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Gendered Expectations When Eating Out... and Eating Out
2.7k Plays6 years ago
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Music by Ross Mintzer
Graphic Design by Kaitlin Weinman
Edited by Moxie Peng
Produced by Moxie Peng, Matt Loomis, Alex Boyd, and Rob Cohen
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Transcript
Transition to Remote Recording
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Rob, and thanks for discovering Season 1 of Two Bye Guys. We hope you enjoy it. So in Season 1, we recorded everything in person. It was pre-pandemic, and we used professional sound booths. And as you'll hear, the audio quality is pretty great. But it was also very complicated and expensive. And when the pandemic hit, those booths became impossible.
00:00:23
Speaker
So in season two, we tried recording interviews locally while chatting on Zoom, which kind of worked. But the audio quality was spotty. Sometimes people made manual mistakes with the recording. It was a huge hassle for me to receive the files, convert the formats, compile the audio, edit by hand. I knew I needed a better solution if I was going to continue the podcast.
Benefits of Zencastr
00:00:46
Speaker
And Zencaster was that solution. The thing that was most important to me, knowing how the process works, is that the audio gets recorded locally, not over the internet like Zoom does. When you get up to seasons three and four, you'll hear how good the audio quality is. It rivals what you're about to hear from season one, which was recorded in professional sound booths. And it's so much easier and cheaper. Everyone can record from home with whatever equipment they have, even just a laptop's built-in mic.
00:01:15
Speaker
And then there's the editing and post-production. I used to have to go through every track manually, reducing background noise, mixing volumes and levels, making sure my guest and I were synced. Now Zencaster post-production takes care of all of that and delivers ready to upload files. So if you're thinking about starting your own podcast, I highly recommend Zencaster. It's easy, it's affordable, and it's very reliable, and the sound quality
Promotional Offer
00:01:40
Speaker
is great.
00:01:40
Speaker
And now if you go to zencaster.com slash pricing and enter promo code 2BUYGUYS, you'll get 30% off your first three months. That's z-e-n-c-a-s-t-r dot com slash pricing promo code 2BUYGUYS for 30% off your first three months. It's time to share your story with Zencaster.
Audience Feedback and Bisexuality Discussion
00:02:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Rob. And I'm Alex. Before we get into today's episode, thank you all for listening to the first five episodes. We've been hearing a lot of responses, a lot of people feeling validated and hearing what we're saying and having it relate to their lives. A lot of people disagreeing with some things we've said and that has sparked some interesting discussions on social media. A lot of these issues are pretty tricky to discuss and are
00:02:34
Speaker
concepts of these issues are evolving and changing and we're all learning more about this. And sometimes we get stuff wrong, I guess is what I kind of want to say. Yeah. In our views of bisexuality overall. Yeah. These two bi guys don't speak for all bi guys ever.
00:02:50
Speaker
Right, like everything we're talking about, even when we forget to mention that, is a personal experience. And it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's experience is that way. But I also think at the same time, we want to have these conversations even if we're going to get stuff wrong, right? Because we don't want to be so afraid of making a mistake that we don't have the conversation. Because it's so important that we discuss those things, right? Yeah, of course.
00:03:16
Speaker
So if we do get anything wrong, please write to us. Please let us know. Please tell us how your experience is different or if any of this is harmful or hurtful. But also we hope you're all listening with an open mind and an open heart. Take everything we say with a grain of salt because it's our point of view and it doesn't always apply to everyone.
00:03:36
Speaker
I think it's important for both of us, Rob and I, to acknowledge that we don't speak for queer women when we're speaking about queer women. We don't speak for trans and non-binary folks when we speak about them, but we are pointing out maybe something that sounds like a generalization just for the sake of
00:03:52
Speaker
simplifying the conversation.
Gender in Dating and Relationships
00:03:54
Speaker
Right exactly like we sort of have to sometimes make these generalizations to get at the point we want to discuss that's like something valid but we definitely don't want to be telling other people how they should be feeling or acting or what their experience is.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah. And as it refers to today's episode, what we're planning on talking about here, you know, I can already see that we might be a little bit binary centric today, for example. And I think it's important that we realize that even if we speak about men and women, we're not disregarding the existence of others because there's a lot of erasure of the other folks. Yeah. So what is that specific topic that we're going to get into today? Yeah. So Rob and I are going to talk a little bit about dating and sex, how gender
00:04:37
Speaker
plays a part. The ongoing bi conundrum is, but how can you do this with men and with women? How can you have the same relationships? And the truth is they're not the same. They're different in a lot of ways. They're also similar in a lot of ways for some, you know, in some instances, but today we're gonna really kind of dig in to what role gender plays in our relationships.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yeah. And many people identify as bisexual because they have had experiences with people of more than one gender. And so I learned a lot when I started having those experiences, like a lot of things I wasn't prepared for and didn't even think about. Yeah. So how is it different for you dating men and women or other genders too, of course?
00:05:17
Speaker
in some ways it's so similar and in some ways it's very different. I've talked about how similar it feels to be with men and women, both sexually and also in relationships or in dating. When I finally felt comfortable enough to date men,
00:05:33
Speaker
I started realizing those feelings I had internally were very similar to like the feeling of like going on a date or like wondering if someone's interested in you or you know all of that stuff actually feels so similar and as we've discussed the sex feels similar to like the feelings around it although the mechanics are different we'll get to that
Queer Influence on Relationship Dynamics
00:05:56
Speaker
later. Yeah we'll get to that.
00:05:57
Speaker
but I also think sort of externally from the outside and in terms of like expectations and roles that dating is very different and that when I've dated women I feel very locked into a certain role that patriarchy has sort of prescribed for me and that I don't like like I don't like sort of that power dynamic where men
00:06:20
Speaker
are very much prioritized, but I felt that that was the dynamic sort of implicitly in a lot of relationships and that like it's the man's job to lead things in a certain way or to be in charge or responsible or
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's that dominant role that you're supposed to play in all ways, right? That's what I'm hearing from you anyways. Yeah, that's a good word. I felt in this dominant role, but I didn't like that. I didn't want to be in that role. I wanted things to be more equal. And to be fair, there were women I found more equal relationships with. Yeah, of course.
00:06:55
Speaker
But then when I started dating men, like I just felt I was on more of an equal footing and that heteronormativity wasn't placed on top of the relationship. And therefore I didn't feel that same kind of pressure and it was kind of freeing a little bit. Does that make sense?
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And actually, you know, now that I'm thinking a little bit more about it, it kind of just hit me that like the idea of a relationship between two men forces you to create your own dynamics, right? And maybe that's perfectly equal. Maybe that's one far more dominant than the other, right? Like that could be anything, but there's no book that you can ascribe to in the same way. There's more room, more room to just feel comfortable.
00:07:38
Speaker
Right. It sort of frees things up to create whatever kind of dynamic you like and whatever works for you. And actually right. Like maybe a totally equal 50 50 in everything. Isn't the right way for you to be in a relationship, but being with men opened that up in a certain way for me to actually explore what balance do I like or in different areas of our relationship? What balance do I want? How about you? What's your experience been like with this?
00:08:06
Speaker
I have had a lot of relationships with men where I sense that equal footing that we're on. And that feels comfortable to me. I strive for that. I strive for people to be on an equal footing where I can stand for myself, they can stand for themselves. So that is an easier possibility for me with men.
00:08:26
Speaker
with women i have always found that it's that same expectation you're talking about is definitely there and i think you know maybe and this isn't hopefully a complete martyr complex here it feels almost harder because i did identify as gay for as long as i did
00:08:41
Speaker
it just made it even more challenging to be a straight guy for the first time in 22 years, right? And I had no idea how to do that. So there was so much more anxiety about it. And then there was kind of the imprinted picture of what a straight couple is, which I would now be a part of.
00:08:57
Speaker
And yeah, you're expected to be a little bit more dominant. And that's being broken down. You know, the result might be that two straight people are in a relationship and they have a very conscious understanding of that. And they can feel more comfortable, right? Which is great. In part, I feel like queer people have almost helped those individuals see the potential.
00:09:16
Speaker
Yes, I think that being with men and people of other genders, not just women, I've found once I'm able to explore that and figure out myself and who I am and the way I like to work within relationships, I've been able to bring that back to relationships with women. Yeah. So it's actually helped me across the board to have that experience.
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the divorce rate is lower for queer people, right? Like there's real evidence that queer people have functional, healthier relationships. And for example, polyamory, that is maybe more popular amongst queer communities and more kind of discreet and hidden amongst straight communities. But I feel like straight communities are kind of learning from queer communities that maybe that's a healthy possibility.
Challenges of Developing Queer Relationships
00:10:01
Speaker
Right. Well, heteronormativity doesn't just lock people into male-female relationships and their roles and expectations within that. It also is related to normativity in general. And so, for example, monogamy, I think, is part of that. Heteronormativity boxes you in in that way. And then with kink versus vanilla type play, I think it locks you more into non-kink stuff. Yeah, completely. It's affecting that.
00:10:29
Speaker
that toolbox that forms your relationship, right? Like to keep your relationship going smoothly and in a healthy way where both people feel supported. I find that queer people who are queer at a younger age are not given the same kind of role models for their relationships, the same kinds of expectations and images to ascribe to, and therefore basically leads to a much later development for healthy relationships. There's a lot of study that goes into
00:10:58
Speaker
that gay relationships, for example, don't exist in a healthy way until maybe their 20s, as opposed to their teens. Because there's so much lack of clarity of what they're supposed to do. We were just talking the gender and how do you deal with that as a 16-year-old, because you don't see much of it.
00:11:15
Speaker
Right, relationships are so confusing at 16 anyway on top of that having much fewer role models or examples or people talking to you about how a queer relationship could work. Exactly. I have found that I was just figuring out how to have a healthy date even when I was 21, 22 or so, which I'm very well aware is fairly late.
00:11:38
Speaker
Yeah, I guess. I mean, that's not that bad. Yeah, but comparing to a lot of people around me. Who was that, like one year ago for you? I also should say that I only just recently got in my first kind of substantial relationship and I'm 26 right now. That's fairly late. Most people around me have been in several relationships at this point.
00:12:00
Speaker
And it does stem, I feel, from being a young queer person, and at least for me, not having the same hope that relationships are a possibility. So what do you think about that? As someone who identified as straight through most of that time and came to buy a label? Well, I identify with that in sort of, again, an opposite way, but everything you're saying makes sense because I did have relationships with women from
00:12:25
Speaker
young ages that felt good and felt normal and only into my sort of mid 20s to late 20s did I start to have some real doubts about relationships I was in and did those relationships get a little more complicated for
Experiences of Bisexual Men in Dating
00:12:42
Speaker
me. And I think that was because I was beginning to notice queer desires within me. And I think in my late 20s was when it got really tense and suddenly a lot of
00:12:53
Speaker
relationships I had with women felt to me like I was testing myself to see if I really was interested in these women and really was I straight or not. Like I was starting to doubt myself. And when everything feels like a test, it's really unhealthy.
00:13:09
Speaker
for you because you start conflating all these things and like not everyone is going to be a fit for you, right? Like you could date people, I dated a lot of people in my 20s who were not a good fit for me and suddenly every time that happened it would make me doubt my straightness, it would make me doubt my whole identity and it became really challenging to just focus on the person and focus on the connection we did or didn't have.
00:13:44
Speaker
So to bring it back to literally a date setting, I think it's also important to acknowledge with all of this going on, the bi struggle is still that every man and every woman is going to assume you to be either gay or straight in a setting like that, right?
00:13:59
Speaker
And I think that assumption, depending on the gender of the person, affects me in very different ways. Like a man assuming that I'm gay maybe still feels a little bit more honest because I care about my queerness. I can care about identifying as queer. When I'm with a straight cis woman and I'm assumed to be a straight guy, that feels like so much more
00:14:22
Speaker
of a birdie. But I also think it's sort of a good litmus test now being out like I've been out with women since coming out and some of them I just never hear from again or the conversation gets awkward when I tell them and but I've also had the experience of telling a woman I'm bi and her being really into it and that actually making the relationship
00:14:45
Speaker
better than any I ever had, even the earlier ones, because I have such a more fully formed and comprehensive identity that allows for everything. And then when a woman is into that and comfortable with that and actually likes it, it's so validating in such a great way. It also turns me on in a great way. And like
00:15:05
Speaker
I guess we'll get to sex in a minute, but towards the end, when I sort of knew that I wasn't totally straight in my head, but I was still dating women and wasn't comfortable telling them that or identifying as bi, I started to have issues with sex where I felt so much performance anxiety because of that role and that expectation that it was sometimes hard to have sex, especially if it was a new person and I wasn't totally comfortable with them.
00:15:32
Speaker
And that made me doubt my straightness. That made me doubt that I was even bi. That made me think, oh, I might be gay and all these other relationships I've had were a lie and it sent me spinning.
Queer-Friendly Dating Apps
00:15:43
Speaker
But then meeting women who were cool with bisexuality and then who I had sexual relationships with after coming out to them was really important because when that happened, sex was not difficult and it was great. And I didn't have that
00:16:00
Speaker
performance anxiety and I was more able to perform without that pressure and so that ended up being so validating of my by identity because I knew that it was really these expectations from the outside that were giving me these anxieties and not some internal constitution that I do or don't like men or women or that I'm more attracted to penises or vaginas or boobs or butts or you know like
00:16:27
Speaker
Like, I realized that all of those things are nice, but they're secondary to the situation and the feelings and the acceptance. Yeah, I completely feel that. And, you know, two points of very related come right to mind. The first and the most kind of valuable discovery I've made about myself this year
00:16:45
Speaker
has been that I don't date cis straight women anymore, because I know that there's heteronormative lens that they are viewing relationships through generally. Generally. And like I said, I'm open to those instances and I've found instances when that's not the case. But it makes it easier for me and actually kind of block out gay men too, because there's a heteronormative or at least a monosexual lens that they can view things through.
00:17:10
Speaker
that I can't, like there's so much talk about like are you a top or are you a bottom, for example, and all of that talk which. Are you, so are you a top or are you a bottom? Yeah, are we gonna go there? Let's go there. Well, where do you wanna start? Maybe we'll go there in a second. Well, first to address the other point that came up too, that there's an app called Field, F-E-E-L-D. It's very similar to Tinder, Grindr, all of the others, except I've found that it's super
00:17:38
Speaker
queer centric, it's super bi-centric. So many individuals on there are not straight and not gay. And it's homoflexible, heteroflexible, queer, bi. Those are the identities that make up most of it.
Exploring Sexual Experiences
00:17:53
Speaker
But I think even more interesting is that I match with almost every straight man on there. So even them, they're using straight, but maybe they're just using the label more so they're not refining their behavior to straightness, clearly.
00:18:06
Speaker
Right. Interesting. They're viewing straightness as somewhat fluid. Yeah. But it's really interesting how comfortable that whole app, everybody I talked to, it just all feels so much more in my lane. And so much of that is centered on the fact that we all seem to be in this by umbrella.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think that app is really cool. Maybe I'll get on there because- I encourage you all. So you've got a few threesomes then on feel? We're getting there. Maybe, we'll see. I'll update you all. Sorry, I know you don't love that question. But you know, sometimes you gotta ask that question. Yeah, always good to ask, you just may not get an answer.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah. But maybe we spend the rest of the time talking sex. Sex. And Rob loves talking sex. My favorite. So how is sex different between men, women, and queer and non-binary folks, if that's kind of a factor at all for you?
00:19:01
Speaker
I actually think my answer is similar to the dating thing, which is that it feels similar from within, but I also have felt different kinds of expectations in terms of sex, and being with men allowed me to break out of those roles and expectations that I talked about earlier, and allowed me to try new stuff, and not just top versus bottom, but all sorts of different kinds of things.
00:19:29
Speaker
other types of kink play and other types of like group activities or sex parties and like all of this stuff felt like a totally other world when I identified a straight and like something that was not accessible to me. Yeah. So are you saying that sex is better with men?
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah. Well, is sex better with men than women? Yeah. I don't know. No, no, I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that sex in general for me has gotten better since I opened myself up to being with men. I think like in terms of the best sex, that's depending on a person. Yeah.
00:20:04
Speaker
And so I won't say who my best sex has been with. Like even with a single person, sex can be very different based on the situation and the mood and what you're doing. You know, I've learned that there's so much variety of sexual encounters, but opening myself up to a queer identity has allowed me to experience all that variety. Whereas looking back when I was only with women, there was some variety, but the range was much narrower.
00:20:33
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I understand that. How about you? Do you feel sex is different with men and women? I mean, I agree with a lot of what you've said generally. I think the more important part that just comes to mind right away is just logistically, like things are different. Well, you could talk about that. That's true. There is something about working with a body that you don't have as much understanding on. Yeah.
00:20:57
Speaker
It's not like yours in the same way. There are elements of it that are different, right? Like a clitoris versus like working with like a guy's dick or a guy's ass, like very different. I had no sexual experience with women until 22, I think, or 21, 22, something like that. So what was that like? How did you learn how to do that?
00:21:15
Speaker
books kind of like books. When I was 13 I had a book when I was 13 right yeah yeah well like and more so like there was like a book that I read and then a lot of like literature maybe is the better way of putting it because like reading online and also like porn also most learning got done just watching porn like the second I started watching like threesome porn especially and just like there was a long time where watching porn with women
00:21:42
Speaker
was really hard, even though I was really attracted to it. I couldn't help but see a lot of misogyny in it, too. It's another topic maybe that we won't dive into, but it made it really hard to feel like a good person watching it, honestly, in some ways. That makes sense for sure, because porn can be pretty misogynistic. And a lot of people learn about sex. A lot of straight guys, I think, especially learn about sex from watching porn, which is not always so healthy.
00:22:09
Speaker
Well, and for anybody too, like there's so much you've tried and it hurts maybe, or it's just not fun. Right. I am not anti-porn and I think it's not always bad and there's a lot of good things about the industry, but I don't think it should be necessarily used as an instruction manual. Yes, exactly. And that I think was probably my biggest struggle when I did start sleeping with women. I was like,
00:22:34
Speaker
Okay, like how much of this is real? Because you can tell like there's, you know. But at least when you started exploring, you were in the mindset of like, I want to learn to do this well, like to please this woman.
Communication in Sexual Relationships
00:22:48
Speaker
When I was younger, a teenager, that wasn't in my head. I was just thinking about me and my anxiety and my performance. I was not focused on pleasing the other person, which is not good, but that's what a teenager's mind is like. Well, and I think talk about performance anxiety when you're sleeping with your first couple of women ever as a formerly gay man and trying to please her and make her feel good. Right.
00:23:15
Speaker
Like that being the priority, like, you know, it's just a lot. And even now I can sometimes feel that I've had so many more years with men that queer folks definitely fall in the same category as men in this case for me because I think they are much more in touch with the idea of queer sex and just the idea of it.
00:23:32
Speaker
maybe more communication being a part of it in my experience too. Yeah. Well, I found that more communication is key and it was, I learned how to do that when I started sleeping with men a lot better than I was able to do that when I was with women. Like I learned
00:23:48
Speaker
the importance of communication and explicitly discussing everything. Yeah. Cause that was what ended up happening. And then I liked that. And then I realized, oh, like this decreases my anxiety about this. It makes me feel more comfortable and makes the other person feel comfortable. Why was I not doing this with women all along? And like that's patriarchy and heteronormativity and like, you know, I wish I had done things differently, but that was, that was the toolbox I had at the time.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, completely. And I don't think anybody really learns to prioritize communication and sex early on. Because how often in porn do you hear them checking in on each other, right? Is this okay? Is this okay? Yeah, like it's not... Right. That's what it should be, but that's not what porn is. Yeah. And for years, like it was so not hot when somebody would say that to me. Like I would just lose it. Like I would just be like, why did you just talk?
00:24:41
Speaker
Yes, and I used to think if I was asking, is this okay? Or do you want to do this? I used to think that wasn't hot for them. Exactly. And that I and that what they wanted was for me to just like, take charge and do stuff and just do the thing that you're supposed to.
00:24:57
Speaker
Right, but it's actually hot to ask for continuous consent, and it's actually hot to be detailed about what you're doing and what feels good and where you want somebody to touch you or not, and what direction to move your finger around. I was afraid of that kind of communication for so long,
00:25:16
Speaker
Yeah, completely. Like I feel like I got a leg up in some way because being with men primarily early on, I think I was learning that communication was a must a little bit more. Whereas I feel like in straight relationships, and I've heard this from women that I've slept with that like they don't expect pleasure in the same way. They don't expect like you to care about them in the same way. Which loops me to a question, Rob. Sure. Are we saying that sex is better with bi men?
00:25:44
Speaker
Oh, with bi men, because, well, I guess so. I mean, I don't want to build myself up so much, but I do think, I mean, maybe not specifically bi men, but men who've been able in whatever way to conquer this barrier of openness and communication, then yes, sex is better. Be Coming By helped me to do that, so yes. Yes, exactly. And to answer my own question, that's the piece. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:10
Speaker
like being bi has made sex better for me. I don't think it's implicit necessarily. I think it's just there's a journey that you're forced on. So back to the logistics, do you find that uh that eating vagina is very similar to eating ass? Because I find it's pretty similar. Like sucking a dick logistically mechanically is different obviously, but the eating out is kind of similar. Sort of yeah. I mean like
00:26:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a little different, but it's similar. Well, it's basically not to be too crude about it, but like, well, we are crude. It's okay. We're being crude. Women have a clitoris that is in their vagina, right? Well, is there, right? And men have their prostate. That's kind of where they... Those are the two spots you're targeting on either of those bodies.
00:26:57
Speaker
To me, it feels like the same goal, essentially. You're hitting the spot on their body where they experience the most pleasure. Also, I had never had my ass eaten when I was a straight man by anyone. I only experienced that once I started sleeping with men. And just to all those out there who have never tried it,
00:27:21
Speaker
you have to. It was like I thought I could imagine what that would feel like, but I don't think you can because it was this wild, wild sensation that I had never felt before and it feels really good and crazy. That was one of the most shocking things to me was what that felt like.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah, so sorry to those listening who I know in my personal life who don't want to know any of this, but stop listening now. Mom, dad, siblings. Mom, don't listen to what I just said before. Rewind your memory.
00:28:00
Speaker
Have you had a similar experience? Are you in that? So are you asking me if I've had my ass eat? Yes. And what was it like? Yes, I have. And actually, very recently for the first time, like a week ago.
00:28:16
Speaker
A week ago? Yeah, like eight days ago. Wow. Thank God we scheduled the podcast after you experienced
Roles and Consent in Sexual Contexts
00:28:22
Speaker
that. Yeah. But I had also eaten other guys and girls before 20, but yeah, never had my own. And I think having it done on me makes me understand what I'm doing a little bit more.
00:28:38
Speaker
And then in terms of like actual intercourse sex, who the person is can make things very different more so than gender, actually, because I found that having sex with female genitalia and male genitalia feels pretty similar. Like maybe there's a little bit of a difference in like texture or tightness or positions, right angles. However, the basics of that are surprisingly similar.
00:29:08
Speaker
If you're the top, right? Like being fucked is very different than fucking someone. But if you're fucking a man or a woman or someone of another gender with any genitals, it has felt very similar to me. The thing that's different is blowjobs. I had never given a blowjob, obviously, until I gave a blowjob to a guy.
00:29:30
Speaker
There's also the side of it that like sex between men like anal sex like takes more work and like there's like real Like that's a thing Yes, that is very true and actually something I didn't realize or expect yeah for experiencing it Yes to work with a guy's ass like you have to like clean right you have to like make sure that that's in the same way that you don't have
00:29:53
Speaker
This is the way I've heard it recently. In the same way that you don't give a blowjob with food in your mouth, you have to do some prep before bottoming, right? Yes. Yeah, and actually it does or it can affect the sexual encounter in a real way because when I've been with women, if things are getting frisky and it's going in a certain direction and you're getting hard and she's getting aroused, you can just have sex right there. Yes.
00:30:22
Speaker
Exactly. And you cannot do that without planning it with a guy. If that is happening and everyone's feeling it, you then have to be like, okay, are we going to have sex? And just decide verbally, and then you have to take a 20-minute break.
00:30:37
Speaker
Yeah, or longer than 20 minutes ago. Or you have to have thought about it earlier in the day or on the date. Which also, in my experience, that has made some asexual experiences with men so much more intimate too. Because one, you know that one or both of you has gone to a lot of work to make this happen.
00:31:00
Speaker
There can also be more anxiety because of that. But I also experience that there's just more of this is something that you're anticipating. And as long as that's healthy anxiety, it can make you really take advantage of that time a lot more. Whereas with women, I've found it just kind of can happen anywhere. And if it doesn't happen now, like then do it later. Like it's just kind of more nonchalant feeling to me at times.
00:31:24
Speaker
Right, and that time it takes to sort of prepare forces a different type of communication. Yes. And so it forces you to be more open and discuss things at every step. Yeah. Which makes things intimate. Yeah. So are you more of a top or bottom and have you tried both? I have very much so tried both. I have done much more of one than the other, but I'm open to all. And you like both?
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, depending on the person now. As I've talked about, part of me is very demi, too, without putting myself in that box. That very much, though, is a factor with all of this. With the right person, I will do all of it.
00:32:05
Speaker
Cool. I have also tried both and I'm glad that I have done that. I definitely am more of a top and I think that's partially because I identified a straight for so long and that was the only role I could possibly have in my head at least.
00:32:21
Speaker
And so that became my natural role, but I do enjoy both. It's a very interesting and fun experience to bottom. But I've also learned that I like to be more submissive, and I've learned that a subtop is a thing, which I never really thought about or
00:32:41
Speaker
could understand before I became queer that like, to me, top and dom go together, or they used to in my head, but they don't actually have to. You could be a sub top and you could be a dom bottom. And that's actually kind of interesting and hot to me, those things. Yeah, like there's some real dom bottoms out there. Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker
to segue out of sex for a minute, because I'm getting uncomfortable. Fine. Well, and not entirely out of sex. This is actually, like, really sex-centric, the question that I have now. But when I first started sleeping with women, pursuing women, that consent became an issue. That I would pay for drinks for a girl, because being a straight guy, that's what you do, apparently. But the point is that I would, you know, I paid for drinks for a girl, got her drunk, and then
00:33:39
Speaker
Didn't feel like I could go home with her at that point because I was like when is it an assault? You know, I just didn't understand that area I guess my question is how do you find consent varies depending on the gender of the person that you're with?
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting you had that experience because maybe you're coming from a world where things are more equal and so suddenly you felt this intense inequality and this expectation to pay for drinks if you're the man and you're dating a woman is a real expectation that then has these consequences.
00:34:14
Speaker
and contributes to a power dynamic, right? I sort of grew up with that power dynamic and was never really comfortable with it although it was invisible to me for some time.
00:34:26
Speaker
When you started sleeping with men, how did you find consent different in those spaces? It was a little different depending on how I met the guy, right? So my first experiences were on apps, meeting people on Grindr and other apps. In those cases, we would talk very explicitly, as we mentioned last time, about what we were going to do. And usually when you got there, you sort of stuck to the plan. And so that was very explicit consent. Some of those encounters would
00:34:52
Speaker
not end up involving a lot of communication during the event, but you had communicated pretty clearly beforehand. And I imagine consent was very important, like conversation, maybe to use a different word, was very important in those situations, as you've talked about. Right, I was only going over to meet some guy when I was into what we were discussing doing.
00:35:14
Speaker
But then going into other kinds of gay spaces, it changed a little. I don't know exactly about queer bars that I ever felt like consent is violated there. I didn't notice any huge differences between straight spaces and queer space on that front. But I did when I started going to like sex focused spaces, like for example, a gay bar that has a dark room or a downstairs or sex in the bathroom kind of.
00:35:42
Speaker
things going on, which I never knew existed, but also then like sex parties, which I started going to after coming out. And especially like you notice this in all male sex parties versus mixed sex parties that I've been to. In all male spaces, consent is often nonverbal and often very blurry.
00:36:04
Speaker
So what does that look like? Well, people just touch you without asking. People don't always come up to you and ask, can I touch you? Can I kiss you? Is this okay? They just come up to you and do it. And if you don't want them to, you have to say no, no, thank you. Or in some cases, I've had to like, just push people's hands away or push them away, like, in really dark spaces where people are persistent, it's kind of uncomfortable.
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah, I find that in those spaces, it isn't about consent being established, it's about pushing away or saying no or establishing when it stops, as opposed to when it can start. Right, it's the opposite of affirmative consent. And I find that part of that is because
00:36:47
Speaker
you are walking into a sex club. So it's assumed that you want sex in some way. Right, but it doesn't mean you want sex with everyone. Exactly. I find a lot of these spaces kind of firmly established that consent is in their expectation. That if you get turned away, don't be butthurt about it. Just step away. Right, don't pursue that person. Don't get angry. Right. Yeah.
00:37:11
Speaker
Right. Yeah. All the spaces I've been to have had those kind of disclaimers and I felt very safe on a macro level going in there because I knew that. Yeah. But yeah, there have been these moments where people just touch you and you just say no. I as somebody who worked in a gay bar for a year and a half.
00:37:29
Speaker
I found that I was essentially getting harassed and sexually assaulted very continuously. People grabbing me or doing things that I was not okay with and said something and they stepped away but they were too drunk to remember or something like that, right? Like those kinds of very kind of problematic, awful,
00:37:49
Speaker
kind of situations, it's not even a question of is there consent or is this an assault. It's more so like how much am I being harassed, like how violating is this and how firm are we having conversation about it.
00:38:05
Speaker
Yeah, that makes so much sense to me because when I started being with guys and in these kinds of spaces, I started to understand what that kind of pressure can feel like on this end and what it feels like to be in a murky area of not being sure if you want something, but also not being sure that you don't want it.
00:38:27
Speaker
wanting to expand your horizons and explore new things, but also wanting to feel safe and that you can stop at any time and that like I've had a lot of conflicted feelings about some of the stuff that I've tried and I've gained a new understanding of this very gray area.
Inclusivity and Consent in Diverse Spaces
00:38:47
Speaker
Yeah, but I think it's really important that consent isn't gray in the same way. It still doesn't make consent gray. I find that gay spaces, maybe because they're so hypersexualized, I think that there's a higher tolerance for broken consent. I think a huge piece of all of this is the fact that it's assumed that men always are thinking about sex and women are never thinking about sex. Those stereotypes still exist.
00:39:14
Speaker
I think in all male sex parties where consent is very nonverbal, part of me wanted to experience that and in some ways that nonverbal aspect can be hot if you're into what you're doing and who you're doing it with. But at the same time, it's like individual relationships and what we were talking about earlier with consent that like to me, communicating is really hot.
00:39:39
Speaker
now that I know how to do it, it's hotter than just pressing forward without talking about each step. And so when I have been to co-ed parties, like for example, I went to this make-out party that was like a pansexual co-ed make-out party or all genders. And that was the space I've been in with the most explicit consent that I've ever seen. Even just going up and talking to someone, you kind of ask for consent to talk to them.
00:40:08
Speaker
And, you know, it was a make out party. You're there to make out with people. That's what everyone kind of wants to do. But consent was so explicit and so necessary. And that actually made me feel so relaxed and so chill. And I had such a great time at that party. The vibe there was just so fun and friendly. And I think that contributed to it.
00:40:31
Speaker
Yeah, because nobody's forcing anything on anybody. There's ongoing mutual connections going on in every single one of those instances you're talking about. And it also makes me think of like these straight guys who want to explore with other guys but aren't out yet. And in a weird way, you can be very anonymous in a sex party. So like there's this group in New York that's like a jerk off club and there's like, you know, 50 people there when you go and only jerking off is allowed. No penetration of any kind.
00:41:01
Speaker
And you get a lot of straight guys there. Like, obviously you're not asking everyone how they identify, so you don't really know. But I went as a straight guy, so I know there are some straight guys there and kind of felt safe to me when I first did it because I knew that the limit was touching and that there was no penetration. Well, and that's clear consent. Like, you know what you're stepping into. You agreed to this.
00:41:24
Speaker
Right. But at the same time, when I went to that, I wasn't talking to anyone else about it. I didn't talk to my friends who had been to that before because I was not out. I was identifying it straight. And so I was very surprised when I first went to that and got there by people just touching me without asking. And it took me a little while to get comfortable saying no or pushing people away. And that caused me to have some early encounters that
00:41:53
Speaker
felt uncomfortable to me. And even though I went there and walking in the door as sort of consent to be touched, like, not really, like, I didn't realize it was going to be like that. And so I wish, you know, that's why it was hard to not be out about this, but to want to explore this stuff, because I was not prepared for that. So with all of this being said, we're talking a lot about differences amongst genders, dating and sex.
00:42:18
Speaker
You know, we're in this Me Too movement, for example, and we're talking about consent in that. And there's just a conversation about consent that is being held in two very different ways. And it makes it really hard for bi folks, I think, who share those spaces.
00:42:34
Speaker
or for a woman, like any woman, for example, to step foot in one of these settings, see what's happening and not be horrified. Right, I can't imagine a woman in a space like that. I've seen a woman walk in and casually walk into a dark room and just be like, what the hell is happening? And not just they're seeing a bunch of sex all of a sudden, but that they're seeing everybody obviously not communicating is really jarring.
00:43:02
Speaker
makes me wonder if all this stuff is actually like inherent to gender or because we're talking about it in a binary way and it is very gendered like we've noticed all these things that we're talking about but I wonder if that's like a self-fulfilling prophecy or if it's because our society is so gendered and power dynamics exist in all these ways already you know I wonder if that is why this
00:43:26
Speaker
is getting perpetuated or if it's possible to break out of it. Because I think the goal is to make things equal for everyone and to have explicit affirmative consent at all times. That would be better. But it is interesting how striking the differences currently are and how those are what the options are for people exploring this stuff.
Future of Gender Norms and Consent
00:43:50
Speaker
When it leads to this code switching that I find myself having all the time, where there's this massive code switch when I'm in a straight space seeking out women, for example, or even in a queer space seeking out people of non-male identities who aren't comfortable with that gay male kind of toxicity. And then I go to a gay male space and I try not to ever be that toxic presence, but I also know what to expect and therefore can respond in a very different way.
00:44:16
Speaker
Yeah, actually, maybe at his final point, it makes me think of this space I went to on Pride this year, which was a gender queer nonconforming party. Yeah. There were just people of all different presentations there of everything.
00:44:31
Speaker
And many people you would have to ask what their pronouns are. Like they were presenting in androgynous ways or in ways that were both male and female at the same time. And it was just such an awesome, fun place. Like it makes me think of what Jane Ward was saying last episode about how just defying norms and defying categorization and conventions is really exciting and hot to me and to other queer people.
00:45:00
Speaker
You know, that wasn't a sex party, it was just a party, so I don't know how consent would play out in there. But it was just such a fun space, and I wonder what the world would be like when it starts to get less gendered in that way, and where gender becomes more of a spectrum than it is, and it's not so binary. You know, how will all the things we've just talked about be changing over the next few decades?
00:45:25
Speaker
Yeah. Down with the binary. Down with gender. Down with it all. Let's recreate it. Yeah. Well, thanks for listening to this episode. Please send us your thoughts and comments on everything we've just been discussing because it's very complicated and nuanced and like, I don't know all the answers. I was just going to say we aren't qualified to have this conversation really on our own, so please take part in it.
00:45:49
Speaker
Right. This is our experiences, which we want to share, but there's all different conclusions. You can draw on all different ways to move forward towards a more fair and just society. Yeah, completely. Stay tuned for our next batch of episodes. We've got some awesome interviews coming and thanks for listening.
00:46:14
Speaker
Our music is by Ross Mincer and graphic design by Caitlin Wineman. This podcast is edited by Moxie Pung and is also produced by Moxie Pung, Matt Loomis, Alex Boyd, and me, Rob Cohen. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.