Transcript
Conor Fowler: Hello and welcome to 2026. It will probably be like late January by the time you hear this. So we're doing a sort of time travel as we are, as we're always doing with this show.
Conor Fowler: We are joined by Renato Pagnani, who is awesome. We are joined again. ah it's good to be It's good to be live again. it send that's I'll start all'll start us um
matt: yeah yeah but thank you Renato for continuing our tradition this is the third year now I think we've done this so
Renato Pagnani: I think so. it's ah It's great to be back. I do enjoy this tradition we've created and like Connor said, any day you wake up is a good day.
Conor Fowler: hell yeah
matt: true true how's how's life treating you these days Renato
Renato Pagnani: Life is good. It's chaotic. um It seems to be getting busier and busier and and doesn't relent, but in in a good way. um It probably was one of the busiest years of my life. um So my daughter, Leona, is now, she's almost 17 months old. so So this year, or last year, I suppose, was um such a fun year, the amount of of growing she did. and the development was was insane, you know, from being basically a helpless potato
Renato Pagnani: to what what she is now, which is like a very a very sentient and independent girl who has opinions and has bits and wants to make you laugh. um So that's ah that's been a ton of fun to see to see her progress. And I mean, it sounds cliche, but like it really has sort of like...
Renato Pagnani: um made everything seem like wonderful again, you know, to be able to see it through her eyes. Like i think for the first time in like 20 years, I'm like, man, I'm excited for Christmas just because obviously she was alive last year for Christmas in the end of 2024 because she was born in August, but it, you know,
matt: ah Right, right.
Renato Pagnani: meant nothing to her and then this year it meant more to her like she still you know hasn't quite grasped um what it all means but you know she every time she sees santa she says ho ho ho and again she doesn't know who santa is or what he means but but she knows a big red guy with a beard and um makes the sound so she does it and she like whenever she sees a christmas tree that's lit up she says wow so like it's It's appealing to her and she likes to open up presents now, um which is funny to see.
Renato Pagnani: so yeah, it's more the year has mostly been keeping up with her, trying to keep her alive and helping her thrive as much as possible.
matt: Right.
matt: Totally. Totally. Hey, were you, um, have you done a lot or did you do a lot of writing in 2025 also like on top of everything else?
Renato Pagnani: i The year started in terms of my freelancing quite quite slow because you know i I didn't want to take too much time away from like having to you know watch Leona and I wanted to help Bailey out too when she had an opportunity to leave.
Renato Pagnani: um But then it did slowly start to ramp up. One of my one of my friends became the editor-in-chief of the local glossy magazine in town.
matt: Oh, cool.
Renato Pagnani: in in March called Edify. And it's sort of like the an institution in Edmonton. um He's now no longer the editor. He resigned ah a few weeks ago.
Renato Pagnani: And that's a story for another ah podcast. um However, um I'd written for the magazine for for a decade.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: And what once he became editor in chief, he reached out and was throwing me a bunch of work. And then i wrote a few pieces um for Complex over the year.
Renato Pagnani: And then um about a month ago, I made my debut in GQ, which I'm very excited about.
matt: Oh, that's awesome.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yes, we saw, we saw, because we do follow you, of course, more ways than one.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: I mean, it's like your career trajectory has been like the right one, right? I mean, I feel like ah on the up and up, definitely.
Renato Pagnani: Well, i appreciate that. it's ah It's been a long time coming to get that byline. Like, honestly, I've been probably, well, seriously pitching them for for two or three years. so So that's, you know, a culmination of of three years, or three years of...
Renato Pagnani: of pitching editors and i mean, most of the time, you know, it's just like, oh, I like the timing doesn't work right. Or like we have somebody covering that idea already. um And this one just seemed to work out.
Renato Pagnani: So for anybody who hasn't had a chance to read the article, um it's about the and NHL's new relaxed dress code. So until until this season, all players have been required to wear like full suiting to and from games.
Conor Fowler: And that's like an aberration, right, in professionals?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, they're the last major sports league, for sure, in the last major sports league in North America that had such a strict dress code.
Conor Fowler: But by now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: NBA and NFL especially. I'm not sure when the and MLB changed, but ah the NFL and NBA have changed for a while now, and and I think it's been a great thing for for that league and their players and expressing themselves and and also you know drawing attention to that league in ah in ah in a positive way, um just you know in terms of marketing and
Conor Fowler: Why do you think it took them as long as it did?
Renato Pagnani: The NHL?
Conor Fowler: yeah i mean, are they just like a slower moving organization than the others? They all seem like very archaic, right?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, um a few reasons.
Conor Fowler: They're all
Renato Pagnani: The biggest one is like hockey is a very conservative sport, and I don't even mean like politically, although I would probably say it is too, but it just moves very slowly.
Conor Fowler: Gretzky is a Trumper, right?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, you know Canada's finest is is buddies with Donald, um which im i'm not I'm not surprised about.
Conor Fowler: right
Renato Pagnani: I mean, rich people are friends with rich people, right? Like, they have class class solidarity when we the rest of us need more of.
Conor Fowler: yeah yeah yeah right
Renato Pagnani: um
matt: Thank you.
Renato Pagnani: But... Yeah, um they're just slow moving and hockey is very much like a um a culture where it's like, the teeth they always say that the crest is more important, crest on the front is more important than the name on the back, right?
Renato Pagnani: Individuality is actually kind of historically been frowned upon in hockey, right? You don't want to stick out, you don't want to... um Show any sort of individual flair so you know suits were I think ah a way to sort of to do that i mean they make I mean make perhaps is a strong word but it is Enforced in a lot of settings by like even like 10 year olds who play hockey in Canada wear suits to games um Yeah, which is which is ridiculous ridiculous.
Conor Fowler: No pun intended. Really?
Conor Fowler: really
matt: Oh, wow
Renato Pagnani: Let them be kids man um
Conor Fowler: Because it's kind of like Jamal talks about like the respectability politics thing. i feel like it is in that vein, but not in the usual way.
Conor Fowler: It's not like your pants.
Renato Pagnani: Yes, it's not along racial lines so much.
Conor Fowler: Exactly.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. um So it was like a very old school
Conor Fowler: Which is kind of interesting.
Renato Pagnani: For sure, it's very old school in its mentality, but um as a part of their recent renegotiation of their collective bargaining agreement, because there's a union of players in the NHL, which is great, um that was one of the yeah that's one of the points that they had really wanted to to get, and and they did.
Conor Fowler: which is also yeah
Renato Pagnani: So as of the start of the season, you know now they're allowed to, they're only the only sort of guidelines is they they must address
Renato Pagnani: appropriately for contemporary fashion norms, which doesn't mean anything really.
Conor Fowler: yeah that's pretty funny appropriate for contemporary fashion norms i'm writing this down
matt: that's that's the biggest word salad i've heard in a while uh
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Yeah. we
Renato Pagnani: Right. Which, if you think about it, kind of include suits because suits aren't exactly like contrary and like, well, I mean, they are, they always are, but, but you know, the suit, there's always articles that come out like, oh, has the suit died?
Conor Fowler: right
Renato Pagnani: And of course the answer is no. But like for a lot of people, the only times they're wearing suits are to weddings and funerals, right? Yeah.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: once or twice a year once or twice a year there's a big there's a big post on reddit about this like how often are you wearing your suits and it's like almost every single person said once once a year
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Exactly. So it's kind of funny. to me um And of course, although the NHL has now relaxed its dress code, the majority of the players are still wearing the same suits that they have for the past decade or and and well, forever, really, with with the exception of now they're just not wearing their ties, which so which, like, of course,
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: doesn't look great either because like the shirts they have are meant for ties. So they're not like a nice button down collar that stands up right and frames the face, but like they just undo, they just take their tie off.
Renato Pagnani: so it was like droopy underneath their um blazer lapels and it just kind of looks messy or like, you know, they were at a wedding too long um and still on their tie.
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: But you know, there's a contingent of maybe, maybe 5-8% of players who have embraced the new relaxed dress code and the article was was about like, okay, for the players who are trying something different and aren't still wearing the same suits with or without ties, what are they wearing? And um some of them are going way to the other end of the spectrum and literally just wearing like jeans and t-shirts, which...
Renato Pagnani: is fine if you're like you bumming around the house. um and some are And some are actually trying and making some cool outfits. And I got to speak to Mikhail Sergachev, who is the alternate captain of the Utah Mammoth, who has been one of the best dressed players this season. And it was really cool to get a chance to talk to him and and about his love of of clothing and how he puts together his outfits and how the, you know, what the relaxed dress code has has meant for him and expressing himself. And then I got to talk to his stylist in Russia.
Renato Pagnani: um and then I filled it out with some some context from Derek Guy, aka um the menswear guy from Twitter for anybody. you and and Although anybody listening to this podcast probably knows who Dye Workwear is.
Renato Pagnani: um And I'm just really happy because for anybody who who has written before, like you know that like you can come up with an idea and you always have like ah an optimal version of it in your head.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Renato Pagnani: It often doesn't happen because you can't get into contact with the right people or even if you do, um the timelines don't work so like you know you you have deadlines and sometimes it doesn't work out that you can talk to the people you want to talk to to make the piece the best it can be.
Renato Pagnani: but um This one worked out. It was one of the pieces that, like, I reached out to the team, um the Mammoth, to to see if somebody would talk to me from them. And literally, they got back to me 10 minutes later, which is amazing and very uncommon for a professional sports team. with And they got me somebody to talk to, like, two days later. And it just, everything fell into place. I'm happy with how the piece turned out. And and hopefully,
Renato Pagnani: there's more to come in GQ.
Conor Fowler: Thank
matt: Hell yeah.
matt: Are there any other like hockey players that that have cool style that you can think of off the top of your head?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, absolutely. um so William Nylander is a forward for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He's he's a Swedish kid. and when I say kid, he's not really a kid. I think he's like 27, 28 now. um But he's got he's got a really cool style and um sort of like an elevated sort of... um streetwear vibe but he wears lately a lot of like loewe um so he'll wear like ah a loewe sort of relaxed um corduroy suit with a tank top underneath and like a ten thousand dollar tiffany silver necklace um um because that's nothing to him but he actually does have like quite cool style and and to put it into context um
matt: God damn, damn.
Renato Pagnani: a lot of fans have been like, and not just because of Nylander style, but like there ah there has been some like, oh, I wish they went back to wearing suits because they don't understand like what they're going for. Somebody like Nylander who I can't confirm has a stylist, um but I'm guessing he's had some help at some point.
Renato Pagnani: But I think he,
Conor Fowler: How many people have stylists? I like kind of didn't expect, ah and but I guess it's like, it's money, right?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, I would say for like professional outfits, they don't have the time to source a lot of these things too, right? So i think it's just a sort of a convenience thing, right? Like some of them, um I think Nylander puts together a lot of his own outfits and just enjoys fashion, but some don't have the time nor the desire to like you know learn about these things and then also like source these clothes, especially because if you're on the road half of the year, like what are you going Right? Like, I guess you'd have more options of of shops to visit um on your travels, but you know, I think having somebody help you and take care of that side, just take something off of your plate.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: For sure. Yeah. I just like, I don't know. I mean, what is the, what is the financial threshold to have a stylist? Like Obama, Obama probably had stylists, but they like did not talk about it.
Renato Pagnani: Well, I mean,
Renato Pagnani: No, absolutely. I mean, the minimum salary in the NHL is hovering about a million dollars. So these guys can these guys can afford
Conor Fowler: Yeah. So they're up there. Right. Right.
matt: ah What are, ah so let's let's talk about trends of 2025. The good, the bad, the quarter zip, the ugly. those two Those two might be synonymous.
matt: But yeah, what ah what did you see that you liked and didn't like of last year?
Renato Pagnani: um Well, you kind of pointed out one of them and i that was one of the, well, the only one I added in terms of the trends into the Google spreadsheet. But I think recently, you know, there's been a lot of talk about this whole quarter zip movement, um which I have found fascinating because aesthetically, ah don't really like them.
Renato Pagnani: i
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Lots of people do. um i don't think they're for me. I have like... a quarter zip fleece like um and in certain incarnations i think they can be really fun but like we're talking about like the are they even wool the the kind of quarter zips we're talking about here
Conor Fowler: No, I think they're like fleece, right?
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: well these ones i would say aren't these ones are like the kinds that um
matt: Yeah, they're like Marino or something.
Renato Pagnani: Merino wool, yeah. Merino wool, they're very fine merino wool. um They're very, usually form-fitting, and it just strikes me as like what like finance pros wear.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: makes it even worse yeah it makes it even worse it makes it even worse that it is that way
matt: Yeah, yeah.
matt: It reminds me of a past life of working at an old school menswear shop. And like, you know, most of our customers were above the age of 55 and they wore ah Peter Millar quote unquote performance polo switch plastic and and quarter and Peter Millar quarter zips.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
matt: And like, I wanted to burn every single piece of those that we got in.
Conor Fowler: I just don't see the point exactly. Like, so it's in competition.
matt: I mean, I guess if you're um layering,
Conor Fowler: It's what's in competition with like a cardigan is in competition with a crew neck or a neck.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: And like everything that I just said is far and away better in every metric.
matt: Yeah, yeah. Even though I i do personally hate a V-neck as well, but...
Conor Fowler: V-necks are fine. V-necks have their place. I would say, do I wear a V-neck? Not anymore, but like I have had V-necks like in purple.
Renato Pagnani: Mm-hmm.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: ah they work if you're layering them, you know? but I think the point of the super fine, as you said, quarter zip is sort of to show off, you know?
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: and that's like, it's a weird thing to be showing off, right?
matt: Yeah, it truly is.
Conor Fowler: It's like, you're kind of like, kind of like this part of your body, maybe, but they just are odd. And especially when they're unzipped, they look terrible.
Conor Fowler: Like you're like a blossoming flower, but made of flesh.
matt: I'm glad glad we're all on the same page with that one, but.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, I agree with Connor. Like, I'm not sure of their utility, right? Like you said, there are other options that are superior and I agree. And then, and then, yeah, so yours, they're also difficult to like, not difficult because they're no different than like a crude X sweater or anything, but like you don't have the benefits of a full zip where you can easily take them off without like messing up your hair or whatever.
Renato Pagnani: Right.
matt: Right, right.
Renato Pagnani: the kids who are wearing them, and this is like a trend that has been spearheaded by by kids. and And to be specific, like black kids. So I think there is an interesting element there that you know, i don't know if i can speak on very, very well, but um they are wearing them unzipped and, you know, with like a shirt and tie which also seems weird to me because again, you're pairing like formal pieces, formal items with a less formal piece.
Conor Fowler: but still kind of formal, fine, right?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. I don't know. And it's just... It's not for me. like i would... There are other things that I would wear. But at the same time, I do think it's nuanced. Like, these kids are...
Renato Pagnani: wearing them and taking ah more of an interest in classic menswear items, which I think is cool too. And a lot of these kids have, or people are, the pipeline it seems has been like from like Nike tech fleece to quarter zips.
matt: Yeah, totally.
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: And there's nothing wrong with, um you know, Nike tech fleece. I mean, um
Conor Fowler: But I think isn't the point of the quarter zip thing that there is something wrong with Nike tech fleece and wearing a quarter zip is superior to that.
Renato Pagnani: Yes, to some of these people, there' is there's also respectability politics at play there, for sure.
Conor Fowler: so I feel like,
Renato Pagnani: um
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: But my my point is, what you wear actually shouldn't influence somebody's um value opinion about you, right? Like, i don't like you shouldn't judge somebody based on what they dress.
Conor Fowler: but it's snow does.
Renato Pagnani: But with for a certain type of person... um they do associate perhaps that with a certain type of behavior for better or worse. um I mean, for worse, because I don't think again, Nike tech fleece is like worn by like, that's like their best selling item.
Renato Pagnani: It's like, everybody wears that. So like, you know, um just because it also has happened to be worn by like black youth doesn't mean, you know, it's only associated with crime. Like that's ridiculous.
matt: Right, right.
Renato Pagnani: Right. um
Conor Fowler: Well, but I think it's like we're wearing we're wearing the quarter zip, not a baggy T-shirt. You know, i feel like it's like, I don't like that.
Renato Pagnani: That, for sure, that's, yeah.
Conor Fowler: I feel like on its face, I don't like that.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, well, I do think like a good casual outfit is better than a bad formal outfit, right?
Conor Fowler: for sure.
matt: Agreed, agreed.
Conor Fowler: That's fucking, yeah, absolutely.
Renato Pagnani: And like, I don't think that a a shirt and a tie and a quarter zip is in most cases better than baggy shirt and jeans. I don't. um But if it's getting people interested in mid-man and maybe eventually opens their eyes pieces that are not quarter-sips, then i don't think it's fully a bad thing.
Conor Fowler: it's like the quarter zip, the storied, that storied garment of men's tailoring. Like, it's weird. It's not there at all.
matt: Yeah, I will say, like and you said it a couple minutes ago, but like if it if people you know getting into that gets them started into actually better clothing and like trying to look they're you know trying to look cool and nice, like i'm I'm fine with it.
matt: It's just, yeah. it's kind of It just came out of left field to me.
Conor Fowler: you.
Renato Pagnani: But it's the quarters up is an incredibly boring piece.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Renato Pagnani: like Like that's what we're like losing our shit over. Like, ah come on, we can do better than that.
matt: Yeah, yeah. there's The shaggy dog sweater exists.
Renato Pagnani: For sure.
Conor Fowler: I thought that the subtext of it was what people were objecting to, or at least that's what I wanted them to be objecting to.
Renato Pagnani: um
Conor Fowler: Like this bizarre punching down against ah class coded articles of clothing.
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, that's part of it for sure. right Like I said, um and that's another can of worms too. Like the aesthetics is aside.
Conor Fowler: Right. That's like a dress code at a club.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, for sure. um i don't know. it's it's There is nuance there.
Conor Fowler: For sure.
Renato Pagnani: um but And I'm speaking mostly from an aesthetic point of view, which is just like, I think we can do better. like you know ah
Conor Fowler: um sure
Renato Pagnani: i saw People obviously have been you know talking about this because it's a a hot topic, but you know, they're like, oh, well you can just use them as a layering piece, like underneath blaer and then over top of ah of a button down shirt. And I'm like, yeah, you could, but like, why? Right? It's like, um and if if I'm going to go more casual, like, again, I have, there are other options going to use. Like, don't,
Renato Pagnani: If it's a chunky fleece, quarter zip, sure. With an interesting material or texture or color or pattern, I could fuck with it.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: But the kinds of quarter zips they're wearing, especially, are, again, it's the fine merino wool that's like black or gray or navy. And it's like, don't have time
Conor Fowler: This, yeah. It's like the sliders are wrong. It's like you're making this garment, right? And one of the sliders is casual to formal. One of them is like fine to rough.
Conor Fowler: And so you can have different combinations of things and they work well together some of the time. But in this case, it's kind of a zero.
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. And I also think the other part of this is like, it is sort of the natural pendulum swinging again from, you know, we had a decade where true where reign supreme, no pun intended.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Renato Pagnani: um, um And now it's kind of coming back somewhat to to tailoring and classic menswear, and um which I think is great.
Renato Pagnani: And um i'm I'm all for that. like Hopefully we learned lessons from hashtag menswear 1.0 and we'll come back wiser and more comfortable this time around.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Renato Pagnani: But, ah you know, it's part of it's part of it. The kids are now like trying to want something. we we know this one. Something becomes ubiquitous and reaches, you know, mass appeal. People start to, you know, rebel against it. Right. So now, like, OK, well, now going wear this, not that.
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: um So some of it is just sort of like, you know, kids trying to be in ah unique. And then, of course, they end up all looking the same as is it invariably happens.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: Totally. Well, what's some good shit you saw this year that you enjoyed?
Conor Fowler: you
Renato Pagnani: ah Well, I'm wearing one, but I think, you know, we've seen a a real sort of resurgence of rugby shirts. um This is a nice long sleeve one, actually from Old Navy um that i that I picked up.
Renato Pagnani: To be honest, this year, I've probably spent and acquired the least um number of of new items of clothing, like in my life, um maybe more than
Conor Fowler: That's that is a laudable.
Renato Pagnani: it is It is, and also just like what sort of happens when you have a kid. You're kind of just spending money on them.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: Right, right.
Renato Pagnani: And I feel guilty about spending you know X on ah on a a shirt. It's like, well, you know I could be buying something to improve her life. um So I've taken more of a watching perspective.
Conor Fowler: Damn.
Renato Pagnani: like I've been more of a viewer than a participant in a lot of things. but um And and i've had I have had rugby polos for for a long time. I have one from Noah. not not Sorry, not Noah. um and know why i said no, um Palace.
Renato Pagnani: um That's a riff on like some of the British rugby's, classic like classic british rugies with like a ah rose on the chest.
Renato Pagnani: But they've, of course, put on their, put their own Palace spin on it.
Conor Fowler: you.
Renato Pagnani: And I've had that for a few few years and love it. But, um you know, I think it's a, It's one of those pieces that's casual but can be dressed up in a way that I think succeeds where the quarters of doesn't. Works excellently as a layer piece. And, you know, I just like having a collar on a shirt that's still somewhat casual.
matt: Yeah, totally. Totally.
Conor Fowler: That's well, that's back to the sliders. Like that's cool, right?
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: That's like a good kind of a mule, kind of a donkey, right? It's like, it's ah it is not a fine shirt, but it still has a collar and maybe even it has rubber buttons.
Conor Fowler: So then it has a dynamic of functionality that is important.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, exactly. What have you guys seen this year that connected with you or maybe maybe didn't connect?
Conor Fowler: Hmm.
matt: Um, I, I, you know, I'm not a big coat person, but like, I've really enjoyed seeing people like embrace, you know, Val McCann's polo coats, that kind of thing.
Renato Pagnani: Yep.
matt: Like, you know, just because I think they're personally cool. Um, not my personal style, but like, you know, that's just some,
Conor Fowler: yeah it's Well, it's like the, I feel like the silhouette of the fishtail is kind of a big coat, right?
matt: Oh yeah, totally. Totally.
Conor Fowler: I mean, moment and that's like your ah signature.
matt: Yeah. Yeah. Like, Hey, Yeah, for sure. for sure But ah yeah, you know people embracing that like little bit more loose-fitting ah vibe too.
Conor Fowler: Definitely that.
matt: Not loose in a in a ah like bad way, but like the right amount of oh the right amount of like traditional fit.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I think that both of those and they kind of dovetail like those things are.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Yeah.
matt: Oh yeah, totally, totally.
Conor Fowler: i thought that.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I think the big coat thing is great. I think that that and the idea of like and people have been beating this drum forever, but like the idea of buying a nicer thing rather than buying like three shitty coats, like just buy one good one.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Um, and it feels like people are actually sticking to that.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Conor Fowler: And that's like what I've been hearing a lot of people saying like, well, this year I'm not gonna buy more than like five things. And I think that's fucking awesome. I mean, I'm gonna try really hard to do that. I like as, and as bad as anybody, maybe worse, uh, with just buying shit. Like I don't need anything. I really don't need anything. I found all that shit at that estate sale. And like, I probably don't ever need anything again.
Conor Fowler: ever, but you know, I'm going to try to hold myself accountable in some way.
Renato Pagnani: um I'm trying to streamline my wardrobe um just because i end up not wearing so much of it, right?
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Like, i don't have a crazy big wardrobe. I don't. um i mean, honestly, I've got, like, 10 Roma jerseys, which is more of a collector's thing.
Conor Fowler: That's a collection. That's a collection.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, yeah, exactly. um But I just mean, like, that takes up a certain, you know...
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: percentage of my of my wardrobe and they have a few orders jerseys whatnot and whatnot um and and that that I don't really count as part of my wardrobe proper right you know that's just like a a nice collection on the side but I've been trying to streamline my wardrobe I've been trying to to buy better, right, buy less.
Renato Pagnani: um And I do think that you talked about, Matt, like the big coats, you know, that is a few trends sort of converging. Obviously, the last few years, you know, um looser drapey or silhouettes and and and oversized stuff have, um you know, that kind of fit has has become the big trend.
Renato Pagnani: and And I love to see that, you know, as somebody who's almost 40.
matt: Totally.
Renato Pagnani: And we all went through, again, menswear 1.0 where, you know, we We were told that the only proper fit is incredibly slim pants and short jackets, etc.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: I wonder if we could pinpoint that. Like, I feel like there must have been like two or three people saying that and it just went like, and Tom Brown too, i mean,
matt: I mean, it it it was the J.Crew liquor stores.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Let's go.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
matt: 2008, I think, was when they launched those initially. Yeah, tom I mean, Tom Brown, obviously, but like Tom Brown is not you know is not someone that that like most people would know.
matt: But J.Crew having these things in malls or whatever, like I feel like really really just lit the spark.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: It was when J.Crew also debuted, I think specifically the Ludlao suit, right?
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Which was, it must have been in that timeframe. It looks like it was, when was it debuted?
Renato Pagnani: I'm trying to Google it, but by it was there 2028, sorry, It was,
Conor Fowler: It sounds right.
Renato Pagnani: um It was released. But also, that is ah the time that Mad Men was on the air and people met, right?
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Renato Pagnani: All those 60s suits were more fitting. I don't think they were as fitted as... some people you know made them out to be, um especially the dance.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: But you know those things, um and again, the backlash towards the previous more relaxed, fitting era you know kind of converged on that.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: power suit type 80s kind of thing. And I guess it is sort of a, react it's always a reaction, right
Renato Pagnani: It was reaction to what what comes before. But what I was trying to get at is I love i love big coats. Like, you know, huge silhouettes I think are are so cool. um And um so not only has that been kind of, you know, cresting, but also, you know, you've had Giorgio Armani and and classic Armani has kind of been, um and if you know, you know, sort of trend for some people, so for some enthusiasts, like who are going back and buying vintage Armani, like in early nineties Armani, and you can get like a great wool overcoat on eBay for like less than 200 bucks, right?
matt: Totally.
Renato Pagnani: Like that's going to be vastly superior in quality to anything you can buy new now, even even at five times the price point.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: um So, this resurgence of like that era of Armani, which was very loose and drapey, right? Like those suits were incredible, um combined with the general trend of, you know, big coats and whatnot. um Yeah, I think it's really cool. And it's something that I've embraced. I bought a double breasted wool coat new, unfortunately, from Abercrombie, which has just returned to Edmonton as ah as a brick and mortar store.
Renato Pagnani: um a few weeks ago, m because I didn't have a coat, like and it's a long coat, which it almost comes it comes down to like...
Conor Fowler: isn't it like Isn't it like in the negative degrees there often?
Renato Pagnani: Oh, um at Christmas, I think it was like minus 25 Celsius here.
Conor Fowler: So why don't you have, what do you mean you don't have a coat?
matt: Oh, it's
Conor Fowler: ah
Renato Pagnani: Well, have like ah plenty of winter appropriate coats. Like I have a North Face Snepsy, right, which will keep me warm and other...
Conor Fowler: I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Renato Pagnani: um wool coats, but like nothing that really fit this bill. And I wanted something that was like, I have this old J. Crew double breasted, wool coat that but it's a lot more formal structured sort of it's also too small for me now because I'm almost 40 I'm not as slim as I used to be um and I wanted something that was longer as well little bit looser and flowier and like was big enough that like you know and if I did add um add more weight would still fit right and I think for me that's been the biggest impetus in like
Renato Pagnani: dressing a little with clothes with clothes that that aren't quite so tight is like, I don't wanna buy a whole new wardrobe, like if i get if i gain five or 10 pounds.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Right.
Renato Pagnani: And like that's a normal fluctuation of people sometimes. But like, and and I watched my wife Bailey go through this.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Renato Pagnani: She had a baby, so and Obviously none of her clothes fit once she had the baby and she had to buy like almost a second whole new wardrobe in that time after well during pregnancy and after pregnancy um and now she's you know lost a lot of the weight because that's what happens. So now she has all this clothes that that also don't fit her and I'm like man that sucks.
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Especially for someone who she's very much like me and like clothes And fashion is her is her passion. So when you wake up one day and none of your clothes fit you that you've spent, and she's she's really great at like curating clothes like from vintage stores and online.
Renato Pagnani: She's a great vintage hunter. um Especially when that stuff doesn't fit you, like that feels awful.
Conor Fowler: It's terrible.
matt: Totally.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, it's fucking terrible. And there's almost, not i mean, there's like, based in in that case, there's like nothing you can do about it. I think that um
Conor Fowler: the idea of
Conor Fowler: allowances, I guess, like buying stuff with sort of seam allowances is is a wise move. in the In the vein of buying the second pair of trousers with your suit, I mean, it's like shit is going to happen.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: LBJ would always say that he would go up and down 20 pounds in two weeks.
matt: Holy shit.
Renato Pagnani: Sure.
Conor Fowler: And that's why, so when he was ordering pants, put this on, has that video of him ordering pants and like, he would order a different sizes because he would just be like, whatever, uh, which I think is amazing from Hager Hager pant co.
Renato Pagnani: Rick.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, there a good quote from Rihanna who says that she's and Bailey always mentions it, um but Rihanna says that she has the um privilege of of a body that fluctuates, um which is a very positive way of looking at it.
Renato Pagnani: So she has a wide variety of sizes for when she's in just a different era, but she can afford it as a billionaire.
Conor Fowler: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, as a billionaire, she could have like she could have an entire closet of different shit.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yes.
Conor Fowler: And I know that they do.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Like Kanye, I'm sure. i mean, RIP new shoes every day.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: And that's like, that's like an inconceivable amount of waste.
Renato Pagnani: Oh, it not...
matt: Yeah. It would also be, wouldn't it be fucking overwhelming, like, to have that that many options?
Conor Fowler: They don't complain about it, I'm sure.
matt: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. But, you know, for for us regulars, I feel like...
Conor Fowler: lay people. Well, it's like I have option paralysis on my dumb ass secondhand wardrobe.
matt: Right, right.
Conor Fowler: Like I can't fucking decide anything. So I can only imagine like, ah but I guess then that's why you have a stylist. Right.
matt: Yeah, true, true, true.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
matt: Uh...
Renato Pagnani: What about you, Connor? Any trends that hit the mark for you?
Conor Fowler: Well, um, I'm pleased that things are going my way once more, uh, Andrew Smith, Williamsburg Library, not look so out of place wearing a jacket like i'm starting Grad school in 19 days and i'm of course getting where a jacket, thank you, but it's social work social work.
Renato Pagnani: Congrats. What are you taking before you continue?
Conor Fowler: Andrew Williamsburg Regional Library, Therapy I guess we'll see which one of those i'm more adept at um.
Renato Pagnani: Thanks.
Renato Pagnani: Sure.
Conor Fowler: But yeah, I mean, I'm happy to see tailoring ah kind of in the spotlight. Like, it seems like that's what everyone or maybe it's what I'm surrounding myself by.
Renato Pagnani: All right.
Conor Fowler: um But it seems like and I've talked about this on the show before, like ah my family was always giving me shit about rolling my ah trouser leg, pant legs up. Right. And then the venerated New York Times wrote a piece about ah that very trend. And so they shut up, which is like stupid. Right. But it's like once more the pendulum swings, I guess.
Renato Pagnani: So explain explain that a little further though. Are you talking about just like ah having your trousers like a cuff built into them or?
Conor Fowler: rolling them, like pin rolling them. Uh, this is like 2008 and it's fucking dying like 98 degrees and 100% humidity.
Renato Pagnani: Okay.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: So like my pant legs are rolled up and I'm short anyway. So my stuff is cuffed, uh, sometimes just out of necessity.
Renato Pagnani: Fair enough.
Conor Fowler: But otherwise, I mean, the core zip thing is ah as a negative thing. ah i don't know. I haven't really seen anything that I find objectionable. I've been pretty pleased with, ah I don't know. I mean, I see people in the Discord ah for WeeJons. I see people in the Discord for style and direction.
Conor Fowler: and it seems like people are doing great. It seems like people are happy and like really are expressing themselves the way that they want to in an authentic way. And I think that's like the best that you could hope for in this, in this economy.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
matt: Yeah.
matt: It's also...
Renato Pagnani: um um Go ahead, Matt.
matt: Oh, was going to say, it's also encouraging. like a lot of you know a lot of the friends that we have made through the show, like they're um they're also starting to embrace you know military stuff and vintage and like can't camo and stuff like that.
Renato Pagnani: Hmm.
matt: So it's... I don't know.
Conor Fowler: It's kind of cute, actually.
matt: don't
Conor Fowler: It's like...
matt: Yeah, I'd like to see that on the you know on the upswing as far as people digging it because it's you know it's always been cool. It'll always be cool.
Conor Fowler: It seems way more supportive and collaborative. And we've talked about this on the show, like... in 2008, it was pretty dogy dog eat dog. Like, it was like people were not super duper helping each other and they were relatively venomous.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Right.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: And now it seems like people are people are climbing over one another to help people. And I think that's I think that's great.
matt: 100%. Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, to but to put a bow on sort of the trends talk, I do think that like we didn't see anything brand new really emerge right in 2025.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: I think it was more continuation of existing trends. um But also, you know, we do live in in somewhat of a post trend world where like there's nothing that's like completely monolithic, right?
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
Renato Pagnani: That's that everybody's wearing. But there are various sub trends and trends of different styles and different aesthetic scenes um right um but yeah nothing really new emerged but again it's like you you've had the the looser beggier fits um that have kind of become sort of the the default of continue and we've heard whispers and like our skinny jeans returning and let me tell you they won't be returning on this guy
Conor Fowler: God, already. Right.
matt: ah Same, same.
Conor Fowler: and hey Right.
Renato Pagnani: yeah
Conor Fowler: I don't think I have ever put a pair on. i put a pair of my girlfriends on and she got pissed at me. But other than that, I don't think I ever wore them.
Renato Pagnani: but Well, no judgment. What you guys do behind closed doors is is totally cool.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Right. Right. Well, she was pissed because were the same size. I mean, she was mad.
Renato Pagnani: I'm awesome. And you can And you can share the clothes.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: She was mad because it was like, they look good on you too.
Renato Pagnani: I wish.
Conor Fowler: I mean, but I don't know. I didn't do, I didn't have the pilgrimage to like limited to or wherever to buy the girl, girl pants. It was just like everyone in my high school was doing Delia's, what have you, whatever mall brand.
matt: Gap. Gap was my go-to.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, i never I never wore actual like skinny jeans because I couldn't. um Even when I was a teenager, um and from playing soccer, i just had you know i had muscular upper legs, so like they they wouldn't fit. like you needed to be You needed to be so skinny, honestly, for it to look good. um that It precluded me from from joining the trend.
Renato Pagnani: um i I had strength pants.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, yeah. I was never going to fit into the type of things.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, but I never, um and and you know, that that, like wearing girls' jeans was also more of like part of the like emo scene then and I wasn't really part of that, right?
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
Renato Pagnani: Like that kind of alternative scene that I wasn't a part of anyway. um because Because that's where I think, you know, you saw the most, usage of that. But, you know, I am glad that yeah it it it will return. You know, our kids, my kids will probably look at me and laugh that I'm wearing less fitted stuff. But I don't care because I will be comfortable.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Conor Fowler: Well, like the big, I think the biggest influence on the skinny jeans thing was Wayne, right? Like Lil Wayne wearing skinny jeans. I feel like everyone or like a lot of rappers were like making fun of him. And then they were like, it was like every rapper was wearing them.
matt: Yeah, I feel like he's the one that brought it into into the mainstream. Because, you know, Heidi Slimane had been, you know, doing the...
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Oh, no, I'm not saying it was him. is he It's his idea. I'm saying to popularize it in the mainstream for a broader audience to make people think, like, this is cool.
matt: Oh, yeah.
matt: Yeah, totally. Totally. and um
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: And honestly, like, you know, going into the parts of the rural South that I go to, like, it's, they're still mainstream. Like, you know, yeah every single person that I walk by, like kid, adult, you know, under, the under a certain age is like wearing the tightest fitting jeans possible.
Renato Pagnani: sure yeah
matt: So it's kind of interesting
Conor Fowler: Because the like, because the like trip pants, I feel like that's like a fashion move now.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Like the Jinko jeans are like, that's like a trendy that's like someone who lives in New York somewhere.
matt: Yeah, sadly.
matt: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of the younger kids that are like getting into clothing are gravitating toward that kind of shit. and As someone that wore JNCOs back in the 90s, I'm just kind of like, guys, come on.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, those JNCOs are a little too baggy for me personally. And I think, you know, of course.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Thank
matt: I think some people can look cool. It's just, one you know, it's kind of like ah on the women's side of things, like the Y2K, like super low rise flares, et cetera, that kind of thing.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
matt: Like me and my friends talk about it all the time. And we're like, I really want to tell these these people that it didn't look good then, even though we thought it did. And it still doesn't look good.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Well, you were kind of getting at something, Matt, talking about, you know, going to these rural towns, you know, and in the South um where it it feels like now what is associated politically has also flipped.
Renato Pagnani: Right. Whereas like.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Late 2000s, you know, it was like the slim stuff or for the for the gay liberals.
matt: right right
Conor Fowler: yeah
Renato Pagnani: And now it's, you know, you've got J.D. Vance and all these guys wearing slim slim suits, right? um that It's really conservative now, like in or associated with Republicans.
matt: right yeah yeah i think i want to say derek has written about this like
Renato Pagnani: um And it's the the looser stuff has now become more of like what's associated with the left, which I find fascinating.
Conor Fowler: Well, it's, it's yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's the circle again. Like it's the bizarre, like
Conor Fowler: trajectory of trends. Like they don't really make sense. We can't really predict them and they do like dominate.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I mean, it just kind of is what it is.
Renato Pagnani: For sure. And the irony, I think here being like, you know, a lot of these people um who are like, we need to return to classic, you know, traditional masculinity um are dressing in a way that 10, 15 years ago, they would have criticized for being the opposite of that.
Conor Fowler: Right, right.
matt: Yeah. Yeah. hundred percent.
Conor Fowler: do you remember Milo Yonanopoulos?
matt: Oh yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Unfortunately.
Conor Fowler: um Yeah, so I feel like he, when we're looking back at this, we will see him, of course, like, he's a weird kid fucker, but like, he was doing stuff on the right wing that we are talking about now, right? Like, he was out.
Conor Fowler: He was wearing slim stuff. Like, he was like kind of a Hollywood character. um And all of that is gone now.
matt: right
Conor Fowler: Like, mercifully, he is gone, but that notion inside of the right is completely gone. Like, there's no room for that anymore. It's just ah this kind of monolith, right? I mean, they have created a monolith.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, it's ah it's it's fascinating.
matt: well to i guess start to wrap up um Do you guys want to do our our annual top records of the year?
Renato Pagnani: Absolutely. You guys kick it off.
Conor Fowler: I had a hard time. I had a hard time this year.
matt: did Yeah. I mean, i I've listened to a fuckload of new records this year. It's been a really good year for music, but it was really really hard to narrow down like what my faves were.
matt: But yeah, Renato, you want to start?
Renato Pagnani: Sure.
Conor Fowler: Thank
Renato Pagnani: So music is one of the things that I'm pretty OCD about. Like in a previous life, I was a music critic.
Renato Pagnani: And also I've just always been a ah big passionate fan about, a big passionate music fan. So I tend to keep a... Hold on one second, guys. I'm just going to pause my... ah Yeah, yeah.
Renato Pagnani: We good, Dave? Yeah, sorry. It's okay. What? You have to edit that. I'm sorry. um It's all good. We're um we're almost done here. Yeah. um we We don't have a time limit, but um Bailey forgot I was recording. um
Conor Fowler: You're good, man.
Renato Pagnani: Every year I will start.
Conor Fowler: it adds it's adding It adds to the texture of our program. I mean, it's like you're a real person.
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: We're talking about real stuff.
Renato Pagnani: yeah
Conor Fowler: People can deal with the 30 seconds of like, yeah, know our child. Is our child okay? Yeah, the child is okay.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. I'm pretty sure is still sleeping. She is, she's up now.
Conor Fowler: Fuck yeah. That's awesome.
Renato Pagnani: Cause I can see because the monitor we have in her room is on wifi. So like I have an app that I can like look at it. Um, if I'm out of the house or, you or just in the basement working. Um, but her, her natural schedule is like, she goes to bed at midnight and wakes up at noon.
Renato Pagnani: Um,
matt: Oh shit.
Renato Pagnani: because most babies are like little infants, toddlers will sleep about like 12 to 13 hours a night.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Renato Pagnani: um But most parents end up training their kids to go to bed at seven or eight.
matt: Right.
Renato Pagnani: And then then they wake up seven or eight or six in the morning. And I would blow my brains out if that happened.
matt: Same. ah say
Renato Pagnani: Because Bailey and i are both people who like to sleep in. um And for us, her natural sleep pattern just works for us, right? good we can sleep in in the morning. And then if we want to, we can wake up at nine and work out or just make a pot of coffee and and relax, catch up on things, you know, do some things around the house. But, but, and for other people, you know, it works for them that their kid wakes up at six or seven in the morning because the, you it's It's all trade-offs, right? Like either they go to bed at 7 and 8 and then you have a few hours before bed to yourself um or you have those few hours in the morning to yourself, um which for us is spent sleeping for the majority of the time. But that's the choice we make. I would rather sleep in And also, like, I like hanging out with my daughter. So um even though she's up until midnight, which then we probably just go to sleep after, I'm cool with that because um I enjoy her company.
Renato Pagnani: um But sorry, as I was saying, um i love music. It's been harder to keep up with it now that I have a kid just because I'm busy.
Conor Fowler: Wow.
Renato Pagnani: And the time I would listen to music the most has always been when I work and I work on a computer all day. um So I usually have time to listen, but I've started to, and I don't know why, but like have video podcasts and video shows on one of my monitors because I, I,
Renato Pagnani: I have two monitors. I just bought a third monitor actually, which arrives tomorrow, which I'm excited about, but I will have three monitors. Um, so I can just go video on one of them and have that on in the background while I work, um, which has replaced listening to music, which I'm trying to change because a lot of it's just like fucking stupid shit I'm watching.
Conor Fowler: Well. Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: But I always keep a spreadsheet every year that lists the albums I've listened to. The album was from that year. So like if I'm going back and listening to The National or whatever, like, you know, or something like, you know, MF Doom from 1999,
matt: Right, right.
Renato Pagnani: I'm not recording that in the spreadsheet, but I keep a list of like everything I've listened to from that year just to help me keep track of what I've listened to. And also, again, I always enjoy coming up with lists of like, these are my top five, top 10 favorite albums and songs of the year. and Um, I've, I've hit like 300 albums, uh, before, you know, when I was younger and didn't have a child.
Renato Pagnani: Um, but this year I listened to 75 new albums, which I still think is not bad. That's like one a new album every three days, basically, maybe every four days.
matt: No, no, that's solid.
Renato Pagnani: Um, and yeah, um, I mean, again, I, I sit on computer eight hours a day at minimum.
Conor Fowler: which is pretty impressive already.
Renato Pagnani: So like, I have no excuse,
Conor Fowler: move
Renato Pagnani: But I would say after looking through this list before the call, my five favorite albums of the year were probably favorite album. And I think I said, think I probably said um this last year, probably was about artist, but I think my favorite album was Man's Best Friend by Sabrina Carpenter.
Renato Pagnani: I'm a big Sabrina Carpenter fan. I think she's making some of the best, smartest and funniest pop music out today.
Conor Fowler: That's definitely true.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, and and and this record is another record that's not going to change anybody's opinion about her. if If they dislike her, they will probably continue to dislike her, but it's kind of more of what she's been doing. But I just think it's a great collection of of fun pop music. She also has, um and it's relevant, a Christmas EP called Fruitcake.
Renato Pagnani: It's actually a fantastic Christmas EP. So it just being Christmas, I think i like we, you know, My wife's also a big fan. We crush that EP multiple times a day for 30 days straight. um But I love that. I love that album. um Earl Sweatshirts, Live, Laugh, Love is the only rap album on this list for me.
Renato Pagnani: That is the genre probably I've i'm the least um ah kept up with the least in the last year or two, which sucks because like that was my... most listened to genre historically, like since I was 12 years old. But I really liked that record. it felt like the record where he's really kind of embraced his like status as like a spiritual successor to Doom in a lot of ways.
Renato Pagnani: um Non sequiturs, very short, very short songs, um but a lot of heart there. um
Conor Fowler: ah sketch The sketches I think are like not annoying.
Renato Pagnani: lot of... Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Like the old, the old guy, like, right.
Renato Pagnani: good Add to the project rather than detract. I thought the production was really good. Some of his best production yet. um
Conor Fowler: For sure.
Renato Pagnani: um And I liked the One Oh Tricks Point Never album from this year. Tranquilizer. i haven't seen... I've been off for two weeks, I've had two weeks off, um a little over two weeks for vacation, and my one of the goals was going to watch Marty Supreme, the new Josh Safdie, built with Timothée Chalamet.
Conor Fowler: Thank
Renato Pagnani: And One Otrecht's Point Never does the score for that movie, and apparently is incredible. um but I haven't gone to a C yet. Maybe, maybe I'll see it. I got four days left before I got to go back to work. So maybe, um, maybe I'll go see it, but the tranquilizers, another great record from, from OPN.
Renato Pagnani: Um, and then to finish out my, my top five for me, I would include Dan's boogie from, from destroyer Canadian, Canadian troubadour, um, indie, indie artist, um, who is part of the new photographers here and there.
Conor Fowler: One more.
matt: Oh, sick. Okay.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Um, and dan but Dan's Boogie again another record of kind of what he does well um will not convince anybody um to be a fan but um if you're already one you will find satisfying and then and then fifth would be this record by um a producer duo named Cassian um and the record is Channels and it's very much like a a record of like summer sort of like dance music like almost summer like house um i really like it it's just um it has a nice tempo it's nice to work to but also great to to when we were in mexico we went to mexico in march i had that record already had come out and played that record on a little um portable speaker and it's just kind of great to vibe by the beach with um so so that's kind of my my top favorite ah my favorite favorite records of the year i also liked um
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Nice.
Renato Pagnani: the Larry June and 2 Chainz album produced by the Alchemist.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Renato Pagnani: Life is beautiful.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Renato Pagnani: it was good. um i liked, there was an EP by Sophia Cortesis, who is a, i think she's Chilean. This is, she's ah an electronic producer who made some of my favorite music. No, she's from Peru. um Apologies to Sophia.
Renato Pagnani: But her EP, Vulvar, was excellent. And I also kind of like the Addison Rae record. It's a good pop record as well.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
Renato Pagnani: um So I, oh, and then DJ Koza was one of my favorite artists, put out a good album, Music Can Hear Us. um He's known for his like collage approach to to electronic music. um And there were a lot of cool collaborations on that record. um But that's sort of where my musical tastes took me this year. How about you two?
matt: Which one of us is going first, Connor?
Conor Fowler: I can go. um
matt: Okay.
Conor Fowler: So, yeah I mean, I basically listened to hip hop. ah This was a decent year, I thought. I mean, on the super long-awaited Clips album came out, and I thought it was fine. I mean, I would be surprised if people were still listening to it now.
Renato Pagnani: I agree with you.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: not to Not to jump in and provide my two cents of about this record, but that record was fine.
Conor Fowler: no no that's the point of the show yeah yeah
Renato Pagnani: It's fine. I don't the beats are are as good as old Pharrell. He misses. i do think he misses Chad Hugo. you know It's not the same without him. I mean, i think Pharrell...
Renato Pagnani: produced the last two Clips albums mostly by himself anyway, but but the beats weren't as good. Somebody described it as Louis Vuitton music for like the Louis Vuitton shows. That's the kind of beats he's making now, and I think that's funny and pretty accurate. And the rapping is good, but like you know i don't think it's as inspired as their old stuff. and you know um That's my opinion on that.
Conor Fowler: there was like some stuff that like about their father dying and like, you know, i think that that's like sort of touching material, but like they didn't exactly hammer it home, I guess.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I don't know. I mean, it's, it's impossible. I think for an album that people have been waiting for a decade to be good. Like, I don't think that there's an example of that. Um, like Chinese democracy, you know what I mean?
Conor Fowler: It's like, I'm just, we've been waiting for the album for a decade.
matt: Ha ha ha.
Conor Fowler: And when it comes out, it just is a piece of shit too many cooks, something.
Renato Pagnani: Speaking of albums that people have been awaiting for decades, um Nas and DJ Premier finally released a collaborative album two weeks ago, like on December 12th.
Conor Fowler: Right.
Renato Pagnani: I haven't listened to it, actually, because I forgot it actually came out.
Conor Fowler: No, I can't listen to Nas anymore.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, that's fair.
Conor Fowler: ah
Renato Pagnani: is I get that. um But like ah we've been hip hop has been waiting for this collaboration literally since...
Conor Fowler: Well, the Big L album, right? They did all of those albums. They did they had six albums or so something lined up, right? Including that one, the Big L album, the...
Conor Fowler: Who else? Mobb Deep album, right?
Renato Pagnani: Right? Yeah.
Conor Fowler: And then a few other ones, I think like a couple of Nas albums, but Nas is always saying weird shit about like, who is, who is a black person and who is not, and I, who is not.
Conor Fowler: And that's like kind of odd. I don't, I don't really care for that. Like Somalians are not black, like, uh, it's kind of weird.
Renato Pagnani: yeah yeah and then of course there's all the stuff with khalese but um my my point was that
Conor Fowler: Right.
Renato Pagnani: That album, that collaboration has been awaited even longer who to the point where only people in their 40s and 50s care about it. um And I haven't even listened to it yet.
Renato Pagnani: And i and um to be fair, I never really loved the stuff that Nas was doing with Hit Boy.
Conor Fowler: yeah
Renato Pagnani: I think they've made like four or five albums together, but his production style just always seemed really... tinny and cheap to me um and I just didn't like it but I mean and and of course DJ Premier is not the DJ Premier of even 2003 but I'm gonna have to put it on some point because I was gonna ask if you had heard it in terms of like collaborations that have been waited for for literally 30 years yeah did you listen to that
Conor Fowler: Well, the big L one too, know, I did. Yeah. And it's like some of the weird, like,
Conor Fowler: You can kind of tell, right? Like you can tell that it's chopped up and I don't want to be this person because like, it's all like this, but like the F slur does not land as well in 2026.
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: right
Conor Fowler: like and he's still rapping that same shit i mean i get it like he's dead but like there had to been some editorial control of the album like maybe we shouldn't use homophobic slurs maybe we shouldn't use make this man this dead man use a homophobic slur in his music
Renato Pagnani: yeah you can just cut that line yeah
matt: Yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Right, exactly. Exactly. It would not have been hard at all. um So I don't know. I mean, I thought that that, you know, people who have been waiting for all of those albums forever. People were awaiting um Alfredo, which did come out, Alfredo 2, which was decent.
Conor Fowler: But again, it's just it's just it's a decent album, but it's like I'm not listening to it today.
Renato Pagnani: i liked yeah
Conor Fowler: I'm not going back to it. Like, it's not as bad as the Soul Soad separately that Freddie did. um Because he's one of the best rappers rapping easily.
Renato Pagnani: for sure i mean that's always how it works we know rick ross used to be a corrections officer
Conor Fowler: Even though his dad is a cop.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Right. And you can't fuck with him anymore either, even though he has like arguably one of the greatest rap personas and voices in history.
Renato Pagnani: Absolutely.
Conor Fowler: But officer Ricky ruined all that.
Conor Fowler: I mean, it's like 50 cent it like eviscerated him with that.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Well, actually to the extent that it even mattered because like no one cares.
Renato Pagnani: Well, yeah, people didn't care and they continued to listen to him. um But speaking of 50 Cent and eviscerating people, I mean, he produced that new Diddy documentary because he hates the man so much.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Right.
Conor Fowler: Right. ready
Renato Pagnani: had Have either of you two watched that?
matt: have.
Conor Fowler: No, I have.
Renato Pagnani: or plan on what happens.
matt: i have
Conor Fowler: And I don't plan on watching it because I feel like I read the depositions. Like I read some of the stuff and like extremely bad. Like he was never good.
Conor Fowler: His only thing ever I thought was his proximity to Biggie.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, I mean, it was for a long time. we need to I mean, I do think he had a good ear as a producer in terms of like picking old soul songs to basically wholesale music.
Renato Pagnani: flip into you know pop songs. um He was really one of the first to do that, right? like In terms of just like not even like sampling a small chunk of a song in a way that you might not recognize, but literally like, oh, no, we're just going to make a new song over this famous old song. um
Conor Fowler: Yeah,
Renato Pagnani: He was one of the first to do that. to and not you know Not to give him credit, or but you know probably does deserve some credit for that. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just like all of those like kind of like suffering porn.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: It's like everyone knows what is going on. Everyone knows what has happened. It's like watching. It's like watching or reading the Epstein shit. It's like how much more of this can we possibly endure without something happening?
Conor Fowler: And of course, Diddy is already petitioning to get out of jail. So like, and it's like, it's not, it's not super unlikely that he won't.
Conor Fowler: So yeah, I mean, I'm not watching it. I don't watch anything really though, because I find everything so disturbing. Like we were watching Begonia.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah,
Conor Fowler: And then Honey, don't. And I'm just like, these movies are so violent. There's no need for them to be this violent. The world is very violent. And i don't want to see like an old woman get her throat slit.
Conor Fowler: I don't think that there's any redi redeeming value to that artistic statement to that. I just think it's like google fucking gratuitous violence for no reason.
Renato Pagnani: yeah that's that's fair.
Conor Fowler: And that's me on that's me on my hippie soapbox, like my passive soapbox.
matt: Ha ha ha.
Conor Fowler: Because I'm listening to the fucking Vonnegut thing and like, Vonnegut went and was a prisoner of war and saw firebombing at a massive scale and took bodies and dumped them into mass graves. And he, who is so amazingly articulate and well-spoken, couldn't convince a single fucking person that war was bad.
Conor Fowler: So it's like, I don't know. What chance have I got?
Renato Pagnani: You sound really down on the possibility of art making a change in the world.
Conor Fowler: Well, did it, I mean, did Vonnegut's work make a change in the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan when he was at basically the height of his power and fame and influence? It goes on the Stewart show and goes and talks to Stephen Colbert like,
Conor Fowler: I don't know. I don't want to be down on it, but it's like the war the wheels of the war machine continue to turn.
Renato Pagnani: Yes, I don't think so. I think the answer was yes and no. Like the people, people who are going to enact these terrible campaigns, the majority of them will not be persuaded persuaded by art.
Renato Pagnani: But I think there are a lot of people who have and will be, right? like and And it's important to reach those people.
matt: I also think that you you, like, you know, saying that any kind of art is making a change is, like, it needs some context.
Renato Pagnani: yeah
matt: Because on a mass scale, maybe not. But if that changes, you know, shows more people that we need, you know, to stop the war machine.
matt: That we need more class solidarity. Like, even on a small scale, like, I think it's doing what it's supposed to do.
Renato Pagnani: Hmm.
matt: you know, like our fucking shithead president is not going to read a Vonnegut book and be like, oh shit, we shouldn't bomb Venezuela. But, you know, if they're like, kind of like the hippie moot and anti-war movement in Vietnam, like it, you can, you know, you can show just everyday people.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
matt: And that I think is a step in the right direction at least. And that's a, you know, that's a positive change.
Renato Pagnani: And I will say, I will add that I don't think that art needs to um create real change in order for it to be successful either, right? like could just be a reflection Art also is just a reflection of reality.
matt: Yeah, totally.
Renato Pagnani: um That can be really shitty.
matt: Yeah.
Renato Pagnani: um And if it fails to stop war, like i don't I don't think we can put that on its back necessarily. That's not its purpose necessarily.
matt: Right, right. it's ah It's a piece of a, you know, it's a piece. It's not the entire pie.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, I'm not going to push back on that, I guess. Like, I feel like that isn't my point, right? But maybe this maybe this year will be different.
matt: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Conor Fowler: Well, Matt.
matt: Okay. Uh, so things I didn't have on my bingo card is my top record of the year is a black metal album.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
Renato Pagnani: Okay.
matt: Uh, it's a band called agriculture. Um, and the record is the spiritual sound, but, uh, I saw them open for one of my favorite bands, this Japanese metal band, Boris, in October, and they blew me the fuck away.
matt: It's just like, it's ah a very passionate mixture of like black metal, shoegaze, like a little bit of like folk thrown in. i ah Even if you're not a metal fan, i feel like, you know, the music itself when good could really be
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
matt: up your alley, even if, you know, even if it's not your thing, it's a good record to listen to and you can feel the emotion. Um, my second record.
matt: So my favorite band of all time is Magnolia electric company. Um, and their singer, Jason Molina passed away in 2013.
Renato Pagnani: Thank
matt: Uh, but the remaining members and a collaborator and friend of his, uh, what will Johnson, um, recorded, uh,
matt: Magnolia Metro Company song that was never actually recorded in studio. And then they did two version or a version of ah one song from each songwriter on this record that they put out in 09, I believe.
matt: And I actually saw them in ah in December and it was it was like going to church.
Conor Fowler: Well, and that's a great review. I mean, I feel like that um for you especially is like going home.
matt: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a, yeah.
matt: Yeah, they they were incredible they were incredible. They played for three hours, and MJ Linderman joined them in the second set for like eight songs.
Conor Fowler: Thank
matt: It was so sick. um ah Catharsis No Hope is my... er Wait, now it's not No Hope. Why the fuck did I write that down?
matt: I thought I was prepared for this.
matt: ah hope ah Hope against hope. My bad. But ah a great fucking fiery hardcore punk ah record. And I think they just kind of dropped it out of nowhere.
matt: I don't think they put out put a record out in like over a decade.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
matt: um Pelican, Flickering Resonance. it's ah It's one of the most uplifting like post-metal, post-rock records I've ever heard. And I was, I was blown away by that. And then, ah Wednesday, um who, a band that MJ Linderman is actually in. And, uh, I can't remember the songwriter's name, but she's fantastic. And yeah, the, those five have been on repeat pretty much since they came out. So, um,
matt: Everyone should should definitely check it out. Wednesday's definitely on the more, like, ah kind of Americana, folky side, but she she's getting a little bit more aggressive with her songwriting, and I'm i'm here for it.
Renato Pagnani: OK.
matt: But yeah, that's that's my five.
Renato Pagnani: Well, definitely five records i haven't heard and will be putting onto my or into my queue. So thank you.
matt: Oh, nice! Yeah, yeah. I mean, Catharsis, you know, some of it, if you're not a fan of heavy music, you might not dig, but...
Renato Pagnani: Sure.
matt: Yeah, definitely worth a a shot. But yeah.
Conor Fowler: And we'll post these. Yeah.
matt: Yeah, yeah, we'll make a list and everything. But man, yeah, 2026, here we fucking come.
Conor Fowler: I don't know. I mean, I think it probably will be okay.
matt: Yeah, I don't know you know, yeah, well there's a lot of shit that we could talk about. But yeah, just 2025 and we were still alive, so There you go.
matt: All right. Well, Renato, dude, thank you for coming on. Thank you for being a friend of the show and always, you know, hanging out with us for an hour or two.
Renato Pagnani: Absolutely. thank Thank you guys for having me. um I love this tradition we've created and hope to continue it for many years going forward.
matt: Totally, totally. ah
Conor Fowler: um
matt: Well, shout out, you know, so everyone can follow you and and see what you're doing.
Renato Pagnani: Yeah, you can find me at Renovate on all platforms, Twitter. I refuse to call it the other thing.
matt: Yeah, yeah. It's still Twitter.
Renato Pagnani: Instagram, wherever. So R-E-N-N-A-V-A-T-E. And you can find my words in various magazines here and there, like ah Complex to Sharp Mechanical, and wherever I can convince an editor to let me write.
matt: Hopefully more good things coming this year.
Renato Pagnani: Hopefully more good things coming 2026.
matt: Hell yeah.
Conor Fowler: For sure.
matt: Well, everyone, thank you for listening. Happy New Year. um hope you know Hope it's going well. um We are ApocalypseDuds at ApocalypseDuds on Instagram, ApocalypseDuds at gmail.com.
matt: um I am Matt Smith at RebelsRogues.
Conor Fowler: And I am Connor flower at Connor flower.
matt: And we will see you next Wednesday.
Renato Pagnani: Bye.
