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"It's Clobberin Time!" with Tony Sylvester and Dr. Cyana Madsen
0 Playsin 4 hours
This week, we’re elated to have two returning guests, back together, the Power Couple of Clothing, the founders of Madsen Sylvester Studios, two of the most knowledgeable purveyors of vintage, and newly published authors, Tony Sylvester and Dr. Cyana Madsen. With the excellent newly published book, An Informal Guide to Workwear, we wanted to catch up about the inspiration and process of publishing. We chat about French Workwear, the origin of the word textile, the history of indigo, functionality in clothing, finding Carhartt through hip-hop, identifying yourself through what you wear, and as always, so much more!
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Transcript
Introduction to Apocalypse Duds Special Episode
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a special episode of Apocalypse Duds. I am your host Connor Fowler.
Overview of New Projects and Book Discussion
00:00:11
Speaker
and I am your co-host Matt Smith. and this evening we welcome back the supremely charming A.M. Sylvester and Dr. Syana Madsen.
00:00:22
Speaker
Long time listeners may have heard our previous interviews with them, but if you're new, Tony He's a writer and musician. Sayana a curator and the other half, or perhaps more than half, of Madsen Sylvester Studios. We're here to talk about the new book, An Informal Guide to Workwear, which is out now and has the dubious distinction of being the only book I've read this
Relocation Reflections: Urban to Coastal Living
00:00:44
Speaker
year. But we also want to talk about the studio and anything else you guys have in the works.
00:00:50
Speaker
Welcome back.
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. how How are things on your side of the pond?
00:00:59
Speaker
A bit of a loaded question, you know, sorry. Sorry. I mean, i mean unfortunately, not dissimilar to how they are your side of the pond, but, you know, right right we move. Yeah, yeah. Maybe move out of the country. We'll see. We'll Because you guys are in a landscape.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So we moved from London five years ago, pretty much now, to this town on the coast, which is about an hour outside of London. um which is like, it's like a Royal Harbor. It's like, it's kind of, it has the most beautiful architecture, but it's pretty like, it's kind of run down.
Creative Community Dynamics and Challenges
00:01:39
Speaker
I never wanted to not live in a city, but you and another guest who lives out there have really made that area look very persuasive.
00:01:48
Speaker
oh now That's the that's the social media edit. well i I live in Baltimore. I like, I like run down stuff. i mean i think that that's like i think that that's like the whole you know it's it's history built into a building um yeah 100 like we have we have we we have a great uh we call it great too we have listings various different listings of buildings here and we have more grade two listed georgian or regency buildings than edinburgh bath and and people travel to edinburgh bath to see the architecture so it's like come here man we got it too wow
00:02:24
Speaker
okay anyway that's a tour is full of Hey, I mean, you know, it's it's good for everyone if people come there and they're like, hey, this is this is cool.
00:02:38
Speaker
And it just the generally the number of cool places in the world increases. That's a win.
The Impact of Urban Migration on Small Towns: Gentrification vs. Revitalization
00:02:44
Speaker
Totally. Well, we're trying to make it a bit cooler, I suppose. It's got a lot to recommend. Yeah, no, there's ah there's a lot. And there's a lot of great people down here. like we've we've met There's people who who are like similar to us in terms of like,
00:02:57
Speaker
where they are in terms of like not much investment but a lot of like maybe cultural capital or a lot of um or a lot of enthusiasm who are who are doing things on the same level as us yeah you know it feels a lot more like i mean as every kind of big city becomes unlivable yeahally um you know you get a lot of people moving down like there's there's a phrase they have here, they call it DFLs down from London, all the people that kind of like move and the pipeline comes down here. and there's, you know, there's positives and negatives to it. There's obviously, you know, the gentrification aspect. A lot of people have second homes down here and they don't actually like live and work and contribute to the community. um
00:03:41
Speaker
But then there's positives too, which is people come down with like this kind of renewed energy that they can do things down here that you wouldn't be able to do in a big city and a lot of that of course is like creative things because you just you need the space and time to be able to do it and you have a bit more of that down here so yes it's you know you hope it's reciprocal or it's like doing something to to you know it's embedded in the community and it's not just kind of people coming down as kind of dilettantes in a kind of deprived coastal seaside
Social Life and Games: English Pool and Snooker
00:04:12
Speaker
town. um
00:04:13
Speaker
But yeah, so we're hopefully you have to think about it. Yeah, I'm sure because we had another person on the show who lives there who sells vintage. Yeah.
00:04:26
Speaker
wait no no she's a more specific oh margot well that's what margaret's four miles away margaret is oh and margaret yeah yeah like but it's really close and also but that has a lot more that that's a lot more yeah don't know how would you say it not that's it's cool It's much cooler than where we are.
00:04:46
Speaker
we're like gar we're a bit like We're a bit quieter and calmer than that. that it's like That's like East London on sea. We like going there oh yeah and doing things and then coming back yeah to town you guys god we know and it's like It's like a little aspirational, you know, because I think slightly older than me.
00:05:04
Speaker
But like if I'm able to have that attitude about stuff when I am older, that will be like, you'll be in the money, right? Yeah. yeah When you reach this advanced stage. Right, exactly right. When you just have done so much shit, you have done an insane amount of shit.
00:05:24
Speaker
I mean, thank you. It doesn't, you know, there's still so much shit
Book Genesis and Evolution: An Informal Guide to Workwear
00:05:28
Speaker
to do though. That's the problem. Always, it never ends. I do and do have one random question because I have recently become obsessed with watching English pool.
00:05:39
Speaker
it Are there good pool spots in Ramsgate?
00:05:44
Speaker
Where's the pool hall? There is one. Do they play snooker? i also love watching snooker, but I'm talking more like English. Honestly, it's like you get much more pool being played than snooker, but English pool, because it's much more like in pubs. Like snooker, you have to go to like a snooker because the tables are so much bigger and it's like there's so much more like involved. So it's a bit more like bats in private spaces that you know we have to pay to get to. like not Not a class thing, just more like there's a barrier to it. Well, I'm a member of the club that I'm a member of oh yeah in London, in the neighborhood we used to live in.
00:06:21
Speaker
It's an old 19th century working class club called the Mild May. And they have a massive... Is it pool? they have massive snooker tables. Snooker. Oh, yeah. I really want to play snooker. It seems very it like very hard, but also just really fun.
00:06:37
Speaker
I mean, pool's much easier when you're drinking. Oh, totally. I mean, many things are, but... Anyway. Anyway, so I guess to start things off, um congratulations on the book. I keep meaning to order a copy and keep forgetting to order a copy. um But how how, you know,
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah, we'll figure it out. But ah how did it come about? Just kind of the backstory. Backstory was that um there's a guy called wes robinson who's a really good friend of mine who's an illustrator and yeah and we we love Wes so anyway so so we were pitching to publishers a very very different book and then and then they were like well we don't really like that book but we really like you so then it it molded into what they felt was needed or what what they felt was you know possible based on
00:07:39
Speaker
based on you know, our interests and our expertise.
Illustrative Collaboration with Michael Parkin
00:07:43
Speaker
So it so it was um but that' so that's kind of where so that's kind of where it is. And it's interesting because the idea of actually sitting down and writing a text in terms of like,
00:07:53
Speaker
a big text would be anathema. i wouldn't know where to start, but the fact that really what it is, is kind of the way I've written commercially for like 15 years is this, but then this is now a book.
00:08:04
Speaker
So it was, it was nice to be able to like, I didn't really have to change a form of my writing that much. It was just more like putting it together. So it's more like a compendium of, of writing rather than like, yeah.
00:08:15
Speaker
It seems perfect, like a perfect pairing. Cause I was going through it even, And one of the first things that I noticed is the weight of the pages and the kind of heft of the book.
00:08:30
Speaker
I mean, honestly, the book and everyone said, as soon as I saw it, I had nothing to do with the layout. And then the illustrator, actually this guy called Michael Parkin, um who was kind of writing almost to order, like he, sorry, he was almost working to order. So he was receiving the chapters and then drawing them. And it was like, my God, this is really, And then when the final book came in, I was blown away by what they had done in terms of layout, the choices they'd made in terms of like paperweight, fonts, layout, and then that D boss on the cover, like the deep D boss.
00:08:59
Speaker
Yeah. I was like, that's fucking incredible. and that's what everyone everyone has noticed. And even to when the book launched, the designer came over to me. He's like, what do you think of the book? And I said, it's really good. Thanks so much. And he was going on about the deboss. And then every member of staff came over and they started talking about how you know how technical it was. And I was like, no, no, this is amazing. So yeah, I'm really, really pleased.
00:09:22
Speaker
So how i know Tony, I know you've been into Worthwear and Syana. You're obviously a clothing maven. um You know, do how how long did the research process and the writing process take? um And mainly as you can see, when you read it, it's, it was probably about a year, would say, wouldn't you say? Yeah. Yeah. Because it was like, a lot of it was putting together things I'd kind of already written or stuff that was kind of floating around then collating that and then also writing to like, to task.
Cultural History of Workwear
00:10:01
Speaker
So like, and then obviously working on like an intro and then, and then it was working out what were big features that were really, so obviously like the French work where chapter, the jeans, probably the Red Wing boots. And then that was probably it. They were like the big chapters where it's like, because there's so, they have culturally so much, they talk so much about the history of, you know,
00:10:25
Speaker
Because it's not the history of clothing is as much as it's the history of work. Because really the whole point of of of this is that there was a point where it was cheaper to make clothing to give to someone to wear to work than it was to replace the worker.
00:10:41
Speaker
Right. so it just just But like that point happened only in like the 19th, early 19th century. Before then, it was just like, let's replace the guy. where suddenly once clothing production became cheaper, it was like, no, we can just give them better clothes.
00:10:55
Speaker
so it's ah So that's really why the kind of the history sort starts there. So really it's kind of a history more of like class, you know, of the working class and clothing and politics and culture really is as much as it is about clothes.
Alternative Historical Perspectives in Writing Style
00:11:11
Speaker
That's why, you know,
00:11:14
Speaker
That's the show too, right? I mean, so i wanted to highlight some writing that I thought was especially good. And Matt and I have talked about this. It is an eye-watering figure considering the tasks they were tailored for and the men whose social status and income meant taking on such perilous work, digging for gold or coal in the semi-lit gloom.
00:11:35
Speaker
but amazing writing such fucking good writing and that's not even a spoiler that's like on the first page thank you thanks very much yeah i mean that's the thing i really wanted to get across it's just like it doesn't it's just like it's so much more than like so i i think a lot of clothing writing is really like the history of the makers you know for example or the history obviously it's like It's also the history of rich people, let's be honest, because it's really like who who are these guys and what did they commission and did they commission it for? and So this book is the antithesis of that. It's really like, okay, well, what clothes were made for function and who was wearing them?
00:12:16
Speaker
So it's the other side of that coin, you know, which is tight. It's it's like the Howard Zinn people's history of America, like I mean, that's the history it's the history of work.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I've always thought of him as the Howard Zinn of our household.
Personal Significance of Workwear Items
00:12:33
Speaker
That's great. Yeah, you know you can't afford to be on train.
00:12:40
Speaker
So I guess that kind of answered the question that we were going to ask about narrowing down kind of the essential list of workwear. But it's also very personal. There's a lot of things that aren't on there. I don't particularly wear type ones or like denim jackets. so They don't resonate with me, although they are. Yeah, same. so So for me, it was just like I'd rather talk about the chalk coat.
00:13:02
Speaker
you know So it's just like, so I made you know what a French wear jacket. So I made decisions about about my interests. it's It's not meant to be exhaustive. I think it's like 22, 21, 22 items. So it was really more like, okay, well, these the things I think have like the richest stories. They're all sorts of things I feel that like resonate most with me. And maybe there's there's a couple of things in there, like the bow tie or the beret, are work wear, but aren't necessarily considered work wear. Like you'd never be, wouldn't before this probably have read an article about them being considered work wear. So, you know, I'd rather write about that than like a
00:13:37
Speaker
yeah like a don know whatever I've never put together the bow element of work wear, but it makes sense. And when Connor and I were preparing, you know, like um'm I'm very much into French work wear and American like tour, you know, tour jackets and coats and things. And like, you know, one of the things that I've always noticed is the sleeves are always short because you did not want to get them caught in a machine.
00:14:02
Speaker
So the bow tie makes total sense in that context. And I was like, like, you know, one of those little light bulb moments. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. it doesn't have any of the frippery of like a four in hand, which is basically says I don't have to worry about work.
00:14:16
Speaker
Yeah, right. yeah Right. And it looks much better than tucking of a traditional tie into your shirt or whatever. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. ah Were there some things that you thought would be included that didn't end up making the cut?
00:14:30
Speaker
No. There's definitely sleepless nights we wake up and go like, fuck, why didn't I write about that? Or the other way around, which is just like, I find out new bits of information. Because the thing is, it's such a knotty, you know, contested thing. I'm definitely not trying to say this is the history of work, whereas as much as it's a history of work where, and and it's like, and um that's why I think maybe like personal stories are kind of interesting as well in the sense of like, made you know, it's, um yeah.
Collaborative Writing Process
00:15:04
Speaker
So no, there's nothing really left out in that in that sense. No subjects left out. This is a good place, I think, for the textaire revelation, which in Derek Guy's intro, ah he says, we know this etymologically. Ultimately, clothing is a form of storytelling. We know this etymologically. Textile and text share the Latin root textaire, meaning to weave.
00:15:30
Speaker
This is a book about those stories stitched into cloth, and I mean... Come on. it's Just, just, done dere just read the intro. It's really good. The intro is really fucking good. And the whole book is like, yeah. And how, how did that come about Derek writing the intro for this? I mean, I think, I think maybe I'd, I think maybe I'd, uh, accrued a lot of, um, bank with Derek because i've written a lot for him oh Cool.
00:15:59
Speaker
In the sense of like, i've but you know, maybe been a bit of a like, he's a vox pop for him. Especially for put this on stuff. Like as' a few times he's written to me, was like, hey, can I get quote from you about X? Or, you know, can we talk about that? So it's just like, I feel like I was, I was like, hey, how would you like to write the intro? And he was like straight on it. Absolutely. I'd love to Oh, that's great. So he got that first. So he kind of got an early copy of like the the kind of rough of it and then and then went from there. So, yeah, super supportive. And also, I mean, if you want to talk about there's no better writer around who's linking culture with clothing. Agreed.
00:16:35
Speaker
Agreed. He's honestly maybe the only menswear writer that I still read regularly. Yeah. like you know And this also just goes to show that all of us in this little you know pocket of our of our world and subculture, like if you meet someone and you kind of, you kind of like,
00:16:55
Speaker
I don't want to say earn their respect, but like you kind of come to a mutual respect. Like it, it pays dividends. Like, you know, it's great to connect with the people that, that have like a similar mindset and that think about things on the same type of wave wing.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, it's part of the barter culture in this case, it's just kind of bartering work rather than bartering, you know, clothes or records, you know? Yeah. race Right. Right. Early on.
00:17:21
Speaker
And he said he would come on the show, but he would not talk about himself because he finds that boring. Yeah.
Research Approaches: Academic vs. Commercial
00:17:28
Speaker
Which is just like very, very, very classy.
00:17:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. He's a, he's a good one. I was going to also say, cause we read a bunch of interviews and you always shout out Dr. Sion and Madsen, which is great too. I mean, that's like, uh, I don't know. Everyone should be doing that kind of stuff.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's like she was incredibly helpful during the, I mean, I think we both bounce lots of things off each other when it comes to writing and it comes to culture. I mean, it's just like we both work as each other's researchers and we both work as each other's editors, I would say.
00:18:05
Speaker
Which is beautiful. That's like so nice. Yeah, yeah. And wholesome. Yeah, that's that's kind of like, that's kind of a dream, you know, like for a whimsical or romantic kind of person like myself, you know.
00:18:18
Speaker
It sounds sounds like great. like editing Editing each other is super romantic. love peculiar yeah mean you know Hallmark isn't making a movie about that, but like you know do we really need a Hallmark movie about a couple editing a book together?
00:18:35
Speaker
no it's nice because I think we come from different kind of research and writing practices. what's nice said Because you're real, like legit. yeah exactly well you nailed it life depends what you know you have a PhD well you know you did the entire you did the entire you did the whole thing i did I did do the whole thing but um But like I've done commercial, you know, commercial writing in the past. Yeah. Obviously it's Tony's commercial and editorial background is really strong. And so I think because so much of the emphasis for me in the last kind of 10 years has been on academic writing, which can get quite philosophical and quite conceptual. It's nice to have someone who can kind of ground you back in like, okay, but actually what are you trying to say here? And,
00:19:30
Speaker
and And then vice versa, it's like, you know, when he's doing something like with his book, doing something that is really research forward. to to kind of sit down and go, okay, but have you thought about it this way? Like, obviously say you're drawing on your own research bank and your own interests, but have you put it kind of in perspective in this kind of landscape?
Writing Challenges: Perspectives and Sources
00:19:52
Speaker
And I think it hopefully enriches each other's work to have a different perspective. It does, because I've read, but I have read you both.
00:20:00
Speaker
So it's like, I feel like it, I feel like it's, ah ah it's opposites, right? And like opposites are attractive. Like Matt and I are not very similar, but we're kind of similar.
00:20:10
Speaker
yeah i think we're the paula abdul and mc scat cat of like like menswear writing yes i' nice stra oh always always gets a But who's who? No, it's just like, well, because I didn't have an appreciation for for academic writing, obviously, before Sienna was doing her PhD. Well, no, probably when you were doing your MA. And, of course, the idea of just like you set out, you say, this is what I want to achieve.
00:20:39
Speaker
And then you state your facts. And then you sum up at the end saying, so this is what I've said and this is what I've proved. found that approach really interesting because I get lost in the weeds because I'm yeah quite i found quite i quite flowery and romantic when it comes to writing. like I really want to convey a feeling over anything else. like i don't i'm definitely a feelings over facts kind of guy, you know snowflake kind of so so it's like so So having that kind of rig, having access to academic rigor was super helpful for something like this. yeah you know yeah Because all these sentences are just like tight.
00:21:15
Speaker
It's a really tight book. Thank you. It also kind of goes back.
Importance of Research in Workwear History
00:21:21
Speaker
I think it kind of goes back to something that she said, which is like it, the, you know, writing about this topic,
00:21:27
Speaker
and kind of the angle that you that you approach it from is definitely a personal thing. And it comes from you know years of handling garments and and learning things on your own.
00:21:40
Speaker
Because there's you know it's not like you can go to the go to a fucking library and pick up like a book about you know the history of American work where you just kind of like pick up these things and file them away. At least that's how I do it as well.
00:21:56
Speaker
you know Being able to to find actually put that into a words that like resonate with people seems very challenging. And also, I mean, Sienna's research is so much about bodies within clothing.
00:22:12
Speaker
you know And it's just like to be to actually remember the human aspect of clothing. work where is just like the most incredible subject in order to do that because because the clothing wouldn't exist without the people inside it. Yeah, totally, totally. But I was going to say, i mean, Tony has one of the best, like i I think I said this last time I was on the show probably, but um I'm not, I would never call myself a historian, you know, I do deep research.
Sylvester's Historical Memory Skills
00:22:41
Speaker
this kind of rolodex brain and and yeah and as you said you know he he's accrued all of this knowledge of these years and and files it away and can kind of draw on it in a way that's really i please amazing thank you totally totally man you guys it's just i've always told people
00:23:03
Speaker
ah Yeah. I always tell people like my brain works that very similarly. And like, you know, I read something on a forum, you know, 10 years ago. And like, I still remember the exact, you know, text of of whatever that was about. And it's like, you know, I always tell people that my brain is full of shit that like 95% of the world population do not give a fuck about.
Generational Influence on Cultural Consumption
00:23:27
Speaker
But it comes to the show. Yeah. Yeah. yeah you know knows that knows like just unreasonable stuff yeah and you need to have that yeah exactly someone has to have it i found that much much easier when it when all in for when in everything was analog like i i think now i do get overwhelmed with
00:23:49
Speaker
with information to the point where it's it's kind of gets rid of all that stuff, that bedrock. I'm so glad I grew up the age I did where ah it was such an analog experience. Like, you know, everything was a physical thing.
00:24:02
Speaker
yeah for yeah that That's so much easier for the human brain, I think, to take in. think now it's just too much, you know? Yeah, I kind of got the best of both worlds yeah because I'm 42. So, you know, like early internet and you and that kind of thing. Good One might say the best age. Yeah, 93. Yes, yes. Wait, Sienna, are you also an 83 baby? i sure am.
Firefighters' Jackets: Historical and Cultural Evolution
00:24:28
Speaker
Nice, nice. yeah i'm ah Yeah, I like it. I like i like odd numbers too, so 83 works. I was going to ask about the fireman's jacket.
00:24:41
Speaker
which my notes here I have fear not dread not doused with water question mark because I think that initially they soaked them with water at the at the beginning.
00:24:54
Speaker
Only the old Fianaut jackets, so the old melt-and-wool ones that were from the 1850s, they were one of the reasons why it was so... You would just soak it in water, so it was like a melt-and-wool that just took it out. Because there was... Like a pecanum. Yeah, exactly. Because anything else would have been flammable.
00:25:18
Speaker
would have been flammable but he likeally right right it's like that so that's the history so it would just be so heavy yeah totally be awful but but that's can't imagine that's work yeah that's right yeah that's work yeah i can't imagine wearing a melton wool jacket into a fire that's that seems would probably i would probably go with not not going into the
Influence of French Workwear
00:25:49
Speaker
fire. Do you know like the history of Japanese firefighters jackets? Have you ever seen those? and These incredibly incredibly elaborate, wonderful coats. And I could never understand what their firefighting properties was until I learned what they actually did. Because everything was wooden and paper buildings, a Japanese firefighter in the 19th century was you just went and smashed everything down to stop the fire spreading.
00:26:14
Speaker
So there was no fire fighting. It said that there was no water involved or putting fires out. It was literally just smashing the area down. So effectively, you were just like a warrior with a big stick smashing buildings up.
00:26:29
Speaker
And I was like, OK, now it makes sense. So yeah, that does totally make sense. So that's a thing I should have put in the fire-ify chapter and didn't go Well, it sounds like you've got plenty of, yeah, yeah, I was going to say, you've got plenty of ammo for volume two.
00:26:48
Speaker
Exactly. ah So can we talk a little bit about Prince Workway? Sure. You said it was one of the bigger chapters in that the book. You know, it's it's one of those things that I think I've been into it for a very long
French Workwear's Chapter-Worthy Significance
00:27:02
Speaker
time. And like, you know, you learn how to pick up on you know, on different things. And like, I think French work where I was talking with a friend of mine about this yesterday, maybe, but it influenced, you know, it influenced a ton of other countries, types of work where Belgium, Germany, Thailand.
00:27:23
Speaker
um Can you, can you just give us kind of a a brief little rundown about, ah about why that's such an important topic for you? um I think the reason it was such an important topic was because I started with maybe don't know, never thought to wonder why they're wearing the things they're wearing. So it wasn't necessarily written for people with expert knowledge. It was meant to be like that you could come to this book with no prior knowledge. So the French workwear jacket was so important to do because it's so ubiquitous. a thing that people wear to work because it sits somewhere between a casual jacket and a smart jacket. And so you see these navy blue cotton jackets being worn people. And so I was like, well, this is a story to tell because people even say French workwear jacket. It's like one of those things which is said without necessarily thinking of the history behind it. So that's why I thought, well, this is going to be one of the big chapters. This is a story to tell.
00:28:29
Speaker
So, um but other than that, I mean, you know, it's it's pretty much, it's a history of like ah indigo and i dying and it's, the and and it's ah and and and like you say, it's like it basically, across Europe, it became a de facto uniform of like the factory worker from the kind of farmer through to the factory worker.
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah. And that was the quote, right? Was, ah whatever French academic said that it was it was the word. ah Yeah. Well, that was, you see, this is why you have an academic researcher in the household, because that was entirely from the Siena Madsen School of Quotes and phone and research. That's great. and thats still I don't think and a lot of people realize that like different types of those jackets also didn't were basically a notation for what job they were made for.
Affordability and Domestic Production of French Workwear
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah, totally. So like I like the those French railway jackets that you get the in in brown with the kind of with the sort of yoke on them. Do you know the ones I'm talking about? Right. Right. And then. the Yes. you So they're like SCNF. I think it's called the the French National Railway Workers jackets. like I love those ones. And then I really like the kind of black, the heavier ones, the moleskin sort of one. i Oh, the moleskins. the It's fucking perfect. I mean, what a what a jacket. Yeah.
00:29:57
Speaker
Right. We'll have to put them on that. We'll have to put them on the carousel. Yeah. so we We were also talking one more thing about Friends Workwear. Like, it's also it's it's one of the only things that I can personally think of in that realm that is still available made in France affordably. You mean new ones? You've got Vitra. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Like you've got you've got Vitra and, you know, in the higher end brands, which I think are great.
00:30:25
Speaker
And, you know, it's it's obviously it's made for a more like fashion crowd. But like you can still get one of the originals from an old ass factory for a good price. Yeah, i think Mont Saint Michel still make them and La Labourer.
00:30:43
Speaker
um and yeah But of course, Vetra is, a I believe, a new company which is using all ones. And then there's also, what's that one, Limeneur and um what's a french ah you and and caur the French? the French shirt company. they you know There's still loads of those companies are around. france hass a really France is really good about protecting their kind of cultural items a lot more, like from food through to clothing.
Authenticity in Workwear Brands
00:31:11
Speaker
it's su food you know but yeah They are so much more about recognising what it is that they've done and really holding on to them, which comes with its own
00:31:19
Speaker
you know, caveats, of course, about, you know, conservatism and everything else. But, but it is, but you do get, you do get much more like real heritage there in, in, in what they're in their cultural output, as opposed to like faux heritage that you get in a lot of other countries where people can back build it.
00:31:37
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, it like Carhartt and Ben Davis both come to mind for me because they still make, you know, they still make things that they made for 50 to a hundred years or whatever. But like,
00:31:48
Speaker
the the quality, you can you can feel it in the fabrics that they're using. Like, it's not, it is not what it once was. And, you know, Ben Davis is still pretty affordable, Carhartt's still pretty affordable, but like, they're not, you know, they they were started by, you know, people,
00:32:06
Speaker
and union made stuff in America and they are no longer that. I mean, that's one of the things that always bugs me is when people use union made or references to unions on clothing because they're looking at old clothes and so they're like trying to rip off old labels or trying to like emulate that. Right. And like that's something real.
00:32:26
Speaker
And that means something. And so when you when you see that that, that's one of the things that really bothers me. I won't name any names, but those brands who try to ape the language of, it's just like, well, that actually it. How your labor practices? Yeah, how are your labor practices? How are your employees? Right, right. But I mean, on positive note, other than the companies you said, There are brands like Pointer Brand. What's it? Is it John King? Is that what overall? Yeah. I mean, they are.
00:32:54
Speaker
LC King. That's still the same family. That's still the same factory. That's the same. but Yeah. they're They're made about an hour and a half for me. so And there are other other examples of those kind of second tier like workwear brands and and boot companies, which are still entirely made locally. Right. And same factories and the same right union labor.
00:33:13
Speaker
And it's like, so it's still totally there and available.
Fashion Lexicon: The Word 'Clobber'
00:33:18
Speaker
So I can't find it in the book yet. Clobber. We were talking about clobber before we were talking about clobber before we started recording. What does this mean? How is it used? What a great word. Uh, it's really funny because one of those, I think, especially when you're a commercial writer remains where you, you have the, you need five or 10 of these, of these words that you go between to to stop repetition. So like fabric cloth material, for example, is just like changing between them all the time. So clobber is one of those ones for like, because it stands in for both wardrobe, like my personal clobber, but then also in clothing in general. and And I also know it's very English and very colloquial. It's also very Southern English. So it it is quite specific. But I also think if you read it in a sentence, you you sort of get, you you get it. Like you could, you probably, you might have heard it referenced in films or, you know, something like that. It's just like, I'm sure i'm sure it comes across. But um we actually did some very recent research, i.e. in the last half hour,
00:34:20
Speaker
yeah to actually discover because it's a word I've used which didn't really know the original so what
Music and Subculture's Role in Workwear Fashion
00:34:25
Speaker
did we find out? Apparently, apparently this is you know a this news is evolving quickly but apparently 1851 and it's related to to clob up yeah so to men clothing men's something but oh you know don't get in the comments and move around What comments? No one ever comments. They will now. yeah This is going to be the watershed moment.
00:34:55
Speaker
So so yeah my brain immediately went to clobbering time and I was like, that that's not it. In fairness, that's playing on ah you know on a loop in my brain at most most times. So, yeah.
00:35:08
Speaker
Yes. Yes. But yeah, it's clobbering time. Indeed. That's the title for you for the show. Yes. Yes. I am that shit down.
00:35:21
Speaker
ahead So, you know, you've you've both been on the show before, you know, i think Connor myself as well as you can via Instagram and whatnot. But, you know, we're all about connecting clothing and style and subculture, which You know, you you mentioned in the book um about kind of the the West Coast versus East Coast rappers in the 90s. You know, West Coast was a lot of like denim tour coats and jackets and and, you know, carpenter like worker pants and things of that nature.
Mainstreaming of Underground Fashion Trends
00:35:55
Speaker
And then the East Coast was a lot of...
00:35:57
Speaker
car and know And also Barn Coats as well. So a lot a little bit of that kind of L.L. Bean. Right. And Barn Coats. Obviously the L.L. Bean influence um and the J.Crew 90s influence of it. um But ah can you talk a little bit um just about connecting those dots when when you were going through the process of writing? I mean, that's something that's that that would have been something which is like I've always wanted to say and was probably there. Like I like my first introduction to Carhartt was those kind of like box
00:36:28
Speaker
really really boxed fresh almost like shiny um uh jaw coats you know which were yeah because they are that they have that like yeah and then of course it was like nwa my first album when they were wearing it and then and then and then maybe later on seeing like uh films like american me and blood in and blood out and like seeing the actual people going to prison and being issued these You know, and then it's just like, OK, so then you're making the connection of just like, well, that was because it was and kind of utility wear for prisoners, you know, after it had been railway clothing. So that's that's so that's how you get that kind of right. It's hardcore though. I mean, right. It's like sagging pants. yeah That whole thing is like prison af talk. I just, just amazing. Yeah. yeah So, so, so it's ah it's like fun to tell those stories because that's the kind of, that's what I mean about the personal thing is just like, well, that's how I found out about it.
00:37:27
Speaker
Someone else might have found out about it in a completely different way and form. But, but those are the resonances for me because those are the first time I saw, I saw those things.
00:37:38
Speaker
Well, it it is kind of funny to me. like um you know We wanted to talk about the donkey jacket and Doc Martens and skinhead culture. you know That was something that I was drawn to early on, like traditional skins, not boneheads.
00:37:52
Speaker
um But lot of times... There's no person Earth that is making this distinction. No, no. There's plenty of people that are making that distinction. Anyway, but... Go ahead.
00:38:07
Speaker
Oh. ah But yeah, so you know something that always has stood out for me is is how like ah clothing and style evolved from you know kind of the the outer parts of society and subcultures into the mainstream.
00:38:23
Speaker
And Harhart, for example, has been popping on the secondhand market since I started working in it in like 08. And it's never really waned. you know The prices have gotten way higher.
00:38:35
Speaker
too expensive now, but like, you know, that's, that's something that I feel like you resonate with and and telling that story of, of, you know, underground subculture to mainstream.
Cyclical Nature of Fashion Trends
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we're at a point where it's like, uh, those, those first, uh, Pharrell Williams first, like Louis Vuitton collection was like almost and entirely look so much of it looked like there was, there was a um,
00:39:04
Speaker
e classic elements of like that work where they're like duck brown canvas and stuff. But and then obviously the people that he's putting it on in the show is people like Pusha T. There would have been people who were wearing Carhartt versions to express their identity at the time. So now because a friendship with Pharrell, they're now wearing the $2,000 version.
00:39:24
Speaker
You know what mean? in the In the show. So it's just like you're seeing that ascendancy in real real time, you know? Yeah. And Pusha T and Pharrell are like cultural engines. Yeah. one hundreds so Yeah. It's, it's funny, like, especially in the past, I don't know, 10 years or so, how you know, the, the street stuff got to the runway.
00:39:51
Speaker
As it has, as it always does kind of Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it definitely always does. But yeah i know I feel like this what this was a speed Exactly. That's the thing now. It's just like everything's such an accelerated run that things things are just yeah so quick now. you know Which is a shame because I don't think things have time to kind of incubate and breathe and have their own sort of life life totally outside of. outside of that definitely not
00:40:17
Speaker
more quickly now too, so it doesn't have a common breathing time. I keep wondering fashion is lapping itself in a way, because selling vintage... Yeah, I don't like Y2K shit. That's not my thing. didn't think it looked good when was a kid. Well, it's very triggering for people of our vintage, so...
00:40:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But, like, Ed Hardy and that kind of shit is coming back. You know, the but the bedazzled jeans and stuff. Like, like Gen Z are eating that shit up. And then yeah i I see some, like, pick-ass dude in my town wearing a pair that he's probably had since 2005. And they're just like, yeah, you're... you're like this This trend is is real close to just like, I don't know, like eating itself. You say that, but then I don't know, when I when i was in high school, it was like, I thought, I mean, maybe not like, late 70s but like early 70s was very cool and i mean it's not far off oh yeah same sobering thought like 2005 was 21 years ago right right right yeah i i loved 70s stuff in high school and that was the stuff that my parents wore growing up and they were like why do you like this we are the why do you like this people to gen z so
00:41:39
Speaker
I know. i And I try not to harsh their buzz.
Social Media's Impact on Fashion Trends
00:41:42
Speaker
Wear pedazles, children. Yeah, yeah. Or like the the mean girls look. I just want to be like, guys, like kitten heels are not cool. and That's true. I'll never back a kitten heel. No, never. ever ah but But this is it. So there's an objective. that I think there is an objective.
00:42:04
Speaker
like perspective on what you're saying, but there's also a real subjective one. and I think the subjective one is we can all say that like Well, you know, we all did that about the thing that was 20 years ago or 30 years ago. It's just like, you know, you can, of course, you know, as people of the vintage age, we are, we're not supposed to really like what a 20 year old is wearing, especially if that 20 year old is like, totally totally but at the same time, I think, I think the real objective thing is this, like how everything is so sped up.
00:42:30
Speaker
So it's just like, so, so that, so, so, so I think that is real, but then in terms of like, that is a real difference to, to when we were. you know, to when we were growing up. Right. I mean, there's a ubiquity to clothing now too, obviously, and this is something that you talk about quite a lot, but it's the kind of like, you know, crate digging of anything, right? Anything cultural. So it's like,
00:42:55
Speaker
discovery and finding things and and so much of that is flattened now by social media where it's like everything's just available you can find um you can find out what somebody's wearing kind of you know in a town of 1200 people across the world quite easily um and chances are it's going to be the same thing that you're wearing or it's pretty similar um right and i think that's maybe something that's definitely changed now is there's not the kind of not even like the kind of like temporal breathing room, like where you have more time for trends to kind of like disperse and change and morph. But um you don't have the kind of geographical or cultural spread
Identity and Fashion in the Digital Age
00:43:33
Speaker
now. It's like things are are just becoming kind of
00:43:38
Speaker
what we call it, Instagram face, but like Instagram clothes. Yeah, I really miss regional difference. Really, really miss. one thing I miss is the idea, even in like yeah even in England, it was ah there was so much regional difference between you know what people wore from various cities because you'd have like microt trendnds because There was so much less travel and so much less, there was so much more of a micro view rather than a macro view. So you really would get these like, right? Intense, smaller things. And I do really, really miss that. But but then the other side of that is, and I've talked about this, I have talked about this a lot. I did talk about this in another interview, but it's just like, so much of your identity was what you owned when you when you were growing up. It was just like, well, this is the collection of records I own. This is this is a collection of clothing I own. So therefore my identity is what I own. So it's just like, It's almost nice to be free from that and be like, okay, well, what is, what is my actual personality that if we all, we all have access to the same stuff, you can't just rely on owning something as being some kind of personality now because, because every, because it's, because, because lot of people that rely on, you I mean, it's like, you almost, you almost can, but
Vintage Fashion Market Dynamics
00:44:46
Speaker
you almost can't. It's like, are you, uh, doing a good enough impersonation of who you are trying to be? Right.
00:44:54
Speaker
so so So to me, it's more like, well, you do have to develop a perspective, but you do have to develop something beyond just the things that you won't. you know You disagree.
00:45:06
Speaker
I mean, ah yeah. i i Yeah. Maybe. What's your on it?
00:45:16
Speaker
what's your take on it identifying as the things you own. I mean, geez, I think there's a lot of people that identify that way. I mean, again, I like, know, I hate to kind of like go back to like social media culture, but so much of it is like projecting what you own. I mean, I used to work, but you know, I worked. What I'm saying is that used to be a cool thing. That used to be the coolest thing was just like, I have these things. Whereas now it's just like, that's not cool anymore. That's I'm saying. Because everyone can have them. It's not enough. Everyone can have them.
00:45:47
Speaker
Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, I mean, i so I remember working with guys who were into vintage and they would like buy things on if they would buy like a sweatshirt on eBay or whatever.
00:46:01
Speaker
Really, really good vintage and they would know their friends were looking at it as well. and They would buy it and not tell them that they bought it so that they knew they had it and their friends didn't have it, but they didn't tell their friends that they had it. score And they didn't wear it. So they didn't find out that they had So that their friends can have it. I've done that at the thrift store before.
Tactical Crocs and Modern Utility Fashion
00:46:20
Speaker
It's like, this isn't going to fit me, but I don't want somebody else to have it. So it's kind of the flip side of it. It's like, you know, less like ostentatious on social media, more kind of like secretly hoarding. So, you know, that. if if you can't wear it i was
00:46:36
Speaker
Speaking of that, I scrolled your Instagram, Dr. Madsen, and my God, the thing that truly stood out to me the most was the tactical crock.
00:46:47
Speaker
Oh, yes. Multiple times, the tactical crock. And many people sent me that. yeah They were like, you have to get this. I mean, I'll buy this for you for Christmas. Like, this is perfect for you.
00:46:59
Speaker
ni call the clock What are your thoughts about the tech? I love it. So Nicole McLaughlin, the designer and artist who made the world design them with with Crocs, she does, I mean, she does loads of brand collaborations. um Her whole practice is about kind of taking the idea of utility to the ridiculous, you know, she's made like kind of fisherman's vest that holds like condiment packets and stuff like that. um So the tactical croc to me was just like,
00:47:29
Speaker
perfect encapsulation of that because the croc is kind of supposed to be this utility shoe anyways that it's really I mean depending if you're working in a kitchen perhaps but like otherwise it's just a kind of foam rubber shoe full of holes like um that's not yes but especially aesthetic you don't want drop a knife on a croc yeah good so I put together they're good for gardening I don't know They're good for attention.
Exhibition on Function and Utility in Fashion
00:47:56
Speaker
They're completely waterproof. You can shrink them in the dryer. I'm wearing my rubber Birkenstock clogs now. Please believe I'm not standing in judgment of anybody's clog.
00:48:07
Speaker
um yeah I town now. I'm wearing you know only synthetic mules. That's amazing. But it really was all about that, the exhibition that you did. Yeah, yeah. So the exhibition that I did that I put the the Nicole McLaughlin crocs in was all about the kind of idea of of function and functionality and clothing and and this kind of what is functionality when we live in this time that's like so rapidly headed towards the kind of tipping point.
00:48:38
Speaker
um And what's utility clothing in the face of kind of like a digital world where we're not really, most of us aren't doing, we're all working on computers. So what is, you know, Yeah, it's the opposite of the book. you know Half the time you could be pantless and nobody would know that you're pantless because you're at work and no one could see you, but you're below your waist. Yeah. And you did lay that out, right? I mean, you did have say in the type and the like layout of the text, because I thought the writing was great and it just look it's cool like on the Instagram, it's like on the feed. Thank you. yeah yeah thank you that was That was really good. Well, i mean, which you see done sometimes and sometimes you're like why did they waste their time doing that like that looks stupid but this is like it's part of the function of the exhibit yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah definitely i mean but also the way siana's choices in how it was powered the whole thing was it was probably the first exhibition you've done that was actually powered it was the first thing that was powered not because again you know playing with ideas of like functionality and and so i had a bunch of solar powered
00:49:45
Speaker
Elements to the exhibition in the window. So in the studio in our studio, I've got an exhibition space and the place that we live, like the weather changes hour on hour. So it can be like brilliantly sunny one hour and then it just goes like dark and windy. And so i had these kind of water elements and and spinning turntables with things on them and they would just all a sudden stop and and the kind of functionality of the exhibition would be lost and then flip back on again. So it was really about playing with these ideas of like what's useful and what's functional in clothing in every way. So in the text, in the presentation, in the object objects that I chose.
Crocs in Workwear
00:50:27
Speaker
Yeah, that was cool.
00:50:28
Speaker
Very cool. I mean, if we if we're being real at this point, Crocs are kind of work with. Oh, 100%. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the ones you're wearing, those super books. You've heard it here first. But those super books are your ones that were entirely created for nurses, right? Yeah.
00:50:46
Speaker
like Yeah, totally. Like Dansko's? Yeah, Dansko. I'm looking for a pair of Dansko basic-ass cogs in my size for years at this point. And I refuse to pay retail. I've heard some white ones that were too big.
00:50:57
Speaker
I really love them. Yeah, I just want some some brown or or matte black ones. Like, is that really that hard to to find in the size 42? Matt Black, original. and it'sy unbook I am also just, yeah, I'm cheap as shit. So that's probably my fault.
00:51:16
Speaker
mother i want to call my name I want to clear my name on the bonehead thing. Because what all that I'm saying is we don't call them boneheads anymore. We call them young Republicans. Yeah, this is probably this is true. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What happened to the proud boys? their i saw They all became fucking ice agents. Yeah. Yeah. $50,000 signing bonus. They grew up. Yeah. and i I will say Fred Perry kicking them in the dick years ago, you know, when they first came on the scene was one of the funniest things clothing related. I've ever seen. Excellent.
00:51:49
Speaker
Like, this is not what we stand for. Like, we're all about the
Future Endeavors: Madsen Sylvester Studios
00:51:53
Speaker
real life. Totally. Totally. ah So um I guess to to kind of wrap up, is there anything in the pipeline you know that's that's related to the book? what's you know What are are the the studios doing in the future? I mean, more stuff in the studio for the moment. the kind of um I think there'll be there'll be more writing at some point. there'll be I'm sure there'll be some other book with some ideas to make, but really we're both pretty focused on the studio and studio editions at the moment, aren't we really? Yeah, yeah. So we'll be, um we've got, I mean, we've got our consultancy operating at the studio. Tony's got the brand. I'm continuing to do, I have lots of external curators who come in and do exhibitions. I've done eight exhibitions in the last year. So it's kind of oh that's fantastic managing, you know, doing that with kind of the
00:52:48
Speaker
our day jobs as well are well as well but yeah we're we're a bit more focused on kind of the things that we can do together and I think bring together those aspects of what I said the kind of different things that we bring into working on projects together. Yeah there's there's an there's an exhibition that we'll be working on together we already did one together which was the the kind of archival one didn't we which was really kind of almost like more my object, but then your kind of writing and your research kind of thing. And then, but this one will be ah a kind of more of a split, which will be pretty soon actually. Hopefully we'll start working on that. Hopefully. And then, and then, and then also like with AWMS, my brand, there's going to be a branch of that off, which will be Mads and Sylvester Studio Editions. so there'll be objects that kind of fit in more with the idea of like things we're both interested in or things that would be more, have more of an academic, I don't know, how would you describe it? mean, the first one we did, the first is so I did a show, um it was one of the first shows we did actually in the studio with an artist named Samuel Isles and it's an oil painting that he did um called, called Reckham for a Bowl of Soup. kind of this character wearing sports socks on his hands. It was about masturbation. But so I think- It was during lockdown, it was frustrations of him not being able to do anything. socks on his hands because obviously AWS does such amazing socks.
The Creative Process: Time and Space
00:54:30
Speaker
i was like, what if they did a kind of edition of the sock in real life? Oh, that's great. and it was Dude, that's the first socks I'm buying. i' I'm not in the bank. They're out already. It was one of the first exhibitions I did and the socks, I suspended the socks in the window and then they've sold them as additions.
00:54:49
Speaker
They sold out right away. So that was great. And it was really nice because it felt kind of like organic to what I was doing and also what Tony was doing. So we're we're finding more opportunities where it's like, it makes sense in terms of things that I'm thinking about or curators or artists that I'm working with and and the kind of work that he does as well. Yeah. Like, i mean, a lot of the AWS product itself kind of comes from the starting point, as as you might know, as we've probably talked about before. of like seeing an artist or seeing a cultural figure wearing something and then so wanting to tell their story through the clothing they wear like David Hockney's sweatshirt or something like that or Alva Alto, the Finnish designer. I did a quarter zip sweatshirt that I found a picture of him wearing on his boat and i was like,
00:55:35
Speaker
I want to tell a story of Alvarado and I want to tell you know why he was wearing this and what it meant to him. So there's ah so there's a few like there's a few there's a few things like that where it's more like both of our shared interests. So there'll be something that we've seen that someone made or someone wore. And so it's like, well, how do we tell that story? So that will be the next one, I think, which will be pretty soon.
00:55:54
Speaker
yeah he yeah Yeah. You guys really are a power couple. It's it's great. thanks Of course, of course. you only translate yeah that does power couple million yeah yeah that do i mean did You just have to know that it's coming.
Episode Conclusion and Thank You
00:56:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. We we are also struggling with this, but that's that's for an entirely different time. But honestly, the biggest luxuries in life, as we said, are like time and space. There's like they're the only real things that you or that are important, you know?
00:56:28
Speaker
Right. And and so they want I think I think this space has afforded us a lot half of about at least yeah time is still yeah just and and a ah real something that we need more of but but having having a space a studio that we work in together and that we can but we both use is is like it's like a huge thing and and i consider a real luxury you know yeah that's great congratulations thank you yeah of course of course um anyway y'all if this has been fantastic uh i cannot wait to to thumb through the book and and check it out guys i appreciate it tell
00:57:04
Speaker
Yeah. Tell our listeners. Oh, also I'll, I'll say on Connor's recommendation, this is a fantastic book. You, you heard it here at like 15, but anyway, um, tell, tell everyone where they can, uh, uh, you guys and what you're doing. Uh, so you can find Mads and Sylvester's studio at madsandsylvesterstudio.com. Um, and actually both of our kind of,
00:57:31
Speaker
stuff exists on there as well too. Awesome. ah And then I'm Sienna Madsen on Instagram. I'm ToneLoki on Instagram. And then it's the actual, if you want to go straight to the web store, it's aws.
00:57:45
Speaker
dot Big Cartel? Big Cartel.com. Thank you so much. That's why you need two of us. I hope so. Yeah. Or else someone else is going to do really well at that No, that's all right. That's all right. hell yeah well thank you firing it's not like i don't know it made me think perhaps i could write a book in my life not like what she can't easy but you can't know it just is possible do it you can totally do it of course you can so and especially unless i'm more sure about yes yeah do it
00:58:22
Speaker
well Everyone, thank you for listening. We are at Apocalypse Studs on Instagram, apocalypse studs at gmail.com. We're available on whatever platform you use. Please leave us a review or give us a rating. Or leave comments. I am. Yeah, lots of comments. Leave comments. Like anything, anything that can get us above this, this social media hump that we're all constantly trying to overcome. um Yeah.
00:58:52
Speaker
Thank you. um But yeah, I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues. And I am Connor Fowler at Connor Fowler. And we will see you next Wednesday.