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Good Uncs and Bad Uncs, OGs and Old Heads with Winston Jones
113 Plays4 days ago
Matt is out this week, toiling in the sulfur mines of Southeast Georgia. I am joined by our new producer, Jamaal Tuhrik. We talk with Winston Jones, writer, reader, dresser, student, teacher, New Yorker about his journey (a word I wish we had more synonyms for) from “student to teacher and back again.” We answer The Quarter-Zip-Question, Perks of Packing Light, New York, Methodologies of Childhood Clothing Acquisition, Parental Influence, Teaching, Learning, Classroom Style, A Deep Dive Into His Socials, Trials and Tribulations of Making Content, And More!
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Transcript
00:00:00
Conor Fowler
We're on. Yes.
Introduction and Hosts' Backgrounds
00:00:02
Conor Fowler
Hello and welcome to a special episode of Apocalypse Duds. Matt is out traveling, ah seeing Matt's like one of Matt's favorite bands, which for Matt is like a big ah and for anyone would be a big thing. But Matt is like extremely passionate. So Matt is like really having the time.
00:00:24
Winston Jones
deserves this.
00:00:25
Conor Fowler
Yeah, exactly.
00:00:26
Winston Jones
goes
00:00:27
Conor Fowler
um So I'm Connor Flower. Jamal Taylor.
00:00:32
Winston Jones
I'm Mr. Jones, Winston Jones. Happy be here, fellas. Appreciate it.
00:00:35
Conor Fowler
We appreciate it tremendously. On this amazing snowy day. so to get to get into it, um where are you from and where do you live now?
00:00:40
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:00:48
Winston Jones
Yeah, so I'm a born and raised New Yorker. Grew up in Long Island.
00:00:51
Conor Fowler
Okay.
00:00:52
Winston Jones
um Parents are from New York. Grandparents from New York. And I still live in New York now. I actually live in Brooklyn. and my fiance live together. So... Kind of been New York through and through my entire life, which is kind of nice.
00:01:05
Conor Fowler
Yeah, that's awesome. That's like, uh, I feel like that's,
00:01:10
Winston Jones
It's a badge I wear, you know, i get a like.
00:01:11
Conor Fowler
yeah, exactly. That's like, that's like a thing. One, I think like having known many New Yorkers, I think that it does mean you are resourceful at the very least resourceful in a way that most people, you just like normal people are not taking the train by themselves when
New York Life and Engagement
00:01:28
Conor Fowler
they're 10. Sure.
00:01:29
Winston Jones
Yeah, honestly, probably even younger than that. Like I see kids, you know, fourth grade, if not younger, maybe be on the train, they know they stop, they get their little iPad ready to go.
00:01:31
Conor Fowler
sure
00:01:39
Winston Jones
And I'm like, oh, all right, mister, have a good day.
00:01:42
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:01:42
Winston Jones
It's pretty funny, resourceful and hypervigilant is like the other thing most born and bred New Yorkers have, like just sixth sense, like Spider-Man, like we just know when something's off, when it's right, when it's a scam, yeah, all that.
00:01:57
Conor Fowler
A bullshit detector.
00:01:59
Winston Jones
Pretty much high high radar for that, for sure.
00:02:03
Conor Fowler
Congrats on the engagement. Yeah.
00:02:04
Winston Jones
Thank you. Thank you.
00:02:06
Conor Fowler
Definitely wanted to put that on. I'm a married man for two years myself. So I think I told you before, it's the best decision I've made. She took me under her, she put me under her deodorant. okay
00:02:18
Winston Jones
saying a lot.
00:02:20
Conor Fowler
Yeah. So I guess the first question is kids, in my experience, for style, fashion kind of fall into two
Fashion Evolution and Influences
00:02:30
Conor Fowler
categories. You kind of like depending on how you grew up, your parents, whatever you wanted style, fashion wise, you get it. And then some parents are like, no matter how much money you do or don't make, you're going to wear what I buy you. What? What?
00:02:41
Conor Fowler
Where did you fall in that? And i think it doesn't always have to do with you have money because some peer parents don't have a lot of money and say you wear you want and some have and vice versa.
00:02:49
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:02:49
Conor Fowler
So where'd you fall on that?
00:02:50
Winston Jones
Yeah. So for my parents, both of them are pretty stylish in their own sense. Like very classic dressers in terms of like who they admire, what styles they go for.
00:03:03
Winston Jones
ah So for myself, it was it was a combination of first functional wear. played a lot of sports as a kid and I was always much taller and bigger than most kids in my age group.
00:03:17
Winston Jones
So the first thing was just finding clothes that fit. it was like, all right, no more kids section, no more Oshkosh, B'gosh, you got to go to like you know Gap and Old Navy.
00:03:22
Conor Fowler
Yes.
00:03:26
Winston Jones
so First, it was about, okay, what's functional? What can you actually fit? The second thing after that was like, okay, he plays sports and playing football, playing basketball, you know, super heavy into sneakers. So I didn't care about clothing. It was more so I want the coolest sneakers.
00:03:42
Winston Jones
I'm okay wearing the chino pants my mom bought me and, you know, whatever button up shirt she had planned. um I trusted my parents' taste. so i don't really have a problem trying to like do anything different from them.
00:03:57
Winston Jones
I was like, oh, you guys said this is cool. I trust you guys. This is cool. I would say once I got to like middle school, high school is when I started to get on the internet more, you know, part of that Tumblr era and the blog posting. And that's when started to explore more of like, I have more say in what I wanted to wear. But the funny thing is when you're in your parents' household, you're saying what you want to wear winds up becoming what they already probably implanted in your mind from young. So in my head, yeah, I'm doing it myself, but you know, growing up, you're like, oh, looking back on it, I was doing what you guys had already know set out for me pretty much, not realizing it.
00:04:34
Winston Jones
So i'm like right in the middle, I would say.
00:04:37
Conor Fowler
Okay. Yeah, that's definitely interesting. I don't think I had any thoughts to that stuff till was, I had little stuff but until I was older. I'm not trying to be stylish either. they I mean, I'm sure they were in their own right.
00:04:47
Conor Fowler
My dad passed, but looking back, I can see he was, but now I can.
00:04:50
Winston Jones
yeah
00:04:51
Conor Fowler
I didn't think that he was stylish when I was like that age.
00:04:52
Winston Jones
Yeah, no, for sure.
00:04:55
Conor Fowler
Well, it goes to the, I read your sub stack.
00:04:58
Winston Jones
Thank you.
00:04:58
Conor Fowler
I trawled your sub stack and ah we have a, I have a few notes. Um, The post about the unks I thought was interesting. I mean, because I think that that is kind of related to this discussion, right?
00:05:10
Conor Fowler
Like, and you're your your case is that we need the unk, right?
00:05:11
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:05:15
Winston Jones
Yes.
00:05:15
Conor Fowler
Like that is a venerated position in society.
00:05:18
Winston Jones
Mm-hmm.
00:05:18
Conor Fowler
And so like, it's not actually something to poo poo, it's something to respect.
00:05:23
Winston Jones
For sure.
00:05:23
Conor Fowler
And so
Cultural Figures and Perceptions
00:05:24
Conor Fowler
I thought that was a great, great point to be making.
00:05:24
Winston Jones
as
00:05:26
Conor Fowler
And there's much to be said of like sort of becoming that figure, right? Like remembering, making fun of that person as a child and then becoming that person, especially as you are or were a teacher.
00:05:35
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:05:38
Conor Fowler
um
00:05:39
Winston Jones
Yes.
00:05:39
Conor Fowler
It very much is that way.
00:05:42
Winston Jones
You know, it's funny because my fiance always makes jokes about how similar me and my dad are now, especially because there's some things my dad would wear or do or say, and I was like, I will never get close to doing that at all.
00:05:57
Winston Jones
And here I am sitting right now, shawl collar cardigan on, you know, talking about, yeah, I beat the snow out there, it looks good, you know, like all of them.
00:06:01
Conor Fowler
Look at you.
00:06:06
Winston Jones
I got
00:06:09
Conor Fowler
Yeah, like...
00:06:09
Winston Jones
to go early, ah, good, okay, nice.
00:06:10
Conor Fowler
ah
00:06:13
Winston Jones
You know, so it's funny that when I was writing that post, because again, i think any younger generation that sees someone who is formally dressed to or it know speaks a certain way, they automatically put you in the unk category. And I know it's out of love it's like a slight you know joshing around, but it made me think about, to your point, like aging gracefully and and looking forward to getting to that I guess, ah stature of being looked at as the unk, you know, the auntie, because in my family, those people are established, they they know themselves, they clearly have a good financial standing in life, and those people you look to for that wisdom or guidance. So for me, it was flipping the narrative on the comments of, you know, yeah, I am unk. Matter of fact, yeah, you guys are gonna look towards me as this this beacon, this guy in the light that you need in your life, so yeah.
00:07:09
Conor Fowler
Yeah, I definitely, before I get to the next question, I definitely, I hear it. I've always, I'm almost 40. I've always thought it as a term of endearment because typically, especially in most all cultures, your family members are unks because they're not always unks in every culture.
00:07:16
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:07:23
Conor Fowler
I know and for black people, it is unks, it's friends, is cousins, but like, those are the people who do all the parties that you gather at their house and like you follow their rules and they might've, they might've been able to whoop your ass if they had your parents or they were in your family.
00:07:35
Conor Fowler
So like to me, is it now I'm the person ushering in the younger community into the future.
00:07:35
Winston Jones
yeah
00:07:41
Conor Fowler
Like that's a, I hold that proudly. Well, they're like buying booze for right? They're like buying cigarettes for you. They're like, uh, well, so see, I, so I think it is culturally different yeah in that way.
00:07:50
Winston Jones
Well, okay, and maybe not for me, but they definitely had it around. It would be like, yo. Oh,
00:07:59
Conor Fowler
Like, because there weren't really, I mean, there were people who I looked up to definitely, my friend, my late friend, Vinny, actually, who like took me around Baltimore when I was like 15 and 16 and he must've not been very much older than 18, but it was like, there was a big difference between us, you know, like he was, he knew where the houses were.
00:08:13
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:08:16
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:08:22
Conor Fowler
Like we went to all these punk houses. Some of them had skate parks inside and he just like knew about these events, you know?
00:08:26
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:08:29
Conor Fowler
And it's like that kind of, uh,
00:08:32
Winston Jones
Well, there's two different types of unks, I would say, especially in the black community where you have the ones on your dad's side where you're like, oh yeah, that's your uncle so-and-so. He does his own thing.
00:08:44
Winston Jones
He got mad girlfriends and no kids, but he does have a one son you don't know about. You got your mom's side of unks where they're like, oh yeah, he's an investor of this banking company or whatever.
00:08:59
Winston Jones
drives a nice Mercedes. He's on vacation all the time. So it's like, to your point, it's funny, like, there's like a, guess depending on your context and background, that the word unk can carry so many different things.
00:09:13
Conor Fowler
A good unk, a bad unk.
00:09:15
Winston Jones
Yeah, you know, you always see those Christmas movies where it's like the drunk unk who's like, always living at mom's house still, getting into trouble, and you love him, but you're like,
00:09:19
Conor Fowler
Yeah, stumbling. Yeah.
Fashion Trends and Critiques
00:09:25
Winston Jones
come on, man, you're 45, huh?
00:09:25
Conor Fowler
Well, because you use OG too, I think.
00:09:25
Winston Jones
Now, I was talking to my kid, like,
00:09:29
Conor Fowler
And the OG, like, that is like the uber-unk, you know?
00:09:34
Winston Jones
Yes.
00:09:34
Conor Fowler
That's the
00:09:35
Winston Jones
When affecting OGs, that's like someone who you like, you automatically respect. There's there's no questioning about their their stature in the community or in your life. Again, to um there also point, they might be related to you, but you just look at them as like, this is a figurehead.
00:09:53
Winston Jones
You know i mean? Especially like in this this you know Black Southern culture. talked to my friend about this. You know, when kids throw around the word uncle, OG now, it's not the same as when I was growing up. Like you knew that person was not playing games.
00:10:06
Winston Jones
They will definitely you have your mama coming up and book your butt.
00:10:10
Conor Fowler
Right. Or they might have the authority to whoop your ass.
00:10:11
Winston Jones
You're not messing around.
00:10:14
Conor Fowler
They might have authority to whoop your ass themselves.
00:10:15
Winston Jones
Yeah. Don't go you up in the street like, yo, listen, stop doing that.
00:10:19
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:10:19
Winston Jones
I know your mom and your dad.
00:10:20
Conor Fowler
And you'll tell your mom and they'll be like, youre like no, like what you mean? which Who you telling me for? tried to whoop you.
00:10:24
Winston Jones
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:25
Conor Fowler
That's just that.
00:10:26
Winston Jones
Yeah, so it's it's funny that that article really found me right because i just had to get a bunch of flashbacks and memories of it.
00:10:33
Conor Fowler
It takes you back. Right.
00:10:34
Winston Jones
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:10:37
Conor Fowler
Cause you were talking about the old money aesthetic too. And I think we kind of, we kind of are on the same page about that as well. Like it's ah to my eyes, a little grotesque, like to ask, to aspire to that is like questionable.
00:10:57
Conor Fowler
And I think that there's a rejection of like branding that is like, It's not really there in the first place. It's like, what do you mean by that?
00:11:09
Conor Fowler
Well, you know, not you.
00:11:09
Winston Jones
Yeah,
00:11:10
Conor Fowler
Like or not when I hear Oma, I'm like, o okay, tell me, tell me more, you know?
00:11:14
Winston Jones
yeah I realize some people, especially in just the fashion space online, just use a lot of hot words and just throw stuff out there. And I was talking about this the other day, it's like there's so much context you need to establish when you're creating this aesthetic.
00:11:32
Winston Jones
And when it comes to Omani aesthetic and that trend, I always have to look at like what's happening culturally in the world in other facets. that that get
00:11:40
Conor Fowler
right Right. So who are those people?
00:11:43
Winston Jones
It is like, okay, so conservative America, very, you know, classic quote unquote, it's like, oh, you know, Sydney Sweeney, American jeans kind of vibes. And it's like,
00:11:54
Conor Fowler
Or like Steve Bannon, who people are like, yo, have you seen Steve Bannon's barber jacket?
00:11:56
Winston Jones
Yeah. Or
00:12:00
Conor Fowler
Like, that's really cool. He is responsible for millions of deaths.
00:12:04
Winston Jones
even like someone like Steve McQueen, I'm like, y'all realize how messed up of a person he was? Like, there's a father, like, this this is not a cool, like, he's cool on the screen, but outside of that, not really a cool guy, you know?
00:12:10
Conor Fowler
Yeah, he had a hard go of it.
00:12:18
Winston Jones
Or like even like a lot of people like admiring like old British stuff. And i'm like, hmm, very imperialistic.
00:12:24
Conor Fowler
Well, it's exactly right. It's like, where does this fetishizing, the anglophilic
00:12:31
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:12:32
Conor Fowler
thing I mean, I understand where it comes from, right? like Because that's what we, we in America, we're looking over across ah the Atlantic to say, like, this is the height of culture.
00:12:46
Conor Fowler
Like, this these men in Oxford are, like, the best.
00:12:47
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:12:52
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:12:52
Conor Fowler
They are the best at learning. They are the best at doing, cetera. And so we need to basically impersonate them.
00:12:59
Winston Jones
Yeah, for sure.
00:13:01
Conor Fowler
And so here we are now doing a similar thing again, but it's like, i don't know. What have they, i don't know. I like didn't even watch succession.
00:13:09
Winston Jones
And this is like...
00:13:11
Conor Fowler
just like,
00:13:13
Winston Jones
And this is funny, but the key word there is and impersonation, impersonating. I think about someone, that's a country like Japan, for example. And everything now is like, oh, it's made Japan, it's the best. I love the Japanese way. the japan japan paintch Japan, Japan, Japan, Japan.
00:13:28
Winston Jones
And Japan has somehow marketed themselves at this very open community that... takes things from different worlds and makes them better.
00:13:40
Winston Jones
And japan Japan's probably the second biggest imperial nation in the world in terms of what they take over and, you know, it was even funnier.
00:13:46
Conor Fowler
Well, they're modeled after us. They're directly modeled after us.
00:13:50
Winston Jones
was just like, it took what we do. Yeah.
00:13:52
Conor Fowler
Right. We destroyed them completely and then resurrected them in our image.
00:13:55
Winston Jones
Can you be like,
00:13:58
Conor Fowler
And so weird that the weird that the politics there are going far right.
00:14:05
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:14:06
Conor Fowler
Huh.
00:14:06
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:14:06
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:14:07
Winston Jones
And it's like reading, you know, you read more history books and like Amatora. Like when I read that, I was like, oh, this aesthetic was by force. Not like they wanted to just be like an American.
00:14:17
Winston Jones
They were like, oh, we have GIs stationed literally in our house and we're taking their khakis.
00:14:17
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:14:22
Winston Jones
Like, yeah.
00:14:22
Conor Fowler
Like, people don't think about that. Like, you your home is occupied.
00:14:27
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:14:27
Conor Fowler
Well, yeah, we want to be like America. Because they wanted to?
00:14:30
Winston Jones
Yeah, it's like, I kind of had no choice.
00:14:31
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:14:32
Winston Jones
I wanted to blend in enough so I wouldn't get stopped in the street. You know what mean?
00:14:35
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:14:35
Winston Jones
Like, yeah, it's really fascinating how aesthetics can become weaponized. Like, even the whole quarter zip thing, that started very organic.
00:14:45
Conor Fowler
Let's do it. Yeah. that's Well, that's where, so yeah I have to, that's what the notes from, let's get into it.
00:14:49
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:14:49
Conor Fowler
So like extremely quickly, like in your piece about the old money aesthetic, you, uh, you note the sort of, ah hypocrisy of like, well, if you can't afford this, like Zara is an, exhibit is an acceptable option for your old money aesthetic, right?
00:15:07
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:15:07
Conor Fowler
Like you could buy that. You could just buy a top coat from h and M and like, you'll look just fine.
00:15:12
Winston Jones
yeah
00:15:15
Conor Fowler
It doesn't work.
00:15:17
Winston Jones
I think and this is why ah realize, you know, brands are banking on consumers not being what's the word looking for, I guess, very intentional with their purchases and they're banking on people
00:15:35
Winston Jones
you know not wanting to dig deeper into anything for that matter.
00:15:38
Conor Fowler
Of course.
00:15:38
Winston Jones
you know we We love immediacy, we love quickness, we love the ability to be groupthink, you know like be in on it. And to the point where we're gonna try so hard to not be in on it, we wind up being back there anyway.
00:15:53
Winston Jones
And when I think about like the quarter zip trend and i was all four i was very organic I was like, this is cool. Like, hey, like, yeah, courteships cool now. Like, it's funny because, hey, when I was getting into menswear and like the 2012 hashtag menswear kind of thing, it was like a courteship was the immediate dorky finance bro thing.
00:16:12
Winston Jones
You're not putting a courteship on.
00:16:13
Conor Fowler
I haven't seen one that looks good still.
00:16:16
Winston Jones
I personally don't, I don't own it. I don't like them at all. I've seen some people
00:16:20
Conor Fowler
It reminds me of like being in the fourth grade and just like unzipping and zipping and unzipping and zipping.
00:16:25
Winston Jones
There's some brands that make like the cool, like the really long neck for it.
00:16:25
Conor Fowler
Like,
00:16:28
Winston Jones
So like it lays nice.
00:16:30
Conor Fowler
Those are cool.
00:16:30
Winston Jones
However.
00:16:31
Conor Fowler
But to me, that' that's a different thing. That's menswear in a nutshell.
00:16:33
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:16:35
Conor Fowler
it's not It's not about what the thing is or it's about what details can we impart on it to whether it's function, a different style, silhouette. ah when i think When I hear a quarter zip trend, they're talking about the standard base.
00:16:45
Conor Fowler
They aren't talking about a a long, flat collar. They aren't talking about rubby quarter zip. They're talking about the most plainest quarter zip that most of us- From Kohl's.
00:16:51
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:16:52
Conor Fowler
From Kohl's. From Kohl's.
00:16:53
Winston Jones
I'm cold.
00:16:54
Conor Fowler
from coals It's Kohl's.
00:16:58
Winston Jones
Quarter zip, Patagonia vest, tech chino pants. like when i hear Listen, that's like guess and I think that's another thing too is that when you see those guys dressed that way, style is the last thing on their mind.
00:17:02
Conor Fowler
No shade to those things, by the way.
00:17:15
Winston Jones
You what mean? When think about what's going
00:17:15
Conor Fowler
they're consumed by greed.
00:17:17
Winston Jones
You know, so like when think about someone finance, like that's the last thing on their mind. But I realized that those industries too, you want to assimilate, you want to look the same. You don't want to stand out too much because that may discredit how serious you take your job.
00:17:33
Winston Jones
You what mean? Like if you were a fun tie to the world, then like,
00:17:33
Conor Fowler
Yeah, you can't be like a black sheep. Right. Yeah. If you've seen all of the pictures of like a frat, right, of the like salmon and pastel shorts and like everyone is wearing boat shoes.
00:17:47
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:17:48
Conor Fowler
It's the same in the boardroom.
00:17:49
Winston Jones
Yeah, literally. As someone who works in corporate now, granted, it's corporate fashion, but I do see the the idea of assimilation to get ahead and the...
00:18:02
Winston Jones
you know, concern about being too much personality, um deterring your progress in that world, especially if you're not already set up or have the background that can afford you to get that ski ticket that far.
00:18:06
Conor Fowler
Oh yeah.
00:18:13
Conor Fowler
Rich parents.
00:18:16
Winston Jones
You know what mean? of Yeah, so it's, that's why like when I post things, I always love to give history and context. And for me, I like clothing, but I'm not going to a fit check all the time. I need to, I need to get people in on the thinking behind things. And that's why I think I enjoy it more than just trying to be an influencer that's like, oh, look at my fit. I'm wearing this, I'm wearing this.
00:18:38
Winston Jones
And that's it. You know i mean? Like, I can't, I'm not that attractive. I can stand there and get, you know, a hundred thousand views.
00:18:45
Conor Fowler
You,
00:18:48
Conor Fowler
i don't know about that. I mean, so, so this quote, if you wanted to, if you wanted to be able to truly fit in with the plutocrats of the world, you shouldn't be surprised when they can tell your clothing is from a fast fashion store.
00:18:53
Winston Jones
The side eyes.
00:19:03
Winston Jones
Now,
00:19:03
Conor Fowler
And I think that that, I think that that about sums it up. Like,
00:19:07
Winston Jones
pretty much. Now, speaking of fast fashion, i'm I'm sure you guys have your questions about this too. What are our thoughts on the Aaron Levine Zara collab?
00:19:15
Conor Fowler
I'll take because I was just gonna bring it up, but I don't wanna cut you off.
00:19:18
Winston Jones
Go ahead.
00:19:20
Conor Fowler
I think it's pretty cool. On its face, on its face it's pretty cool. On its face it's pretty cool, right? Everything is 100% cotton. or natural or wool. And the the pieces are on trend as well as things that, I hate the word timeless because I hate what it means. But I think there are things you could, they're not too far left. They're not too far right. They're just nice, normal pieces. And then the company that makes it, and then the person you're not an icon, but someone who people look up to in the menswear space, and then you're partnering with this company, it's very dirty.
00:19:52
Conor Fowler
It's very dirty to me.
00:19:53
Winston Jones
I think if it was any other brand besides Zara, people would be, GQ would be reposting it. Every blog site would be like, this is so fire.
00:20:03
Conor Fowler
Well, like imagine if it was Bean or something.
00:20:07
Winston Jones
It could have been Aaron Levine times Beans. It could have been even J.Crew. could have been Aaron Levine, J.Crew. It could have been Madewell for that matter. I think would have had a different response to it. but I think because it's Zara, which is probably the number one fast fashion empire, because basically cost is basically H&M, you know, they're all part of the same conglomerate.
00:20:27
Conor Fowler
know that. A lot of people don't know that.
00:20:29
Winston Jones
It's just funny. It's like, you know, Toyota and Honda or Honda and Acura being the same manufacturer or, you know, Infinity and Toyota. It's like, these guys one's luxury.
00:20:37
Conor Fowler
Diffusion
00:20:38
Winston Jones
Market is luxury. One is not. And I personally need the fusion.
00:20:42
Conor Fowler
lines.
00:20:44
Winston Jones
I like the styling of it a lot. And i think, again, I like the product. Now, the part part is, is that if you were wearing this out, no one would say oh, is that Zara, Aaron Levine? They're like, nice suit, nice quarter zip.
00:21:01
Winston Jones
When you now put the Zara name behind it, it's like, come on, man. Because Aaron Levine does collabs with Drake's, which is super pricey. And then he does Zara. And it's like, okay, like what are you really standing for? like what's What is your your your goals here?
00:21:18
Winston Jones
Are you trying to get this cash grabs?
00:21:19
Conor Fowler
in the whole The whole thing in his words, I'm going to get into it
Consumer Behavior and Brand Loyalty
00:21:24
Conor Fowler
now. I mean, it's very like my dad told me how to run my business and like I have it here written down on a piece of paper, like his words to me. and it's like, clearly, the point is to make maximum money.
00:21:40
Winston Jones
For sure, which I honestly, I respect. Like you're a businessman, you're someone who's, if your brand is this strong, capitalize on it, go for it. What I don't like is people looking at Aaron Levine as some style messiah.
00:21:54
Winston Jones
And he's like, anything he touches, oh it's so good. I'm like, he's a cool guy. I respect his journey and his legacy in this game. But a part is just like, all right how many old white dudes with a beard are going to be like, this is the aesthetic. I have workwear combined with, you know, a suit.
00:22:13
Winston Jones
And wear a beanie all the time. Okay.
00:22:16
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:22:17
Winston Jones
we you know like He just takes his aesthetic and puts it into every brand. AOD, he did the same thing. Madewell, he does this. American Eagle, like, you know, he just... takes over and just puts his aesthetic into every brand and to the point where now it feels like everyone's trying to dress like that and losing some of the personality that comes with it because even himself most of the stuff he wears is either something he got on ebay or wears his own brand
00:22:36
Conor Fowler
This ain't.
00:22:46
Winston Jones
You know, not once I ever heard him going to Zara or talking about Zara in that light. So you see him pop in with a Zara collab. I think it just puts a bad taste in people's mouth who are into really into clothing versus people who are just like into an aesthetic, which is like two different things.
00:23:01
Conor Fowler
I agree. not I'm one, personally, just just just this is just me. I wear a lot J.Crew. The suit I got right now is from J.Crew, and I love them.
00:23:08
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:23:08
Conor Fowler
I don't think they're much different than Zara. I think they may take some more care, but I don't think they're more expensive they works i don't think that they're too much different in how they operate and being like, hey, let's make as much coin as we as we possibly can.
00:23:20
Conor Fowler
And the thing that you just said is like, he's never said anything about Zara.
00:23:21
Winston Jones
For sure.
00:23:24
Conor Fowler
But if you would said, hey, look, hey, look, guys, like I shop at Zara sometimes and that's what I'm doing. But, you know, he doesn't have to do that. But it makes me feel a way when it's just like, here's the collab.
00:23:31
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:23:32
Conor Fowler
And we know the stuff that you you wear a secondhand or like some of the most high end menswear, not high end like lower piano suits or $10,000 watches, but some of the most high end stuff that you can buy.
00:23:43
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:23:43
Conor Fowler
Has nice luggage. You know mean? Like, and that it makes it makes me it makes me feel a way as a menswear guy who I do this for the love of the game. that That is it.
00:23:51
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:23:52
Conor Fowler
I want guys to go out and dress nice and not have your girlfriend, wife, boyfriend, whoever putting on lashes and doing this and then you just wearing a t-shirt and cargo shorts.
00:23:52
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:23:57
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:24:00
Winston Jones
yeah
00:24:00
Conor Fowler
Little bro, you can wear a short, you can wear cargoes and OG 107s and look way better wearing these. Like, that's all I want. So when I see that, I'm like, oh man, like it's a lot of people doing this that is not for the love of the game. And that makes me sad.
00:24:12
Conor Fowler
Well, so yeah, that's what I said.
00:24:12
Winston Jones
yeah
00:24:13
Conor Fowler
If the point is making maximum money, like that's bad actually, because if you're making maximum money, you for sure are fucking people over.
00:24:23
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:24:23
Conor Fowler
And you for sure are cutting corners. And so it's like, how committed can you be if the point is to make as much money as possible? have a question.
00:24:30
Winston Jones
Especially when he has his own brand, when it's focusing on, you know, sand like he has a workwear suit or workwear jacket. It's like $400. Yeah.
00:24:38
Conor Fowler
Yeah, his stuff is his stuff is quality, right? That's the point is like this quality Americana stuff. And then it's like Zara is not even a domestic thing.
00:24:46
Winston Jones
yeah and he has collabs with like nick awakeman and studio nicholson and it's like okay he's done work with them which is like man another brand that makes simple minimal clothing and it's super expensive you know mean but it's high quality it's sourced sustainably and then you a czar collab like again it just kind of tarnishes a little bit of the i guess uh morals that he's trying to preach to other people but yeah
00:25:10
Conor Fowler
I wonder, because I worked at J. Crew Factory in 2010 in the back. And what I had to do, like I maybe worked two shifts.
00:25:17
Winston Jones
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:20
Conor Fowler
Because what I had to do was I would get these stacks of sweaters or blouses or whatever that had rhinestones on them. and So they were all wrapped together.
00:25:32
Conor Fowler
in plastic and then they were individually wrapped in plastic and then each one had a sheet of wax paper on top of it and so I would have to open the stack and then take the sweater out and then take the plastic off and take the wax paper out throw it in the trash and then refold it and put it out they're still doing that I'm sure they're still doing that
00:25:34
Winston Jones
yeah
00:25:54
Winston Jones
Yeah, merchandising. yeah
00:25:58
Winston Jones
For sure, for sure. A lot of brands are doing the same stuff and made the same factories. But again, most consumers, like I said, they're not buying into, everyone's saying buying into the story or to the quality.
00:26:05
Conor Fowler
I
00:26:12
Winston Jones
They're buying into just if it looks good and what's the price. did And then did did someone else say it's hot? If someone else said it's hot, I'm putting it on. Boat shoes, for example. Yeah.
00:26:23
Conor Fowler
haven't got on board with those yet. I mean, I don't hate them. I'm just, for me, i haven't got on board yet.
00:26:27
Winston Jones
Yeah, i try.
00:26:27
Conor Fowler
They're like so Annapolis. They're like, the Annapolitan shoe. It's like the Roman sandal of Annapolis. i So since we' we're kind of touching on a little bit, the price of clothing today, from whatever you, the price of clothing, I'll leave it there. And you just, you run and take it wherever you like.
00:26:49
Winston Jones
You know, i was telling my fiance how spoiled I am by my secondhand shopping skills and my familiarity with like what's worth what.
00:27:02
Winston Jones
and I was discussing, like, I got a vintage L.O. Bean, like, down Parker recently for, like, 20 bucks. Like, Gore-Tex, fully lined. Like, it's a nice jacket.
00:27:13
Winston Jones
And I was looking something similar before I bought that one and, like, a ton of different brands, even, like, Ralph Lauren. And I was just like, yo, I really can't commit to spending more than $100 on something now. Like, it's it's physically, like,
00:27:30
Winston Jones
like makes me like upset. Like I went to suit supply to get some trousers and I love them, it's great pants. And i was like, damn, these $200.
00:27:39
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:27:40
Winston Jones
I know for a fact, if I go on eBay right now and just type in wide leg pleated pants, I'll find them for 20, 30 bucks, $10.
00:27:46
Conor Fowler
You get five.
00:27:48
Winston Jones
the price clothing,
00:27:51
Winston Jones
the price of clothing has definitely gone up, like astronomically gone up. And the worst part about it is that it's gone up without necessarily changing anything about the clothing.
00:28:03
Winston Jones
It's the same.
00:28:03
Conor Fowler
Right. None of the quality has increased at all.
00:28:06
Winston Jones
When the quality has increased, none of the fits or silhouettes, it's the same as that pant.
00:28:07
Conor Fowler
For inflation.
00:28:12
Winston Jones
They may change one thing on the tag or the button and now it's $50 more. You know i mean? And then again like i said I work behind the scenes in fashion, so I know how stuff is going at cost price versus actual selling price.
00:28:26
Conor Fowler
So they still working on a three times markup?
00:28:30
Winston Jones
Yeah, I'll say probably more because it it depends on...
00:28:32
Conor Fowler
Right? Well, that's what I'm saying. So like for a long, long time, it was three times.
00:28:38
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:28:39
Conor Fowler
And now they're definitely working at more than that.
00:28:42
Winston Jones
For sure, I'll like four and half.
00:28:42
Conor Fowler
In other words, the cost of a garment is, I'm sorry.
00:28:46
Winston Jones
I would say probably like more of four and a half.
00:28:49
Conor Fowler
Right. which it's that Which itself is a preposterous increase over three.
00:28:52
Winston Jones
Yeah, and I get it because most of it is not to necessarily pay employees more.
00:28:57
Conor Fowler
right yep
00:28:57
Winston Jones
It's more to put more money for marketing and advertising and things of that nature. oh And so when you when you see those jumps, it one deters longtime customers from shopping there again.
00:29:12
Winston Jones
They figure, you know, might as well to the fat. That's why Zara, Arun Lamin can survive because we have these heritage brands or traditional brands that have 10x their pricing and people are like, for the same thing, might as well, I will literally go to Koss or Uniqlo or GU or a Zara and just get the same exact look.
00:29:33
Winston Jones
for half the price. And if it winds up being, you know, the thread burst or it's something that like, you know, falls apart, I'll buy another one because it's so cheap. i could buy three.
00:29:42
Conor Fowler
Set on sight it on fire and buy another one.
00:29:45
Winston Jones
I could buy three of them and wind up being the same price as the original brand.
00:29:46
Conor Fowler
Oh, yeah.
00:29:49
Winston Jones
And so, Like i said, I'm spoiled because I know how to use, you know, secondhand shopping websites like eBay. I know how to go to the thrift store. had to develop that.
00:29:59
Winston Jones
I will be honest. Like I definitely did not know what I was doing. I think had a few, not a few, a lot of bad purchases in the name of trying to save some money. But it's, um again, realized how much secondhand shopping has trained like my patients, not just in clothing, but like, you know, researching something, seeking it out,
00:30:08
Conor Fowler
so yeah
00:30:21
Winston Jones
seeing something close to it, but then holding back because it's not the exact thing. And then also coming to terms with like, i probably not to able to get it. So let me just be OK with not having it. like I don't need to have it to be a part of it. I can let it go.
00:30:35
Winston Jones
um But yeah, I want to went to the mall recently. haven't been to the mall a really long time. And I realized too, being in New York does spoil me a little bit too as well because there's so many stores, so many random mom and pop stores, big name stores, random vintage shops, people sell clothes on the street.
00:30:54
Winston Jones
And I thought about, you know, this makes sense for someone who's like in, let's say, Arkansas. All you have is your mall and you're like, well, I have these four stores.
00:31:02
Conor Fowler
You gotta go to zoomies.
00:31:04
Winston Jones
i got tillies i got zoomies i got a paxton i got a gap you know i mean so it's like i kind of had no choice but to spend the money on these places um hence why the fast fashion is never gonna go away because they can just fill in all the gaps of the small markets
00:31:07
Conor Fowler
Oh,
00:31:17
Conor Fowler
for sure.
00:31:21
Conor Fowler
All the gaps, no pun intended. see See what you did there.
00:31:24
Winston Jones
yeah shots mickey
00:31:25
Conor Fowler
I think it's like, I think it's like,
00:31:32
Conor Fowler
I've said this before. I mean, they want us all sort of like the matrix in a little studio apartment, spending the maximum amount monthly, right?
00:31:37
Winston Jones
Mm-hmm.
00:31:44
Conor Fowler
Like $1 less than you earn all goes to Netflix and Hulu and HBO go and all that other stuff.
00:31:57
Conor Fowler
And then we're going fast fashion purchases. I mean, you got to buy at least five things from H&M a month. ah something Something that you said I want to jump back to was something, i don't know if but if I've seen it from you or someone else saying companies, and because you have a background, I guess you probably are you already did make light of it, that the companies, they rather someone...
00:32:19
Conor Fowler
They'd rather people purchase once and never again than cater to the customer. And I find that so strange that they would rather you buy once and never buy again than just cater to the customers that you know are going to pay over and over again.
00:32:31
Conor Fowler
That's so interesting to me. And from what you said, it's a very similar thing.
00:32:34
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:32:36
Conor Fowler
Like, why why is that? Is it more money? Because I don't know.
00:32:40
Winston Jones
You know, i think about like, there's this thing of like entry to a brand or entry to play. And I think about how many brands,
00:32:52
Winston Jones
bank on like people want to be part of the brand so much they're willing to buy anything to get into it. Like the robe, for example.
00:33:03
Winston Jones
There's no reason why a cashmere sweater costs $1,000. Like it's 100% cashmere and it's, you know, made at the same mills as, you know, a number of other brands.
00:33:15
Winston Jones
And so people want to be part of, i think the whole marketing of wanting to be part of the in crowds, what drives, a lot of people to um only buy once and not buy ever again.
00:33:27
Winston Jones
Like you said, they're gonna spend right up to their last dollar they possibly can to say they're part of it. So yeah they'll walk around with like a bag charm that is from Prada, but they'll never actually gonna go in the store and buy Prada shoes, clothing, like that.
00:33:33
Conor Fowler
I made it.
00:33:43
Winston Jones
And to your point, Jamal, when it comes to like not wanting the returning customer, I think
00:33:51
Winston Jones
you make more money getting a bigger influx people to buy one time versus that customer who just buys that one pair of jeans every year over five years.
00:34:02
Conor Fowler
Well, they don't want you to buy...
00:34:02
Winston Jones
So.
00:34:04
Conor Fowler
like My father used to talk about these cars that I guess Toyota used to make that just would never, ever, ever die.
00:34:13
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:34:13
Conor Fowler
and so they stopped making them.
00:34:15
Winston Jones
Yeah. You lose money.
00:34:16
Conor Fowler
Because why on earth would you want to sell a customer something that they're only going to buy once?
00:34:20
Winston Jones
you lose money. Like, it's a whole conspiracy about iPhones, that when a new one comes out, the old one starts acting funny.
00:34:27
Conor Fowler
battery i don't think you ticket I don't think it's a conspiracy.
00:34:28
Winston Jones
Yeah, for sure.
00:34:30
Conor Fowler
like They have basically... they almost created forced obsolescence. They paid out for that. You know, they often they kind of patented it.
00:34:37
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:34:39
Conor Fowler
And so like, ah it is that way. And I think even if you look at the iPhones, like, i don't know, like iPhone seven, for example, Marvel, that's a old phone.
00:34:53
Winston Jones
It's funny because think about like when it comes to clothing, like really small brand, like small niche ones that literally cannot survive on a, like they get too big, it's over for them. And they almost want to stay small because they have more control over manufacturing, the marketing, how they display product.
00:35:12
Winston Jones
And so I think it's like, think about a brand like 316 where they don't have too many retailers and too many wholesalers and then they don't have more like two stores, if that much.
00:35:20
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:35:25
Conor Fowler
No. Yeah.
00:35:29
Winston Jones
And
00:35:29
Conor Fowler
And they're not selling a lot like they don't have huge inventory.
00:35:32
Winston Jones
And like, so once something is sold it out, like that's it. Like the most restock they did was those boots and they did that were like three times. And that was like a really small run each time. But you see what they do really well is making you ah feel a part of their brand. Like the founder making videos on how they produce jeans what it costs to produce jeans and how they ship them out and why they justify their pricing.
00:35:54
Winston Jones
That I can buy into because at least i know what's going on behind the scenes where I feel like I know where the money is going because I've seen XYZ happen. Where other brands, you may not even realize the price gone up and you spend it and you're like, wait, why though? like what What's different about these pants now? like Why are these jeans 200 where last year they were 125?
00:36:14
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:36:16
Winston Jones
like what where the Where's that $25 coming from? For what? You know what mean?
00:36:20
Conor Fowler
It's a reverse cost of living. Gotcha.
00:36:22
Winston Jones
Gotcha. Basically, gotcha.
00:36:23
Conor Fowler
Gotcha.
00:36:23
Winston Jones
Think about Jordans. like These Jordans have been retroing for years.
00:36:28
Conor Fowler
Decades.
00:36:29
Winston Jones
decades. How are
00:36:30
Conor Fowler
Well, and like, do you think, do you think people are, are kept poor by this?
00:36:35
Winston Jones
Yes.
00:36:36
Conor Fowler
Like you were talking about the Prada logo, like the Prada tag. I mean, and I do see in Baltimore like that's because it's, it's a, it's an affordable class increase, you know?
00:36:50
Winston Jones
Yes.
00:36:51
Conor Fowler
And so there's no, like, I don't know, like buying a house is not sexy. Saving up to buy a house is not sexy. It's like, uh,
00:36:58
Winston Jones
No. It's, it's, um, I, I, I, I was saying before, it's really about assimilation. And like you said, buying into the next class is an illusion.
00:37:09
Winston Jones
You can't buy yourself into that wealth gap.
00:37:09
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:37:12
Winston Jones
Like you, you're, you're fooling yourself.
00:37:12
Conor Fowler
Right. You can't... all Old money aesthetic. Right. Old money aesthetic is not going to make you a billionaire.
00:37:16
Winston Jones
um Founders don't wear logos.
00:37:20
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:37:20
Winston Jones
Bro, yes they do.
00:37:20
Conor Fowler
Right. Right. All that fucking entrepreneur shit. like they They just have a big-ass boat as well. That's it.
00:37:25
Winston Jones
Yes they do.
00:37:25
Conor Fowler
None of the other stuff.
00:37:26
Winston Jones
Yes they wear logos.
00:37:26
Conor Fowler
There's a massive yacht.
00:37:28
Winston Jones
Yeah, sorry.
00:37:28
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:37:29
Winston Jones
Oh, you're right. they're not They're not buying, you know, the expensive t-shirt because they bought a whole island instead. Like, they, like, cut it out.
00:37:35
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:37:37
Winston Jones
Let's stop trying to market this as, like, again, this quiet luxury. Oh, I'm real subtle. I'm, you know, making money.
00:37:43
Conor Fowler
It's like a grind set kind of mindset.
00:37:46
Winston Jones
Yeah. Like...
00:37:46
Conor Fowler
It's just that. Dude, you are going to be fucking like poor forever.
00:37:50
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:37:51
Conor Fowler
And that's what they want.
00:37:51
Winston Jones
I... i was talking to a friend of mine about this recently. I wrote an article saying like, you know, value is not earned, it's assigned. And think about Ralph Lauren, for example, their value. Five years ago in 2022, their stock was under a hundred dollars. It was like $90, something like that.
00:38:12
Winston Jones
If you look today, their worst stock price nine, sorry, 350, something like that.
00:38:17
Conor Fowler
enormous
00:38:17
Winston Jones
That's a, you know, substantial increase.
00:38:18
Conor Fowler
enormous
00:38:19
Winston Jones
For a brand that I chose them because they haven't really changed much about their aesthetic. Ralph Lauren has been the same since 1990 to 2010 to now and so on and so forth. And so what has changed?
00:38:32
Winston Jones
The environment has changed, right? People's values have been assigned differently. They haven't done anything significant in terms of like clothing quality or, you know, any new initiatives that make you feel like, oh yeah, this is way better than it was before.
00:38:46
Conor Fowler
Well, and it's their old stuff, right?
00:38:48
Winston Jones
Exactly, yeah.
00:38:48
Conor Fowler
That's the stuff that is popular is the stuff that is made in the nineties that was already made.
00:38:53
Winston Jones
Yeah, exactly.
00:38:54
Conor Fowler
So they're kind of resurrected by this, like, thing of the past. Right.
00:38:59
Winston Jones
They buy their own vintage, which is pretty neat.
00:38:59
Conor Fowler
Banana Republic. Right, right, right. They just came out with an archive collection and publish and that's most likely where they paid an an intern to go search for some of their old stuff because said it's archived. All that shit is on the island burning, polluting somebody.
00:39:11
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:39:11
Conor Fowler
Y'all got somebody to eBay some of the old stuff and sell it at crazy prices. One of the jackets I i actually bought for 50 bucks off eBay, they sell it for almost $200. I'm like, man, like the reselling thing has always been for me and you and them.
00:39:22
Conor Fowler
like it's never And now they're taking over the resale thing.
00:39:23
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:39:25
Conor Fowler
I'm like, we can't have nothing.
00:39:27
Winston Jones
yeah know and then And that's why it's felt like, a bike who's to say, okay, so this jacket back in the day, or so you know someone priced it for $50, what makes it now $350? I need you to tell me who's determining this market value.
00:39:40
Winston Jones
That's all assignment.
00:39:40
Conor Fowler
A little bit of anything here.
00:39:41
Winston Jones
like There's no real math or justification to say, you all no, no, this one's worth now $350 because of the all the aging and how the sewing was.
00:39:48
Conor Fowler
The clamor.
00:39:50
Winston Jones
No one cares about that, bro.
00:39:50
Conor Fowler
It's the clamor. Well, the economy and economics is made up.
00:39:51
Winston Jones
You you you just know you can say that.
00:39:57
Conor Fowler
And it was made up, by and large, by white people. So it's like, I feel the entire point of it is to enrich the lives of whites.
00:40:07
Conor Fowler
So like all of this stuff, when you think of an economic principle that doesn't really make very much sense, you're like, oh, it's because it's meant to fuck me over only.
00:40:18
Conor Fowler
Something I always think about.
00:40:19
Winston Jones
Pretty much.
00:40:23
Conor Fowler
ah Everything he said is true. As a black person, now you can I can appreciate it. i think Ta-Nehisi Coates, I don't know what he was, I forget what he was talking about, but he said, okay, now we know about what going to do. So what responsibility do we as consumers take from how much fat fashion or this or pricing? Like what responsibility do we, because if we stop, if say a third or 10% of us just say, you know what, we ain't buying shit for the next six months, we'll cripple.
00:40:47
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:40:47
Conor Fowler
They would fall to their knees. So what responsibility do we take to say, you know, we're not supporting that or we will support that or we're going to do something different or we're going to subvert. Like how much responsibility as a consumer do we really take? Cause we're the ones with the the power technically, the money.
00:40:59
Winston Jones
Yeah, I would say consumer is the most powerful person, but I think people aren't patient enough to see that power come into fruition.
00:41:10
Winston Jones
um I think most people have a very defeated mindset where it's like, well, what can I do? Like, whatever.
00:41:16
Conor Fowler
No, me.
00:41:16
Winston Jones
They're to keep doing it regardless. And so for myself personally, I do a lot of periods of like just no spend. And, you know, that means even secondhand shopping, like just trying to not consume. I can participate. i don't need to own it.
00:41:29
Winston Jones
And i think the second part of that is also we don't need to make our own stuff either. Like, I don't need... Yes, I'm not buying this brand anymore, but I don't need you to start your own brand either because you're going to fall into that same trap.
00:41:40
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:41:42
Winston Jones
You know, like...
00:41:43
Conor Fowler
you
00:41:45
Winston Jones
Capitalism is capitalism. like Just as leave it at that. there's no way to make this sustainable or better. so i don't need to buy any more stuff. I don't need someone else had to start their own thing for us.
00:41:56
Winston Jones
like No, please. Just let the brand go.
00:41:59
Conor Fowler
Let it die.
00:42:00
Winston Jones
It's in periods of of having less or doing without. and Buy into other things. Buy more into actual like skills and activities and experiences.
00:42:12
Winston Jones
I think that's
00:42:12
Conor Fowler
A sewing class, as in our last epiphany.
00:42:14
Winston Jones
you know Yeah, get more into stuff like that. Start doing more random activities. do i so I did this like a sketching co class. i was like, yeah, okay. This is nice.
00:42:21
Conor Fowler
Well, our last guest said i ah he took a sewing class.
00:42:21
Winston Jones
yo Find a... Yeah.
00:42:26
Conor Fowler
he wanted to He wanted to figure out how to, like, I don't know, how to do it from, yeah, dude.
00:42:26
Winston Jones
Is
00:42:32
Winston Jones
that Eugene?
00:42:33
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, yeah. From beginning to end.
00:42:34
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:42:35
Conor Fowler
Yeah, exactly.
00:42:36
Winston Jones
Good friend.
00:42:36
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:42:36
Winston Jones
talk to him all the time.
00:42:39
Conor Fowler
Yeah, as soon as we, I think, as I seen him, was like, he has to come on. I could just tell he would be, some people some people are great guests and whatever, but like, I knew like, oh yeah, he's going to be, i could just tell, so down to earth.
00:42:49
Winston Jones
Very genuine.
00:42:50
Conor Fowler
if You too, like, just a guy that just wants, I think the reason why, another reason I like, I like to put that shit on myself and I enjoy it for me, but like, what's better than talking about different classes and weights of denim or shamebrake shirts, or just nerding out about clothes?
00:42:57
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:43:03
Conor Fowler
Like, that's that's the shit to me.
00:43:03
Winston Jones
Literally, literally, yeah.
00:43:05
Conor Fowler
Like, anytime you can do that, that's cool.
00:43:05
Winston Jones
think and that's And that's another thing, too, want touch upon is like learning how to consume things you enjoy that don't require spending money. For example, just now you said like nerding out about you know different chambray shirts.
00:43:20
Winston Jones
i don't have to go buy these shirts and like compare them. I can just do research. I can learn about you know sewing techniques or mills and like all the things that are adjacent to the actual buying the clothing to still feel like
00:43:31
Conor Fowler
scratches the itch kind of that are creative, right?
00:43:33
Winston Jones
Exactly. Exactly. and And that's what I started doing is like reading books or writing about it instead. you know, things that again are adjacent to going shopping that don't, that aren actually shopping.
00:43:47
Conor Fowler
I usually text him or he'll text me about some, some shit. dip Cause I talked to my wife and her eyes start to glaze over. I'm like, yep.
00:43:52
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:43:53
Conor Fowler
Nevermind. Like, you know what I mean? He'll text me something. I'll tell you like, Hey, is this, is this awful? Is this crazy? And we'll just shoot the shit or he'll send me shit.
00:43:58
Winston Jones
yeah
00:43:59
Conor Fowler
Cause you gotta know sometimes. I mean, yeah.
00:44:01
Winston Jones
I don't know. need a second opinion. need a second opinion.
00:44:04
Conor Fowler
Um, on that topic, I was taken by this quote from your sub stack, uh, by the indomitable Miles Davis, man.
00:44:12
Winston Jones
Ever.
00:44:13
Conor Fowler
Sometimes it takes a long time to feel like yourself. Huh? Right? And I'm saying, like, damn, really people have been having this idea forever?
00:44:26
Winston Jones
since
00:44:27
Conor Fowler
Kind of. Well, it seems like we, and not to get into this too much, but we looked at your... We went all the way back on your TikTok. We went, real yeah, very easily. As far go.
00:44:37
Conor Fowler
As far as we could go, we did.
00:44:37
Winston Jones
yeah Since
00:44:38
Conor Fowler
Unrecognizable. You're unrecognizable. And this is, like, only, what, three years ago?
00:44:44
Winston Jones
since I was teaching?
00:44:45
Conor Fowler
how about your
00:44:45
Winston Jones
Yeah, three years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:46
Conor Fowler
So it's like, literally thirty years yeah, you look like a completely different person and you can see like the way that the sort of technological aesthetic has changed for making videos and making like kind of style ah content for lack of a better term.
00:44:49
Winston Jones
Only three years ago. Yes, bro.
00:45:03
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:45:03
Conor Fowler
So I was wondering, like, do you feel like yourself and how how did you
Personal Style and Authenticity
00:45:11
Conor Fowler
get to that point? I mean, how how long is it taking you to get to that point?
00:45:16
Winston Jones
he' funny I'm thinking about all the hair dye had and I have both.
00:45:20
Conor Fowler
but Was it was a green or purple? It was like ah a reddish or something? Yeah, both. I know. figured which one I seen.
00:45:24
Winston Jones
have both. You know, it's funny. I feel like I watched a movie, Jay Kelly, last night, actually. Really good movie. Recommend it on Netflix. It kind of harps on that. The hardest thing to do is be yourself.
00:45:39
Winston Jones
And I think once I let go of...
00:45:39
Conor Fowler
Mm-hmm.
00:45:44
Winston Jones
who I thought people would receive best. That's when started feeling more comfortable in myself. You know, cause growing up, you know, you're you're a star athlete in high school. So everyone looks at you was like, oh, you you're the basketball player, you're the football player. Like you're you're the star athlete. So you fit into that mold. You start acting and playing into that.
00:46:03
Winston Jones
Then it goes into, you know, college like oh you're you know you're the you're speaker at the graduation you're like the most likable person you're like mr popular you play into that next okay well what does that person do how do they dress what do they say well you know are they are they this and that and third they get to your career and you're like okay like i'm a career person now everyone's looking at me it's like you're like you're doing so well have a great job to them and you're like okay like i don't feel that way but they must feel they feel that way so how do i meet their expectations
00:46:11
Conor Fowler
You're him.
00:46:36
Winston Jones
And then once i decided to leave the teaching profession, and I love teaching. I still like being around children. But think i once I let go of the...
00:46:49
Winston Jones
image that I had to fulfill of being like, you have a good job, you went to school for free, like you're a teacher, like this is a picturesque life. Once I let go of that expectation, that's when i started of feeling more like myself, or if at least had the courage to explore things I might be interested in outside of the norm, so to speak.
00:47:06
Winston Jones
Hence, you know, dyeing the hair, trying different, you know, crop tops and styles of shirts and traveling.
00:47:11
Conor Fowler
Which is part of it. That's all part of it.
00:47:13
Winston Jones
It's all part of it.
00:47:13
Conor Fowler
We're not even going to have to edit that.
00:47:14
Winston Jones
So,
00:47:15
Conor Fowler
We're not going to have to edit that at all.
00:47:15
Winston Jones
oh
00:47:17
Conor Fowler
That is like a perfect one minute clip. of yeah so You see that. You're going to see that. so
00:47:22
Winston Jones
I'm going to need that too. I'm very happy that met. I'm talking about it.
00:47:24
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Extemporaneous. Very well done.
00:47:27
Winston Jones
But ah yeah, I think I always knew what I liked as a kid. And so I always had to think about as my younger self who didn't have enough context of the world or enough opinions to influence me, what was I into?
00:47:44
Winston Jones
And how did I not just dress, but music, arts, TV shows. I love cartoons. and I was glad we watched cartoons to this day. um You know, being really into like,
00:47:55
Winston Jones
house music and like these weird genres of jazz and stuff like that and not trying to fit into an aesthetic of, you know, oh, if you're in your 20s, you got listen to this artist or this music like you should be with your friend groups and interested in that.
00:48:08
Conor Fowler
Because you said you took a drawing class.
00:48:10
Winston Jones
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:11
Conor Fowler
How did you i mean, just quick, because like that, I feel like that is something that we want to publicize as something that you can do, It's like you can take a class.
00:48:18
Winston Jones
Yeah. Literally. So I was always, my my my mom and my aunt, they are like really good artists, like can sketch like really well.
00:48:29
Winston Jones
So as a kid, I had like a figurine sketchbook. So I was doing art classes a lot. And then when I got into high school, I took like AP art class. I was like, I had like a little portfolio I was working on.
00:48:38
Conor Fowler
I
00:48:40
Winston Jones
But again, when you're younger and you're being... I guess, taught from this idea of like, that's a fun hobby, but you need to make sure you have a job.
00:48:49
Conor Fowler
bet you were good at drawing if I had to guess.
00:48:51
Winston Jones
You know what mean? So you start letting go of some of those fun things, those hobbies, and focusing
00:48:58
Winston Jones
that. I'm pretty good. I mean, if my fiance always says I'm good at everything I try firsthand. She's like, why are you good at this? Because we were...
00:49:04
Conor Fowler
Well, because you were saying, like, well, so you're the star athlete. And I was like, I don't know how convincingly I make star athlete, but I'm honored. Yeah.
00:49:15
Winston Jones
It's one of those things where like, and this is not to brag, but most things that I tried like for the first time, I wound up picking on it really fast and I can do it. And it's like, I've been with snowboarding like two years ago for the first time and was on like a little mini hill, went up and down like twice and fell. Okay, I gotta got it now.
00:49:34
Winston Jones
Went regular mountain, came down and she was like, what the hell? Like you can do this? was ah, I guess I could. it i used skateboard back in the day so maybe I just kind of picked up on it.
00:49:40
Conor Fowler
Well, you're ah if you're an athlete, I feel like it's – I snowboarded. It is similar to skateboarding. It's like –
00:49:48
Winston Jones
Yeah. It is muscle memory, I guess. But,
00:49:51
Conor Fowler
right. You know what?
00:49:53
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:49:53
Conor Fowler
Something think about as as well is people that, as they get older or whatever they try younger, when you stop exploring – it becomes very difficult to do new things when you just go to work and you stop exploring.
00:50:07
Conor Fowler
But if you're a person that's always into exploring, whether that's art, reading, you can, because you understand so deeply starting new things and looking like a dumbass.
00:50:15
Winston Jones
then
00:50:16
Conor Fowler
And I think that's the part, I'm pretty sure you probably, you pick up things, but because you probably look like a dumbass, probably the most out the people you know, you know what mean?
00:50:23
Winston Jones
Yeah, I would say that's probably the main thing to learn. It's not an easy thing to learn, but embracing the cringe, I call it. If you want to be successful at something, you're going to be cringey.
00:50:38
Winston Jones
going to looked at as like obsessive or cringy or weird, whatever it may be. Like and I remember when I first is the left the teaching profession and I went back to working in retail and I was like, oh, want make like fashion content.
00:50:51
Winston Jones
That was cringy. That was like, it's a little out there, just a grown man making, you know, fit check video, talking to nobody basically. um And now people look at me now, it's like wow, how'd you go your account so much? Like, what'd you do? like i've been doing the same thing since I've been doing. You just...
00:51:06
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:51:06
Winston Jones
you didn't You didn't want to stand with withstand the feedback and the criticism or the criticism.
00:51:10
Conor Fowler
You wasn't with me shooting in the gym, you know? Right.
00:51:13
Winston Jones
You know what I mean?
00:51:14
Conor Fowler
Right.
00:51:15
Winston Jones
That's my high yearbook quote.
00:51:15
Conor Fowler
In the trenches.
00:51:17
Winston Jones
That's my high school yearbook quote, so I'm still glad you said that.
00:51:17
Conor Fowler
well You wasn't there. Well, it's like,
00:51:21
Conor Fowler
yeah, you have to, you have to fail and you have to experiment. It's like a, you ultimately have to have confidence in yourself.
00:51:33
Winston Jones
Yeah, and confidence is definitely, people say, how do you get confident? um I don't think anyone's ever fully confident. i think people just get more courageous.
00:51:44
Winston Jones
So I think and you can get courage from doing the thing you were scared of. You the courage after the fact. So, yeah.
00:51:52
Conor Fowler
What they say, how do you get self-esteem by doing esteemable acts?
00:51:59
Winston Jones
Literally that. like you like you You get those traits after you prove to yourself, oh, okay.
00:52:00
Conor Fowler
You know?
00:52:04
Winston Jones
that wasn't That wasn't as bad as I thought. And when it comes to my style, at least, I think I was so trustworthy of like my coolness as a person. like My personality, I knew would carry me over the outfit.
00:52:19
Winston Jones
So instead of dressing, I was like, just going to put on what I like and comfortable in first. Because that was the first thing. I was like, hey am i comfortable? I feel uncomfortable. I can walk around comfortably. that's gonna be half the battle. I walk different.
00:52:30
Winston Jones
I hold my head different. Okay. And then it just came a matter of like, all right, like, I think I'm a, you know, pretty handsome guy. I got my life together. I speak well. It's like, no matter what I put on, are gonna feel, you know, I'm cool guy no matter what.
00:52:44
Winston Jones
So I was like, that's whatever.
00:52:45
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:52:45
Winston Jones
like
00:52:46
Conor Fowler
Not to say fashion and style doesn't matter, but I hate to say it because you can't just put on anything, but low key, like... But you you could put on anything.
00:52:56
Winston Jones
What did I say?
00:52:58
Conor Fowler
I'm not talking about you. i't talk about you I'm talking about you. wear I've seen things that I actually don't like on people and say, you know what? I think it works just because of how they they carry. And I think that's a really big part of style and fashion is being comfortable first and foremost. And how you carry yourself, people will will feel that.
00:53:15
Winston Jones
Yeah, people aura, you know, they can they can tell.
00:53:17
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, all right.
00:53:19
Winston Jones
um And I think for me, once I stopped trying to like,
00:53:25
Winston Jones
excuse me, get compliments on my outfits, that's how I started dressing better. I think sometimes, especially nowadays, people go out hoping someone's going to stop them or notice their outfit or compliment it.
00:53:37
Winston Jones
And so they wind up putting on too many things or just too outlandish or something that's totally uncomfortable. And then you can tell, you can see it on them. You're like, got too much going on.
00:53:47
Conor Fowler
Yeah. See, this is that, like, I have said this before. It's like, when you don't have a partner, a girlfriend, whatever, and you're out there and you're like trying, you everyone knows, everyone knows that you're pathetic.
00:54:01
Winston Jones
oop
00:54:03
Winston Jones
It's so nice.
00:54:05
Conor Fowler
Like they don't want to fuck with you at all because when you're alone, people can tell.
00:54:07
Winston Jones
Then like, we see you.
00:54:11
Winston Jones
Yeah. iss It's very tough. It's very, I always have a bunch of like wives or girlfriends like will comment or DM like, I wish my boyfriend would dress like this whatever.
00:54:23
Winston Jones
I'm like, Well, tell him. Like, tell him.
00:54:26
Conor Fowler
yeah yeah
00:54:27
Winston Jones
Like, get start slow. Encourage him. Like, you got to give some compliments at the house first. You know, it's it's like little kids. Like, when little kids go to school and they, why are you so confident? are you well my I come from a household of encouragement and love.
00:54:40
Winston Jones
So let's start putting that out there.
00:54:42
Conor Fowler
Yeah. Hell yeah. And not to say like boo men, but like men generally are not receiving compliments are not like people are not saying like, uh, maybe like a little less tight on the shirt.
00:54:58
Conor Fowler
You know, people are just like either fuck you or say nothing.
00:54:58
Winston Jones
Yeah.
00:55:02
Winston Jones
Pretty much. I think for men, especially as as someone who's kind of always been into their look, there also was this big thing of being, you know, fearful of being called gay.
00:55:15
Conor Fowler
right I'm glad you went there.
00:55:16
Winston Jones
and point You know what mean? Like that was a big thing. Like I remember the first time I wore like loafers, my jeans rolled up and like a people were like, oh,
00:55:19
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:55:24
Conor Fowler
Loafers. Well, he's lighting his loafers, as they said in the 1940s.
00:55:28
Winston Jones
You know what I mean? so Someone might be a little a little sugar in the tank or whatever.
00:55:29
Conor Fowler
Like loafers? Like, that's crazy to think of. Now, I know back then you were like, oh, now you would think about like, this is barely...
00:55:38
Winston Jones
you
00:55:39
Conor Fowler
This is not, if someone would consider it, yeah, like, for real.
00:55:40
Winston Jones
This is a starter kit. This is a starter kit.
00:55:44
Conor Fowler
I mean, i used to get called the F-slur all the time.
00:55:46
Winston Jones
I still have pictures and like videos of myself. like from like college, like wearing certain things and knowing that people were like, ooh, Winston might be a little, you know, on the flamboyance. I wore like, have an old video. I wore a pair of like smoking slippers with like a suit one time.
00:56:03
Conor Fowler
Of course.
00:56:03
Winston Jones
e smith This is in college. I have, like, a video of it. And this is, like, 2016. I felt like a very polo. I was like, yeah, I got my smoking slippers on. They velvet, navy blue suit.
00:56:14
Winston Jones
I wore like, some banquet. I remember, like, people weren't necessarily complimenting, but they were, like, noticing, oh, nice little slippers see you got there or whatever. You know, they're, like making, like, kind of little jabs at it. But now I look at it now that, like, I see some people, are like,
00:56:30
Winston Jones
try to recreate that or or do the most with it so it's just funny you seeing how again things get assigned as cool and all the time a person like say this is hot and then now just a trickle effect and so i think i can't remember who said it was someone said the most stylish people are usually done with the trend before it even starts which i'm like okay i guess it's kind of true but
00:56:39
Conor Fowler
Trent said it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:56:56
Conor Fowler
It's a little like eye rolling, but that's like how this is.
00:56:58
Winston Jones
I was little high rolling.
00:56:59
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:56:59
Winston Jones
was like, all right, I looking Scottish people and wasn't already on the internet to be honest.
00:57:00
Conor Fowler
Yeah,
00:57:04
Winston Jones
who don't even know about any trends or anything.
00:57:04
Conor Fowler
that's that's true.
00:57:07
Winston Jones
They just know what they like and they just go on about that. Like I always love looking at people who are older and how they dress.
00:57:12
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:57:13
Winston Jones
I'm like, you've been, you've been a committed new balance person since like whatever, you know, 2000 because they're comfortable for you.
00:57:17
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
00:57:21
Winston Jones
and this isn't your go-to sneaker. You're not trying to fit a norm core or dad core or this core or whatever it may be. It's just your thing. You know i mean? So, or you saw a movie and stuff like that I encouraged you.
00:57:33
Winston Jones
So that's just,
00:57:34
Conor Fowler
Definitely not looking to be the old money aesthetic.
00:57:37
Winston Jones
No, they are. they That's their entire lifestyle.
00:57:39
Conor Fowler
They're just old. They're just old. They're just old.
00:57:41
Winston Jones
It's old. Old and no but
00:57:46
Conor Fowler
Man, we're running up against it now. I want to say the mark of a good interview is when you have 20 or 30 questions and you don't hardly ask any of them because it's just right.
00:57:55
Winston Jones
yeah
00:57:56
Conor Fowler
It's just to be just like flowing and riding out. I guess we got a couple more questions.
00:57:58
Winston Jones
yeah
00:58:01
Conor Fowler
I know you said you got a lot of your style from your parents. Like they not your style necessarily, but like what they thought was good for you. It actually was. What was the first thing that you remember as a kid or whatever age that you would like clamor it for? Like, oh, I've got to have that.
00:58:14
Winston Jones
Oh, camo cargo shorts.
00:58:16
Conor Fowler
Hell yeah.
00:58:17
Winston Jones
Camo cargo shorts from Old Navy. And I had those for, I want to say like five years. at a point where the pocket stitching was coming off,
00:58:30
Winston Jones
And my sister wrote me a birthday card with a picture of the camo cargo shorts saying like, happy anniversary to these shorts. Like, you never let these go. And like, I wanted those so badly. Got them. Welcome to the ground.
00:58:44
Winston Jones
I went to the second thing that like I spent with my own money that my mom definitely almost killed me for was a billionaire boys club t-shirt. I was super into Pharrell and that whole like skateboard pee thing.
00:58:57
Winston Jones
So I remember I had a vacation coming up. She gave me money for the vacation because was going away with like family friends by myself. We went to the city to Soho. I was like, oh, I want to stop in the store real quick. Like BBC, want to see how it looks inside or whatever.
00:59:11
Winston Jones
I run in, I come back out the bag. I get in the car. She's like, what's that? I'm like, oh, oh, oh yeah, it's it's a t-shirt. At the time, these shirts were $80, which was like,
00:59:22
Conor Fowler
that's crazy back then.
00:59:24
Winston Jones
And I'm in high school.
00:59:24
Conor Fowler
It's crazy now.
00:59:24
Winston Jones
$80 on a t-shirt was like, and you lost your mind? And yeah, I had the t-shirt for, I wish I still had it I had it for, you know, I made sure got my money's worth. i I wore it to death. So those those two things were like signature young Winston moments where it' like, I actively saw this on like Wiz Khalifa or something or Pharrell, wanted to go buy it, saved up Christmas money or whatever to go get it. And like, I kept those things forever, forever, ever.
00:59:51
Conor Fowler
That's what drip was about saving up your Christmas money. I remember that. It takes me back.
00:59:55
Winston Jones
Man, that was like waiting all year for Christmas just to go buy that one thing that won't even probably be available anymore.
01:00:03
Conor Fowler
So did you like, did you like have designs of joining the military is the camo removed?
01:00:07
Winston Jones
Yeah.
01:00:09
Conor Fowler
Well, cause that's like, was and when I was a kid, I was wearing camo shit when I was seven years old, because I was like, this is what I want to do with my life.
01:00:15
Winston Jones
Nah, I think literally the camo short thing was just, I saw it on somebody else.
01:00:16
Conor Fowler
Of course. i'm Sure.
01:00:20
Winston Jones
I literally saw it on like, like said, like the blog. here I was like, a is big Sean, like Wiz Khalifa and that whole like XXL freshman thing.
01:00:25
Conor Fowler
I was like, that's dope.
01:00:27
Winston Jones
I was like, oh, camo shorts is fire. Like I'm in some camo carbo shorts.
01:00:30
Conor Fowler
I need that.
01:00:30
Winston Jones
And they went with everything. I mean, not to be funny, you like they are camouflage.
01:00:32
Conor Fowler
need that.
01:00:34
Winston Jones
I was like, yeah, i can wear a black tee, gray, white t-shirt.
01:00:37
Conor Fowler
Camo is versatile. It is.
01:00:38
Winston Jones
Every sneaker I had went with like, no one, Wale was like a big influence. I was like, yeah, wearing LeBron's with my camo shorts. Like we're good.
01:00:45
Conor Fowler
Well, because sneakers are usually bright, right? yeah And so camo is very like subdued, sort of.
01:00:50
Winston Jones
Exactly. Even back then, I already knew juxtaposition.
01:00:51
Conor Fowler
depends.
01:00:53
Winston Jones
I was like, okay, camo shorts with these bright basketball sneakers.
01:00:56
Conor Fowler
the bright orange sneakers is going to be tight. It's going to pop. it's one pop Yeah, exactly. And it's weird, right? Because like the hunting community has orange as their sign, right?
01:01:10
Conor Fowler
and So it's like, bo right?
01:01:11
Winston Jones
It just worked.
01:01:12
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:01:12
Winston Jones
worry I don't know. I guess I was already tapped in, you know?
01:01:15
Conor Fowler
Yo, you was ahead of years ahead of your time.
01:01:17
Winston Jones
I was ahead my game, man. I wish I had pictures still from it because, yeah, those were some interesting moments. Okay.
01:01:22
Conor Fowler
So you want to go to pacaly dirts question the apocalypse? Sure. We'd be curious to see. ah So we try to ask this to a lot of guests. The apocalypse has happened.
01:01:34
Conor Fowler
War of the Worlds, the aliens coming, they blowing the world. up You got to go. You got a light bag. You got to pack anything, everything you need. You got to be on your back. What clothes are you taking?
01:01:45
Winston Jones
Okay, well, um I'm gonna say what I'm wearing and what I'm putting in the bag. Can I do that?
01:01:49
Conor Fowler
That's fair. That's fair.
01:01:50
Winston Jones
Okay, okay. So wearing Ralph Lauren, Andrew Chinos. like I got him on right now, actually.
01:01:54
Conor Fowler
I got him on right now too!
01:01:54
Winston Jones
Well, I'm already good.
01:01:55
Conor Fowler
but ah so
01:01:57
Winston Jones
I'm good.
01:01:57
Conor Fowler
Look at this! What the hell?
01:01:59
Winston Jones
Exactly, exactly. Same fit. Oh, shit. real
01:02:02
Conor Fowler
What the fuck?
01:02:02
Winston Jones
Wait. What?
01:02:05
Conor Fowler
Yeah, these are the big boy.
01:02:05
Winston Jones
Yeah, so that's that's all.
01:02:06
Conor Fowler
These are the big boy pants.
01:02:07
Winston Jones
What I'm wearing right now is on body.
01:02:08
Conor Fowler
These are like 46 ways.
01:02:09
Winston Jones
It's these chino pants, this brown belt, denim shirt, Henley, and I'll probably put a denim jacket over it.
01:02:12
Conor Fowler
no da da
01:02:16
Winston Jones
So that's on body. On body for sure. um The backpack is going to have...
01:02:24
Winston Jones
This is it tough. Backpack's going to have tweed, tweed blazer. For sure. you know, just in case have a special dinner during the apocalypse.
01:02:34
Conor Fowler
Gotta go ride a horse.
01:02:35
Winston Jones
Yeah, definitely a cable knit sweater. My Levi's 505s, love goes to death.
01:02:42
Conor Fowler
Of course.
01:02:44
Winston Jones
um Chuck Taylor's In the Book Bag.
01:02:48
Conor Fowler
That's probably the best answer we've had so far. Yeah, it is. Because you're staying to the rules, but I can see the vision.
01:02:54
Winston Jones
You know I'm saying? Like I have, I have versatility going on. Um, plenty of like white gym socks, like these like convenience store.
01:03:03
Conor Fowler
so I think I was about to say, are those, what's the brand you like? ah American Trench. Yeah, thought those were American Trench.
01:03:12
Winston Jones
um I'm gonna look into the, I do want those though, but yeah, these are like from the gas station. I get the the same like convenience store. but yeah um
01:03:21
Winston Jones
yeah what would i us i was the kind of fit in there buck mason t-shirt the pima cotton you like two of those on deck um and then yeah probably just my probably like my seco like chronograph like just plastic watch on dayck
01:03:38
Conor Fowler
What kind of shoes did you say you were wearing? You got chucks.
01:03:40
Winston Jones
oh sho that's right um
01:03:41
Conor Fowler
Because you got the chucks in the bag, which are good.
01:03:43
Winston Jones
Yeah, I keep turning it back, but on feet, I'm wearing my um Caldwell, no, Caswell boots. They're like army like like Red Wing Army Ranger kind of boot thing.
01:03:55
Winston Jones
Yeah, brown boots, for sure.
01:03:57
Conor Fowler
That's a solid, a solid backpack. because Like I said, that was probably the best answer we've gotten to this question.
01:04:02
Winston Jones
Everything can fold up nice. You know, I got warmth.
01:04:04
Conor Fowler
It is.
01:04:05
Winston Jones
I got coolness. Yeah, yeah.
01:04:07
Conor Fowler
and And just in case the date, then the watch too. I think we have, have we had somebody put a watch in
Conclusion and Shout-outs
01:04:11
Conor Fowler
there? And I think the watch is a nice touch. Watch is totally essential. Yeah.
01:04:14
Winston Jones
why does it because if If the sun hits right, I could use it to like, I don't know, light my way.
01:04:18
Conor Fowler
nice cloud in
01:04:23
Conor Fowler
Well, ah this has been terrific.
01:04:23
Winston Jones
I'm ready. I'm ready for the apocalypse.
01:04:27
Conor Fowler
we thank you for coming and um we usually give i don't usually close the show out because matt usually does but so we usually give our guest a chance to shout out their instagram account or whatever they want so not to put you on the spot
01:04:41
Winston Jones
Okay.
01:04:44
Winston Jones
I'm going to give a shout out to all the educators and all the educators of America. We need to make sure we donate and support those teachers because the youth needs that guidance because this is going to be what's going to be leading us in this next generation.
01:05:00
Winston Jones
So
01:05:01
Conor Fowler
And you want these people to know how to read.
01:05:04
Winston Jones
read to write. I need them to know how to do math. I need them to unlock everything.
01:05:10
Conor Fowler
Don't listen to J.L.
01:05:10
Winston Jones
Everything.
01:05:10
Conor Fowler
Santana. Don't listen to him.
01:05:11
Winston Jones
Yo, Omar.
01:05:14
Conor Fowler
Like, brother, are you are you are you well?
01:05:17
Conor Fowler
Come on. He's an educator, the He's a Kevin Gates affiliate, right?
01:05:17
Winston Jones
There's, there's, yeah.
01:05:21
Winston Jones
Whatever he is, is not good.
01:05:24
Conor Fowler
Well, if you're a Kevin Gates affiliate, it's not good either.
01:05:25
Winston Jones
say You're on the right track, clearly.
01:05:29
Conor Fowler
Yeah, no.
01:05:29
Winston Jones
But yeah, so that that's my shout out. Everyone knows who Mr. and Jones is, but need the other misters and misses of the world to get their flowers and due diligence as well, for sure.
01:05:35
Conor Fowler
Step up. For sure. Yeah, he's an educator and I work with ah kids as development to disabled. So it's kind of all three of us.
01:05:44
Winston Jones
We're in the same boat, yeah. It's going to be special ed and psychology.
01:05:45
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:05:47
Winston Jones
So yeah, we're the same boat.
01:05:47
Conor Fowler
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a definite there's a definite like Venn diagram of educators and menswear interest. Yes.
01:05:57
Winston Jones
Oh, I think it's, I think I always said that kids were the best judge of the outfits, honestly.
01:05:57
Conor Fowler
Okay.
01:06:01
Conor Fowler
yes
01:06:02
Winston Jones
They're the best people.
01:06:02
Conor Fowler
Yes, and that's why the kids always call my wallabies white man shoes.
01:06:07
Winston Jones
Which is so funny if they knew this the other state contacts of those.
01:06:11
Conor Fowler
Right.
01:06:13
Winston Jones
and
01:06:13
Conor Fowler
But context, context is everything. So
01:06:15
Winston Jones
Context is everything. Context is everything, for sure. No, this was a lot of fun. I greatly appreciate it, for sure.
01:06:20
Conor Fowler
we appreciate it, man, for sure.
01:06:22
Winston Jones
This was a great time. loving to a conversation about not just menswear, but, you know, just life and how the world works and through through the lens of clothing. You know, i mean, it's very exciting.
01:06:32
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:06:33
Winston Jones
It's always fun. And thanks for reading Substack, too. I really appreciate that.
01:06:36
Conor Fowler
Yeah, dude.
01:06:36
Winston Jones
Yep.
01:06:36
Conor Fowler
And that's the thesis of the show is like clothing through many lenses. Yeah, because you're not just one thing.
01:06:40
Winston Jones
Nope.
01:06:41
Conor Fowler
You don't just wear clothes. Like that's not all any of us are. Yeah, we contain multitudes.
01:06:45
Winston Jones
Yeah.
01:06:47
Conor Fowler
So um I'm Connor Flower at The Real Connor Flower. Jamal Taylor at Jamal underscore Tariq. If you're ever in the area from D.C. to Baltimore, pull up.
01:06:59
Conor Fowler
Yeah, hit us up.
01:06:59
Winston Jones
For sure.
01:07:00
Conor Fowler
We'll come to New York.
01:07:01
Winston Jones
I'm gonna track them next spring.
01:07:01
Conor Fowler
Yeah.
01:07:02
Winston Jones
I wanna see some cherry blossoms again. So I'll make a visit around that time. Dope.
01:07:06
Conor Fowler
Yeah, sounds good.
01:07:08
Winston Jones
Appreciate y'all.
01:07:10
Conor Fowler
Yeah, well, I'll press stop here and...