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VOY: "Shattered" (s7e11)
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JAKOTAY OR CHANEWAY? Did we ever settle on the label for a Janeway-Chakotay relationship? Oh well, it hardly matters, since those two crazy kids are always on the fence about making a move. It all comes to a head in this time travel adventure from season 7 where a Janeway from just before the pilot finds herself becoming more and more attracted to a season 7 Chakotay even as he fills her in on the horrible fate that awaits her during her first command. Does this episode serve as a love letter to Star Trek: Voyager or something better? Will Bryan & Kristen TREK, MARRY, or KILL IT?
The grades begin at (22:15).
Don't forget! We're giving away a Blu ray box set of Star Trek: Discovery - The Complete Series. To enter, all you have to do is submit a poem about Discovery to our email: trekmarrykpod at gmail. We're accepting poems until 11:59pm PST on December 1, 2024. If we like your poem the best, we will send you the box set as a Thank You!
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Transcript
Star Trek Discovery Giveaway Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, Trekmarikill listeners, we're giving away Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set. A giveaway, Brian? That's generous. And what, pray tell, must one do to be given Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set? Why, Kristen, all people have to do is send us a poem about Star Trek Discovery. What about a limerick or a haiku? Those work, too. And any type of poetry about Star Trek Discovery works.
00:00:25
Speaker
Michael Burnham, she's our gal, and Sintilly is her pal. What are you doing? Are you trying to enter the giveaway? No, I would not be doing that because that would be a violation of the Federal Trade Commission guidelines, Brian. Good. Then you're giving the listeners a chance. You heard Kristin. If you think you've got a great poem about Star Trek Discovery, submit it to our email, treknarykbot at gmail dot.com. And if we like your poem best, we'll send you Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set.
00:00:54
Speaker
That's just a thank you. We're taking your poems into our inbox up until 11.59 PM Pacific Time, December 1st, because I'd like to be able to send this out to people by the holidays.
00:01:06
Speaker
There once was a captain named Lorca, whose love for Elon Musk made him sound like a dorka. Okay, you have your mission, listeners. Want a chance to receive Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set, just in time for the holidays? Then think up a great poem about Star Trek Discovery and email it to trekmerrykpod at gmail dot.com by 11.59pm pacific on December 1st, 2024. Would you trek, marry, or kill that last poem?
00:01:36
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill... Pot roast. Kazon. Time. Engage. Wednesday on an all-new Voyager. Sescra. An old enemy lusts for power. I'm in control of Voyager Star Trek Voyager. Wednesday at 9, 8 central on UPN.
00:02:04
Speaker
Trek. Mary. Kill.
Voyager Time Travel Episode Discussion
00:02:11
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Kristen. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a podcast where we judge episodes of Star Trek like a skeptical Captain Janeway being dragged across time. For the second week in a row, we're looking at an episode of Star Trek Voyager that serves as an inspiration for an episode of Star Trek Discovery we'll be reviewing next week. Basically, this is the second of two episodes.
00:02:31
Speaker
a Voyager wherein some character has to travel through time and the ship's history at the same time to solve some sort of timey-wimey problem. Last week it was because of a vengeful time traveler. This week it's because of a random anomaly of the space-time continuum, one of the most random anomalies I think Star Trek's ever done, but- Because it's never explained? Yes, and so space is enormous and it just so happens to appear right in front of there. You know, doing all these time episodes right back to back to back, I'm i'm so um i'm like, Jane, why am I fucking sick of it? Yeah, we've done quite a lot of time travel ah this season, surprisingly. We did mainly for predictions, but- Surprisingly, as if like,
00:03:15
Speaker
You picked all the episodes out of a hat like last season. It started this way. It was that, oh, I want to do predictions of our current time, which necessarily involves time travel. But the emphasis was on art, what they thought about our time period. Right. And so that was part of it. But these last two episodes in particular are just like, what if there was a time travel adventure?
00:03:37
Speaker
You know, it's good. So it's not really talking about our our thing. But yes, we are really playing out the string here on the time time travel stuff, really exposing the the limits of ah Brian doing theme months or pairing episodes. We're talking about Shattered. It's the 11th episode of Star Trek Voyager's seventh season. It premiered on the United Paramount Network, January 17, 2001, teleplayed by Michael Taylor from a story by Michael Sussman and Michael Taylor, directed by Terry Windell. They got two guys by named Michael and no women. That's right. ah had They, Lisa Klink might've moved on by this time. Yeah. they Very few women writing on Star Trek at this, even at this point in time, it was the nineties, you know, and Nope, still, still very few.
00:04:22
Speaker
ah Memory Alpha describes the episode, the Macroviruses, Dr. Chaotica, and and Janeway's attempt to restore Voyager to its normal state after a temporal distortion shifts sections of the ship into different timeframes. What Memory Alpha doesn't tell us is that we also get a glimpse of a future Voyager where Naomi Wildman has grown up to be a lieutenant and Borg teenager Echeb has grown up to be even more of a stiff somehow. Like you had a chance to cast someone new and you still cast an older guy who was as much of a stiff as teenage Echeb. Anyway, and he grows up to be the first officer of Borg.
00:04:59
Speaker
That's what they're not telling us. um It's one of those episodes that lots of TV shows do late in their runs, where they look back at where they've been. Sometimes they will just do ah this is like a clip show.
00:05:12
Speaker
in a way of like, remember this and remember that. But, and Chacote is actually doing that in this episode. He's doing a lot of like, this is the time he's taking Janeway through the history of Voyager. Cause it's Janeway from before the pilot or in the pilot and now Chacote in season seven. And he's kind of walking her through the history of the show. And it's something that a lot of shows do in their late, in their final seasons, which this is.
00:05:38
Speaker
So there's that. And Kristen, you had like an interesting before we started recording, you were like, what did people think of this episode? when
Fan Reception of 'Shattered' and Temporal Themes
00:05:44
Speaker
it I probably should have saved that conversation for when we were recording, but that's okay. Because Brian always says, do you have any questions? and I would say no. And this time I had a question.
00:05:54
Speaker
And he shows his record right then, but I can reiterate it. My question was, did fans of Voyager like this episode a lot when it aired as a nice piece of nostalgia looking back on the whole series? I have to imagine the fans did, but I wouldn't know because I was neither a fan of the show nor a viewer of this episode. and We don't have like a TV Guide review. I guess I could go and look for it. Cheers and jeers.
00:06:28
Speaker
If you know what I'm talking about, congratulations, and you should be contributing to your 401k. I just saw that the IMDB line says it's almost a clip show. I swear I did not have that. I did not read this before I said that. It is not even close to a clip show, but like, no, but okay. Because we've had Star Trek clip shows.
00:06:52
Speaker
Yes, but this this was them walking through. It was almost like a this is your life kind of thing. I have a review from like 2009. Although it was only, these are the horrible things that are going to happen to you. Yeah. We're going to get into that later. Okay, so I have a lot to say about that.
00:07:09
Speaker
Trek BBS 10 years ago, would this have made a good series finale? It's like a great last season episode. I don't know. These are all things. A series finale? Yeah. I don't think it would have been a good series finale. Oh, January 18th. It's in the perfect spot in the season for what it is. Even if it was like the last three episodes, I'd be like, no. Yeah. It's basically almost the midway point of the final season. Did you watch Tuvok die? Yeah.
00:07:38
Speaker
Come on. No, thanks. Okay, so January 18, 2001, on the website cynicscorner.org. Okay. by it Written by David E. Sluss. Interesting. I don't know if he's related to Michael Sussman. Yeah, it's like, gave it a 7.0, which is a C minus, according to his grading scale. The bottom line,
00:08:00
Speaker
This kind of episode to be a special event, excuse me, a major Star Trek event, but temporal anomalies and retrospectives are so common on Voyager that this episode can't really be anything but standard fare. So I guess if I'm thinking about it, a lot of fans at the time are drawing a connection to all good things, the finale of Next Generation, which kind of does do the same thing, right? Picard is the one like that's unstuck in time. He's jumping through different time periods. And that that's kind of what's going on here. And the temporal anomaly is actually Q trying to give humanity a chance. So I guess people are like, okay, this one's kind of like fine.
00:08:45
Speaker
yeah So there's there's one review. um But again, as a student or lover of TV, at least now we're in the streaming era. So the pre streaming era, I guess you could say, because I really have had a hard time keeping up with what TV is these days. And I'm not sure my brain as it's aging, grocks what's going on with TV. it's So, um but in any case, a fascinating look and an interesting um kind of example of before the internet being the internet that it is today, or even it was 10 years ago, they didn't have a memory alpha. They didn't even really have, it seems like a Bible to keep certain names and words and facts straight. Cause there's a lot of like slight inconsistencies in the facts, but again, it doesn't matter. They're all tired. It's the end of the run. Who cares? And I gotta put this out there.
00:09:35
Speaker
Because I don't know how much of Voyager you remember or watched, Kristen. I personally was not a fan of the Captain Proton stuff, the black and white stuff. Oh. I can venture, I guess. Why? Because it's bad.
00:09:52
Speaker
Well, it's it's B movie or serial stuff. And it's like, that stuff is bad. And if you were a child. It's not even, it's like, it's Batman TV show, but like even worse than that. Well, that was even kind of like making fun of the form of television, even making fun of the serial. Kid liked it. Yes. It was in on the joke a bit. This is, this I don't know what this is.
00:10:17
Speaker
This is an homage and um it's it's not fun. I've never enjoyed it, but so many Star Trek Voyager fans. I will say it's fine in the tiny, tiny amount that we get here because it is is recognized as completely stupid and ridiculous. They do a whole episode of it and I can remember at the time. I did not see that and I don't want to see it.
00:10:40
Speaker
I know, I just remember going like, I'm not going to like this. And then watching it and going like, I'm going to have to stand right next to the TV screen so I don't fall asleep.
Captain Proton and Nostalgia in Voyager
00:10:49
Speaker
A monochromatic environment. Yeah. Monochromatic. I can't go. It's cold, black and white. Thanks, Shikote. Shikote, Jesus. Robert Duncan McNeil was a big fan of that stuff because guess what? He was Captain Proton.
00:11:03
Speaker
So this is the third this episode has the third and final appearance of anything involving the proton stuff with Dr. Chaotica. He says in the Star Trek Voyager companion, personally, I would have liked to have done a lot more of Captain Proton, but I think the studio. producers I think the studio and the producers felt like we had done it. We had reached such a pinnacle with it that to go back would be kind of doing it a disservice and undermining the specialness of the Bride of Chaotic episode in particular. They were hesitant to go back for fear of ruining everyone's memories of it, but I would have loved it.
00:11:36
Speaker
I think Robert Duncan McNeil, that the studio and the network didn't just want to keep putting black and white on their TV screens in case viewers were flipping by channels. They didn't want to think they had stumbled across an old movie and changed the channel. um That's kind of my opinion that the black and white pastiche was um maybe fun to dip into but it's it harkens back to old and sci-fi serials of the 30s and 40s or whatever like i'm not sure who that's for i guess the 40s and 50s to be fair i think like the black and white resurgence that happened earlier than this
00:12:13
Speaker
This is 2001, right? Yeah, this was like the post tale of that. Yeah. This is like jumping in at the end of it. Post Edward. Post Schindler's List. That's right. Post people doing music videos on black and white. It was a thing people were doing and it was actually for a while more expensive to do it in black and white because not a ton of, they were making a ton of black and white film and you actually have to process black and white film differently.
00:12:41
Speaker
um Now, of course, you can just make it black and white and very few people shoot on film. But for a while, there was like this nostalgia in the early to mid 90s of shooting on black and white. And this is this is way past that. Yes. And also. We're not dealing with Spielberg here. OK, or ah what's his name? ah
00:13:11
Speaker
Tim Burton? Yes. Weird British dude, that long hair. Tim Burton's not British. She's from Burbank. What? Tim Burton was born and raised in Burbank. That's why his movies are about alienation and boredom.
00:13:25
Speaker
so
00:13:28
Speaker
He worked for Disney. He was a Disney animator. But he doesn't he live in? Of course. yeah OK. Yes. And he was big into European. Carter and you must be. Yeah, Monica. It's just like, oh my God. Yeah. But it's just like John Wayne being from Glendale, but he's like a cowboy or um um shit. Who's the guy, Sam with the mustache?
00:13:56
Speaker
Sam Elliott. It's like Sam Elliott who's from Sacramento. You know what I mean? Yeah. But there's, okay, there's a lot of like people actually own horses at least in Sacramento, not so much in Glendale.
00:14:09
Speaker
I also think it's funny to think like Blade Runner, one of our great movies, yeah American movies, just artistically made and all that stuff was shot in Burbank. You know, of course crazy shit. Of course. ah But now today, movies like that shoot in England. Right. that So that's just you would assume like they give them some kind of tax breakers. Right. Right. But even like Superman was shot like the original. know they like was shot no Also, you don't have to pay like the orchestra guild.
00:14:36
Speaker
And if you, yeah, if you do the London Philharmonic, you don't have to pay, AFM is the Orchestra Guild, and you actually have to pay like residuals to them. But if you go to London and use the London Philharmonic, you don't have to do that. Why? Because they're publicly funded? Because they're not under, they're not American. They're not American. They're not under the jurisdiction, just like SAG or WGA or whatever.
00:14:56
Speaker
So whenever they tout John Williams is leading the London Philharmonic or whatever, it's like very frustrating. Well, whenever you see a soundtrack was recorded in London, that's just a way to avoid guilds. So sorry. Sorry to hurt everyone's feelings or whatever. Just like streaming is just to avoid guilds. Like it's all, like any marvel is to avoid labor. Not paying for people. OK.
00:15:26
Speaker
So memory alpha notes on this episode, Shatter, Star Trek Voyager's 11th episode of season seven. Mike Sussman would go on to be a writer on Enterprise. He would be teamed up with, I think, Phil Strong was her name. They wrote a lot of Enterprise. And he was an intern on Voyager when he pitched this episode in the sixth season. And the original title was Shatterday.
00:15:47
Speaker
and Omar the 1980s Twilight Zone episode, I guess. But this episode was held over to season seven, obviously. But in between pitching that in season six and then this being a story that he wrote for season seven, he sold five. Sorry.
00:16:03
Speaker
He would sell five stories and write two teleplays for Voyager. And one reason for this delay, perhaps, was a lawsuit. A writing team claimed to have pitched a similar idea to a member of the Voyager writing staff and they received us a payout on the side. Star Trek was still doing some version of their open call for story ideas, I think at this time. And so that would get them in a lot of trouble. And that's eventually why they just shut it all down. um But Star Trek is a very tough show to come up with ideas for. So know I understand why they put that out there, but they also should have been like, right had a pot of cash. I think they did people. That's why they would they would just because that's why they just paid the price okay yeah because I'm like, I'm shocked that they actually just paid him off and we haven't heard about it since because usually they just go, I never heard anything. Yeah.
00:16:51
Speaker
Uh, the stardate given by the doctor in sick bay puts that timeframe shortly before the episode two, Vic.
00:16:59
Speaker
ah
00:17:05
Speaker
I mean, Chikote is such an asshole. He didn't like give that doctor a heads up, even though there's a temporal discontinuity, which we find out or it gets all fixed. It's just funny. It's like, it's like two weeks never happened. Like it didn't stick with Chikote at least. We're not going to talk about that.
00:17:24
Speaker
Like I said, there's like a lot of minor factual inaccuracies. Janeway says the crew compliments a certain number at the beginning when it clearly is not. you can catch If you catch it, it's like, yeah, those are inaccuracies. They didn't have the They didn't care. By the way, when no one and whenever anybody says a star date, you might as well just have any four random numbers or whatever. like I don't know what any of it means. In the original series, that was absolutely true. At some point in the next generation, it got formalized. No, I'm saying for me. Go for you personally. For me personally. Yeah. You could be saying anything.
00:18:02
Speaker
and doesn't mean like i if if If there's an episode where I need to actually pay attention to the star dates, I'm fucked. I don't know what's going to go on. Remember last week when we did ah Relativity, we went back to up before the pilot, basically, of Voyager, and I was like, it was our chance to see Stadi, and we got robbed.
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, she at least gets a girl ok obliquely mentioned in this one. She goes, my my home's been walked down the corridor and she disappeared. I'm like, we got a study reference. So at least they were they consistent there. um This was the first original Star Trek episode to air the 21st century.
Emmy Nomination for Voyager Episode
00:18:41
Speaker
January 17, 2001. I guess that's because you're Y2K. Yeah.
00:18:46
Speaker
um Well, this would be after Y2K. This would be a year after Y2K, because that was 2000. Oh, that was a one i never mind. Never mind. Never mind. Sorry. No, it's OK. It's because 2001 is the actual start of the 21st century yeah because of how they do the calendar. Year zero is not a year. like Year one is one year's past. Anyway, so that's how it works. The episode was nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Costumes for a Series. The other nominees in this category were because it did not win Sex and the City, which won the best comedy series that year, The Sopranos, Will and Grace, and a TV show called The Lot. And the winner...
00:19:26
Speaker
And the winner of this award was The Lot. What the fuck is The Lot? I didn't even know what that was. And it turns out that before Breaking Bad and before Mad Men, AMC was dipping into original programming from time to time, basically taking, I think what they were doing, even when they got Breaking Bad and Mad Men was like taking HBO castoffs, stuff that might've been developed for HBO, because this probably seems like it. So The Lot,
00:19:55
Speaker
was a TV show, a half hour single camera show that ran on AMC for two seasons, 17 episodes. And it was the synopsis on IMDb is inspired by real life Hollywood antics. The show centers on the stars and and employees at the fictional 1930s silver screen pictures movie studio. So basically hail Caesar or Babylon, but a sitcom.
00:20:18
Speaker
If you go to the IMDb page, you'll see a mustache gentleman on the poster who looks vaguely like Clark Gable. But if you look a little closer, he looks a lot more like Jonathan Frakes. And folks, that's because it is Jonathan Frakes. He played this character, Roland White, in five of the 17 episodes, and he was like paired with the ingenue in this poster.
00:20:38
Speaker
ah The Bay Area Zone, Linda Cardellini was in this show. She's from she's from Redwood City. Also had Holland Taylor in it. I have no memory of this show. I don't know anything about it. I didn't know that Jonathan Frakes was on another show after Star Trek. Nothing. ah no No recollection. And it won an Emmy. Wow. For costume design. And I mean, the fact that Voyager was nominated is kind of ridiculous because it literally is them recycling every costume they had in storage.
00:21:08
Speaker
Like nothing new was concerned for this episode. Maybe they're talking about those stupid costumes for the, um what's his name, Dr. Proton. Oh, sure. But but that even that's recycled, but you're probably right.
00:21:26
Speaker
ah So i just I just thought the lot thing was funny. And then finally, this is my last memory alpha
Stacey Abrams' Favorite Episode: 'Shattered'
00:21:31
Speaker
note. US Democratic Party leader and Georgia governor candidate Stacey Abrams, who has spoken at length about how the philosophy of Star Trek has shaped her personal and political beliefs, is a fan of episodes about space-time anomalies. And this one in particular, in 2019, a New York Times interview with Abrams about her love of Star Trek stated, one of her favorite things has shattered the 157th episode of Voyager, in which the ship goes through a temporal rift that tantalizingly splits it into different timelines. The article adds, Abrams admires Captain Picard, but reveres Admiral Janeway.
00:22:02
Speaker
And I haven't thought about why that is, because I think there's a scene in this episode that gives me warm, fuzzy feelings as well. And I think it's one of the reasons why this show sticks with a lot of people. Maybe we'll talk about that here in the grades, unless you have anything you want to add. No. All right, let's get into the grades. Great scenes. OK. I have several. um Well, and probably like four. Sorry, I can't count them. um I like that in the beginning when Shikote goes onto the bridge and was like, who's that? I don't recognize you. And Janeway immediately is just like, take him to the brig.
00:22:41
Speaker
Like she's a no-nonsense captain and she doesn't give a shit. but Well, she knows who she is. She's the guy that they're hunting. Yeah. Yeah. Like get this asshole. No, but like ah his story is not believable, mostly because Chiquote is not believable because he's not convincing in any way. Um.
00:23:03
Speaker
Chris has no way of picking up what Chakotay is putting down. No. And then my next one is Chakotay. When Chakotay takes Janeway, like he kidnaps her kind of and injects him, her with the... The chroniton serum. The chroniton stupid serum that makes you able to jump through timeframes, whatever. The time travel serum. And then he's like, I'm taking you to the... an astrometrics lab. And she says, we don't have an astrometrics lab on Voyager. And then she's shocked to learn that her very own Henry Kim is the one who created it. Harry Kim? That weak little boy? He's like, I know you think he's, yeah. Who's the incompetent one?
00:23:57
Speaker
Like she cannot believe it. like It's not that he's incompetent. It's more because remember in the pilot, her she's like his mother called me, asked if there was time for him to get his clarinet or whatever. Oh my God. it's like So she was like, that that little soft boy is going to build something. I don't believe it. Yeah, it's mine. Didn't mommy help him?
00:24:16
Speaker
ah So my next one is ah when the Borg Seven of Nine suggests that Um, Janeway and Chakotay's plan is not efficient in that it would be better if she assimilates them. And then Janeway says, ah, I don't think so. Like yeah we're going to stick to our own plan, but it was funny to me. Oh, and then, um, how and everybody hates Tom Paris's holodeck program.
00:24:46
Speaker
Like, she's like, we I'm going to remind me to revoke his privileges. yeah Like you have, but you have free reign of the holiday and you're going to do that. I guess it's been quite a many years. Yeah. I mean, he's, it's everything. He's exhausted all the weird sex stuff and that, or, and the shakes. Or he just, is he, maybe maybe he's an ace. Maybe Tom Paris. He just goes, he was banging Bolana like crazy. That one episode, remember? And seven of nine, everyone on deck, whatever can hear you. Yeah.
00:25:20
Speaker
um And then at the towards the end, when the whole gang has been assembled to engineering from different timeframes to jump the bad guys, and then Seven of Nine appears and just takes Seska by the throat.
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah, that was great. That was my shoot to thrill most exciting sequence now me too but where all of the time periods gang up on cesco. So um yeah, i I want to tack on to that scene with with the whole Harry Kim. maybe I that was one of my great scenes I had to ah but he's I like that he's resigned to having to tell her certain things right like you can tell he's like I can't tell everything and I really like that she's acting kind of incredulous but she's also like well he's kind of right about everything he's been saying so maybe I have to trust him and there is weird shit going on
00:26:21
Speaker
um It's kind of a really silly scene in terms of how he's explaining things and how she's having to act like she's never heard this stuff before. And you know, Kate Mulgrew's been in so many episodes of Voyager and been through so much ridiculous shit. And we all obviously as the audience are completely ahead of her. So it's like, how are you going to make this convincing? And it's like such a Star Trek scene. Like this is really the only scene you can do in Star Trek. And I mean, I think Kate Mulgrew is great as having to play Jane Wayne all the ways you have to play her. And don't wear that wig again. Well, right. And we just saw her do it in relativity. And I'm like, I think she looks slightly more like her first season self here. But both of them still do look like, oh, they're in the final season of the show. No, and then older.
00:27:07
Speaker
And Cesca even calls it out. She's like, Yeah, but you don't look like the same guy who was just here. Yeah. Like, I'm smarter than the average bear. And I don't I think some shit's going on. OK. So I just thought that was a great scene in in the enough of like, they're selling it enough. And he's like a good straight man to her, I think. ah Robert Belcher. I mean, that's what which you want to call it. But OK.
00:27:34
Speaker
I don't think he has no chemistry. We're not talking about enterprise chess members. No, he just has like one note. Like he's... For sure. For sure. No, I agree. I agree. The range is small. I totally agree. I just think that in that scene it works really well. And then the other one I had was when he's making the case for restoring Voyager to his timeframe. Cause Janeway basically gets the download of like, basically she gets the series pitch for
Janeway and Chakotay Relationship Dynamics
00:28:01
Speaker
Voyager. Yeah. And she's like, no thanks.
00:28:04
Speaker
so yeah I to watch that show. And so he makes the case and um it's like the saga cell. And so he's he's pitching to her like, no, no, the journey is worth it. You're going to like these characters by the end of it. You're going to like what happens. ah and And it's like he's pitching to a network exec or a test group, but that's just watching it, like give me a premise idea. Even Tom Paris, I'm even going to like him.
00:28:30
Speaker
so And he's even like with sexy results. And then even at the end, she's intrigued. She's like, how how sexy. yeah So don't I feel like it's a little neat to pitch a show in reverse in its seventh season. There is something kind of fun about this that I had never really thought about before. And I don't really see how many shows do this. Yeah, but I think I think it would have been better, in my opinion, if they had also included something that wasn't ah we're all going to die.
00:28:59
Speaker
That's a great point. I mean, that's what they were trying to do. And it's like too much. It's like, yeah if you do about every yeah every crisis you ever went through, would you want to go through it again? And most people would say, no. like I don't even want people like, what if you could redo high school? like I don't even have any bad feelings about high school, but I don't want to do it again.
00:29:22
Speaker
like I don't write term papers and all this stuff in the middle of the night. The books I've already read a bunch of times, I don't do that. There's the emotional story of like their relationship is the good part. I think that's what's supposed that's mainly what it's supposed to serve. Yeah. Where he's like, it's well, she's like, well, I guess it's not all about it's this kind of handsome guy with the face tattoo. And I have I do like, though, at the end that when she's basically like, so did we fuck or what?
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah, and then, of course, because he's a wimp, he doesn't even tell her about the tub he built her. Yeah.
00:30:00
Speaker
Can't even. Yeah. ah Well, we were stranded on a planet for like ever. Like we thought we were going to die there together. I made you a hot tub. Yeah. but We came close to coming close to thinking about maybe doing it. Yeah.
00:30:16
Speaker
All right, best trek tropes. I have a few. Uh, yeah. The replicated booze is not as good as the real stuff. Yeah. This is across Star Trek. It also is mentioned for coffee. I don't drink coffee, but I imagine that the bad booze just doesn't taste as good. Right. And the early doctor is such a bitch and I love it. I knew instantly that this wasn't the the today guy. Like, I thought it was weird. Because remember last week with relativity, I was like, it didn't seem like he inhabited that role as well. But here, I totally agree with you. Like, no, that's season two, The Doctor 100%. Like, but the last it was weird. He's like, Oh, come on. Like, I can't I'm a prisoner here. yeah
00:31:10
Speaker
And then ah Tom Paris does not have sophisticated tastes. And then Chakotay's like, that's why we love that dumb idiot. Yeah, sure. Yeah. That's why we keep him around.
00:31:22
Speaker
um And then ah the one Janeway has to be there where Tuvok dies. She's like, oh, no, this this shit ain't worth it at all. She's like, no, i'm gonna we're going to reset the timeline here and I'm not going to do any of this. This doesn't seem like a good idea.
00:31:38
Speaker
Oh, that's a great trope, their friendship. That's absolutely the case. It's totally believable. And I think that is when that scene follows. And she's like, what are we doing? And she's like, fuck the temporal prime directive. I lost the only good member of my crew. Like, I don't even know you, but like, I can tell from the half an hour we spent together that Tuvok, I mean, he's my guy.
00:32:04
Speaker
Any others? No. All right. I'm putting the tempo prime directive here, even though it's... The only reason I didn't mention it is because we've mentioned it in the past two three episodes. I'm just going to put it here, though, because I like that it actually creates a conflict for Chakotay, that he you can see what he's... It's just a nice thing for him to have to... think about it like it's a good way of writing him interestingly and keeping some conflict in the scenes although it's very strange that he lets the doctor say so much and spill the beans to Janeway that's just like
00:32:38
Speaker
that's tough. But I like getting into that later. yeah I just think it's a it was a good beat. It it created that dilemma in the turbolift, where she's like, I'm not doing this. And he's like, well, come on. Like, like are we sure? ah So I thought that worked okay, as a best trick joke. But I also have an worst trick joke, and I'll explain that in a minute. um I also put his best trick joke, Janeway and Chakotay Fick. I mean, I get it that geeks. I don't get it. I know I get that they're like, if you watch like a lot of these soapy shows, a lot of stuff is just going to look in the soapy shows like soap operas.
00:33:14
Speaker
well also like the vampire diaries, but like the vampire diaries, where it's just like oh too. I didn't watch that, but I did watch Gossip Girl. Or like Supernatural, where it's like, oh, those two guys looked at each other, they must be fucking in my headcanon. Like just, it's like the show, this show is giving you enough and obviously Mulgrew and Beltran are playing that to some degree. And I think As much as we've talked about this in the original series of Kirk using sexuality as a weapon, we cannot deny that Chakotay is leaving it out there like, we might fuck if you come along with me. Like, he's definitely using that. and I feel like he has so little charisma, like he has no chemistry with anybody.
00:33:54
Speaker
I get it. I get it. What I'm saying is like, that is a good thing to hang the emotional part of this episode on. This isn't like a sequel to the one where they're stuck, to resolutions where they're stuck on the planet. But it's long it's in that same arc, right? Because a it's bookended by the the dinner scene between the two of them.
00:34:15
Speaker
um which i which i want to talk about a second but then the last best trek trip i have was i don't know something having to do with the holodeck program running and them having to go into it and kind of ignore what's going on like it's a ride at disneyland because you have to go to like a maintenance hatch we've seen that in some other star trek episodes and i just like when they have to do that because it's first of all i'm creeped out by disneyland rides thinking about them of, like, what if you had to do maintenance on them? That weirds me out. Or just, like, when they're when you're off with their purposes to see behind the scenes. And something about a program running in the background where you have to, like, get to a hatch. Seems kind of fun to me. I don't know if I've been in Space Mountain when they turn the lights on, but I've definitely been in there when they had to stop the ride. But if you're in there long enough, they'll turn the lights on, and everyone who has done it has just been like, oh, no, this is is horrible.
00:35:06
Speaker
It's horrible. Also, but like, I think I've mentioned this on this podcast before, like just the idea of Splash Mountain with the music off and you've already done the drop, which would be bad enough in the dark. I've never liked doing that right at night. But like you do it and then you're you've got the riverboat after the drop and they're all singing. If the if the music dropped out.
00:35:26
Speaker
You would just hear the clacking and the of their plastic beads and then the machinery and then the water slapping against the side. It would be a horrifying thing to just sit and behold, like monstrous. And then I've seen pictures of it with the work lights on and I'm like, also monstrous. Yeah. Well, I told you I got stuck at the top of the roller coaster. Yes. Yeah.
00:35:51
Speaker
I think that's a different kind of terror. not to be the most cheerful other Other than being upside down, but they they said that like their rides, they can't stop upside down. They have like some kind of, like the inertia of the cart will actually like bring you back down. I mean, there's certain places where it'll stop because it has breaks and fail safes, but there's places that won't stop.
00:36:15
Speaker
Uh, worst trek tropes then I'm just going to lead right into the Janeway Chakotay fic as well. Yeah. He says, let's just say there was some barriers we never cross. And I wrote, boo. What a tease. So that was just a bummer. And then temporal prime directive also is a worst trek joke. Why can't he tell her what happened? Well, I put that he's really bad at the temporal prime directive because he he spills the whole fucking beans anyway. He.
00:36:44
Speaker
He spills a part of it until he doesn't shut the doctor up. like you know But then after that, he's like, well, then this and this happens and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's okay. It's gonna be fine. We get out of it. I'm like, are you supposed to say that to her?
00:36:59
Speaker
He doesn't have to tell her that I went to the future where we die in 17 years from now. And Naomi Wildman's a lieutenant, and Icheb is the first officer. like we don't He doesn't have to say that. He can just say like the anomaly actually fractured time, and I was like jumping through all this shit. like Remember, I went to season two, and I went to season two. But at what? He can't say, like, you had a chance to prevent this. Maybe he just didn't want to get in. He didn't want to have a fight. She's like, you had a chance to stop this. He didn't want to know the horrifying truth that it wouldn't be up to her. So, yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's what it was. But at the same, same point, we agree. He was bad at maintaining the temporal prime directive. No, horrible. And no poker face whatsoever when he's with, uh, what's it?
00:37:47
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's saying a lot. Because like you said, he doesn't have a lot of range. So him not having a poker face is kind of- Oh, but if you don't do that, the ship will be destroyed. She's like, yeah, okay, whatever. Like, red hand, like, oh, when I last saw you had a gash across your forehead. Like, red hand, like an open book. Keeping Seska consistent was nice. She was always nice. Yeah, no, she's great. He is an idiot.
00:38:17
Speaker
How? don' I'm surprised she her plan didn't work somehow. She worked him. Only because the cavalry showed up. That's right. Well, that was Janeway's plan. This guy's too stupid. we've got Can we use his ah idiocy? I'm going to try diplomacy and she's like, you know what? Let's have a backup plan in case you're I'm gonna just talk my way out of it doesn't work. Yeah. By the way, let's name like two or three Star Trek characters that could have talked their way out of that one. No problem. It doesn't have to be like top tier. ah Well, I'd say like even Dr. Pulaski could have talked her way out of that one.
00:39:08
Speaker
appreciate what which part the when ses has gone away and Yeah, like I need to put this thing in I like to convincing like I need to do this Otherwise everyone on the ships gonna die including you right like a minor bluff, right? so Even the Vulcans could have bluff their way through this one. Well, sure. Spock could have done it pretty much anyway. No, Scotty could have done it. Sulu could have done it. Check out could have done it. You could have done any Vulcan on any Star Trek show ever could have done it. And they're not supposed to lie. Nurse Chapel on Strange New Worlds could have done it. Yeah, I'm going to say Nurse Chapel.
00:39:46
Speaker
would have been in and out of their lickety split. This is my first thing, nice thing I'm saying about Nurse Chapel. Like even the Magel Barrett and Nurse Chapel would have been like, oh yeah, I just went in there and told him I had to do some maintenance or whatever. For sure. Dr. Mabenga, he also would have. Oh, he would have fucking roasted all of them. You don't even needed the backup.
00:40:08
Speaker
be like, don't worry, I got you. I don't think Janeway could have. It worked exactly as Janeway did it. Just because Janeway's the captain and they would have been like, ooh, hostage. Janeway, of course, played it perfectly because she and Tuvok are the only two people who know to do it.
00:40:27
Speaker
It's like, well, I can't go in there. They'll take me as a hostage. I'm like, obviously the most valuable person here. You just get on in there and don't worry about it. Do we put that as a best trek trip then? Like Janeway, Janeway
Janeway's Leadership and Strategy
00:40:41
Speaker
is the best. Like Janeway is the only smart person on the ship. Yeah. And unfortunately two buckets in the mess hall dying of radiation poisoning. Like otherwise you would have been in the mix, I guess.
00:40:53
Speaker
uh worst trek trope pot roast what the hell is it i know two episodes in a row with these pot rows although we didn't have to see it this time yeah we didn't get we didn't have to see it we know how that would have looked so yeah they're like we still got the other one i do have also the fucking chronotons and all the techno babble around it like Ugh. Can you replicate chroniton infused hyperspray casing using the same principles you used to make the serum? I believe so. Why? It's just like, to it's usually the Trek actors complain about sometimes this techno babble could be a mouthful. And I think that is actually the nicest way of saying some of this is dumb as shit.
00:41:33
Speaker
it just something And it just sounds silly. Oh, I'm seeing a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, couldn't Chakotay say, like, we need to find a way to be able to get the serum in a vial through the threshold? Can you figure it like that's just a normal, that's the same idea. And and the doctor's like, I can, believe I believe I can figure out a way to encase it or something. By the way, the doctor was doing a lot of heavy lifting in this episode and he's in it for what?
00:42:01
Speaker
90 seconds. That's half a day of work for Robert Picardo, I'm sure of it. Also, everything he does, it gets erased. So he's like congratulating himself on like, I came up with this cool shit and then nope, it's gone. I have one more. Oh, sorry, but along those lines of the techno babble, the deflector dish burning out at the end and it shows that it's off as the ship moves away. That is that's The deflector just is there to like sweep out little rocks and meteorites that will literally punch through the hull. So the ship moving away, especially at the speed it's moving, is like, no, that's that's how the ship gets destroyed. So just like the techno babble on top of like all the little factual inaccuracies. What a mess. Anyway, what was your last one?
00:42:49
Speaker
ah The Dr. Proton is, in my opinion, like the Gilbert and Sullivan reference of this show. But they did there was nothing of science fiction that was in the public domain at the time other than like, I don't know, Frankenstein or Dr. Proton. Yeah, Captain Proton. Dr. Chaotica, Captain Proton.
Nostalgic Homage: Captain Proton and Sci-Fi Serials
00:43:11
Speaker
Sorry, Captain Proton. He didn't go to 40 years of captain school to become a doctor.
00:43:20
Speaker
Having said that, for my most cosmeable character a moment, I regrettably... Oh, 100%. Yeah, the whole the whole group of them. Yeah. The robot is the coolest part of that, because you look so silly. Oh, yes, absolutely. yeah I tried very hard to think of what else you could do, because I... Well, 7M9 is the Borg, I guess. was like That was a written before I saw... Sorry, Captain Proton. I thought, well, that would be probably pretty cool.
00:43:50
Speaker
Maybe maybe Tom Paris's love of old things yeah is the worst Trek trope because all that really is is an insert for like the thing that Rick Berman liked when he was a kid, which is like, who cares? No, the only reason I put it as a worst Trek trope is because it's so antiquated for these people that it it's it's.
00:44:11
Speaker
It doesn't make any sense. like Honestly, they would obviously be like, oh, it's Star Trek. And it doesn't recontextualize it. It just does it. like it's it So you don't actually get anything out of it by doing it, other than the exercise of doing it. Anyway, now it's time for the line must be drawn. Great lines. I have many. There are most of the training lines. Oh, OK. So I have one from Naomi in the beginning. When she's putting together a puzzle, she says, if you really want to help, find me a green piece that looks like Tuvok's ear.
00:44:42
Speaker
And then when the doctor says, anywhere else, the answer would have earned me a prestigious award. Of course, on Voyager, it's just another day in the life of an underappreciated EMH. That's why he's the season two doctor in this episode, not the last one, because yeah that is something he would have said in season two. So they wrote him. I would have won the Nobel Prize, but I'm stuck here.
00:45:08
Speaker
um And then when Janeway says, were these characters always this ridiculous? Oh my god. Everyone's asking that question. I'll just run through the Janeway lines along along that. ah It doesn't seem like my first command is shaping up the way I expected. is I love her hand gesture with that. ah Sounds like it's going to be one disaster after another on this ship. Got that right.
00:45:33
Speaker
If we restore the timeline, remind me to revoke Mr. Paris's holodeck privileges. ah Just slam dunk, just Janeway, just i know i slam dunking, raining threes. It would've been great though if like, after this is gonna be one disaster after another, Chico too would've been like, well one time Neelix organized a ping-pong tournament.
00:45:57
Speaker
And he made a really bad roast. Roast beef or pot roast or whatever. They'll be stuck in the Delta Quadrant. If the temporal anomaly doesn't kill them, something else will. The Borg, telepathic picture plans, macro viruses. The Delta Quadrant is a death trap.
00:46:11
Speaker
ah ah chakote or Tom Paris, he's talking about all the people she's going to help, or Tom Paris, a former convict who will be our pilot, chief medic, and husband to Belonna Torres. Janeway, that angry woman I just met?
00:46:26
Speaker
ah Then the last one, I have Chakotay. I'm detecting an active neurogenic field. This could be the day the telepathic pitcher plant put us all into comas, or it might be the time aliens invaded our dreams. It's like a family card reference there. Would this be a fun, humble novel to play out?
00:46:48
Speaker
um Yeah, if you're a big Voyager fan, I think you would really love this. That's my exact answer. I i put maybe, but if you're a big Voyager fan, yes. So Brad Boymoor of Lower Decks, he must love doing this adventure. yeah He'd probably even like playing Janeway and making big moon eyes at Chakotay. He's a big boy fan, we find out, in Lower Decks, so. Okay. The Anton Curtin Award for Best Performance. Well, it's not Robert Beltram, that's for sure. Okay. I will give it to literally anyone else.
00:47:21
Speaker
I had Robert Beltran. Oh, OK. I'm moving off of it. I'm fine with that. Because he's bad in this episode? Should we give it to Martha Hackett as Seska? Yes, I think so. I'm fine with that. Because she.
00:47:35
Speaker
She was convincing. Not deeply written. Like, that you could have had a moment of that relationship maybe going a step deeper to connect it back, to make it clear that they, she did exactly play him like an instrument in but which she was on the show. She played him like a fiddle. Yeah, and she does, that's her whole, that's their whole or affair. But like, she could always, you could have gone one extra step further. She's like, I'm so disappointed in you. Just once, I'd like you to like outsmart me. And you never did.
00:48:03
Speaker
um So it gives her, then the Shatner, I got to say it's got to be Kit Mulgrew as Janeway. Okay. I'm fine. now Again, not bad. Just going for it. She's like, Harry Kim, we don't have an actual metrics lab. Like, uh, you know, and just that angry woman I just met. She's, and she's got to try to play her younger self and I don't know. I, anyway, shoot to throw most exciting image or sequence. We've already answered. It's the takedown sequence. We're all the time engineering. No.
00:48:30
Speaker
By the way, having a board come in that's already adapted to your weapons frequency and just walking straight towards you and then grabbing you, that's a horrifying image, but very cool in Star Trek. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? I don't know. um
00:48:51
Speaker
Yeah, I put the, well, the chronotons serum is never invented. So I guess the old, we'll just reiterate the old temp crime directive. I can't talk direct out it about it at all. Yeah, the old temporal, again, another honors system. The real booze is better than the replicated one. That's a good, I hope they do that in Starfleet Academy, right? Cause it's like, oh, I just replicate my booze. I don't need that big of a buzz. And you're like, you're missing out. This isn't real Guinness. Yeah, that's not real. Yeah, exactly. That'd be fun. I like that. Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? Yes. I mean, it definitely could have, obviously. It was hinting at maybe being a little horny. Yeah.
00:49:30
Speaker
Like, Janeway got turned on in the sixth. And he's like, but we never crossed that boundary. Anyway, goodbye. She's like, he must be a eunuch.
00:49:43
Speaker
One of these eunuchs I keep hearing. Yeah, I gave you my copy of Dante's Inferno and you didn't fuck me? What a loser. By the way, that's how you know, like, a man wrote this script because women don't just, women just loan books without any like no one cares. but Like if a man loans you their copy of something, it's a big deal. Like, oh, like someone once lent me like a copy of a play they thought I would like. Actually, that was that was actually a common occurrence. Men would be like, here, I thought you'd like this play. A printed like bound play. I'm like, okay, cool. But I didn't know the significance at the time that this was like,
00:50:25
Speaker
handing over their most prized possession. If this episode had been written in like 2006 or 2007 because Voyager is so far behind a lot of the pop culture trends, it would have been like a first edition of something. Oh yeah.
00:50:39
Speaker
That was a funny romantic- My first edition of John's Agent 4.
00:50:48
Speaker
My fiance gave me that. He's a temporal archaeologist.
Voyager Series Celebration and Reflection
00:50:51
Speaker
Don't ask too many questions about that. All right, so Trek, Merry or Kill shattered. It's a trek for me. It was a fun time. um I wish they'd give this assignment to some other another person on the cast who I felt could sell it better, but other than that, it was good.
00:51:10
Speaker
ah Yeah, I had it as barely a trek because as fun as the concept is I think the direction doesn't really maximize how fun it can be and um Yeah, I don't like it's got interesting parts, but it's just like yeah, it's fine if you want to watch it I'm not I'm not gonna say it's a waste of your time, but so its If you're a big Voyager fan, you'll love it. that's You know what? That's fair. I don't think it i still don't think even if like I'm thinking of it's not like one of the 10 best episodes of Voyager. It's like a love letter to Voyager, though. And does that make it ah an amazing episode of Star Trek? Not necessarily. ah So all right. Next week, we're going to jump back into Star Trek Discovery's final season. Charisse, the sci-fi savage, will be back. And we'll be judging Face the Strange.
00:51:54
Speaker
When a time bug fractures the space-time continuum within Discovery, Burnham and Raynor must use Discovery's history to work out a solution while also patching up their interpersonal conflict. So a much more direct connection to this episode than previously with Relativity. Relativity just simply has the idea of like there's something overarching, which Face the Strange does as well because the seasoned villains have put them in this situation, which is what happened in Relativity. so That's the similarities there. But again, this episode very similar to Face the Strange next week. If you're enjoying Trek Mary Kill, consider rating and reviewing us on whichever platform you're listening. We're Trek Mary K-Pod on social media. Trek Mary K-Pod at Gmail if you want to send us questions or comments. And if you want to keep track of all of our grades, go to trekmarikillpod.com on the web. So until next week, TMK out. Bye.