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Meeting Our Past and Future Selves (part 2) (with special guest Scott Hendrickson)
107 Plays7 months ago
In this very special part 2 episode, your pal James Avramenko and guest Scott Hendrickson continue their discussion on the nuanced landscape of friendship, forgiveness, and the courage to confront one's past. They candidly explore their journey of reconciliation, unpacking the impact of personal growth and the ebbs and flows that challenge even the strongest of bonds.
The episode unveils Scott's key strategies to cultivate more meaningful relationships, such as small acts of appreciation and creating spaces for open vulnerability. Engaging in a heartfelt discussion, James and Scott reflect on their own friendship's past tumultuous phases, touching upon the essential elements of mutual support and accountability that have fortified their rekindled connection.
Listeners are privy to the pair's raw and unfiltered exchange on the tightrope of respect and understanding in friendships, especially when coping with external influences like romantic relationships or conflicting viewpoints. They underscore the potent combination of love, gratitude, and honest communication as the pillars of a resilient friendship.
By delving into stories of second chances, James emphasizes the transformative power of forgiveness, both of others and of oneself, advocating for unlimited opportunities for personal redemption. Scott contributes his insights on cultivating a diverse community, reinforcing the importance of exposure to a wide array of perspectives to foster personal growth and improved mental well-being.
This episode provides practical perspectives on constructing a life rooted in empathetic connections and the individual's responsibility for self-improvement within the context of community support. As a powerful testament to the sometimes rocky road of rebuilding trust and intimacy, the dialogue between Scott and James serves as a beacon of hope for listeners faced with the challenge of mending fractured friendships.
To continue the conversation and explore more empowering content, follow "Friendless" on social media:
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Transcript
Introduction and Second Chances
00:00:08
Speaker
Well hey there sweet peas! Welcome back to Friendless! I'm your host James Avramenko and this week is part two of my interview with the one and only Scott Hendrickson. We pick up where we left off talking about who deserves second chances and how to give them, how to forgive yourself and your friends, and the importance of chosen family.
00:00:29
Speaker
This is probably one of the most emotional hours I have recorded in the history of this show, and I could not be prouder to share it with you. So lean back, get comfy, set your volume at a reasonable level, and enjoy part two of my interview with Scott Hendrickson here on Friendless.
Forgiveness and Behavioral Change
00:00:50
Speaker
All right. Um, yeah. So I was thinking about some different, you know, questions that I could ask you and one, one that's sort of felt relevant to us. And that I think is an important question that we're always asking around friendships and relationships is it. And so I'm just curious about your thoughts on this. What do you think about second chances and what do you think about forgiveness?
00:01:22
Speaker
You know, I oscillate in it. I think so much of it is context based. And at the same time too, I think I could probably count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of people I consider like permanently forever out of my life.
00:01:45
Speaker
Because I believe in forgiveness and I believe in grace You know and I believe in understanding and I think that it's really important that people be given More than second chances. I think they'd be given as many chances as they need, you know People don't learn at the same rate as you you know, you talked about it earlier about this idea of like friends
00:02:07
Speaker
People in general aren't where you are, you know I've started seeing I talked about this in a recent interview. I've started seeing friendships as like You're on your path, you know and you're just walking your path and every once in a while somebody's path Comes closer to yours and you're still not walking the same path. You're both on your own but you're walking, you know, the paths are closer, you know, and then sometimes it spins away and
00:02:35
Speaker
To me, I would accept anyone back into my life who has wronged me, who I've wronged.
00:02:48
Speaker
under the proviso that they demonstrate behavioral changes. I'm no longer interested in what people say. This is coming back to what I was talking about. I'm not interested in being told apologies.
00:03:06
Speaker
I'm interested in being shown apologies. Yeah, that's interesting.
Therapy and Learning from Mistakes
00:03:10
Speaker
You know, really recently, like in December, you know, I got, you know, what they, you know, I don't know if it's a clinical term. I don't know if it's what it is. But, you know, I see it on the Internet. You know, I got hovered, you know, by by my ex and.
00:03:23
Speaker
I was told all the things that I needed to hear and I was lured in and I got used and then I got discarded and I was blamed for it all, you know, and I was then vilified and, you know, this huge, really, really intense smear campaign came out of it, you know, and what's funny is that, like, I forgive them, you know, like, because it's not
00:03:52
Speaker
It's not worth hanging on to that. It's not beneficial for me to maintain the anger. I've felt that anger. I've sat with it and I continue to sit with it. Even just thinking about it now, I get angry. I think about the connections I lost because of it. I think about the lies that we're told about.
00:04:16
Speaker
And I get another wave of anger. And at the same time too, you know, I learned, right? And something through my therapy that I'm doing a lot of focus on is this idea of like, there's no such thing as a mistake. There's learning opportunities. You make a choice based on the information you have at that time. And you choose whatever it is you choose. And then the repercussions happen.
00:04:43
Speaker
When that scenario happens the next time, you now have new information to make a new choice. Say that word to happen again, I wouldn't rely on words anymore. That doesn't make this person a bad person.
00:05:02
Speaker
So much of their behavior is instinctual, right? So much of it is just, you know, their own coping mechanisms, their own processes, their own protective instincts for themselves. Very lucky. Are you getting the brand new or the innovative version? You're mostly getting the habitual instinctual version of someone.
00:05:23
Speaker
you can always leave room for that trailblazer, that innovator, that new version to show
Unconditional Love and Self-Forgiveness
00:05:31
Speaker
up. But it may not happen. That's just it. And what I've learned is to just stop waiting for it, right? Because that's what was keeping me in those cycles, was getting glimpses of who I thought they were and then who they really were being shown to me, right? Right. And so I'm not pursuing anymore.
00:05:52
Speaker
And at the same time, too, like if if actual behavioral changes were demonstrated and they had a desire to be in my life, like, yeah, of course I would forgive them. You know, yeah, I think the ship has sailed of, you know, romantic. But like, but like, but, you know, I don't think there's anyone on this earth who is beyond
00:06:14
Speaker
Unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness, you know, but they have to give that to themselves first. And that's where that's where conflict comes in, is that they're looking, you know, or myself, I'm looking for forgiveness from others before I forgiven myself, you know.
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's a really cornering question that I've asked sort of like, do you have a good heart? Are you going to hold on to things? You know, and that's not, and I think, I think there's maybe, it's like, I guess I know, right? Yeah. I think there's maybe something that you kind of slid past there and that's like, that they're different, right?
00:06:53
Speaker
Forgiveness and second chances are very different things. And it's a conversation that we have in my friend group. I have a friend, Trey, who really doesn't like apologies. His thing is like, okay, what would you do differently?
00:07:13
Speaker
you know, bingo. And this is, it's like, I don't want an apology. I want, I want a corrective action. Exactly. Right. And I think it's a really interesting concept, which I don't always agree with because it's fascinating where I can make a mistake or I can do something wrong and I can say, sorry,
00:07:38
Speaker
for it and I can be sorry, but then when the question comes up, well, what would you do differently? I don't have a particular answer, right? Where I can say like, well, given the information that I had and what had happened and, you know, like I
00:08:00
Speaker
I would do what I did again. And then it's like, okay, well then how can you be sorry for it? If you're going, if you say you would do the same thing again. And it's like, well, I don't, I don't want to perpetuate this behavior forever, but you know, other factors also need to change in order for me to, to show up to that situation differently.
The Nature of Forgiveness
00:08:25
Speaker
It doesn't mean like.
00:08:27
Speaker
You know, so I think sometimes we like expect a lot of people when it comes to that sort of thing. And I think it's important to like continue to improve. And if you are going to like.
00:08:38
Speaker
If you are going to forgive someone, one, I think you should. I think you should forgive everyone. I think that the funny thing is that forgiveness is something you give yourself. I was going to say the first person to forgive is always yourself, you know, like, like always. And if you haven't done, if you haven't forgiven yourself and like authentically forgiven, not like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. Like if you, if you haven't sat with it and genuinely let yourself off the hook first, there's no way to forgive someone else, you know,
00:09:08
Speaker
one they don't even really ever need to hear it is the reality of the situation is that anything that you're hanging on to is yours. It's yours to hang on to. It's yours to process. They're not processing it the same way. They may not even know that you're holding some grudge or that you haven't forgiven them. They may not even know that they are requiring forgiveness.
00:09:31
Speaker
You know, I think that that it's really important when when you're looking at people, you know, we talked about this earlier, it's everyone's first time through the shoot. So people are going to make some major blunders along the way. And and you are too. And as you continue to forgive yourself, you you're going to find the courage to try again. And I think that that's also super important.
Modern Boundaries and Relationship Dynamics
00:09:58
Speaker
It's the other the other aspect about second chances is It's a little trickier, right It's like I want them to have second chances, but maybe not with me. That's exactly it, right? Yeah Yeah, and that's what I mean by like, you know, I'll give I'll give anyone as many chances as they need but I'm not I'm not always gonna show up every time in the same way and
00:10:24
Speaker
And especially if it's someone who's done genuine damage, I'm not going to show up as engaged as I was the first time. And I'm not going to lean in as much as I did the first time.
00:10:39
Speaker
And it's, you know, every time is going to be harder and harder to convince me to lean back in. Right. Um, you know, I'll, I'll give them as much grace as they ended the last time, you know, and then if I see actual change, then maybe we'll talk. Well, that's a unique thing about like.
00:11:02
Speaker
this world where we're learning about what boundaries are, right? Which were not something that anyone had 40, 50 years ago. And now, kind of beginning with our generation, you're like trying to develop boundaries around what you find acceptable and where you need to protect yourself and then, you know,
00:11:22
Speaker
that changes the way that you're going to show up the next time and you hope that you can do it in a way where you're continuing to show up unarmored and authentic and that you you know you're not so beat up that you have to show up kind of
00:11:41
Speaker
resisting the experience. The reason that I asked the question, though, is not, you know, I noticed you kind of went towards one of your ex-relationships as thinking about, like, there's someone I'd have a real hard time giving a second chance to or not like this. But I brought it, I bring it up in the context of our own relationship because, you know,
00:12:03
Speaker
I think we've had a lot of second chances in our relationship. I think we've offered each other a lot of forgiveness. And I think that the net result of that is that this is probably the most mature
00:12:20
Speaker
a mutually beneficial version of our relationship that we've ever had. I agree. I agree. And I think, you know, forgiveness and second chances in the context of friendship is uniquely different than the context of any other type of relationship, almost any other type of relationship, because like if it happens with your, with your romantic partner,
00:12:47
Speaker
There's a lot of other stuff that's happening there that like makes a second chance a lot more challenging. I think one of the most unique and beautiful things about a friendship is that.
00:13:03
Speaker
you really can start anew. And that's not something that you can do in a relationship. You can say, babe, it's gonna be different this time, I'll go love you right. You could pretend, but unless you like or amnesic, it's gonna be very challenging to start a romantic relationship
Reviving Friendships and Trust Issues
00:13:27
Speaker
over again. You cannot start,
00:13:29
Speaker
a parent-child relationship over again. It does not give you that opportunity. I don't care how good you are at forgiving, that relationship never gets to start anew.
00:13:47
Speaker
your professional relationship at work, even. I would say, I wouldn't say never. I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any relationship that can't renew. It's just how hard do you want to work at it? Right? Because some, some are just going to take more effort than others. Right. And so it's like any, you know, um, funny enough, I got this from X. They would always say at work, you know, they would always say like any relationship is salvageable. How hard are you willing to work for it? You know,
00:14:16
Speaker
So, salvageable is different from new, right? So, this is the unique magic of a friendship.
00:14:27
Speaker
People will say this is a very common trope in friendship. I hadn't seen them for years, but it was like we'd never been apart for a day. We just picked right back up where we left off. I think I've said that in half my interviews. It's like that is a unique blessing of friendship is that you can do that. And I don't think that there are many other relationships where it works like that.
00:14:57
Speaker
You could get back together with your ex. You could forgive an abusive parent. But the relationship dynamic is almost forever altered. It's very hard to start anew. And I just think it's one of the most powerful things that make friendship unique, right, is that you can begin again.
00:15:26
Speaker
And it's easier, I suppose, to begin again than any other. I mean, I would push back on that because if we're looking at it from the context of our friendship, especially after the last break that we had a couple of years ago, I was really cautious and I was really, really held back when we reconnected.
00:15:49
Speaker
And I was watching you know because it because I knew I knew who you'd been I knew who I'd been I knew you know my perspective of what happened and And I knew how hurt I'd been right and so when we reconnected I was terrified, you know because I didn't yet have the evidence of who you were now and so I
00:16:17
Speaker
I was watching real close, you know, I just wasn't announcing it. Right. And so, you know, like.
00:16:32
Speaker
Especially coming from the context of this show and the exploration that I've been doing the last couple years, I see friendship as a much deeper intimacy than I think a lot of the conversation gives it.
00:16:48
Speaker
deeper and higher levels of intimacy involved, you know. I think it really might depend on like what kind of importance you put on like sexual intimacy versus like emotional intimacy or things like that, you know. But in rebuilding our friendship, I was really cautious and I was really mindful of it and I was watching behaviors more than anything, you know.
00:17:13
Speaker
because you would say stuff and I'd be like okay I agree with that I can get behind that but then like what are you gonna do next week you know and and slowly over the last two years you know I've seen the behavior that has changed and I've seen the way you've you you show up as a person versus what you say you're gonna do and and that's what's rebuilt the trust for me you know and that's what rebuilt the intimacy for me so
00:17:40
Speaker
So that's why I really do believe that like
00:17:44
Speaker
I think I hear what you're saying about the uniqueness of the ability to start over in friendship. In some capacity, it does feel easier to do just because of the very nature of it and the type of connection that comes out of friendship. At the same time, too, though, I think that it is just as much a mirror of any other type of relationship. I wouldn't differentiate it.
00:18:13
Speaker
Well, okay. Well, I mean, that's interesting, you know, and sort of what I, the way that I see it is obviously quite different. And when I think about what, you know, what allowed us to be friends and then further what kind of
00:18:36
Speaker
maybe put a challenge into that relationship to be friends was, had a lot to do with our partners. It had a lot to do with other people. It had a lot to do with other pressures. I was going to ask if you wanted to, how specific did you want to get? I'd be kind of curious about like your perspective on things, but I don't know. I'm deadly curious now because I feel like such a villain in your life in this where you're watching me because I was never watching you, you know, like,
00:19:04
Speaker
The way that it worked for me was, and I had to go scrolling to some six, seven year old message to kind of see what exactly had happened. I remember
00:19:21
Speaker
You know, I remember attention coming up. Um,
Personal Conflicts and Miscommunications
00:19:26
Speaker
I still really loved you. I still really liked being your friend, but there was something that had started to rise up. That was, I felt related to, you know, my, my harshness or, or sort of my approach, but I can remember like a moment when like, I just really wanted to continue, um,
00:19:47
Speaker
to show up for you. And I'm going to give you a few examples of what it felt like for me when our relationship started to slip away. The first thing that happened was I didn't get invited to your wedding. Or maybe I could go back. No, I want to kind of start around there. So I didn't get invited to your wedding.
00:20:16
Speaker
That's already not true. But at the beginning. Yeah. Well, there's there's context around this. Yeah, exactly. Because I subbed in. Oh, you're meaning about being in the wedding party. I mean, I mean, the wedding at all. No, what it was was you didn't invite my wife. You didn't invite my ex wife.
00:20:33
Speaker
Well, you were married yet, but sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm just trying to invite my fiance. Yeah. Yeah. My ex fiance. Yeah. My future ex wife. Sorry. I don't mean to immediately jump the defensive. No, no, but okay. Like, so semantics aside, like here's what I remember. Yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
I always loved you, you know, like in university and in the way that we would work together. And I remember we even had a blog together because, you know, you really inspired me as a writer and I wanted to challenge myself to keep up to your pace. I can do it, but we did write some beautiful stuff together. Twin cowards.
00:21:09
Speaker
Yeah. The twin cowards. Um, and, but then I remember that there was this, there was this friction that came out of this really unique interplay between people was that I had introduced you to your ex partner. Um,
00:21:29
Speaker
who then your own future ex-wife, this will be impossible for anyone to follow along to without like a family tree or something. But anyway, what ended up happening was there was friction between your ex-wife and the fact that I was such good friends with your last partner. Let's put it in that sort of simple terms. And that sort of started to
00:21:58
Speaker
asked you to decide between me and her over little things over micro things over things that we maybe didn't even notice at the time but I remember like I really wanted to celebrate you I remember I remember I completely hijacked your bachelor party because I just
00:22:18
Speaker
I didn't feel like it was you enough and I wanted to like I wanted to contribute but I felt like it was slipping away but I still felt like you know that you were one of my best friends even though like I could tell there was so much more sensitivity brewing between us that there was something going on in the background and I remember that bachelor party as being both like
00:22:43
Speaker
me showing you that like I really loved you and that I thought that I knew how to please you. But there were some comments that you made about like my aggression or some of my language and things where I could see that like there was something underneath all of this that was continuing to pull us apart. Um, then,
00:23:11
Speaker
Yeah, then you didn't invite my ex to the wedding or put me in the wedding party, which was fine, whatever. But then, you know, our, our good friend had his own slip up and, and then I got room and you did invite me. And like, what I would want to hope that you saw in that was like, I went from being hurt.
00:23:36
Speaker
to accepting it as soon as I could and being like, yeah, I will show up for you. I will do this thing for you. And what I didn't see at the time was that it was also really hard for you because of the conflict that you were having with, with your ex, right? Like the, I didn't get that. Like you were putting your neck out. I felt like you were fucking selling me short and I was disappointed. I was like,
00:24:01
Speaker
man I love this guy I like I keep wanting to show up for him but it's just something's not happening something's not working right and that it kind of like basically after your wedding was sort of the
00:24:17
Speaker
kind of the end of our friendship for that era, I suppose. And then I had tried, we tried to kind of stay in touch. I tried to invite you to my wedding. Um, you kept pushing it off. I was me and I was like, James, you need to come to this. You're my oldest best friend. Like, you know, both of us, it would mean so much. And
00:24:38
Speaker
You had you really took that poorly you really felt like I was bullying you into and I I I would have Like happened else and you into coming to my wedding and being my friend like if I could have bullied you I would have yeah, you know, I would have Wwe'd you and back into my life. I would have I would have done it but like this
00:25:02
Speaker
this like thing happened where you had to pick between love and this person and what you felt was right. And like, there was nothing I could say or do to change any of that. And I remember, you know, the last few messages that I wrote you, you responded to me incredibly hostile. And I was like, okay.
00:25:26
Speaker
I, I have done something. I can't, I can't put my finger on exactly what I did to hurt James, but I've done something where his guard is up. His guard is up against me and, and I'm pretty, you know, I just couldn't tell. I couldn't tell what had, what had happened. You know, I knew that I was like,
00:25:49
Speaker
Okay. I probably digging into things where he doesn't want me to dig or, or something has gone on. This is perpetual with friendships in my life. People slide away from me. Like maybe this is just the natural order of things, but I remember like, I really fought for it. And, um, and you didn't come to the wedding and it was kind of like the end of things. And then I remember I wrote you and I, and I was just like, you know,
00:26:20
Speaker
I love you. I'm rooting for you. Like my door's open. Not knowing what I had done wrong to be able to like ask for your forgiveness or anything like that, but just knowing that like this can't be the end for this relationship that like there's gotta be, this is, this season's gotta come back around at some point. Like I'm not,
00:26:50
Speaker
I'm not sure, but I wanted to make sure that the last thing I said to you was positive. That I wanted you to know that I still loved you and that I was still thinking positively about you. And I want actually everyone to know that. That if we haven't talked in years, whenever you come up in my mind, I think a good thought about you. I think that that's just the most important thing that you can do.
00:27:19
Speaker
for everyone, even if it means that I don't get to be a part of it. You know, cause I think that life is scary and beautiful and it deserves to be the best it can be. But that's sort of why I ask about second chances and why I ask about forgiveness is like when, when I came back to Canada and, and we were both at Ben's wedding, like I was, I was stoked to see you. And I was, there was like,
00:27:48
Speaker
rumor and like there was like whispering and like, oh, James is here. And like, Oh, you know, is that going to be okay? And whatever. And I was just like, yeah, it's fine by me. Like I'm very excited to see this guy again. So, you know, I feel like, I feel like I have, I've hurt you a lot of times. Like when I, when I think back upon
00:28:15
Speaker
I can't pinpoint and say it was this time I did this thing, but I know that you've had to be patient with me and you've had to determine... I don't know. It's always been a really interesting relationship to me because I just feel
00:28:43
Speaker
Like somehow I'm like a schoolyard bully in your life. That's how you felt a lot of the time. Like I just feel like that's sort of the persona that I have attached to this relationship. And it's like, I never wanted to pin you down. I always wanted to lift you up.
00:29:01
Speaker
I always saw a really incredible guy in you and it always made me incredibly sad that I didn't have the means to maintain your friendship.
00:29:17
Speaker
I knew that you had some serious grudges against me and I was just like, I don't even fucking know what I did. And what I'll say back is just I never had any grudges against you. I always just like...
00:29:33
Speaker
Even when things got weird, I was always, I always left my door open and space in my heart for you and I'm really excited to like, I think I remember once I wrote you, you blocked me on Instagram
00:29:49
Speaker
actually i can remember in the depth of this last loss i wrote you on friendless because your personal account was blocked and i just was like i feel like i'm the epitome of this friendless person and like if you want to like really end this friendship and
Manipulative Relationships and Autism
00:30:09
Speaker
like
00:30:09
Speaker
then we should talk about it. And I think I even like, I pitched coming on your podcast when we very much weren't friends. Just cause I wanted to talk to you. I don't know, that's a long ramble, but this is something I thought I've been thinking about for a really long time.
00:30:24
Speaker
Um, like, thank you. Um, thank you for being so honest and thank you for being really open about it because I really appreciate it. It really, you know, um, I've been thinking a lot about, I just talked about it on this month's wrap up episode about this idea of like reframing and, and, and not letting, uh, what you think happen inform what did happen.
00:30:47
Speaker
and trying to just really look at facts and delete the narrative that your brain instinctually makes and instead just look at what happened and hearing the perspective you had on things
00:31:05
Speaker
I really hate shifting the blame onto other people because it was me participating in this stuff. Yes, it was informed by my relationships and at the same time too, I chose to behave how I chose to behave. I'll just say the same thing.
00:31:26
Speaker
accountability is key and but you know no man is nylon there's so many things going on in your life and sometimes you you can be more accountable and it was like it was you know it yeah like
00:31:45
Speaker
It's like stirring up a bunch of stuff in me about like, yeah, just that relationship and that time in my life. And like, I was so fucking lost. I was so lost. And I was in a really, really bad relationship that I didn't even know how bad it was until it was over. And then I had the space to reflect and just see how fucking bad it really was and and how scared I was all the time and and how
00:32:14
Speaker
isolated i became because of it and and how much of my life i blew up in service of this relationship that then just destroyed me you know and um and it's hard to like
00:32:30
Speaker
it's hard to you know there's this part of me that wants to hold them accountable there's a part of me that wants to fucking shift the blame onto them and at the same time to you know because it's like it was it was abused I was abused for eight years you know like I was gaslighted I was manipulated and I was fucking psychologically torn down and at the same time to you know
00:32:49
Speaker
I participated, you know, and I made choices and I know that there's lots of talk of, you know, when you're in an abusive relationship, how you behave isn't, you know, isn't abuse, it's reactive and all these things, but it's like, it's hard not to feel responsible for it, you know, and I, you know,
00:33:09
Speaker
you were such an integral part of the bachelor party you made everything more fun you know most people didn't even want to be there you know like you were the one who was like fuck this James get married you know like you were ramping it up and it meant the world to me you know why
00:33:25
Speaker
I remember that I called a limo to the, I was like, there's no limo at a bachelor party. So a bachelor party without a limo, we booked the limo. And then I can't remember what we were planning on doing, but I looked up and there was some wrestling happening in Cloverdale.
00:33:42
Speaker
It was amazing. So we went to wrestling and I proceeded to bet with you on every fight, but you understood wrestling and I didn't. So I lost every single bet because you were like, no, he's the heel. No, this is what happens. You always go out on your back. All this stuff I didn't know and I kept losing bet after bet after bet. I was like, listen, I know it's scripted, but I know
00:34:04
Speaker
You haven't read the script, so how come I can't get one of these right? Because that's how it works, you know? And that's how good wrestling works, is that you know what's going to happen, but it's about how you're going to get there, right? You know, that's the most fun of it. You remember the match where they did the slow motion fight? Yeah. And they were like, watch this. And then he did the, like, dick flip. He, like, grabbed his dick and made a flip flip.
00:34:27
Speaker
It was fucking incredible. It was a really good moment. It was super fun. So much of what I took out on you was me transferring other pain that I was in.
00:34:45
Speaker
And I was holding you accountable for a pain that you were not responsible for. And I was projecting a lot of my insecurities and I was projecting a lot of my issues onto you.
00:35:06
Speaker
And that's not to erase everything because I do still hold on. I don't believe in tough love. I'm not somebody who responds well to bullying. Bullying shuts me down. And so sarcasm, I don't understand because I am autistic. And so I'm like, oh, you're just being mean to me. And even motivational, you're better than that. That just shuts me down.
00:35:32
Speaker
Um, but I also recognize that that is a part of who you are, you know, I just wasn't in a place then to be able to hear that because I was, I had so much else agonizing that I was like, I just need my friend, you know, I just need my friend to tell me that he loves me and that's enough, you know, and, and I wasn't getting that. And, and so I was like, Oh, I guess I, you know, from my side, I was like, well, we're two problems this way. I can't afford to fucking travel because I've just blown all the, you know, and so like,
00:36:00
Speaker
Well, and I didn't, I didn't know that you were in pain, right? Yeah. Is the other thing. So like maybe I would have been softer or changed my approach or certainly, you know, I've, I feel like I've matured a lot in the last five, six years to, I think you have to allow for more softness and more, you know, a different approach and, and I still am my kind of same old self, but I, but I, I try to bring more to the,
00:36:29
Speaker
I try to have more facets to my diamond than I used to, right? And so, the troubling thing was,
00:36:39
Speaker
You could blame me because I was a bit of an influence on your life and you followed me down a path of horrible marriage and divorce. Technically, I got married first, so I finally got one ahead. That didn't pan out very well for either of us.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah, you can offload the blame and you can talk about projection and you could talk about all these things. And I think in my heart, I just always knew like that we never had a breaking point, right? Like even when we were broken up, I was like, this isn't ours. Like this is something, something else is happening in the world. And like, it's really hard to choose. Courage. And that's like a big thing that I think about all my time, all the time in my life now is like,
Community and Personal Relationships
00:37:34
Speaker
It's always a good day to choose courage. It's the hardest thing to do is to get out of the things that are hurting you and remove yourself from victimhood, take accountability and have courage because I was like you, you know.
00:37:49
Speaker
I was, I was also very stuck in a thing where I didn't feel like I could be myself anymore. And I also chose my ex's friends over my own friends because I was under the impression that my own friends weren't good enough, you know, um, that I needed to, you know, that like, if I wanted
00:38:14
Speaker
to have a community, it was going to be my partner's community that my partner wasn't going to go full swing into my community. Like it just wasn't going to happen. And so, and rightly or wrongly, you know, I may never speak to her again to be able to ask those questions in the answer. I get maybe false anyway, where I just, you know, it's hard to know, but, and I think it's important that I take my own accountability in that as well. It's like,
00:38:39
Speaker
everything that you're talking about about projecting or about being in this challenge and like everyone can relate to this everyone who's had a partner has had a friend you're talking about friendship here you have a friend who gets into a romantic relationship that they should not be in and you're like you shouldn't do that but you can't live their life and they're not gonna listen to you anyway you know it's just like let's go back to the very beginning my dad got throat cancer and I was like
00:39:09
Speaker
Maybe that relationship you have with a cigarette's a bad relationship. And he was like, don't ask me to be a different person. Was it the words that he said to me? And that same thing is like when you're in a relationship and you're like, this person might not be the best person for you. They might not love you like I can love you. You know?
00:39:33
Speaker
And like, no one's ever in the history of the world received that message. Are we supposed to just, like, we've never kissed Scott. Like, are we supposed to just- We have kissed. Have we? On stage, I believe we have kissed on stage. Oh, that doesn't count. That doesn't count. I just think we were supposed to kiss 20 years ago and we missed our chance. I feel like we did kiss 20 years ago and I have a photo of it. Stage doesn't count. Talk about what doesn't count, you know?
00:39:59
Speaker
Um, I don't mean to hurry so long. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm no, we should, we should carry on to the next thing. I just, if, if I could conclude on that, I had one other thing I want to say, but you, I want you to, okay. So my, my conclusion for that whole question of second chances and forgiveness and
00:40:27
Speaker
I'm just grateful. I'm just grateful that like I have a heart that wants to open up again and that you do too. And that we were able to recapture a really important friendship, you know, that has history. You know, one thing I'm just going to tell you that is like,
00:40:46
Speaker
super important to me is, um, as time goes by, only certain people can really know you exactly because they can only certain people can know your history. Right. And when you weren't in my life and after I had gotten divorced.
00:41:10
Speaker
There was no one left in my life who knew my sister, who knew my father and who knew me and who knew me in the context of having those people and losing those people and not having those people. And, and like, and, and so I had lost a part of myself when I lost you because I lost the only person left who knew me that way. Right. And so.
00:41:35
Speaker
I almost couldn't relate to it anymore because I didn't have a lens for anyone to see that. And like, that's not fair to my brother, but like in the context of friendship, those people, if you can hold onto those people.
00:41:52
Speaker
They can really, they can help you out of the darkest times and they can see you for the brightest star when you're not even burning. And that just means the world. And so I'm really grateful to have, you know, someone who's known me since I was in ignorant.
00:42:11
Speaker
little boy, you know? When you were in that truck driving commercial. That's right. Dad! It's the very first thing we ever talked about. I was like, I saw you on TV. You were like, yeah, cool, thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I see. Not a lot of people know that about me. Yeah. So I'm going to have to find that link and add it somewhere. We're going to have to share that. It's there somewhere. It's incredible. Deep in the standard definition internet for 720p. It's incredible.
00:42:46
Speaker
I wanted to circle back to something because you were saying you were sort of, I don't know if you used the word confused, but you were wondering about my caution. And I think it's even in that moment, it was my realization that I was like, I was still projecting because I was not taking ownership of myself. And so I was still putting it on you of like, I have to be cautious around this person. And I've been hurt by this person, so I have to be careful.
00:43:13
Speaker
What it really boils down to was I was watching both of us. I was watching how I was showing up too, you know what I mean? And so, you know, but then we did have that, you know, you, you, you showed up, you said, hi, we hugged and we were chatting again, you know, and it was, it was an, it was an instant forgiveness because it was like, oh yeah, there you are. You know what I mean? Like, so it, it, it, all that tension and all that, all that
00:43:37
Speaker
built that stuff like yeah sure i mean i love that we're talking about this now and i and you know we we could talk about it at the same time too it's like it it felt like water on the bridge because i'm in the exact same boat of like i don't actually have anyone else in my life who you know who who has the same history and i'm always looking for those kinds of friends and it's like oh yeah i've fucking got it i just have to actually nurture this connection it's not it's it you know and that's something that really comes down to to our friendship and it's something that
00:44:07
Speaker
You know, I talk a lot about on the show and I explore a lot just in my own meditations is the thought of like you, you know, friendship isn't inherent, you know, like it's still in the same way that like love is a verb. So is friendship, you know, like you still have to work for it. You can't just like not do it and not show up and not communicate and then say, well, where are my friends? You know, right. And and
00:44:30
Speaker
and that's why so many of my connections have petered off because we both, you know, like one of us has tried, the other hasn't, or neither of us has tried, or whatever it might be, you know? And especially in our reconnection, I've seen you try, you know? And I'm doing my best, too, you know? Well, I think we're, I mean...
00:44:48
Speaker
You know divorce helps certain things help you get a little bit more perspective on your life really trauma bond. Yeah, you know well yeah, but you know one thing I just sort of thinking is is I was talking to you before the podcast started about how I'm
00:45:08
Speaker
And dealing with a lot of father-issue stuff right now where I always wanted my dad to be proud of me.
Friendship as Familial Support
00:45:17
Speaker
I never got that form of acknowledgement from him and it's always been really tough. And what this conversation has just sort of unlocked in me is I'm really proud of you. And I've got to watch you grow up.
00:45:31
Speaker
And I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of the person that you've become, the way that you continue to rise to the challenges of existence, the way that you always come back stronger, that you're even more artistic and autistic now that you've done so many beautiful things that I'm so proud of.
00:45:59
Speaker
and that's that's one of the powers of friendships is that we can we can we can replace all those little broken parts of the intimate parts of our lives that little things we missed that maybe we didn't get from a mother or a father or sibling you know friends can can do all of that for us and i have
00:46:19
Speaker
I get the opportunity to have known you your whole life and to say that like I'm proud to know you and I'm proud for you and what you've accomplished and I think that that's
00:46:35
Speaker
that's something we can all use a little bit more of right is like that's why having a community is special so that the people can watch you grow and if you're too hard on your friends or you too hard on yourself then you miss out on that and that's a really special that's a really special thing and I think anyone who
00:46:56
Speaker
who has a friend that they love and has got to see grow and that they get to fill that special place you know they say your friends are the family you get to choose or there's some trope like that but I think it's it all ties in and is relevant here
00:47:13
Speaker
oh fucks god i was not ready for this okay we're gonna thank you thank you uh... i'm gonna do i'm gonna go against every instinct which is to just like make a joke and brush it off and give it back to you and and i'm just gonna just say thank you because that meant a lot to me and
00:47:42
Speaker
Give me a second.
00:47:52
Speaker
Okay, it's like a tiny little beat. You circled onto this at the very end of your answer and I think, again, I'd like to just draw the spotlight to it just so I could hear a little bit more concise thought of this idea of community that we've talked about and this idea of friends are very much like the one-to-one and then the community is sort of
00:48:22
Speaker
expansion of that in a way, you know, and we do, we hear the word community banded around for any number of reasons and any number of contexts. And I'm curious, you know, internally for you, what exactly does community mean? And how do you sort of show up in community? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, and I think it means a couple of different things. Um, and it's like,
00:48:52
Speaker
It's like concentric rings in the tree, right? You know, at the center is yourself and your own foundation, and then there are the people who help you see yourself or help you be yourself, that immediate friend circle, you know, as it's called, where you've got people who are
00:49:14
Speaker
allowing you to drop your guard, be authentic, learn and grow. But then there's this like, you know, there are certain times in your life where it's really like amplified is like, then you got like, you know, the whole fine arts department or the whole theater program. There's a there's a wonderful sense of community where I am not able to say I am friends with everyone.
00:49:39
Speaker
But I can say that we are part of a mutual community, that there is a tie that binds there, right? And so that is a collective group of people who have a similar stroke of needs, desires, wants, outlooks that allow themselves to, you know, to really flourish as a group. So, you know,
00:50:06
Speaker
You're, you're interconnecting through mutual past times and other things. And that's like, so community can be really important in that it's, it's a looser structure, but it's enough structure to allow for the pursuit and exchange of the ideas and values that help you be yourself. Right. So it becomes a mirror of yourself, but.
00:50:35
Speaker
You know, it's a little bit more fun house. It's got variation to it. It's got variety to it. And that's the, so you've that next level of the structure is like, okay, I can express myself in my close circle of friends. And then this close circle of friends, we can express our.
00:50:57
Speaker
joint feeling of being alive or that mutual understanding of existence within our community that understands us and is willing to listen to us. And then from that community, we can feel supported enough to pursue and exchange our ideas with communities that don't reflect who we are. And I think that that's an important thing that I wish there was time to talk about is
00:51:21
Speaker
you know I lost a friend and she was like one of my best friends but it is at a certain point she told me like your opinions are all different than mine so I don't think we can be friends anymore right and I was like oh like I like I like you for who you are not for the things you think like I and like I'm okay with us having divergent opinions and
00:51:50
Speaker
And she wasn't and that basically ended the whole friendship is because we had some differing views and I would I would discourage that if people can can learn to.
00:52:04
Speaker
accept that people can be wonderful, even if they see the world differently than you. And if there's something objectively wrong with what they're thinking, then they might need a friend. They actually might need someone. And if I was wrong, and she could have held on and helped me see straight, or given me other examples, then if it was really, truly that wrong to her,
00:52:29
Speaker
We were friends and the only way I'm going to change is through a friend modeling, not through an enemy. Yeah. Through somebody showing me a different way. Right. Well, that's something I mean, I teach this and I apply it to my life a lot and because I learned it over the pandemic is this idea of, you know, when you when you meet somebody
00:52:50
Speaker
And, you know, to use the example that I learned it on, it's like, you know, you meet somebody on the political spectrum and they're way in the other route that then you want them to be right. You don't show up and shame them. You don't fight them because nobody, you know, that that's the way to get them to dig deeper. That's for them. That's the way for them to get rooted and combat and fight. Instead what you do is get curious and you talk to them.
00:53:15
Speaker
And the objective isn't to get them to go all the way from one to the other. The objective is just incrementally get them slightly further along and to allow them to experience it within themselves and allow them to come to whatever realization they need to for themselves and not try to browbeat them into compliance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:53:46
Speaker
What an idiot I would still be if I was holding on to all of the views of my youth. I need people to show me other ways of thinking. And that happens in real life. We forget sometimes because we think we have access to infinity through our little devices in our pocket, but they're so heavily filter bubbled.
00:54:12
Speaker
filter bubbled and algorithmically inclined that they actually are self perpetuating your biases. You know, they're designed to do it. And so how you break free from that is to actually be exposed to an unfiltered world. And that comes from people that doesn't come from algorithms, right? It comes from actually being in the presence of someone and that person
00:54:39
Speaker
being challenging you well and also being. Loosening their guard like they're vulnerable there if they feel safe and vulnerable and they're authentic and they're themselves you're going to see an unfiltered something which is more rare than ever to find even your own friends. From the group that you've cultivated that has all the same ideas they're constantly self filtering to be accepted into this group because now that's their
00:55:09
Speaker
that's their safety. So if you can find a variety of friends who have differing views from you, there's an immense amount of value to that. So if we go back to this concept of community, I think that there's
00:55:27
Speaker
You know, the value of community is that it's a filtering out from yourself to being able to have enough mirrors so that you have support, so that you have motivation, so that you have mentorship, so that you have available lessons learned so that you can see, you know,
Community's Emotional Benefits
00:55:51
Speaker
Mistakes and not make them that's a really important part of having a community too is to let other people fail So you don't have to make every single failure on your own which I encourage you not to do So there's that element of community, but then there's this like
00:56:08
Speaker
amazing thing that happens all the way down at the loose connection level, right? When you're sitting in a space that feels like home, okay? We're all just walking each other home. Go back to the RomDos concept. When you feel like you're walking home with people, when you feel like you've got that community around you where home is bigger than your own four walls,
00:56:36
Speaker
that down regulates anxiety, that helps with your dopamine regulation, that helps flood you with oxytocin, that gives you all of the great boosts of being in love in an anti-fragile format because it's a network love, so it has more resiliency and stability. And then right down at the end, I remember
00:57:03
Speaker
this moment when the world was open, life was flowing, I was living in a community that was
00:57:13
Speaker
filled with people who lived and worked in the community and the barista knew my order when I walked into the cafe in the morning and it was ready for me by the time I paid and when I would go to the pub after work the bartender knew my drink and she'd be pouring it when I and and like we weren't
00:57:37
Speaker
friends. I wasn't hanging out with them outside of this loose fabric that the society had created for these social encounters to happen. But when it was all working together from my individual sense of self to my close ring of friends to the greater community to just feeling like
00:58:06
Speaker
you know you're someone or that you know you're nobody but it's like it counts I don't know like that that's I'm trying to tie it all in into a nice bow but the reality is when I when I think about community that's how I think about it I think about it is this place that's big enough
00:58:28
Speaker
to explore, to share, to learn, but to feel at home outside of your own walls. That place where you can feel that sense of, you know, like I said, like down-regulated anxiety and emotional control and all that.
00:58:54
Speaker
You know, I think, I think I wanted to ask it as a personal question and I saw, I saw your, your question is like, how can someone be a better friend to you? And I know you're going to probably finish with that question, but it, it left me, it left me thinking a similar thing because I haven't always been a good friend to you. And I was very curious to know.
00:59:22
Speaker
like when did you feel if you ever have that I was showing up for you or that like what was a time can you point to a time that made you
00:59:38
Speaker
feel like that I was a friend or that you know because I we could talk all day about how I can improve but I'm just I'm just trying to think of like what if there was a moment you know that you can pinpoint where it did feel like
00:59:55
Speaker
I was showing up. Yeah. Well, there's a couple. There's a couple. I mean, we talked about the bachelor party. We can talk about some past ones, but also there's recent ones that come to mind. The way you showed up at my bachelor party was magic. The way you showed up at my wedding was magic. You got all the day of stuff handled in a way that I never could have.
01:00:18
Speaker
And, you know, I felt supported and I felt seen and I felt really validated just the way you were like, no, this is, you know.
01:00:28
Speaker
This is an important day. It has to feel important, you know? Which is one of the sources of my own shame and grief around not being able to give that back to you on your day, you know? And still carrying a lot of that myself, you know? Well, in the spirit of second chances and forgiveness.
01:00:49
Speaker
I may never wed again, but forgiveness is strong. But more recently, it's been just the last, over the last year, you've been away a lot of it, but we've always kept in touch when we needed to. And you've always been available when I've needed, and I've always tried to be available when you've needed. And when you're in town,
01:01:18
Speaker
um it's always been about like when we hang out we're really present and that means a lot to me you know and and you know just seeing where you are in life and what you're exploring and what's you know just what's happening for you and how open and honest you've been you know you're really modeling what you're talking about you're
Quality in Friendships
01:01:38
Speaker
modeling being
01:01:40
Speaker
curious and you're modeling being safe and you're modeling being present. And those are all qualities that I need in my life. You express yourself really openly and then you listen really openly. And those things really matter to me. Coming out of what I'm coming out of what I've been losing recently
01:02:07
Speaker
feeling so lost and just like out to sea you know and and all the connections that you know in many facets you know close friends of ours that I've that I am not connected to anymore you know let alone all the other world that I've lost you know like for you to have been as constant as you are and and
01:02:29
Speaker
which hasn't meant you're available every day, and that's not what's mattered. What's mattered is that you've shown up when you can, and that is exponentially more helpful for me than someone who will say they're available and then not be, or someone who just outright drops. Someone who shows up saying, I have capacity today, that means
01:02:54
Speaker
so much more to me. I talk about it on the show all the time about it's not about quantity, it's about quality, and it's about consistency. And if your consistency means only being able to talk once a month, that's still consistent.
01:03:11
Speaker
you know it's it's it's just it's if somebody overgives and then pulls away you know like that's the stuff that scares me you know because i listen to people i listen to what they say and i hear them and i believe them you know so if somebody tells me i love you and you're my friend and we're always going to be friends and then when i reach out to them and they're gone
01:03:32
Speaker
that fucking hurts you know and it's not only does it hurt it's scary right because then it's like well what else was a lie you know whereas you know you are you know you're not only do you express love and support but you also express what you're capable of which is exponentially more helpful for me you know right so that's that's the stuff that i really value and that's that's how i see you showing up and not only with me but that's how we see you showing up in the world and it's
01:04:01
Speaker
I you know you said earlier how proud you are of me and I've been thinking about like just how much that feeling is reciprocated and just how impressed I am by the life you're living you know and and and you know my internal narrative goes to these like well I'm not doing this and you are and I'm not doing this and you are you know like I used to think that about you all the time you know it used to be the hardest thing to have
01:04:30
Speaker
friends that were really talented and really emotionally aware and I used to just begrudge when you do something good because it looked like it was too easy and it was harder for me. We still did our thing and we worked off each other and it didn't.
01:04:51
Speaker
But it's always some it's something that I have Certainly reframed in a later part of my life again. It's like a scarcity versus abundance exactly right it's like well if James is writing a good script, and I can't write a good script if you know
01:05:07
Speaker
If James is making people laugh, I can't make people laugh, you know. But it's the thing, and this is what I've noticed in our, you know, in the last couple years, in our reconnection, is this idea that it's like, from my perspective, what I've been seeing is like, I have things to offer you and you have things to offer me. And, you know, we have overlap in some areas and then we have differences in other areas.
01:05:28
Speaker
And and it's those gaps that the friendship thrives in you know like it's you know what I know about that I give to you what you know about that you give to me you know how we can prop each other up in in the places that we you know I'm always hesitant to use words like lack and stuff because they bring such negative connotations but it's like you know
01:05:47
Speaker
You know it's it's those spaces that I value you most in that like you are capable of doing some things that I'm not and so I watch what you do and I try my best to emulate that you know and I and I try to reciprocate that you know and and I and I try to remove that competition and instead see it as like.
01:06:07
Speaker
there's just there's there's stuff you can do that I you know struggle with and there's stuff I can do that you struggle with and that's what being a friend is is is propping each other up in those moments of need you know
01:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for me, what I'm loving about this current iteration of our friendship is it's actually the most vulnerable version of our friendship. 100%. Where we're both better listeners and we're both, you know, I'm not gonna say every time we get together it's like a confessional, but
01:06:46
Speaker
We're at this point in our lives where there's no harm in just being honest about where we're at, what we're going through, what feelings we're going through. We've been through enough of the same shit and we've done it alone and we've, like you were saying,
01:07:04
Speaker
you kind of like project onto the other person when it when in fact like hey that's an ally that i'm pushing away right now you know and i i feel like that's been a positive change i've worked on being a better listener um naturally great speaker
01:07:26
Speaker
Lister needed a little bit more work and never needed to learn charisma You know when you were doing the character build you were just you know, whoever built you just maxed out the charisma Left left very little in height and ears Not an elf
01:07:50
Speaker
Uh, but it is something that, you know, I, I found has been a really like wonderful part about this, this friendship is like, I think, you know, and when you're younger and you're like trying to be a man, you gotta look strong, you know, and I think we're like both so happily broken at this point that we're like, you know, we're both like appreciate those same things. Yeah. This is our first time. We're just walking each other home.
01:08:19
Speaker
It's nice to be able to be honest, and that's right to the beginning of what I was saying. Authenticity, a place where you can be yourself and not be in your chameleon skin or wear one of your many masks or personas or however you want to look at it, but where you can just be yourself in whatever moment you're in.
01:08:43
Speaker
It's funny because I remember we met up for a little comedy show.
01:08:53
Speaker
I was burnt out, you were sober. It was like 90 minutes or something. We connected and I was like, all right, I'm at capacity. You're like, I'm at capacity going home too. And that was like probably not a place we could have gotten to before we would have expected more out of each other or would have felt some sort of like judgment over like
01:09:14
Speaker
Why are you being a dad? James doesn't want to hang out with me because I'm drinking and he's not or Scott doesn't want to hang out with me because I'm sober and you know like we would have come up with a narrative you know and like we talked a little bit about narratives and I think they're very
01:09:27
Speaker
They can be very dangerous because we can run away so quickly from the reality of a moment. You know, cause just because we didn't clear it with each other, you know, we can come up with our own scenario there, but you know, we were both like, yeah, this is what I have capacity for. And we were fine with that, you know? And I think that that's a great place to be. It's nice to have friends where you can just be like, cause that was always a problem with my relationships was like,
01:09:55
Speaker
When I didn't have full capacity, I was expected to. Yes, exactly. And that's a really nice thing about a friendship, is it's like, I got 20% today if you still want to hang out. Or when you don't, too, and you can call it off. You can just say, I don't have capacity, and that's good. That's another huge thing. I mean, it's funny. You keep on bringing up the rum dust. I made these little things. This is another rum dust thing.
01:10:24
Speaker
I can do nothing for you but work on myself and you can do nothing for me but work on yourself and that's it you know and and I really believe in that that it's like there's nothing I can expect from you the only thing I can give you is I'm just gonna keep on working with myself you know and and and hope that you do the same but that's up to you right
Interdependent Growth and Self-Improvement
01:10:45
Speaker
Yeah. But there's a little hidden magic right in that, which is, which is, and I a hundred percent agree. And we've, we've talked around this theme lots about what ultimately you're responsible for yourself and no one can change you. And you, you have to own your own life and existence and we can't project onto other people. We can't blame our exes or old partners or fathers or whoever, whoever feels like they deserve a handle had, you know, a decent amount of the blame for the situation.
01:11:14
Speaker
But the magic in that I can do nothing for you but work on myself, you can do nothing for me but work on yourself.
01:11:21
Speaker
is that is not homework. You know, that is not something you go off into the corner and do on your own. You do it in connection. You do it in connection with other people. And, and there is a light that you can bring to someone else's life. You know, my mom has this phrase that like just really, really sticks with me. Um, and she says like the problem with the world is that there's a love starvation. And so,
01:11:49
Speaker
If you have extra love to give, it can profoundly change someone's life.
01:11:55
Speaker
a simple compliment, a comment, a check-in, whatever. We're missing love. There's plenty of trauma. We got an excess of many, many things, but love is something that is infinitely abundant, but somehow in short supply. And so it's something that, when you talk about those phrases, I think the important part is, yeah, you have to do your own work.
01:12:25
Speaker
but man is life hard to do without someone next to you. Exactly. And so the more people you can be, you know, weaving your tapestry next to and then interweaving it together, creating that social fabric and that emotional fabric that can help, you know, lift you up. That's, that's a huge, huge bonus to have in this world. So, you know, that's why
01:12:53
Speaker
Yeah. Ramdas really just, he makes a lot of sense to me that we're both just walking each other home is the same thing. We're both going our own way. We're both going to our home. We both have our own path to go on, but we can do it together. Exactly. Yeah. Um, very last question, just the wrap up. Um, before we launch into it though, you know, I,
01:13:21
Speaker
I'm floored. I'm absolutely floored. I went into this expecting one thing and getting something so profoundly deeper and I'm just filled with
01:13:38
Speaker
like it's shutting me down like because it's like i'm having like autistic dysregulation over like just how overwhelmed with the emotions i'm i am and so i'm worried that i'm coming across sounding really monotone that means i'm feeling a lot of things um but i
01:13:59
Speaker
I just find myself feeling just flooded with love and love for you and gratitude for you and gratitude for this friendship and gratitude for just who you are. In recent weeks, I've been really exploring this idea that I'm actually really mindfully and actively pulling away from telling people I love them. I'm becoming much more mindful of who
01:14:24
Speaker
I use such a powerful word with and I'm trying to model outwardly something that has really hurt me inwardly, which is people being really careless with their love and expressing love to me and then not demonstrating it. And so I've been really mindfully pulling back from doing that.
01:14:52
Speaker
You are someone that I know I don't have to be cautious around that with. And so I just like from the bottom of my heart, I love you so goddamn much. And I'm just so grateful to be your friend. And I'm so grateful to have you. I love you too, James. I really appreciate you saying that. And it
01:15:11
Speaker
It's interesting what you say, you know, I have in the past been accused of love bombing, you know, getting my open heart up in everyone's face and saying sweet things and then there being attachment connected to it. And then, you know, I, I understand where you're coming from, you know, and I, and I'm, I'm not sure that, that, uh,
01:15:41
Speaker
If you can find a way to keep that heart open and keep sharing love with the world, I think it's really important. I think on the opposite for people who have hurts around abandonment and around love that
01:16:00
Speaker
We have to be cautious and not create those triggers back in them. But when it feels good, you should do it. You should do it when you can because it matters.
01:16:15
Speaker
I try to love every single person. It's kind of like a Dalai Lama puts George Bush Sr. on his altar and people are like, oh, what's this about? And he's like, you know, I love even my enemy or even the person who sees the most differently from me.
01:16:38
Speaker
can't all be Dalai Lama all the time but I think for me it's about it's about it's about expressing it right I think there's there's there's a way to feel it yeah and and but even that is still in a way a sort of a selfish act right because it's like I you know I'm gonna feel it from it for myself because it feels good to feel love but I'm not necessarily gonna say it to everyone because I'm not always gonna be able to act it
01:17:01
Speaker
you know and so um at least where i am right now and that's that's you know like that's just where i am because of what i'm coming out of and so it's like i'm just i'm burned you know what i mean and i'm healing and so i am cautious but that doesn't mean i always will be i'm not always going to be hurt you know yeah yeah and like love can be light as a feather love can be exactly love can be a smile right like love doesn't
01:17:23
Speaker
have to be a commitment to someone where then when they pull back it's oh you never love me or anything like that. I think there's many formats to it and at the base level it's like if you can just see someone and you can help them see themselves and if you can offer that level of love that's pretty special.
01:17:47
Speaker
The wrap-up question I always love to leave listeners on a actionable actionable step that they can try taking So what do you think is one thing? People could try doing to be a better friend this week whether it's to themselves or to their community This week as we as we head into spring, you know what I would recommend doing this week if you're
01:18:13
Speaker
If you're anywhere where flowers bloom, pick a flower and give it to a friend. That's gonna be my weekly recommendation. It's one of my favorite things to do. It doesn't cost you anything. Everyone loves flowers. That might be a good way to be a friend is just to give your friends flowers. You know, like I always say, tell them you love them. James says,
01:18:42
Speaker
Be cautious about it. Tell them you L-U-V them if you're not ready. Show your love. You know, show it. You know, other ways like people could be a good friend. You know, I think for me, you know, when I think about what I need from my friends is, um,
01:19:05
Speaker
If you've got capacity, send me a ping. Send that person you love even the simplest message and find a way to show appreciation.
01:19:22
Speaker
When I am low, I need it from people. I need to feel appreciated in this life. And, you know, I'm not saying, hey, do my trauma work for me or anything like that. But I am recommending that if you want to be a good friend this week, I think
01:19:44
Speaker
The smaller the gesture, the better. You know, I think to James's point, to your point about grand gestures and then failed follow up, it doesn't need to be grand. It can be super, super simple. But when you're, you know, when you're out there in the world, I think, you know, I have this, everything has to be so long winded with me, but I have this,
01:20:14
Speaker
I have this hockey chat group, you know, and, and it's a safe space. If someone's feeling depressed, someone's friend kills themselves or parent gets sick or whatever, like everything has happened to this group of people in this chat. It's a place where they can go and they can say, Hey, this is happening to me right now. And just have the rest of the team, the rest of the group say, Hey man, I feel you. I understand. I'm here for you if you need anything. And.
01:20:45
Speaker
You know, I haven't been particularly reached out to after a message like that, but even knowing that it's theirs is really special, so.
01:20:55
Speaker
If you've got capacity, put it out there. And if you need something, that's the other thing, you know, you can be a better friend by being vulnerable and asking for help. I think maybe, I think maybe that's missing from a lot of that. How do I be a better friend? How do I be stronger? How do I, you know, it's actually like asking for help, asking for help is actually telling someone you're having a hard time.
Vulnerability and Mutual Support
01:21:23
Speaker
Cause they'll probably be like, Oh shit. Oh, I must mean something to this person that they're coming to me in this moment. It's not always about being the stronger person, you know? And I think that that's important is people forget and people think, Oh, I always have to show up here or to be a good friend is to be the person who carries the load. But like one amazing way to be a good friend is to teach your friends.
01:21:53
Speaker
that you need help too.
01:22:13
Speaker
You know, it's one of the best ways that you've been a friend to me in this version of our friendship is you'll be like, this is where I'm low right now. And I'll be like, Hey, I can probably talk to you about that. I can probably, I can probably, and then, and then I feel so much more permission and safer to say, this is what I'm struggling with. You know, sometimes being the first person to open that layer of vulnerability,
01:22:42
Speaker
It can lift this huge weight off of both of you because you're gonna feel seen you're gonna feel connection You're not gonna feel so alone again, and then it's gonna help you Get ready for the next stick or stone that comes from being alive. I Mean there it is. That really is it III feel like I've hit I feel like I've hit brain mode because like I'm so like I
01:23:12
Speaker
You just yeah, I wish I knew how to like circle back to this because it's sending my brain into so many different directions of like who I feel like I want to reach out to and speak to and also who I hope would trust me and you know, like and just like you really encapsulated a lot of the questions that I've had for a really long time.
01:23:33
Speaker
And this is one of the things that I cherish about our friendship is that you have this uncanny ability to listen to me and then distill it back in the most powerful poetic way. And it really it never fails to just like, boggle my mind. So I'm just really grateful for that.
01:23:54
Speaker
Is there anywhere you would like listeners to find you? Do you have anything you want to plug? Do you want to stay mysterious or how do you want to play this? Funnily enough, I am definitely in the mysterious part of my life right now. I have no public offerings to give. All my stuff is fairly private right now.
01:24:21
Speaker
If you know me, you know, through James or you found this some other way, all I want to say is I'm sorry. I love you. Thank you. Please forgive me.
01:24:56
Speaker
And that's it. Thank you one more time to Scott for coming on the show. That was an absolute honor and just such a blast. I have just been crying, just editing this episode, re-listening to it. I guess I hope that in listening to this, maybe it'll inspire you
01:25:18
Speaker
to reach out to a friend of yours someone who maybe you haven't spoke to in a while or just someone who means a lot to you and maybe give them some kindness you know like Scott did because I have just been glowing ever since that interview and it meant the absolute world to me if you would like more friendless content you know what I'm gonna say sign up for the weekly sub stack you are gonna get
01:25:43
Speaker
Five recommendations for things to check out. These are going to be books, movies, music, comic books, articles from the internet, YouTube videos, all kinds of fun stuff. You're going to get a curated poem that I have enjoyed that week as well as a playlist that I build every month.
01:26:00
Speaker
I am in the process of revamping and remodeling the newsletter slightly. I'm hoping to be launching that in May. I also am going to be launching a subscription service. This is looking like it's going to be more like June, but I am still looking for feedback. I have ideas for courses. There's going to be a book club. There's going to be all kinds of Discord meetings, stuff like that. But
01:26:24
Speaker
If you have ideas for things that you think would fit within the sort of friendless realm that you would like to see in this service, please let me know. You can contact me on Instagram or TikTok at friendlesspod, or you can email me at friendlesspod at gmail.com. But that's it for me, so I'm gonna wrap this up this week. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you have a wonderful week, and I hope to catch you back here for the next episode. But I'm not gonna worry about that right now, and neither should you, because that is then, and this is now.
01:26:53
Speaker
So for now, I'll just say I love you, and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweeties.