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Dr. Mimi Hoang is Bi on Life!
4.5k Plays2 years ago
Happy Bi+ Visibility Day and Awareness Week! There's no better way to celebrate than an interview with another true BI-CON, Dr. Mimi Hoang!
Dr. Mimi a psychologist, educator, author, and grassroots activist specializing in the LGBTQ+ and Asian Pacific Islander communities -- and she was named “one of the most significant women in the bisexual movement”! In this special episode, we chatted about her family history and bisexual journey, the multiple organizations she co-founded in Los Angeles for Bi+ individuals (including LA Bi+ Task Force and AmBi), how to cultivate resilience, when and how to speak to a psychologist or therapist about your sexuality or gender identity, the cognitive dissonance caused by our actions not matching our words and how coming out can lead to more internal congruence, and the particular challenges of being married and bisexual. Though we do mention the negative mental and physical health outcomes we know are prevalent in our community, we focused our chat on the joys, surprises, and positive aspects of fluid sexuality and the value of building Bi+ community.
Visit Dr. Mimi's website: https://www.drmimihoang.com/index.html
Follow Dr. Mimi on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmimihoang/?hl=en
Dr. Mimi's Linktree: https://linktr.ee/drmimihoang
Join AmBi! https://www.ambi.org/
Dr. Mimi's amazing list of queer and Bi+ resources: https://www.drmimihoang.com/resourcescontact.html
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
Made on Zencastr #MadeOnZencastr
Use my special link zen.ai/twobiguys1 and use twobiguys1 to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr
This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/twobiguys to get 10% off your first month.
Check out Hinge's "Not-so Frequently Asked Questions: hinge.NFAQ.co
Visit tracysdog.com/ and use promo code “twobiguys” to get 15% off, and don’t forget to check out the OG Pro 2.
We're going on a Bi+ trip to Maine in June 2023! Join the email list to get all the info: https://my.trovatrip.com/public/l/survey/rob-cohen
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Transcript
Introduction & Bi Visibility Day
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Dubai, guys. Happy Bi Visibility Day. It is September 23rd. I'm releasing this episode early as a special treat for Bi Visibility Day. Happy Bi Awareness Week. Happy Bi Month. Happy Bi Day. It's bisexual everything. I'm really excited for today's guest. I've been trying to get her on the podcast for a while now, and she is the perfect guest to have on Bi Visibility Day. I think you're all going to enjoy it.
00:00:37
Speaker
That is all I wanted to say for this intro, so without further ado, enjoy the episode, and happy bidet!
Meet Dr. Mimi Huang
00:00:48
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to Two Bye Guys. We have another incredible interview for you today. I'm very excited to talk to my guest. It's keeping in the theme of the Los Angeles season of Two Bye Guys. I've moved west and I'm joining this lovely community out here and bringing them all into the fold of Two Bye Guys.
00:01:09
Speaker
My guest today, I'm very excited. I've known about her for a long time and we finally got to meet a few weeks ago. She's an internationally recognized psychologist, educator, author, and grassroots activist specializing in the LGBTQ plus and Asian Pacific Islander communities.
00:01:28
Speaker
Since the 1990s, she has co-founded three organizations in Los Angeles for Buy Plus individuals, including the LA Buy Plus Task Force and AmBuy Los Angeles, which I have been going to some of the events and having lots of fun. She has authored multiple publications and launched the Buy on Life self-empowerment series
00:01:49
Speaker
She earned a seat at the landmark 2013 White House Bisexual Community Roundtable, and she was named one of the most significant women in the bisexual movement. I agree. She currently works as the Interim Coordinator of Training at Loyola Marymount University and Clinical Supervisor of the LGBTQIA Plus Affirmative Therapy Center at Airport Marina Counseling Services. Welcome to Dubai, guys! Finally, Dr. Mimi Huang!
00:02:17
Speaker
Yay! I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yes, it's so nice to finally have you on the show. We've been trying and connecting and reconnecting, and I'm glad we're finally doing it. You've been a big part of this bi-movement, especially out here in Los Angeles, but in general too, you've been doing it for a while. I have been doing it for a while, and I'm still doing it.
00:02:44
Speaker
And yeah, it's been so exciting to be able to meet you, Rob, and welcome to, you know, La La Land and the Buy Plus community over here on the West Coast.
00:02:56
Speaker
It's definitely been really nice moving. This is my second time relocating to LA. The first time was in 2010 and the second time was in 2020, month before the pandemic. And the first time I was not out as bi and did not have a community to come out and meet new people. And I felt very isolated in LA and having it this time has been very nice.
00:03:20
Speaker
So before we get into all that, which I do want to get into, and I want to talk about the day we actually met in person, which was quite a lovely day at WeHo Pride.
Dr. Huang's Immigrant and Activist Journey
00:03:30
Speaker
Let's start with you and your story as we always do. So first, what pronouns do you use? I believe I've already used them, but I would like to ask you if you use any others. And how do you identify what labels do you like on any spectrums you want to identify on? Yeah.
00:03:49
Speaker
I use she, her, hers pronouns. I'm a cisgender woman and identifies bisexual. I also love the term fluid and queer. I use oftentimes as well as more of a community label. And I'm also Asian American and specifically Chinese and Vietnamese ethnically. And I'm an immigrant.
00:04:16
Speaker
So, and I'll, you know, share that in terms of my journey because I think it's relevant to my activist journey. So I was born originally in Vietnam and I was born a little bit after the Vietnam war had ended. And so my family and I had to flee Vietnam due to, you know, what was happening politically there.
00:04:43
Speaker
And I left, you know, my homeland very young, came to the US very young. And my parents, you know, they were refugees and had lost pretty much everything and had to start completely fresh in this new country, not speaking the language, you know, or anything. So, you know, the refugee experience is obviously different from the more typical immigrant experience where you've planned it, you wanted it,
00:05:12
Speaker
And, you know, you've gotten your ducks in a row and all of that. So, you know, we really had to start from scratch and, um, we grew up, you know, low income, um, you know, on welfare and, you know, me speaking Cantonese, Vietnamese and English growing up, um, and being raised by just, you know, really traditional parents who really knew very little about LGBTQ issues.
Discovering Identity and Coming Out
00:05:42
Speaker
Um, and you know, we were focused on surviving, you know, making a living. Um, you know, I was a latch key kid, you know, growing up, um, taking care of my younger siblings and, uh, you know, translating, you know, for my parents and all of that, which is, you know, I think a lot of other, uh, children of immigrants experience, um, when they grow up.
00:06:06
Speaker
And so, you know, when I started to kind of delve into my attractions and crushes and all of that, I just had no guidance. I really didn't know anybody else who was queer. And this was, you know, before really the internet. And so, you know, we were still checking out books at the library and all of that.
00:06:32
Speaker
So of course, like again, it just was something that I was dealing with by myself. Um, I didn't have any sense of what was out there. I didn't even know that the word bisexual existed. Um, you know, at that time I had heard gay and it was always spoken of in a negative way. And so I just knew that it was bad to be gay or to be associated with being gay.
00:07:00
Speaker
So, um, you know, when I had feelings and crushes and, you know, fold around with girls when I was younger, I just really felt like this is something I have to hide. It was really taboo. Um, I didn't tell anybody, you know, it was just something that I knew my parents wouldn't approve of. My community wouldn't approve of. So when I went to college,
00:07:27
Speaker
That's where I went to a large university, UCLA. And of course it's very progressive and there's lots of different social groups and classes and things. And so I was minoring in women's studies, majored in psychology. And so this is when I started hearing about queer studies and queer issues. And I heard the word bisexual.
00:07:56
Speaker
And I like remember kind of perking up like, wait, wait, what? There's bisexual. Um, but I was still just so repressed and closeted that I was afraid to really talk about it openly. Um, and so I actually was going through some depression, um, when I was in college, I mean, not uncommon for us in the bi plus community.
00:08:25
Speaker
And I didn't know why I was depressed. Um, things on the surface seem to be going well in my life. There was nothing that was wrong. Um, but I was just like, why do I just, I don't feel happy. There's just something happening. So I went to see a therapist at the counseling center at UCLA. And, uh, she was just so great and open and understanding
00:08:53
Speaker
And I would start sort of dropping little hints that I, you know, had thought about women. I, you know, fantasize. And she was just really understanding, very patient with me. And, um, finally she's like, you know, we have an LGBT mentoring program. If you'd like to explore this a little bit more. And of course I was deathly afraid.
00:09:20
Speaker
of even kind of dipping my toe in that at the time. But she said, you know what, we have a grad student who is bisexual. She's Mexican-American and also an immigrant and has, you know, sort of similar background as you. And so if you'd like, I'll bring her to our next session. And then you can just meet her and you can decide, you know, no pressure.
00:09:47
Speaker
So to me, I was like, OK, that seems like no pressure. I'm just going to come to my next session like I would. I don't have to do anything different yet. And so my next session, I met this grad student mentor. Her name was Mariana. And she seemed really nice. And I was like, OK, she seems nice. And maybe I can continue talking to her.
00:10:16
Speaker
And so we started to meet up for coffee chats and I, you know, asked her a lot of questions at first. And, and then I started to open up and start talking about things that I just never shared. And I didn't even know what questions to ask, you know, cause it was just like this nebulous area. Like what is this bisexuality area? Um, and so she was such a wonderful mentor, like a big sister.
00:10:46
Speaker
And so I came out my senior year in college. Cool. And, uh, and it was, you know, just this eye opening thing and my depression lifted. Wow. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I use that, um, example of my own life, um, in terms of understanding, you know, by mental health, right. And in terms of the importance of finding
00:11:16
Speaker
a therapist or clinician or mentor, whomever that you trust, who's maybe a little older, a little wiser than you, who can be affirming of who you are, all your aspects of queerness or transness or both. And so that was late college.
Building Bi Communities and Advocacy
00:11:39
Speaker
And I was starting to get involved in some queer student groups.
00:11:46
Speaker
I joined an Asian American LGBTQ group called Mahu at the time, and I just felt so at home with my queer API brothers and sisters. And I graduated that summer, but then I was asked to lead a bisexual student group. It was the first time that UCLA had ever had that.
00:12:13
Speaker
And so even though I had graduated, but they just didn't, they barely had any other out by students. So it was me plus another person who was a student and we created fluid at UCLA. Cool. And so we ran that and I really met so many other, you know, by pan queer students, by curious, you know, students who were questioning
00:12:40
Speaker
And I really started to learn so much more about the community and my phobia and dealing with, you know, the gay world, the straight world and all of that. Um, and so that's when my leadership started in 99. Cool. Ran it for a couple of years. And then I started grad school. I decided to get my PhD in clinical psychology. And so I moved, uh, down to San Diego, uh, to go to Alliant International University.
00:13:09
Speaker
And I got involved in some other queer, you know, organizations there. But then I decided to transfer back to LA because I was looking for, you know, the right advisor and more of a multicultural emphasis in my program. So I did that and I graduated from the LA campus of Alliance and I finished my dissertation, which was on by identity.
00:13:39
Speaker
for women. Cool. Yeah. And, uh, so that then got me wanting to find the bi community in LA and, uh, buying at LA was a, uh, social group, uh, back in the eighties and nineties. Um, and I had attended a couple of events when I was in college and all that, but they had disbanded.
00:14:08
Speaker
by the time that I finished grad school. And so I was like, you know, we got to fix this. There's got to be some kind of bi group or entity in Los Angeles. And so I put out a message on the listserv. There was like a bi listserv called label L A B L the L A bisexual listserv.
00:14:33
Speaker
That's good. Yeah, right. And I said, does anyone want to meet up monthly for like a coffee chat? And so we met up, there was like around 10 of us. This was in 2006. And we got together and said, yeah, let's create a group. And what should we call it? And we decided to call it AMB, which stood for a meeting of by individuals.
00:15:01
Speaker
Yes. I see you have a t-shirt. I'm wearing my shirt. Yay. Yeah. So, you know, we love our acronyms. We love our puns. And so it just felt like the perfect acronym. And so that was, you know, our group and we ran it and we met monthly and we tried to do everything. We had social events, coffee events. We did panels. We went to conferences.
00:15:30
Speaker
And we started marching in LA pride. And then in 2008, another bi leader, Joe Jerry Musari approached me and said, do you want to help me start like more of a nonprofit group? And I said, sure. And so he and I and a few other leaders, we got together and we created the LA bi task force.
00:15:59
Speaker
And so we decided that ambi, at the time is how it was pronounced, would be a social group. And the LA by task force would be like the educational nonprofit advocacy group. That way we don't have to do everything. Except you still had to do everything since you're involved in both. I was involved in both, of course.
00:16:24
Speaker
But after a while, you know, it got to be too much. And I also finished grad school and became licensed. And so I stepped away.
00:16:33
Speaker
from the leadership of Ambi, which later then became rebranded as Ambi, like I Am By. This is what's going to be one of my questions for you because RJ pronounced it Ambi, but I was like, I Am By, and I didn't know it was an acronym. It's interesting that this pronunciation drama is also baked into the actual evolution of it.
00:17:01
Speaker
organization. Yes, yes. You know, talk about sort of confusion, identity confusion. It is a very bi thing to have two ways of pronouncing the groups. Isn't it? There you go. Our group is bi in so many ways. But yes, so you may hear some people sing, calling it ambide, some people
00:17:23
Speaker
I think more of the people who knew the earlier stages might be calling it ambi. So they're not wrong, they're just honoring the legacy of the group. The legacy, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, I started to focus more on the LA by Task Force.
00:17:41
Speaker
Actually, we've recently also rebranded to the LA Buy Plus Task Force to be intentional of bi, pan, fluid, queer, homie identities under the whole umbrella, the non-monosexual umbrella. But so I became more focused on that and that really helped me connect with leaders that were across the country.
00:18:02
Speaker
because we were doing more education and more advocacy and social justice efforts. And so this really helped us collaborate with, you know, other amazing folks doing things in New York and Boston and Minneapolis and San Francisco, right? And so that's when the whole White House by roundtable started happening in 2013.
00:18:29
Speaker
And so that was just a phenomenal experience. It was, you know, we were really trailblazing. And the first time that the White House was really recognizing the bisexual community, right? Like I think they knew we existed, but we were always lumped in together with the L and the G and the T. And here we were, we got our own time, our own space to just talk about the beat.
00:18:57
Speaker
And so at this amazing groundbreaking meeting, we were split into groups to present on research and statistics impacting our community. I was assigned to the mental health portion just because of my, you know, psychologist background. And we presented data
00:19:21
Speaker
Uh, and there are other groups presenting on domestic violence, on substance abuse, on other health factors. And as we were each going up there presenting, we started noticing a pattern of all the data, which was that basically hetero people had better health or better outcomes than gay and lesbian people, which were like, okay, we kind of like knew that. But.
00:19:50
Speaker
the bisexual community was doing even worse than the gay community in all across the board. I mean, it was just consistent. So it was just really, you know, staggering and obvious. And it really got me so concerned. And so when I came back to LA, I was like, we need to pay attention to this. You know, our community has the worst health
00:20:20
Speaker
indicators were more at risk of depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicidality. That's what led to the LA by Task Force doing a community needs assessment in the greater LA community because we wanted to check in with our community. So we did do that. We were able to collect data. What did you learn from that? And when was that?
00:20:50
Speaker
This was in 2015 and it is available on our website. Um, but yes, we learned that the community is struggling, um, with feeling connected, um, connected to both, you know, gay and lesbian communities and also straight communities. And we want to feel more connected to the gay and lesbian communities.
00:21:18
Speaker
We also asked about whether or not people were coming out to their health providers, both medical health and mental health providers.
Therapy and Understanding Bisexuality
00:21:29
Speaker
And some of them were. More people were coming out to their mental health providers than their medical health providers, which, you know, kind of makes sense. Right.
00:21:41
Speaker
if you're taking the step to go to do that in the first place, hopefully you're aware enough that that's something important to talk about. Exactly. You're gonna talk about the emotional stuff and maybe dating and all that.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. You said when you first saw a therapist, you dropped a few hints. I think I wrote an email to the therapist ahead of time being like, I am questioning my sexuality and I thought I would drop some hints when I got there. But when I got there, she goes, so in your email, you said you're questioning your sexuality. Let's talk about that. She like knew that that was the place to start. Fantastic. I guess I'll talk about that. Yes.
00:22:25
Speaker
Well, you know, whatever works, um, you know, but yeah, I, uh, through this needs assessment, we asked about that and we got so many comments that people are leaving about, um, how their therapists or how their medical providers were reacting to finding out that they're bi.
00:22:46
Speaker
And there were some positive, you know, experiences and responses. There were some that were kind of neutral or maybe they didn't know very much. And so the person felt like they had to educate their provider. But then there were a lot of comments about biphobic responses, thinking it was the same thing as being gay or lesbian, dismissing it or even over medicating.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah. And so as a psychologist, this obviously really concerned me. And so that's when I started to really focus more on training, training other mental health providers and helping professionals in general. And so I started to provide more continuing education, more workshops and clinical trainings.
00:23:43
Speaker
And, you know, a few years later, that's when I launched my buy on life self empowerment series, because I wanted to not only work with the providers, but I wanted to sort of marry my, my activist hat and my clinical hat together, you know, into this, um, series that would be a blend of coaching, a blend of education.
00:24:11
Speaker
and really using myself, but also using my clinical background. And so I ran that and that was really great. The pandemic hit, so it did put a pause on that plus many other things, but this is still something that I want to pursue. It's really to uplift my community.
00:24:33
Speaker
Awesome. Cool. Well, yeah, when you, I mean, when you marry like the things about you that are both important to your identity and also that you have a lot of training and experience and biology and well, that's when you're doing something really great that, you know, no one else could be doing, right? And that's like very powerful. I hope so.
00:24:58
Speaker
And now word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. You know, when I was first recognizing my bisexuality and coming to terms with it, I thought it was something I would take to the grave and never tell anyone. I was very stuck focusing on problems instead of solutions.
00:25:14
Speaker
I was very wrapped up in fear of what would happen if I came out and I was not really thinking of all the joy and positive changes that would come from coming out. One of the things that really changed things for me was therapy and finding a therapist. It's helped me to stop focusing on those fears and it's helped me to be more authentic, get in touch with my feelings, speak my truth, and relate and communicate better with other people.
00:25:38
Speaker
There's this perception that if you see a therapist, it means something's, quote, wrong. I totally disagree. I think everyone can benefit from talk therapy. So if you are thinking of giving therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great option. Full disclosure, I have not tried BetterHelp myself. I already have a therapist for many years who I love, but BetterHelp is great for many people. It's convenient, it's accessible, it's affordable, and it's entirely online.
00:26:04
Speaker
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00:26:31
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:28:38
Speaker
So you, I mean, you've literally gone through all of my questions and answered everything. So now we can dig in even deeper. Literally, my final question was, what did you do at the White House and tell us all about that? But I have follow ups for everything and everything you said sparked some stuff in me.
00:28:57
Speaker
I want to go back to you first, if you don't mind. I think it's really quite remarkable that you left Vietnam at a young age and within your own lifetime, one generation went from survival mode to
00:29:18
Speaker
thriving and self-factualization and being able to focus on this part of you. Even when you came here, it was different than it is today where you didn't see stuff, you didn't hear about bisexuality. You kind of explained this, but I guess I'm curious,
00:29:36
Speaker
were in a nice position where they set you up with a mentor and somebody noticed this and you heard
Resilience Through Community Support
00:29:43
Speaker
the word bye. But what do you think was really the tipping point for you? And I don't know, were you anxious? Was it hard to do this? I don't know what my question is. Oh, yes. Yeah. How did you do it? I mean, how did I do it? Yeah. I mean, I've thought about this a lot because
00:30:00
Speaker
you know, it's about how was I resilient, right? How did I overcome all these odds, all these challenges, all this invisibility and erasure and oppression, right? As a woman, as a woman of color, as an immigrant, as a first-generation college student,
00:30:20
Speaker
And I think in some ways, me being a latchkey kid really developed a sense of independence and learning to speak up when I had to. And my parents were just, they were survivors. And I saw how they were resourceful, how they worked multiple jobs and overcame so much.
00:30:48
Speaker
So seeing that was just really inspiring. And then me developing my own leadership, you know, when I was in high school, I was in student government and so I was already sort of this like little leader. And in some ways it was great. In some ways it made it harder because when I was imagining coming out,
00:31:16
Speaker
It was like, wow, if I come out and I'm already known, like well known, this is going to be really a big deal. Right. And, um, so I think in some ways me being able to go ask for help, you know, obviously I was a psych major, so I already was, you know, familiar with the idea of a therapist. Um,
00:31:44
Speaker
So going to see somebody and asking for help, I think is such an important, a part of coping and, um, you know, not going it alone. Right. And I think in growing up in an Asian American immigrant community, I learned about collectivism and community and the importance of strength in numbers. And so in all the
00:32:13
Speaker
important steps that I took in my activism. It was about creating community, right? Fluid at UCLA, Ambi or Ambi, and then later the LA by Task Force. I never did this alone. You know, it was always with other people so that we could count on each other. And so these are things that I tell other people is don't go it alone, ask for help,
00:32:42
Speaker
find mentors or find an affirmative therapist and that will help you.
00:32:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's great advice. I think part of why I didn't realize it until a little later in life was because I had this very independent sort of mindset growing up and I definitely grew up with the idea that therapy means you're fixing something that's wrong, which is not the case. What I learned when I got to therapy was it doesn't mean there's anything wrong at all. In fact,
00:33:16
Speaker
going there and being able to be vulnerable and accept that you need some help is a sign of strength and is just great for anyone to have someone to talk to about whatever without judgment. Yeah, right. No, exactly.
00:33:35
Speaker
And it's funny, I was on student government too, and I think I had that same fear of desire to fit in. So I wanna get to the community thing in a second, but you also mentioned this resilience you had, and how can people develop that kind of resilience? What if you're so scared of all this stuff we're talking about? How can you cultivate that, or how do you work with your clients on cultivating that? Yeah, I mean, I think that it takes small steps,
00:34:05
Speaker
And there's not a one size fits all, but I think fortunately nowadays there is the internet and social media. There's so much information that you can find. Hopefully people are finding trusted and accurate information. And fortunately right now I think there's more and more visibility of different by groups and pan groups and influencers and leaders and celebrities are coming out.
00:34:36
Speaker
So there's a lot more ways to get information, even if you're not out, even if you're not in therapy already. Um, if you are in therapy, bring it up, you know, like you did, it could be in a very bold, splashy way or like me in a shy, you know, dropping hints way. And hopefully your therapist is going to respond well.
00:35:04
Speaker
and help you explore and hopefully they have some education on it. Even if they don't, if they're willing to learn and educate themselves, that's great. If they're really not and they're starting to say things that seem questionable or even are microaggressions, then bring it up if you feel brave enough or change therapists. I think people don't realize that you can actually change therapists just like you can change your doctor.
00:35:35
Speaker
And there are, you know, LGBTQ affirmative therapists. I have a therapist referral list here in Southern Cal. If people want to contact me, but there are many more agencies now that are training specifically affirmative therapists. And so that's another way to go about it. But take a step by step.
00:36:02
Speaker
And, you know, I've been focusing more and more on bi-wellness. You know, I think after that White House experience, we've been talking lots and lots about like the sad statistics, right? Like, you know, all the rates of depression and all the biphobia that's happening and everything. And I mean, it's good to know, but I also want to work on the positive psychology.
00:36:31
Speaker
which is kind of what we're talking about, right? Which is not just what makes us unwell, but what makes us well, right? When I first sort of got into this community and went to my first buy request meeting in New York, like these things come up a lot, you know, buy people have worse mental health outcomes and worse physical health outcomes and are isolated and all these like negative things. And right, it is important to know. And thankfully at the same time, I was finding this community which
00:37:01
Speaker
affirmed me, but it was sort of like a little mental gymnastics. And so, yes, let's, let's talk about like, given given the statistics, which we have talked about on this podcast, many, many times, how, like, how do we cultivate bi wellness? And, you know,
00:37:17
Speaker
there are things that are hard for me, but coming out and embracing my blindness and actually really cherishing it has had such a positive impact in my life. And I see the world in this new, beautiful way now that like makes so much more sense to me for all the struggles that's brought a lot of joy and positivity into my life. So has it done that for you? And what are some positive aspects of this identity and how do we cultivate that as a community?
00:37:47
Speaker
Yes. Well, I love to talk about that because it is so important. And I think you and I in some ways have intuitively maybe done some of the things that I'm sort of like thinking more about. And it actually relates to my dissertation. So when I was in grad school, I wanted to study more about bi identity and internalized biphobia.
Research on Bi Identity
00:38:17
Speaker
And what I found was that there was a direct correlation. And when you look at by identity, I was looking at by identity congruence. So that's kind of a more nerdy, sciency term. But when you have more congruence in your identity, meaning that the different parts of your sexuality, your attractions, your fantasies, your behaviors, your identity,
00:38:46
Speaker
When that is more congruent, you actually have lower internalized biphobia. This was among women in my study. You may have heard of cognitive dissonance theory, where when your thoughts and your feelings and your actions are all matching, you know, there is less tension or less dissonance.
00:39:12
Speaker
Right. So if I say I'm on a diet, I'm just going to throw that out there, but then I'm eating a bunch of cookies. Right. It's like, okay, wait, am I on my diet? Like did I, am I, you know, in lined? Right. And so when those different parts of you are matching, there's less tension. And so congruence is similar.
00:39:40
Speaker
So when your bisexual identity is matching, my sort of guess here is that you're going to have less tension and less depression and anxiety. And when does this happen more? When does this internal tension of where you're mismatched between your thoughts, your feelings, and your behaviors
00:40:07
Speaker
probably in long-term monogamous relationships, right? Because if you're single or if you're kind of dating around or if you're polyamorous or in consensual, you know, non-monogamous relationships, you're probably activating sort of the different attractions, the different behaviors and all of that. But when you're monogamous,
00:40:35
Speaker
Right. You're only with one partner and in a long-term relationship, you're going to maybe fall into a hetero kind of a life and a community and identity or a gay life or community or identity. Right. Um, and also my guess is that this happens a little bit more heavily when you're with an other sex. Right.
00:41:04
Speaker
Because then you're in this sort of hetero-passing relationship. Your partner's probably hetero. You know, they may not be, but they may be hetero-passing. And so now you're feeling really invisible and there's just all this erasure. And there are studies. There are studies out there sort of supporting some of my ideas. Studies on bi women specifically.
00:41:33
Speaker
but that bi women in other sex relationships tend to have poorer mental health than bi women in same-sex relationships.
Mental Health in Relationships
00:41:43
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. And there's more rejection and exclusion from the gay community, which, you know,
00:41:52
Speaker
That makes sense. Definitely seen a lot of that. You know, even today on Twitter, a lot of like harassment toward people who call themselves queer but are in a quote straight relationship. But of course we are. Yes. Yes. So, you know, you're feeling booted out. You're feeling dismissed, questioned, you know, by women and seeing sex relationships, you know,
00:42:19
Speaker
we get our own flak too. I mean, I'm married to a woman, so I'm kind of speaking from that. But we're more out just as a result of being in a same-sex relationship, right? We can't sort of pass as hetero, but there's a little bit more mislabeling. There is more direct facing of homophobia because now you're in a
00:42:44
Speaker
gay passing relationship. So this, you know, I've seen these statistics. I've heard of this through my clients and from friends and just also my own lived experiences when I, you know, I was dating men, um, before. Um, and so how do we become more congruent? Right. It's kind of this question that I've been grappling with and
00:43:13
Speaker
My idea is to make your insides match your outsides kind of simplistically. It's a little bit similar to trans people and where your internal sense of your gender, you know, matches your external sense of your gender, right? But for bi and pan people, we kind of, I think, go through something similar where maybe it's in our head
00:43:43
Speaker
You know, our, our attractions are in our head, our crushes and our fantasies are in our head, but we're not actually living it out. You know, we're not speaking about it. We're not expressing it. Um, and even if we have a partner who is supportive or neutral, we just might not be talking about it. You know, um, we sometimes sort of like we suppress ourselves. Right. And so.
00:44:13
Speaker
Could there be ways to really speak about it more? Like, you know, let's say you're a bi woman with a male partner. Do you speak about crushes, you know, celebrities, you know, that you are crushing on or maybe mentioning your ex-girlfriends or expressing yourself through your clothing, hair and makeup even that just feels like you?
00:44:41
Speaker
or engaging in bi or queer culture, right? Shows, movies, going to pride, going to a community group, you know, all of those things, right? And likewise, if you're a bi man, you know, like, and you're with a woman, first of all, are you out to her? Because bi men tend to be less out than bi women, right? But if you are out, do you speak about
00:45:12
Speaker
crushes on men or mentions of ex-boyfriends or do you dress yourself or express yourself in the way that you really want? And do you engage in bi or queer culture? Right. Do you listen to the Two Bi Guys podcast, for example? Right, right. And so these are the questions that I think
00:45:40
Speaker
people maybe are thinking about, maybe are already doing, but aren't aware that they're doing it. Um, I think those of us that are activists, we automatically have that outlet. We are doing projects. We're doing podcasts, you know, workshops. Um, we're talking to other by leaders. We're emailing each other. Um, we're, we're reading articles where, you know,
00:46:06
Speaker
We're paying attention to these things. So those things are active in our life and that makes us feel congruent. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I remember right before I came out and as I was coming out, really noticing how when I started coming out, how free I was to speak my mind at any moment. And even just watching TV, I would have a thought about a scene or a character that I was able to say now that the person next to me knew, whereas
00:46:43
Speaker
I was censoring myself so much before and basically didn't realize it or thought it was normal to censor myself all the time. And so when I started coming out, I came out real fast. I had a list and I went down it and I think I didn't really know why I was so eager to do it. But in hindsight, it was like
00:47:06
Speaker
so that I could be myself around all the people I care about. And I didn't even fully realize how much I hadn't been my total self beforehand. So it makes a lot of sense what you're saying. Absolutely. You were trying to reach that congruence, that outness, that authenticity where your insights matched your outsides, and now you could be open with your friends.
00:47:32
Speaker
You know, like if you're dating a partner of a certain gender, you don't have to change the pronoun or hide the pronoun. You can bring your date around. You know, you can talk about by pride stuff. Right. And that's, you know, going to, until also another set of skills is dealing with microaggressions and dealing with questions or comments or things like that. Right. But it's a start.
00:48:02
Speaker
It's really engaging.
00:48:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think those microaggressions were also much harder for me to even notice when I wasn't out. I just kind of almost gaslit myself and thought all that stuff was normal and told myself, like, those people must have a point. Instead of now, I'm very like, when I hear something biphobic, my alarm bells go off right away. And I just know not to get sucked into that way of thinking. But until you're around people that normalize this
00:48:33
Speaker
this sexuality, it's really hard to do that on your own. Absolutely. And when you have awareness even that something is a microaggression, I think just the act of that, you are not internalizing it. You can see it as an act where it's toxic and you can call it that and then you can figure out a way to deal with that.
00:49:01
Speaker
instead of just assuming, oh, well, they are speaking the truth about me, right? Right. That's what I assumed for so long that like, oh, people must know how the world is. And I must be the one that's confused. And, you know, now I understand that just because a lot of people think something doesn't mean they're right. Exactly. Exactly. I think it's mostly other people that are confused about us.
00:49:29
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, I, and I just want to say too, I'm not trying to exclude bi and non-binary people out there. I think there is unfortunately just so little research, you know, out there,
Supportive Partnerships and Activism
00:49:42
Speaker
but I do think that in some ways being trans or non-binary, it adds a layer of outness and queerness that you're already thinking about grappling with. And so for those of us that are cisgender,
00:49:58
Speaker
We don't have that, so we sort of blend ourselves in with the mainstream culture as a result. So in a way, it's a disadvantage that we're not already thinking about our gender identity. But you know, I do think that when we're with monosexual partners, that this is really important to find someone who's really supportive of you, who's supportive of your
00:50:27
Speaker
bi or pansexuality and doesn't fight against it, doesn't question it or control it, you know, worst thing is to control it or abuse it, but they actually like appreciate it and maybe even like go with you to events. You know, my wife, we've been married now nine years, together 13 years. And she's just an amazing,
00:50:57
Speaker
ally. She's a lesbian cis woman and she's just, I call her the biggest bi ally because I mean, obviously I have, you know, my professional bisexual career and, um, but she comes with me to community events and people know her and, um, it's just a normal part of our life, you know? And so, you know, I think it's important for people to ask themselves,
00:51:27
Speaker
Do you involve your partner or do you try to also compartmentalize that? It's like if I go to this buyer, this gay thing, I can't bring my partner, but why not?
00:51:46
Speaker
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00:52:04
Speaker
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00:52:31
Speaker
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00:52:47
Speaker
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00:53:21
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:55:12
Speaker
Can I ask about your partnership? Like when you first met each other, were you out already? How did your bisexuality come into play over the evolution of your relationship? Oh yeah, I was already out. I was already a major, major activist. Um, and so I think like,
00:55:34
Speaker
You know, she just sort of knew that about me. I mean, it's not like she had heard about me, but, you know, I just sort of talked about it as a part of like who I am and my hobbies and volunteering and things like that. With previous partners, you know, for me earlier in my journey, I would also be open with them, you know, pretty early on. So I'd never hit it.
00:56:04
Speaker
um, you know, from my partners. And, you know, a thing also, I remember, um, sort of talking about being with male partners because I remember when I had boyfriends that I purposely, and I didn't know why I did this, but I purposely sort of dressed more edgy and androgynous. Um, I had super short hair and I always wore a rainbow bracelet.
00:56:34
Speaker
And I realized now like why I was doing it because for me that helped me feel congruent, you know, that it was kind of like this concrete visible reminder that I'm not straight. And interestingly enough, some of my quote unquote straight boyfriends later came out as bi. I mean, surprise, surprise. Um, but it just,
00:57:01
Speaker
having that little like queer symbol or like sort of the way I dressed, it just made me feel more me, you know, when I had male partners. So, you know, I've heard some similar things from other folks, you know, I don't know if you've had, you know, similar experiences or heard of them, but I think these are ways that we try to, you know, match like what we're doing with what we're feeling and thinking.
00:57:30
Speaker
Right, and even if you're not explicitly out to everyone, these by-dentifiers can be important just to sort of signal, hey, I'm not conforming in some way. I remember my last couple years at work at SVU where I wasn't out to people. I came out basically right around the time I left the show, but I had these really bright
00:57:58
Speaker
pinkish, orange-ish sneakers that, you know, for years I had worn like brown and gray shoes and whatever. And then I got these and like I loved them. I think I was starting to come out in my head but not ready to tell people. And I loved the sneakers and like a lot of people would comment on them and say nice shoes or like I can't hear you, those shoes are so bright.
00:58:21
Speaker
And I liked that. I liked sort of walking down the hall and having something that stood out. And when I did finally come out more publicly, I put a bi-pin on my backpack and I just, even sitting on the subway, I liked having that. And I didn't have to talk to people on the subway, but if they knew, then they knew and they could see. And so, yes, I've had that experience.
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah, totally. It could be like a quiet or subtle way. You know, it could be a bisexual teacher or had, you know, obviously something if you want to be super explicit, but yeah, it could be something subtle.
00:59:00
Speaker
and then it creates kind of this opening conversation. And maybe that could lead to you actually coming out. Exactly, right. It can be the conversation starter. And also speaking of congruence, that tracks for me too, and with mental health, because there was probably about a year where I was calling myself straight and not out to anyone, but
00:59:25
Speaker
having sex with men and so that was like probably the least the most whatever the opposite of the most cognitive dissonance I ever felt congruent because it was really weighed on me like how how can I say these words and then
00:59:41
Speaker
be doing this stuff. And the things I was doing, I was enjoying. And so I was like, I didn't feel shame doing it. So then I was like, but then why don't I, why can't I say, why am I ashamed to tell people about this? And that was the hardest time. And at that time, it seemed like coming out would be the hardest thing. But actually, it
01:00:05
Speaker
It was hard to get there, but it made everything much easier and much nicer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's definitely what happens, you know, is we feel the weight of being incongruent. There's, you know, that box that we're in. And once you come out, it's so freeing.
01:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, cool. Has your bi identity changed over time for you? Like what it was about at the beginning? Is it something different now? Or is it kind of the same and you're more comfortable with it? Or like, I don't know, how do you how is it evolved for you? Um, that's a great question. I don't know if people have actually asked me that. But yeah, you know, I, I think that my
01:00:58
Speaker
Identifier has always been bisexual. And I like fluid also because, you know, to me, bisexual does sound a little bit like clinical sometimes. And fluid to me just feels a little bit more like encompassing of like change and fluctuations.
01:01:19
Speaker
Yeah. Because yeah, I have noticed that, you know, when I was unmarried and kind of dating and having different partners that sometimes I'd be more boy crazy or more girl crazy and whatnot. So, you know, I think that that's been, you know, part of that journey, but you know, outwardly I, I still use bisexual and you know, I think it's so important to have that historical reference too. You know, I know that there's other newer terms, you know, within the umbrella,
01:01:49
Speaker
But I'm glad to see that people are reclaiming bisexual. I think there's just been so many misconceptions about what it means, that it has to be 50-50. And so I also, through my social media, I educate people around some of the nuances around identifications. And I think that it's been really well received. People have really been resonating with that.
01:02:19
Speaker
And, you know, it really shows how diverse we are, right? That, you know, you can be under the bi plus umbrella or bisexual label even, and you can have varying degrees of different ways that you feel desire. And so that's just been a wonderful arc that I've seen. It's been so great seeing the younger generation
01:02:46
Speaker
being more out and talking about it more and doing TikToks, you know, about their bisexuality. And so this is just so, so wonderful to see that, you know, in my life where I'm seeing people younger than me and I'm learning from them. So that just is just super exciting.
01:03:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it is becoming so much more normalized and prevalent in younger generations, which is nice, very nice to see. And like the bi plus community is so diverse, which is sort of like, it's a blessing. It's what makes it really special and unique. It also makes it a challenge sometimes to organize and find each other and not get caught up in the label discussions and get to the next level of like,
01:03:36
Speaker
what we have in common and our collective oppression and you know things like that so double-edged sword.
01:03:51
Speaker
Okay, so last thing, I wanna talk about the day we finally met, which was in June of this year. Yes. I hope it's this year that I put out this episode, probably. So we met at the WeHo Pride Parade. I showed up at the very last minute right before we started and somehow got to pull the unicorn. But it was, I- You were fashionably late. Yes, exactly.
01:04:19
Speaker
It was a lovely day, but tell us about your experience of that day and how it relates to other pride parades you've been in, you know, back when you started doing the activist work. Yeah. Well, it's that that's been quite a journey as well, you know, because, you know, I've lived in L.A. for so long and I had never seen a bi-contingent at the L.A. pride parade. And so when I started up
01:04:48
Speaker
you know, AMB at the time called AMB, which was 2006. We were starting to talk about, like, should we gather a group and march in LA Pride?
01:05:02
Speaker
you know, we're not just, we just weren't organized enough and we didn't know how to apply and to do all that. So in 2007, I was like, let's just wear buy t-shirts and stand on the side and we'll have a sidewalk contingent. You know, we'll start there, right? Like baby steps, right? Sometimes you just have to have through baby steps. So it was four of us and we all wore buy shirts.
01:05:31
Speaker
We were so nervous. We were so nervous to wear t-shirts at Pride. I mean, if you can believe that. But because we were doing it together, again, strength in numbers, we felt better just all standing together. And so we took pictures of ourselves standing there and we said, you know, next year we're going to look into how to get into LA Pride. And we did. So it was 2008.
01:06:01
Speaker
And we were able to gather, I think it was a little under 15 people and we all wore purple shirts. Cause that was, you know, kind of the, the color that represents bisexuality on the by pride flag. We made signs, you know, different by pride slogans and we got together and we marched and it was positive for the most part. I think we were just really excited to be doing it.
01:06:30
Speaker
We did get some booze and jeers, unfortunately. There were just some really biphobic gay people that didn't like that we were there and we were being out. And so I heard things like, pick a side.
01:06:48
Speaker
Um, but you know, I was, right. We're supposed to be about love and acceptance and celebration. Um, but you know, because I'd already been doing this, you know, this work for years. And so I, I wasn't surprised. I didn't, you know, catch me off guard.
01:07:10
Speaker
And I just knew that I just needed to stay strong and hold my head up high and that it wasn't going to change anything about me or about us. You know, and I was just so proud that we were there in this parade and it's just such an exhilarating experience, right? When you're marching in this parade and there's just so much, you know, rainbows and glitter and it's just so happy. And so that was 2008.
01:07:38
Speaker
And then ever since then, we've been marching at LA Pride. Our contingents have grown bigger. They've grown more elaborate. Later, Ambi had flatbed trucks with go-go dancers and amazing things and even celebrities. And so it took little by little
01:08:04
Speaker
and organizing and people feeling more and more proud as they were marching. And people would come up to me and they say, thank you so much for organizing this. It has been such a happy and exciting day to be in pride.
Bi Visibility at LA Pride
01:08:24
Speaker
And we also heard that people who had previously identified as gay
01:08:32
Speaker
You know, after seeing us at LA Pride, it started to come out as bi. So it's like when you are out, not only are you helping your own mental health, but you are helping other people. You know, you are shining the light. And that's what I say being like a bi beacon. You're signaling out to people.
01:08:58
Speaker
that are feeling lonely, that are struggling, that are unsure of themselves. And they're like, oh, look, there is a person who is out and they feel okay and they seem to be doing okay. Maybe I can be like that person. So this is why I continue to do what I do. And this is why I continue marching.
01:09:22
Speaker
That's so awesome and it Robin Oaks also talked on the podcast about this idea of being a bi beacon because like right you don't know and who it could help and affect and you'll never you may never see it but it's definitely happening and like I just think walking, doing the pride parade like
01:09:41
Speaker
you see all these bi flags sporadically in the crowd. And it's so fun when they catch your eye and they see a bi group and they get all excited. I mean, that part is so fun. Totally. And we never used to see that in the beginning. In the beginning, we were the only bi flag, right? But now you can see it in the audience, in the sidelines, so many bi and pan flags. And it just
01:10:11
Speaker
My heart was swelling just every time. There were so many. I mean, every, every 20 feet, at least one, and sometimes many.
01:10:20
Speaker
But then also, you know there's people in the crowd who are not necessarily cheering for us going crazy or not necessarily have a bi flag of their own, but who notice it and may think or may not have seen a bi group like that or 20 bi people in one place together. Yes, holding a 50-foot bi flag.
01:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, right. And so who knows? And you know, I also noticed this time a lot of groups of women, not with bi flags, but like groups of girlfriends who also got so excited when we passed. And so people may not always have an outward identifier, but I could tell they were connecting with the giant bi flag. Maybe some baby buys.
01:11:09
Speaker
Yes. And even folks who are non-bi were cheering for us and that just felt so wonderful, so amazing. And so that's the part that's just so rewarding to know and see the efforts of all the leaders, the leaders on the shoulders that I've stood on and the younger leaders that have come after me.
01:11:38
Speaker
that we are all creating change.
01:11:42
Speaker
That's awesome. And, you know, we obviously there's always work to do and we still have ways to go, but it's already changed so much from 2008 to now. There's already so many more bi flags. I didn't hear any biphobia. And like you said, we got solidarity from other letters in LGBT plus. And so that, you know, that's in large part to the work that you've done in L.A. and broader. And so thank you for all the work that you've done to get us to this point.
01:12:12
Speaker
This has been a lovely, lovely chat. It's great. I'm so glad we got to finally do it. If you are listening and aren't already following Dr. Mimi, you should be. She's on Instagram at Dr. Mimi Huang, Dr. D-R. Huang is H-O-A-N-G. You can also visit her website. It's drmimihuang.com. And then we'll also post the link with all the resources, which I just think is such a great
01:12:41
Speaker
resource. Anything else you want to plug before we go? That's it. You know, follow me. I'm also on Facebook. For those of you that are on Facebook, the older Gen Xers like me. Yeah, and stay tuned to new programs.
01:12:59
Speaker
Yes, Mimi also has a great newsletter that I get promoting programs from LA Plus by Task Force and by, and we've been on panels together. I hosted one, you were on, you hosted one that I was on. So get on that newsletter and build your bi community. Thank you again. Thank you so much, Dr. Mimi Huan. This was great. Thank you.
01:13:24
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Mincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off your first three months of Zencaster. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.