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2.22_Women In Law with the Rutgers Law Alumnae Network Co-Chairs
60 Plays4 years ago
Alumnae Network Co-Chairs Maritza Rodriguez, RLAW'11; Debra Rosen, RLAW'86; Patti Santelle, RLAW'85; and Joy Tolliver, RLAW'07 sit down with Co-Dean Kim Mutcherson to discuss their path to law school, career trajectories, and what they hope the future of women in law will be.
Learn more about the Rutgers Law Alumnae Network!
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally-known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Series Producer and Editor: Kate Bianco
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Introduction
00:00:10
Speaker
Hi, my name is Kim Mettreson, co-dean of Rutgers Law School in Camden, and this is the power of attorney. So we are having one of our super episodes today. I have four amazing women who are graduates of Rutgers Law School, who I'm going to get a chance to talk to and get to know better during the conversation today. And I'm so grateful to all of them for participating in our conversation.
00:00:35
Speaker
So instead of me introducing each of them, I'm going to let them introduce themselves and then we'll get into some of the nitty gritty of our conversation today. So Maritza, do you want to start us off?
Maritza's Journey and Career
00:00:46
Speaker
Sure. My name is Maritza Rodriguez. I'm a graduate of Rutgers Law School, Newark. I graduated in 2011. I was an evening student.
00:00:56
Speaker
And I currently am a solo practitioner. I've been a solo practitioner actually since I graduated law school. I did a clerkship in family court and then made the big leap. It was a horrible year to try to find a job. And I, you know, took a leap of faith and I said, what's the worst that could happen? And here I am 10 years later.
00:01:18
Speaker
with tons of experience and good and bad. And I am also an adjunct professor for the law school teaching family law and how to start a solo practice so that you don't make the mistakes I made. And I also recently launched a coaching business where I coach young women and also primarily first-generation attorneys on how to start a solo practice.
00:01:46
Speaker
I love that. We will definitely be talking about the perils and pitfalls and excitement about a solo practice. So I will be coming back to you to talk about that.
00:01:54
Speaker
Deb, how about you go
Deborah's Career in Environmental Law
00:01:55
Speaker
next? Sure. Thanks, Kim. And I'm happy to be here today and talk with everybody. My name's Deborah Rosen. I am a 1986 graduate of Rutgers School of Law from Camden. I was a summer associate with my firm Archer and Griner in 1985 during law school and have been there ever since. So it's 35 years, I think, at this point. I do primarily environmental litigation and also some more transactional work
00:02:23
Speaker
I am on our board of directors and also the head of our diversity committee and our women's network as well. I enjoy the firm practice and hope to be there. Well, I don't want to jinx myself for the rest of my career. Excellent. Thanks, Deb. Joy, how about you introduce yourself next?
Joy's Career Transition and Current Role
00:02:40
Speaker
Hi, Kimberly. Thank you so much for the invitation to be here today. It's such an honor to be a part of this conversation. My name is Joy Toliver.
00:02:48
Speaker
and I am a graduate of Rutgers Law School, the class of 2007. After law school graduation, I went on to become a law clerk.
00:02:58
Speaker
And I then went on to become a prosecutor, an assistant prosecutor, and I handled all domestic violence cases. When I left the prosecutor's office, I went into private practice, where I focused my practice areas on education law and labor and employment law. And 11 years later, I am still working as a labor and employment law attorney.
00:03:22
Speaker
the General Counsel of the County College, and I've been here for the last four and a half years representing the school. I am the incoming Vice President of Government Relations and General Counsel at Monroe College, which I will be starting in about a week. I really love representing schools and I'm really excited to continue to do this work at a larger school. Excellent. Thank you so much for being here today, Joy.
00:03:48
Speaker
Patty, last but certainly not least.
Patty's Career Reflection and Role Transition
00:03:50
Speaker
Good afternoon. It is wonderful to be here in such a steam company. My name is Patty Santel. I'm a 1985 graduate from the Camden campus. After I graduated, I clerked for the New Jersey Supreme Court.
00:04:05
Speaker
I spent a few years at a large firm in North Jersey. And for the past 31 years, I have been with the Philadelphia based law firm of White & Williams spending the last seven years as the firm's managing partner. Over that time, the firm grew to over 200 lawyers with 10 offices in six states. So it's been a really exciting seven years.
00:04:28
Speaker
But I'm also excited that effective the first of this year, I have a new position as chair American and I'm really excited about the next stage of my career.
00:04:37
Speaker
Excellent. So, for those folks who are listening Patty, who don't know much about law firm life, what does it mean to be a managing partner? It is a great question. In fact, my elevator speech until January 1st was, I am the CEO of a law firm. So at White & Williams, the managing partner serves in an identical function to the CEO of a corporation, manages day-to-day operations, strategy.
00:05:04
Speaker
recruiting, long-term planning, practice, development. It's running a business. Right. Exactly. And I think, you know, what's interesting is it's one of those things where, you know, people go to law school and don't think about what it means to run a law practice, right? That the skills that you learned in law school are not necessarily what you need to run a law practice. So that's something I think Maritza is going to be able to talk to us about as well. But I want to, I want to start with the typical question that I ask of everybody who's a guest.
00:05:32
Speaker
on the power of attorney.
Patty's Motivation for Law
00:05:34
Speaker
And that question is, what's your origin story? You know, given all the options that we all have in the world in terms of what we want to do with our lives and our careers, everybody on this call decided that law school was the way to go. So I'm always curious about why that's where people landed. So let's see, let's actually, Patty, let me, let's, let's start with you. What's your origin story? How and why is it that you became a lawyer? So, you know,
00:06:02
Speaker
I've heard this story from a lot of other folks, you know, growing up, I was, of course, I was a very good student I love school I love learning, but I was also precocious, and I had a knack for arguing myself out of a lot of situations and so that was certainly when I was much younger when I first bought.
Maritza's Educational Path and Influences
00:06:21
Speaker
I should be a lawyer. But to be honest with you, I really didn't think about it again until I was ending my junior year in college and having to make my decision about what to do. The easy part was I very much wanted to continue my education by going to graduate school. But I did, it's interesting that you mentioned studying business because I did take both the LSATs and the GMATs
00:06:46
Speaker
And while I was probably leaning towards going to law school, the deciding factor was that I did significantly better on the LSATs than the GMATs. And I took that as a sign. And I want to also mention that for a number of years when I was practicing law, I would say there was a reason I went to law school and not business school. I stopped saying that probably by the time I became a partner because I realized
00:07:13
Speaker
That all of us are essentially running a business, whether you're in management or not you're managing.
00:07:20
Speaker
a practice, you have clients, you have bills, you have staff that you supervise. So we can't avoid the business function. And I don't want to get too far beyond the scope of your question, but I think it's really wonderful that Rutgers Law offers a joint degree. And if there were one thing I could do all over again, it might have been taking some business classes, if not an undergrad in law school. So anyway, thank you for letting me answer that. Of course.
00:07:50
Speaker
Let's see, Maritza, how about we hear from
Maritza's Advocacy and Teaching Role
00:07:53
Speaker
you next? What's your origin story? Sure. So I am the daughter of immigrants. I was born and raised in Newark, New Jersey, and I went to Rutgers College undergrad, and I studied comparative literature and women's studies.
00:08:09
Speaker
And after I graduated college, I worked for about a decade working in publishing, advertising. In law, in college, I had been active, like thinking on some campaigns. And I got to be a page at the Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles. So I got the political bug very early on. And every four years I was basically at the convention working for the DNC as a volunteer in some capacity.
00:08:36
Speaker
Which led me to end up working on the campaign for, then it was Senator Corzine but for Governor Corzine. And so I ended up working in the administration and I got placed in the Department of the Public Advocate, which at that point the new public advocate for the newly restored department was Ronald Chen.
00:08:58
Speaker
his confidential assistant, which is like another way of saying like someone to kind of like help you learn the political scheme of like Trenton to help with your transition. So it was quite an experience because he is an academic and a law professor by training and he's just a brilliant man. And so being in the car with him every day, I felt like this is what it must be like in law school. I mean, he was
00:09:23
Speaker
We spent hours every day driving all over the state and I got to work on all these great public interest issues which I was always very passionate about and so I had always wanted to go to law school but truthfully I just never thought I would get in. So I just convinced myself that it was just not in the cards for myself and the more I spent time with him I think
00:09:47
Speaker
He eventually would ask me, like, have you considered it? And I said, yeah, but I'd kind of brush it aside. And then to his credit, he did not let me go by without, you know, applying. And he like really stayed on me. I really didn't want to apply because I couldn't take the heartbreak if I didn't get in. And, you know, I got in and, you know, I credit him and.
00:10:09
Speaker
and he's a mentor, but I went in and I've been kind of doing everything I wanted to do since, helping the community I want to help and being around all the people I want to be around. So that's my story. Excellent. Thank you. And for those who are listening and who don't know, Ron Chen is a long-term professor.
00:10:30
Speaker
at Rutgers Law in Newark and also did a stint as the dean of the law school in Newark, although I'm sure he is grateful to be back on
Early Inspirations for Deb and Joy
00:10:38
Speaker
the faculty and not deeding any longer. Deb, how about you? I think some time around middle school, my mother telling me I should be a lawyer when I would argue with her all the time started to stick. And I've always liked the reading and the writing part of school and certainly was also a rules
00:10:56
Speaker
follower or a rules avoider how to get around them without actually breaking them so which became a good trait for a lawyer, actually, and as a litigator. The rules part of it is really what interested me once I got into the practice I went to a small liberal arts school, I was the first in my family to go to college.
00:11:17
Speaker
It was kind of a difficult decision that way to figure out what I wanted to do and where I should end up, but I ended up at a good place. I was an international studies and political science major and had looked at the Foreign Service at one point. I spent some time in Washington during college.
00:11:32
Speaker
but took the LSAT, went on to law school. And once I got there, I was so happy. It just made sense to me. Once, liberal arts is a great education and I recommend it, but law school just seemed like, oh, this is what I was going towards. This is focused. This is gonna get me into a career. So having a look back. Excellent, thank you. And Joy, how about you? Yeah, so very similarly, when I was in middle school, I learned essentially what lawyers do. And my parents said, you know,
00:12:02
Speaker
You have an argument for everything. So you should consider being a lawyer. They actually took that recommendation a step further. And when I was in seventh grade, one of our family friends was a solo practitioner in Morristown, New Jersey. And he gave me the opportunity to come and work for him for two summers and allowed me to assist him with client intake and reading over briefs he'd written.
00:12:27
Speaker
And I realized then, you know, this is what I, what I'd like to do. So I graduated from Fordham University. While I was at Fordham, I majored in psychology and Spanish. I've always been interested in the way in which we as humans behave and the ways in which we function and how that relates to, you know, our conduct. And it was exciting for me because I figured, well, if I'm going to go to law school and I'm going to study the law, I should probably
00:12:55
Speaker
you know, know a little more about human behavior. So one of the great things about going to law school is that you can major in anything, essentially, as long as it's something that you love. And I love what I studied.
00:13:06
Speaker
even considered becoming a psychotherapist and not going to law school. But ultimately, my initial desire to become an attorney prevailed. And after that, we went on to law school. Can I comment on one theme here?
Challenges for First-Gen Law Students
00:13:20
Speaker
Absolutely. So three of us have mentioned that we were really good at arguing when we were younger. And so, you know, for the listeners who might think, well, why would I why do I want to go to school to learn how to argue with people?
00:13:36
Speaker
I just want to say it took me some time in practice, in private practice, working as a lawyer. It's only one small part of what we do.
00:13:47
Speaker
Really, what I love the most about the law, and it's taken me time to appreciate this, is we're problem solving. That's how I look at it. Sometimes we have to argue or debate to solve the problem, to resolve the issue. But again, to me, and I'm not a trial lawyer, but I am a litigator. I do spend time in court or handling matters in court. The arguing is just one small component of it.
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah, I love that Patty. And I think we're often in a position where we sort of think about, you know, what is it that we do as lawyers? What's a word that describes?
00:14:20
Speaker
what we do, and I think problem solver is one that a lot of us would use. I often use the word storyteller. One of the most important things that lawyers do is we craft stories and we craft narratives. I wonder if Maritza or Deb or Joy, if any of you have a sort of word that you think encapsulates what we do as lawyers. For many years, and this is when I was an assistant prosecutor, so I wasn't on the business side.
00:14:48
Speaker
of law. But one of the words that I often use to describe myself the firefighter, you know, every day there was a different fire to extinguish. And I felt that that more accurately described my job than saying that I was an attorney. So firefighter is something that comes to mind. What about you, Maritza?
00:15:09
Speaker
I think accessibility would be the word that comes to mind. You know, I work in family law and my clientele is primarily, I would say 95% Latino immigrants and, you know, access to justice is something in the United States that we're not
00:15:26
Speaker
allowed an attorney in family court and the majority of the population that accesses the family courts are probably like 85% proces. So when I get clients, I think that when you speak to them in their own language, it just makes them more comfortable that they can access the courts. And so that's the word that comes to mind.
00:15:50
Speaker
What about you, Deb? I guess I consider myself somewhat of a professional guide through the legal system in some ways, giving people either if it's a litigation matter, what their options are. I always like to discuss what the merits of a case are before I talk to them.
00:16:08
Speaker
somehow can help tell the story, as you said, Kim, a storyteller. And as I do more transactional work now in the environmental field on real estate transactions and things like that, it's the same idea. You're still guiding people through a transaction.
00:16:25
Speaker
and giving them your professional advice. You're giving them your best ideas on how things should go, but really the decision is for them to make. So you're really guiding them through what is just sometimes a really difficult time in their life as well. Yeah. I think, I think one of the many things that TV shows about lawyers will often get wrong. One is about how much time people spend in court. Two is about how much time folks actually have to spend being a counselor.
00:16:53
Speaker
That it's not just your client says to you, go do this, and then you just run off to court and you argue whatever they've told you to argue. But there's a real relationship that has to happen there, if you're going to be good, if you're going to be good at the job. So I do want to go back, Deb, to something that you said before, which is that you were a first-generation college student. Are there other folks here who are also first-gen college or first-gen law school?
00:17:18
Speaker
Okay, Maritza. So I would love to, oh, and Cottie as well. Oh, enjoy. And I- All four of us. First Gen Law School. First Gen Law School, okay. So one of the things that has been amazing to me about doing this podcast is the number of people, and we don't sort of screen for this,
00:17:36
Speaker
But the number of people who I have interviewed who are graduates of our law school who it turns out are either first gen college or first gen law school, which one I think sort of speaks to what Rutgers does, right, which is that we are a place that creates accessibility for a whole wide range of people. But it's also, I think, an opportunity to have conversations about
00:17:55
Speaker
you know, what's it like to be somebody who walks into law school who isn't one of those students who has, you know, generations of lawyers in your past who you can sort of draw on, you know,
00:18:07
Speaker
what's my first year gonna be like? What does it mean to get a clerkship? What is OCI? What's on-campus interviewing? And you don't have the background on that. So I'd love to hear you all talk a little bit about what it was like walking in to law school as somebody who didn't have some of the tools that other people have access to when they start.
Joy's Strategies for Law School Success
00:18:30
Speaker
Joy, do you wanna start us off with this one?
00:18:32
Speaker
The question alone just took me back to my first year in law school. And, you know, you know, throughout your academic experience, you know, you are always, I think this is true for many law students, you know, you're always the top of your class, you know, you normally, you know, navigate through school, you know, obviously with challenges. But I think that law school is really,
00:19:02
Speaker
one of the first times when I felt that I really needed a strategy to move forward successfully. I'm very thankful that I was a part of the MSP, the Minority Student Program at Rutgers Law School, and that program and the people that I worked with within that program were essential to giving me a guide. I remember my small section class, which is just a group
00:19:31
Speaker
of law students who have most of their classes together. I remember that there were a number of students whose parents were attorneys or whose grandparents were attorneys. You know, they understood L2D cases. They understood OCI, the on-campus interviewing process. They understood what it meant to have really great outlines to support you in their respective courses.
00:19:58
Speaker
And these were all terms that were new to me. And I had to find ways really to navigate through this academic experience that was very different than any I had ever experienced before. You know, I had always worked hard and working hard always paid off for me educationally. But in law school, I perceived as a first year student that I had to do more than work hard.
00:20:26
Speaker
I really had to have a plan of action to not just make good grades, but to establish the relationship and to really gain the knowledge that I needed to navigate my way through this profession. But I really had to be strategic to get from point A to point B to point C and to all the other points after that. So I think when you come in and you don't have
00:20:55
Speaker
the background that other students might have through family relationships. It can be a little more of a challenge, but I am proof that it's attainable and it can be done. You have to not be afraid to ask questions. You have to not be afraid to ask for help.
00:21:14
Speaker
And I think also, you know, just, just being very humble. And I'll also say for folks who are listening that our MSP program started over 50 years ago at the Newark location, is now in existence on the Camden, at the Camden location.
Support Systems and Networking in Law School
00:21:27
Speaker
as well, and we have a whole podcast that is just talking about MSP. So please take a listen to that if you want to know more about that program, which I think has been phenomenal. Does anybody else want to share their experience as a first gen college student or law student, some of the lessons that you learned from that? I would love to follow up on what Joy had to say. Look, I was very fortunate. I went to a great four-year college
00:21:56
Speaker
But I am the only lawyer to my knowledge in my family on either side. I mean, you know, I'm really straining to think of anyone. And I'm the child of an interesting marriage. My father is the, you know, was the son of immigrants who came here when they were teenagers and they were uneducated, illiterate, never really learned English. Don't spoke Italian in the household.
00:22:20
Speaker
growing up, my mother on the other hand, on the other hand, her descendants came to like Jamestown, you know, hundreds of years ago, and they were also pioneers on both sides, pioneers, but on my mother's side of the family, they were educated. So there were a lot of, there is a track record of educators, women in my mother's, on my mother's side of the family. So I have the benefit of that, but like Joy, and I love school. I think I said that earlier. I love going to school. I love learning.
00:22:49
Speaker
And I was so looking forward to having to continue that experience in law school, but it was hard. Law school was hard work. It was challenging for me. At times, I never felt I was completely on top of everything. That could be because I'm a perfectionist and I'm a control freak and I'm a meticulous in my preparation. But I think I really loved what Joy said about having a plan, including developing relationships.
00:23:17
Speaker
I'm so grateful that I came to the Camden campus and had roommates and develop friendships, as opposed to staying at home at my parents house and commuting and perhaps not developing the same relationships. Because that was so important to me to have that infrastructure other people who were going through the same thing that I was going through the same insecurities.
00:23:39
Speaker
the same newness of it all and the challenges of being able to experience that together. And I also had interesting experiences my first year and into my second year working at local law firms where my office literally was in the library. It was very entertaining. And I did everything from filing books and materials in the library to drafting legal papers for the lawyers and hearing all their stories. I had a very interesting experience that helped kind of shape my decisions going forward.
00:24:09
Speaker
Thanks, Patty. I could just add to Kim. The thing that freaked me out the most the first day of law school was realizing that your whole grade was one exam. That was just like the hardest thing I think and nobody had ever told me that. But to Joy's point, I found my group to do outlines and if somebody you had to rely on because you were kind of sharing outlines and then you had to make sure they were doing their job,
00:24:32
Speaker
And to this day, those six women are my closest friends from law school because we just developed such a bond during that process. And we all made it through. I have done some interviews for the MSP students the last few years because I understand that first interview when you're trying to get that first summer job or that first job, just how nervous you are. So I'm always happy to kind of give back and try with the newer students and let them know they'll get through it.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah. And we appreciate that. Maritza, did you want to add something?
Evening Law Student Challenges
00:25:05
Speaker
Yeah, no. I mean, I think that, you know, I was an evening student, so I had kind of worked about a decade before going to law school. So that definitely helped the transition in terms of knowing how to deal with professionals. But I guess if you're, you're coming in, like if you are, if I had just been going to law school immediately after college, it would have been a much harder transition, obviously.
00:25:26
Speaker
I wouldn't have had that experience of knowing how to network. And it's really hard, especially too, if you're from an immigrant family, because in one sense, and this could be especially true in the last few years, that you grow up and a lot of children of immigrant parents, you kind of grow up invisible, right? And in the shadows, because you don't want to draw attention to your family, the last thing you want.
00:25:51
Speaker
is to be, you know, out there and everyone know who you are, right? So you come from an upbringing where, you know, the less people know about us, the less attention we have, the better. And then you come to law school and they're like, put yourself out there, you know, tell people who you are. And so it's a really hard transition to make and it's confusing. And then the self-doubt kicks in on top of that. So it's, it is, my heart goes out to
00:26:18
Speaker
to definitely first gen law students and of course evening students too who have to just transition into this new world while they're trying to just have a family.
00:26:28
Speaker
maintain a job and then also go to school. I want to stick with you on the, on the evening student thing. You know, I think one of the things that a lot of our faculty will say, not that there's anything wrong with our day students, but the evening students are a very special group of people, right? I mean, folks who are working all day and then they come to law school, they, you know, they're in the building until, you know, 10 o'clock at night, multiple days a week.
00:26:55
Speaker
And then they do it all over again the next day. So what are the tricks of the trade for surviving being an evening law student, Ritza? Oh my goodness. You know, it's a big transition. I worked full-time as an investigator for the public defender's office while I went to law school at night. And so, you know, my day would start at 5.30, 6 a.m. and it would end at 10 o'clock at night. Fridays, you know, just kind of like doing errands and then Saturday wake up
00:27:24
Speaker
like you sleep until seven.
00:27:26
Speaker
And then you get ready, you do your errands. And if you woke up at nine, it felt like you blew the whole day. And so you do this day in and day out for four years. And it just becomes part of who you are, but obviously there's sacrifices to be made. I gave up, you just have to weigh the pros and cons of where you want your time to be spent. And so I decided that I wasn't gonna watch TV or go to the movies. So I gave that up when I went to law school. I haven't really done it since.
00:27:56
Speaker
And you don't miss it sometimes, but you also just realize that there are ways that you can be present, but not be present when you have all your friends around. So you realize like the importance of being more intentional in when you set up time to meet people, like even dates with your partner or your spouse, you know, you can live with them, but not really ever pay attention to them until you, you are completely distracted. And so you have to set up time. I think those are some of the things that are really effective for,
00:28:25
Speaker
law students and also the one advice that I got like the first day it really stuck with me and Dean Rothman at that point had mentioned it and he said look you're going to learn a skill set that is going to be really helpful to you. You're going to learn how to argue and pick apart arguments and your ear is going to be especially trained to hear certain things and to then just shoot back something.
00:28:48
Speaker
don't use that in your personal life and he's right and I use that and I and there were times I didn't and I paid the price uh but but more importantly you gotta fight fair you know and and it's a skill set you learn but you know when it comes to being at home you gotta leave your armor at work and at school. I did want to add to what what Maritza had to say I'm I I to this day I am in complete awe of people that are able to
00:29:16
Speaker
work full-time and go to law school at night. And I've always been a little bit jealous of them because obviously they have the skill set to prepare for the rigors of dealing with the work-life balance issues that some of us had to deal with for the first time
00:29:35
Speaker
after we graduated. So I always felt, and in my class, some of the most successful students were the evening students. So they had the drive and the focus as well as the maturity and this ability to balance, which is remarkable.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And to focus, right? To just sort of drill down and say, you know, you don't waste a lot of time when you're teaching evening classes because the students keep you focused because they're like, we need to get out of here and you need to tell us what we need to know, which is great. I don't mind that at all. I want to transition to talking about life post-law school.
Diverse Career Paths and Passion
00:30:16
Speaker
You know, I have four very accomplished women
00:30:19
Speaker
who are participating on this podcast and we've got sort of interesting range. So we've got a solo practitioner who graduated in the 2000s. We've got Joy who went from doing work as a prosecutor to working in the private sector and doing education law. We've got Deb who has been at the same law firm
00:30:41
Speaker
I'm a lifer. Yeah. I mean, literally since law school, which I think is quite stunning, and then Patti, who has also been long-term at a particular law firm and who has moved up the ranks in really amazing ways during the years that you've been at White & Williams, Patti.
00:31:01
Speaker
So I want to talk about not just about sort of, you know, how do you create a career path, which I think is a really challenging thing for students to think about, but also how you create a career path as a woman in law. Because one of the things that we know is that there are lots of women who we've been about 50% of law school classes have been women for quite some time. And yet when you go out into the world and you look at who's in charge in lots of places, it isn't necessarily
00:31:31
Speaker
So I would love to talk to you all, have a conversation with you all about making those career choices. Deb, it seems like you found a place that was the right place for you and you dug in. Maritza, you found that the right place for you was working for yourself. But how did you kind of come to that? And my guess is that, particularly for you, Maritza, my guess is that you didn't go to law school thinking, I'll just graduate and be a solo practitioner, right? Most people don't go into law school thinking that.
00:32:00
Speaker
Well, I kind of, it was a goal of mine, right? Cause I hadn't worked already, right? So I'd worked already 10, almost 10 years. And I knew that if I had just put myself through hell for four years, that I was not going to just take any job. Like it had to be the job, right? And of course I had very high expectations and it was probably naive on my part.
00:32:20
Speaker
But at the same time, it's like you said, sometimes it's better to know where you don't want to be than you may not know where you want to land exactly, but at least know where you don't want to be is equally as important. And so coming out of it, the job market was really tough. And so I had gotten offers and I would go to these interviews. And then in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, God, please don't hire me.
00:32:46
Speaker
You know, this is not where I want to be. And I think I did get one or two offers. I don't really remember because I didn't really, that's not where my focus was. And then it came to a point where I said, you know what, what's the worst that can happen? Like my plan had been to go work for a boutique firm, learn from them, and then go open my own firm.
00:33:07
Speaker
But I had to accelerate, I had no in-between. So I said, you know what, let's just do it. You just have to sometimes follow that calling and just know that, and what I always tell women, especially women, if you are going to regret not doing this, then you need to do this.
00:33:25
Speaker
And you need to, because everyone, especially immigrants, they have that hustle. We just don't give it the credit. Just because your parents didn't wear a suit, that doesn't mean that your mom that was a housekeeper and was working for herself and working her calendar to fit in as many
00:33:40
Speaker
clients that she could wasn't hustling and didn't give you all the skills you need. You know, your dad who's working on the corner or has worked in the construction companies or your, you know, your aunts and uncles who had a local store, they all gave you those skills. They just, you know, it's just appearing in a different way. So they're equally as important and they will be valuable to you. Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that we often, you know, when we sort of describe who were the people who go to Rutgers Law School, we talk a lot about
00:34:10
Speaker
you know, people who have grit, right? So folks who are ready and willing to put in the work and who have a really strong work ethic and can do things like come out of law school and start their own, their own law firms. I want to, I want to stick with you for a little bit, Maritza, because you were talking before and I want to give you more time to talk about this, about the work that you do and particularly that you are focused on immigrants and immigrant communities.
00:34:37
Speaker
with the family law work that you do. How is it that that's where you decided to land?
00:34:43
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm, as I mentioned, I'm from Essex County, born and raised in Newark, New Jersey. And I'd always, you know, one of my issues that I'm very passionate about are, you know, surrounding immigrant populations and how we serve them. And, and when I went to law school, I had just been working in government doing, working on public interest issues that affect a lot of immigrant populations. So
00:35:08
Speaker
It served to me, especially as a daughter of immigrants, that I have this skill set and I have to use it. So it's why I intentionally set up an office here and I have another office in New Brunswick, a satellite office. And it was with my intention to be able to help those populations because everyone should be able to get quality legal services without having to spend an arm and a leg.
00:35:33
Speaker
Now the challenge is trying to help as many people without going broke and then maybe having to say to yourself, this is not a nonprofit, but you just have to juggle that. And I do a lot of volunteer work with the organizations.
00:35:50
Speaker
that have clients that probably ultimately I couldn't help on a bigger scale and I help as much as I can, but I think that, you know, we have so many great attorneys and I think I see that a lot with our students that have the same background and they are interested in helping their communities and I really that's why I really make a push for folks to consider
00:36:11
Speaker
solo practice because a lot of times I think that, you know, in law school we get kind of put on two paths, you know, one, which are great paths right you know one is working for a firm and the other one is working in government or public interest, but we don't really talk about the third firm because maybe we think that
00:36:27
Speaker
that we need to have all these prerequisites before we can go on our own. And then when you really come to think of it, a lot of students, especially those who might be evening students who have like this life experience behind them, who are perfectly suited, you know, for going to become solo practitioners, it's just a matter of figuring out the administrative stuff of getting settled that is really, you know, just, once you demystify that, the rest of it is cake.
00:36:53
Speaker
And you have to have the boldness in the first instance, right? To say, I'm going to do it and we're going to see how it goes. That's right. So looking back. Yes, exactly. Deb, how about we jump to
Work-Life Balance in Law
00:37:05
Speaker
you? So, you know, I think a lot of people don't graduate from law school now, don't imagine a 30 plus year career at the same law firm. So let's talk about that. What is it that has led you to stay at Artur and Reiner for as long as you have?
00:37:20
Speaker
I get asked this a lot. I do a lot of interviews and I always get asked, well, why are you still there? And it has to be the people. The work of law is tough litigation. It's an adversary system, which means you're always fighting with somebody. And as I get older, my patience is definitely a lot less than it used to be with that. But it's nice to have that environment where I can go to the person in the office next door and complain or ask for advice or
00:37:46
Speaker
We have more senior attorneys that can really help. They've dealt with that judge before and things like that, that I just really like that environment. It's been always a supportive environment. But when I started, there were no women partners. I didn't see anybody that looked like me as a partner at that point.
00:38:04
Speaker
And I and one other woman were the first two in 1994, which is kind of late for a firm to make women partners. But I think we've been making up for a lost time since then. But I've always felt the firm has treated me very fairly. I always concentrated on being the best lawyer I could be, not the best woman lawyer I could be, be the best lawyer I could be.
00:38:25
Speaker
And trusted that the firm would treat me fairly and it has throughout all these years. And I really can't see going anywhere else, at least not to another firm. And I just had a wonderful mentor and several mentors over the years that have just really kept me here and helped me to really succeed and do what I wanted to do. At this point, I kind of feel I'm on our board of directors now and doing more management level.
00:38:50
Speaker
stuff and I just feel like I've done what I've wanted to do in this career. So it's been a great place for me. Excellent.
00:38:57
Speaker
And our turn Griner has been so good to us at Rutgers Law. So we don't want you to leave just in case they would turn on us if they were good. Joy, what about you? So you said, you know, you started off in the prosecutor's office and then you moved into education law. So, you know, what created that transition or was it something that you always knew that you wanted to do? So very early in my career, I knew that I had an interest in education law, higher education specifically.
00:39:26
Speaker
I started teaching on the college level. I want to say maybe two or three years out of law school. I taught at the graduate level and the undergraduate level. While teaching, I met a partner at the firm. He was also an adjunct professor, as I was. And he said, oh, you know, I know you're a prosecutor, but would you consider coming to our firm? And at the time, I really didn't have interest in doing it. But I went, interviewed, they made quite honestly an offer that I couldn't refuse.
00:39:55
Speaker
And I joined the firm. Getting into their education law and employment law practice, I didn't have a choice, actually. When I got there, they said, oh, you know, what are you interested in? I said, well, I've been doing domestic violence work. I'm interested in perhaps working in your family law department. And they said, oh, you know, that's wonderful. We don't have an opening in family, but we do have an opening in labor, employment, and education. So that's where they put me. And honestly, I haven't looked back since. I love the firm.
00:40:25
Speaker
I loved, you know, my colleagues, as Deb mentioned, and it was really wonderful having such great mentors there and people that you literally just walk down the hall to, and, you know, if you had questions about a particular area, you know, they were available and were able to assist. I only left because I received a general counsel offer for college, but I do want to just impress upon listeners that it's okay to change courses.
00:40:53
Speaker
You know, when I started out, I really had no idea that I would be doing what I'm doing now, but I absolutely love what I'm doing now. It's okay. You know, for those of us who are very type A and very much like to be in control, you know, sometimes we make a plan and we're wedded to that plan. I'm glad that I wasn't wedded to my plan and I was open to new ideas and to new opportunities that didn't fit within the picture that I had in my head of what I'd be doing as a lawyer.
00:41:19
Speaker
So I just encourage listeners to do that. If a great opportunity comes and if it's something that will give you an opportunity to grow and really build your practice, I say do it. I love that piece of advice. Don't be afraid to try something that wasn't in your head in the first place because you might surprise yourself. So I said I wanted to talk about mentors and the importance of mentoring, also sort of talk about
00:41:45
Speaker
you know, red flags, things that should make you sort of pause about whether this is the kind of environment where you want to practice. But, you know, those questions are coming to me in part because one of the conversations that's been happening out in the world during this pandemic is how it has had particularly difficult impacts
00:42:05
Speaker
on women and that's, you know, not just in law, women in lots of different professions. You know, you have some economists saying that, you know, the progress that women have made in the paid workforce might be, you know, you might lose decades of progress. And so one of the conversations that we've been having institutionally, but I think in law schools in general has been a conversation about how do we on one hand model the kind of
00:42:31
Speaker
behavior that we want to have happening out in the world, right? Which is compassion and empathy and how do we make our workplaces places where people can thrive and be successful while also recognizing that there are lots of workplaces out there that are not necessarily particularly empathetic, right? And there is this sort of vision that, you know, it's a 24 hour job and you should always be on call. You know, you hear about people getting in trouble because their kids run past the
00:43:00
Speaker
the camera while they're on Zoom calls. So the larger question is a question about how do we build the kind of profession that we want and what do we want that profession to look like? But underneath that are these questions about mentoring, how do we keep women in the profession, and questions about how do we help our students avoid workplaces?
Importance of Mentors and Shared Values
00:43:22
Speaker
where they're not going to get the kind of support that they need in order to be successful as lawyers. So very big questions. You can pick whatever piece of the puzzle you want to speak on. But I think these are conversations that have really come to the fore during this pandemic, as we see what it takes to continue to be successful in a really hard charging field, particularly as a woman, and especially if you're a woman who has caregiving responsibilities. Joy, do you want to start us off?
00:43:52
Speaker
Sure, sure. One of the things that I thought about as I listened to the question, and Maritza touched on this earlier, I think for law students, especially for students who are recent graduates or soon to be graduates, the focus is on getting a job. And I think oftentimes in the process, there isn't a consideration as to whether I really want them.
00:44:18
Speaker
It's equally as important to want to be in a particular environment as it is to be wanted, you know, depending on, you know, what your individual circumstances are, you know, there might be, you know, an opportunity, you know, a big name, and, you know, the compensation might be terrific, but if it's going to place demands
00:44:38
Speaker
on your life that are not reasonable or demands on your life that are not feasible for you, then, you know, maybe it's not the best place. And the best place, you know, as I've learned over the years is truly subjective. I think that COVID, in particular, you know, has shown us that, you know, we really have to be very purposeful about where we seek to pursue professional opportunity.
00:45:05
Speaker
For example, if you do have a child, let's say, and they're learning from home, if you're working someplace where it's an issue, if there is some noise in the background or if they see your child running past, I mean, some things are just outside of your control. It's always been very important to me to work someplace where a healthy work-life balance is encouraged. When I was in private practice,
00:45:30
Speaker
You know, I build a lot of hours. However, you know, the firm was very understanding when I had to do things, you know, for my family. My son was a toddler at the time and, you know, they were very understanding if, you know, I needed to do something for him for school or, and I appreciated that. So I think what's really important is to number one, you know, realize, and I do believe that this sometimes comes a little later in your career when you're
00:45:58
Speaker
you know, younger in your career, sometimes you do just have to work. But if you do have a choice, and if you are able to choose some place that will allow you to be all of the things that you desire to be, whatever your roles are, you want to be some place that embraces all of the roles that you play, in addition to providing you, you know, with tremendous professional opportunity. So I think that these are some things that come with time. But I think that it's also important to recognize
00:46:29
Speaker
that you have a skill set, that you have a skill set that's transferable to a number of different places and opportunities. And you want to apply those someplace where you're going to be valued from a holistic perspective. That was a great answer. Who wants to go next? I'll go next. Just follow up on what Joy said. And I think what she was getting at is kind of the idea of FaceTime. And that's a red flag, I think,
00:46:58
Speaker
I would tell students if they're at a firm and there looks like people are just there because they need to be seen not that they have work to do that that was always a red flag for me, and my firm never really had that we would you know we had a lot of our
00:47:15
Speaker
attorneys that were coaching sports teams. So they'd be leaving at three o'clock. They may be getting back on the computer later and getting their work done. It's not to say we're not working hard, but you're able to have that work-life balance because I think too much of one thing you're going to burn out. So you really do need that balance in your life. And I think if anything, the pandemic has shown us that lawyers can work effectively at home.
00:47:38
Speaker
There are some attorneys that just thought that attorneys that were going home at six o'clock were not getting back on the computer and working until midnight, but they are, and they can, and they can do it effectively. So I do think that there will, the pandemic will have a silver lining there that there will be more opportunities for people to understand that they don't have to be in the office to work. I think regular office hours, at least a few days a week, there's going to be required again at some point, hopefully, but, you know, maybe more of a part-time schedule or more flex time schedule.
00:48:08
Speaker
which I think will be good for us and good for women who have, I had two children while I was, while I've been practicing. They're both grown and married at this point, but I always got the calls from daycare. My husband was very active, but he never got those calls. So society just still looks to women for child care as a primary child caregiver.
00:48:30
Speaker
And I do think that we have made developments and we have to kind of fight to make sure that we have the schedule and the balance that we need. Absolutely. Maritza, you want to go next? Sure. I think that some of the things that I would encourage anyone to look into is when they're trying to find their mentor, they have to understand as well that mentorship is a two-way street. It's not like a one-way street when it comes to a mentor.
00:48:57
Speaker
You can find a mentor, you can be assigned a mentor, but it's not like they're supposed to trickle down all these knowledge, trinklets and amazing little stories and advice that you're going to take with you. It goes both ways, just like they are going to support you, you have to support them.
00:49:14
Speaker
And you have to take an interest in their career and it could just be like saying hey I saw that you you wrote this article or I saw you know congratulations on that promotion or getting recognized that your law school, you know, it's about supporting them and also taking an interest.
00:49:30
Speaker
in folks. But I also think it even goes back further. I always tell people, and especially the people that I coach, start from your strengths. You know, so often times we try to fix ourselves and try to fix the things that we're not good at. And I always say start with your strengths.
00:49:46
Speaker
Also, just be in tune with what your values are. Does the firm, does the internship, does the company, wherever you are, does that place reflect the values that you hold? You can tell by the way they're supporting you. If you're taking an interest in supporting the folks there, are they doing the same to you?
00:50:06
Speaker
Thank you so much for that. That's one of the things that I also say to students a lot. At the end of the day, you have to go home with yourself and put your head down on the pillow and think about what you did that day at work. And if you're not going to feel good about what you did that day at work, that's going to catch up to you. It's very hard to do that year after year and feel good about yourself.
00:50:27
Speaker
the idea of finding a place where your values are shared, I think is so absolutely critical. So thanks so much for saying that Maritza. Patty? Yes. So I'm going to talk about the positive experiences that I've had and then how they can impact on a positive management of a law practice. So the red flags will be the opposite of everything I'm
Advice for Prospective Law Students
00:50:50
Speaker
about to say. So first, when I practiced in North Jersey, I was blessed with
00:50:55
Speaker
being surrounded by some very strong women who were very supportive. I'm not saying that the men were also supportive, but there were a group of female associates at my firm. If they saw you working late, they came in and said, do you need help? Can we do anything? We're ordering dinner. And I also got to try cases with talented female senior associates. So I got the opportunity not only to assist in a trial, but to work with women
00:51:24
Speaker
who the firm was having tried cases for a major client. So I had role models from the beginning, but they taught me the importance of being in a supportive work environment, which comes very easy to me. And I've continued that practice. When I got to White & Williams, I was hired to work for a particular male partner who was extremely talented, leader in a cutting edge practice.
00:51:51
Speaker
And he became not only my mentor and my coach, but also my sponsor. And he also ultimately became the managing partner of the firm. So he not only mentored and sponsored me in the practice of law, but also in law firm management. Lots of people are going to be familiar with the term mentor. They're not necessarily going to be familiar with the term sponsor.
00:52:12
Speaker
When you say that he was your sponsor, tell folks what you mean by that. So sure, a mentor can also be a sponsor. They can be interchangeable, but a mentor is someone who teaches you. A sponsor is someone who puts their neck on the line to say, I want this person to get the promotion, to get the case, to become partner, to make more money. They will invest in your future.
00:52:36
Speaker
And so sponsors are just as critical if you want a future at your firm, if you want a long-term future at your firm or your corporation.
00:52:47
Speaker
And what was particularly helpful was he not only mentored and sponsored me, but he helped me with the practice. He introduced me to clients. He gave me credit. He didn't take all of the credit. This is really critical to any new attorneys, but particularly to women and made sure that I got the opportunity. So what's really important for law firms
00:53:09
Speaker
today is to make sure that the opportunities are being evenly distributed you know don't favor the the men because they don't have child care issues or because they live closer to the office or because you play golf with them you know you have to make sure that the women and the diverse attorneys are getting the same
00:53:29
Speaker
opportunities. It's critical. The judges want to see it. The clients want to see it. You also have to, you know, as Deb pointed out, the pandemic, the silver lining is we have to be more flexible, whether that's remote working, flexible work schedules. It's really critical going forward. And my last piece of advice to anyone in law firm management is these programs are not just for women. It is particularly critical. And I just asked the new male managing partner
00:54:00
Speaker
to send an email around reminding that this is a message that everyone needs to hear. So men need to understand the challenges that women are having.
00:54:10
Speaker
in the workplace today. Absolutely. And one of the other things that I would say is that we need to understand that if we want women to have less caregiving responsibilities, then those responsibilities have to be shared, which means men shouldn't be shamed or embarrassed for taking paternity leave, and it should be made available to them. And all of those things are so important. And the other thing that I wanted to add, Patti, when you were talking about sponsors,
00:54:35
Speaker
I've heard people say sometimes the sponsor is the person who says your name in the rooms that you're not in. So you have somebody who is your advocate in these spaces who is saying, as you say, let's give that to Patty. Let's make sure that all of these people are getting opportunities.
00:54:52
Speaker
So I want to wind down because I've consumed so much of your time, but I have so much appreciated the conversation that we've been able to have. And I don't even know that I explained this at the beginning, but what binds the four of you, other than the fact that you're all Rutgers Law graduates, is that you are the four women who are founding co-chairs of the Rutgers Law Alumni Network, which is really exciting because it is the first alumni network for the law school in general. And it's also really the first
Rutgers Law Alumni Network
00:55:21
Speaker
Alumni organization that is explicitly for both campuses, which is also really exciting so you know to listen to the four of you talk about your own careers your own experiences in law school and then also what you're doing.
00:55:36
Speaker
in the profession, both for women, but just to make the profession better is such a gift. And we are so proud that all of you are Rutgers Law alum. So I'm going to finish this off by giving people one last opportunity if you want to take it and you don't have to take it. But I will often ask
00:55:56
Speaker
What's a piece of advice that you would give to somebody who's a prospective law student who's trying to figure out where they want to spend the next three or four years earning their law degree? I just say go to Rutgers. World-class reputation and look not only at the superb faculty and administration, but look at the alum. Present company included. Look at the accomplishments of the alum. Exactly. People do great things.
00:56:24
Speaker
I was going to say go to Rutgers too, because you don't have to go into extreme debt to get a wonderful law education, which I think was a great benefit. If you were into debt, it limits your options. If you wanted to do public interest or something that doesn't pay a lot of money, you're really limited if you've gone into a few hundred thousand dollars in debt for law school. And Rutgers has just as good as education as the other schools in my experience.
00:56:52
Speaker
I think that for evening students especially I would tell them to seriously consider Rutgers because their evening program like number one Rutgers is I think I don't know if we still hold the title but one of the most diverse schools for law like law schools.
00:57:08
Speaker
And when you come there, there is so much to be gained from having such a diversity in your law school. And especially if you are pivoting, you know, somewhere after you are mid-career somewhere and you've just decided that you want to go to law school, our evening student program, you know, they become your family.
00:57:25
Speaker
And the friends that I made in evening school, I don't think I would have ever been able to be friends with them because they came from such different parts of not only the world, but just life in general. And their experiences made those classrooms that much more of a rich experience.
00:57:43
Speaker
and the professors, especially those that are adjuncts, you know, not because I am one, but I think that they just bring this perspective of life and the way you take the law you learn and how it works in the real world and how it affects people.
00:58:00
Speaker
And I think that because of that, I think Rutgers is amazing. I, you know, I love the school anyway, but I think that also because they have the foresight to think of putting together initiatives like the ones that we're involved in, right? Where we can all get together. We have amazing kick-ass women in both campuses. Now we get to put them together and now we get to celebrate them together.
00:58:25
Speaker
Right, so now I get to celebrate the fact that our recent Supreme Court justice is just a Rutgers law student, you know, and not that she's a Camden person versus a Newark person. It's just, we get to support, you know, I get to support Patty and Deborah and Joy because we all have a shared experience of being at the law school. At the same time, also having just general conversations about life and how to navigate that when you're there, whether it be,
00:58:53
Speaker
you know, navigating in a law firm or just hearing about the way you have to prepare for, you know, just life when it happens. This is why the law school to me is the only choice. Yes. And in addition to all of that, you know, Rutgers is truly a wonderful place. But I also want students to know that there is a place for them at the law school. So, you know, whether you're a first generation college student or a law student
00:59:22
Speaker
You know, just always remember that you do belong. Law school is going to bring some challenges, perhaps challenges that, you know, you may have never experienced before or probably would not have even anticipated. But, you know, you will make it. You will be successful. And do to keep moving, you know, to keep going and find your place in this profession.
00:59:44
Speaker
Thank you so much for that. I think that's a really great place to end, right? That there's room in the profession for all of us and it's really about finding your place and finding the people who are gonna be your supportive community that helps you get through law school and then maybe are still your friends, you know, 30 plus years later, which is a real gift. So thank you all again. This was a really wonderful conversation. I so appreciate your time and I appreciate the work that you're doing on the alumni network and looking forward to
01:00:14
Speaker
Whatever the next event is going to be for the women graduates of Rutgers Law. So thanks, everybody. Thank you so much. Thank you.
01:00:28
Speaker
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