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Three Bi Guys, With Wives! (Season Finale)
4k Plays4 years ago
In our season two finale, Two Bi Guys presents: Three Bi (Married) Guys!
The experience of bisexual people in straight-appearing marriages is one of the most prevalent and yet still invisible among the queer community. Bi+ men are even less likely to be out than women, sometimes keeping the secret from their wives. In this extended episode, Rob interviews three Bi+ men who are (or have been) married to women, plus one of their wives (who is also bisexual), about the challenges and joys of this unique experience. We'll meet Austin from Ohio, who grew up in a conservative Mennonite culture that repressed his same-sex attractions for years; Rene from Chicago, a first-generation Mexican-American bi guy who had a perfect "Disney family" before coming out to his wife; and Howard and Elizabeth from New York, who skipped a few steps by meeting at a bisexual play party and continue to practice ethical non-monogamy.
We discussed how they all came to understand their bisexuality, why and how the men came out to their wives (or future-wives), how their wives dealt with the news and how the relationship moved forward (or didn't), why and how some of them stuck with monogamy while others negotiated opening things up, the importance of queer community within and outside the marriage, biphobia and bi-erasure from friends and family, how their identity affected their kids, and the many other aspects of marriage that intersect with a fluid sexuality.
If you're a bi married guy and are interested in sharing your story anonymously for Rob's ongoing oral history project, please send a message to @TwoBiGuys on Twitter or Instagram with a little bit of your background and story -- but keep in mind that not everyone can be included.
Two Bi Guys will be back for a third season after a summer hiatus! We're planning on bringing in some guest hosts so you can hear from a wider variety of Bi+ and non-binary voices, and we may tweak the format to help get more content out faster, so stay tuned. We are also developing ways to grow this project and develop a community for Bi+ men and all bisexual people -- subscribe and follow us on social media to get updates on all our plans. Thanks for listening to this season of Two Bi Guys!
Two Bi Guys is created and hosted by Alex Boyd and Rob Cohen
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
Season 2 is executive produced by Rob Cohen and produced by Alex Boyd and Moxie Peng, with support from IFP
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Transcript
Introduction and Season Finale Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
you
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Rob and it's our season finale. Welcome to the season finale of season two. I can't believe we've made it here. Today we are going to focus again on the experience of bi men who are married to women, which is a large and particularly invisible portion of the bi community.
Listener Acknowledgements and Podcast Growth Plans
00:00:34
Speaker
More on that in a moment, but first I just wanted to say thank you all for bearing with us this season. I apologize especially for the delay with this episode. It has been a crazy few weeks in addition to it requiring three separate interviews, a little more editing than normal, but it's just been a crazy month for me as I attempted to be vaccinated, which I'm halfway through and as we prepare to come out
00:01:00
Speaker
of being in this year-long quarantine in isolation and as we plan for the future. So I've been busy, but I hope you've enjoyed all the remote interviews that we've been able to do this year. We literally had our first in-person interview for this season scheduled last March, I think in mid-March.
00:01:19
Speaker
and it was one of the first things to get cancelled.
Remote Interviews Expand Reach
00:01:23
Speaker
But in the end there was a silver lining because throughout this year we've gotten to talk to some people outside of New York and LA who wouldn't have been able to do it in person anyway. And so we'd like to continue these remote interviews in the future.
00:01:38
Speaker
And plus, I just want to say that the podcast has been very helpful and nice for me personally this year to continue this routine and to continue working on something that I really care about and am passionate about. So I hope you've enjoyed it as well.
00:01:55
Speaker
Thank you for listening and sharing and supporting us. Please tell your friends while we're gone for this season, please share this podcast. Give us a rating and review if you can, because we are planning to come back for another season after a short break. I will need a short break, but we will be back and the more support we have, the more we can do, the more higher profile guests we can attract, the bigger this can get and the longer it can go on for.
00:02:24
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So stay tuned at the end of the episode for a few more details about next season.
Exploring Bi Men in Straight-Passing Marriages
00:02:30
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But for now, for today, we are focusing on bi men who are married to women, which is a huge group. Actually, most bi people end up in relationships with partners of a different sex.
00:02:46
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A 2013 Pew study showed that among all bisexual people in committed relationships, 84% are with a partner of a different sex, while only 9% have a same-sex partner. And there are various reasons for this. One of them is that, as we've talked about, many bi people are not out. Only 28% of bi people are out overall to most of their close friends and family.
00:03:13
Speaker
And that number is even lower for bi men, only 12% of bi men. So that's one reason if you're not out, it can be hard to date someone of the same sex. Another reason is that even among people who are out as bi, we know from other studies where people are asked to rate themselves on the Kinsey scale, we know that the majority of bi people put themselves closer
00:03:37
Speaker
to the heterosexual side of the Kinsey Scale. There's a lot of 1's and 2's. So it may be that many people who legitimately identify as bi are closer to one side than the other and would prefer a female romantic partner or a wife in the end.
00:03:52
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And another reason is just the odds. I mean, there are way more straight people in the world than queer people. We know that. It's just for now. Hopefully we're changing that. But at the moment, there are many more straight people. And so, for example, if you're a bi man, in theory, you could date or marry
00:04:13
Speaker
buy or straight women and buy or gay men but there are just many many more buying straight women out there than buying gay men so just probability wise of who you are going to meet and who you might date it's likely that a lot of bi men end up with women so
00:04:32
Speaker
Those are just a few reasons, but whatever the reasons, these relationships often keep bi men closeted and bi women because the marriages can appear heterosexual. They can quote, pass as straight unless you come out or as I like to say now, invite people in rather than coming out.
00:04:51
Speaker
And so because of that, there are unique challenges in these relationships that we'll explore today. So this was the topic of last season's finale also. And the response was huge. More people wrote in to us about that episode than any ever before. And based on that response, I decided to work on a side project, a personal project,
00:05:14
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which is an oral history of these men's experiences.
Oral History Project on Bi Men's Experiences
00:05:17
Speaker
So I've been interviewing people, so far I've conducted about a dozen interviews, I've been transcribing them, compiling them, editing them, and I am still figuring out exactly what form that final product will take.
00:05:30
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But because I could tell that was becoming like a longer term project, in the meantime, I wanted to share some of these experiences as soon as possible because I think that they could help other people going through something similar. So I decided to go back to a few of the men I interviewed for the project and invite them on to the podcast.
00:05:49
Speaker
And I found three men and one of their wives who are interested in sharing their stories. And I think these three, you know, doesn't cover everything, but I think they represent a pretty wide variety of bi experiences. These men come from different backgrounds, different types of families. Some are monogamous, but not all. Some are still married, but not all. They came out to their wives at different points in their relationships. They dealt with their identity differently as they grew up.
00:06:18
Speaker
However, at the same time as I went back to edit, I was struck by certain themes that seemed to come up over and over, and even specific words and phrases that these men used to describe their experience. And there's clearly, clearly a connection. And no matter where we begin, many bi men go on these similar journeys.
00:06:41
Speaker
But these experiences are so invisible, especially in straight passing marriages, that most people think they're going through these things alone. So that is exactly why I wanted to do this episode, to just put these stories out there. So we'll take a break from the influencers and activists and porn stars, although I promise we will get back to those next season.
00:07:02
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and instead today you'll just hear from three regular bi guys and one of their wives about the things they've personally been through, the struggles and the joys of their journeys and their relationships. Take from these stories what is helpful for you, leave behind what is not,
00:07:21
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And before I present them, I just want to thank the people that agreed to be interviewed for this so much. Some of the things we talked about are not easy, and I know personally how scary it can be to put this stuff out there.
00:07:36
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But I think it's such a brave thing to do. It could help others going through the same thing. And I also think that being open and vulnerable can be healing for ourselves. So thank you to Austin, Renee, Howard, and Elizabeth for participating. Good luck on your continued journeys. And I know that the example you're setting here will encourage others
00:08:00
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to be more open about these issues and to not live in fear or shame because we have nothing to be ashamed
Guest Story: Austin from Ohio
00:08:07
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of. And now, enjoy our first interview featuring Austin from Ohio. Hi, I'm here with Austin. Welcome to Two Bye Guys, Austin. Thank you. It's good to be here.
00:08:23
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Why don't you just start by telling us about your childhood and discovering your sexuality? When did you realize you might not be straight? How did that affect you growing up? What was that development like? Yeah, that's a good question. I grew up in a very...
00:08:43
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Well, it was a religious subculture. I grew up as a Mennonite in a conservative Mennonite community. And I didn't really know what it was to be bi at that time. So I just, I thought I was abnormal. And when I did learn what it was
00:09:04
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that men are attracted to men, I only thought there was one option, that you were either gay or you were straight. And so I had this fear that, oh, am I gay or am I straight? And I tried to figure it out and I kept continuing to have crushes on girls and boys. And during my childhood, I got teased for being gay because there were parts of me that were
00:09:33
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more feminine, at least in that culture. They're very strict roles for genders. And so I didn't always fit into those roles and was interested in fashion, interested in creativity, design, and it didn't always fit that. Fortunately, my father didn't fit those roles perfectly either, even though he is a straight man. He had a wood shop where he did creative things. He liked to cook.
00:10:02
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He didn't fit your stereotypical Mennonite farmer or carpenter male model. So yeah, in some ways I felt like an outsider as a kid because my dad wasn't a farmer. But yeah, I appreciate that now.
00:10:16
Speaker
I remember you telling me about how it felt like a very black and white culture, which I think is particularly hard when your sexuality or other parts of your identity exists somewhere in a gray area. What was that like? Yeah, it was so black and white. And it was difficult because I felt like I had to hide just an essential part of who I was in order to even to be, to participate in faith.
00:10:46
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participate in community or culture or anything, I had to hide this part of me that, particularly the part of me that was attracted to men. But in that context, I think what happens is either people just leave or else they're able to dissociate and just do that completely in secret and it's something that's this dark, dark secret and it actually gets, it interrupts their
00:11:13
Speaker
relationships and they're whatever and sometimes it comes out sideways. So when did you start exploring your sexuality? Either like, did you date girls? Did you have sexual experiences with girls? Or did you explore any with guys when you were growing up? My only sort of exploration was with other
00:11:35
Speaker
teenage guys. And it was basically sort of mutual masturbation or something like that. And for them, it was it was kind of a phase. For me, it was very much of like I was like, wow. But in that culture, it was very much let's keep our women pure. So there was much monitoring of women. And so I was I did not explore
00:12:04
Speaker
at all sexually with women until I got married. It's kind of ironic how that purity culture ends up leading you to something that is very forbidden by that culture. Yeah, it's fascinating. You mentioned that. I went to a very conservative Mennonite Bible college for a little while and the
00:12:30
Speaker
I mean, the dormitory and the shower room, it was like very homoerotic, like wrestling people in the shower room with soap all over the place. And I'm like, wow, this is like, this is interesting. So yeah, I found that to be sort of because then the women there had to dress a certain way that was extremely modest whenever they stepped outside of their dorm or whatever.
00:12:55
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and for them to have a skirt that was up past a certain point. And for me, it was like this double standard because I, on the one hand, I, there were these beautiful women, but you didn't really.
00:13:08
Speaker
I mean, yeah, and then there was these back in the shower room, there was six naked men. So it was like, how does this fit together? Yeah, so. And I assume nobody was talking about it in the context you would now. No, I actually, I really valued authenticity back then. And for me, it was, I had viewed that part of myself as sinful and
00:13:33
Speaker
dirty and forbidden. And I wanted to purify myself of it somehow. And that I mean, I actually sought out my own type of conversion therapy for a while. And so I tried to heal myself. So I would talk with my peers sometimes about that. Like I came out to a couple people in that setting. When I spoke with leadership, though, it was they didn't know what to do with it. Like I spoke with one leader and it was it was basically swept under the carpet and it wasn't even addressed like
00:14:03
Speaker
this temptation. I don't know. So which came first, like you coming to a realization of your identity and becoming comfortable with the idea of bisexuality or did you meet your wife first?
00:14:18
Speaker
I met my wife first. Okay. So tell us about that. And did you have relationships before your wife with women or? No, no, she was actually the first relationship I had. I mean, looking back, I wish I would have like, I wish I would have dated men and women because when you, since I didn't, there's always sort of this like, what if?
00:14:40
Speaker
somewhere, and not what if I would have married a man, but there's always this wondering or this, I don't know. Yeah, we met, we worked together for a while first, and so I knew her quite well, and. How old were you? I was 24 when we got married, I believe. And how long had you known each other? A couple years. My brothers and her brothers were good friends,
00:15:07
Speaker
So so I had known her family for a while. And before we got married, I did. I mentioned to her. I think I probably framed it in a way that led her to believe that my attraction to men was in the past. So for her 10 years into our marriage, it came as a real shock when I was actually I was processing things with a counselor and
00:15:31
Speaker
actually was getting to a place where I was accepting that part of myself and I came out to her in a more articulate way that was authentic to me at that time and it was like it pretty much our I had serious questions if our marriage would survive that time just because
00:15:55
Speaker
There was just a lot of trust issues and the feeling that I had not been authentic with her for all these years and what was actually true and like what isn't true and what are the implications and am I holding you back from a life that you'd rather have? And so yeah, so we sort of struggled with that and it's actually been a conversation we continue to have.
00:16:20
Speaker
It's not easy. So that's when I came out to her and then I slowly came out to my kids and The faith community I was a part of my kids. It was interesting my Youngest son was it was really sort of a special Thing we watched a movie together where there was a queer character who had like Catholic parents and really like
00:16:44
Speaker
sort of trying to beat the gay out of him. And then after the movie, I sat down with my son and I said, you know, that kid and how he grew up and how sort of felt about himself, I said, I felt like that as a kid a lot. And he just looked at me and just gave me a big hug and he's like, oh, I love you, dad. And it was not what I was expecting because, I mean, he was in, I think he was in middle school at the time and he was using these homophobic
00:17:11
Speaker
words every once in a while and I was like, what's he going to say? But I wanted to tell him before I came out more publicly.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah. Those first 10 years of the marriage before you kind of came out again in a different way that landed differently. What what were those 10 years like in terms of how was the marriage for for you and her and like what changed in you to get to the point where you wanted to come out in that different way? They were rough years. So we were actually not living in the US at the time. So
00:17:48
Speaker
We had very little sort of community that we were connecting with and we were having children at the same time. So that's when two of our sons were born.
00:18:00
Speaker
And looking back, both of us were dealing with a lot of depression and a lot of, and for me, a lot of it was about pushing down part of myself. And we really held onto each other during that time, I mean, through it all. And so I felt like it really solidified our relationship in a way because we were kind of all each other had during this time.
00:18:26
Speaker
And so towards the end of that 10 years, I started actually meeting with a counselor and that really helped me to articulate like, how is this actually influencing my mental health to actually be pushing this down and pushing this down? And how is it impacting my relationship in not so positive ways? Like how am I not able to be there for my partner because of the energy I'm spending pushing this down?
00:18:52
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. And what was it like afterwards? So it was kind of ironic because I finally was at a healthy enough place. And I think it was good that I was there within myself that I could come out to her. I wasn't really anticipating. I thought, well, I'm in a healthy place, so she should be too. Yeah, you can't predict other people and how well, you know, that's that's life. So
00:19:20
Speaker
Um, when it was extremely difficult and devastating for her, I knew that that I really wanted to hold on to what we had in our relationship. And so, and I knew it wasn't going to happen living overseas. So we moved back. We both spent time. We did some mutual counseling, which was not helpful basically because they saw me as a problem to be fixed in order for the marriage to be better.
00:19:49
Speaker
Yeah, it was coming from a definite perspective that saw my bisexuality as the problem. And so that wasn't helpful at all for our marriage. And so we've moved back about 10 years ago, so it's been about 10 more years.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah. I think the concerns you mentioned and maybe others that your wife had are probably similar to some concerns that other wives might have if their husband comes out as bi. Like, am I enough for you? Am I holding you back from something you want? Like, what did you say to her when she was concerned about those things or like, you know, what do you think about those concerns? Yeah. So my counselor handed me two books on
00:20:35
Speaker
that was just full of biographies of people, bisexual men. And so she picked up one and she was reading it. Well, if you do that, you see everybody's experience and you think, oh, is that what my husband wants or this? And so that, I mean, often people's, at least in conservative culture that I grew up in, if they think bisexual, their only reference to bisexuality is porn. And so they think like, what do you call it? A threesome. I was going to say a trinity, but
00:21:05
Speaker
religious language. A holy trinity. I actually like that euphemism for a threesome. There is something quite holy about it. So anyways, so there was there's that whole thing, like, and then there's the idea of, I mean, some people open their marriage, some people open one side of their marriage. And so the most authentic that we are with each other and the
00:21:33
Speaker
The best we communicate with each other, that's when we are able to be more connected. And that allays the fears. It may not solve everything, but at least you know what the field looks like. You know what you're working with. You're not thinking, oh, does he want this? Or is she thinking I'm doing this? And so you're not trying to read each other's minds. And the more open you can be, the better.
00:22:02
Speaker
Right. Well, you mentioned, and I forgot to restate it, but that one of her big concerns was like, is this real? If you're hiding this from me for that long, what else is there? Right. My brother-in-law actually came out as gay, and for him, and he was in a marriage, and for him, he left
00:22:24
Speaker
and was still involved with his kids and raising his kids and everything and it was I mean it's a it turned out quite well but for her that was sort of a story that she was thinking well is that actually the case is that actually going to be our story as well because it's so easy to transpose what you see happening with other people
00:22:42
Speaker
to your own story and to be in the moment and to be present to her but also to my own desires is sort of this tension that is just not going away but to live in it is better than not and then to repress it.
00:22:57
Speaker
Right. So now you're like more publicly out. I mean, you're doing this podcast. I know you're you're out sort of in your communities. Yeah. Like, how did you get to that point? And what's that like today? And also like for your wife, where is she with this today?
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah, so my wife is an introvert, but in a way she has been quite open about her processing. She actually started a blog about being the wife of a bi guy and her processing that our whole, like her side of the whole thing. And I'm, I'm her editor, so I get to, I get to see her process very closely.
00:23:39
Speaker
And sometimes I learn things that I didn't know. So, okay, so coming out was, for me, one of the biggest fears was losing community. And then particularly growing up in a very tight-knit faith community, that means a lot because it's all you really know. And so I think in a journey towards being more authentic, I decided to go to an event for men put on by the Mankind Project. And during that weekend,
00:24:08
Speaker
I actually didn't know what was going to happen there. I thought it might have to do with my sexuality or something, but it was actually me wrestling with identity issues beyond that and my faith. And I came back from there very changed my whole perspective and giving myself a lot more grace. And my wife actually saw this change in me. She said, you know,
00:24:29
Speaker
you're so different what's what's up with this and she said would you be i mean why don't why don't you come out so it was actually her suggestion and for me she told me she'd asked me a couple times earlier but this is the first time i really remembered her saying that and i was like yeah
00:24:46
Speaker
Why not? And so I came out that weekend and I had a lot of affirmation. I had some very concerned people DMing me, worried about my soul.
00:25:02
Speaker
The rumors started about threesomes that I was involved in in that community and I was like, wow, I didn't know about these. These trinities. That's the worst scenario is if everyone thinks you're having all these threesomes but you're really not. You get blamed for it but you don't get to enjoy it.
00:25:23
Speaker
Right, right, yeah. And actually, for me, that's not even part of my fantasy, which is funny. Speaking of that, is monogamy something you have discussed in your marriage? Has that shifted over time, that discussion? Yeah, so when we got married, that was our understanding. And then as I came to understand my bisexuality, I began to question some of those, I mean, that
00:25:51
Speaker
institution and so my wife and I have had that discussion and it's been it's not it's not been easy like and we're committed to being together and I I don't ever see that changing I want to grow old with my wife so I don't know if what the what would happen if we decided that an open marriage would be an option but I
00:26:19
Speaker
I don't want it to be an option if it's something that would endanger what we have together as partners and husband and wife. Sounds like there's a lot of love there and a lot of history and connection actually built from maybe times that you struggled. Right, right. I think for me, one of the things that I love about what we have is that we can laugh together.
00:26:47
Speaker
And I think just humor can cover so much and it can, I mean, just, and the shared history only adds to that. Yeah. Do you have any advice for other bi men who are in a similar situation or get thinking about getting into a long-term committed relationship? I mean, communication is sort of bedrock and practicing those skills
00:27:14
Speaker
no matter what the feelings are. And also for me, one of the most important things for me or helpful things for me was to find queer community that especially because I'm in a heteronormative marriage, I don't really have natural places where I'm meeting with other bi or gay men. And so for me to be intentional about that has been so good because I feel seen in ways that I don't feel seen in other spaces.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah. So that's awesome. Cool. Well, thank you for sharing your story and thanks for being here on
Guest Story: Renee from Chicago
00:27:49
Speaker
Two Bye Guys. Awesome. Thank you. Our next interview is with Renee from Chicago. Enjoy. Hi, welcome back. I'm here now with Renee. Welcome to Two Bye Guys, Renee. Thank you for having me again, Robert.
00:28:05
Speaker
Yeah, so Renee is another person that I interviewed for my oral history project. So Renee, I already know you identify as bisexual, I believe, but why don't you tell us, like, how did you realize that? What was your development like toward this identity? I would say it started
00:28:24
Speaker
maybe around five, maybe four years old. I remember watching TV with men on TV without their shirts. And I remember standing up and looking at the TV trying to see if I could see further down. Of course, TV, nothing really there to see. You know, I could see that at a very young age. I was just very curious at the male body.
00:28:45
Speaker
Same with a women's body, you know, so it was back and forth never really questioned myself at that young of a young of an age I just figured it was it was normal normal for me to be curious and As you got a little older was it did you struggle with that? I would say yes once I started getting into puberty It's when I struggled a little bit more
00:29:08
Speaker
I tried to hide it throughout my high school year. I was very curious seeing boys as much as girls back then. I remember fighting the urges, sometimes even praying that I was straight, but to the point where it ruined my day or a relationship, I would say no, no. In the culture you grew up in or was your family religious or how did that affect it?
00:29:36
Speaker
Oh yeah, my parents are both Catholic. I am first generation. My parents are both from Mexico. That's actually a funny question because my mom and I have talked recently about very little, very little topics about my sexuality. I remember as a young child our neighbors, I didn't know, but he sensed that there was something different about him.
00:29:58
Speaker
He was very into Boy George back in the 80s. I just remember little bits of that here and there. Like I said, recently I asked my mom, my mom, sorry, my mom, I asked me, you know, why did you wait so long? Why didn't you come out earlier? And I thought, well, you know what? I always wanted to be the good boy. That was a good, my thing was being the good boy to my parents, the good kid.
00:30:18
Speaker
There was my mom and I would talk, and she said, you know, if you're gay, it's okay. And I'm like, oh, of course I would deny it. My dad would make comments every now and then if I dyed my hair blonde, which that was a thing back in the late 90s, early 2000s, I would paint my nails black around Halloween only a couple of times. That was kind of the thing, the curl was out, you know, the whole Gothic, Marilyn Manson thing. So I did little things here and there, but my dad would make little comments.
00:30:46
Speaker
He never said, you know, if you're gay, I'm going to kick you out of the house or this is going to happen to you. But just the little comments made me uncomfortable. So I really didn't want to explore that side.
00:31:01
Speaker
It was never seen either as a taboo, as my family had a couple friends that were mainly women, mainly women that were lesbian. I'm not sure if you mentioned this before, but I just found out that one of my aunts had passed away. My mom's second oldest sister, she was actually bisexual. And one of our pretend aunts, we call her aunt, but she wasn't her blood related. That was kind of her girlfriend. But I don't know if they had anything going on while my aunt was married to my uncle.
00:31:30
Speaker
But I found out that after she passed away, there were love letters from my pretend aunt to my blood related aunt. Interesting. Yeah. So I'm like, wow, there was actually some of my family that's bisexual. But it was never, it wasn't made to seem like it was okay for me to come out and say it. So of course I hid it. I wanted to be the straight son, the good son and try to live this life and in the straight life.
00:31:58
Speaker
So then how did that affect your relationships that you had in school and stuff? Did you date women? Did you ever explore anything with men? I actually did explore with one of my childhood friends about right around puberty. I think we were, I was possibly a freshman. He was a little bit younger than me, but we grew up together as little kids and the whole, you know, oh yes, I'm going through puberty and
00:32:24
Speaker
you know I'm getting hair where normally I don't get hair do you want to see mine you show me you show me yours I'll show you mine pretty much uh thing I dated women all through my marriage yeah I never had a boyfriend I never had a even behind clothes which I was never exploring with other boys or other males except except for my friend who was a couple times and that I was pretty much
00:32:51
Speaker
Was I interested? Yes, of course I was. But again, I was in the closet in high school. I didn't want to explore. Everybody knew when my friend said that. When did you get the memo? I'm like, what kind of knew I was, but I didn't want to explore it. I was trying to stick and be straight. Right. So then tell us how did you meet your wife and what was the trajectory of your relationship?
00:33:17
Speaker
So we were classmates in band. I was a year ahead of her. We didn't officially date till the year she graduated high school. I had a big crush on her. Then I went to college. I didn't go away, but I stayed around and we were kind of friends for a little bit. And then interests came back up and we've decided to date. So she's the longest relationship I had. And I did express to her before that she saved me from being gay.
00:33:47
Speaker
I guess with falling in love and everything that fell out, we forgot about that. But I was always still curious about a male. So when you said that to her before you got married that she saved you from being gay? Right after we started dating pretty much. So way ahead, yes.
00:34:08
Speaker
Oh, and was that like sort of your way of coming out and expressing that dirt? Did you ever say anything else after that? Or once you said that it was out of mind? Pretty much. That was out of mind. I said it. It wasn't really a coming out. It was like, well, I thought
00:34:24
Speaker
I was going to be saved by dating her. I don't know if that's the right word.
00:34:42
Speaker
Together and this is your ex-wife now, right? How did that go in terms of your bisexual identity through the marriage? Like was that something you struggled with? When did you end up talking about it again and why if you did? Let's see this backtrack. So of course the internet access to
00:35:02
Speaker
pornography, access to back then AOL chats, Yahoo chats. I was talking to men or looking at pornography, usually they're straight or gay. It wasn't really, I would say it didn't really affect
00:35:18
Speaker
my relationship toward or with her. The only thing was when it was just myself of course I had time to explore or fantasize about being with the man. I'm just trying to think because we were together for 20 plus years
00:35:35
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. Since 98. Wow. It didn't really start affecting me more until right before we got engaged, she would find pornography on the computer. I would tell her, hey, no, it's our roommate. It's our roommate because the computer was kind of in a... The computer was in our roommate slash friend's room where he'd spent a couple of days out of the week.
00:36:03
Speaker
I would blame him for it and eventually one day I did leave a Yahoo chat room open and she saw that I was talking to some guys and she confronted me. Again, this is before we got engaged and I confess to her, yes, I'm bisexual. Actually, she found the email. Somehow I left my computer open and she found the email that I was trying to meet up with the guy. And I was just looking to meet him just to talk. No sex, just play tonic.
00:36:31
Speaker
And we kind of broke up for a day or two. So it was always in back of her mind. So it kind of started affecting her, I believe, mentally. Sexually it didn't really affect me because I was satisfied being with her. Yet every now and then I would, you know, take my time or my alone time to watch porn.
00:36:53
Speaker
So to me it was all mental and we never talked about it. It was just what we did Sorry, we talked about it when she found it and that was it. We never sat down She never suggested me going to see a counselor. So we kept moving we kept moving forward. We had kids I Continue to watch gay porn Once smartphones came along, of course that became a lot easier as well
00:37:21
Speaker
Again, my alone time was me fantasizing about men. When it came down to her and I'm in the bedroom, it was just her and I, no one else. Not towards the end of our marriage where we kind of opened the marriage and we started exploring ourselves separately. Tell us about that.
00:37:40
Speaker
Right before my last, my five-year-old was born, I did step out of the marriage. The marriage started becoming very dull. I repeat over and over again words, you wake up, go to work, get the kids, cook dinner, go to sleep. So it became a cycle. This marriage just became very, very dull after a while.
00:38:01
Speaker
I wanted something different, a little bit of excitement. No, I don't want to say something, sorry, something a little bit different. So I got on one of the apps, I met a guy, and I was truthful with them saying, hey, I'm married. That's what's going on. Let's be friends. Friends led to something else. I had an affair with them. I don't know if that was me just
00:38:25
Speaker
wanting to explore more of my other sexuality or it was just dull. It was just a routine, sex became a routine. I don't know. I don't really have an answer for that one there. I think that's very hard to unpack because I mean, it could be both to some degree and it's hard to say, well, if I had had those experiences earlier in life, would I then not have needed to explore? But who knows? I mean, some people might, some people might not.
00:38:55
Speaker
Right, right. So, um, she found that I was having an affair later on, six months, seven months after, I believe. We kind of took a couple weeks breaks. She got an app, started talking to guys, and we both said, well, why not give it a try? Let's open the marriage.
00:39:15
Speaker
We had actually gone to counseling and we seemed to have reconnected. To me, I felt we were reconnecting. It felt like a whole new life with her. We were happy. And like I said, we opened the marriage a couple months after that. We wouldn't buy, of course, other men to the bedroom.
00:39:38
Speaker
then eventually I started going on my own, she started going on my own. I was, I felt like a teenager, you know, having fun. We were both having fun, yet we were still coming back to each other. And then unfortunately,
00:39:54
Speaker
it started crumbling apart. And we decided to separate, divorce. Sometimes it was difficult. It was difficult. I mean, think about it right now. Just wanting to, you have your partner there, but yet you're more satisfied with pleasing yourself. You know,
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah. Like I've felt sometimes when I've been in an open relationship, being with someone else makes me then more excited when I go back to my partner as opposed to less. Did you find that? I think what excited me more was the fact that, hey, I could actually go on and hang out with the guys.
00:40:33
Speaker
It was exciting to have sex with men. I was able to do it freely without hiding it. But to me, it was more where, hey, I'm at the bar with the guys. That's something that I was missing. So to me, the male bonding is exciting.
00:40:52
Speaker
These one-night stands they're usually disappointing Like I might go okay. I'm having a little bit fun. You know, but I know what I have at home I know what I'm gonna go home. I know I'm gonna be satisfied would I would mean my former partner compares like you could have a
00:41:10
Speaker
I'm going to go out and get Little Caesars, which is like five, six dollars. But yet I know coming home, I can get this awesome pizza, which is going to satisfy me, satisfy all those cravings. Yet for some odd reason, for some odd reason, I'm still craving that Little Caesars five dollar pizza, which is good, but it's not amazing.
00:41:30
Speaker
Yeah, would you have done anything differently if you could or do you look back and think this was going to happen eventually no matter what or how do you see it? I think if we if I did not have step out of the marriage, eventually it would have have gone down on the marriage. It seemed that yeah, yeah, it seemed that there was something missing for both of us to work it out. The kids weren't going to
00:41:57
Speaker
keep us happy, even though we were known as a Disney family. We were known as the happy family, the mom and the father and the three kids always traveling back and forth. Yeah, I don't think it could have been saved. I think I would have been willing to stay in the marriage, but it wasn't going to be a happy marriage.
00:42:20
Speaker
So do you think you made the right decision and like what's what's going on in your life now in terms of relationships, dating, friendship, sex? I mean, unfortunately, it was a dark moment for myself going through all this through the marriage, through the separation, through the divorce. And it's finally I could say I'm finally at the point where I don't beat myself up for it anymore. Feelings for her as
00:42:47
Speaker
a lover. They're not there anymore. I had a rough time I think up to a few months ago where I did not want to talk to her. I did not want to really see her even I wanted to have a good co-parenting relationship. I think I made it very difficult but I think now I could say I'm
00:43:06
Speaker
majority i am fine i'm okay um i was actually dating somebody six months i believe or seven months after the separation so i did date my first same-sex partner which was great to a certain degree there were some key things that were missing on both of our ends which we've officially decided to
00:43:27
Speaker
move as friends, which we enjoyed that a lot. Our friendship, our bonding, we did a lot of hiking, especially with COVID. A lot of spending time together, a lot of guy things, which to me that's one of the key things that I enjoyed it. What I was looking forward to was having a guy friend and at the same time I had a partner
00:43:53
Speaker
It was great. It wasn't nothing different from being with a woman, aside from anatomy parts. And, you know, just everybody's different. Everybody's personality, likes, dislikes are different. A little bit that I would say, because he is African American, a little bit of the culture, it's hard to understand.
00:44:18
Speaker
since he was bisexual. There's a bad reputation in the African American community for bisexual black men. And then with everything that was going on around June, July, the racial issues. And I think he was a little bit more, he's out, his family knows.
00:44:39
Speaker
But he's a little bit private and with his life and certain things he was a little bit scared, especially like in public. I am comfortable, but he was a little bit more private when it came to holding hands and stuff like that. And it kind of bothered me sometimes, but I grew to respect him, respect his privacy.
00:45:06
Speaker
Was it nice to date another bisexual person? Was there like an understanding there or did it not matter? I don't know if I should even say this, but from what I've been told and I'm not sure, you probably heard, maybe you have heard that bisexual lovers are the best. Yeah, of course. That's a fact. And I've honestly had better experiences with bisexual men.
00:45:32
Speaker
than gay men. I don't discriminate. So you found that to be true. Yes. I don't discriminate, but that's not what I'm going to look for. You know, another partner and a future partner. It's all on the person, not their sexuality. Cool.
00:45:49
Speaker
Do you have any advice for other bisexual men who are dating women married to a woman thinking about getting married? One thing is there is help out there. It's hard to find to what I've told people. I actually have a friend who's married older than myself. I think he's mid to late 40s.
00:46:12
Speaker
in a sexless marriage. He's happy to a certain degree, but he's not. So of course he's on a deal, down low out there. And I told him, you know, talk to your wife, talk to her. You don't have to, I know it sounds bad, but bring up the fact that, hey, I'm not satisfied sexually. I always believe in being honest. I know it's hard to come out because a lot of people do not understand the bisexuality part, but being honest with yourself.
00:46:42
Speaker
You know, I know for myself. I was not happy a hundred percent It was something I struggled something you have to hide not only from your partner but from family friends at the same time I Can tell people I'm the same person. I'm the same person from yesterday from today. I'll be the same person tomorrow Regards of who I date regardless of what I do. I'm the same person. I'm running. I'm not gonna change for you. I
00:47:11
Speaker
That's so nice. I felt this I felt I was so scared of that before I came out that I would be some different person and I had the same experience as you as like, oh, nothing really changed. I just don't have to hide this part.
00:47:25
Speaker
right right cool um i know you all now you're very out there you're out on social media you have a blog do you want to direct people to your video blog yeah sure it's on uh youtube it is under 773 shy guy that is c h i g u y hopefully i'll be adding some more stuff but yes
00:47:46
Speaker
Well, this will give you some incentive. So if anyone wants to learn more about Renee's story, go there on YouTube. Great, thanks Renee. Thanks for being here. Thank you Rob. And now here's our final interview featuring a bisexual couple, Howard and Elizabeth from New York. Enjoy.
Guest Story: Howard and Elizabeth
00:48:09
Speaker
So hello. Welcome, Howard and Elizabeth. I'm here with another couple that I interviewed for my oral history project. Welcome, Howard and Elizabeth. Hi. Hi. Thank you. So let's start with you, Howard. Why don't you just tell us, like, what label do you use? Do you identify as bisexual or something else? And like, when did you realize that about yourself? I don't know if I call myself bisexual. I'm bisexual. I just don't know if I call myself that. I mean, I just like everybody.
00:48:39
Speaker
Every gender, every body, every whatever. Probably I realized I was bi when I was like seven or eight. How did you realize then? You just had thoughts and you recognized them? No, but I would play with girls and boys at the same time. So we'd play doctor, we'd play cards, we'd play things that had
00:49:05
Speaker
Like if you lost, you'd have to show something or do something. And so it was about boys and girls and looking at boys and girls. And did it ever like cause any confusion or discomfort or were you always comfortable with it? Comfortable. It was just another outlet, another sexual thrill.
00:49:30
Speaker
Cool, good for you. Okay, so let's hear from Elizabeth's basically same question before we get into how you met. You identify as bi as well or what word do you use and how did you realize that and when? I go by the term or label bisexual and I really came to terms with it when I was in college. I look back and I'm like, oh,
00:49:59
Speaker
You know, I drew boobs with a friend of mine or a boy in class in second grade, you know, and I like that, you know, so there's little things. And so there were signs which I didn't really connect and having crushes on, you know, girls. There were things that I look back now, I'm like, oh, you know, that makes sense. So it wasn't really prevalent until I went was able to get away from my parents and my family and all of that construct and go to college and be around people who were
00:50:29
Speaker
in the same similar situation. And then from there, I just explored physically and mentally my sexuality. And it took me a while to kind of be comfortable with it. But I knew who I was. And now it's just part of me. It's who I am. I'm a bisexual woman. And when did you start coming out? And how out were you in college or beyond?
00:50:59
Speaker
Oh, I was so out and I was very active on campus with our group. I was in the forefront. I was on panel discussions as being, you know, the bisexual representation. So I was out, really, really out. I mean, all my friends, all my family knew and it was like in the forefront of my life.
00:51:26
Speaker
Cool. And actually, let me go back to Howard for a second. Did you have a moment where you started coming out to people or was this just something that was part of you but you didn't talk about in that way until more recently? Right. Generally, that was the way. It was part of me, but, you know, I mean, it's sex to sex, but you don't really talk about that. It's not really out there for us, especially younger.
00:51:53
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't, I didn't come out, I'm not like Elizabeth, where that was big in the 90s. I'm a child of the 60s and 70s, you didn't come out that way. I mean, I know in the younger terms now, queer is the word. Queer back in our day was not a good word. So, we didn't come out that way and I didn't come out.
00:52:15
Speaker
Only until recently when we've been to certain places and with similar minded people. Did you find a lot of similar minded people back then who also didn't come out but were similar to you? Yes. Lots of guys who, well they didn't think they were straight but they didn't believe that they were something else other than straight. And now I find a lot of guys who are married
00:52:44
Speaker
who don't think of themselves as bi, whose partners don't know they're bi, but they'll have sex with guys anyway. Yeah. I think that category of men is so much bigger than anyone realizes. Okay, so why don't you guys tell me how you met whoever would like to tell the story?
00:53:07
Speaker
So we have a friend who has parties, basically play parties. So I then was interested because I actually had been in the lifestyle for a few years, maybe almost 10, 15 years prior to this with the previous person.
00:53:30
Speaker
By the lifestyle, you mean the swinger? Swinger, correct. Where I would play with, typically we would play with, since we were a heterosexual couple, we would play with other male-female couples. But I would then play with other women as well.
00:53:47
Speaker
during that time. So I was exposed to that so I was interested in going to this party so I went out there found out it was not just a play party but a bi-play party which was even more interesting for me. So I went out there to the party and happened to, it was my first time, happened to see Howard come in.
00:54:14
Speaker
as I like to say, he sauntered in, you know, from across the room, I remember seeing him. And my impression was like, Oh, interesting. And but then I got sidetracked playing with someone else. So we didn't end up meeting and connecting until later on in the party. I
00:54:35
Speaker
don't know how far you want to get into details. Well, she was watching the other guys who were entertaining themselves with each other as opposed to her. And so I just sort of moved myself in and said hello and introduced myself to her.
00:54:53
Speaker
There was an open moment, let's say, where he, uh, and one thing led to another. So, so you, you met at a by play party. Right. Yeah. And so you were essentially out to each other without even saying anything. Is that how you felt at the time? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if Howard truly identified himself at that time.
00:55:20
Speaker
But I was fluent. He was there and would play, but I don't think he technically defined it at that time. So I was like, all right, cool, whatever. And we would talk and we hit it off, obviously. But for me, I was like, oh, we're just going to hang out. I met him at a party. There's going to be nothing serious. I had no thoughts or intentions of it going anywhere.
00:55:49
Speaker
So we were then, after the party was over, we stayed in contact. So we texted each other, probably texted too a little bit, but ended up- A lot. A lot. Ended up going on a date.
00:56:07
Speaker
So we were already in bed. Then we went on a date a few days later. That's a good order. Right. Exactly. But the advantage was we didn't have to come out to each other. We didn't have to see how we were in bed. We now had to get to know each other in other ways.
00:56:24
Speaker
Right. You sort of had broken the ice in multiple ways right away. Right. Right. So we did a reverse. So, so we went to dinner, had a really nice dinner, trying to just go back to the dating part. So that was just for a couple of weeks. And then we just really clicked and I would say, you know,
00:56:46
Speaker
Within literally two, maybe three weeks, we were already dating and ironically enough, my parents visited. So he met my parents about a month or so in when we met. And it just was a whirlwind from there. Then a couple months later, we went and picked out a ring. We got engaged in April and got married the following September. So in less than a year, we got married. She worked fast. Yes.
00:57:13
Speaker
And how long have you been married? Five years. Five years less, September. Cool. So I guess, I mean, many men have this experience of like having this secret and like, when do I tell the person, but you never even really had that experience. It sounds like you were open about that with most people you dated. Well, since the first one, since after the first marriage after that, it's, you know, you're, you're in the lifestyle, you are more open and free about it.
00:57:43
Speaker
I mean, a lot of guys aren't because they're afraid of repercussions or being turned down or whatever. But if you're straightforward and they're into it, it's okay. Were you out to your first life about this stuff? No. Uh-huh. So did it feel different then to be in that relationship versus this one in terms of that? Well, in that relationship, prior to marriage, we had a nice sex life. After marriage,
00:58:12
Speaker
that went downhill. And so for a long time, I didn't have any sex with my first wife. So I was out with whatever was around. Interesting. Okay. And so now, so then you guys got married, you've been married for five years. Do you still go to these parties? Do you have an open relationship or a non-monogamous relationship? How does that work? We still go to parties. When COVID stops, we'll go back. I wouldn't call it
00:58:41
Speaker
open relationship because we go to parties together and play with other people. I mean we don't have to be in the same room but generally we go at the same place and so it might be a different room but you know I wouldn't call it an open relationship where she goes out on dates and I go on dates but
00:59:00
Speaker
But open in the fact that we are with other people sexually. But we always end up going home together. It's never... Kind of what we say is that we're not polyamorous, we're not in it for the relationships and the dating and of other people. It's more of a physical thing with others for the sex, the enjoyment of that. But we leave it there. I mean, we're monogamous.
00:59:26
Speaker
emotionally together, but not physically. We're ethical, non-monogamous. I think I said it correctly this time. So that's what we are. And ever since we first met, the whole time we were together, we've been going to parties and meeting up with other people, other couples and stuff.
00:59:49
Speaker
But being an out by couple and we have met a lot of people who are also either both by or maybe one party is by, but then they're both. The other person is accepting of it. Would you say that sex is important for you in your relationship?
01:00:09
Speaker
Yeah, okay. I don't know why he looks at me in my ass. Yeah, okay. Yes. But I feel like there's no pressure around it because we both enjoy it. I mean, I can't speak for you, but for me, I feel like I'm very, especially with him, I'm much more open with sex and my sexuality and more comfortable.
01:00:32
Speaker
being with a partner because i had a previous partner and it wasn't it wasn't good you know and i think my being bi was more of a show for him which is you know getting gets into the whole other you know stereotype of being a bisexual woman but now i know there's enjoyment in the fact that
01:00:50
Speaker
He enjoys me because then he knows I'm enjoying myself. Does that make sense? It's not for the visual like, oh, oh, she's with another woman. Oh, look at that. It's just I, you know, that's a part of it. But also the fact that he knows that I'm enjoying it. And that's the same for him. When I watch him, I enjoy watching that because I know that's something he enjoys.
01:01:10
Speaker
And it's just hot. And I'm the first one to say. Oh see, I say it's wrong. She says it's okay. I understand you're looking at it because I don't want to. Two girls doing it together is hot. But the thing is with him looking and seeing me with another woman or seeing two women, I know he appreciates it and he's not objectifying it as like it's done in porn. And where a lot of men who enjoy it
01:01:34
Speaker
take it just at that level. Instead of just like, oh, look at those women, they're enjoying themselves, the beautiful part of it. It's we both understand bisexuality. I obviously cannot understand what it's like to be a man who's bisexual. You know, so I can't go that, but at least there's somewhat of a mindset where he knows where I'm coming from. Yeah. Do you think that understanding of bisexuality sort of has helped you to connect as a couple? I think so.
01:02:05
Speaker
I understand her bisexuality. Right, that aspect. Me and the person? That's automatic, but as a woman and as a partner in the marriage, it's like any marriage or any partnership between two people.
01:02:22
Speaker
Right. I mean, we're still two people together, but we just both happen to be bi. That doesn't change. Right. And, you know, we have another level of where we go, and we have sex with other people. But, you know, that brings in a lot of
01:02:38
Speaker
We need to communicate, make sure we're not jealous, trust, those things that we need to have between us before we can do it. If there's an issue with something, a situation, we're both like, okay, as an issue, we walk away. It's not like, oh, I'm gonna do this and you're just gonna do whatever. We're in this together. How do you guys make sure there's no jealousy? How do you communicate about it?
01:03:06
Speaker
Because I know she's going home with me, it doesn't matter. She ain't going with somebody else, she's going with me. But if something comes up, occasionally it does. You know, we are able to say, like, if there's an issue, like, how are we feeling? Are you okay? Or some of it is, you know, if I say, and I don't want to play with someone, I'm like, okay, go ask, go ask him if it's okay.
01:03:28
Speaker
Which automatically tells me she doesn't want to play with him so I say no. Let me just play devil's advocate for a second. Doesn't seeing your partner have sex with other people make you feel less connected to them or like your relationship with them is diminished in some way? No. No. I actually enjoy it because I know he's enjoying himself and I enjoy watching it because I'm an exhibitionist and a voyeur.
01:03:59
Speaker
And I love watching sex. And there's something that's so beautiful about it, if it's, you know, whatever gender together, you know, men, men, women, women, you know, non-binary, you know, whatever, it's just, it's, there's something about that energy and just the act itself, which I love and I think is beautiful. And a lot of times after we have, we go to a party and we play and we're with other people,
01:04:26
Speaker
When we're back together, the energy that we have together, we talk about it and like, oh, do you see that? Did you do that? And it makes our connection, our sex really intense and really hot because, you know, for me, that's just foreplay. I know that sounds ironic, but it's just kind of like the oh, that just kind of gets me going, you know, and, you know, we take it together and it's amazing hot sex because we've taken that and
01:04:57
Speaker
brought it to our relationship, our connection. Do you have any advice for other couples in a similar situation, either with one or both bi-partners or people thinking about non-monogamy? Make sure you communicate. That's very important, especially if you're married, a long lasting relationship. It shouldn't be something that you do to save a marriage. That's key. It shouldn't be for that. Talk to whoever you're going to
01:05:26
Speaker
be with so that they understand boundaries and what you're looking for or where you want to go with this. They may not be of the same mindset.
01:05:36
Speaker
I think it's something where both people have to be on the same page and aware what's going on and making sure that they both want to be in that place and open up the relationship. However that is, it works for them, whatever it is, because there's no
01:05:58
Speaker
Fixed idea of what it is or what works for everyone is just it's a personal choice and again Communication and making sure you know what your boundaries are and in the rules the guidelines going in and it takes time You know, it starts slow, you know, don't think you got to jump in feet first and do everything and everyone at once and
01:06:23
Speaker
You know, I mean, part of it is, is like, I think people feel like they're kids in a candy store. You know, oh my God, I could do this. And you know, like, you've opened that gate. And it's like the flood waters. But you have to be careful, because it can be overwhelming. And you want to take your time and make sure you're comfortable and your partner's comfortable. You know, because you're in this together. And you're doing this because you want to, and you want to enhance what you have and who you're with.
01:06:52
Speaker
And that's what it is. That's great. Thank you, Howard and Elizabeth, for joining me and for sharing your stories. And here's to many more years of a happy marriage for you two together. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Can't wait to see you when this is over. Yes. See you someday soon, hopefully. Exactly.
Invitation for Future Participation
01:07:13
Speaker
So those were some stories from real life by guys who are married to women. I hope you enjoyed them and got something out of it. I always find it so helpful to hear other people's stories, even if they're a little bit different from mine. There's always something I can pick up. I am continuing my oral history project. Thank you to everyone who's written in via social media.
01:07:34
Speaker
I try to respond to everyone. I know I've missed a few so I apologize, but I am still compiling everything and keeping a file for the future. So if you are a bi married guy and you have not reached out to me and you're interested in participating, feel free to connect with us on social media. Two bi guys on Instagram and Twitter are the best places.
01:07:55
Speaker
I cannot promise that I will include everyone. You should see how many messages I've gotten. It has proven to me that this is an important topic. But at the same time, I will not be able to get to everyone. But you never know, and I don't know what form the final project is taking, so I don't know how many people I'll need. It can't hurt, and I will reach back out to people when I can.
Season Conclusion and Future Plans
01:08:22
Speaker
And that is the end of season two of Two Buy Guys. I'm hoping to churn this out a bit faster next season, maybe a little less editing, a little more off the cuff. I'm also hoping to bring on some new voices, some guest hosts, so we can hear from an even wider variety of the buy and non-binary community.
01:08:43
Speaker
and also Alex, my co-host. He has been quite busy with his job at the Trevor Project this year, but hopefully we will hear more from him again next season. I expect that we will. We will now take a short hiatus as I prepare for all of that, book some new guests. In the meantime, please again share this podcast with your friends, family, anyone who might enjoy it. Give us a rating or a review if you can. It's very helpful.
01:09:10
Speaker
and get vaccinated as soon as you are able. Good luck to everyone re-entering normal society. Take care of yourselves. I encourage everyone to find some queer and bi community if you can and take care of each other too. So wishing you all the best and thanks for listening to this season of Two Bi Guys.
01:09:33
Speaker
Two Bye Guys is created and hosted by Alex Boyan and me, Rob Cohen. Our logo art was designed by Caitlin Leinman, and our music was composed and created by Ross Mintzer. Season 2 is executive produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and produced by Alex Boyan and Moxie Pung, with support from IFP. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.