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You Don't Have To Yell To Get Your Point Across (with special guest Nug Nahrgang)
91 Plays6 months ago
In this very special episode of Friendless, James Avramenko sits down with guest Nug Nahrgang to explore the complexities of relationships, community, and pro wrestling.
The conversation expands into the safety and understanding within a close-knit community, reminiscing about formative university years and the paradoxes of connection. The duo humorously discusses the adoption of enemies through relationships, with Nug sharing his own amusing yet insightful experiences.
Listeners get a glimpse into Nug's multifaceted career, from sketch comedy and podcasting to the inner workings of the wrestling industry. With anecdotes about meeting wrestling personalities like Eddie Kingston, Nug highlights the importance of mental health awareness and genuine support in any community.
The episode covers the impact of social media on mental well-being, the superficial nature of digital friendships, and the shifting dynamics brought about by the pandemic. Nug provides valuable advice on checking in on friends and emphasises the importance of honest communication and support.
As they navigate through stories of acting auditions, improvisation, and the pressure of living in the artistic world, James and Nug underline the significance of community and shared experiences. Concluding on a reflective note, they discuss the essence of friendship and the pursuit of recognition in their respective careers.
Join James and Nug for an engaging and heartfelt discussion about life’s highs and lows, the importance of community, and the strides toward becoming better friends to ourselves and those around us.
Check out Nug's podcast "One Dollar Words"
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back to Friendless. I'm your host, James Avramenko, and this week I'm joined on the show by the incredible Nug Nargang.
Artistic Communities and Wrestling Insights
00:00:17
Speaker
We discuss the pitfalls of artistic communities, taking on our friends' enemies, and the safety practices of performative violence in pro wrestling. All this and so much more. Nugg is an incredible guest. I was so lucky to have him on and chat with him. And I think you're going to love this one. So lean back, get comfy, set your volume at a reasonable level and enjoy my interview with the one and only Nugg Nargang here on Friendless.
00:00:49
Speaker
Nugg Nargin, you're someone who I have watched through the years. And when when when we when I found out you were going to be my my competition at Codenames, my heart just kind of went, what it kind of skipped a beat when I i recognized you. Oh my God. it's just so it and it is for the nonsense that I've done to be recognized for any of it just seems so
The Mustard Man Meme and Recognition
00:01:19
Speaker
weird. Yeah, yeah. There's a long standing meme on the internet of the mustard man, which is me from a show we shot a jillion years ago in Ottawa. And every now and then it pops up again or somebody mentions it and it gets a new life again. and
00:01:32
Speaker
I've been recognized at a grocery store at two 30 in the morning by a stoner. And I'm like, is that the recognition you crave when you get into writing? right Is that the recognition I want? really it Cool. Maybe it's like, maybe it's one of those things where it's like, it's not the thing you wanted. It's the thing you needed. You know, it's the thing I'm getting. Right. Yeah. It's what I'm getting. So I guess I just make that the thing I want and I'll feel fine. yeah
Evolution of the Podcast
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah. In a way, it's like, it's almost been how I've felt about this podcast where I remember when I started it, I was like, I don't want this to be my like, life's work. I don't want this to be the thing I'm known for because it was like initially it was the you know it was the gimmick of unfriending people and it was supposed to just be like silly and goofy and then as the years have gone on I've been like oh no this is like this is you know I've made this into the thing I want it to be right and so like if I were to be recognized for it that would rule you know and and I've sort of like forced it into be something into being something I'm proud of right but yeah
00:02:27
Speaker
i'm gonna but i'm gonna force myself to be something i'm for force me to be proud of the thing i'm doing and then i'll feel good being recognized right it isn't that the work in itself it's the hardest work it's the hardest work ah um So so I want to go deeper into that's the story of of the the the what was it called? I just remember it was it would air before
Inside 'Aftermath' Wrestling Show
00:02:50
Speaker
Smackdown. It was called Aftermath. And it started it started as a show called Right After Wrestling, which aired right after Raw. So it had the same initials and it had Jimmy Corderis, Arda O'Kell and Renee but and Renee Paquette. Yes. And then over the years, Renee got pinched by
00:03:07
Speaker
WWE, Artica pinched by WWE, and Jimmy remained in the Rogers family was like, well, we have another up and coming. um sports broadcaster named Jackie Redmond, who had won their Gillette ah sports broadcaster search. yep And Renee was a judge on that. And so it was just natural. Let's slide Jackie into that role. And she will continue to do Plays of the Week. But we need another person. We need an Arda, or we need somebody else. And the story from Renee, when she called me, ah she got pinched by WWE. And on her way out the door, ah the boss, Roger, said, wait, do you know anybody who can talk about wrestling on TV?
00:03:47
Speaker
Renee goes, Yeah, nug. And so then when I went in for my interview, and I mean, I was, I'm still an actor and an improviser and whatever. But I went in for my interview, like I tried to dress nice. I don't know what sports people wear. And so I tried to dress nice. And I get into the office, this giant conference room with just me and two executives. And they go, So who's your favorite wrestler? And you know me. So of course, I go, Well, do you mean like now or like of all time? Because right now I like these guys. But when I was a kid, I like these
Wrestling and Theatrical Performances
00:04:19
Speaker
guys. And so it's hard to compare. And they were like, well, you have the gig because you know what you're talking about. Of course. Yeah. And so when I got on the show, I knew that it was wrestling. But we had Jimmy, who was a ref and used to work there. yeah We had Jackie, who was the sports broadcaster and kind of running the talking heads of our panel. And then we would have this fourth chair occasionally that was
00:04:40
Speaker
Uh, sometimes cam steward who used to work for the score and he was like a sports betting guy, big loud, um you know, very, um, had a lot of personality. And then we had other guys from the network that they were trying to see like, are they good on camera or not? We had like a rotating chair. And then after a while we got Santino. That's that's what I was watching. Yeah. I remember just being so like I hadn't really watched wrestling in years. And and, you know, when I had when I had grown kind of moved away from it, he was kind of coming in with his character. And then to get reintroduced him, just like talking like just, you know, like a regular human. Toronto. Yeah. Stony Creek. ah We always joke. He's a Mississauga, you know. But anyway,
00:05:21
Speaker
um But I quickly realized on the show, like you have two insiders of like because Anthony is a more recent insider and Jimmy was there, but Jimmy's been there his first year reffing. He was there driving people around and stuff, but he became a ref in like 1984 or five. Wow. And so like I have two different kinds of insiders plus Jackie. yeah I need to find my spot. Yes. Yeah. And it was easy for me to go. Well, I'm the fan. I'll be the fan because I am a fan. Yeah. But it was also fun to come at it at that angle because everybody else would find like Jackie wanted to talk about this. And then Jimmy would like, what are our wins and fails for the week? Jimmy's wins was Jimmy's win was this. His fail was I wish this would have went better, you know, or I wish this went differently because you can't really crap on the product that your company pays billions of dollars a year to play. yeah So anyway, but when it would come around to me, I would naturally go, what's a fourth thing? I, because I want the conversation to continue.
00:06:18
Speaker
So whether or not I agreed with it or not, I would go online and see what the fans were saying, and then sort of make that into my version of my opinion, whether I believed it or not. Or I'd sometimes find a way like, sometimes I would just say somebody tanked an interview or something like, why are you giving that guy the microphone? That guy sucks. And then I'd hear, like, I get it online from people that are like, he's right. That guy does suck. I can't believe he said that on a product of w WWE. And i would I would always reply with, well, they don't pay me. Roger pays me and they haven't told me to stop saying this yet. So I'm going to just keep doing why not. Yeah. Well, and, you know, the the thing I, you know, again, like coming from the sort of like the outside perspective of watching the show and not knowing you at the time, like I appreciated that you weren't trying to ah like kind of talk like an insider, you know, like I think we had two of them line. Yeah. Well, that's just we had two of them. Right. Not only do we have two of them, but we have a two we had two of them, one who had spent years
00:07:14
Speaker
ah not only working there like Jimmy, but he knows how to toe the line as like when he's criticizing. yeah He's not going to lean too far into getting in trouble with the company and putting our show on the radar and getting us canceled. Yeah. But we also had Anthony Santino, who was new at that and routinely screwed up and routinely got us mentioned like, hey, guys, tell Anthony to cool it, you know. Yeah. yeah So I was just playing the part of the fan like, you know, this guy's great. This guy's dumb. See you next week. You know, that's all I would do. I would try and just try and make it fun. Yes. and and And it's that thing of like, you know, you often see, especially like on the Internet, you see, you know, fans who are typing and they're trying to use like the lingo and they're trying to use the like, you know, and it was like it just it that always felt really I've never been comfortable, you know, I'll use some of the terms, but it's like I've never, you know, I've never worked in the wrestling industry. So I would never feel like I deserve to use that terminology in a way. yeah I do.
00:08:11
Speaker
Like i've do i've i work independent shows all over the place sure yeah i refuse to use the terminology because it just makes me look like i'm like i'm coming in with my insider terms hey guys right guys i'm one of you guys i don't even bother i shake a hand i say hello i do what i'm paid to do and i take off but i desperately don't say. anything that puts me in the light of, Oh, that guy thinks he knows more than he does. I'm like, no, I don't, I know nothing. I know, but I don't know anything. So it's always, I do learn something every time I work a show. I'm like, Oh, that's, Oh, that's what that's called. Okay, great. Yeah. And it's like, you know, oh God, you know,
00:08:50
Speaker
Man, I, I'm trying to think of there's so many different directions. I want to take this conversation, but it's like, but it's like the thing that, you know, like you say, the thing that I continue to find so fascinating about pro wrestling in general is that it's like, there's the product that you see as a fan. And then there's the world behind it, you know? And that world is bananas. Yeah. Yeah. And there's this part of me that like, anytime I find out something new, I'm always like, that's so interesting. And then there's this part of me that's like, I kind of want to keep the veneer up because it's the same as like Hollywood. It's the same as movies where it's like, yes, it's predetermined, you know, but it's like, there's the fun in the suspension of the disbelief. And I just said, I just said the wonderful Mark Andrada on my podcast, longtime friend of mine.
00:09:34
Speaker
And he just said this so perfectly the other night. He said, there's something lovely about sitting in the room where you're watching two men pretend to fight each other. And all of us are pretending that that's real together. yeah And that's really it. RJ also, when he does stand up, is like, wrestling is Santa. Shut up. Don't ruin it. Don't ruin it for the people who believe in it. Just keep your mouth shut. It's great that you know, but you're going to wreck it. And so now when I watch it, it is like a giant, like it is like watching a movie, but it's happening right in front of you, and there's no second takes. And so and it's mostly stunts. ye And none of them are good at acting, and only some of them are good at the stunts.
00:10:16
Speaker
yep so It's always it's always something different. It's always something weird and different, but ah it's a blast. It's always a blast. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I always I always equate it to it's like it's my favorite version of it's like my favorite type of theater, you know, like the theater in the world. Yeah, it's lie. And ah I was explaining it to some actors the other night. You know, if you're on a regular proscenium stage and we're fighting, ah if I turn, if I if I'm going to punch you, your back is to the audience and I punch you and I miss you by a country mile. But you sell that punch like I did punch you and the crowd goes, oh, we just do it in Evil Dead all the time. I hit a guy in the face with a shotgun.
00:10:56
Speaker
yeah But I was a mile away from him. But in wrestling, that audience isn't that far away. They're much closer and they're on all sides. yeah So these guys have trained not just to wrestle and, you know, sports entertain, but also like, how far can I throw my hand out? I know how far away somebody is and I will put my, my fist will land on their cheek, but it will not. Yeah. And you know, and if if there's something amazing about, if somebody, it's a show about hurting people to win a match, but if I hurt you, I've done it wrong. Exactly. It's magic. It's a lot of pretending. Yep. Yep. Um, so.
00:11:36
Speaker
We're going to be able to talk a lot of wrestling today. And I think i think i think i want you I want to swing away from it for a little bit, just to give some of my my less wrestling inclined listeners. we'll get We'll get back to it. And if we do talk about it, we'll make it very friendly to people who don't know what's going on. Bingo, bingo. But you know i want to I want to kick things off with, um you know for for listeners who may not be familiar with your work, um I'm wondering if you could answer a very simple question. 100%. Who the hell are you? Oh, I'm just a kid from small town, Ontario, who lucked his way into being on TV for a few things. um I, you know, I was in a very small town, fabulous Clinton, Ontario, which says population 2500 on the sign, generous. And then um it's not the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from the front porch of my old house. ah And then I
00:12:30
Speaker
I applied to all these universities and i my and older friend of mine who went to York was like, go to York, York's your place. And I was like, okay. I applied and didn't get in. And then I got a late acceptance letter to York on like, and the letter, this was mail, people actual mail. And I got a letter that said reply by the day I got the mail. And I was like, Oh, that's where I want to go. We called, sorted it all out, drove to Toronto, figured out everything.
Personal Journeys and Friendships
00:12:54
Speaker
And then this older friend of mine was like, move, claim you cannot move in on move in weekend that you have to move in a week early. And then, uh, walk around the campus and know where everything is. And then when everybody moves in, you're the guy who knows where everything is. And I was like, Oh, cool. And I did that and it was awesome. Uh, so, but I had done after school plays all through high school. And then when I got to York.
00:13:19
Speaker
I was an English major because my small town drama program ended at grade 11. I was at a pub one night drinking with some kids, and I was like, hey, what are you guys taking for school? And they're like, theater. And I went, no, but for school. And they said, theater. And I was like, i missed I missed my calling. I could have done this. So there was, ah in the building, I was in Vania residence, was attached to Vania College, which was like a series of classrooms and offices. But there was Vania College Productions, which was like an after-school theater program. And I auditioned. And at my audition, the director was like, can you come back Wednesday? And I was like, there's more of this. I didn't realize it was a callback. I didn't know anything. I got to the callback with he was casting 10 people, five guys, five girls. And the rule for the company was if you were in the show the year before you got an automatic call callback,
00:14:13
Speaker
but the year before they had 30 people in the show. So we did the callback and there were 30 other people on top of the 40 people that he called back or whatever that were all like high five and shaking hands saying hi to the director. Like they all knew each other. And I so i was sitting beside this other guy. I went, do you know any of these fucking people? And he goes, no. And I went, hi, I'm Nug. And he's like, I'm John. Great. And so we just stuck together. Like, anytime we were like, he wanted to see us read. He wanted to see this. We just changed up all the combinations. And by the end of it, me and this John guy were beside each other with these 10 other people. And he just had us change positions and stand up, sit down, OK, thanks. And then we saw our names posted on the list. And John's name was on that list. And I was like, cool, I have a friend. you know And um that's John Catucci from the Food Network. hey um
00:15:01
Speaker
I was in his wedding party. He was in my wedding party. We've never stopped. We still text every day, but it's like you were you're already alienated because you're, I'm from a small town. These are all city kids. I didn't know I could take theater. I'm going after school. Now here's a room full of people who all know each other and I'm like, ah, fuck. And I try and clank, you know, cling to another guy who's the same as in the same spot as me. yeah But it was that company. That company got me the training, which it's so funny because I always say that that company is very much you're the lead. Congratulations. Here's a paintbrush and a hammer. We need to set by Thursday and you're sewing your own costume. So I learned how to do the lights. I learned how to do sound. I learned how to do front of house. I learned how to paint. I learned how to build. I like i did everything. I directed. I stage managed. diet
00:15:52
Speaker
Oh, you name it produced. I did all sorts of stuff. But I also acted in the plays, was in the improv company, worked at wrote sketch. And then from that, started doing sketch comedy with a bunch of friends. And then our one of our alumni started producing a sketch show downtown at the old Tim Sims Playhouse, which was inside the Second City Theater at the time. And he just knew us from doing stuff up at York. So pretty soon, these three sketch troops that came out of York were all going downtown and taking turns opening for each other on this show and being seen by more of the Toronto community.
00:16:24
Speaker
And from that, I got an audition for Second City, and they had me improvise, which, I mean, I just knew it as making stuff up. But I'm out auditioning for Second City, and they want to it told this story just the other day, how at the audition, at the very end of it, like I was jumping in and making stuff up. That was what I know about improv. yeah And they have us do a musical thing. And I can sing in the shower. I've done musicals before, but it's not like I don't listen on the top. and 20 things. You're not leading with it yet. i Certainly not. Uh, it's in the appendix of the book. Um, so anyway, uh, I remember going like, Oh, my brain was like, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I'll watch these people do it. There's only six of us. By the time the fifth guy walks out, my English major storytelling brain goes, Oh fuck, I'm closing this.
00:17:15
Speaker
yeah Like i have to end the most I have to end the scene and sing and rhyme because these people are all rhyming. So I remember doing it and doing it on a dick joke and being mortified. And then going back to York to where I was directing the improv company and all my students were like, How'd it go? And I went, I closed on a rhyming, singing dick joke. And they all go, oh, no. And I was like, I know. And then the next thing you know, I'm understudying for Second City. And um my my era was, I got in the touring company and I was understudying, but I understudied like, yeah I was in the era of, well, these two look alike and these two look alike. So I guess Nugg's going to understudy Sandy Jobin-Bevins, who is 6'3 and very handsome. And I'm like, that is not this guy.
00:17:57
Speaker
And so when I did understudy, the scenes took on a whole different, like they were laughing for completely different reasons. Of course. Which we were all very cognizant of. And then I, you know, I kept doing sketch on the side and then I got taken out to do Evil Dead the Musical and got back into the touring company and left again to do Evil Dead for two years. And then God did Cannibal the Musical and Aftermath at the same time, then we did Night of the Living Dead Live. And like, it's just, um, absolute nonsense. yeah Podcasting, I always wanted to do on the side. So I did a podcast for a long time with Paul Bates and Lee Smart from Second City. ah We improvised and then added sound effects and music to make it sound like an old time radio show. We did that for ages. I think there's 10 seasons of that up on the internet still. it's it's But that was God, it was edit.
00:18:46
Speaker
For anybody in podcasting, do this, turn a mic on and go, don't do what we did. It was too much. Even for mine, where I'm like, i it even for my podcast, $1 words, I'm like, I have a theme song. yeah why Why do I do that? That's literally just taking up time. like nights I have to do it every week. Oh my God. this like i have yeah I have done so much work to do as little work as I can. Yeah, I set up a framework and just save it and then I just drop stuff in, but I still have to edit. and it's Oh, yeah. And either that is just like, kill me. Just please, please. And myself, I remember so many people going, well, I'll I offer out, I'll edit for you. Yeah. Because when I used to edit illusion with Paul and Lee, I was like, no, because because because I've i've had another person edit when I'm in the room. Yeah. And I'll go, no, no, no. Back up. I don't change that. And like, that's not fun for that person.
00:19:38
Speaker
yeah So I'll just take it on. And so I could get an episode out. I could, by the end of it, I could crank one out in like two and a half or three hours. yeah But when I first started, it was like five, six hours. I also, into my in my travels of working for Second City, I worked on the cruise ships. And when you got off the cruise ship, you met people from other cruise ships and you'd swap movies on hard drives so you could watch something all week. yeah yeah And from that, I lucked into like 50 gigs of old radio sound effects. And so my brain is like, Oh, I need a car door slamming. Well, here's the file of 400 makes of car door slamming. And I'm like, I just want one. I want one that sounds like a car door. Oh my God. My friend, a friend of mine, uh, in Saskatoon had a very similar hard drive that he shared with me. It was, you know, like a terabyte of sound sounds phenomenal. Yeah. And it's like, it's this incredible resource that I'm so glad I have. And at the same time to have never really.
00:20:27
Speaker
even scratch the surface of, because just like you say, you get, you you're like, I need a phone ringing. And then it's like, here's a thousand phones ringing. And and then you just want to close the file. exactly I'm overwhelmed. what You know what? I think I'm not going to make this show actually, as they started by the end, I had started. If I knew I needed a phone ringing, let's say I, I would have at some point listened to 20 of them of the 400 and went, that's a good one. And then there's a way to market. it like in your little file market with a color. So then later on, when I went to get a phone, I'm like, Oh, okay. Good. That's a good one. That's, I already approved that. Yes. Yeah. And that feels, I mean, that's a really good workaround. That's a good, like, almost like an ADHD brain hack thing of like, of like, do the work when it doesn't feel like work, you know, yeah right? You know, when, yeah when you have the capacity and you have the focus and you feel like I'm focused and I'm in, I'm like, fuck, I got to go to look for a phone ring. Then I go and previous me.
00:21:22
Speaker
has already approved this one, I go, ah, thank you. Thanks, buddy. Yes. Yes. That's you know, it's self-love right there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, OK. So, oh, my God, you have so much like I'm sure you have endless stories about every single thing you just brought up and I want to. Yeah, absolutely. All of it. Um, I want to, you I want to circle to, um, I want to circle back though, because, you know, kind of thinking on the concept of like friends and I think friends within the arts is a really interesting kind of experience for me. yeah know yeah and And when you talked about like, you know, cause there's the, there's the hell that is the audition route, like waiting room, you know, like when there's all the people and there's that, there's that like schmoozy We're all trying to get the same job. but And we're also all not trying to talk about that we're all competing for the same job. Exactly. I do find it, I mean, other than the people I know, when you walk in and go, fuck, you're gonna get it, you know, that kind of thing.
Audition Environments and Sobriety
00:22:19
Speaker
There is a room full of people who are fake schmoozing you. Yeah. and Because they feel they have to make conversation because it's an awkward moment.
00:22:28
Speaker
And I would prefer not talking at all. Just don't, that's just it. It's like, I would always rather somebody, you know, there's there's this thing I hear pop up every now and then, like, ah you know, TikTok places like that, where it's like, there's a difference between being kind and being nice. And like, kindness, kindness is when you are willing to be on on, you know, not nice. Right. Nice is fake. Kindness is like I love myself first. So sometimes I'm not going to be nice. Right. And I think the the audition rooms in my experience usually have a lot of nice to it. Yes. And and that nice is overtly fake. And I find it extremely phony. Yeah. um Like we you know why we're here. We're all trying to get the same gig. Exactly. So when it gets down to three of us, you know, it's one of the three of us.
00:23:18
Speaker
congratulations to one of the three of us. yeah But i also I've also tried to explain to my wife, like when we first started dating, she's like she's a teacher. So she's like, tell me about what you did today. today I'm like, oh, I went to an audition. And she's like, oh, and what happened? I go, I went to the audition and I came home. And she's like, well, when do you find out? And I go, possibly never. like i don't I don't know how to explain this to you unless I put it in terms you understand. And I go, it's a job interview that I will never hear about unless I got the job. And if I don't get the job, I'll never hear why. Yeah. And repeat that forever. So she's like, how do you do it? And I go, I don't know. It's a sickness. It's a weird, it's a weird thing to be an actor because you have to have a thin skin, but you also have to have the thickest skin possible.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah because you've got to keep yourself open right you know it's like you know i'm I'm constantly telling you know I so I these days I i teach ah tech students I teach like so teach like soft skills and team management stuff but I I often use my experience in theater to sort of like uh illustrate points you know and and I always come back to something an old theater teacher of mine said where you know he would say like you can't get the park without walking through the right door. And so your job is just to continually walk through doors yeah until you've found the right one. and And the problem with it is that you're going to walk through a hundred doors before you ever even get a glimpse of love the right one. you know So it's just it's it's an exercise in madness. I've had some great successes, followed by some absolute valleys, peaks and valleys.
00:24:56
Speaker
but yeah and some things that were like, Oh, this is it, this is the big one, and then it just been ripped away. And it so you can never like I get excited because I have a callback and my wife will be like, Oh, that's good. Callbacks good. And I go, yes, but I'm not, I don't even think I have the gig until I'm on set. Like even driving, I could be, I know I could do a little show up and they're like, nah, turn around. Yeah. Yeah. So until I'm sitting or on in the trailer, I'm like, I'm still not, this is no, they're going to tell me to go home any minute now. And then when I get on set and we start shooting, I'm like, okay, I'm actually
00:25:29
Speaker
because they could send you home anytime oh easily and and shit changes on the whim you know um you know the so coming back to like you know the story of meeting john you know i think that these are one of those that's such a beautiful illustration of like There's, you know, cause I think that that is the sort of almost the counter energy that where it's like you, yes, you are in competition with these people, but you also are in community with them, you know, because youre we're all supposed to be part of a community. Exactly, right? and And so this is why like i think I think the arts become such a fascinating case study for me about the things that I try to discuss on the show of like, you know it's a especially something like a performing arts, it's a singular personal experience, and yet you cannot create it without a community. And that's and i and having you know the improvisers or the record collectors of comedy, we read all the books, we read we do all the research.
00:26:29
Speaker
um Taking some training over the years with some big name improv gurus you know you learn like. I'm out there on stage and i still do this even when i audition. I'm out there on stage and I'm just trying to make my scene partner look like a million bucks. And I do that because I hope they're doing that for me. yes And if we're not doing that for each other, what the fuck are we doing out there? yeah And so even in the read, even with someone, a cold reader and I've got a script or whatever, I'm still trying to make them look good yeah because then this will look better. This will be more natural than actually be a scene. ah it's a It's a sickness.
00:27:09
Speaker
it's that it's not Saturday Night Live is like, which is, which is, I had an audition years and years ago for Saturday Night Live. And I was boggled. My mind was boggled by the fact that I was like, so I'm going on a show, which is historically talked about the cast, group the group, the things we create. And you want me to audition by doing four minutes by myself. I don't understand what's happening. And it was, it bothered me the whole time I was there. It's like the dream gig, the dream audition of my entire life. And I'm like, totally distracted by you just want to see what I can do on my own and then put me in a room full of people who are trying to do things on their own.
00:27:46
Speaker
with the appearance of we're all in the community together. But see, this is so this is where my brain was going and I'm so glad you brought that up because it's like, it's this it's this this this baseline philosophy I have that's like, capitalism has been the number one enemy of art since its inception, right? Because but because those are the attitudes of someone who thinks, fuck you, I gotta to get mine, right? And that's how we close our minds from art, is is we you know you're in an audition and you're like, I have to be the one to get it because I have to pay my rent, you know? yes It can't be about you how can I help this art be as good as it can be. It's how can I pay my rent, how can I eat, fuck the other guy, you know? And yeah and that just closes us off. And I know that this is very like, wooey, touchy feely, but it's like, I think that
00:28:33
Speaker
to live the artist's life, you know, in its ideal would be to be able to divest yourself from capitalism. The idea that you would have a nest egg provided to you by someone so that you wouldn't have to worry about anything. you Go and make the art you need to make as opposed to the art you need to make to eat. Exactly. Exactly. We need more patrons in this world. We need the Medicis to come back. You're sponsored. Put your name on my t-shirt. I will wear that t-shirt everywhere. Everywhere. Let me just say this right now. Diet Coke, I'm your guy. Right? I'll get a clap to you. I don't give a fuck. I'm going to put it on my fucking forehead. I don't care. Yes, yes. Yeah. Second stage, not my stage manager, my old music director at Second City is a jazz musician, Jim Clayton, a fabulous, fabulous jazz musician.
00:29:17
Speaker
and He, one night I had done something in the improv set that was, you know, funny to me. You know, just a so just a joke or whatever, funny to me or I did something in a scene that was funny to me and the crowd didn't like it at Second City and I was like, eh, fuck them. And then Jim came over and went, hey man. And the jazz musician says, hey man. And I go, what's up? And he goes, this is a show. that that audience paid $40 to see. yeah And it's the audience that can afford to pay $40 for a ticket. If you want to do that kind of shit, do it at the Rivoli where you sell tickets for five bucks. yeah Know who your audience is all the time. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is the job. That's it. And so like it's not don't do what you want to do, but just know who you're doing it for. exactly So then I can go to Second City, and I don't feel bad about memorizing old sketches and doing the best ofs and understudying something
00:30:09
Speaker
but that I didn't write because I'm getting paid to do it, but then on the side I can still do my own sketch, my own improv, whatever, for far less pay, but I'm doing the thing I wanted. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it it's finding those, I think, I think, you know, where the pressure comes in is, is this, you know, so I'm somebody who's like, you know, because of all this, this network and this world and this pressure and the system we're in, I usually default to like, just go get a different, just go get a job and then yeah you know find, find ways to make your art outside of it by itself. Right. You know, because I think that that ends up being, you know, if we're in a system where we have to have a job, you know, which like, yeah, I wish that wasn't the case, but
00:30:48
Speaker
tough shit, you know, um I would I find it much more beneficial to like remove yourself from the art world, you know, then. Yeah. And then bring yourself back to it when you have something to say. I'm finding ways to use what I've learned in the art world and improv and theater and everything to help other people in the wrestling world. Yeah. Like I'm teaching improv to wrestlers or I'm doing sitting down doing one on one character, like an hour of sitting down with a guy going, You have everything in the ring and you work on that all the time and you go to the gym and you work on that all the time but your promos stink you do no work on that microphone. Let's sit down and work on this so that it's idiot proof and you can get signed. Yes. And so I i ran into.
00:31:30
Speaker
ah a guy in my neighborhood. He literally lives around the corner from me up here. And he used to wrestle for WWE. He was a jobber for years. He was enhancement talent for the nicest. He was the guy that, like, King Kong Bundy, to quote K. Trevor Wilson, stand up, King Kong Bundy on his weight of the ring, 444 pounds, monster coming down the ring. And his opponent, already in the ring, no music, Scott. yeah And so this guy was Scott. And you knew Scott was going to get murdered. But this guy, when when the wrestlers were on tour back in the 80s, he would come in and they'd tape four weeks worth of superstars in a night and he would change singlets four times and go out and lose four times, but he'd make more money that night than Hulk Hogan would. Yeah. Because Hogan's just on tour for the day. This guy came in and lost four times and took four brutal finishers from people.
00:32:21
Speaker
But he made a lot of money, but he's got a business mind. And so when he saw me, he was like, you know what you got to do? Take your improv skills, teach these people how to talk on a microphone, charge them X amount of money for a one on one, sit down and get these kids signed because they all need your help. And I went, that's a good idea. So I've started doing it. And I'm only offering it to people I know that just need that extra little nudge. And so I've started calling people and I had helped a couple of guys get signed here and there. And so I said, if I start doing this, can I call on you for a referral or like, you know, testimonial and they're like, absolutely. So I'm like, okay, so this isn't ridiculous and I'm not charging a ridiculous amount of money, but I do feel fulfilled using what I've learned to help other people. God, that's amazing. Trying. The fact that there's people like you out there doing this work, I think is really invaluable for the industry because, you know,
00:33:19
Speaker
I have friends ah who you know will will watch wrestling and will be texting about it. And one of the number one like things we all notice, because we're all theater kids, we always notice, we're always like, just release that jaw. Just loosen up a little. you know like For me, the most basic thing is, yeah moment um my most basic thing is you don't need to yell. You're holding a microphone. That amplifies your voice. Save your voice. Yes. I mean, that's why Jake the Snake was magic, you know, he thought because he was not like anybody else. Yeah. But, you know, and and it's and it's at ah and and you can see this is such a spin away. This is just but it's like it's the one of the things I always notice is.
00:33:58
Speaker
when somebody feels lost they think they have to match the energy by like overdoing it to sort of keep up but then you see them lose their train of thought and so now they're just yelling nonsense you know well and also when when in doubt and you truly don't know what to say guy or girl close your promo by calling the other person bitch. right that will set That crowd hears that word and goes, oh, but as soon as I hear it, I go, you don't know what you're saying. Exactly. Thank you. if But if you don't believe what you're saying, I don't believe what you're saying, and that's bad.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah, because I know you're a wre I know you're a wrestling fan. So I have I wrote down questions that I thought you you could be able to answer. and And I thought maybe I might actually know the answer to this. So like where I'll ask you, you'll answer and I'll go, actually, yes or no. Oh, I love this. So my first one is which I think is currently, yeah, WWE, AEW, whatever, TNA, whatever. Which wrestler out there right now do you think could be your friend? Okay. Based on, I mean, you could based on based on TV, you could based on what you know about them behind the scenes. yeah who Who is out there that you think could be your friend? ah Fuck, that's such a good question because there's, okay, so my brain goes into two different directions. The kind of person who I think could be versus the kind of person I wish would be.
00:35:28
Speaker
Right. and Both valid. Both valid. Yes. I think could be friends. I think um like ah Chuck Taylor. I think best friends. I think the whole that whole group. I think they really just, you know, the whole long term story of of Chuck wanting to say shit on TV. Like that's exactly my kind of humor. You know, the like, what are we going to do today? We're going to cheat. You know, like this. Like I just think that was magic. They they come across as such charming. people you know and And I think we would we would definitely get a along. The person, or the two people who I would wish so badly would be my friends are Eddie Kingston and Will Ospreay. Because they they both, i I have such a deep respect for them both because, not only because they're incredible performers, but because they talk so openly about their mental health, while still maintaining a type of um masculinity that very easily slips into toxicity but they maintain like a healthy performance of like a confident masculinity that I really yeah really respond to you know now now what's great here is that I have met Eddie Kingston and work the show with him and I can say yeah Eddie's super chill yeah but very open
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah. And so ah my first experience meeting him was ah my secret code word in the wrestling community is to drop that RJ is my friend. Right. And that and that puts me that puts wrestlers on the like, oh, this guy's OK. Yeah. Like that. it Like just dropping that lets them know that I'm a halfway decent human being because RJ doesn't suffer assholes very much. Yes. yup And so when I met Eddie, I said, I'm i'm saying hi from RJ cities, a friend of mine. And he goes, fuck that guy. And I go 100 percent. And he goes, all right. Like it was that kind of thing. But Eddie, open, open, Eddie will sit there after the show and just shoot the shit about everything, you know, not to belittle it or make it sound funny, but he will talk about everything that's wrong with him. Yeah. And and you're just like, oh, wow. Yeah, me too. Like a lot of, you know, so you get a lot of a lot of connections with these guys.
00:37:34
Speaker
that that article he wrote. Yes. A couple of years ago, like I not only, you know, reading it like just wept, but it it it it gave voice to things that I had been struggling with in myself and it gave voice to, you know, just just a new not only just understanding of him, but an understanding of myself by hearing his experiences framed the way he framed them. You know, he and because he's not he's not trained. yeah You know, like he's not versed in the jargon of it's very authentic. And it's, and it's someone talking about it in such an authentic way that it hits home with a lot of people. And also like hits home in a way of like, Oh, that's me. But then really hits home because of how rough it is. And you're like, Oh, I'm not by myself. If if this guy's fucked up, I can be fucked up too. Or if this guy has problems, I can have problems too. He's overcoming them very slowly. I can do that, too Exactly, you know and I think and that spins me You know the same thing with will osprey will osprey being so open about his ADHD about his dyslexia You know just you know I have such a um I have such a respect and a like a love for people who are willing to be
00:38:48
Speaker
courageous about talking about their mental health in public because it's so easy to be stigmatized, it's so easy to be prejudged, it's so easy to be misunderstood, misconstrued, all the fucking negatives, you know, and to to have a platform at the level that they do and to speak so confidently and so openly about that I think is so helpful for for yeah everyone else who, you know, they always talk like on Twitter, they always say things like, you know, i you know, that person you're tweeting something shitty at isn't going to see it, but your friend will, you know, and it's that thing of like, when you when you when you yeah it's the reverse of that, where it's like when the person on the platform is talking about it, the people who who would be shitty about it are seeing that now. And yeah, hopefully I also like we've socially, I think, especially Pride just started Pride Month just started for June. And I see all the
00:39:40
Speaker
posts from like AW. I follow DC Comics online because I'm a nerd. And all the pride posts go up. And the amount of negative yeah comments this year has gone down. Yes. it is less than previous years. And it's a combination of, you're just saying the same shit, we're all going to tune you out. But also saying that stuff is kind of frowned upon even more now. It's getting more and more frowned upon. And I don't want, if I was you ah commenting on this, commenting this horrible shit on these pride posts,
00:40:14
Speaker
your friends are seeing it. Now your friends know you're a fucking idiot, too. Exactly. And my father used to say ah ah he used to go a long way around it, but he keep your mouth shut is free, cost nothing, saying nothing costs nothing. yep And, you know, or as my dad used to say, no one would know how fucking stupid you are if you didn't open your mouth. Exactly. So like, like, yeah and then the fancy version is i Mark Twain or who said, um It is better to keep one's um stupidity to themselves than to open one's mouth and erase all doubt. Yes. Yes. I was thinking that exact quote because it's, it nails it. It's like, you might as well just shut the fuck up and, you know, and leave the mystery, you know? In in improv, Del Close to to always taught, go with your third thought, which I always thought was great. Because the the improviser in you goes, oh, my first, the first thing that comes to my mind. And that first thing is very, ah while genuine, it's coming from a place of gotta be funny. It's coming from very deep inside or whatever. And maybe it's only funny to me. That second thing is only an edit of the first thing. And then the third one is where you find
00:41:22
Speaker
common ground and something people can relate to. So it's a very much a, like a Rolodex in your head of like, ha ha, nope, nope. Yes. I'm going to say that third thing. Oh, that's a beautiful tip. I love that. Say that third thing, man. And even in conversation, like, yeah Not that we argue a ton, but in arguments with my wife. What I want to say is this. Nope. I'm going to say it this way. Nope. That's just an edit of the first thing that's going to get you in trouble. Try a third thing that helps you find common ground. Yeah. Well, and especially in relationships, it's like you're not, you know, remembering that you're not fighting against each other. You're fighting, you're like, you're fighting together. And so finding rings on our fingers, these rings said, we said we would do this forever. yeah So you're fucking stuck with me. Let's figure out a way to do this forever.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, OK, so so those all this kind of miasma is really steering me towards I think I want to ask one of the like core questions of the show please about, you know, obviously the show circles around the questions of friendship connection and and these kinds of things. and And, you know, the the the question of what, to you, does it mean to be a friend is purposefully misleading, right? And it's it's purposely, like, said very simply, but I think, you know, what's so fascinating for me personally is how ah differently that can be interpreted by everyone, right? and And so, yeah, I guess I'll put that to you to to kick it off, is, you know, to you, what is a friend? I don't, I have, I guess,
00:42:56
Speaker
I have a lot of different phases of my life and I have friends from every one of those parts of my life. like move like I still have friends. I still have a couple of friends that I met in grade five when I moved to Clinton. How do you do that? but We keep in touch. yeah you know we you know um I've met kids. we you know We've gotten whenever I'm back home, I give them a call or I shoot a text every now and then. We just keep in touch. yeah But there are two people that I met in the summer of 1985 that I still talk to. Not everybody, of course, because there was a lot of dicks in that neighborhood. ah But I keep in touch with a few. And then I have other acquaintances from that time. And then from my days at York, I have some really good friends and a bunch of acquaintances. And then in the world of wrestling, I have some good friends.
00:43:44
Speaker
And then a ton of acquaintances. Of course. They're not the people I text on a regular basis. And I don't need you to be there all the time, even if you're my friend, even if you're one of my closest friends. I don't need you to be there all the time. But when I have some problems and I need to talk through something, you're going to be the person I talk it through with because you've known you know me and I know you. And we're not going to bullshit each other. You know, I wrote sketches for a long time with a group of people who We all knew each other for so long and so well that when a sketch came across, we needed to edit. Somebody going, no, that's bullshit. Cut that out. That doesn't work. Move it here. And that's and we're like, great, because we would all edit together.
00:44:23
Speaker
yeah But then when I go to work with other people and they're like, here's a sketch I wrote. And I'm like, well, I love the bottom half of this, but that middle part, shit move that bottom to the middle. And now we've got a shorter sketch that works. They're like, hey, my child, you know, and I'm like, no, no, I'm not being mean because I don't have that rapport. yeah And so when you're my friend, I trust you enough to be able to say whatever the fuck I want. ah And you're not going to come down on me about it. And you're also not going to be offended by it. but also you're going to let me say it. yeah You know, ah I might have an opinion on somebody and you totally disagree, but you're still going to let me say it. And then you're going to say your piece and I'm going to go, Oh, cool. Okay. We can find common ground on this. yeah But a lot of people are like, you know, a friend helps you move a body hilarious guys. It's hilarious.
00:45:10
Speaker
um ah um I would never put my friend through moving a body. right i would I would hire some kid, I'd pay a fucking grade 10 kid five bucks to come help me move a body and never see him again. I know i don't want to put my friend through. If I'm a true friend, you are not helping me move a body. right yeah I'm sorry. you know A friend doesn't implicate you in a felony. Like, come on. yeah you know Yeah. I don't want a partner in crime. I want someone to bail me out. don't I don't want somebody in there with me. I want somebody on the outside helping me get the fuck out. ah do you you know you ah you raise a really interesting kind of uh nuance in in in the language of the difference between like a friend and an acquaintance and i and i wonder you know me personally i i've really thought a lot recently that like the pandemic kind of killed the acquaintance class you know like because of the way we paired stuff down yeah but i'm i'm very curious um you know feel free to elaborate on that but also i'm curious how you
00:46:07
Speaker
differentiate what a friend and an acquaintance is, or if you have specifics. There are people who I run into only at an improv show. I go to an improv show and I only see them there. ah i I did a show recently and I saw improvisers who are friends, but I haven't seen in 10 years. They didn't even know I got married. They didn't know I had a kid. yeah look it like So my thing is, if you didn't know that I got married or that I had a kid, we're probably not that good of friends. ah yeah but But we're still friendly. And if I have to hop up on stage with you, I can. And I try and i know you, and we're fine. But acquaintances are just these you know random people that are, when I go to a wrestling show, half the crowd are acquaintances. They all know me. They're like, hey, now I got my, hey, what's up? And I know them. But it's not like we talk at the end of the day. Remember, but remember I'm an old man. Remember back before the internet and ah back before cell phones?
00:47:02
Speaker
When you finished school at three 30 and you went home, you called your friends. Yeah. You hung out with your friends. You weren't forced to hang out with 1500, however many other people at the school. Yeah. You just hung out with your friends or you talked to your friends. When I went out at lunch, me and my three or four friends would go to the same coffee shop, smoke cigarettes, drink coffee, get our homework done and come back for the second half of school. Yep. Those were my friends. not the people I was in class with, not the people who was next to me at the locker, not the people who I had to suffer through sitting next to in assemblies or gym class or whatever. At the end of the day at 3.30, I went home and then I talked to my three or four friends. Yeah.
00:47:41
Speaker
ah And I miss those days so much because all of everybody's shit is up on Facebook and we all think we're friends or I've seen your and people are only posting the fucking greatest hits on Instagram and that's bullshit. So it's cool to keep track of everybody. But that doesn't mean you're friends. That's just it. And I think that that's where one of my own internal confusions comes into play. Right. Is is that, you know, So for me, you know, I do I've done lots of exploration of my mental health and my various ah states and it's not great but um but I ah Whose is great? Well, that's just it right, you know, I'm doing much better but um good but what but one element of it is this idea that like
00:48:23
Speaker
Because of some of the conditions I have, I don't have object permanence. And so and I especially struggle with emotional object permanence and this idea of like holding on to someone's love even when we're not seeing each other. And I think social media plays, it wreaks havoc on my nervous system because the fact that I can see people doing things, even if I haven't seen them in 15 years, even if I didn't really like them that much, I still, they pop up on my feed, I see them and I feel like a like a desire to be connected to them. Right. And it puts this pressure and then this um like almost shame on me for not being, you know, them not inviting me to something or something like that. Right. You know, and I say i i was in the beginning with social media. I was very much like, well, they all had a fucking party without me. Yeah. That's that's how it felt. And then when you see
00:49:13
Speaker
Fur like with the original post now you can it used to be just one post right now Instagram Let you put up 10 or 12 photos and I would always go oh man I didn't get invited to the cool kids party and then you flip through the pictures and and now you can flip through pictures and go oh fuck I don't want to be at that party that fucking assholes there I don't want to be anywhere near that party. I like those two people. I like that person who posted, but I do not like anybody. I don't want to spend any time with those other people in those photos. yeah So now I'm like, I didn't miss anything. yeah yeah and it's i thing too of like
00:49:45
Speaker
it's almost you know I almost circle it back to this idea of like go with the third thought. of like yeah Because I have that same thing where I'll i'll see something and and I'll have an initial thing and then I'll think about it and I'll have a similar. And then, yeah, I almost inevitably fall, especially after like getting sober last fall and stuff like that. like It's like, oh yeah, i why would i why would I have ever wanted to be there anyway? So I i got sober in 2012. So I'm like, I think 2012, 2014, or 2012, or 2015, somewhere in there. i'm Somewhere I'm keeping track. I'm going to say 2012. I think 2012. So initially, there was, I mean, that's part of a community. Part of the comedy community was you do a show, and you get you do a show for a beer ticket. And you'd get a beer, and then you're like, or you get two beer tickets. You're like, well, I was going to have two anyway, and I have that money in my pocket. I might as well have four now. And then you're hammered. And I remember the very first few times that I was there just sipping on Diet Coke or Ginger Ale or whatever, and I was like,
00:50:38
Speaker
ah part of me was I want to be in the community, but I can't believe I have to sit here and listen to these drunk assholes circle talk around nothing. Yeah, fucking stupid. And I would sit there and put myself through hell. And then there was just one night where I was like, can't believe I have to sit here and listen to Oh, no, I don't. Yeah, no, I don't. I'm gonna i'm buy and you just leave and you feel like a million bucks and you missed nothing. Yeah. The drunk drunk you hanging out with everybody. You people would be like what'd you do last night? Oh, you weren't there. You missed it. Yeah, you missed nothing.
00:51:09
Speaker
nothing not a goddamn thing yeah yep that was oh my god that was such an eye opener the like one of the first times i went out and was around like real drunk people and and was but was completely sober and just the way the conversation devolved and the the way they became these like clipped like everybody lost track of what was being said and you know i if i was drunk i'm sure i would have been right in there with it thinking we're following some kind of logic. But by being removed from it, I was like, oh, yeah, no, very nice to see you. But now that you're cross eyed by, you know, and and then you hit the line of I don't even need to say goodbye. yeah I got so good. I got so good at it. My friend Jim Taylor. God love him. He's from Winnipeg. He's in Chicago now. Jim Taylor had we'd always called it the French goodbye or the no talk walk.
00:51:57
Speaker
And by the time you realized Jim left, he'd been home for 45 minutes. yeah And I was like, that's the goal. That's what I'm going to get to. And I would do a show. And even now, I'll do a show. I say, thanks. I had a good time. Hop in the car, and I go home. like I don't even think about it now. I don't stick around. I mean, if I miss if i want to stick around to talk to somebody for five minutes, I will talk to them for five minutes, out and then I'm gone. yeah Especially if it's somebody I hadn't seen in a while. I'm like, oh, it's reconnecting. They want to see pictures of the kid, whatever. Yeah. So that that follows into the sort of ah the other side of of you know the question of the show is this idea of like what is community? you know and and and and And these have been things that I i realized, you know i started I started asking this question before I got sober. And I've i've realized in reflection, I was asking these questions because I knew where I was wasn't where I wanted to be. And I wasn't
Community and Personal Growth
00:52:51
Speaker
feeling like the community I had around me was the community I wanted. And so now,
00:52:55
Speaker
You know, I've basically like gutted my life. I've I've spent the fall of the spring kind of grieving that and I'm now in a stage where I'm like, OK, now how do I rebuild this? Not only rebuild it, but. How do you make new friends? Yeah. Well, and that's just it. Like, how the fuck do I, you know, like, because there's there's so many facets to it. And the idea of, you know, you know, somebody for so long that they know you and and it's like, well, now I'm starting to square zero. So how do I, you know, all these things. But but it really boils down to this concept, the community. And and it's another one of those words that, you know, we use so casually and yet we never really stop to consider what it really entails. No. And and I think
00:53:35
Speaker
to go back to the company at York, the VCP people like yeah i came where I came with John. And I mean, there's other comedians and actors and people that have come out of it too, but we can have a 50th anniversary reunion and all of us will come back. And I don't know anybody from the first 10 years because I wasn't there, but I have met them at events like this. And then when I see them, they're like, and we're like instant friends. And it's because we've gone through this kind of, They weren't in the trenches with me, but we both went through the war. They went through a different part of the war than I did. yeah And every show I've done, every musical or the stuff at Second City with that cast, those casts are my war buddies. yeah And I can count on them because we've been through war together, because we've been in the trenches together and experienced the same, possibly similar if they weren't there with me, but we've been through it. And so there was a shared understanding of the nonsense we've been through.
00:54:32
Speaker
yeah yeah And like good, bad, it's all there and we did it all. yeah And so when you run into them again, it all kind of flashes back and you go, that's my team, that's my people and they get me, that's my community. yeah So I'm lucky enough to have some stragglers from VCP come with me into the world of comedy and acting, where I'm like, they they've been through two different kinds of wars with me. but ah You know, and then I have that core group of five people that have been through every relationship with me that has failed up to this point. And they know exactly what's going on. So I remember when I met my wife and started introducing her to everybody, the guys and girls that have been with me the longest, they just were all like, yep, you're done. This is it. right You're done. And I go, Oh, good. Like, Oh, good. You see that? Like other, other times I'd introduced in the people I was dating and they'd be like, money.
00:55:23
Speaker
What are you doing? yeah And this time is like, Oh, no, you're done. You're good. You're done. Thank God. I'm done. Thank God. I'm done. Do you with with the idea of like what a community entails? Do you find that for you? Does this community evoke like The word I keep coming back to you in my brain is like the idea of safety, but I think that there's this there's the nuance within that where it's like, is community something that that like is a safe space or is it that it's safe to be you while still being potentially uncomfortable? I think it's safety, but it's safety in
00:56:03
Speaker
you You can be you because they they understand you. Yeah. That you they've been with you. They've been through some stuff with you and they get they know who you are. They get you. Yeah. it's But it's not like an engulfment, right? It's no, it's not. They're like, no, it's like, ah yeah oh, like, like I said, you mean I meet somebody I did a play with a billion years ago and immediately the entire run of that play comes back to good, the bad, the horrible shit we went through, whatever. yeah and And then we have that moment of like, there's my guy, there's my girl. That's you know how are you? But then it's so funny. There's so many times where I meet, re-meet somebody I haven't seen in 20 years, but we had that experience. And then it's how are you? And when inevitably what gushes out of your mouth is stuff you'd never fucking tell anybody because this is just my person. They and they know because we've been through it together. it's and It's a safety to be yourself because they understand who you are. they've watched They watched you and they went through it with you.
00:56:56
Speaker
especially those York years where we were all still trying to figure out who the fuck we were. yeah We were going through it like we were trying to figure out who we were and then going through play, which is a whole other thing on top of the school, on top of working at the bar, on top of going out at night, on top of trying to be social. And you just, it gets so crammed into such a small period of time. you reminisce on those four years of university. yeah But really, it's four years. Shit changes in four years. But you don't think about it like that. You think about it like, remember those great days? well and Especially when you think of like, you go from, you know, I had the the week before I went to UVAC, I was I had just turned 18. So you think of like the window of like 18 to 22, like, sure, four or five years, but like, holy fuck. It's formative in a whole different way. You're also like, somehow at the end of that four years looking forward, you're like, Oh, I have to be an adult. Yeah, kind of that. Yeah, maybe you're not. um But yeah, so these people go through it with you, but they understand you. And so there's a, it's not it's safety, it's comfort, comfort to be yourself with these people, yeah my community, my second city gang, some of the people I haven't seen in a long time, but are you know, you run into an improv show and you're like, Oh, that guy gets me because they understand and I understand them.
00:58:09
Speaker
yeah And our lives are in completely different places from where we were. but good because we know where we came from. We have to celebrate that. Yeah. It also circles me back to this thought of like, yeah you know, something I've been talking about in recent episodes is the the idea of like the paradox of life and this idea of like, in order to know other people, you have to first know yourself. And in order to connect to people, you actually have to disconnect. Like you have to know how to disconnect. And and yeah and it's this thing of like to be in community, you almost have to be able to see the individual, you know, like, and you have to be able to see them as the part that they are your whole community. When you say that word, it evokes this group of people who are all the same. And I don't like i I don't think so. I think we're all different because that's what makes a good community. We all have different points of view and we all have different opinions. And ah and I don't go to the same, you know, yeah but I don't go to the same person.
00:59:05
Speaker
with my problems with if I have a problem in this area, I don't go to that person I know to talk to this person.
00:59:17
Speaker
This is another one that I love and I've used very much I have a good friend who is a standup comic named Josh Gondelman. And Josh does a bit he got married around the same time, ah just before I got married. And Josh's stand a bit and resonates with me quite a bit. So he said, when you when you marry somebody, they say you gain their friends. And and you do but doubt no one tells you that you also gain their enemies and you might not know who these people are, but because you want to keep the house safe and happy, you also have to hate the same people they hate. sure And so my joke is my wife is part of a, she's a teacher. There are a lot of teachers in her board who I hate that I've never met and never will, but ho they're the fucking worst, yeah right? yeah Like if they come home she comes home complaining about this fucking person, I'm like, you're right, dude, they're an asshole. And that's anything I need to know. So do you have an enemy?
01:00:25
Speaker
James, does James have an enemy? um Wow, that's such a, you know what's funny? Okay, that puts me in, in a again, great question because it spiderwebs my brain. because i Also because i I need you to name names. Oh, I'm not going to do that. I'm never going to do that. Of course not. I was married and and got divorced a couple years ago and and i I had the experience of of both
01:00:56
Speaker
um You know Becoming the enemy of people that I had never met and then later on being like why the fuck did I do that? You know because of after the breakup. It was like I i Don't know this person um I also inadvertently became enemies with people I didn't ever expect to because of the dissolution yeah um um in terms of a personal internal enemy of like if someone were to date me they would have to hate this person um i think i think yes but i'm reluctant to admit that in the sense that
01:01:37
Speaker
I do try to live as peacefully as possible, and knowing that that is not actually how I enact. It's not possible. Exactly. And knowing that that is also totally hypocritical, because there's people who, if I heard their name, I'd be like, fuck that guy. No question. I think the reason I'm hesitant isn't because of some kind of high-minded, I'm so above it, but it's more like, i I would hope that my first impulse would be to recognize their humanity and recognize that people fuck up. And I would rather give them the benefit of the doubt as best as I can. yeah um Now that being said, there are definitely people who, it's it's the thing of, especially in thinking of like my divorce or breakups.
01:02:27
Speaker
It's it's you know, I hold less animosity towards the person that I broke up with and more around like the people who kind of like sided with them and kind of enabled them. Yeah. them mom Yeah. Those are the people that I'm like, yeah, you can eat shit die. You know, right yeah I had ah I had a relationship with somebody who I had been friendly with them for a long time and I watched them go through relationship after relationship and just obliterate these guys, just ruin their lives and ruin their lives. And then it was suddenly my turn. And and, ah you know, naive me went, oh, it's going to work because I've seen it happen. I know what not to do. And then I'm in it and I'm not doing those things. And it's still happening. Yeah. And so when it blew up,
01:03:15
Speaker
she made sure to ah take all of my friends yeah to be her friends, wipe me off the planet, ah tell them whatever they needed to hear to make them wipe me off the planet. And I and i went, oh, i will i I'm an idiot, because I saw this coming. And so one of the safest things I ever did was block them on everything. I just was like, there are other people who I've broken up with. We we you know remained acquaintances. yeah But I want this person for what they've done. They don't get to see anything from now on. And that includes people who stayed connected, you know, exactly. like and And it doesn't even come out of, in so many ways, like, you know, that doesn't for me come out of spite that comes out of protection, you know, that comes out of, essentially it comes out of self-love of like, I have to do everything I can to keep myself safe. So that means I have to not only get this person out, but I have to get their, their world out of my world, you know? And so in the,
01:04:11
Speaker
process of that, there was a friend of mine who I've been friends with for years who dropped me to side with them. Five or six years down the road, I'm at a comedy show and I run into that person. And they went, Hey, hi. And I was like, Oh, hi, like, I'm not I don't You chose your side, cool, but you're approaching me, so this must be okay. You're also still a person. yeah And then she said, hey, do we have do we have time to talk? And I go, well, I'm about to do a show. yeah And she's like, could we go for a coffee or something and talk? And I go, absolutely. So I made arrangements. We went for a coffee and I hear this um and unknown to me side of the entire part of it where
01:04:53
Speaker
the lies that were told to get people to side with her. ah At one point, she doubled down on something. And my this friend of mine went, wait a minute, yeah and called her out on it. And then everything fell apart. So they were apologetic. They were like, can we like I miss you. Can we be friends? We're stronger friends than we've ever been. Yeah. but it was nice to hear I wasn't crazy. Like i've at the time it was like, I think I'm the only one who sees what's going on. And, um, cause in a way you are, you know what I mean? yeah You know, for the moment, and but I mean, every story's got a middle, right? That's just it like that's exactly. Oh, and that's the other part of it too, isn't it? Where it's like, it's not like, you know, for me, it's not like I'm the innocent and oh, I'm just a poor baby and just, oh, who little old man. No, no, no. I contributed. Exactly. Right. exactly and yeah one hundred Because a, I'm a helper. Uh,
01:05:44
Speaker
But but to be able to reconnect and then find here the stories of the like we didn't talk for five years to hear the story of the missing five years. Yeah. And what turned them around to make them go, oh, we were unfair to nug or whatever. It was nice to hear. We've reconnected. ah It's tenuous, ah but it's working. It's fine. And then every now and then. a message comes in from the blue, like, I don't know how to get ahold of you, but i I found this thing of yours at my house. And I'm like, burn it. Goodbye. Like, I don't care. yeah you're I don't spend my time.
01:06:21
Speaker
thinking about this person who wrapped my then life. yeah And I have this fabulous life now that I'm thrilled with that you don't get to know about. yeah well Living well is the best revenge. Living well is great.
Grieving and Personal Reflection
01:06:36
Speaker
It really is. And it is and that's something that you know that's been a part of the grieving process for me in the lot in the you know the fall into the spring, is this idea of like you know it's it's it's the The best way to move through something is to just move through it for yourself and to not be like, yep why won't these people hear me? Why won't they? Like, it doesn't matter. Like, because you can't control people. You can't. No, you've made, they've made their choices. Yeah. And they're not even, that doesn't make them bad people. It doesn't make them evil. It just means they're living their life. They've got their own problems. They probably don't give a fuck about either of you. They just don't care about their, they've got their own drama, you know, like what's that even seeing that online video where the the guy is trying to do an interview.
01:07:17
Speaker
it starts with him like, Oh, I met this guy in the mall. And I'm just trying to do an interview. And the guy walks through the camera. And he goes, that guy just walked through the shot like he didn't give a shit. And this other guy just like You probably didn't know he's in his own world. Don't attribute to malice what is yeah what you can attribute to ignorance or stupidity. He's got his own shit going on. yes And this guy's just blown away by it. And i I've seen that video comes up on my feed all the time. And I'm like, this guy fucking gets it. Nails it every time. yeah like like when you The amount of times when you feel that this stranger has fucked specifically you. yeah Specifically you.
01:07:51
Speaker
They're not thinking about you at all, no dude dude. Yeah, not at all. There's the line, you know, I mean, I know it's an old adage, but I remember it coming up in saga in the comic saga about don't worry about what comic everybody reads. saga It's readable. Best, best fucking comic. But early on, you know, they they they use that sentence of like, don't don't worry about what other people are thinking about you because they don't think about you. You're not. You're so how many years have we spent? of our lives, especially our young lives, teens, teens, 20s, worrying about what other people think of you. yeah And even in auditions, in auditions where like, they want you to do two different takes, I'm like, they're gonna see what they like in the first take. Or or or not. yeah Like, who cares? But like, what they think of me, I can only do what I think I think is best. And then it's what other people think of me, that's not my, that I can't control it.
01:08:45
Speaker
That's just it. I mean, and that's, you know, that's been a big part of my therapy recently is just learning to live, like to tolerate the ambiguity, to tolerate the uncertainty and just like, let people in essence, let people be wrong because, you know, who fucking cares, right? well yeah and no soil you know And part of my thing, I was the, what the pandemic changed for me was I'm no longer a people person. I don't suffer small talk as well. Like I used to be able to bullshit small talk. And now I just don't feel like I don't have time for this. yeah But, um, for me, ah They can have their opinions of me. I don't want to hear them. yeah i don't I don't want to hear from anybody. Keep your fucking opinion to yourself. yeah Unless it's a good thing that I need to know that we need to do to change the way the world is. yes By all means, tell me everything about it. But when you want to tell me what you thought about this,
01:09:32
Speaker
third rated actor in a movie that I'm still not going to see. Fuck, I don't give a shit. Exactly. Get off your soapbox. Who gives a shit? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that's, that's, you know, again, this is something that I am not, you know, I fully, I will be the first to admit I'm not actively doing every day, but I'm trying, you know, I'm i'm working on it, you know, and it's, uh, you know, it's like working out James, it's working out a muscle. It's just got to practice. It's just incremental. Until you get it right. Exactly. Incrementalism. No, God damn. ah We could talk for hours. And I probably are we doing a part two? Is that what you're saying? You know what? I think we're going to need to. We're going to need to book you in again very soon because for sure, man, you're you're just you're an absolute treat. And I'm I feel really like I feel really grateful that just through happenstance,
Networking and Connecting
01:10:19
Speaker
we cross paths. yeah You know, it was it was fun doing that ah code names with you. And you were just like, I watch you on the show. I'm a wrestling fan. I know exactly who you are. And then you were like,
01:10:28
Speaker
i I think I dropped RJ's name, or you mentioned RJ. And I was like, oh, you want him on your podcast? I'll give him a shout. And like before the night was over, I had already texted him. He's like, yeah, tell him to get a hold of me. He's like, great, yeah. And you were just like, why'd I mind boggled that that occurred? Yes, i like I still can't believe it. you know like it just like you know And for you to be so nonchalant about it is just such another example of like, you know obviously, I don't know you well, but it's like the person that I have met strikes me as like so incredibly generous and and and it's really magic, you know. Well, it's a you know, we're again, it's this thing with where I'm trying to help the wrestlers. Like ah i I find that where I'm not particular is a skill to getting myself booked as an actor. I find that I can help other people. yeah I'm good at helping other people directing editing. Like yeah I saw a stand up to a joke once and I said, I love that joke. I don't know you.
01:11:26
Speaker
yeah I was like, I love that joke. ah If you made it, so but if you didn't just say the thing and just use the name of the thing, the specific name of the object you're talking about, rather than go grab the thing, it might hit better. I don't know. It depends how that thing rolls off the tongue in the middle of your joke. And they were like, oh, wow. yeah And I was like. take it or leave it. I don't give it like, whatever. Who am I? But I'm saying when I heard that joke, I wanted to just rewrite one word of it. And I thought it might work better. And then I ran into them two weeks later, and they go, I tried it, it worked. But not enough people know the specific name. But I have changed it to be this so it's not as vague. And I was like,
01:12:09
Speaker
That's, it is that's, that's it. Yeah. And so it was like, i I rewrote, helped somebody rewrite something. Yeah. And so I find I'm good like that. Give me your, I'm not going to change your thing. Yes. And I tell that to the wrestlers, if you have a character, I'm not going to change it, but I will help you make it better or be able to communicate it better to people. And people need that. People need that. Like it's a like you say, it's not like we're going to tear it all down. It's like, we're just going to take it to the next thing, you know, like just one step. Yeah. And so i'm doing one dollar words, I'm getting a chance. Like but my old show was very insulated. We'd have guests and we'd improvise and then put out the show. This one I'm having people come in and I'm having conversations with them much like you. ah We're playing a game while we're doing it. But when I'm doing other podcasts and I'll say the same thing to you as I did this other podcast or I just did, they were blown away that I would even offer. But it's like, it go through the list of my podcast. yeah And if there's anybody on that list that you would love to have on your show, I will absolutely pass your name along because we all need guests on our show. We would really do. Right? And so it's like where all of us are working week to week or if we're lucky, two weeks ahead so we can breathe.
01:13:13
Speaker
But usually it's just week to week, right? And so it's like I'd love to have four shows in the can but every week I'm like fuck who do I got this week? But if you see anybody on my list that I've done a show with if you'd be like, I'd love to talk to them Absolutely. I'll pass along their information no You're fucking magic you're magic. You're a magic person. i just like i'm i'm I'm blown away. um My last question is is, I always like to leave listeners on a little bit of an actionable step. And so I'm curious, if you have some kind of tip or advice, ah something listeners could try doing this week to be a better friend, either to themselves or to their community?
01:13:53
Speaker
I've said a lot, and i I say it a lot, that Instagram is everybody's greatest hits. They're not going to put on not going to put shitty things that happen to them on Instagram. if you have somebody I, it's, it's so cliche to say check in on somebody, but go through, like, if you've like, Oh, I wonder how they're doing, go look at their posts. And if there are like vast expanses of time between posts, that means there's something going on. And it's a, it's a quick way for you to go, Oh, I should give that person a shout. Like I have a friend who's like out, they were in the acting in the comedy biz and they're out and they're like moving. They've moved like four jobs. They're getting higher up and higher up and higher up.
01:14:34
Speaker
and we barely text anymore because they're busy. But I will when I when we had our kid, you know, he sent me a message that was like, here's what you need to know. Here's this this is a pro tip from somebody who's done it, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was just wonderful to hear. And then I didn't talk to him again for a year or whatever it is because we're busy. He's busy. He's a busy man. And I don't want to bother him. But those people that you're like, not the people that the people that you know, maybe you run into them. But it's the greatest hits of Instagram that people celebrate their victories, but they do not talk about the shitty things that are happening. Check in on that person, man. Like you see them at an improv show. They're like, Hey, would let's talk after sure. And they duck out because they don't want to talk. Yeah, it's
01:15:19
Speaker
check in. And it's such a weird thing to say, like, it's very cliche, check in on your friends. yeah It's so bullshitty. But like, do do a little work and go, Oh, fuck, I hope they're okay. Hey, man, like, let's go grab a coffee. And I mean, don't be like me and Katuji. We talk every day about we ah like, we send each other food shit on Instagram, like, we got to go get a sandwich at this place. And we never fucking do it. We never fucking do it. So we're going to fucking do it at some point. yeah Maybe the other side of it is to actually follow through. Yeah, following through is great. Make a plan and follow through. But like call your friend. Check in on them. so Shoot them a text and go, hey, dude, like I got half an hour tomorrow. You want to go grab a coffee? yeah Whatever it is. like you know i ah We keep bringing up RJ, but ah RJ's life is airplane hotel arena, airplane hotel arena. And then he comes home for to do laundry you know and then turn around and get on another another plane.
01:16:11
Speaker
But in those two days when he's home, he doesn't live too far from me. And i can we text absolute nonsense to each other all week. But then it'll be like, are you home this weekend or not? He's like, I'm home for like a day. And I'm like, do you want to go get a coffee while you're home? He's like, absolute, like I'd love to. And just give him a chance to decompress and tell somebody else. and yeah All about I mean everybody hates their job, right? Sure like No matter what it is, but just a chance to like call your friend and say hey I got a half an hour like tell me what's going on Yeah that's all it is Check in and actually do the thing and the other you know and that that to the idea of like the half hour You know like it doesn't have to be like a whole afternoon It doesn't have to be you know right like you can by the way it can turn into a whole afternoon Yes, yeah start with a half an hour
01:16:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I, um, you know, it's funny. I, ah I always frame that question around like for other listeners, but I, I more often than not, it's for my own, like, what could I try doing? You know? And I think that's another one I'm going to, I'm going to give a shot. It's only half an hour, man. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then if it's, that's the thing about half an hour is like, if it's great, it's going to feel like that half an hour flies by. Maybe you want to do another half an hour or even longer. And if it's. fucking like a rake on a chalkboard, it's only half an hour. exactly yeah yeah um So where are where can listeners find you? like where Where would you like to direct
Future Plans and Podcast Break
01:17:31
Speaker
people?
01:17:31
Speaker
Uh, I, I'm on most of the socials as at Nog Nargang. Uh, you can tune into the podcast, one dollar words. Uh, I'll get James on it so he can be very anxious about the words he gets. yeah We do it just an interview much like this, but, uh, my interview guest and I will both get lists of five words. And if you make me say any of the words on your list during the interview, you get a dollar for every word. But I also have my own list, so I will get a dollar back for every word. ah So the best I've ever done was a five-nothing, ah boy but which was because I got to four and my brain went, we got to try to get five. yeah um and It was hard, ah but I did it. But it's fun. I talked to, like, I've had Colin Mockery on, I've had ah glenn Anne Pournelle from the Great Canadian Baking Show.
01:18:18
Speaker
I just had Erica Cassapanen, who won Survivor, the Canadian girl that won Survivor. yeah um And then I have like just my friends from the comedy community that I've done stuff with for years. I had Will Sasso on. Will's the best. He's an absolute sweetheart. He's a hero, of mine. I adore Will. He's great. He's a great dude. Just a great dude. um And so we have a lot of fun conversations. And just you know everybody gets mad at the end when you find out what the words were. And you're like, fuck, I owe you a dollar. like a lot of And just like low stakes, but fun. You know, it sounds incredible. I mean, I would love to be a guest, but I also like to listen. Yeah, I have to do it. I had a really good from I had a really good one with Mark Andrada this week because we got we're such old friends and then we got totally we told stories about shows we were in and tried to like make each other say words. And then we just kept talking for so long that I was like, I guess part of this is going to be a hidden track after the credits. It's going to be 20 minutes of us talking about this bullshit. And I put it on and my brother, who listens every episode, he was like, That's my favorite thing that's ever happened on the show. And I'm like, Oh, great. I'll do more of that. Fuck yeah. Well, all that is going to be in the links. The links to your Instagram will be in there. Links to the podcast will be in there. Go check it out. Not one more time. Like just thank you. Like I just, I feel, I genuinely feel like really.
01:19:32
Speaker
blessed to have encountered you. And I just Oh, man, it was great. It was so nice to see you and Meg got the codenames thing. And, and we had such a good time because everybody sucked at it. It was like just very energy and that audience like wants us back. Yeah, which is funny. Like I want to watch these four people entertainingly tank this game. um And and it's so it's such a fun thing to do, and you just meet fun people. And I haven't seen Megan ages, so it's like just so cool. yeah um But yeah, like absolutely. Anytime, James. Anytime. we'll go We'll do that half hour thing. We'll go get a beverage or ah coffee a hot coffee. Well, I mean, I am in Vancouver, so it might be tough, but but it'll be a real... I can come out for half an hour. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. yeah and It'll happen. It'll happen.
01:20:26
Speaker
a
01:20:31
Speaker
And that's it. Thank you one more time to Nug for coming on the show. What an absolute pleasure it was to chat with him, hear all his stories. As soon as we finished ah recording this, we kept talking for another almost hour. Nug just shared all these incredible stories about wrestling with me that I could have listened to for for literal days. um So I just, i I feel so lucky to have met him, to have chatted with him and I'm really excited to hopefully have him back on again soon. If you like the show, please be sure to give it a five star review wherever you listen. It helps me out so much and it's completely free for you.
01:21:11
Speaker
um Normally, I would plug the substack here um and all the other kind of friendless goodies. But um as I mentioned in the last episode, I am taking a July hiatus from everything. So you're still welcome to sign up. The links will be in the show notes. There's just not going to be any new content for the next couple of weeks. um My plan to kind of revamp everything and start adding that kind of subscription tier It is still in the works. It just has been delayed and I realized that I hit a Massive energy wall that I needed to address before launching into new projects. So um Yeah, so so I don't really have much else to say other than thank you and I just think you are wonderful and Whoever you are, you deserve the best. And don't let anybody tell you otherwise. So thank you for listening. I will be back next week with one more interview ah before this season wraps up. So I hope to catch you there. But I'm not going to worry about that right now. And neither should you because that is then. And this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you and I hope you have a great week. Fun and safety, sweeties.
01:22:39
Speaker
you