Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
VOY: "Learning Curve" (s1e15)
152 Plays2 months ago
SAY "CHEESE," TUVOK! When some surly MaQuis crewmembers refuse to conform, it's up to Tuvok to whip them into shape. Meanwhile, Neelix cuts the cheese and it winds up being so nasty that it makes the ship sick.
The grades begin at (34:16).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Starfleet Protocols
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trekmariko. Teaching. Running. Cheese. Energize. Take notes. The purpose of this training. Study hard. Is to familiarize you with Starfleet protocols. Remember every detail. You must be prepared for anything. Because now basic training is over. Life support is failing. And basic survival begins. You must leave immediately. Hope you took notes.
Introduction to 'Trek Mary Kill' Podcast
00:00:46
Speaker
Hi, I'm Hi, I'm Cherise. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a podcast that judges episodes of Star Trek with methods that are sound and time honored. Cherise, did you ever play Kiss Mary Kill in school or were you one of the nice kids and kids were nicer then? I think kids were just as horrible then as they always have. Okay. But I had never played that game. I had never heard of that game until maybe graduate school.
00:01:10
Speaker
Just curious because i always sometimes I wonder like people do understand the format of our show, right? We're just replacing one one word with another. um So that's what we're doing to have some fun with episodes that have a range of quality and certainly levels of fun throughout.
Reflecting on Voyager's First Season
00:01:28
Speaker
We've been looking back at episodes of Star Trek Voyager's first season as it's the 30th anniversary of its debut. And i'm we repeat this every time, but I have to say this, I can't believe it. Yeah, it's totally unreal.
00:01:43
Speaker
And certainly the ones that I chose, I guess were ones I kind of remembered, which is were more strongly than others. And um we usually ask, do you remember the first time you saw this episode? I'll talk about that a second, but ah to conclude our month.
00:01:58
Speaker
of January, looking back on the 30th anniversary of Voyager's debut, it's learning curve. The 15th and final episode of season one, it premiered on UPN May 22nd, 1995, written by freelance writing team Ronald Wilkerson and Jean-Louis Matthias, directed by David Livingston. Memory Alpha describes it. Tuvok conducts a training session for Maquis personnel. Meanwhile, Voyager's bioneural gel packs are mysteriously failing. Bum bum bum.
00:02:28
Speaker
One Memory Alpha doesn't mention, no, that's the needs that- That's a throwback from our podcast. We used to do it at the end of every episode summary, no matter how great or how stupid. We would always be like, bum, bum, bum. Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next? That's the TNG g podcast. You can still go and listen to it. It covers every episode of Star Trek The Next Generation.
00:02:50
Speaker
It's fantastic. Check it out. Especially if you're having a rough day. Just listening to you and Andrea was great. So highly recommend. Check that out.
Challenges in Maquis Integration
00:02:58
Speaker
um What Memory Alpha isn't telling us, though, is that these maquis are surly and insubordinate. They're not just like out of shape and dumb, right? that one That's the other implication. No, they're just like, I don't even want to be here, but you're my only ride back to the Alpha Quadrant. And they're not wrong. Exactly. They're not wrong about any of that. That's right.
00:03:20
Speaker
ah So they really need to get made into ship shape by someone who taught at Starfleet Academy for 16 years, which is Tubach. And the reason why the bio-neural gel packs are failing... Neelix's cheese.
Cheese in Sci-Fi and Realism
00:03:33
Speaker
That's right. It's this episode where Neelix's cheese came came into play here. Can I just say I'm so happy that they still have cheese in the 24th century? and just That just made me happy. I was like, oh, they still have cheese. Because if you have read or watched The Expanse, which I think is an extremely realistic space opera um story,
00:03:54
Speaker
there's no more animal products because animals are so like rare at that point. So everything is made in vats of fungi and it's like synthesized to taste like animal products. So it's like fungi cheese and fungi meat, et cetera, et cetera. So like I don't know, just seeing real cheese that came from some kind of animal was exciting for me.
00:04:18
Speaker
You've been living in the expanse right now is what what it sounds like. I mean, just thinking about like our planet, it makes more sense for it to become the expanse at some point where it's like, yeah, we all got to switch to plant based and synthesize because we just don't have the space and resources and whatnot. But I feel like the expanse is still a best case scenario right now, especially when you look at the climate where now we're going to hit, we're already over 1.5 C, we're going to hit 2 C probably by the end of the year, just because. ah um so yeah Yeah, no, the expanse is absolutely a best case scenario. It's like, if your planet fails, herell here's how you could still live. So I would love to get this technology like invented and up and running sooner rather than later. But yeah, Star Trek is more fantasy land, post scarcity, we could have everything.
Voyager Episode Count and UPN's Decisions
00:05:08
Speaker
And I would assume synthesized cheese would still taste yummy.
00:05:12
Speaker
but um right yeah right but you're trying to keep those replicators, right irration use those very limited. yeah So this is the 15th episode, but I'm sure if you look at a lot of online guides and such, it'll say the 16th episode. And that's because Caretaker is a two-hour episode, so it's considered two. But this is the 15th episode. There are only 15 weeks of new episode. That's what I do that way. No, it's super confusing. It did the same thing for TNG because... Yeah, so sometimes... It counter at four points like a two-parter, which is confusing. so Right. like the the most accurate way to say it when you see that happen is like there's a so what was tng 176 178 178 but so it's 178 hours right because i think encounter a far point really is one episode all good things is one episode correct
00:06:05
Speaker
So that's the, that's kind of the, the tweet there. Anyway, I just want to mention that because sometimes I think I do mess that up when I'm relating it, but I do try to keep it to the episodes, not the like production order. And if it's a two hour and all that, we just messed it up for the entire first season. We were like, ah, it's like episode four or five or three or something. Anyways, here's the name of it. So that's like a good name of it yeah you'll find it.
00:06:31
Speaker
but The other part of this episode besides the not confusing, but just ah the production order element is this was not intended as the season finale. This was simply this was because UPN the executive running UPN had come over from Fox.
00:06:50
Speaker
And and fox but when Fox was still the first new kid on the block in the 80s, early 90s, they had a plan of like, well, ABC, NBC, CBS, they all start their fall premiere week in September. Well, we'll beat them to the jump by putting new stuff on the air in late August. So what they would do, because usually the production season starts up You know, writers are back in May or June and then there's there may be shooting in July. Maybe I think that's how it used to go. And that's that was the rhythm. So July, August, that's like not enough time. So they would just hold over episodes from the previous season. So I'm not sure it doesn't sound like the show had any control over what episodes those were that were selected. So it just so happened that they lopped off or they picked some amount of the final five or six episodes as like we're holding these until next season. So.
00:07:45
Speaker
The season two premiere, for example, the 37s, that was actually the one that was intended to be the season finale. In fact, it was maybe even going to be a two hour episode. And so that wound up being the season premiere. By the way, listeners, we've already killed that one. That was an episode when we first started Trek Mary Kill. I was like, some episodes we're probably not going to do. They're pretty famously terrible. But there are some that are on the line where I want to revisit. And Kristen immediately threw out like, oh, that one with Amelia Earhart.
00:08:13
Speaker
Yes. i i'm going to I'm going to jump on your train and go ahead and kill that episode as well. Just as soon as you said it, I was like two hours, two hours. This is freaking episode as neutral zone from TNG with the throwbacks.
00:08:28
Speaker
And that was a terrible episode. And that episode was written by fans. So I can't be too hard on them because yay fans writing an episode. But also, dude, fans wrote this episode. So like, you know, that explains the quality. Why are we doing it again with 37? Two hours? I didn't know that the neutral zone was written by fans.
00:08:47
Speaker
It was. It was written during the strike, like the writers strike. And so they needed one more episode to like finish out the season and no writers would do it, you know, because they're also like, the where are the Romulans? We need the Romulans to come back. I can't possibly tell you what the fans were thinking, but two people wrote that script and it got selected and filmed and shown. So I don't know. There's a lot of there was a lot of moments where they could have been like, wait a minute.
00:09:16
Speaker
This is trash, but they didn't. Then that's like the scabbiest episode of Star Trek. Wow. Well, I don't know if it's the most one because I don't know the whole history of all the tracks, but I do know for that one because I was like, why is it so bad? That's crossing a picket line. I've never heard of any other episode where they cross the picket line. Especially since the episode right before that was Conspiracy, which I really like that episode because it's like Starfleet's evil. They're all being taken over by creepy scorpions, you know, and it's like this really high mystery, high action episode. And so that feels like the season finale. But no, the very last episode is this one. That's so dumb. Why didn't they switch the order and then make it like, well, they're at Earth because they're dropping these people off.
00:09:59
Speaker
or they've got their yeah their lives that no longer exist. Yeah. I don't know. My, my guess is we talked about this before. I think maybe even last week about how when they dropped the episode is not when they filmed the episode or when they planned for the episode to drop. So who in the world knows? Maybe there was this gap during the writer strike and they were just like, we need anything because we have to fulfill our obligations. And that episode had to become last because it was the last thing they filmed. I don't know.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, this was not firmly intended to be anything close to when they made it conception. They it didn't have an inkling that it could be like nothing. It was just like this was episode 15. Yeah. In the middle of ah of our season. um I did always have a thought about the neutral zone of like, who is the future guy in Enterprise? Do you at least know that, right? There's like some. OK, there's like a silhouetted figure. There's a temporal Cold War going on. Basically, Enterprise says there's a time war going on.
00:10:55
Speaker
Is that where the time war came from in Discovery? Yes, that's the carryover from Enterprise. Oh, I thought it was a carryover from the year of hell on Voyager, no but that makes more sense. So Enterprise, so while they're making Enterprise, they're like, maybe if we had gotten to season five or season six, we were going to show that Archer was the future guy. And I'm like, that's too clever by half. And now I'm like, I had a thought of like, like,
00:11:19
Speaker
The guy from the neutral zone, oftentimes, the capitalist, the rich asshole, I'm like, what if he just like, you dropped Gordon Gekko in Star Trek? What does he do? He's like, these rubes, I can take all the resources and like,
00:11:36
Speaker
hyperdrive my capitalism. So I would just like, it should just be him and say like, capitalism is the thing that's the the implicit meta commentary being like, our capitalists drive and our move away from a utopian future. This ideal for a society is the thing that's killing Star Trek. That was my better thought about that all these years, because he was like, what would he try to do? He'd like try to live forever. So he'd like, yeah it wouldn't be the same actor, obviously.
00:12:04
Speaker
He'd probably try to, oh, I'm exploiting resources in this time, but what if I could go back in time and like do this and that? So that was my supervillain arch there. He would biff it from Back to the Future, right? Yes. He would just yeah, why not? Why wouldn't you do that if you were sketchy and had a time machine or whatever? Yep. But now I know it's a scab written, forget it, moving on. No, I despise that
Maquis Storyline Intentions and Evolution
00:12:29
Speaker
episode. to ah The maquis storyline if Voyager this was in the series Bible it was conceived as You know, it's funny. ah We owe a lot at stars Star Trek fans to Michael pillar and Jerry Taylor ah For all their contributions to the next generation and even in Voyager Jerry Taylor rest in peace She had a lot to do with the Janeway the development of Janeway and always that at some point in their lives
00:12:57
Speaker
They just didn't, they forgot that you could have arguments with people and not win them because I think they were both used to winning arguments because they were always the boss ah and, or just wouldn't suffer fools. And so what their idea of conflict was has always to me, especially as they got older and the shows are on.
00:13:17
Speaker
aged, just got ah toothless and kind of limp. And like a lot of ways, this is season one of Voyager, but it's really season eight of TNG, g right? It's the same group carrying over to another um year of doing Star Trek with some of the dressing change. So I guess what I'm getting at is Deep Space Nine have been very successful with mixing, even though the ratings weren't great.
00:13:44
Speaker
Like the conflict they're able to get from Starfleet characters in a non-Starfleet situation. They're like, how do we create drama on the ship? If everyone's getting along, we'll have this Maquis crew. and we won't develop the Maquis crew. It's Shikote and Torres, and then cross our fingers that and every so often they'll have a random one come in and it'll provide some juice. And I think the problem is is that they hadn't really defined any of their characters. And so what I'm getting at is you'll see that this idea is quickly abandoned. So 15 episodes, there's only a few in season one that really pick up on it. And then after season one,
00:14:23
Speaker
It being a focal point of the story happens two more times, season three and season seven. And that's it. If you want to say that Seska is like a part of that, I don't, I disagree. Cause that's different than what goes on, which is fine. Cause it's interesting. Seska's not even a real Maquis. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. She's not, she's not like pulling for the Maquis way of life or anything. Right. And I think it's interesting with all the Seska stuff, but that is in and of itself a pivot from like what the intention was of creating drama. Yeah, it's a great pivot though. Seska is such a great character. Like I love her as a villain because you're like, what? Wait, what? Wait, what? You know, she's so clever. Yeah. And she's a better focal point as a single person who's connected to Chakotay and Balana and Tuvok and stuff like that than just this nebulous blob of the Maquis.
00:15:15
Speaker
We agree. I'm just saying their intention, though, was to make it like an ecosystem and complete competing cultures, culture clashing and all that stuff. And it feels like, oh, yeah, no, they didn't do that. No, they didn't do it at all. And I feel like in this episode, it really brings it to a head of like, we've got some straggler maquis. We need to get him in the Starfleet shape. and And I'm really sitting there going, why? And also, why is that not a question? Why is that not being like they need a ride back to the Alpha Quadrant?
00:15:45
Speaker
That's the end. And actually Voyager owes them that because they stranded them there. And also they're participating like they're all working, which they could just be playing cards. Right. But they're we're not going to make them.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, they're wearing the uniforms. It doesn't seem like they're actually particularly interested. And everyone on that ship is there because they have a specialization and they have an interest in being there. And these people don't. So it seems like finding their specialty would be much more important. And I actually. Because they've got to have so many more skills than Starfleet in different areas. Right. Yeah. And they've got monkey skills.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, in even if their Maquis skills were killing Cardassians, there's got to be a way that that's actually valuable. Okay, but Deans, Kazon, we've got lots of opportunities to use those skills. And actually, we do see it in several episodes, but it's not the Maquis. It's just Bolana and Chakotay. But they're always like, I know a Maquis trick. And they'll do something that like only the Maquis would do and it gets them out of trouble or whatever. They could do that. They could be all kinds of guerrilla warfare stuff they know. They could be like, oh, no, we totally know how to scout out a cave.
00:16:52
Speaker
Neela's here. We're going to send them all key because we know how to do this. You know what I mean? They could have done lots of things, but now they didn't do any of that. They just were like, let's just make it one happy crew and and move on. Except for these people. These people are like kind of losers. Yeah.
00:17:04
Speaker
Maybe four or five episodes. yeah for the most it was Which I actually, like and I have this later on in my notes of like a good trope, I like that they had the four or five episodes of conflict between the Maquis because we see conflict in episode two. And then by episode three, they're like, all right, we don't see any more conflict by the time we get to Phage. And I'm like, I love that they add it in a few more times because that's more realistic.
00:17:27
Speaker
that the group, to your point, they don't want to be here. They got dragged into the Delta Quadrant just like you, but then you stranded them here and they just need to ride back home. And they're already kind of like dissident rebels and all of that. um There should be conflict, right? like They shouldn't be like, okay guys, let's team together. my Where's my wrench? you know It's like there should be some human problem with this. So I like that they sprinkle it in. I didn't know that was supposed to be a focal point though, um because it's definitely, definitely not.
00:17:56
Speaker
No, it's yeah, it's in the incident that happens.
Tuvok's Teaching and Maquis Integration
00:17:59
Speaker
It's like not unusual. But you know, series Bibles, you have intentions, you have a plan. And then as soon as you get on the battlefield, things change, you know, yeah that makes you when you're developing a show a lot of times, even you're like, you think this character is really going to pop. And then you get on on the stage and you start shooting. And then it's like, oh, wait a minute. Is this person, you know, like Brent Spiner is actually as data is really much more interesting than Riker.
00:18:24
Speaker
Well, you know what I mean? Like so something like that starts happening. So, um, I guess I'm just bringing it up because it's a focal point in the episode, but then we also get the decision that because they need to be integrated into the Starfleet side, which again, no pushback in a room of Janeway, Chakotay and Tuvok. Chakotay is literally just sitting there like a happy puppy use or just like a, like a, a good boy in the corner. And he's like, mm-hmm. And Janeway is like, Tuvok, you should teach these Maki because they won't,
00:18:53
Speaker
Chakotay won't be able to do it, but you were a Starfleet instructor and I'm like, this seems very strange, but let's talk about two box teaching style as you are a teacher and you would have some better input than I would. Yeah, you know, I thought it was really.
00:19:07
Speaker
weird ah that you know Tuvok, not weird that Tuvok was having a challenge with these three because having challenging students is part of being a teacher. But the fact that he was like, I've taught for 16 years and I've never had students that are this difficult and blah, blah, blah. I was like, really? You've never had students that are this difficult and you've taught for 16 years. Never. You never had one student who you couldn't reach and couldn't figure out and you had to be more creative and resourceful. I find that hard to believe. And also, um, I was kind of like,
00:19:37
Speaker
If the thing you're doing, and again, for me, this is like teaching 101. If the thing you're doing isn't working, do something else. You know, it's like if this strategy is not working and this is, if you're teaching, if you're trying to teach somebody math and they don't understand what you're saying, use a different analogy. Oh, they still don't understand it. Use a different analogy. Oh, they still don't understand it. Pull out some M&Ms. We're going to start moving the M&Ms around. If I have this many M&Ms and I subtract those, those many M&Ms, and if you get it right, you get to eat the M&Ms. And if I get it right, I get to eat the M&Ms. You know what I mean? like just change change up your approach so that you're successful. So this whole thing of like, I always do it the same way for every single student every single time and it's always fine. I was kind of like, um I don't know how great of a teacher you are then. um And then the other thing, which is something Neelix pointed out, and I was like,
00:20:20
Speaker
this is such so helpful for him to hear, is that um the cadets in Starfleet are they want to be there, right? You have to apply at least as far as we saw with Wesley Crusher, you have to apply to get into Starfleet. So all these students are like raising their hands like I really want to go to Starfleet when I grow up. So they're all a little, you know, eager cadets when they get there and they're really ready to learn and they can't wait to get in there and get their hands dirty. This is a totally, totally different student profile.
00:20:46
Speaker
than somebody who's like maybe been sentenced to your class instead of going to juvie. That's more what you're dealing with here. These are not eager, can't wait to learn. This is the opposite of that. But they're not juvenile delinquents. They are theyre adults in in a ah situation they never expected like everyone else.
00:21:07
Speaker
And ah I think that's a great perspective. But am I remembering this correctly? When you apply to Starfleet and you're not at Earth and you're like, you know, the emergency test to see if you're worthy is you sit in an office and then you hear a distant noise. And when you go investigate it, you have to rescue someone who's play acting being injured. so I mean, if you're Wesley Crusher, yes. But but the final practicum is facing your greatest fear, which I feel like is a pretty difficult test to try to create individually for every single student. um And I'm not totally sure how practical that is, because whatever they come up with, it's not going to be the Borg. Yeah, I mean, it's not going to be something that you're going to probably see some wild crazy things you're going to see on these ships. But yeah, so it's just it's just a different it's totally, totally different. I agree with you with the whole like,
00:21:59
Speaker
Why are we integrating them? I mean, it's because they want but one big happy family. But Chikote made this point in the first, in the third episode or whatever, when he was when he was pulling for Balana to get more position and power is he was just like, we are on your ship because our ship was destroyed. So now we kind of have to conform with you. But you're not giving us any you're not giving the maki any equality or any power or any authority. So we feel like second class citizens. What would you have done if you were on our ship?
00:22:28
Speaker
if your ship had been destroyed and you guys all had to join the Maquis ship and you had to do things our way, you know? And Janeway was just like, captain's prerogative. I don't have to answer that question.
00:22:38
Speaker
Um, the other part is, is I think two bucks lack of goal was, or the amorphous goal was a big problem.
Rebellious Starfleet Officers and Neelix's Cheese
00:22:49
Speaker
Like it's not that he needs to curtail the curriculum for each person. Mr. Dolby, we need to make you less of an asshole, you know, like that. But the point is, is like, what are they trying to get them to do show up on time? Cause I feel like a small goal would actually have been much more logical. But if it is that they're out of shape.
00:23:09
Speaker
They're they're missing their duty assignments. They're making mistakes that are easily fixed. Like that seems like in the cargo base scene where they're introduced, like a perfect opportunity for him to lay out what the expectations were. Because this isn't I think it's kind of like a it's a boot camp, but it's like a boot camp to get them. It's like when actors go to break their spirits and get them get the form. That's what I feel like it is. It's like run 50 laps. Yes. But in that's a great point. But laps on a starship.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yes, by but but the goal should have been because even when like actors go to boot camp like by the end of this boot camp you'll be able to shoot your 30 day movie as a soldier. Right. That's like what this is. This is a boot camp to be like this will allow you to serve in the capacity on the ship.
00:23:56
Speaker
After that, we'll we'll go from there. But right now, you're endangering the safety of the ship or whatever by doing by this, isn't that? yeah and And that's what was missing because I think that's what the conflict was just ah basically the writers being like, well, we ah we assume the audience knows we want these characters who are not in Starfleet to then be in Starfleet by the end. And I just don't think that's that's the goal that makes the show bland. It's like, oh, by the end, they're all Starfleet and whatever.
00:24:25
Speaker
We'll get into it more with the grades, because I'm sure we have some more thoughts, some production perspective. um One of the motivations for writing this episode by the freelance team, Wilkerson and Matthias, they wanted to create these rebellious officers. One of the things that intrigued us, Matthias admitted, was the chance to step out of the Starfleet persona. Star Trek people are pretty darn nice, and for troublemaking writers, that can be a problem. The story also gave the writing duo a chance to explore Tuvok,
00:24:54
Speaker
They had introduced a Vulcan, they wrote a Lower Decks, the TNG g episode, and they introduced a Tariq in that one. It's not like Lower Decks, this whole episode. It was like, let's talk about non-bridge officers and their challenges with like assimilating.
00:25:09
Speaker
And the show said, thanks a lot and we'll never bring these characters back. so ah
00:25:17
Speaker
The catalyst for the malfunctions because the cheese has really gri released bacterial spores into the air vents and inside the bacteria is a virus that the bioinural gel packs cannot fight off. That was suggested by story editor at the time he became a showrunner by the end, Kenneth Biller.
00:25:38
Speaker
He says, I came up with that gag that Neelix's cheese was causing the problem. During the story break, sorry, Ron Wilkerson recalled that the plot device was thought up and suggested during the story break. And they thought it was goofy, but and innocuous, but also was like a good B plot for this one. We liked that. We liked the aspect that something very man mundane can bring down something great and mighty. And they thought it added humor to the story.
00:26:05
Speaker
But also, Cannon Biller thought that the cheese plot device was not entirely successful. Casting Shane on the writers, he said, I thought it was hilarious, but I don't think that people got it, that there was some tongue-in-cheek element. That it was cheesy? That it was a cheesy plot device? Yeah, it was cheesy. Yeah, that's right.
00:26:23
Speaker
After all, a tiny grommet knocked out the power generators in Niagara Falls that blacked out in New York City for an entire evening 20 years ago. And a little break in an O-ring knocked out the challenger. Holy shit. So if tiny, stupid little things bring down the mighty, why not cheese? Okay, so cannon filler, that is like an incredibly insensitive comment because an O-ring didn't just knock out the tre and challenger. It blew up the challenger and killed everyone on board. And the O-ring was because of the weather And there was a crack because the temperatures got so cold. Like there's like a cascading effect. And the idea of like one little rain could bring down this big thing. I'm like, oh, how big is your heart compared to the rest of your body? You know, an air bubble gets in your, but like that's actually not a that interesting, but dramatic irony. Like it happens all the time and in nature, especially.
00:27:15
Speaker
um Anyway. Yeah, when everything's connected. Yeah, exactly. the The episode features the second of three appearances of Janeway's, what, Jane Eyre Gothic romance? Hollow novel? That hollow novel is so freaking creepy. I thought this was persistence of vision when it started. Yeah, that's the last time it appears. yeah I was like, oh no, not that one, because these holograms are so creepy. But nothing happened except for her being in the hollow novel. And I was still like, this is freaking creepy. Everything about this is creepy. Why are you playing this?
00:27:45
Speaker
It was interesting though, Rhonda Wilkerson, because the freelancers, you know, freelancers just write what they're told to write and they write it as best as they can. um You know, the flourishes they can add have to still conform to the style of the show. And obviously, this that plot, Jerry Taylor might have come in and just drop that in.
00:28:02
Speaker
But it was funny because Ron Wilkerson, the co-writer of this one says, it's a storyline that Jerry came up with and it's continuing. I'm not sure where it's going, but I really trust her because she's got great instincts. It's in Jerry's head so far and I can't wait to see more. That is everyone being like, what the fuck's going on?
00:28:21
Speaker
What are you doing this? This is basically, this is kind of like Sandrine's. It's another one of those like kind of like a swing and a miss where you're like, I see what you're doing here. You're trying to do something different. It's definitely different. Like it's very intentional. I can tell you, you wanted this on purpose, but I'm not sure why or where or how or what's going on. It kind of feels like that. Like it's not bad enough to be a mistake, but it's also not good enough to be like functional.
00:28:48
Speaker
It's not half an idea. It's like 38% of an idea. Yeah. The episode achieved a Nielsen rating of 6.1 million homes and a 10% share. It was the most watched season finale in Voyager's seven year run. But it was an accidental season finale.
Voyager's First Season Finale Reflections
00:29:06
Speaker
That's right. I don't know if it should count.
00:29:08
Speaker
Sometimes there are happy accidents and there are sad accidents. Sometimes there are explosions and cargo bay accidents. That's right. Because I feel like the crew being stranded on a planet and the ship taking off should just objectively have a higher rating ah than the one where- 30% haven't seen it. 30% of people haven't even seen this episode. I don't know what you're talking about.
00:29:33
Speaker
ah ah The four maki troublemakers, two humans, Ken Dalby and Mariah Henley, a Bajoran guy named Garen, and a bullion dude named Chell. Dalby was named after Jean-Louis Matthias' third grade bully, and Henley, at least, the last name, was named after Kate Mulgrew's stand-in. Meanwhile, there's a shot that introduces the two humans and Bajorans in the cargo bay when we first meet the gang. There's just three of them. And then the bullion comes in on his first line, the camera,
00:30:04
Speaker
kind of ah allows him to step into the frame. And then you go, oh, there's four people there, which I thought while watching it, like, that's fun. Because I i didn't ask you, do you remember the first time you saw this episode? I do.
00:30:17
Speaker
so um This episode is completely not memorable to me. Even when I started to watch it, I was like, I don't know what this is. The only thing I remember from this entire episode is the Chakotay punch. And I thought it happened in a different episode because I didn't remember the like what was happening in this episode. What was the context? So no, I don't remember watching this episode ever.
00:30:40
Speaker
other then This was this was the end of my of eighth grade for me this episode So I know exactly where I was. I was like, oh my god. I've grown
00:30:53
Speaker
ah go me I'm hanging out with my friends. I'm doing, I'm like out the sun sound double digits. It's great. yeah My friends are going to have a cars. Yeah. And day so just, you're getting wild about the summer and the future and all that stuff and how your life's going to change and everyone's saying goodbye and going to big school. You're kissing people. You didn't think you kiss and all this stuff's happening. And I remember coming into this episode, catching it at at the running sequence.
00:31:21
Speaker
That was when I first saw the episode was when they were running. I'm like, yeah what's going on here? And then and then watching and be like, that's what this episode's about. And then getting to the end, I'm like, OK, it reminded me very immediately of the episode um where there's the the life form that's eating all the energy conduits on on the enterprise. And only data has to like get there. They're running out of oxygen and data is the only one who can pilot the ship and direct the energy beam so that all the things can, what is that, cost of living? No, it's not cost of living. It feels like- No, that's the one with the exocomp. Is it maybe the one with Dr. Stubbs and his stupid egg where he has like the- No, that's evolution. No, it's completely different. It's the one where they're all suffocating and like
00:32:08
Speaker
Picard's shirt is sweated through. It's the same ending as as ah this as this one. Yeah, except it's not caused by cheese. There's something else in there. um I think they blow up something in the middle at the beginning and as their ship's leaving.
00:32:24
Speaker
Some dust gets down on on the saucer section. I have a feeling like this is an Alexander episode, but maybe, maybe not. There was an episode where something was eating everything in the ship and it was the episode where Riker went to stay on the Klingon ship and there were some like... Yeah, it wasn't that one either. okay yeah Well, clearly it's happened more than once. It's happened multiple times. Multiple times. Anyway, about that shot where where the bullion steps in the frame, which again, I thought was a neat shot. So did the director, David Livingston. he He thought that was pretty clever of me, wasn't it? And then Rick Berman was like, Rick thought it was hokey, which I get accused of sometimes. Loosen up.
00:33:03
Speaker
Loosen up, brick bourbon. What's your problem? It was a great shot. And the bowline looks so good. like The makeup job still looks so solid. yeah Even in the HD, I was like, ooh, I didn't notice rings before in the bowlines. I didn't pick up on that little touch. Hold on. We're going to do this.
00:33:24
Speaker
Can't just let it go, huh, Brian? I can't. oh Let it go. Let it go. Oh, come on. There's a thread here. What are you typing in? That one time when? No, actually, here is my search term. Data saves the enterprise. Everyone is suffocating. There's a couple of times when everyone was suffocating. The one where Loa Exana is getting married? Yes. Is that cost of living? Oh, that's not the exocomp one. Yes, I was right. It was cost of living.
00:33:57
Speaker
There's a nitrium parasite that's been that's been chomping away. She shows Alexander a good time. And I remember showing Alexander a good time in the last year and the mud bath. Yeah, I remember all that. I don't remember anything about the crucificating. I think I just got stuck on the mud bath. And then they get parasites that they picked up in an asteroid belt. So that's what's going on there. All right, let's get into the grades. We'll start with great scenes.
00:34:25
Speaker
Okay, I have three. um The first is I like when Bilana was talking to Dalby. And by the way, I could not remember this character's name at any point in this entire episode. So I'm glad that you wrote it down. and I can read it right now. Because I just kept being like that guy, you know, the guy. ah coming yeah Yeah, so I like when Bilana was talking to Dalby and um was saying that he was afraid to fail.
00:34:50
Speaker
I just really liked that scene where he was just like, that's not what I'm saying at all. And she's like, okay. And he was like, Oh, you think you think I can't pass some Starfleet tests? And she's like, then pass it. I just I like that she's kind of making um trying cool. You know what I mean? It's like you're trying to be all cool. Like, yeah, I'm not going to do these stupid tests and blah, blah, blah. And she's just like, okay, so you're not you don't think you're good enough. You're okay. That's fine. You know, and just kind of baiting him in a way that's actually helps him as opposed to baiting him in a way that's going to hurt him. So I like that. Plus, it just felt like her character, her personality to be like, okay, so you now all of a sudden you can't do your job. All right. You know, just I don't know. I just love that scene. Well, she was great. She was getting the episode even when she was talking about the cheese and everything. She's scar
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah. And she, she is the one who figured out to take the bio neural gel to sick bay. So she, was she really came in clutch, but that that's, that's Milana for you. Um, the second scene I really enjoyed was when Neelix came to help Tuvok in his role as morale officer. This is the only scene that I can recollect where Neelix and Tuvok had a polite, lovely conversation.
00:35:57
Speaker
Because there's always animosity between these two, really from Tuvok to Neelix. Neelix is always like, be my friend. And Tuvok is like, get out of my face. So I thought that was going to happen here, because that always happens. But here Tuvok actually listened. And I was like, what is going on right now? And I thought that was just a really good moment, because Tuvok needed to listen, that buddy, what you're doing is not working. And of course, he's not gonna talk to Jakote, because he also has beef with him.
00:36:19
Speaker
Of course, he's not going to talk to Tom Paris because Tom Paris would be like, yeah, you're always a jerk. You know, maybe he's not going to talk to Carrie Kim because Harry Kim's at Ensign and Tuvok would never deign to listen to anything that Ensign has to say. You know what I mean? And so Neelix was perfect because he's kind of like the Guinan. He's inserting himself in the situation, whether you like it or not.
00:36:35
Speaker
and How dare you? ah shit but He's not as good as Gynan. He's the Gynan in the sense that he is inserting himself into the situation, which is what Gynan always says. That makes perfect sense though. The next generation has Gynan. Voyager has the list. Voyager has nothing, okay? So they've got to work with what they have. And so he comes and inserts himself and it actually works. And I think it's very helpful. And I mean, Tupac can't really use the information because he's so to Neelix's point, rigid and inflexible. But he listened, like he listened and he tried him. He tried something different and didn't work, but he tried it. um And then the third scene is when he tried it, which is during the pool game between Tuvok and I put Kenneth, whatever. Yeah, between Tuvok and Dalby. I like that scene because I like getting a little bit behind the scenes. It felt like a Nick Locarno moment, you know, of just like, yeah, oh totally rough. And I've been, I've had a rough time, you know what I mean? And I actually really liked it. And I felt like playing pool in Sandrine's was actually a good backdrop for this conversation. So then I wasn't so irritated about Sandrine's because I was like, where else would they have this? They could only have this in the galley with two, you know, with Neelix standing behind him, giving him the thumbs up, which would have been awkward. Um, this was still awkward, but it felt like the right venue. Like I can't think of another place where this conversation could have not been awkward.
00:38:00
Speaker
That's a great point. More awkward. This is funny that ours don't overlap. um I put Chakotay bullies the former maquis into going back and and taking it, you know, taking the lessons from Tuvok. I love that he does the turn around the chair, sits on the chair backwards. Right? And the way he's like sipping his drink of like, yeah. Sipping his drink. Sipping that empty cup.
00:38:25
Speaker
i They just, it ends with him punching. It's just conflict. I mean, they're trying to make it clear, like the Machir are like pirates or, you know, just, dressed comment ah yeah, they're a gang of teenagers, I guess. So it's just, like I don't know, I thought it worked. I liked Robert Beltran's performance in in that scene um because it's the same, like,
00:38:47
Speaker
I'm just a happy dog face that he was making in the previous scene with Jane Wayne Tuvok. There's an tiger underneath. Exactly. So I appreciate that. And then the other one, i I maybe because I've never forgotten it. So I'm going to put it in there. But I think the sequence, the running scene, the jogging. Thank you. big have you're like I know Brian well enough now. No, no, I also had both of those. But then I deleted them because I like the other ones better.
00:39:11
Speaker
But yeah, I like the jogging because I also like the tour of the ship, which we talked about in that other episode where Jamie's walking around. I kind of like that, where it's just like, and we're on Jeffrey's tubes and we're running. I don't know. It's very rare that these versions of Star Trek do something that's off format in that they try to shake it up a little bit, do a sequence.
00:39:34
Speaker
that's, if it's actually, I don't know, a montage, I guess, is actually the easier way. How often do we see Star Trek doing a montage of any kind in an episode? It's very, in the 90s treks, it's rare. In the newer ones, it's like, that's the format. There's many episodes of Discovery that start with like a three minute montage, you know? So it's like, it's different, but, um and I think it works. They don't always work. And and if you are a reader of memory alpha, you can find David Livingston's comments about,
00:40:04
Speaker
how he did it and it's like basically the camera's pointing at the same space in every shot but they're making it look slightly different just by how they move the actors and all that stuff. I did think it was interesting that Tuvok said he cleared the deck and then when we get to the- And then there was somebody walking in the back. I thought the same thing. He cleared the deck and then increased the gravity by like whatever percent. And then some chicks like walking in the back doing her job. Don't you feel like this deck has too much gravity for you to be working on it right now?
00:40:31
Speaker
I almost put that as a, as a worst stretch troe of like, Voyager crew sucks. No, I have, Kristen and I have this very clear idea. It's like, Jamie and Tubac are the only people who know how to do it. And and the doctor is the only competent people on the whole ship. Everyone else is a like, just a mess. They're dumb. You know, Tori, you know, Tori is right now. I think Milana does school. I think Harry Kim does a lot of great things.
00:40:58
Speaker
I know, but they're after the first season, both of them present. They start presenting as like sloppier, more, you know what I mean? They're not as consistent in the first. You're pointing out a great moment from Torres. I'm like, I want to talk about when we get to the end about like looking back at the first season, but like she's really together.
Character Development and Consistency in Voyager
00:41:17
Speaker
Like when she breaks and gets clean on, it's different. And as the show goes on, it flips. It's like the times where she's got it to get like she always seems like she's on the razor's edge after this.
00:41:28
Speaker
But maybe it's just, you know, an explanation is like, yeah, because they're straight into the Delta Quadrant. It makes sense. But anyway, but anyway, Janeway and Tubacher, the other ones who keep it together through the journey is kind of what I'm getting at until Seven of Nine shows up, obviously. And then the show's just and then suddenly Harry came in and Milano towards I don't want to do anything. And they have to look to Seven of Nine. And she's like, well, let's do what the board did anyway.
00:41:56
Speaker
ah Yeah, great. Those are great scenes. so ah The ones you mentioned, I think are also pretty good. I mean, I like them. So great. We have five great scenes for this episode. Best Trek tropes. So I have two I already mentioned one, which was the conflict between the maki and Starfleet. I don't love conflict. You know, I don't love this conflict. It's not It's not super fun or exciting or whatever, but it's just realistic. And so I like that they added a little bit of real human feeling because that was one of my biggest complaints about TNG, though I love that show, is that crazy stuff would happen and people would not have real human feeling. Like all the kids got kidnapped and all the parents were like, what a shame. What are our next steps? As opposed to being like, where's my baby?
00:42:37
Speaker
I'll kill him or something. You know, so I just liked a little some realistic human emotion. And then the second trope, which i I've mentioned every single episode is Neeluk's cooking. I just get such a kick out of that kitchen. um The cheese part when he slapped the cheese into the pan was gross, but it did look like real food. I don't know what that was. Like, I don't know what I know sometimes they'll like take a potato and paint it purple or, you know, sometimes they'll take actual food and paint it to look more alien. Yes. But it doesn't have to be food. It just has to look like food. Right. So I don't know what the slop was that was supposed to be cheese, ah but it looked like cheese. And I just get such a kick out of their like imagining of alien cuisine. Yeah, it doesn't usually rise above. Let's just put items that
00:43:22
Speaker
no human being would put together put them together and just say that both those items are something else. So that did look like, like you said, it looked like butter or cheese or something. Or it looked like cream cheese. and then for um Cottage cheese. Cottage cheese, thank you. And then he just slapped it into like, carnitas. But I mean, when the show gets remastered, and I think Voyager is more likely than Deep Space Nine, but if you're gonna do Voyager, you might as well do both. And I think it will happen. But we'll see, we'll have a better sense of what this stuff is, what what it actually is.
00:44:00
Speaker
Um, that's a good one. I had Neelix's kitchen as a best trek trope too. People will be surprised to know I did not put Neelix as a worst trek trope in this episode. I did put his kitchen as the best, especially it was integral to the plot. Yes. And it wasn't, he wasn't annoying cause I do like the idea. Also he's like, okay, this one crew member wants me, me to make macaroni and cheese. I'm going to do it.
00:44:27
Speaker
I mean, if I don't know what that is, I'm gonna figure it out. And I'm like, well, first of all, who doesn't like macaroni and cheese? And then also, like, that's very kind of him, right? But that makes sense that he would do that. I'm sure there's not gonna be a lot of like food. It's very rare that people are suggesting things to him. But that was good. I like that idea. Like,
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah, someone's going to want macaroni cheese at one point. and And they could replicate it, but they don't. That's good. Maybe they should have and like events. Yeah, exactly. I also put Vulcan strength, even though Tuvok becomes overwhelmed by the toxic gas. Like I don't think a human being could have gotten as far as he did. He couldn't walk up the ladder, let alone. Yes.
00:45:10
Speaker
Fireman carried somebody back down the ladder. through all That's right. And he's pretty easily carrying him down the ladder if not for the toxic gas that's happening. He goes which just crazy. yeah When he picked him up, I was like, what's he planning to do? How's he gonna get down the ladder? And then he just climbed it. I was like, what? Yeah, he's a Vulcan. Yeah. i like that. You know, I I'm not a very strong person. And so even when I have a bunch of groceries, I'm like, okay, let's do one big bag at a time. You know what I mean? I'm not like my brother who or like most men I know who would carry every single bag they possibly could at once just so they don't have a return trip. um I would just carry one at a time because they're super heavy. So in this case with a a whole human and then you're climbing down a ladder.
00:45:48
Speaker
I kind of didn't know that was possible until this episode. I was like, how could he possibly get down while caring? Oh, he just gets down. What? That's amazing. That's amazing. ah Worst trek tropes. I have a couple. How many of do you have?
00:46:02
Speaker
one and my one is screwy science. A bacteria hosts a virus. So I am a microbiologist, I'm a germ expert and bacteria do have viruses, but the viruses that infect bacteria only infect bacteria. They don't infect anything else because that's how viruses work. So in this where it was like the bacteria is holding a virus and the virus is infecting the neural gel packs and it's like that's not how that works and that happens quite often in Star Trek whenever they do microbiology where it's like just enough real words to sound real, but like it's very, very wrong. However, it's just like a slight worst trope because I don't think most non-microbiologists know that. No, I've got you. I've got your bacterees. I put it under the techno-babble worst trek trope.
00:46:51
Speaker
because nothing about it makes actual sense. If the bio neural gel packs don't have their own immune systems in there, then that means they are susceptible to literally everything. Any andny ah bacteria, any thing that might impair its function, but the idea that it is exposed to the environment of the ship At all is what's absurd and i don't know the mechanical way that it would have been infected at all because when you see one it is a sealed pack attached to. two basic stuff Yeah so i don't so what they're saying there's air in there that actually that's how it snuck in.
00:47:32
Speaker
And would that affect the ship? It wouldn't transmit like a virus, even in that case. It doesn't make a lot of sense because this is like an incredibly dangerous technology. You're now saying why would any Starship have it if someone sneezes in?
00:47:47
Speaker
on the other side of the whole head than the whole shirt. It's sick and you can't cure it. Oh, there goes life support. but What a shame. It's like, okay. Also, the warp drive creates heat. so I mean, they could have done something like, well, the bio neural gel packs near engineering are fine. You know what I mean? like They don't do any of that is that. It's just like one size fits all and it's very strange.
00:48:11
Speaker
of, like, it there're it's not even consistent. It just raises too many questions. Like you said, like, ah you're basically saying, like, there is no way it could have hopped from the cheese to the gel packs, but they are creating a way, and that way still create asks more questions. It's just techno-babble nonsense. um And also, we've disproved Kenneth Miller's joke that it's actually funny that small things take down big things. Like, no, that happens all the time. That's not actually...
00:48:41
Speaker
That's not a joke either. Yeah, and it did make me laugh when I when i saw the bacteria came from the cheese. I wasn't like, oh, it's the cheese. No, that didn't happen. I was like, OK, that's OK. He's like, I don't think people got it. I'm like, because it wasn't funny. There's nothing to get, you see.
00:48:59
Speaker
A mentor of mine, a mentor of mine once said, he was like, most people think they're funny and they're not. And I was like, oh my gosh, you're right. It's like almost everybody thinks they're funny and almost nobody is. And that's really funny. That is funny.
00:49:15
Speaker
Yes. The only way that you people are funny is if other people laugh at what you say. That's the only measure. That's why comedians are never satisfied. They're like, but am I funny? Because they they they must have had a person like that in their lives. Like someone telling them like, ah trying to think of a non-problematic comedian. There is none. Someone tell them that they're very funny. I just went down a list. No, actually, every comedian has had a teacher being like, Mr. Eddie Murphy, you think you're so funny, don't you? You should be a comedian someday. I think I will.
00:49:53
Speaker
And then the other one I have, usually I put this as a best trick joke. This is why we do best and worst trick jokes, because I think they can switch off. Oh, yeah, for sure, depending on their use. the holodeck as a teaching tool. In this case, what was the point of that lesson? For them to work together, that was not the issue. They know how to work together. He doesn't like the way that they work together fine, but why do they need bridge training? They're never gonna be.
00:50:21
Speaker
never to ah fuck bring Like why didn't he give them a different task that's more realistic like being trapped in the cargo bay yeah and there's some kind of electric something and then they all figure it out. That's actually a really good point. Plus his whole thing was like, you guys need to learn how to work together. And then he puts them in some kind of like watered down Kobayashi Maru. Oh yeah. it's like Like you guys didn't retreat. And it was like,
00:50:48
Speaker
Yeah, to your, that's such a good point. They're never going to be on the bridge. They never even have to make that decision. So let's trade them on something they probably will do or like are likely to do a malfunction in a Jeffrey's tube. Like how do they work together for that? Plus what are their roles? Would they ever actually work together? Do they even see each other on the ship? Well, your that's what I'm saying. Like you're bringing up the whole point. of Like it's never backdropped that they are on this ship for an indefinite period of time.
00:51:11
Speaker
And they don't want to be here, but they do. They have like that conflict never gets to the surface, which is a conflict that is on its own. Really tough that you could have something interesting to say about it if you wanted about like, what are these people supposed to do? It is boring to sit there and fix a Jeffries tube. That's why this guy misses shifts sometimes. That's why she's late or whatever. Like it makes sense. It's like, oh ah have who cares? Tomorrow it's gonna just be here. We're not going to space dock. We're not whatever. And like making them care because the way, like the lesson should have been like,
00:51:44
Speaker
We don't know when we're going to get home, but the only way we're going to get home is if we care about getting home. How does that work together? yeah like What does that look like? You got to patch that hole today because you don't know if tomorrow another hole opens up. Yeah, exactly. So I think urgency to to create a you know Vulcan training could have helped anything like the the difference between being a Starfleet officer trained in the Alpha Quadrant versus being stranded in the Delta Quadrant. How has the training adapted? like and know the The holodeck thing was simply there, I think, just for excitement. Let's get a space battle in there and the bridge exploding and all that stuff. Yeah. But wasn't exciting.
00:52:25
Speaker
It wasn't exciting. It was just empty spectacle and it wasn't even that spectacular. I also thought it was creepy that Tuvok was like leering, like looming over them and just staring at them while they did this thing. I was like, can he sit down or pretend like he's part of it? I don't know. That just was like, imagine taking a test with your teacher standing, staring at you. That is not conducive to doing your best work because in a real dangerous situation, Tuvok wouldn't be standing there staring at them either. Right? Like, come on, dude. Yeah. Do you think you should have just been on the view screen, just soft and decided that we're never in the piano? A little picture in picture with him looking very disappointed in them. That's right, that's right. The other thing too, of what you were just saying is like, I think another, like there's two types of leadership. Well, there's more than two, but two ways to lead a group of people. One is plug the holes. I need somebody to do copies. So you, person A, you're gonna run copies. You know, another way of leadership is finding out what people's strengths are and then using them in those ways.
00:53:23
Speaker
right It's like, wow, you're amazing at admin stuff. I'm going to put you in charge of admin stuff. You know what I mean? And I feel like that was not done here. Not to be hypercritical of their administration styles at this moment in the Delta Quadrant when they're trying to figure out how to not die and get home.
00:53:38
Speaker
However, that would to me be a better solution for all of the maquis to be like, all right, we've got this new influx of crewmen. Instead of just making them cookie cutter cadets and plugging the holes, let's find out what they are good at and let's put them in charge of things like that. And then as we're talking to them about these decisions, we will tell them how important every single member of this crew is, including them. Like you are critical to our survival and getting back home.
00:54:04
Speaker
And you have to do your special zone of genius because we literally, because it's true. We literally need every person. We can't spare a person. We need every person's expertise and we need everybody to show up and do the work to keep us alive and get us home. I think that would have been way more useful and effective. And I think they would have respected that because clearly they had roles on the Maquis ship. They have a zone of genius. They had something that they were specifically recruited to do so they could keep doing that. But here,
00:54:31
Speaker
and help everybody versus being like, you just need to be one of us and fix this Jeffrey's tube. It's like, you know, fix this conduit. I don't know. That just feels kind of like very disempowering to me. Also, yeah. And Chakotay just rolling up in there, even though I like the scene, but he's basically like, Hey, you're just going to go back and take it. Okay. You know, like they have a time. It's not, it's not indulging them, but they have, there's the urgency is like,
00:54:59
Speaker
And the only way that you could really justify this urgency is if they were screwing up so much it was causing real big problems, which that makes sense to me. You could have been more dramatic in that way of like this guy hasn't shown up in a week.
00:55:14
Speaker
We're like, we're just going to his quarters to make sure he's still alive. You know what I mean? like Just like there's other things. What I'm getting at is like the whole intention of the Maki storyline was to create conflict. But the conflict doesn't just like people disagreeing or arguing with each other. It's just like here's a section of the ship that doesn't. It's not of the same culture like these people don't belong here. So what does that look like? And how does that create tension? Maybe people are uncomfortable with the fact that there is always someone sitting in the mess hall watching TV or whatever. Or like, whatever. What am I supposed to say? Like, they don't explore it in any other way other than, like, the people watching the show are Star Trek fans. What if we showed people who were cranky about being in Star Trek? And that is it. That is the the the top line. And it's so, it's very strange. ah they're Look at that. They're not having fun learning from Tuvok and being on the holodeck. Like, who wouldn't want to do that? That's still, anyway.
00:56:13
Speaker
Most cosplayable character or moment? Oh, the Starfleet tracksuits, for sure. I now want one of those. And I think it'd be so comfy to sleep in. Those look like ah um like fleece almost. Almost. I was very surprised to notice that. I noticed that more the detail more at the end when they're picking up Tuvok off the ground when they rescue him from the cargo bay. Yeah. Yeah. it's like It's like a fuzzier costume. But yeah, it has to be. With the pack, you have to have the pack and have it adjusted so there's no chafing while you run. That'd be less comfortable to sleep in. But yeah.
00:56:52
Speaker
But if you could only sleep on a wall, it'd be nice. You could just rest against that. You wouldn't be sliding down the wall. Yep. That's right. That's right.
00:57:01
Speaker
ah Now it's time for the line, Mr. Jones. Great lines. Did you have the same? Yeah, I have the same thing. Okay. Ah, twins. Okay. Best lines. I have two. One is when they're climbing up the Jeffrey's tubes and the bullion says maybe he'll slip and plunge to his death.
00:57:17
Speaker
It just sounds like really hilarious. And then he just keeps on climbing. I thought that was the funny line. And then um when Tupac was talking to Neelix in the kitchen and he said, I am not sure if I have the ability to find out what they are like inside. It just felt like a very data moment, right? Where it's like, you're telling me to do some emotional thing and I don't think I can do that, but I will try. So I i like that.
00:57:44
Speaker
um I had two box line in the hall deck, even though I didn't like that scene that were or that moment so much, of just when the ship explodes and he goes, you are all dead. I think he says, congratulations, you're all dead. He says more than that, but it's just the way he's like, you are all dead.
00:58:00
Speaker
ah and then In that scene with Neelix, Neelix is explaining why he knows there's a problem. And Tuvok says, I cannot imagine that there are visible emanations which allow you to interpret my mood. You are making wild assumptions. it's Distress lines or something are like emanating off of him. It's like steam coming out of his ears. There we go.
00:58:24
Speaker
And then this is the best line in the episode. I'm sorry if you disagree, but you would be wrong if one listener was to disagree. And it's Torres's line, get the cheese in the sick bay.
00:58:36
Speaker
Which, if we're going to say, Kenneth Miller is saying that the storyline is funny, it is encapsulated in that line that is funny. But then it gets undercut because Star Trek's not good at telling jokes of like, the doctor's going to want to see that.
00:58:49
Speaker
She could just say, get the Jesus sickbay, perfect punchline. um So anyway, would this episode be a fun hollow novel to play out? I said yes. I said, I don't know if I would love all the running, but I do love that they got a tour of the ship. I feel like there was some exciting moments. There was very exciting ending. I like the idea of it being kind of a choose your own adventure. Like, especially in the cargo base scene, what if he could play different characters? Maybe not the Bajoran, as he's like unconscious from that. But you know, if you could be the other ones. Also, he hit his head when he fell. The stunt guy really hits his head on the ground when he gets dropped.
00:59:28
Speaker
And also they're like, they get dropped into just a pool of toxic gas. So even unconscious, you're still breathing. And I don't think they would have just coughed and been awakened alive when the rest of the team pulled them out. So I feel like the ending would have been pretty dark. That's one of my favorite things about Star Trek. And also the expanse is like, we're going to get cancer from this. And then like, we better get back to the doctor. Checked ourselves from that. Like when they're turning the warp field inward on the ship to create a fever in the bio neural gel packs. That's the solve listeners to get rid of the virus in the bio neural gel packs is a like the radiation is probably unhealthy. And I think there have been other times where Dr. Crusher has been like, yeah, it's going to be, we're going to all need some radiation treatment, but then they'll be fine. I actually do like that. We maybe should have put that as the best structure. Yeah, exactly. It's like,
01:00:22
Speaker
No, no, no, it's bad. You just got to get to the doctor in time. And then you yes, it's almost like snake venom. It's like not good. But if you can get to a doctor, you'll be okay. It's totally like snake venom. And that's why I love like future technology. I love the medicine and Starfleet because it's exactly that where it's like, all right, there's lethal levels of radiation inside this nebula. How long before we all die 13 seconds of OK, get us out of this nebula in 12 seconds and then we'll all get hypo sprayed. Deal. And it's like, wait a minute. Whoa, wait a minute. It's not days or anything. It's seconds. Maybe maybe we should get out of the nebula now. Maybe we should stop searching for whatever we're searching for. Just leave it. Well, that's pro that even comes up in a version that even comes up in this episode. They need to get the emergency power up to 80 percent.
01:01:09
Speaker
capacity to work. Yeah. Yeah. and And they're like, they get to 79 percent. And they're like, I think we can risk it. And like, yeah, that's ah's the same thing. Again, I write baseball part time and sometimes where you've got like this the stat called wins above replacement, which like is supposed to encapsulate everything a player does into one number. So it you can be like five wins above replacement. That means that's a very, very good player. But anyway, sometimes you get like five point four or five point And it's like, he's worth 5.8 words. Like you can just say six, or you can just say five. Like the percentages matter, but sometimes in your calculations, you know, Torres's calculation might've
Technical Consistency in Star Trek
01:01:51
Speaker
been when she said 80%. Like the actual math might've been like 79.67%. And it's like, what? And then it's like, what if 79% is not enough? That would suck. Yeah, that would suck. Because you can't do it again. So yeah.
01:02:07
Speaker
ah's would Would you play this hollow novel? Yes, I did. At first I said maybe, but it's like the idea of toggling. Who would you play? I was just thinking about it from the Tuvok perspective. Tuvok also has the solve. He's like, hmm, cheese, you say. Cheese is this bacteria.
01:02:27
Speaker
He really has that Sherlock Holmes face. So yes, I would play it. Even with the running, it might be interesting to do the running with the increased gravity on the deck. That was something. I'm just not in very good shape. That's why I was like, ooh, I don't know about the running. I would point to the person who randomly walked by the deck I had closed off, be like, what are you doing here?
01:02:48
Speaker
Get off of this deck. The deck is closed. They're not done running yet. They have to go. These two are stragglers. that You know what he didn't do? He didn't lock the turbo lifts from opening on that level because they took the Jefferies tubes to get there. So maybe that's that's the problem. Maybe that's on Tupac. Well, of course. And she forgot and all that stuff. yeah And the like a higher level of gravity didn't tip her off either. That's right. That's right. She was just like, oh, I'm really.
01:03:15
Speaker
Yeah, my thighs are feeling it now. I don't know why. All I've done is walk three feet, but okay. The Antoine Caridian Award for Best Performance. I gave it to Kenneth, whatever, um because I felt like he played a really good angsty adult.
01:03:30
Speaker
Armon Schultz is his name, is a character actor. He's still working to this day. He's 65 years old. I put him for my Shatner, but I won't, I don't like to disagree on these. It's not, so you like to either way. So he's he's jumping in one of these categories for it. Yeah. Uh, so then who'd you have for the Shatner? I had Jokote during the fight.
01:03:50
Speaker
That's a good one. That's great. All right. That's perfect. Who did you have for that? I didn't know who I thought like gave it. I kind of liked your Balana highlight of like, she is good. she I like when they have the performance as like the award for best performance of like, do they do more than one thing in an episode? You know,
01:04:10
Speaker
show more than one side of their character. And Torres kind of does because she's one way with the maquis and she's the chief engineer and all that stuff. I was giving it to Kate Mulgrew though because I really liked her acting when they're all like suffocating and overheating. So her performance was really nice, but yours are better. So we're going to go with yours. Shoot to thrill. Most exciting image or sequence? Oh, for sure. The sick bay. That's not sick bay, cargo bay. The cargo bay smoke.
01:04:37
Speaker
And like, it just looks so cool. And the sparks and the things falling or whatever. I put that, like I lumped it all together because the warp fever is what I'm calling it. Just like the whole sequence of what's going on with the ship and then what's going on in the cargo bay. I agree. That's the name of my Starfleet cover band. The warp fever.
01:04:58
Speaker
ah like So i I agree. I think that whole sequence is exciting. It has the tone of exciting. David Livingston's really good at directing those action-y elements in an interesting way. um Actually, the credit to him, and we don't usually like spotlight the directors, but like he brought something to it, I think. If not for him directing it, this episode could have been really boring. That's true. What part of this will he teach at Starfleet Academy?
01:05:27
Speaker
I put that apparently you can survive for quite some time without any life support.
Importance of Life Support in Space
01:05:32
Speaker
That was surprising to me. I thought life supports out. Well, we're going to die. But it was like life supports out. How unfortunate. OK, we'll increase the power to such and such. And I mean, how are we breathing? It's because like isn't life support constantly pumping in air? Sure. But then then the CO2 levels start picking up. I think you have ah you have like eight minutes, 10 minutes, I think, when it goes out.
01:05:58
Speaker
I really do think that's important to know how many minutes can I survive with life support off, especially in space where I'm like, man, you know, one of the other things is that it's heating the ship because space is cold and you'd freeze to death. So that was another thing. But because of the warp fever, um they counteracted the the whole freezing to death part. But yeah, I just was I was waiting for them to be like life support. Like, oh, no, we really need that. But they were like, yeah, just reroute life support. It's fine.
01:06:25
Speaker
They also only have 150 people on board, and I don't know if that has any bearing on it or not. but yeah Also, Neelix's Kitchen, that chews up some extra oxygen. All that smoke and gas. Just a constant fire going on.
Corporal Punishment in Starfleet?
01:06:46
Speaker
What did you put for what they'll teach at Starfleet Academy? I'm curious. Do you think they really inflict this much corporal punishment on their students?
01:06:56
Speaker
So we find the bullying guy has to de-goss the transporter by hand, and it's going to take him a full majority day yeah to do it. 26 hours. Yeah, that was that was kind of like hazing. like i don't know That's like scrub the floor with a toothbrush. What's the point of that? That's what I'm saying. like is So that sounds like standard Starfleet practice if you if you fuck around, you're going to find out, I guess. it's like It's kind of strange. I didn't realize that.
Bio-Neural Circuits and Tech Reversion
01:07:28
Speaker
I guess they would also teach about the bio neural circuits in terms of
01:07:33
Speaker
no immunity, but I got to imagine that they they check those bioneuro circuits. They seem like more trouble than they're worth. They really do. And at one point um in this episode, I think it's maybe it's too VOC or something, or maybe it's Shikote who's like, let's go back to isolinear chips, because this is not working. And Jamie was like, great, make it so. And I was like, oh,
01:07:54
Speaker
Oh, you could do that. You could just be like, we're not using these anymore. That's, you should do that because you can't apparently, cause Janeway said we can't replicate any more of these gel packs and we're running through them and we only have 47 left and we got 70 year journey, but we can, we can replicate isolinear chips all day long. So yeah, let's do that. Let's retrofit this bad boy and make it an older ship. That's more reliable.
01:08:15
Speaker
Yeah that's that's the key i mean there's a lot of questions about the binaural stuff that they don't even get into and i don't know how much juice you could have gotten out of it and certainly it comes up again as a plot point here and there throughout the run of the show but like,
01:08:30
Speaker
Another way of doing it that I was thinking as I was watching the episode was like, oh, maybe there's some, whatever it's made out of is particularly susceptible to this Delta quadrant bacteria, like the the synthetic, whatever the actual organics that they're claiming are in the bioneural pack, actually, because it's not like it's not like they took a human brain and like gooped it up. It's something made in the Starfleet lab. And it's like this particular synthesized biological material actually has some part of its DNA or whatever that's really not like they never considered that this would be something that the ship would encounter. They never expected or maybe like even just the idea of Neelix converting something into cheese, you know what I mean? Like causes a chemical process that creates a thing that no one could have expected in the bioneural circuits. But maybe that's just too complicated. But it's just like, I think the biochemistry of of technology, I guess, because you have to imagine there's some, especially with like data where there is like this idea of biological and synthetic, the Borg, like they would be teaching
Adding Romantic Tension to Enhance Storyline
01:09:37
Speaker
all about that. And they, you hear characters talk about that throughout the run of the the franchise of like, human body is like a computer, like it's got circuits, and it's got all that stuff. So there's that idea, I think they probably focus on that.
01:09:48
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better, Cherise? I mean, it could have been. We could have maybe seen some tension between the maquis or something. But I don't think that would have made it better, in my opinion. I don't know. What do you think?
01:10:04
Speaker
I think the episode needed some juice, so I think yes and I think yes. I don't know in what direction it would have come in on. You obviously, it would have been weird if either of them had had, if any of them had had like a relationship, even just like you know, friends with benefits with Chakotay or Torres, like that wouldn't have quite felt right. You could maybe imagine that between Dolby and Torres, but that wasn't because especially we talked about how we liked that scene where she was like a big sister to Harry Kim in the previous episode um that I think, you know, that just showing her different relationships. But I liked what the dynamic they had there. So where could it come in? It would have been like cliche for it to have been between Dolby and Henley.
01:10:49
Speaker
You know what I mean? like yeah Maybe, I don't know, if this were today, maybe the quiet Bajoran guy and the Bolian are fucking, I don't know. like they're just something I think some element of sexuality might have actually added to this to just build in this idea
Is the Episode Worth Watching?
01:11:06
Speaker
of like these are real people and this is like kind of a real circumstance. And I kind of think sexuality being more on their sleeve would have actually been a great way to further separate them from their Starfleet community that they were in that they were just like people who ate and drank go and like did the things they had other things on their mind than like what's on my pad you know what I mean like and and so that's why I think it would have made it better so Trek Mary or kill learning curve
01:11:37
Speaker
I gave this one a soft trek because I feel like it's better than the Living Nebula episode. Like the idea of this story is like complete to me. I get it. I know what they're talking about. Um, but I'm okay to make it a kill. I'm kind of on the borderline of that. Yeah. This is my, mine's like, it's the softest possible kill. Cause it might be an episode that it depends on your mood when you're watching it. o To me, there's like nothing egregiously wrong about it. It's actually pretty competent. like This scene has conflict. this is like a like The freelancers did a great job of making sure every scene had dramatic conflict. Not that the characters were yelling at each other, but there was motivation. that The scenes made sense.
01:12:22
Speaker
I don't think like notice we didn't jump out that Tim Russ gave an amazing performance, right? And he's carrying the load on the episode. Tim Russ would later, I think there's other episodes were two box. Great. For now, right now, Kristen and I feel the champion is his performance and resolutions.
01:12:39
Speaker
mainly because of his nightgown that he's wearing. but His pajamas, he looks like the man. He's like great. ah But ah I just don't think, for some reason, they put a lot of weight on the character. It didn't quite come together performance-wise to really sell it. You liked the Dolby performance. I was on the board, or I didn't like his motivation. He joined the Maquis because his girlfriend.
01:13:01
Speaker
was raped and killed, like it's just like, ah but like every scene it's like very competently done. The direction I think is what adds it to something. It is a very soft, but like ultimately this is all forgotten, right? None of this matters. yeah ah we don't We don't really learn anything except something really dumb that the bio neural gel packs can just get sick and die. Yeah, it's literally anything.
01:13:26
Speaker
ah Yeah, we don't learn anything new about our characters because Tuvok, even Tim Russ said in the research, like it was just a few episodes ago where he was bending the rules and breaking the rules. So why is he suddenly being saddled with this idea that he's a stickler for them?
01:13:44
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, it's nice, but I think it's a kill. It's like one, not that it shouldn't have been made. Sometimes I'm like, this one should not have been made. It's slept not good. I think it was a ah decent try and it was an attempt to pay off there that what was in their series Bible, the Maquis. And I think it comes up short, to be perfectly honest. I don't think it satisfies that. So you're still a soft trek, so we'll give it a vote. Or are you going to join me on the soft kill? i join I'll join you on the kill.
01:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's yeah a a noble failure. How about that?
90s TV Acting Style and Nostalgia
01:14:19
Speaker
All right. I want to talk about Voyager real quick as a whole because I had some thoughts about it when we we didn't watch every episode of the first season and there aren't that many. There's 15 like I'm saying. so ah But I mean, you love Voyager. It's your favorite show. has gone Going back to rewatching these first season episodes modified the feelings about it.
01:14:39
Speaker
you know It doesn't, it doesn't. Whenever I watch shows from the 90s or even the 80s, it always ah kind of amuses me how big the performances are because I feel like the actors are acting like they're on a stage like a play. And when you're in a play, you have to do you have to do so much so that the people in the back of the house can see you and and feel your emotions and things like that. But when you're on TV or movies, the camera can get so close, it can see your eyelash twitch, you know, like you don't you can be really subtle and have a really powerful performance.
01:15:09
Speaker
So I kind of like watching the oldie shows to see how big they are with everything. You know, they're like, come now so we can save the day. You know, it's like so big and it just kind of makes me chuckle and it and it and it warms my heart. Now, when I see big acting like that in present day performances, I'm like, what are you doing?
01:15:26
Speaker
Because like it's been a long time since we made the transition from the stage to the silver screen, so i don't like we can let that go. um So part of me has that when I watch shows like this, where I'm like, man, some of these performances are so big, but I love the nostalgia of it.
01:15:40
Speaker
um At the time, I remember just feeling really like just relating to Janeway a lot. And in the rewatch, I have a lot of, again, warm feelings and nostalgia towards her and towards the crew and and what they're going through and things like that.
Changing Perceptions of Characters and Episodes
01:15:54
Speaker
So on the one hand, I don't know if I would love this show if I watched it for the first time ever now, right? A big part of me loving it as well as TNG is the nostalgia. That being said, um when I go back and you know, just see some of the things that are going on. I'm always...
01:16:15
Speaker
I still love the show. I definitely still love the show, but I have different opinions about episodes that I used to like love episodes. And now I'm like, this is crazy. Or episodes that I was like, oh, I hate this episode. And I go back and watch. I'm like, actually, this is pretty good. So for example, the Tuvix episode, which I was like, Tuvix is the worst. I can't stand him. Give me back my characters I know and love and all of that. And then when I rewatch Tuvix recently, I was like, Tuvix is actually pretty great. I like him a lot better than Neelix and Tuvok. I wish they would have kept this character. What a great character. you know, like surely there's another way I mean, my I was like a 180 like a totally different story between teenage me and grown up me watching the exact same storyline and me being like, that's not fair. That's not right what they're doing. They've got to find another way versus me being like,
01:16:58
Speaker
in with to vix in which you know, I was just like get rid of him i'm over it and Stuff like that. I find really amazing that the show itself hasn't changed obviously but my perspective And how I see people and how I see technology and all these things is as different And so it's like I see it through a new lens and also being a podcaster, which i'm sure you can appreciate um going back to these shows I don't watch them the way I did when I was a teenager which was passively You know, just like letting it pass through my intellect. I'm watching them and i'm I'm tearing down every little thing. I'm paying a lot of attention to the characters, the plots, the storylines, the set, the designs, you know, all these things that I just barely noticed before.
01:17:39
Speaker
So on the one hand, that brings a lot more criticism from my favorite shows because now I'm noticing all the imperfections. But on the other hand, it brings way more enjoyment because now I'm seeing all the all the things that got right that I totally missed, like the beautiful Bolian makeup in this episode. I mean, it was just, it was flawless and not something I didn't appreciate at all before. So yeah, those are my thoughts. What about what about
Voyager's Identity and Antagonists
01:18:02
Speaker
for you? I know Voyager's not your fave.
01:18:04
Speaker
Not my fave, and going back and rewatching these early episodes, which I had said, they're like, oh, I realize I've really only watched these the first time they aired, or maybe I rewatch them because I would tape sometimes and rewatch occasionally. But I think what I am seeing at that after this month, my exploration of this is like,
01:18:24
Speaker
I think Garrett Wong was done dirty. I think maybe Roxanne Dawson wasn't done dirty so much as, but like Harry Kim just got so minimized when you could see the potential and Torres was kind of interesting. And then they just made her cranky. And I think I get why they started to focus on the doctor.
01:18:47
Speaker
in Janeway, and like that kind of does make sense to me, but that's because of the material. And like this episode especially encapsulates what I see, which is that they had a Bible, they actually stuck to their Bible pretty well. And at the end of it, it's kind of like they're blaming their actors for the stuff they gave them. And I think that's what the chorus of Voyager is like. We talked about the Gothic romance holodeck program. It's like they had 38% or to use the number they love to use.
01:19:16
Speaker
they had 47% of an idea. And, and I don't and I don't think that they did the work after that because it's so exhausting. And again, this was not season one of Voyager, it was season eight of TNG. g Everyone had been doing this, it was a factory, they've been doing this For a long time I don't think there was any introspection that ever happened and that's why when by the time I get to enterprise. Is out of gas like the whole franchise is out of gas and it's not until they start bringing in like literally outside voices in season three and season four where they're like they get a little more energy back.
01:19:52
Speaker
But by then, it was way too late. But like even here, you can see the signs of like staleness setting in. But this episode especially, again, like you said, it's like Lower Decks. It was written by the Lower Decks people. But like that where was the juice coming from from our main characters? Lower Decks, I think, works in Next Generation, because even by that point,
01:20:12
Speaker
the The bridge crew had gotten a little stale and like their adventures were pretty set and like what was going to shake up the format of the show here. It's not shaking up the format of the show. It's being treated as a shake up of the show, but it's actually integral to the concept of the show and they seem to have They're like, we don't want to do that anymore. we We couldn't find something interesting enough to do with it. So I think that's the thing. It's like they they got a lot of elements together. They didn't think certain things came together, so they ditched them. I don't think they ever gave them a fair enough shake and made real mistakes. No one's going to sit there and say, the line is, the Maquis storyline as a source of conflict was a mistake, but they're never going to cite an episode that proves that point. Because they didn't make enough.
01:20:59
Speaker
Right, you can with the Kazon. Like, what was the point of the Kazon? Like, there are too many Kazon episodes. But that was Michael Pillar's thing of like, I want to do the Kazon. And he was the show writer. The Kazon were basically Voyager's version of the Ferengi, where in TNG, they just kept bringing them back to be like, how about we try them like this? Oh, still terrible. OK, how about we try them like this? Oh, even worse. How about we try them like this? We put Seska with the Kazon. And it's like, ugh, we don't like the Kazon.
01:21:29
Speaker
And so I think that's what the show is guilty of any, if anything, in my mind is like they couldn't commit to their own unique ideas. And so they fell back into what had worked on TNG. And
Voyager's Strengths, Flaws, and Janeway Appreciation
01:21:43
Speaker
that's it. and And I see in the season one, you like just energize. I don't dislike the show, I actually like it. I appreciate it more now, but at the time, just that that thought has never left me. like At the time I was not impressed, but I completely understand just seeing a woman in command how
01:22:02
Speaker
revolutionary that was for a lot of people and that's very important. And and hey, good thing that Kate Mulgrew is amazing and Janeway is great. Because if she was just a token and and kind of an empty character that you can march on to. Yeah, it would have been very disappointing. Yeah.
01:22:22
Speaker
All right, well, this has been fun actually going back and looking at ah these first season because like you said, you like 90s TV, but I also like looking back at early seasons of shows because all that bigness is also born out of people trying to figure it out. And as someone who.
01:22:38
Speaker
Has made TV and been involved in all that. like It's fun to just see the the trial and error that goes on there. And because the Star Trek engine, even by this point, was pretty polished, you know the the error rate is actually pretty low. It's all really like story character stuff. Production-wise, looks great. You know what I mean? the It's all pretty sold in the pattern. All right, well, you're not going away, Cherise. You will be back next month. Forever. Yeah. I mean, next month. Next month.
Future Star Trek Content and Creator Connections
01:23:09
Speaker
where can people listen to you or see you in in between them? Well, you can find me on YouTube, type in at the sci-fi savage, and you can join me every single week for a live stream conversation where we talk all things Star Trek.
01:23:24
Speaker
Next month, we're kicking off a theme month of Inner Lights. That is the inner lights that our Starfleet captains have experienced throughout the runs of the show. We're also going to have our monthly animated spotlight on Lower Decks. It'll be Wedge, Judge, and First First Contact. Our animated spotlights drop on the first of the month, so look out for that. And then we're going to kick off the Inner Lights theme month with the inner light. And then Sharice, you will be back for Far Beyond the Stars from Deep Space Nine for its 25th anniversary. So look out for that. And then we have a couple of other ones that I'm i'm excited to foist on the audience as this is their inner lights. So those will be fun surprises. All right. Trek Mary K Pod on social media. TrekMaryKillPod.com on the web. And until next time, TMK out. Bye.