull is another great example, right?
00:40:50
matt
Oh God. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:51
Charles
Yeah.
00:40:52
matt
That's, that's probably the funniest one for me. Cause if you've ever, if you know anything about the Punisher, it makes zero sense whatsoever.
00:40:56
Charles
Yeah.
00:41:00
Charles
No, it's it's crazy. Yeah, it's I was talking to an editor about writing something about that for GQ when the new Punisher movie came out. It kind of didn't really come together because partially I was like, I feel like this has been written quite a bit, but it it is like very...
00:41:12
matt
Right. Right.
00:41:14
Charles
like you know like that was like really that was popularized by like the SEAL team that ah that Chris Kyle was in, right that they started to stencil all of their gear um and their trucks with ah with the Punisher skull.
00:41:23
Conor Fowler
Good old Chris Kyle.
00:41:27
matt
Right.
00:41:27
Charles
And then it kind of like does kind of seep out from there. um But yeah, no i mean I think that to answer your question, right i think it's I think it's more telling that yeah in that time period, like you know, in the 1960s, like, seals kind of turned to, like, 501s as opposed to, say, like, you know, ah you know private, you know, kind of private-made, let's say, you know, because these and things didn't exist yet, like, you know, cry precision G3 pants, right?
00:41:58
matt
Right, right. Right.
00:41:58
Charles
Or, like, you know, forge-line Patagonia, like, you know, tactical trousers that, like, you know, most, you know, Most other guys in the military, like, don't have access to or, like, you know, the ability to wear, but because, like, you know, they are special forces, they can wear kind of whatever they want to some extent. um So, yeah, I think it's, I think it's a kind of more telling that they, like, turn to, like, us you know, to, you know, to Levi's, right, than, like, something that was made specifically for, like, tactical weapons.
00:42:26
Charles
Yeah, I mean, yeah. And like, I mean, I do find the ah the gene the Navy SEAL genes thing like really interesting because it's like, one it's one of those stories that kind of gets like over-hyped, you know, and like kind of like, it's it's a it's it's not quite urban legend.
00:42:32
matt
Yeah, same.
00:42:40
Charles
It's not urban legend. um But it's it is something that I think is like, there's a little too much emphasis on sometimes where it's like the vast majority of guys were were not doing this.
00:42:46
matt
Yeah, 100%.
00:42:49
Charles
Like majority Navy SEALs. Yeah.
00:42:51
matt
Right, right.
00:42:51
Conor Fowler
Well, it's kind of like wearing the band's t-shirt to the band's show. You know, you don't want to, you don't want to have that kind of energy and thus the vibe at once.
00:43:04
Charles
it it also just like it makes no true sense for like what they were trying to yeah you know it's just like you're wearing cotton like tight cotton in in you know kind of a a wet jungle environment it's like not not the best um
00:43:16
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:43:17
matt
Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, but also I was not in the Vietnamese jungle.
00:43:23
Charles
Yeah, I mean, someone, we should link to it Someone wrote, like, a really good long piece about it and, like, did some kind of interesting research. I think it was on heddles. Like, this was, like, years and years ago.
00:43:33
Charles
Yeah.
00:43:34
Conor Fowler
Huh.
00:43:35
matt
I think I remember that. Holy shit.
00:43:38
Charles
Yeah. I thought it was cool because he like, I don't know the writer's name, but he like kind of did what I would have done, which is like, he went to like the U S military forum, which is like a great, you know, like old school internet forum, you know, and like found some like, you know, old Navy SEALs to talk to about it, you know, and like kind of, you know, was able to kind of bring it together from there.
00:43:48
matt
Oh, fantastic resource. Yeah.
00:43:55
matt
Right.
00:43:58
Charles
And I was like, that's, that's cool. Um, yeah.
00:44:02
matt
Yeah.
00:44:02
matt
What have, yeah. Uh, the, the amount of times I've read the tiger stripe threads on military U S military forum is, is God, I know man.
00:44:03
Charles
Um,
00:44:10
Charles
Owen, man.
00:44:12
matt
Oh, Owen is the, he is the goat of camouflage.
00:44:16
Charles
Yeah, he really is. I mean, I want his book to come out sometime, someday.
00:44:19
matt
Yeah, me. Yeah, same, same. He's like, he's always been super chill too. Like anytime I've ever had a question, you know, if I, if I can't figure out something on my own, like he's always been down to help.
00:44:32
Charles
A few years ago when I was in LA, was able to like go to his like go to his house and see his like collection. And that was like, that was something quite special.
00:44:39
matt
Oh God. Yeah.
00:44:40
Conor Fowler
Wow.
00:44:42
Charles
That was really cool.
00:44:43
matt
Yeah, and he's one of those dudes that started collecting this shit when nobody cared and has has just consistently found and acquired like the coolest stuff possible.
00:44:48
Charles
Yeah.
00:44:54
matt
and yeah like I don't know. I would trust him with any fucking military camo questions.
00:45:01
Charles
Totally. Absolutely. um Yeah. im fact um What else do you guys want to talk about? ah
00:45:12
matt
well, like let's, you know, we we don't have a ton of time left, but
00:45:17
Charles
Yeah, should this be like, ah not to not to kind of you know say this myself, but like, should we should we do a two-parter?
00:45:17
matt
but but
00:45:23
Charles
Should we do this again?
00:45:24
matt
I think so.
00:45:25
Charles
feel like,
00:45:25
matt
yeah Cause that you know, there's a lot that we haven't covered, um, especially with regards to vintage, vintage clothing. That's not a military base. Um, which I think, you know, I think the three of us all have some thoughts on that.
00:45:37
Charles
Yeah.
00:45:39
matt
Um, But one...
00:45:41
Charles
Yeah, I mean, like it was just Brimfield up here um a few weeks ago.
00:45:43
matt
Yeah, right, right.
00:45:45
Charles
I'd be more than happy to talk about like yeah like the Brimfield piece i I wrote last year. um But yeah, no, you were saying, you were about to ask question.
00:45:52
matt
Well, one one thing I thought of when we were kind of preparing for this today,
00:45:58
Charles
Mm-hmm.
00:45:58
matt
um as as a camo aficionado, are there any patterns that you absolutely despised you know before that you've started... They've kind of worm their way into a soft spot for you.
00:46:14
Charles
Oh, that's such a good question. um Because I do like to think of myself as like, I'm a certified hater, for sure.
00:46:21
matt
Oh yeah, same, same.
00:46:21
Charles
yeah,
00:46:22
matt
kind Anybody can attest to that for me too.
00:46:24
Charles
yeah. yeah I mean, man, what am I going to say here? I I really do go back and forth on multicam. Like, it's very unpopular to say that, like, you like it now, because, like, you know, it's kind of just so, you know, it has been interesting to see, like, kind of the camo collector community, like, really, like, turn on it, right?
00:46:37
matt
Right.
00:46:47
matt
Yeah.
00:46:47
Charles
Because, like, you know, when it first came out, it was like, oh, this is, like, the coolest, you know, the coolest shit ever.
00:46:52
Charles
And, it like, you know, it looks great, and, like, it's being used by, like, all of the high-speed guys, you know, and like, so like, they get to like street cred that way.
00:46:52
matt
Right.
00:46:59
Charles
um But then kind of as soon as it starts to like knock out like every like national and regional camouflage pattern, it's like, oh, no, like we're losing the biodiversity of, you know, our environment.
00:47:10
Charles
and Like, it's all just turning into multi, it's an invasive species.
00:47:11
matt
Right.
00:47:11
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:47:11
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:47:13
matt
I mean, i I pretty much hate any camouflage post-Woodland. I've come around to a couple of them.
00:47:20
Charles
Yeah.
00:47:22
matt
you know Any any like fucking ACU can go fuck itself. ah yeah and I don't love OCP, Scorpion, or whatever. like you know
00:47:33
Charles
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:33
matt
there's There's some cools cool aspects, but like it just doesn't strike me as visually appealing as older stuff.
00:47:39
Conor Fowler
I feel like there's a limit to, there's a limit to creativity also.
00:47:41
Charles
I had...
00:47:45
Conor Fowler
Like you can only reinvent the wheel so many times, like the environments are not changing. And so the camouflage cannot change.
00:47:53
matt
Right. Well, that I mean...
00:47:54
Charles
I mean, that's actually, that's a cool frontier though. Now I'm thinking about this. Someone should be like designing camouflages for like, you know the, the post, ah you know, climate change future, you know, like we're going to, we're going to need lush.
00:48:03
matt
Right.
00:48:04
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:48:04
matt
Oh, 100%.
00:48:05
Conor Fowler
Always hot.
00:48:06
matt
Well, I guess...
00:48:06
Conor Fowler
ah
00:48:06
Charles
Yeah. We're going to need lush jungle camo for like, you know, the Northeast, you know, like we got to get on that.
00:48:10
matt
Yeah.
00:48:11
Charles
Yeah.
00:48:12
matt
which Which also, like, Connor's point makes me think, like, what so if if everything has already been done... why why do Why is there a need to change uniforms and camouflages?
00:48:27
Conor Fowler
to make money for contractors.
00:48:28
matt
I mean, yes, that that's the obvious answer. But like, I mean, from a more aesthetic.
00:48:32
Charles
don't really if I agree with that answer, but I understand the point.
00:48:35
matt
Yeah, yeah. But like, you know, from ah from an aesthetic or a um or like a tactical standpoint, why why did we need ACU? Why did we need OCP? Like there were there were already things that could have been easily adapted.
00:48:50
Charles
Yeah, I mean, just in in respect for respect of time, i would love to answer this on the other side because I could really go on and on about it.
00:48:50
Conor Fowler
people like to fix it's not broken.
00:48:59
Charles
um
00:48:59
matt
Right. Yeah,
00:49:00
Charles
but like and But I think that could be a good place for us to maybe to to pick up because like I could definitely, this like, this hits on a lot of work that I've done and um a lot of my kind of like my theories of of modern camouflage and kind of what the,
00:49:04
matt
total. Totally.
00:49:16
Charles
the modern like kind of like battle landscape kind of looks like and how that's kind of changed what's needed from a uniform or kind of what isn't needed, which think is kind of more interesting.
00:49:20
matt
Right.
00:49:26
matt
Totally. Totally.
00:49:28
Charles
um
00:49:28
Conor Fowler
And that's next time on Apocalypse Duts.
00:49:30
Charles
Yeah.
00:49:31
matt
Yeah, we'll book a part two here in the next like month or so.
00:49:32
Charles
yeah
00:49:36
matt
and And yeah, go into go into that.
00:49:36
Charles
Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.
00:49:39
Conor Fowler
Because this was awesome.
00:49:40
matt
Yeah, this has been fantastic. And I don't know, maybe maybe me and Connor are way better than we were four years ago interviewing people. I think i think that might be the case, not to toot our own board.
00:49:51
Conor Fowler
Well, the audio definitely sounds better.
00:49:51
Charles
I mean, you know, like, you gotta get into You what mean? Like, it takes time, you know?
00:49:56
matt
Yeah, so totally.
00:49:56
Conor Fowler
yeah yeah, for sure.
00:49:57
matt
Yeah.
00:49:58
matt
Yeah. we We've been learning journalism for four years. so
00:49:58
Conor Fowler
So that was, that was right.
00:50:01
Charles
Yeah.
00:50:01
Conor Fowler
We we didn't go to J school either.
00:50:02
Charles
Yeah. Yeah. Oh,
00:50:06
matt
Well, yeah, man, one more time. Thank you for coming on. Tell everyone, tell people where they can find you and or your any writing you want to divulge.
00:50:09
Charles
my God, of course.
00:50:16
Charles
Yeah, yeah, sure. um i mean, you can kind of always find me on Substack, ah which is kind of combat threads. Also, thank you.
00:50:24
Conor Fowler
I recommend.
00:50:26
Charles
thank you
00:50:26
matt
Highly recommend, yes.
00:50:28
Charles
We're like, yeah, again, like I'm kind of talking about a lot of this stuff and like linking out to, ah yeah kind of other work that I'm doing. Like I kind of, I just gave a gave a Zoom lecture at a museum in St.
00:50:41
Charles
Paul that kind of covers a lot of the rise of of multicam. That was like for a design museum.
00:50:46
Conor Fowler
I'll watch that.
00:50:46
Charles
So it definitely would be kind of in this wheelhouse.
00:50:46
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:50:49
Charles
um And then like Instagram, which is just like my name, you know, kind of it's Charles McFarlane. Not really anywhere else. I lurk on Twitter still, unfortunately, but I'm not going to plug that in.
00:50:58
matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:58
Conor Fowler
The substack is definitely worth a subscribe. Like it's really, really good.
00:51:02
matt
Yeah, it is. It certainly is.
00:51:04
Conor Fowler
I read it every, every time that it gets published by this lazy buffoon.
00:51:09
matt
Right.
00:51:10
Conor Fowler
ah
00:51:11
Charles
mean I mean, think what's what's what's interesting about it is that like I like that like I have readers who like are kind of in the menswear community and like in the kind of like men's style world. And then I also have like you know kind of readers who are very much in like the military space.
00:51:25
Charles
And you know it's like i kind of think about that as like you know that really covers the breadth of my work. um and And I like to see that like kind of combat threats can kind of hold both of those communities like kind of together to some extent.
00:51:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah, it's a cool, it's a cool universe. It really is. i mean, it's like you have your stuff that you have been talking about forever. And then I feel like you have stuff that you're like making headway on. So.
00:51:52
Charles
Yeah, I definitely see it as like my notebook. You know, like that's that's kind of how I think about my my Substack for sure.
00:51:56
Conor Fowler
hmm.
00:51:59
Charles
So it's a lot of stuff that like I'm working through um and not, you know, might not be totally polished. but
00:52:07
Conor Fowler
Well, it's polished.
00:52:08
matt
Well, yeah, well, it's, it's very interesting.
00:52:09
Charles
Well, thanks again, guys.
00:52:11
matt
Yeah, man.
00:52:11
Conor Fowler
Yeah, dude.
00:52:11
matt
Thank you. Um, everyone. Thank you for listening. Um, we are at apocalypse duds on Instagram, apocalypse duds at gmail.com. Uh, I am Matt Smith at rebels rogues.
00:52:24
Conor Fowler
And I am Connor Fowler, at Connor Flower.
00:52:28
matt
And we'll see you next week.
00:52:31
Conor Fowler
Ta-ta!