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Dr. Roger McFillin on Mental Health Diagnoses, the DSM, Spirituality, the Psych Profession and more!
510 Plays7 months ago
This week, we are joined by Dr. Roger McFillin to discuss the mental health field. We begin by exploring the importance of incorporating a spiritual component into health and the challenges posed by the transhumanist agenda. We also touch on the concept of self-improvement.
Dr. McFillin shares a pivotal story that influenced his path as well as his journey in general. Leading to a discussion on the need for accountability among practitioners. This segues into a conversation about the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and the issues surrounding diagnosis, with a crucial reminder that many individuals are suffering.
The discussion then broadens to address systemic problems within the profession and potential pathways for improvement. Dr. McFillin offers valuable advice for those working in the mental health field.
I hope you enjoy the episode!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome everybody to another episode of the beyond train podcast. I'm your host, Lee of Dalton episode 37 today. We're getting up there in the episode numbers. So that's always nice to see. It's a great journey. We're on, I think together. Uh, you guys always give lots of great feedback and comments on the episode. So I'm really grateful for all you checking this out today. We have great guest on Dr. Roger McPhillan and his work is fantastic. He has an amazing podcast. Uh, you know,
00:00:31
Speaker
He is doing some, some great work in the mental health field, uh, sharing a very important message. So I'm really grateful to have him on today and, uh, share with us. And I think we're going to find this really valuable.
Defining Health: Balance and Purpose
00:00:41
Speaker
So Dr. Maffillan, thank you so much for coming on today. I appreciate it. It's an honor to be on the show. Yeah. Great. So I asked all my guests at the start. I asked them an introductory question. I get them to define health and this is pretty.
00:00:55
Speaker
broad question and could be an abstract one, but it gives us a good baseline to work off. So how do you define health? Yeah, it's a great question, because I don't think we in society and culture speak about it enough. And I don't think it's a singular answer, because I think health extends way beyond just the physical. Of course, I think it is also the mental, the spiritual,
00:01:20
Speaker
and in a balance that exists in life. I think we're all here for a purpose. There's a spiritual aspect to my work and to what I believe in, and I do believe that
00:01:34
Speaker
Our existence here on Earth has great meaning and great purpose. And then to be able to, I think, live that out in a way that serves our collective humanity, it requires a certain physical, mental, and spiritual balance that exists. That allows us to tap into the energy that's present.
00:01:54
Speaker
So I think whenever we're talking about health in general, I think we have to be very mindful and aware of all aspects of health. Are we centered in our life? Are our priorities correct? Are we eating nutritious foods? Are we moving our bodies? Are we in enough contemplative practice? Are we nurturing relationships in a way
00:02:16
Speaker
That all allows us to live that purpose, right? We know that there are so many aspects of the human experience that are extremely challenging for us. But if we're not sleeping, we're not eating well. If we're not in safe relationships, if we're not moving our body, then we withdraw inward into the own illusions of our minds. Our bodies get sick when we don't do those things.
00:02:39
Speaker
So to simplify it, it is a state of balance that requires us to address the mental, the spiritual, and the physical. Very well put. I agree. Yeah, it's so amazing to hear all the different answers and approaches that you could take to explaining this question, too. I find it so valuable. You were talking about the spiritual there. And I can't help but think, and I think about this a lot,
Western Disconnection from Spirituality
00:03:08
Speaker
there seems to be generally, especially in the West, a movement away from any sort of spiritual connection. You know, sometimes I think, you know, if this is really one of the root causes of the increase in illness and especially like the mental health crisis,
00:03:28
Speaker
You know, it certainly seems that there is a disconnection there, which, which may lead to a disconnection and proper balance and even, you know, more materialistic ways of eating good food and, you know, spending time outside or things of this nature. So what are your thoughts on that?
Critique of Technology and Transhumanism
00:03:45
Speaker
I actually think that there is really a dark energy and movement that exists when you talk about the greater anti-human transhumanist perspective. There is a belief system that exists from specific elites that have an agenda.
00:04:02
Speaker
that the human experience that human beings are a very flawed species and there's a lot of mass experimentations that are done through integration of technology. That technology can be experimental vaccines or psychiatric drugs or experimental medical interventions in general, but it's also with the alignment of technology and
00:04:27
Speaker
AI. And that belief is really strong. I mean, it's not a conspiracy theory anymore. You know, those who are, who are talking about it are really open about it. And some of them believe that themselves that, you know, they could live forever, you know, that it's their own godlike status. And so we're very at risk, we're very vulnerable, because we are technologically connected at this point. And
00:04:53
Speaker
Not everything about technology is harmful, but you can see how addictive it can be, how addictive the actual idea of trying to change our human experience through technology
00:05:11
Speaker
how susceptible we are to walking down very dangerous paths and mass experimentation with the desires to improve our quality of life. Because there's suffering that exists, there's pain that exists. And I think we don't ask ourselves some important philosophical and spiritual questions. Is there benefit to facing darkness, emotional pain and struggle? And what capacities do we have in the way that we were constructed?
00:05:40
Speaker
in the way that we are designed to heal, to transform those experiences. Now, I think the mass experiment that has been going on for decades, really, but the veil is kind of being lifted, and so our consciousness around it is increasing. We're seeing the forces behind it. We're seeing the damages. Even when you go on social media, so much is just filtered through an algorithm.
00:06:05
Speaker
to fit your own belief systems. There's much more disconnect we have from each other and within isolation and detachment from our own experiences comes a collective unwellness, a sickness, an emotional unwellness, a physical unwellness. We are designed to be
00:06:26
Speaker
very engaged with each other. We're loving, personable, interpersonal beings. And so the attempts to try to alter our brain, the attempts to alter our body's response through these technologies, in my opinion, it's very nefarious. There's the use of authority, there's the use of the word science, it's gotten weaponized to try to mass influence people to follow that agenda.
00:06:56
Speaker
And I think it requires really good people to speak out against it. There needs to be a mass resistance and we have to change the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Very well put. Yeah. And so a big task to say the least, but you know, we tend to hear, especially where we're all about responsibility and, and sort of changing from within too. Right. So it begins with, with yourself.
00:07:24
Speaker
I think you're shaking your head agreeing there. Yes. Um, you know, doing the, doing the work for yourself. Um, and you know, interestingly, like something that really helped me, you know, was, and you know, this guy gets lots of love or hate, but Jordan Peterson, when he talked about cleaning your room, that metaphor always really resonated with me, you know, like the guy or not that resonated with me, you know, if you can't clean your own room, you're not going to go out and.
00:07:50
Speaker
change anything in the world of, of any sort. So you really have to begin with yourself.
Mind-Body Connection and Mindfulness
00:07:54
Speaker
And, uh, personally, one of my observations as well as through self-improvement, everybody around me improves. My family improves, my friends improve. It's a very interesting observation that I've had now. Is there a true causal relationship there? I don't know, but it's certainly an observation that I've had and, uh, seems to be very, at least, you know, leading by example in a way.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, I believe the mind is so self-limiting. And if we just follow what our mind tells us, then we're never going to be able to really accomplish the things that are available to us in this lifetime. And our lifetimes are short, relatively short. When you think about all of eternity, you know, it's a snap of a finger that we're in this human experience. But the mind in itself can become an enemy and it tells us what we can't do. It tells us what we won't.
00:08:42
Speaker
There's a lot of attack thoughts. You know, this person can hurt you. This isn't going to work out. This bad thing will happen. Your mind will go into the past. It will dig out some of the most embarrassing and shameful moments. And we're prone to ruminate on all of those. And I think when we talk about cleaning our own room, it's how much does our mind control our experience, right?
00:09:04
Speaker
And what kind of control do we have over our mind? Does it run our life? Because our minds can be so powerful, they can create a reality that does not exist. It's an illusion. And there's an emotional reaction to that illusion. When your mind tells you you're in danger, and there's no immediate threat or danger, like maybe it's going into the future, it's worrying and so forth, your body reacts as if that's true, right? Our mind and our bodies are well connected. And this goes back to your question earlier about health.
00:09:34
Speaker
That's the power of the human mind and we could actually get sick, not because of anything that's necessarily toxic in front of us or anything that's dangerous that's happening or we're infected with anything. We can get sick just because the mind creates that degree of threat and we live in fear and it lowers the immune response.
00:09:58
Speaker
The brain creates cortisol, chronic inflammation. So that's the power of the mind in creating sickness. The good thing is we have the capacity to not be attached to our minds. It takes work, right? It takes a level of awareness and consciousness, maybe a meditative practice or a mindfulness practice. You have to put time into it.
00:10:19
Speaker
But so much of us are living in that illusion in our mind. And when we're being exposed to social media, corporate media, and messaging that is designed to provoke fear and division,
00:10:36
Speaker
Well, understand the state that we are living in. We are living in that threat because we've created collectively in our consciousness. So when we talk about self-improvement, yes, it actually starts within us because we project that consciousness out into the world. So if you are creating this self-improvement in yourself, right? Well, then you're probably a kinder person.
00:11:00
Speaker
You're a happier person. You're a more focused person. Of course, that energy is going to affect everybody around you because it's a transactional effect, right? If you express this positive loving energy to those around you, that's going to be experienced by them. And it's going to alter the way they respond to you. So I think it's a brilliant comment. Dr. McFillan, I'm so curious about sort of what influenced
00:11:28
Speaker
your path, you know, maybe people that you've read or experiences that you've had, and maybe you could share a little bit about, you know, how you've come to this way of thinking and this approach to life, because I just find it amazing.
Dr. McPhillan's Influences and Trauma Work
00:11:41
Speaker
Well, it's been a transformation for sure. And when I look back at my life, it's always very challenging to pinpoint one moment because I think every experience in itself was perfectly designed to build this awareness. I'm a clinical psychologist because I'm called to do so. It's always been in my heart. As long as I can remember, I've always
00:12:04
Speaker
cared about human potential and human beings and felt the energy and the emotions of people very strongly. And then my mind was always curious, certainly curious about what is the meaning of life and what is the purpose of life? How do people create a life of value, one that's worth living? How do they realize their potential?
00:12:25
Speaker
And I can look back at various aspects of my early career, whether it's working in a children's psychiatric hospital or working in the juvenile justice system or in school systems, that my exposure to what a lot of these messages are and what has now evolved to be mental health treatment or idea of mental health
00:12:44
Speaker
In my heart, logically, I questioned their validity. I see people worsening. So collectively within our culture, how we speak about what it means to live and the messages, which I think are nefarious and purposeful, where your own internal experience now becomes an enemy in which you struggle with.
00:13:08
Speaker
And I've seen people harmed by that approach, whether it's the mass use of psychiatric drugs or using labels around mental illness to define someone's existence or reality. It's always been very clear to me that taking that approach creates worsening wellbeing and mental health.
00:13:27
Speaker
Now there's other things. I mean, there's been a spiritual awakening that has existed in my life that I think is occurring around the world. I've had so many conversations, especially, you know, 2019, 2020, post that era, that there has been a kind of an awakening of the soul in a lot of ways. I've had experiences in my life that are
00:13:52
Speaker
very difficult to make sense of in our limited understanding of just a three-dimensional material world. And I'll tell one story that I've mentioned on my podcast and I want to be actually more open about this. Right now I'm going to protect the identity of this person, but I do want to reconnect with this person too to see how open I can be about some other details.
00:14:15
Speaker
But there was a time a few years ago where a woman came to see me who was
00:14:25
Speaker
sex trafficked, kind of held against her will and was exposed to some of the most unspeakable traumas, well-documented, you know, raped by her captors. She was prostituted. What I think would destroy the mental capacity of most people, and it certainly creates such a severe trauma reaction that it would be difficult to be able to function.
00:14:54
Speaker
And so I think in all my career, it was probably the most horrendous victimization that I can remember. So she came into my practice and I was anticipating working with an extremely traumatized person. And that's an area specialty of mine. I do work with people who have been victims of trauma experiences, whether that's sexual assault or
00:15:27
Speaker
or ranges the gamut even, you know, with military veterans and so forth who've been in combat. And as one would expect, I mean, facing that type of, you know, horror, the horror of humanity in this way makes it very difficult sometimes to reacclimate back and feel safe. But this woman,
00:15:48
Speaker
was nothing what I expected. In fact, she was probably the most wise person I have ever come into contact with. In fact, I questioned right away why she was here to see me. And she did describe her experience and she described her story to me. And I was
00:16:13
Speaker
very interested in all the details of that story, that I let the story play out for a while. I thought, like I often do, I take time to evaluate the situation. So it's not, I don't make quick opinions. Someone comes in, they're not presenting with PTSD immediately in front of me does not necessarily mean they're not suffering or they're not struggling in some way.
00:16:36
Speaker
And after I was done with really that evaluation process, she revealed something to me because I basically said, you've been through so much, but it's almost as if it's affected you positively. And I have a hard time grasping or understanding that the degree of wisdom that you exhibit and some of the things you have said to me, I've never been said to me by anyone else. And then she revealed this,
00:17:04
Speaker
She said, when I was being tortured and I was being raped, God came to me and turned everything around into love. I was able to experience
00:17:19
Speaker
the abuse that my captors and torturers and rapists experienced in their childhood, and I felt it in a deep, compassionate way. And then God protected me from any of the pain. I only felt love. She escaped.
00:17:40
Speaker
And when she reported this to the police, they sent her to the hospital. She should have been evaluated anyway, physically for what she went through and to been taken care of physically. But she mentioned that not only to the police, but to the hospital staff and, um, they psychiatrically hospitalized her and drugged her with antipsychotics.
00:18:08
Speaker
And there's a lot of repercussions to that, including, you know, rights to your children and so forth. And she was able to get discharged and, you know, stopped using those drugs and then became very careful about who she speaks about this to, right? Because of how our cultural understanding would, would think about such an event. And when I told her,
00:18:36
Speaker
There's a lot more to the story. The stories and the wisdom that she gave me helped me understand a lot of things that maybe I was struggling with as a psychologist and as a man. And I told her at one point that she doesn't need my help.
Healthcare System and Drug Reliance
00:18:53
Speaker
If anything, I'm benefiting from your presence and you do not require any therapy or psychological intervention. And she said, I know, I'm just here as a messenger.
00:19:07
Speaker
And then she handed me a book and that was the last I saw her. Now that's not the only story that has happened recently. It's like the moment I became open and aware to see life differently than how I was seeing it.
00:19:24
Speaker
then all these opportunities were provided to me, these synchronicities, these connections. In this time, my podcast has jumped into the top 1% of global downloads. I have been on other podcasts. I have a pretty provocative social media presence, especially on X. I've,
00:19:52
Speaker
I write, I release a free article on Substack every Thursday and have done so now for a year. And I just recently started a nonprofit and the nonprofit is called the Conscious Clinician Collective.
00:20:08
Speaker
And I feel like that's divinely inspired where so many people who have reached out to me over the past couple of years are asking, who can I go trust to talk about my mental health? They're pushing these diagnoses, they're pushing these drugs. If I go to a medical doctor, same thing, if I go to a counselor, a therapist, a psychologist, they wanna put this label on it, they wanna restrict our understanding on it, and they wanna drug me, which is exactly what's happening.
00:20:36
Speaker
We have a quarter of our population on some form of psychiatric drug. 60% of our population is taking a drug. Drugs have become health care. We're getting sicker. We're getting sicker and more sicker physically, emotionally, mentally.
00:20:51
Speaker
So I choose not to live in the illusion anymore. The illusion that the modern medicine, the allopathic model, the drug model of care, the way we label disease, it doesn't serve our collective humanity. In fact, it's harmful. And we have to be open to new perspectives. And we have to come together, ethical,
00:21:18
Speaker
uh... health care specialist mental health care specialists to who value informed consent because a lot of the information about health care interventions is written is limited it's restricted it's heavily influenced by uh... corporations in particular the pharmaceutical industry and doctors have become legalized drug dealers they're creating mass harm because they don't have the knowledge how these drugs how these interventions came to market
00:21:47
Speaker
They're not aware of their costs, their benefits. They're not aware of alternative treatments. And so they don't provide that information. And the medical authority in the Western world has such a prominent position in our society that we just blindly accept their recommendations. And we don't challenge the fact that they know little, that they're part of a greater system that causes harm.
00:22:11
Speaker
And so i'm trying to align those healthcare professionals who value informed consent and medical freedom someone you can trust is not going to be influenced by shifting cultural norms and ideologies especially around things like gender ideology.
00:22:27
Speaker
Imagine being a parent and your kid's really struggling with fear or some other mental health related problems and then you can't trust the person that they're going to talk to that they might even alienate you from your family and they might push these ideological agendas on you and they might push a drug or this disease model.
00:22:44
Speaker
And so we have to come together. We also have to have access to accurate information. A lot of that information is out there, but it takes a lot of work and somebody who is specialized in being able to understand clinical research and scientific findings. So I want to support that too, is to build a platform where people can access information. So it's two components.
00:23:07
Speaker
search engine to find somebody who really does attest to the principles, and there's a declaration on our website, thecccollective.org, this is the Conscious Connection Collective, and it's the highest ethical standard. And with that highest ethical standard, you are committing to that, to what you would be attested to, and I think if people go and read it, their hearts will really understand how important of a time this is, and we have to align.
00:23:36
Speaker
You know, these things have happened to me over the past, you know, few years. It's really intensifying. But really, when I look back at my entire life, everything is kind of building up to this moment. And I'm just trying to follow my calling. Beautiful. Well, I really appreciate you sharing that story, especially that's extremely powerful. Yeah. And of course, I think you're hitting a nail on the head. It's it's really a systemic issue, too. And
00:24:06
Speaker
It's, you know, I, I don't necessarily place blame on individuals like doctors or, you know, cause they're.
00:24:13
Speaker
playing their role. And I think that they're misled and misguided, especially by the literature. And that's something that we discuss extensively, like on my YouTube and even the podcast here, we assess the papers and you go look at the papers. And if you read the discussion section, it's rather convincing. You read the abstracts, they're rather convincing. But when you go and you look at the methods and the results, it suddenly all sort of dissipates even in the placebo randomized controlled trials for
00:24:43
Speaker
you know, or clinical trials for drugs or vaccines, whatever it may be. So it's certainly a systemic issue. And, uh, but I think that, that, uh, people like yourself, uh, you know, there are many people that are fighting a good fight and, and, uh, making some great changes. So, you know, I'm certainly optimistic. We take that perspective here too. You know, it's that the future is looking, is looking really good in my opinion. And so, yeah, well, obviously.
00:25:10
Speaker
myself and so many other people would be so grateful for, for everything that you're doing. So, uh, that's, that's really amazing. Uh, you know, I really want to ask you, you mentioned so many things in that, that we could probably, uh, web out on, but I'd like to ask you maybe a little bit about the DSM and, uh, you mentioned diagnostic labels and how problematic that can be as well. Even being diagnosed with, uh, especially psychotic disorders or even going on anti-psychotic can
The DSM and Medication Critique
00:25:40
Speaker
really hinder your ability. How do I put this? It can hinder so many things in your life, especially in the court systems with custody of children or whatever it may be. So maybe you can just maybe discuss your thoughts on the DSM and diagnosis in general. Before I do that, I do want to comment on one thing you said. I do believe we have to we have to hold medical professionals and healthcare professionals accountable.
00:26:09
Speaker
Sure. Because if you, if you can look at the literature, how old are you? I'm 24. Okay. What's your background? I did a undergraduate degree in biochemistry and molecular biology, and I'm just finishing up a master's of psychology right now.
00:26:29
Speaker
If you're able to take a look at the literature and see that the conclusions in the abstract do not actually fit the quality of the study or the findings, which I've been able to do as well, then tell me why a medical professional who really makes an oath, uh, takes an oath to do no harm.
00:26:57
Speaker
And then goes in practice and chooses not to do these things, not uphold the highest ethical standard to actually understand the literature and instead just follows guidelines that's presented to them by a, presented to them by a corrupt medical organization.
00:27:13
Speaker
If the doctors who take that oath and are actually treating the patients are not accountable for their actions, then who is accountable? If we said we have to take care of our own room first, we have to clean our own room, right?
00:27:28
Speaker
And then we, what, place blame elsewhere? We're saying it's just a systemic problem, but you are part of the system. How is the change going to occur if the doctors themselves aren't held accountable and responsible for the actions they take? Like you are, you as a healthcare professional did not take an oath to be a mindless drone and follow guidelines without thinking, without critical thought.
00:27:54
Speaker
You took an oath to do no harm. And if your actions create harm, then that is an ethical violation. In my opinion, it's a violation of law as well. But yes, there needs to be more accountability. And we should embrace that. I want to be accountable for my actions. I want to be responsible. If I do harm, I am not placing the blame on anybody else but myself. If I fell into the corruption,
00:28:22
Speaker
And I became a mindless sheep without critical thinking. I can only accept that on my own shoulders is my willingness to do that. Maybe I was serving my own career, my own financial interests, my own needs, my own wants. So I do believe there needs to be accountability.
00:28:43
Speaker
I think you got me there honestly on that one, so thank you for sharing that. That's awesome. Which is a nice segue into the diagnostic system and the use of the DSM. Many people really do not understand that the DSM is not scientifically grounded.
00:29:04
Speaker
It's not based off of empirical research. In fact, it's ballooned to, I don't even know how many disorders now. I mean, I've seen from 350 to over 500. And I think like if you counted everything in there, it's over 500. Most of them are overlapping. There's overlapping diagnostic criteria. It's try to fit into the medical model.
00:29:28
Speaker
What is the medical model? The medical model is the classification of symptoms. And those symptoms as presented, reflect an underlying disease state, right? So let's say, you know, symptom is fever, sore throat, earache, right? There's a range of potential diseases, disease states that could be leading to that. And then doctors are
00:29:56
Speaker
are instructed to confirm through testing using the scientific method and maybe determine that you have a bacterial infection, an ear infection, and you treat it with an antibiotic. If I go into the hospital and my arm is broken or my arm has pain and swelling and I heard something crack, we'll confirm it with
00:30:21
Speaker
X ray. Right. And then we'll treat it as such. Now when you talk about the complexity of the, of the human being and the person comes in and now you say, I'm sad. I'm anxious.
00:30:36
Speaker
And I'm having difficulty sleeping and you use those as symptoms and you say, okay, there's an underlying disease state. We're going to label it major depressive disorder. That is a creation. We've created it into our collective consciousness. There's a label. Now there's a condition called major depressive disorder.
00:31:00
Speaker
And what is communicated to the general public is there is some underlying biological mechanism that influences the development of that disorder. Just like, you know, the pancreas has an ability to produce insulin, you know, would create the disease state of diabetes or the pain that I have in my elbow, the inflammation, there's an underlying fracture.
00:31:28
Speaker
But those things aren't able to be identified or discovered in mental health. As I mentioned before, when we're talking about health, there's the mind, there's the body, but there's also the spirit, there's the soul. And that is missing in modern science. There's the absence of the soul. And there's not really a distinguishing between the brain and the mind.
00:31:56
Speaker
If you would sit down and you would speak with the foremost expert in the world, in neuroscience, and you said, well, how much do we really understand about this organ in the brain? Scale of zero to 100%. 100%, we know everything about it. If that person's honest, they're going to say, maybe, I don't know, 20% to 30% knowledge. We're in our infancy stages. Does the brain create consciousness? We don't know.
00:32:26
Speaker
But in the field of psychiatry, it's the illusion of science. It's a pseudoscience. And the DSM is more political than it is scientific. It's more cultural than it is scientific. That's why at one point in time, homosexuality can be identified as a psychiatric disorder. And then at another time, it's not. Because it's cultural. It's not scientific.
00:32:56
Speaker
It's why you can have a psychiatric disorder in one country, get on a plane, go to another country, and you no longer meet the criteria, because the culture sees it different. So even if one hears voices, for example, or might see visions, the United States might look at it as a symptom of a psychiatric illness, like the brain is somehow not functioning. You might go to an indigenous culture,
00:33:24
Speaker
And they might have you work with tribal leaders because they'll see it as a gift and they'll connect you to nature and try to harness that gift.
00:33:35
Speaker
So the DSM is pseudoscientific nonsense, right? Accepting it into reality is a delusion, right? And that's the irony of this. If a psychiatrist is in a position to diagnose a mental illness disorder, then they would have to identify they too are experiencing that same mental illness because they were working under a delusional concept.
00:34:02
Speaker
It's very self-limiting, it's very reductionist, and it's very restrictive, and its major focus, its major purpose in our society is to sell drugs. The psychiatric establishment is aligned by the pharmaceutical companies.
00:34:17
Speaker
those who are on the DSM task force accept money from the pharmaceutical companies, the more diseases you can create, the more drugs you can sell. Listen, there's not enough people in the population who experience severe psychiatric functioning, that it really impairs their ability to connect with reality in order to have a lucrative psychiatric drug model.
00:34:45
Speaker
The pharmaceutical business knows that they needed to create more customers, not only create more customers, they had to create more people who identified as being mentally ill and then to be on the drugs for life.
00:35:01
Speaker
So it's my position, and I think the data suggests it, that the pharmaceutical industry and its alignment with the psychiatric medical establishment's sole purpose is to create more mental illness and more people who identify with mental illness to increase the sale of their drugs. Now, that's not to say every individual, every person who chooses psychiatry is aware of that and they're intentionally doing it. No, I'm just telling you they are in the illusion.
00:35:28
Speaker
We don't have to live in that illusion. And if we do live in the illusion, we will get sicker. And so if I believe that there's something inherently wrong with my brain because I feel sad, or I'm struggling right now, or I have this made up condition called ADHD, that's filtering through my entire experience.
00:35:47
Speaker
And now every interaction I have is through that lens that there's something within me that is broken. Is that going to make somebody heal or is that going to make someone feel worse? It's very clear. It's going to intensify and exacerbate your emotional struggles. You're now creating an idea around yourself of somebody who is sick. And the hope is that there's some quick fix. You can go on a drug that you know nothing about, that the doctors don't even really know anything about.
00:36:15
Speaker
And that experiment can impact your brain in a way that creates this stability or this focus or this improved mood. And I think the evidence is quite clear that it absolutely does not do that. In fact, I think it creates mass harm and side effects and the consequences of using those drugs, you know, can range from creating psychosis, worsening mood,
00:36:44
Speaker
more than doubling the risk of suicide on some drugs, weight gain, metabolic illness. And so there's, you're entering into the sick care system. Now the DSM is part of it. And, um, you know, you're using those labels and now you're restricting your idea of who the person is. And I was mentioning working with that woman earlier required time to understand who she is.
00:37:04
Speaker
But imagine if anyone saw her in a 15, 30 minute or 45 minute interview, which what has become our healthcare system. And they're just looking for symptoms. They're not understanding the person, they're just using symptoms.
00:37:18
Speaker
And then so they quickly are provided that label. They know nothing about the person in front of them. Why are they experiencing what they're feeling? There's no context. It doesn't even matter to them. And so they're part of this larger transhumanist movement here. Just take the drug. You know, this drug will make you feel better. Illusion. It's a lie. That's, it's not supported by science.
00:37:39
Speaker
But they'll use science. It's become a weapon because I'm the authority. And I say, what is science?
Cultural Narratives and Identity Crisis
00:37:47
Speaker
And again, it goes back to they are not. They are subjects in a system that's been widely corrupted.
00:37:54
Speaker
And so there is no path forward, even recognizing that DSM is something that's scientifically valid, reliable, or helpful. In fact, it's harmful. So it's best we don't talk about it anymore. And there are some things we need to resist. We need to take certain things out of our collective culture. And we can only do that through mass resistance. Amazing. Well put. Yeah. Yeah. Something really important you mentioned there too, was you were saying how most times, you know,
00:38:24
Speaker
people with these mental health, mental illnesses, right? Um, they're not actually, there's nothing that's really, it's not so severe that it's an, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not so severe that it's inhibiting their ability to relate to other individuals and to sort of move forward, especially if they're given the tools, you know, if they're treated as brethren and as someone without dysfunction per se,
00:38:53
Speaker
They're given the tools to move forward in their lives and better their lives in situations. One of the things that these psychiatric drugs do is inhibit our ability to relate to other individuals. We had Mr. Robert Whittaker on and he was talking about how antipsychotics make you pretty well numbed to having relationships with other people. They pretty well numb your ability to do that. And so I think that was really powerful as well.
00:39:21
Speaker
just the label itself can can place you in this idea like you were alluding to that, you know, you're, you're lesser than someone else because they don't have this certain diagnosis. And, you know, there's a couple different ways that we could talk about it, because there's a lot of people who seek diagnosis, they want to be diagnosed with this, then they over identify with their diagnosis, and they, you know, they self diagnose, and then they pay a lot of money to get a diagnosis. And
00:39:48
Speaker
We could probably talk about that too. I don't know if you want to comment on that before I keep going. Yeah. Well, there's two points I want to make first. There certainly are people that are really, really suffering and deserve help. And if you go to any major city in the United States, you might see a homeless population, for example, and you might clearly see that there are people who are, are detached from reality.
00:40:18
Speaker
Now we can call that we can label it anything we want. But I will also say that this does not apply to most of the population and it doesn't apply to probably everyone who's listening to this podcast right now.
00:40:34
Speaker
That's not what we're driving into the mental health system or into our healthcare systems to treat. But for those people who really are suffering, if we can accurately describe and identify what these are, they're not medicines, they're drugs, they're psychiatric drugs, and in certain emergency situations, they might create some tranquilizing effect and might stabilize someone for a very short period of time. They're not medicines to be on for life.
00:41:03
Speaker
But there's a lot of things that we would have to do in order for that person to be able to be stabilized and to heal. And that's going to range from safe housing and
00:41:18
Speaker
medical care, maybe connection to nature. You know, there's so many possible interventions to support someone who might be on the margins there, where they are really struggling. And we should be open to all aspects of being able to help those people.
00:41:37
Speaker
But I'll tell you again, there's a lot of those experiences are related to drug addiction, drug abuse, drug dependence. So the overwhelming amount of people who might present as psychotic or detached from reality might be doing so under very serious conditions. So they might have had a drug addiction or dependence and are in withdrawal, extremely sick and nutritionally deprived and not in safe housing conditions and those things.
00:42:05
Speaker
But let's face it, like what's in popular culture now and what people are turning to the mental health field for and psychiatric care for is this general large sense of fear and mood problems. And we're not solving those problems. We are drugging those problems and those drugs have consequences.
00:42:27
Speaker
And nobody is actually targeting what is actually leading someone to feel that way, to live that way. We're not highlighting that. So when you create a label, like a major depressive disorder, you're medicalizing it. You're saying you have a medical condition.
00:42:44
Speaker
And it stops further exploration, actually. When we talked about health to start off this podcast, why is the body responding in that way? We are being poisoned through pharmaceuticals, through chemicals, through pesticides. Our food is not as nutritious as it used to be because we've ruined the topsoil.
00:43:09
Speaker
It's very well known in the United States that there's, you know, forever chemicals and plastics and our water system and so forth. We are being mass poisoned. And then when we experience some of the reactions in our body and our mind to these poisons, they get labeled as psychiatric and then you're placed on another poison.
00:43:32
Speaker
Now the diagnosis part, right? And people searching it out. This is a mass identity crisis. It can go back to the spiritual emptiness that so many people feel, or the isolation that exists, or how we are being controlled by technology.
00:43:52
Speaker
You know, it is influencing about what it means to be happy and what it means to live well. And so we have this emptiness, this chronic emptiness that exists in our society coupled with fear that's purposely provoked. And people are seeking out and understanding. We all are trying to make sense of why we're here.
00:44:13
Speaker
And if you make sense of your emptiness or your struggle, as if there's something wrong with you, you have a disorder, you're disabled, and that's why you can't do things, and that's why you feel the way you do. There is some comfort in being part of the community, especially when you're in a Western culture that is trying to push certain ideology on the population that anyone who's really doing well or successful in life, it's because of their inherent inboard privilege.
00:44:40
Speaker
And, you know, only can you feel good about who you are is if you have some minority or disability status. Like, you know, people want to present that your struggles are due to oppression. And so there's, I see so many young people wanting to use a psychiatric label for belonging, but also for justification of where they believe they falling short in society. And it's a mass conditioning. So, you know, those are my two points to your original question.
00:45:10
Speaker
Yeah, amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.
Therapeutic Relationships in Healthcare
00:45:14
Speaker
And I think that, you know, you've been alluding to this throughout as well as, you know, in the, the system, the way it's formed now, you know, going to a doctor, a psychiatrist, you know, you get your 10, 15 minutes and there you go. You got slap a label on you and you get your prescription and you're off to the races. You know, there's no.
00:45:35
Speaker
therapeutic relationship, there's no true understanding of the root cause of the issue. And, you know, that's one of the things about the DSM five that was so problematic, especially, you know, I certainly think there are issues with all of the different additions, but
00:45:50
Speaker
you know, at least in the DSM three and four is you had that multi-axial system where you were able to look at, like you were supposed to look at the individual, not necessarily that psychiatry reflected this in their practice, but you know, this multi-axial system actually had it in so that you should explore the conditions of the individual. You should look at their history. You should look at the story of the individual, the narrative that they have. So, you know, that's something that's missing now for sure, I think.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's not, it also doesn't fit our healthcare model. And so I think any system or any diagnostic system that is as limiting as the DSM and is categorical in nature is going to be invalid. So everything that exists within the human experience is dimensional anyway, right? Like it has to be
00:46:40
Speaker
on a dimensional scale, not a categorical scale. So it can't be, well, you've achieved this, this, this, this symptom. All right. You hit five out of seven. You meet criteria for the diagnosis. Well, to what extent, to what degree? Under what conditions?
00:46:57
Speaker
Where is it abnormal versus normal? And so, I mean, you can take the entire DSM and break it down to really only a few conditions and put it on a dimensional scale, right? So even if you're talking about anorexia or an eating disorder, that's still driven by some person's relationship to their own fear and their own mind.
00:47:20
Speaker
So there's certainly fear and anxiety related conditions drive people to enter into problematic behaviors and it can impair their life. There are some people who are so fear ridden that they don't leave their house. There are some people who then respond to fear by restricting food.
00:47:39
Speaker
And again, that's also related to their own experience in their own mind. You know, somebody weighs 90 pounds and they say they're fat, when in reality they're about to die, that's a disconnection from reality, right? That disconnection or living in that illusion can create death. It's impaired, but there's a lot going on physically with that person that might lead them to see that, like pretty severe starvation, for example.
00:48:05
Speaker
There are people who experience intrusive, obsessive thoughts, and to neutralize those thoughts, they enter into behavior patterns. And there are people who experience psychotic symptoms or are disconnected from the reality in which we see it. And then there's substance abuse.
00:48:25
Speaker
If we can generally kind of look at things just like there's certain things that are influencing a person's functioning that would require them to get some professional support and help and really limit that, and make it more dimensional rather than categorical, then we can stay away from the harms that the system has created. Because now we're treating everything like its strep throat. And, you know, clearly that is not accurate. And it sent the wrong message to too many people.
00:48:54
Speaker
Not enough people take control of their mental health. They don't assume responsibility for health. They see it as something that is external to them, that's passive. And that's part of the conditioning from the lives of brain chemical imbalances and so forth. Which we know holds so much validity in the literature, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's sarcastic if you didn't catch that. But yeah, we've discussed that a little bit. But anyways,
00:49:22
Speaker
You know, I'm, I'm curious about the way forward. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that because I think you probably got lots to say on this too. Right. I do. Um, you know, I contemplate this quite frequently. Um, and the question is asked to me quite frequently.
00:49:41
Speaker
And a lot of people feel extremely hopeless, and they feel overwhelmed by the nature of the problem. So we have when you said it was systemic, well, how do we change such a system that has been built over decades that serves the interest of only a few people? And there's so much money tied up into it.
00:50:05
Speaker
and that's a legitimate problem like you go to medical school and then you do a residency in psychiatry and you choose to be a psychiatrist and you're going to treat people who you deem mentally ill. A conversation like this is quite threatening right because if the if the entire system becomes you know reconstructed in a new way
00:50:30
Speaker
Everything that you've learned is a detriment, right? You are, your knowledge base is a threat because you learn something that probably does more harm than good. You benefit in a system financially. It's how you take care of your family. And you don't serve necessarily any other purpose in a healthcare system and you're a physician. That's very threatening. That's very, very dangerous.
00:51:00
Speaker
So I think the way forward, though, is within us as the collective. Through education, through compassion, we have to resist ideas that are harmful. We can't be a part of it if there's a financial model around it and the economy flourishes off us being sick.
00:51:25
Speaker
And we continue to live in that illusion and are part of that economic system. And that system will continue to thrive. We need to starve the system.
00:51:36
Speaker
And so to do that, you cannot accept it. You have to resist it. And it's such a part of our, of our culture. The messages are so clear from preventative care of having to see your doctor all the time, taking care of your mental health. You go into school systems.
00:51:57
Speaker
social emotional learning, you'll go on the podcast, there'll be, you have an entire industry around people who've self identified with like ADHD. You know, people's entire well being and living is made around the sick care system. And so I want to, I want to flip that and I want everybody to be focusing on their collective health, creating that collective health outside of the consciousness of the sick care system.
Redefining Health Beyond Pharmaceuticals
00:52:27
Speaker
I don't have to live in your illusions. When you push drugs on me, and I'm a citizen, I'm a human being, but I'm a professional as well, when you push that idea on me that there is a drug that is going to improve my emotional health,
00:52:48
Speaker
that's an idea i don't have to accept that has to be proven and that's the value of of true actual science in the empirical method. It is on them to prove that that in that to prove that that improves humanity and actually improve these conditions it's not on me to jump on to a podcast and try to disprove it was never proven in the first place.
00:53:12
Speaker
So if Liev, you come in on this podcast and you tell me that you are an alien from a different galaxy, it's not my job to disprove that. You have to prove it to me. And I think we have to be grounded in evidence. Everyone's getting worse. Why would you continue to be part of a system that worsens our health and wellbeing? That doesn't make sense to me, right? I've abandoned going to medical doctors.
00:53:42
Speaker
I haven't abandoned taking care of my health. I've abandoned those ideas. And once I abandoned that idea that I am sick and I should be in fear all the time and I also have to check out whether I'm going to get cancer or this thing, it's not part of my consciousness.
00:53:59
Speaker
So I don't get sick. I take care of my health. I do everything, I think, to create a life worth living and of value. And from that to exercise, and that's meditation, and that's good food, and that's living a passionate life. And if I did get sick, I would want to find someone that would be in the Conscious Clinician Collective. It might be a functional medicine doctor that's going to be investigative, that is highly ethical, that's aware of the limitations of the science, how it's mass corrupted, who cares more about my health.
00:54:26
Speaker
And if there is some modern medicine, and we have to be careful with that word, because medicinal insinuates that we're actually restoring health, and we're correcting something that is of a disease state, and then it's well-established. And there's something that can improve my life, and I'm very open to it, and I think we all should be. But that's not what our system is. We can't ingest poisons. Go to a doctor and get another poison.
00:54:55
Speaker
and then say that's going to restore our health. I also think we're on the verge of a mass increase in consciousness and awareness where we can reconnect with our own ability to heal ourselves. I do believe the body is miraculously constructed, perfectly designed.
00:55:15
Speaker
And we have these abilities for our body to fight off toxins and diseases. And we've evolved to this stage in humanity, not because of these chemical compounds that are created in a factory. We've evolved because our body has evolved in this way.
00:55:34
Speaker
That doesn't deny some of the advancements, right? What is a poison often, you know, is based on what is the dose, right? I may need an antibiotic, but if I turn the antibiotics all the time, well, that has negative effects, negative consequences.
00:55:53
Speaker
Cardiology has made some great advancements in heart surgeries and some people's life has been extended due to those advancements. I'm not denying those things. We are good in emergency medicine. We can extend life.
00:56:09
Speaker
I'm more interested in quality of life. I'm more interested in feeling well mentally spiritually physically as long as I can and I'm also not afraid of death. So I think the more that we collectively fear our own death and we create this idea that we're broken that we're sick and we need the we need the doctor the worse we're going to be.
00:56:31
Speaker
And we have to highlight corruption where it exists, and there's plenty of it. We have to highlight where we've been poisoned, where that serves industries, where they're aligned with politicians, where there's economics that feed a system, and we have to collectively mass resist it, and only we can change. This goes back to your first statement. I think it was so...
00:56:53
Speaker
It was so wise to ask, open up the question talking about what is health and also to talk about taking care of your own room. We have to take responsibility for our own health because the sicker we are, the more dependent we are on those who are going to financially benefit from our illness. Let's step outside of it. Yeah, amazing. Well put, well put. Um, so I guess the last question I want to ask you is,
00:57:24
Speaker
Any advice for someone going into the mental health field? What advice would you give somebody? Whether it be psychotherapy, psychiatry, psychology, whatever, what's the advice that you'd give them?
Advice for Future Mental Health Professionals
00:57:36
Speaker
Okay. Um, get this question often as well. Uh, the educational system is not designed to produce critical thinkers.
00:57:48
Speaker
The educational system is designed to produce factory workers on the assembly line to serve the system. And I want you to think about it in depth. When you're writing a paper in graduate school, you're expected to cite other established science that supports your view.
00:58:13
Speaker
You're not expected to be critical of the science. You need to cite the science. It doesn't necessarily push innovation, critical analysis, and thinking. You read textbooks, you're given information from a teacher, and you're expected to regurgitate that information as if it's truth.
00:58:37
Speaker
The system is not set up for you to question it. In fact, if you do, you'll probably be labeled oppositional defiant. There'll be a lot of names that could be provided to you if you question the authority. So it's certainly designed to serve somebody who has deference to authority and is not a critical thinker. And we can see the consequences of doing that.
00:59:01
Speaker
But I would ask someone to go into the mental health field, and I know we're limited by the system. So you have to get a license. You get a license only by following their rules, by doing what they tell you to do, by telling you what is the evidence-based science. You have to follow their rules in order to get their license.
00:59:21
Speaker
But every step of the way, make sure that you are challenging the ideas they're trying to sell you because they're selling you ideas and they will influence you. Because when you step out, you are not serving them. You're not serving that institution. You're not serving that license. You're not serving that professor or that textbook or that citation. You're serving a human being. And so if you are not passionately
00:59:52
Speaker
interested in understanding the human experience. And you're not reading philosophy.
01:00:00
Speaker
If you are not having conversations with artists and creators, if you're not reading biblical text, if you're not questioning how we think, feel, behave, and act, if you don't have an established skill set to analyze scientific findings,
01:00:24
Speaker
then you are ill-equipped to deal with what is going to be brought in front of you in the health care system, in the mental health care system, because you're going to need all those. Or you're just going to do what 99% of people are doing. They're just doing what they're told.
01:00:43
Speaker
It is not that. Human beings, you'll never meet the same person twice. Ever. You're not going to. You can't categorize them. You can't limit them. You can't restrict them. You can attempt to and you can create that reality and many do, but that's to serve you. That's not to serve the person.
01:01:03
Speaker
So learn everything you can about what is healthy living. Be a critical thinker because even in the session with a person in front of you, they're going to have a story. They're going to be really tied to an illusion their mind is creating. And if you can't see it and you don't have the ability to challenge it.
01:01:20
Speaker
then you're going to live in that illusion too, right there with them. And the two of you together can create an alternative reality. In that reality, you can be mentally ill. In that reality, you can limit that person. Mental health professionals can be quite dangerous. There's iatrogenic harm just from doing therapy. If you're not aware, if you're not a critical thinker, if you're not of the highest ethical standard, you can create harm because you could be influencing a reality.
01:01:50
Speaker
Now, if you're very clearly aware of that, then you know you can serve the person in front of them by listening to their story, by understanding their story, by questioning how they live, by helping them restore their health and their wellbeing, that balance that we spoke about. You can be a very important mentor, coach, support system.
01:02:17
Speaker
If, you know, you are absolutely committed to lifelong learning and as well as you, you have the, you know, the courage to say what you don't know. If you have, if you're, if you're humble and you're compassionate, I think your presence can really give a person a sense of comfort and stability in their life. But if you're going to follow what you're learned,
01:02:42
Speaker
If you're just going to do your master's program or do your PhD program, and you know, treat in the manner in which they tell you, you're, you're not going to help a whole lot of people. In fact, you're really at risk of harming people. And that's the harsh reality. You know, as a clinical psychologist, I hate saying that. But if I'm honest with myself, I have to, I have to speak that truth.
01:03:06
Speaker
And so the institutions have failed us and we need courageous people to mass resist, to critically think. And, you know, I'm optimistic that that is, that's occurring now. The fact that you and I are having this conversation is evidence of it. Well, I think your answers speak to your own humility and integrity, which of course we really appreciate and
01:03:37
Speaker
Um, yeah, this has been an amazing conversation. Now, if you maybe want to share any final thoughts that you have, uh, on our discussion today, uh, I know we kind of did that a little bit here, but anything that you want to add, anything that you think you might've missed now would be the time.
Promoting Ethical Healthcare Practices
01:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, the final thing I want to do right now, because I have such a calling to do and I think it's so important, is this nonprofit that I've started. The Conscious Clinician Collective is our opportunity to connect. And
01:04:11
Speaker
If we're going to make changes, if you liked what I heard, what you heard today, if you agree with the things that I have said, I do ask that you please go to the CC collective.com or.org the CC collective.org read the declaration. The declaration is really important.
01:04:33
Speaker
Because we want to return to a high moral and ethical standard and we have to unite because there's such mass misinformation that exists like most people find information through Google searches and that's like so filtered. To serve this industry.
01:04:52
Speaker
And we need more critical thinkers, compassionate people who value informed consent. And that means that you make the decision. I will provide you the information as I know it. What are the risks? What are the costs? And what alternatives exist?
01:05:08
Speaker
That's a legal and ethical imperative that people don't get anymore. And that is something that we need to change. And so I do want people to really join me in this journey. Let us unite, let us connect, and we can build something great. And when you talk about providing information,
01:05:29
Speaker
Well, you can do that through multimedia options. People can go to a site and can read up on the criticism of what is major depressive disorder or what antidepressant drugs really are. Take away the marketing propaganda by the term antidepressant and let us explain to you what it actually is and what are the harms from that drug. And you make a decision.
01:05:54
Speaker
I'm not here to say you need to listen to everything that I say, that I am the word and you need to follow me and I am truth. I'm on the same journey you are. I'm seeking of truth. I work hard at it, I have my positions on it, but I really respect everyone's individual rights to choose, self-determinism.
01:06:17
Speaker
But if you are not getting accurate information, it's distorted to you, and you're accepting and trusting of the medical authority, then you're walking into potential harm, not because it's your choice. You're walking into harm because you gave that trust. We've let the system become this.
01:06:35
Speaker
So it is only us, it's up to us to change. So, you know, really would like people who are in any healthcare profession to join it, and then your information will be put into the collective, where there's a search engine, people know who are around you, they can, you can trust that you attest to that declaration. Or maybe just, you want to just donate, right? Like, I don't, something as small as the price of a cup of coffee.
01:07:04
Speaker
You know, if you can go to the website and contribute to this, because that's the only way that we can grow the technology to be able to build this. And we need to get as many people hearing this as possible. Very cool. Yeah, that's certainly something I'll be looking into that looks amazing. Yeah. And we'll put all the links down below too. So you have that, you have the podcast, how else can the listeners support you and your work and learn from you or this is fantastic project of yours, but yeah, anything else?
01:07:34
Speaker
Substack, radically genuine. On Substack, Dr. McPhillen, radically genuine. You can find me on there. It's free. I'm not charging. And I'm writing every week. And really, I sit down. I try to share alternative perspectives. It can range from just talking about informed consent and information people don't have, to just alternative ways about thinking about our lives and what we're going through right now at this pivotal moment.
01:08:03
Speaker
in history. Of course, you can download the Radically Genuine podcast. Find me on x at Dr. MacPhillen. You can find me on Instagram now at Radically Genuine. And you'll get something from me every single day. This is a mission of mine. This is a divine calling. You will know what I think, how I feel,
01:08:28
Speaker
Um, and hopefully I do a good job of trying to, um, you know, defend some of my arguments. And, uh, I just hope people are open-minded and willing to see things differently than what we've been conditioned to think. Amazing. Well, Dr. McFarlane, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom today and coming on. And I know your time is very valuable especially. So, uh, really thank you very much. Thank you. It was an honor.
01:08:56
Speaker
And I want to thank you all for listening. You should know that this is not medical advice or psychiatric advice or psychological advice is not advice in any way. This for your informational purposes only. Uh, but also remember that we're all sovereign, responsible beings, capable of thinking, criticizing and understanding absolutely anything. We, the people in the greater forces are together, self healers, self-governable self teachers, and so much more. Please reach out if you have any comments, criticisms, concerns, you know, where to find me on
Final Thoughts on Critical Thinking and Health
01:09:21
Speaker
Instagram. That's where I.
01:09:22
Speaker
answer you guys the best, but emails fine and YouTube comments are fine. Uh, I do get to them eventually. So, uh, I really appreciate all you checking out today. Um, if you found this informative, if you liked it, give us a like, share comment, help support us. That's all I ask. Uh, you know, sharing is really, really the best thing and you know what to do on the platform you listen to. So really appreciate that. And just remember there are two types of people in the world. Those believe they can, those believe they can't, and they are both correct. All right, guys. Thanks for listening.
01:09:53
Speaker
Take care.