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Episode 37: Swartz family murder
48 Plays6 months ago
When a family unable to have children adopt 2 troubled children along with an infant baby girl, their parenting expectations were extreme to the point of breaking. Which kid did it? Take a listen to find out. Your first guess is probably wrong.
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Transcript
Halloween Costume Fun
00:00:16
minorsofmayhem
What's up, my spooky bitches? Ooh, spooky season! Whoop, whoop! What are your kids gonna be for Halloween?
00:00:26
minorsofmayhem
Uh... Eli is doing an inflatable this year. Ezra is too! Oh, is she so mine? what a what ah What is Eli's? His is the alien. Oh, Ezra wanted that, but then she found a of a loss or raptor, one. Oh, I'm gonna ride a horse. And then for my little guy, he's going to be a bat. Blind as a bat? Because dad always calls him my blind little bat.
00:00:58
minorsofmayhem
Not blind to the bat. No, I'm sorry. As far as a dragon. um let she She wanted to do the Velociraptor, but um the... Oh, I like the dragon. The Velociraptor only went to like year seven. I was like, well, I think it would be okay. Well, let's keep looking. I was like, okay. And then... Are you going to be one? I don't know. Last year I did my makeup and then I just like...
00:01:27
minorsofmayhem
splattered red on my face and I wore my the husband did it shirt. Oh, okay. And then this one is me and then. Oh my god, we're cute. And he'll be warm because it's like a, yeah, a plushy little. Yeah.
00:01:44
minorsofmayhem
Oh, i love it jemy I love it. You guys write us in and tell us what you're gonna be for Halloween. and It's exciting. Whoops, I dropped my tablet.
Introducing 'Miners of Mayhem'
00:01:53
minorsofmayhem
So welcome back to Miners of Mayhem. True Crime podcast about minors who become murderers with me. I'm Eden and my beautiful daughter Brianna. Hi. That's me. I'm the one that says bitches and fuck a lot. Sorry, Brad. Sorry, Brad. Her uncle doesn't like it when she uses profanity.
00:02:13
minorsofmayhem
Did you know there's a study that people who use cuss words are more intelligent? You must be really fucking smart. You just said it. Whoops, sorry, Brad.
Crime Confusion and Wildfire Heroics
00:02:28
minorsofmayhem
So in true crime news, we have a 20-year-old man is in custody.
00:02:35
minorsofmayhem
for allegedly hitting a teen who was riding his bicycle, driving with him on the roof for several miles, and then pushing him off before driving away. What the why? I don't know. But for more information on this and other true crime news, you can go to truecrimenews dot.com. Or is it truecrimedaily.com? It's news now. It's news now. OK.
00:02:57
minorsofmayhem
It used to be true crime daily and then... Yeah, it screwed me up when they changed it and I'm like, where's my true crime daily? Yeah. So I would also like to talk about the North Dakota wildfires a little bit.
00:03:09
minorsofmayhem
on I'm sure there's many, many stories surrounding the tragic wildfires that we experienced with the 70 mile an hour winds. But being an avid horse lover and an owner of horses, this the story really touched my soul. Did a writer put this in?
00:03:30
minorsofmayhem
No, I came across it myself and brought me to tears. um Ed Coppersmith of Tioga, North Dakota sustained severe burns on October 5th as he selflessly risked his own life to save his horses from one of the North Dakota wildfires that we've had. He did save all 16 of his horses from horrible deaths before being airlifted to a Denver hospital where he succumbed to his injuries on October 6th.
00:04:00
minorsofmayhem
His family has started a GoFundMe page to help with burial expenses and to help cover the cost of caring for the 16 saved horses. And the funds would also help bring him back to North Dakota to his family. The family said, quote, the horses were Ed's dream and what he worked hard to build for many years, unquote. You can visit the Ed Coppersmith GoFundMe page for more information and to make a donation, if you wish,
00:04:28
minorsofmayhem
If you or someone you know would like to share their story with us and have us read it out loud, please send us an email to miners of mayhem at gmail dot.com. Wow. Yep. He was not going to let his horses burn. Rest in paradise. Yeah. I hope he's up in paradise with some of his favorite horses that have crossed the Rainbow Bridge already. Yeah. I hope that's where he at. He's out. In fact, I know that's where he's at. And I hope
00:04:58
minorsofmayhem
his animals appreciate him because he gave up his life for his animals that he just loved so much. That's crazy. Yep. You always, you almost like, like, ah I'll talk to you about it afterwards because I don't want to say it right now. Okay.
Wildfire Stories and Buffalo Gap Resilience
00:05:21
minorsofmayhem
I'll remind you afterwards. So for this episode,
00:05:28
minorsofmayhem
What are we doing today, right? That's my saying. I'm going to take a drink first here. Okay. But yeah, that's, that's what we went through with those wildfires were absolutely horrific. I got another one for you. You know where Buffalo Gap is out where we ride in Medora. Yeah. Okay. We've ridden to Buffalo Gap. We've eaten it at Buffalo Gap. We've done all the things at Buffalo Gap.
00:05:55
minorsofmayhem
We got drunk on the way to Buffalo Gap. Yes, we did. On the day we were supposed to leave. Yes, we did. um The wildfires burnt all the way around Buffalo Gap, all the way almost up to the doorstep. Yep. But the building's still standing. Buffalo Gap is still standing. Oh. It's still standing. I mean, they worked hard to keep that standing. They're still fighting the wildfires.
00:06:22
minorsofmayhem
down by like where my husband works. ah he He doesn't necessarily see the fires, but he sees the helicopters with the big water buckets going into the lake, grabbing buttloads of water yeah and hauling them.
00:06:39
minorsofmayhem
yeah this is i I think in all my years of living in North Dakota, I do not believe that we have had this kind of tragic wildfires before, not, not, I mean, Madora has burned. Yeah. But, but like, we had 70 mile an hour winds. I've never seen that. I've never seen it either. I mean, we have one fire that was burning really close to Garrison. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's something, boy, I'll tell you, it's something. and it
00:07:10
minorsofmayhem
number of causes. It was absolutely insane. And our hearts go out to everybody that was affected by it. Yes, I'm sure that this is just one story out of many that is arising from these wildfires. And like I said, if you have a story that you would like to tell concerning the wildfires, um just give us an email. Tell us your story. We will put it out there along with the GoFundMe's if you guys have a GoFundMe because There's nothing like community and people coming together during tragedies. I mean, we should do it all the time, but we really seem to shine during tragedies. Just saying.
Unraveling the Schwartz Family Murders
00:07:52
minorsofmayhem
So for this episode, we're traveling to Cape St. Clair, Maryland to the year 1984. So I totally duped you. I told you I was doing Ed Kemper. I lied. This is not Ed Kemper. And hopefully you haven't heard this case.
00:08:10
minorsofmayhem
What is it? ah Schwartz Family Murders. I don't believe so. So I am going to crack this open. Go for it. We're all about the good drinks. And notable events in 1984 included Ronald Reagan. Is that one good? Very good. Let me taste it. Which one is this? Orange plum. Orange plum? Yeah. Oh. Mm.
00:08:40
minorsofmayhem
Oh my. That is dangerous.
1984 Cultural Flashback
00:08:43
minorsofmayhem
Anyway. um Ronald Reagan. Sonny D. came out with their fall line of flavors, and yeah, they're pretty good. Brian is really liking them. Okay, anyway. So and notable events in 1984 included Ronald Reagan being reelected as president, Apple released Macintosh, and Tetris was invented.
00:09:09
minorsofmayhem
Oh, wow. Right. Prince released Purple Rain. Wow. Stevie Wonder's I Just Called to Say I Love It, you know, I Just Called to Say I Love It. I can't sing, but that song reached the number one spot on the U.S. Billboard charts and Hulk Hogan beat Iron Sheik to win his first WWF title. WWE. Well, back then it was WWF.
00:09:38
minorsofmayhem
Okay, yeah, no, I think you're right, WWE. That might have been a typo, typo. WWF. WWF, WWE. It's WWE. Okay, my bad. You're welcome. and Well, thanks to Microsoft for fixing that for me. Fashion trends in 1984 included bold neon colors. I dig it. Big belt.
00:10:07
minorsofmayhem
Love it. Workout wear. Don't love it. Love it. Big hair. Love it. Swatch watches. Parachute pants. Bomber jackets. Leg warmers, which I still love me a good leg warmer. And leather jackets. And I still love me a good leather jacket. So all of this stuff is pretty much. Except for the swatch watch. Now it's Apple and Galaxy watches. Yeah. But all of that stuff is like.
00:10:35
minorsofmayhem
basically in trend now. Yeah. I seen a pair of parachute pants in Walmart the other day. Yeah. I bought shit. I was like, seven parachute pants. I wish I would have kept mine. yeah I was wearing, uh, uh, some, like a overall jumpsuit thing with a long sleeve under it. ah And one of the, one of the teachers I work with, she's older, but not old, old. She's like,
00:11:05
minorsofmayhem
i I like your outfit. I wish I would have kept my overalls if I would have known they were coming back in style. You guys don't go away nothing. Yeah, keep it all. Keep it all. Be a hoarder. All comes back around. Yes, we are definitely going to be a hoarder. So Cape St. Clair is a small suburb of Annapolis, Maryland. And as for the 2010 census, the population of Cape St. Clair was 8,747. This town is home to three marinas, a high school, grade school, multiple parks, beaches, shopping center, and several churches. Okay.
Schwartz Family Dynamics
00:11:46
minorsofmayhem
So Bob and Kay met at the University of Maryland where they were both attending college.
00:11:51
minorsofmayhem
Despite there being an eight year age difference, they fell in love and were married 18 months later and the year was 1970 at this time. My birth year, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoops, can we edit that? No. Oh. Bob was an engineer at the NASA Goddard Space Program and Kay was a high school teacher. Bob and Kay were deeply religious and very involved in their church to include running, and I put this in quotes, marriage encounters, unquote.
00:12:22
minorsofmayhem
marriage encounter sessions. Now, I had absolutely zero idea what a marriage encounter session was, so I had to go search. And Google AI gave me this, quote, a marriage encounter session in the Catholic church is a weekend retreat for married couples to strengthen their relationship and their communication skills, unquote.
00:12:47
minorsofmayhem
and Me and my ex went to one of those. Yeah. Aside from being devout Catholics, they were also very pro-life. Every Saturday morning, Bob would picket the Annapolis Planned Parenthood clinic.
00:13:03
minorsofmayhem
And Bob would help neighbors with various things and Kay would tutor kids who were struggling in school. To friends, Bob was known to be a very positive guy with a great sense of humor, while Kay was known to be fun-loving with a carefree spirit. They sound like wonderful people. And they were both very committed to their careers.
00:13:24
minorsofmayhem
and I mean, they they were very care-oriented. Yeah, I feel... Well, that could cause issues. Life didn't revolve around their careers, but they were very dedicated. This is before they had children that they're very dedicated to their careers. I'm going to take a break, take a little drink. So I don't, you know, make those noises.
00:13:49
minorsofmayhem
So any questions yet? No, not really. I mean, you're just kind of laying down the platform. So, okay. A devastating blow would hit Bob and Kay when they learned that they were unable to have children of their own. Oh no. Not willing to give up their dream of becoming parents. Did it say why? like It did not. And since this was like but back in 1970, back in that time, I'm sure that
00:14:22
minorsofmayhem
there The options we have now were not available then yeah because science is just ever evolving. yeah so true So not willing to give up on their dream of becoming parents, they decided they would adopt. Now the Swartz decided they wanted to adopt children with troubled beginnings and give back per se.
00:14:46
minorsofmayhem
okay So in 1973, Bob and Kay adopted their first son. His name was Lawrence, but they called him Larry, who at this time was already six years old. Okay. okay Larry's biological mother who had abandoned him who was a waitress in New Orleans, and his biological father was allegedly an East Indian pimp. Hmm. Right.
00:15:14
minorsofmayhem
Larry had bounced from foster home to foster home, each one rejecting him for one reason or another to include bedwetting, food hoarding, and aggression. Well, okay. Well, all right. I gotta, I gotta, for a child that's going through abandonment issues and maybe not being fed because wondering where his next meal is going to come from. Right. But I gotta remember the timeframe.
00:15:42
minorsofmayhem
Yep. 1973 or whatever. yeah Yep. So we didn't have the knowledge that we do now. So, and you always hear like some scary foster stories. So obviously from what you're telling me with food hoarding, he probably either got his food taken away from him from other kids or he didn't get fed. Um,
00:16:11
minorsofmayhem
the lashing out. Well, that comes, it plays all hand in hand. And the bed wetting, that could be, I mean, not that all bed wetters are, bed wetting is a good indicator for sexual abuse. But I don't know if that's the case. I mean, some people just wet the bed. yeah Some people just sleep so hard that they don't wake up to go to the bathroom. Yeah.
00:16:39
minorsofmayhem
So, you know, I can't say one way or another what was the problem here. um One of his foster moms was so angry that she grabbed Larry's arm and twisted it behind his back so hard that it broke. So he's definitely suffering from abuse. Yes.
00:16:59
minorsofmayhem
abused, neglected, and rejected in each foster home before being adopted by Bob and Kay. Larry had made the conscious decision that he was going to be the perfect child so he would never be put back in the system again. This is from a six-year-old. He's thinking this way. He shouldn't be. No. It should never. No.
00:17:23
minorsofmayhem
so it was it this oh It was at this time that Larry would learn to internalize his feelings. He presented as very calm, never being angered, nor did he disobey. disobeyed He morphed himself into what he believed was the perfect child out of fear of not being accepted. That's so unhealthy. But then again, like the timeframe, there wasn't options for the help that we have today.
00:17:55
minorsofmayhem
If there's anything about this day and age that I would like to say kudos about is our better understanding of mental health and our better understanding of what can happen when a person is put through. Like the trauma and the PTSD and yep.
00:18:18
minorsofmayhem
ye I have to laugh, mother. So the light reflecting off your glasses is giving you a huge ass unibrow. So every time you're like reading and I'm looking at you, you got a huge ass unibrow. Oh my God, I'm sorry. So you guys, this is really funny. We've kind of discovered that our sound quality, although we have sound barriers on three sides, we didn't have one on the fourth side.
00:18:44
minorsofmayhem
And we've found through trial and error that it sounds better if we put something on that fourth side. So we are contained in this tiny little area with blankets that smell like shit. It's such a big blanket. It didn't doesn't dry all the way. So then it gets like that musty smell. Yeah. But OK. Are you going to take a picture with me? That is not going on Facebook.
00:19:14
minorsofmayhem
Oh, you don't think so? Oh my gosh, I do have a unibrow. Okay, that is going. Okay, you guys, that is going on our Facebook page because it is kind of funny. I do have a unibrow. I don't want to talk about it anymore. You see this middle finger? I love you. Oh my God. Mm hmm.
00:19:41
minorsofmayhem
So approximately two years later at the age of eight, Michael would join the family. Don't even look at me if my new friends can make me laugh. I gotta quit now. At just six months age difference, Michael would become the big brother. Michael also came from a rough beginning with also being abused and neglected, bouncing from seven foster homes in seven years where he was beaten and terrorized.
00:20:09
minorsofmayhem
Michael was a very angry and disturbed child. He was described as almost being haunting, like just haunting. Five years later, when the boys were around the age of 13, Anne joined the family. She was a four-year-old born in South Korea and had been abandoned by her biological parents. She was sweet and adorable and the whole family fell in love with little Anne. She quickly became the favorite.
00:20:39
minorsofmayhem
Oh, no. yeah
00:20:43
minorsofmayhem
Education was very important to Bob and Kay. And Michael was a very smart and fast learner. His grades were perfect, leading Bob and Kay to believe that he wasn't being challenged enough.
00:20:57
minorsofmayhem
for this reason they decided to bump him up from second grade straight into fourth grade. Now I'm jumping in with my own thoughts here because when I read that I was like what the fudge. I honestly feel like they should have tested the waters with some third grade material before you know just throwing him into the fourth grade because Things change in the third grade. um For me, third grade is when math became more difficult. And as math continually builds on the previous lessons learned, if you don't understand that lesson, it's very unlikely that you're going to understand the following lesson. And this just goes on and on and on. Until you get an amazing college professor who runs it back down to the point you got lost and sticks with you until you get it.
00:21:49
minorsofmayhem
Sorry, I was ranting on my own math story, which turned out fantastic thanks to my small town community college professor. Okay, back to it. Although Michael was academically smart, he was very emotionally immature, leading to a severe drop in grades and him acting out. i With working in the school system, I've noticed that if they're not really emotionally mature,
00:22:19
minorsofmayhem
for their age, they don't strive as much. They're smart. just They're just not there. It doesn't collide very well. Collide? It does collide. It doesn't click. It doesn't click very well. Right.
00:22:35
minorsofmayhem
so um and
00:22:41
minorsofmayhem
dropping grades and more acting out, okay, I lost my spot there for a second. Michael suffered from anger, outbursts, impulsiveness, and seemingly being unable to determine right from wrong. Now, Larry was the complete opposite. He obeyed all the rules at home. He obeyed all the rules in school. Very rarely did he get in trouble. But unfortunately, academically, he really struggled. He just suffered.
00:23:08
minorsofmayhem
Concerned Bob and Kay had testing done, which showed that Larry actually did have a learning disability. So working with the school, they placed him in special education classes. And that had a positive effect on him and his grades. It gave him some confidence, his grades start coming up. It probably made him feel like he wasn't stupid. yep He just needed that little extra oomph. Yep, just that little extra. Which is perfectly fine.
00:23:34
minorsofmayhem
Yeah, there's, yes, it's, nobody learns at the same rate. And everybody learns differently. I learn better hands-on. Oh God, me too. Whether like, if I have to read something, it just doesn't get the it doesn't wheels rolling. It's like, it takes me longer to read something and understand it.
00:24:03
minorsofmayhem
Then hands-on. I'm very hands-on learner also. When I tested for a CNA, all the reading and studying I had to do, it didn't click. But with all of the hands-on that I did do, the test was like common sense almost. Absolutely.
00:24:26
minorsofmayhem
Everybody is different, though. Everybody is different. Can we pause for a second so I can grab another drink? Yes. And we're back. We're back. So Bob and Kay were really well respected in the community. However, can I say however?
Abuse and Betrayal in the Schwartz Family
00:24:44
minorsofmayhem
Heavily? Heavily. Behind closed doors, this was very far from the truth. Oh,
00:24:53
minorsofmayhem
Bob and Kay were extremely strict and they held those kids to a set of very high expectations. Their strict rules included a list of do not watch movies, which included Superman. Can somebody tell me what the is wrong with Superman?
00:25:16
minorsofmayhem
Right? I don't know. Yeah. Although the boys were allowed to use the outdoor pool because they did have an outdoor pool in their backyard or whatever, they were under no circumstances to get water on the outside of the pool. What's the first thing kids do when they get in water? Splash. Yeah, nope.
00:25:43
minorsofmayhem
Oh, wow. Nope. That's really strict. The boys were constantly criticized. Nothing they did seemed to meet their parents' standards. Michael being the rebellious one was beaten on the quite regular to include being punched by Bob. Yes. The boys were punished even when breaking the most minor of rules.
00:26:15
minorsofmayhem
Larry would always try to calm his parents down during altercations, whereas Michael would do the exact opposite. He would back talk and refuse to follow their parents' extremist rules. And Bob had no tolerance for Michael's behavior. And the verbal abuse gave a way to physical abuse. I retract my statement about them being really good people. That's why I didn't say anything.
00:26:43
minorsofmayhem
so Which I understand like bringing in troubled kids and like having boundaries and rules, but to go that far as to not get water outside of the pool and well you know the apron physically. Yeah. You know, the apron of the pool, the little ledge, you know, that goes out to the cement and stuff. They couldn't get any water on that. None. That's so... I found it very... Disturbing.
00:27:16
minorsofmayhem
So during this period of time. So they're no better than the foster parents that they were. No, not at all. So during this period of time, determined to ensure that Larry turned out nothing like Michael, they tighten the leash on Larry. And he's such a good boy the way it is. Yep. And they tighten that leash even tighter. He's the one that doesn't, you know, just wants to be, he's the one that consciously made the decision to be the perfect child.
00:27:45
minorsofmayhem
And he didn't ever get in trouble. He tried to be a mediator and take the fights, you know, down. Yeah. Yep. They tightened the reins on him. in So one night after being told that he couldn't go out to see his friends, Michael snuck out anyway. And we've all done it.
00:28:09
minorsofmayhem
It's not a deal breaker. We've all done it. You've done it. I've done it. It's a normal thing to do. It's a normal thing to go through. Yes. When he tried to return home sometime around 10 p.m., he discovered he was locked outside. And that's not even that late. No, 10 is not late. It's just a simple fact that he was told no and he snuck out and did it anyway because he wanted to see his friends. I mean, come on. So...
00:28:35
minorsofmayhem
Troubled kids especially need that socialization. Yes. Instead of opening the door to allow Michael in, Kay opened a window and informed him that he was no longer allowed home. Kay then? How old is he now? 16 or 17 I believe. I don't know for sure. Okay. So that's childhood. Young enough to still be in the system.
00:29:01
minorsofmayhem
Kay then called his social worker to report Michael as a runaway. So once again, Michael would be entered into the foster care system. And on a side note here, I just wanted to let you guys know that the brothers did keep in touch with one another. They'd spend hours talking on the telephone whenever they could. And Michael did end up being admitted into a mental health facility with the hopes of getting treatment for his emotional wellbeing.
00:29:31
minorsofmayhem
Good. So that that's a great note. Especially in that time. But this left Larry very insecure about his standings with his parents. Would he be turned over to the system if he made his parents mad? And Larry actually had every reason to be worried because with Michael gone and Anne being the favorite, what would happen to him?
00:29:59
minorsofmayhem
It didn't take long at all for that question to be answered. Rules for Larry became even more harsh to the extent the only places he was allowed to go was school and church. And he was forbidden from seeing friends.
00:30:17
minorsofmayhem
Larry was told that he could start driving if he got his grades up to a B. He was struggling in one subject and they wanted that up to a B. So Larry put in 110% and pulled that grade up to a B, only to be told that it wasn't good enough and he could get his driver's license when he had all A's. Well that's fudged.
00:30:40
minorsofmayhem
Larry was not really allowed to date like the rest of his friends, but regardless, he did have a relationship with a girl from his school. And no surprise at all, Bob and Kay did not approve of the girl and Kay literally referred to her as a slut during the confrontation with Larry. Once again, nothing was good enough for his parents. His anger, along with the rest of his emotional baggage collecting since the age of six, was again stuffed down inside to fester, right? Because he's a perfect child and he's not gonna... Just bottling everything up. All of it.
00:31:18
minorsofmayhem
It's all bottled up with nowhere to go.
00:31:24
minorsofmayhem
Larry was very liked at school by students as well as teachers. He had a reputation of being very nice looking, well-mannered, easy going who got along with everyone. It seemed to Larry the only people who didn't like him were the ones who mattered to him the most, his parents. Larry told them that he wanted to become a priest.
00:31:48
minorsofmayhem
And he did that just to please his parents to stay in their good graces, you know, because he knew that if he said he was wanting to be a priest, that that would make them happy. And sure shit, it was heaven to his devout Christian parents' ears and vo voila, Larry was sent to a seminary to begin his first year in high school. However,
00:32:16
minorsofmayhem
Larry was unable to mean maintain the necessary grade average during his first two semesters, and he returned home to face the disappointment in his parents' eyes. Around this point in time, Larry began sneaking in and hiding alcohol in his room, which he would consume after arguments with his parents. Oh, no. no. Oh.
The Tragic Discovery
00:32:47
minorsofmayhem
I just want to like go back in time and slap these parents. So January 16th, 1984 was just another regular night in the Schwartz home. It wasn't until around 7 a.m. when a 911 call was placed that January 16th became anything but a regular night in the Schwartz residence. Anne had woken up Larry telling him that the then nine-year-old couldn't find their mom and dad. Larry got up and searched. He spotted their mom laying face down in the yard. Wanting to protect his sister, he steered her away from the window and called 911. Police arrived to begin their investigation. They found Kay completely naked with the exception of one sock
00:33:47
minorsofmayhem
laying face down with her legs spread in an unnatural manner just outside of their sliding glass doors. She appeared to have several wounds to her neck, a large wound at the top of their head, and was surrounded by a pool of her own blood. They found Bob's body lying in his small basement office. He was covered in blood and had several wounds to his chest and his arms. There was a chair that had a pool of blood around it the led outside to where they had located Kay's body. So the evidence kind of suggested that she was attacked while sitting in that chair and ran into the yard where she passed away due to her injuries.
00:34:28
minorsofmayhem
but it's We're back. It seemed likely. Oh, it's Leland banging on the linoleum. Oh, it's Leland? OK. I thought I heard a knock, so I paused. Sorry. OK. So back to it. It's just Leland being Leland.
00:34:45
minorsofmayhem
It seemed likely that Kay was attacked first, and then Bob was attacked as he was exiting his office, likely to see what all the commotion was. Officers spread out to search the area around the property. I've got to burp. I'm so sorry. Oh, that was a long one.
00:35:10
minorsofmayhem
Officers spread out to search the area around the property where they came across a bloody trail leading from the house to a nearby wooded area. The trail showed a barefoot print and prints that appeared to be wearing a sock. So this would be consistent with Kay making the prints as she was found wearing only one sock.
00:35:31
minorsofmayhem
The other frit prints were wearing shoes indicating that there could have been some type of pursuit leading investigators to believe that Kay was attacked first, Bob interrupted the attack, and while the killer turned his efforts to Bob, Kay had the mind to attempt to flee, but the killer tracked her down and brought her back before she could escape and reach any kind of help.
00:35:54
minorsofmayhem
Recovered from the search was also a wood-splitting axe that was caked with blood and hair. However, the handle had been wiped clean. They did score a bloody handprint off of the sliding glass door, and taking into consideration was that Bob had been attacked and killed in his office, and there was no blood on Kay's palms. One could almost bet that the palm print belonged to their killer. Larry and Anne were questioned,
00:36:24
minorsofmayhem
And Anne told the detective she woke up to the sound of yells for help from her father. And when she looked out the door leading to their car carport, she saw a man walking away with an ax thrown over his shoulder. She said the man was very tall. Now, possibly a coincidence, possibly not. But Michael just so happened to be around six foot four. Hi. So I got to take a drink. That's quite tall.
00:36:54
minorsofmayhem
Mm hmm. I got to open a new one, so bear with me. Yeah, six foot four is quite, quite tall. So Larry seemed relatively calm considering what had happened. And this could have been for the benefit of his little sister. It could have been due to shock or it could be that the murders were not a surprise to him.
00:37:24
minorsofmayhem
Maybe he did. Sorry, a little bit of both. Maybe he did it or maybe he knew who did it. Either way, he presented as very calm and collected. Upon questioning other family members, police learned about Michael and his fallout with his parents and that he had been in a mental facility. All of this made Michael a person of interest whom the police wanted to question ASAP. Now, 10 minutes ago, they want to question him.
00:37:53
minorsofmayhem
So Brianna, do you have any idea about who the killer is? I want you to make a guess and I want you to tell me why you chose that person as a killer. And I am not going to tell you if you're right. Or I'll tell you if you're wrong, but um no, no, I'm not telling you shit.
00:38:13
minorsofmayhem
ah
00:38:16
minorsofmayhem
Everything is telling me that it's Michael.
00:38:23
minorsofmayhem
But I can't... it's like my My brain is telling me it's Michael. But then I feel like there's a twist that it's not Michael. Why would you choose Michael? Well, you said he was tall. Yep. He has every reason right in the book to want to revenge on The parents that took him in. Abused him. Abused him. Send him back. Yep. So revenge would be. OK, back to it. Good good guess, sis. reasons. But something tells me it's not Michael. I just don't know who it is. OK. Well, police were able to track down Michael.
00:39:21
minorsofmayhem
who was actually still in the mental facility at the time. I knew it. It wasn't Michael. But who was the sixth floor? Michael denied any involvement in the murders and was in the facility at the time that the murders took place, giving him a pretty solid alibi.
00:39:39
minorsofmayhem
Lacking any evidence, their only hope was placed on that bloody palm print found on the sliding glass door. Now we must remember, this is way back to 1984. So all the forensic tools utilized now were not yet developed.
Larry Schwartz's Confession and Aftermath
00:39:56
minorsofmayhem
So does that mean it was Larry and you just said that he's seen a tall man? He didn't say he seemed tall man and did. Or Anne.
00:40:08
minorsofmayhem
But if she's little, anybody could seem tall. Anybody could seem tall. And she's only nine years old at the time. Okay. And trauma can make things not seem as what they actually are. Right. So since there was none of the forensic shit that we have nowadays, Larry snapped. The only option back then was to send the prints off to an FBI lab.
00:40:38
minorsofmayhem
FBI lab. FBI lab. FBI lab. It's a process. While waiting for the FBI report, the coroner's report came back showing that Bob had been stabbed 17 times. Smell that. I'll just taste it. Smell it. What is this? Apple. Oh my gosh, it smells so good. Orange apple. Orange apple.
00:41:05
minorsofmayhem
Oh, that's got a nice, it's got a little bite, but it's got a nice oh green apple. that That tastes like green apple. Granny Smith apple. Granny Smith apples. Anywho. So back then, the prints went to the FBI lab for processing. And while waiting for the reports to come back, the corners report came back showing that Bob had been stabbed 17 times. Both of his carotid arteries had been severed.
00:41:37
minorsofmayhem
Kay had been stabbed seven times about her neck and her skull had been split open by probably the wood splitting axe, just saying. And there was various defensive wounds on each body.
00:41:56
minorsofmayhem
So I'm assuming Kay was attacked first because she only has seven because The dad. Interrupted. Interrupted. Okay. And then she probably was finished off later. Yeah. That's my guess. The FBI report came back matched to 17 year old Larry Swartz and a arrest warrant was issued. Under immense pressure, Larry had a massive meltdown while talking to his lawyer and he confessed to everything.
00:42:36
minorsofmayhem
It began with an argument with his mom about his girlfriend. And remember she called her a slut, which would anger any child that had his first love. Then his father was angry with him over something with the computer. He went to his room and started drinking his hidden stash of rum. He went back downstairs and spoke with his mom who was watching the telly at the time.
00:43:03
minorsofmayhem
They talked about some tests he had taken in school that day. He told her he felt pretty good about one of the tests, but not so good about the other. And the final straw was when his mom started making sarcastic comments regarding those tests. At this point, Larry went into what I would call a blind rage to be able to do what was done to Bob and Kay. That would suck. If I came to you comfortable enough being vulnerable,
00:43:32
minorsofmayhem
Yeah, i I feel like I did really good on this test, but I'm not so sure about this one. And you start berating me? Oh, my dad did that. Fuck you. My dad did that to me once. Oh. So in college, I had a 4.0. I was on the dean's list. I was doing very well in college. And i on one of them, I think I had a B.
00:44:01
minorsofmayhem
but everything else was A's. We're talking, I had 18 credits, full load. I was working full-time. I was raising you and your brother by myself. And my dad looked at me and said, don't come back and talk to me until you have all A's. My heart shattered. Because I'm sure you're kind of like proud of yourself for doing all of this stuff. Okay, so I'm working full-time. I'm taking full-time 18 credits of college and I'm raising two kids I thought I was doing great. Man, it shattered me. I'm just saying out of experience, it fricking shattered me. Because I was trying to beat my brother who had a 3.8 GPA while he was going to college. Because you've been competing with him for fucking life. I've been competing with my brother my whole life. I was going to do better. Yeah, I was shattered.
00:44:59
minorsofmayhem
i mean it just I went from feeling really good about myself because I, and I, yeah, it shattered me. It really did. So the presiding judge called the murders, one of the most tragic events in the history of the County. Although compassion was shown when speaking of all the problems that went on within the Schwartz home.
00:45:29
minorsofmayhem
The court ordered psychological testing, which did show that Larry was in desperate need of treatment. With everything taken into consideration, the judge sentenced sentence Larry quite leniently with two concurrent 20-year sentences with 12 years suspended from each sentence. Larry would only go on to serve nine years of his sentence being released in 1993 on good behavior.
00:45:57
minorsofmayhem
At the age of 29, Larry would relocate to Florida and start a new life for himself. Larry would eventually meet and marry a woman 13 years as senior. And in an interview, Larry's wife said, quote, I met Larry through a mutual a friend, a family member.
00:46:18
minorsofmayhem
I had learned from his roommate that he had been in prison and he told me it was killing for killing his parents. He didn't talk about it much. Larry was a survivor. He had tremendous remorse. He actually had love for those people. There was abuse situations that were not tolerable. All he ever wanted really was a normal life, a home and a family.
00:46:44
minorsofmayhem
Larry was the most original, honest, compassionate, giving person that I've ever known. My years with Larry were the happiest years of my life." unquote Larry's sister Anne stated, quote, people who call him evil, you can't do that. You can't judge somebody from the outside and all those people who say he is evil, shame on you because you don't know him.
00:47:13
minorsofmayhem
He just was my knight in shining armor. I mean, I miss him dearly." Unquote. And I'm sure that you all caught the I miss him dearly part and are wondering. At the age, at the very, very young age of 38, Larry suffered a heart attack and passed away.
Anne's Revelation and Michael's Downfall
00:47:37
minorsofmayhem
In an interview 30 years later, Larry's sister Ann reveals the real reason that Larry murdered their parents, stating, quote, he did it for me. He found out that my dad was sexually abusing me and he was pretty sure that my mother knew and she did nothing about it. The reason my brother did this was solely to save me, unquote. I could not find any other information to prove or disprove this allegation.
00:48:06
minorsofmayhem
But why else would she say that? Precisely. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So I was left wondering how Michael turned out in life after going through his terrible childhood and everything that he went through. And unfortunately, he did not end up so great.
00:48:29
minorsofmayhem
At the age of 25, he began serving a life sentence for the murder of a 52 year old man over a jar of quarters. He stabbed the man 45 times.
00:48:48
minorsofmayhem
So we'll let me finish and then we'll get into it. I don't know if I want to get into it. This is a hot one. It's almost like that Cody Posey case. That's exactly what I was going to say. Yes, this really relates to the Cody Posey case, and that's why I, yes. So information for this episode was gained from sources, ah Find a Grave, The Washington Post, Killer Kids, and Killers Without a Conscious.
The Legacy of 'Sudden Fury'
00:49:20
minorsofmayhem
If you're interested in taking a deeper dive into this case, there's a book called
00:49:24
minorsofmayhem
Sudden Fury by Leslie Walters. This book was not available on Audible, so that left me out. The only place I was able to locate this book for purchase was on Amazon. However, Barnes and Noble may be an online option. I didn't get around to checking that. There also was a movie based on the Swartz murders, which I think was based on this book by Leslie Walters. um It's called A Family Torn Apart.
00:49:52
minorsofmayhem
And this can be streamed via Prime Video, The Roku Channel, Fossum, and Philo. Oh, I got the burpees, I'm sorry. i've not watched I haven't watched the movie yet, but it's on my watch list, so that counts for something.
00:50:11
minorsofmayhem
um This concludes this week's episode of Madness. We hope you enjoyed it. If you did go on over and leave us a five-star rating and a review, Um, and now I think we're going to open the floor to some discussion about this case, Brianna. If you don't want to stick around for the discussion and our thoughts, please exit and we will see you next week. Brianna, what's your thoughts? It, it literally had Cody Posey vibes for me. I was just going to say in no way, shape or form is murder. Okay. It's not.
00:50:53
minorsofmayhem
But however, how much can a person take before you snap?
00:51:10
minorsofmayhem
At a very young age, he decided he was going to be the perfect child. six years old he was six years old so he'd already been through hell to make that conscious decision as a six-year-old that he was going to be the perfect fucking child sorry yeah um
00:51:44
minorsofmayhem
And it sounds, you know, if his wife is being truthful, that he rehabilitated. and Did he need rehabilitation? I don't know. I don't know. Did all the things, and I'm not condoning murder either. That is the last thing you should do. Damn. But fuck.
00:52:16
minorsofmayhem
Right? Murder is not okay though. Murder is not okay. But how much can a human being take from the age that you were born to the age that this happened? What happened to you that caused you to do this shit? This is not some guy just out on the streets wanting to fucking murder people.
00:52:39
minorsofmayhem
But I guarantee you, you said that Larry and Michael kept in touch. yeah Michael was in a mental health and facility. He'd seen what Michael had gone through. yep Larry decided he didn't want to go through what Michael went through. yep So he stuck it out instead of running away, getting doing something to be put back in the... He tried to still be the perfect child.
00:53:12
minorsofmayhem
Did I interrupt your thoughts? I just... I sympathize with him the same as I sympathized with Cody Posey. To an extent, I wouldn't... Oh, I don't know. He didn't need to be in the setting that he was put in. He needed a loving family. Right.
00:53:38
minorsofmayhem
Every child deserves that. they were extreme. These parents were extreme. I mean, let's say like say that I, being your mother, didn't let you go anywhere but church and school. Where are you getting the outside influence? Where are you getting your outside socialization? Where are you getting your needs met? Where are your needs being met? Nowhere. Exactly. Exactly.
00:54:06
minorsofmayhem
But don't murder your parents. For fuck's sake, don't murder your parents. But but like what in that time, and also the time frame, where could you have gone to get the help that you needed in that situation? And in that year? Because you're still a minor. nope You don't necessarily want to get that.
00:54:27
minorsofmayhem
in the system because of what you went through before. And you're the perfect child and you're striving to be the perfect child. I mean that, so what do you do? Exactly. There's no outsource help in the timeframe. Nope, there sure wasn't. ah But murder's not okay. But murder is not okay. That's where I draw the line. That's where I draw the line too. I mean like murder is not okay.
00:54:58
minorsofmayhem
but I can see why this child snapped. Yeah, for sure. I get it. and And obviously the judge got it too because he showed compassion for everything that the child had been through. Well, and got out nine years. Come on. Also, think about it. If he was going through all of this stuff, but the last straw,
00:55:26
minorsofmayhem
was the knowledge of his sister being sexually abused? I could not find more information on that. I wish I could have. But you don't just say that shit. No, you don't just say that shit because people that, this is why people don't say this shit because other people don't believe them. So exactly I take Anne's words as very serious but I could not find more information on it. And one person- So if that was true and that was the final straw, he was willing to do whatever it took to detect her. Yes. That right there tells you he was a good kid. Yes. Yes. But murder is not okay.
00:56:21
minorsofmayhem
There's better ways to deal with that kind of stuff. But at that time... It's all about... Have you ever been in a rage, Brianna? Oh, yeah. You don't think logically when you're in a rage. No. You do think that you normally would not do it. Because yeah in my childhood, I used to drink my problems away.
00:56:49
minorsofmayhem
Blindly. you There was many times where I would get belligerently drunk, blackout drunk. And I would snap. I was mean. I had so much anger. yep i still I still have periods of anger. yeah That's why I'm very careful about what I drink. Because drinking, if whiskey is off the market for me,
00:57:19
minorsofmayhem
And I have recently discovered that vodka is off the market for me. It just, I don't know if it's the mindset before I go in, but right. So if he's already feeling these feelings and then he starts drinking rum. Yeah. Could you imagine the rage you would go into? Yes, I can been there.
00:57:49
minorsofmayhem
He never thought about murder, though.
00:57:54
minorsofmayhem
Nope. Never. Nope. Because murder's not okay. Murder's not okay. But, oh, yeah. You could go back and forth all day long. Yep. You could. Because you could come up with excuse after excuse after excuse, but then in the end result, murder is not okay. Yes, exactly. That's the same with the Cody Posey case. I sympathized with everything that child went through. Mm-hmm.
00:58:19
minorsofmayhem
But we had decided that Cody wouldn't make it another four years. He would have been dead. Yeah. In this case, I don't know how much longer he had to go till the age of 18. Since he was 17 at the time, I'm feeling like he got into that family at the age of six. Yeah. So that that's a lot of burying shit. Yeah.
00:58:49
minorsofmayhem
it's This case was another one that left me feeling sympathy for the murderer, just like Cody Posey's case did. I sympathized with what Cody Posey went through. I didn't condone what he did, correct but I sympathized with what he went through. And that's the same here. I do not condone that he killed Bob and Kay.
00:59:15
minorsofmayhem
But you can sympathize with what he went through. But I do sympathize with everything he went to get there. Yeah. So if you'd like to contact us for any reason, share your wildfire stories or have questions. You can email us at minersamahim at gmail.com or via Facebook Messenger by typing minersamahim in the search bar.
00:59:39
minorsofmayhem
And when you find us, please click that follow button. Our Facebook page is where you'll find photos pertaining to the cases that we cover and any announcements regarding upcoming episodes or just the podcast in general. um Until next time, please refrain from being pond scum. Life is too short for that type of shit and keep your happy asses safe out there. Bye.