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Meeting Our Past and Future Selves (part 1) (with special guest Scott Hendrickson)
108 Plays8 months ago
This week on a very special episode of "Friendless," host James Avramenko is joined by his oldest friend Scott Hendrickson to explore the multifaceted nature of friendship, the importance of authenticity, and the poignant reflections on personal growth.
James and Scott revisit the foundation of their long-standing friendship, from their shared experiences in the arts during middle school to the challenges they faced in a blue-collar, trades-driven educational system.
Scott opens up about his struggle to find a sense of community, delving into his desire to connect with various cultures and the impact of his actions on those relationships. Both reflect on the weight of intentions versus actions and the delicate balance of intent versus impact in the fabric of friendships. Central to their dialogue is the concept of friendship itself, highlighting qualities such as acceptance, support, and the shared journey of personal evolution.
The episode takes an emotional turn as they discuss the significance of reconnecting after years apart, the comedic misunderstandings surrounding identity, and the gravity of being true to oneself. They tackle complex ideas including the concept of being an "old soul," the pursuit of authenticity, and the bittersweet realization that life is a transient, shared experience of "walking each other home."
Listeners are invited to contemplate the role of emotional regulation, the perils of ideological focus, and the enduring bond of companionship through life's intricacies. This is just the first part of a two-part conversation that is sure to resonate deeply with anyone interested in the true meaning of friendship and self-discovery.
Prepare to connect with James's heartfelt storytelling, Scott's poignant reflections, and soul-stirring music that accompanies this deep exploration. Don't miss this compelling narrative on the power of human connections and the road to self-awareness.
Remember to follow "Friendless" for the concluding segment in "Scott Part 2," stay updated with our weekly Substack, and connect with us on TikTok and Instagram. Share your thoughts on the episode with a 5-star review and consider supporting the show by buying the hosts a coffee. Let's discover what it means to be truly friendless, together.
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Transcript
Introduction and Friendship Origins
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back to Friendless. I'm your host, James Avramenko. And this week I have an incredibly special guest on the show, Scott Hendrickson. Scott and I go further back than any other friend in my life. I have known him since junior high. And this interview is quite literally years in the making.
00:00:28
Speaker
We actually ended up talking for so long that I have had to split this interview into two parts. So this week is part one, and then next week is going to be the second half of the interview. In this first half, we talk about the origins of our friendships, how shame keeps us from being honest about and with ourselves, old souls versus new souls, what it means to reconnect and so much
Fears and Authenticity
00:00:52
Speaker
more. This was an incredible interview that I have just
00:00:58
Speaker
I've been both really excited and terrified to share. And before we dive in, I actually wanted to take a moment to kind of address something that we talk about. This episode as a whole has been one that I have been quite honestly terrified to share for a very long time. We talk really openly about a time in my life that I've only ever really danced around on the show.
00:01:22
Speaker
In my private life I've done what I can to address it and to alter my choices going forward but I've always been uncertain about how to talk about it in public or if I should talk about it at all. Scott of course came in and just kind of busted that wide open and as terrifying as it feels it also
00:01:43
Speaker
feels like a chance to finally kind of let the last scabs of that piece of my life heal. This all really centers around this idea of authenticity and shame.
Path to Self-Forgiveness
00:01:54
Speaker
When I was growing up, I was almost a pathological liar. My life was this mix of, you know, undiagnosed spectrum disorders, really chaotic and volatile family life, and then this deep-seated internal inadequacy that led me to believe that I needed to prove myself to be worthy of love.
00:02:13
Speaker
I've spent years since in therapy revisiting and unpacking the reasons behind this behavior. Going over it now in a way sort of feels kind of like redundant excuses, but I've made my own peace with this to a point, but there are definitely still moments where the shame really flares up.
00:02:35
Speaker
I was desperate for an identity, you know, something that would help me stand out, be seen, be validated. And so I created fictions so that I could be special, so I could be somebody. And in that process, I hurt myself and so many people that I cared about most.
00:02:55
Speaker
Now, we obviously go deeper into the story in the actual episode, but it's strange because things have happened with other people in my life recently where it almost feels like me talking about my past couldn't have been better timed. And, you know, those choices that people have made, they're not my stories to share. They're not my stories to tell. But I guess I want to take a moment
00:03:20
Speaker
to just say, you know, we can't hold others accountable for what they do. We can't make people understand us. All I can do is live my life the best that I can, and I can hope that people are curious enough to want to understand that. When shame takes over our thoughts, it keeps us silent, and then it keeps us stuck.
00:03:44
Speaker
The way I've learned to process through that shame is to speak about it, to speak about what has hurt you and how you have hurt. And in so many ways, I've found that speaking openly has been really the only way for me to move through these past choices.
00:04:04
Speaker
I've said in previous episodes that you know I don't understand why people lie but I've realized that that in itself is a lie. I understand completely why people lie. I don't appreciate it and these days I do my absolute damnedest to not do it but in my experience I completely understand why someone would lie.
00:04:24
Speaker
For me, it often comes out of a fear of abandonment. It's a fear of being seen as something unworthy, unlovable. We tell ourselves that we aren't enough. So we make up stories to compensate for that perceived lack. And I know the shame that I've felt for the lies that I've told, you know, when I was 15 years old, they still sting sometimes even today.
00:04:45
Speaker
But that shame is useless. Now, recognizing that you don't have to do anything, but if you want to do something kind for yourself to heal from past choices, then I really do encourage you to just try and forgive yourself and then do what you can to mend the ruptures that those past choices have caused.
00:05:04
Speaker
I forgive myself for the choices I've made. And I also understand that that is a choice only I can make. It doesn't come with an expectation that others would forgive me as well. If they do, that's wonderful. And if they don't, that's just as wonderful.
Life's Choices and Consequences
00:05:18
Speaker
Because what that means, likely, is that they respect themselves too much to allow someone who's hurt them back into their lives.
00:05:26
Speaker
I heard recently, and I really love this saying, sometimes the greatest act of love is to allow people to experience the full consequences of their actions. So if you're out there and you're listening and you're struggling with your own internal conflicts, I really hope that you can try your best to just soften on yourself.
00:05:43
Speaker
There are no actual mistakes in life. There are choices and then there's consequences to that. Nothing in life means anything beyond what you choose to learn from the choices that you made. I have learned the hard way what lying does to a life.
00:05:58
Speaker
And I've done everything in my power since to make different choices. I continue to make mistakes all the time and that's okay. That's what being human is. No one should expect perfection from others and least of all from themselves. That's what it always comes back to is this idea of unconditional love for yourself.
Setting the Stage for Scott
00:06:14
Speaker
You, you don't have to expect that from others. And in fact, I don't know if you can get it from others, but you can always get that unconditional love from yourself. I continue to work on giving that to myself and I really hope you will too.
00:06:25
Speaker
So with all that ominously but hopefully softly front loaded I hope you will listen to this interview with curiosity and patience for not only myself but for Scott and just all the concepts and the philosophies that we're trying to unpack as we reconcile choices that both of us have made throughout our lives.
Scott's Arrival and Identity Exploration
00:06:48
Speaker
As my therapist loves to always remind me it's good to do scary things so
00:06:52
Speaker
Here's my debut with Scott Hendrickson. I'm scared shitless. I hope you like it.
00:07:04
Speaker
This week on Friendless, I have my oldest friend. Obviously, I've known people longer, but in terms of someone who remains actively in my life, this person is the oldest connection I have, and it's a very, very long time coming to get him on the show, and I'm really, really excited. The one, the only, Scott Hendrickson,
00:07:33
Speaker
You know, I was actually, I was just thinking about, uh, I have no idea what your middle name is. I was going to try and like just make something up and then I bailed. I bailed real fast, but, uh, but how the fuck are you, man? Very good. Thanks for having me, James. It's really nice to be here doing this with you.
00:07:47
Speaker
It's it's you know, we have been talking about getting you on the podcast off and on for years in various states of our friendship and in various various various states of connection. But but I think that this is the the exact right time to do it for any number of reasons. But if only just because now is the time, you know.
00:08:07
Speaker
Now is definitely the time. You obviously watched Kids in the Hall back in the day. There's this classic. It's actually not a funny skit, but it's stuck with me for years. It's Bruce McCullough, and he's hired as some kind of roadkill assassin, and he shows up at a crime scene, and he's like, what time is it? He's like playing kind of a Batman guy. The cop's like, it's a quarter after six, and he's like, no.
00:08:35
Speaker
The time is now I've never been able to forget that That's where we are. We're we are now. Yeah. Yeah beard out. So Scott We have a lot of ground to cover. I'm not sure how much we're gonna get to you here But but let's start with a real simple question Who the hell are you?
00:09:00
Speaker
Very simple question. Thanks. Thanks for the softball to start. Who am I? Well, you know, I'm I'm 38 years old. I am. I guess I'm a.
00:09:17
Speaker
Bit of a rebel at heart who's just living in endless childhood into middle age. Continuing to try to learn who I am and figure out what my passions are and pursue them.
00:09:33
Speaker
You know, the who you are questions are like a really interesting question and my urge to like answer with my occupation, my age, some sort of list of factoids to, you know, help people associate me is so strong. Are you credible? You know, are you? Yeah. Yeah. So I like I want to do something.
00:09:54
Speaker
you know that that's real and authentic to me and and um you know i want to oh i'm an outlaw i'm a i'm a i want to describe something about the the outer touches of my character but i'm just a guy who woke up doing life for the first time sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night screaming and other times i'm like
00:10:16
Speaker
Wow, I'm on the journey of a lifetime. I mean, that's the impulse behind that question, right? Is, you know, it's not, you know, you meet somebody at a party and you're like, oh, you know, what do you do? Who gives a fuck? You know, like, like we're all just screaming into the void. We're just trying our best not to be unhoused too soon. You know, like, but the other thing you said, it always reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut used to always tell his kids. He used to always say, go gentle on me. I just got here myself.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. It's one of the things I always like to remind myself when things get tough. It's just like, this is your first time. This is your first time doing life. You're not so established. Some people think it's their manyth time doing life, right? Sure. In my philosophical worldview, I don't have reincarnation on my bingo card. No.
00:11:08
Speaker
People are like, I'm an old soul, I'm an old soul. I'm like, there is no way that I've done this before. I would be slightly better at it. You're either, is it, are you an old soul or were you just parentified too young? You know? Did you just lose the ability to have a childhood at an earlier age?
Cultural Misunderstandings
00:11:27
Speaker
Exactly.
00:11:28
Speaker
Like, I'm really sorry that your parents, like, you know, talked, you know, I don't want to say down to you, but like your parents failed you, I guess. You know, I think I think you only get to be an old soul if you have some sort of sense of grandeur about you. Yes. No one's ever like, well, I was.
00:11:48
Speaker
a peasant in this life, and then I was also a peasant in this life, and I lived as a serf in this life. People with old souls always come from some sort of royal divine lineage. They were Cleopatra. They're always working their way back up to the top.
00:12:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I. Oh my God. You just unlocked a memory of mine. I remember when I lived in Vancouver the first time you know 12 15 years ago whatever it was. Numbers aren't my strong suit you know. But I ran into this person. I was walking home when I lived on Broadway and I saw this person like way down the road.
00:12:25
Speaker
And there was something in me that was like, uh-oh, like don't talk to them. And the person I was with kind of like felt it. And I was like, let's just keep walking. Let's just keep going. And we got closer and closer and closer. And the person ahead of us stopped dead in their tracks and like locked eyes on me. And I was like, oh, fuck. Oh, no.
00:12:45
Speaker
And they came running up and they were like, I found you, there you are. And I was like, Jesus Christ, please, I don't have any money, I'm sorry. And they just wouldn't let it go. They were like, I've been looking for you my whole life. Don't you remember me? And they were just going off that we were twin flames in a different life and they've always been looking for me. I'm pretty- That's romantic. That's kinda nice.
00:13:12
Speaker
I'm pretty sure it was the mescaline, but they were really sweaty. But it really shook me because they were so earnest. They were so genuine about it. They didn't know anything about me, but they were like, your soul, the soul inside you. I did suspect they wanted to wear me.
00:13:39
Speaker
But it was very beautiful in that they were so sincere, but it was also very troubling in that I was like, if I am a reincarnated soul, which I'm with you, I don't think I am, but if I am, I am a very young soul. I don't have shit figured out, and whatever electricity is powering me just stumbled its way into consciousness very recently. Yeah, I feel you with that.
Facing Ancestry and Self-Change
00:14:06
Speaker
That whole idea of
00:14:09
Speaker
We want to give ourselves whatever leg up we can, I think. And so if you can anchor on to something that gives you a bit of presence in this world, that gives you one leg up.
00:14:40
Speaker
which is ironic given that I'm pushing a show that I host and I have a TikTok and I'm putting out writing and all these things. But it's not with the intention of being outwardly validated. These are just things I have to express. These are impulses I'm following. And if you like it, cool. If you don't, cool. There's no need coming out of it. And the deeper I get into that path and the more I focus on that for myself, the more it...
00:14:47
Speaker
take it if you've got it.
00:15:10
Speaker
it's that it's the double-edged sword of like I lean into it more and because I'm liking it so much I start kind of becoming a little bit of a proselytizer and I start being like you should do that too but it's like no cut that out it's just it's good for me doesn't matter if it's good for you you know but it's like it's like for instance like learning about codependence has ruined pop music for me you know because anytime I hear a song about like you made me this I love you it's like
00:15:34
Speaker
No, they didn't make you anything. They're just some asshole who dumped you. Fuck that person, you know? Your own inability to emotionally regulate has made you feel this way about this other person. Exactly. You will still die alone. Exactly. It's almost like people who say, like, the gym is my therapy. It's like, no, therapy's your therapy.
00:15:53
Speaker
The gym helps, but it's a distraction, you know? You making art isn't therapy. It's therapeutic, but it's not therapy. And clearly, you have something unresolved if you're writing a song about someone you haven't seen in years about how you made me this or you made me that. It's like, no, you made yourself that.
00:16:09
Speaker
Well, I think that's the big drawback to reincarnation is like one lifetime gives you enough therapy to last three or four. If I have to also solve all of my, you know, previous existence, childhood traumas and issues, I don't stand a chance. It's hard, you know, one life is enough. And I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean, I think it's important to like,
00:16:38
Speaker
that one precious life to appreciate that thing. Because it's beautiful enough, it's hard enough, it's challenging enough, it's sobering enough, it's destructive enough.
Philosophical Life Questions
00:16:49
Speaker
And I think that there's power in that, right? If you're too focused on maybe one
00:16:59
Speaker
ideological Outlook on life that this is all just a test this is all just a test for the next good life that comes after or You know on the flip side I am Healing from these previous Existences those lives were the tests that I failed and this is my final exam you know like either of those do a disservice to to the fact that
00:17:28
Speaker
This is enough. And I think that that relates really well to me because one of my big struggles is to know that I am enough. Yes. So like to to try to like offload the immediacy or the importance of this life and be like, oh, well, it's
00:17:49
Speaker
combination of things that I have no concept of that came before that came after and therefore that I can you know minimize the significance of my existence I think is
00:18:00
Speaker
It's not for me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and especially in the sense that it's like it minimizes and maximizes it. Right. Because it's like, you know, in so many ways, we are the continued experience of what came before us, you know, like, you know, our the very fact of our existence means that our ancestors have successfully reproduced since we crawled out of the slime, you know, like for whatever reason, our genes have followed that path. So we are on a certain thread line in that regard. But it also is like
00:18:30
Speaker
there's something I think there's something really beautiful and I agree with what you're saying about like the fleetingness and the the temporary nature of consciousness and the temporary nature of our existence right yeah what you've said is is something that you know is majorly impactful to me in my life is that idea of ancestry of lineage of the continuation of and for me you know it I think my big epiphany was
00:19:02
Speaker
when my father was dying of cancer. He got diagnosed with cancer and I'd like gone home many times to try to like care for him, give him smoothies, try to like help him you know think about meditating or do yoga or quit smoking or like any of these things that may help his cancer and he just
00:19:24
Speaker
He just wouldn't change, right? And what I learned when I was kind of staring at him on his deathbed and I was asking all of this was like, I'm actually seeing myself. I'm seeing myself in the past and in the future and I'm having a conversation with myself. And any of these desires that I have for change are for me to have in me, right? Like it really shook me to realize that time was
00:19:54
Speaker
folded on itself in that moment that I was my dying father and I was me at the same time and I was Him in the past and I would and he was me in the future and we were There was a unifying thing that was holding us together and it made me realize, you know, I
00:20:21
Speaker
Uh, I'm, I'm the one who's, who's asking me to change me right now. I'm having a conversation with myself and it was, it was a very profound moment in my life where it was like, and that's what makes me really agree with what you're saying is
00:20:37
Speaker
we are continuing on. We are improving some previous generation's iteration of existing. And we really are the byproduct of our ancestry. We're given that load to bear to see what we can transmute it into.
00:21:03
Speaker
Yeah, it just really, it fucking boggles my brain. You know, like, I always come back to the thing about, you know, Ram Dass always talks about, like, the idea that it's like, the concept of death is essentially going to sleep and never waking up again. And he's like,
00:21:24
Speaker
There's no reason to fear that because you've already done that because there was a day that you woke up having never fallen asleep before, you know? And so it's like it's such a strange—I understand why everybody's always pursuing these questions, right? And at the same time, too, it feels kind of useless in a way in that, like,
00:21:46
Speaker
There's no way to conceptualize what's before and there's no way to conceptualize what comes after. There's only what we can look at in the moment. And even that becomes transmutable and questionable. And then, you know, you get into gaslighting and you're not really sure what you experienced anyway.
Cultural Identity Struggles
00:22:02
Speaker
Well, you're your your your own best gas lighter, right? Oh, exactly. Yeah. Your emotions and your memories are so deceptive in what they are and how you think things actually happen. And then the story that you tell yourself about it and then change over time is like, you know, I think when you when you talk about Ram Dass and for me, the quote that like kind of really catches me with him
00:22:30
Speaker
is this we're all just walking each other home. That attitude I think makes a lot of sense to me. And when I think about that relationship with my father and I think about what I was trying to do for him, but by a mirror, it was offered to myself. And when I think about that idea of
00:22:51
Speaker
home of familiarity of this like yeah it's this dark scary place but when you connect with other people you know it can feel a little bit more familiar it can feel a little more safe and we can both go into the darkness together you know there's a really cute song by a band that that we both like that uh you know the lyric is i will follow you into the dark yeah i think that that's it's all darkness all the time you know
00:23:19
Speaker
We've got these tiny little torches we can illuminate just a little hint of our own humanity or the world at large at a time. And it's nice to be with people as you wander through the darkness because it's inevitably scary, you know, being alive and going through it the first time.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah. Fuck though. Yeah. Oh my God. When you think about like just the enormity of space, the enormity of just how much like I know it looks to us like it's black, you know, but it's like it's nothingness. It's a vacuum. It's like beyond black, you know, and that's a black. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That always just fucking terrifies me, you know, but
00:24:02
Speaker
That leads into a question I have for you. Speaking of memories and how we interact with memories depending on where we are in life. I always think about that. I've been reflecting on when you break up with someone and the memories are so fresh and they're so raw and they're so hard to look at. Then years pass and you look back and it's softer. But you don't have those same impulses involved.
00:24:30
Speaker
that weird time thing you know time softens everything and hardens everything um i'm really curious you know um i'm giving such an 80d
Authenticity in Friendship
00:24:40
Speaker
uh caveat to this i'm just very curious about it um and that's how i tell stories so um you are in a very unique position that we've known each other since junior high and um i'm really curious like on impulse if i was to ask like
00:24:57
Speaker
Either it's the memory of meeting or what is the first memory you think of when you think of our friendship like what comes to mind when you think of Scott and James You know, it's it's a really tough one actually and I was kind of like mulling it over and thinking about it because we've had so many births to this to this friendship and I really when I when I try to think about
00:25:24
Speaker
middle school and our relationship interactions. I mean, I was just terrified of you. So they were pleading. I was in that, you know, I was one whole year older than you, one whole grade above you. But we were in a similar track in life in terms of being involved in the theater and being artistic and being a little bit hooliganny. And I think that that
00:25:50
Speaker
You know, I remember those those like early moments and I think it was Miss Walker's, you know, room getting just a kind of connection about who you were. That's the first sort of memory I have. I can, you know, if I go really deep, I can remember the windows at the back of the room and sort of.
00:26:10
Speaker
You still have a mustache in my memory. It can't be possible because you were 13 years old at the time. Whispy. Real wispy. Price spelled a B-O. Very awkward time. But then I remember you coming to Bonas High School and us doing the Peter Pan play together. And that was a really impactful moment in my life. And it was...
00:26:39
Speaker
It was kind of one that had solidified you, myself and Lee Cookson as a trio that kind of got along, saw the world in an interesting way. We're interested in speaking about the world differently, particularly given the type of high school that we went to, which was a very, very blue collar, trades driven, you know, type of educational program. So to have like,
00:27:08
Speaker
softness and sensitive boys who wanted to like, you know, do poetry was the first boy to join dance class willingly ever in the history of the high school. You know, yeah. And I was in the musical theater program. You know, like these were these were bold steps for me to take.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah. So I remember that those moments as well, but that I think that one in particular, honestly, when I, when I think about all of the things that I remember, I think like you inadvertently taught me so much about my ignorance. Like, I mean, we have one of the, the like craziest stories as we iterate to the third version. Cause it's, it's like, almost like
00:27:57
Speaker
I kept disappearing through the warp tube and then I would see you another year later because I would.
00:28:05
Speaker
You know, and we were very similar, like, I think even in terms of like the women we liked and our romantic interests. And and I remember like, OK, I went into high school and then a year later you were in the same high school, which is fine, which is great. You know, it wasn't like I didn't have an issue with it. But then similarly, I left high school and went to university. And then the next year you'd showed up in university.
00:28:32
Speaker
And like, I don't know. I just, I feel like I have to tell this story because it is, um,
00:28:39
Speaker
It is amongst the most embarrassing stories of my whole existence.
Acceptance and Forgiveness
00:28:43
Speaker
Oh, buckle up, I love it. And it's just, you know, if I can describe again the kind of like sheltered upbringing that we had in a predominantly white Anglo-Saxon working class community where I wasn't exposed to other cultures, I wasn't exposed to other ways of thinking, other like
00:29:04
Speaker
ethnicities, other religions, anything. It was a very, very basic monoculture that we were operating from. And I didn't really know what Jewish people were. I mean, this sounds really dumb, but it's true. I just didn't have any exposure to other races, other religions, other ethnicities. So I didn't really get it. And then when I got to university,
00:29:34
Speaker
I started to meet Jewish people and I started to see this other culture and I didn't understand how to interact with other cultures and I didn't understand how to associate, but I thought they were all really cool. I thought all these people are so cool.
00:29:56
Speaker
And being someone who never had my own like in crowd, my own group was always a struggle. I can remember in high school, like I'm trying to be with the gangsters. I'm trying to be with the theater people. I got a skateboard. I'm trying to be with the skateboarders. I'm trying to be with the rock and roll kids. I have no sense of self. I have no sense of ingrained community culture that is like, I always know who I am because I'm from
00:30:26
Speaker
this group. And I remember, yeah, meeting all these Jewish people when we got to university and I like craved wanting to be a part of it, but I knew I wasn't. But I thought I had a friend who was Jewish who could like introduce me to them. Now, this wasn't like something that you had even lied about. This was like some
00:30:53
Speaker
offhand comment in the tech theater room in the 11th you were in the 11th grade I was in the 12th grade some comment was made that oh James is Jewish or Jimmy the Jew or I can't remember what it was in my mind but I just decided that I was gonna I was gonna pour that concrete and just make that a foundation of who I thought you were I think now I think James is Jewish
00:31:16
Speaker
And so when I meet all these Jewish people, I'm excited because it's like, oh, I know someone who's Jewish and I can't wait.
00:31:25
Speaker
for you guys to be reunited as a family. And I can't wait to introduce you. You showed up at school, and I'm like, my friend James is Jewish, because I wanted to be connected to this community through you. And it turns out. And my heart sank. You broke my heart. Because the other side of the story is, it had been this running joke with this group of friends that just kind of got out of hand.
00:31:55
Speaker
I was autistic and I did it while I still am. And it had been this like in joke with this group of kids who had like been kind of dancing up on the line of some white supremacy stuff. They were all getting into punk music and then they were getting into trouble for like drawing swastikas and shit. This wasn't like a cute thing either. This stems from not understanding culture and growing up with kind of a race
00:32:23
Speaker
racist sort of community where anti-Semitism and white supremacy was real. It was real in our neighborhood. Oh, pervasive, yeah. And one of them made this crack of like, oh, we can't be anti-Semitic because James is Jewish. And I was just like,
00:32:41
Speaker
yeah totally you know but then it like caught on because like you say it was like it was the same as like when I came out as bisexual in high school and the way I came out was that I had just like collect the option in Nexopia because I didn't know that you could be bisexual but that summer I had like made out with girls and made out with boys and I was like oh
00:33:08
Speaker
this rules I like all of this but I didn't even know there was a fucking word for it you know and then I clicked the I saw it on Nexopia there was an option for I was like oh my god this is incredible not realizing that I was outing myself and also that I was gonna show up at school day one and everybody's gonna be like you know dropping some
00:33:28
Speaker
hard hard slurs you know and so it was like I didn't even realize the uniqueness of it because I was just sort of running with it but then it was really uncomfortable and I didn't you know you know the story had gotten a way away from me way quicker you know and then but and
00:33:47
Speaker
For me, too, it was an identity. It was because I was in the exact same boat where I was looking for any sense of self. I was looking for any ability to stand out. I was the third child. I was desperate for validation. I had no idea how to love myself. And so it was like, oh, OK, I guess this is my identity.
00:34:06
Speaker
And when I got to university, I was like, thank God, I can leave that all behind because it's embarrassing and it's not true. And then day one, Scott Hendrickson shows up. I was like, fuck, you know. But then, you know, I lean into it and you know, this is like one of the biggest fucking embarrassments of my entire life. Yeah, that I cost for you. That I like inadvertently like I think about.
00:34:35
Speaker
Anticipated and I and I escalated it, you know, everyone needs to take their own responsibility and everything too There there was an opportunity maybe for you to stop it. Of course, you know, it like let's not get into complete victim here But at the at to the to the same respect I know how fucking intimidating it was to sit in that room for the first time in university and have all of these people around you and I
00:35:00
Speaker
And like, you're just trying, you want to fit in, you know, like you want to, you want to be a part of this group because you're, you're not. You start on the outside of the circle. You got to introduce yourself for the first time ever. And, you know, I just, I just feel so bad about, about that moment that was not a moment. It was.
00:35:22
Speaker
five years of my life after that. I've lost friends over it, having to finally come clean. Friendships have completely changed because of it, and understandably so, because it's like I was lying to people for five years, you know, out of shame. And it's something that I'd love to talk with you about as authenticity, as just, you know, when we're talking about friendship and we're talking about what it means to be a friend.
00:35:52
Speaker
It's just a real low point in my life to steal someone's authenticity. I didn't know and I didn't mean to. Having moments like that in your life I think are so important to hang on to.
00:36:13
Speaker
When some future occasion comes up, when you think you know something, you can be a little bit more humble. It's not your story. You could be a little bit more humble about what you do and do not know.
Personal Transformations
00:36:24
Speaker
And you really don't fucking know anything. It's really important to remember how little you know
00:36:31
Speaker
even about yourself, let alone other people. Well, I mean, I'll say this, like, I fundamentally, from the bottom of my heart, forgive you, and I also fundamentally, from the bottom of my heart, forgive myself, you know? Like, because it's like, it's embarrassing. It's one of my great embarrassments. And I, at the same time, too, I don't hold you accountable for it, you know? Like, I hold myself accountable for it because I participated in it. I lied to people. I, you know, I deceived people in an effort to be something that I wasn't.
00:37:00
Speaker
The real irony of it all is that years later I went and I did a bunch of research about my family background and it's almost certain that my family that fled Ukraine were Nazis.
00:37:19
Speaker
There's like I have no idea because they're all dead now, but like there's like a long history of Ukrainians from that time period who like Came over and had been you know, they were Jewish but they got on the boats and we're like So the irony is that I like potentially lied myself into the truth, you know, but but you know, but
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's fucked up. It's fucked up. And thanks for bringing that up. I hate talking about that. I hate talking about it, too, but I just feel like, you know, as someone who because it's an absolute embarrassment for me, but I think it's really important to reflect on because being that I don't get to.
00:38:00
Speaker
talk about what an idiot I was as a 14-year-old, 18-year-old, 22-year-old, 28-year-old, very often. I'm currently, I'm often stuck on regular stupid things I do in the present day. It's just, I just, I think it's
00:38:21
Speaker
important when I reflect on my growth and what stupid shit that I thought that I knew. I think a lot about just growing up with bad ideas in my head.
00:38:36
Speaker
looking at us now as friends and thinking about what kind of ideas, what philosophies, what our hearts look like today. It's inspiring in its own way just to know that there are people that we knew that are still those people today. Yes, yeah.
00:39:05
Speaker
And I'm thankful that I'm not one of them. I'm thankful that I was able to learn and grow and recognize mistakes about the way my brain worked, the way I thought about other people. Because when we're talking about friendship, it's how you perceive other people, right? It's about how you relate to everyone in a social environment, and I had some really
00:39:29
Speaker
Tom ideas about people and preconceptions about people and who was who was nice and who was not nice and and you know it took me a while to
00:39:44
Speaker
become a real humanist, become somebody who could really just recognize everyone as an individual. Yeah. Well, and what's so funny is that, you know, from my perspective, you know, growing up with you, like, I remember we talked about this years ago. I was always terrified of you, you know, like, like.
00:40:06
Speaker
Because you were always, you know, from my perspective, you were always that one year ahead. You were always a little bit ahead of me and you were always, you know, from from my, you know, estimation is like you were the coolest person alive. And I remember I remember you once kind of getting mad at me because you thought I was like sort of like just sort of like copying you every time we were like going through stuff. And it was so hard for me to explain that it was like
00:40:32
Speaker
I was inspired but I was trying to just like follow my own path it just always kept on shaking out that we were just we were on the same path you were just a little ways ahead of me you know and and and I remember when you when you told me that it really opened my eyes to like it really helped reframe like where what I perceived as like sometimes hostility was coming from you know that it it wasn't
00:41:00
Speaker
actually directed at me you know it was just i was sort of like the the totem for it you know um and in the same regard on the flip side that it was like it really humanized you in a way in that i was like oh like this isn't somebody who i need to like idolize this is just somebody who i can respect and this is someone who i can learn from that i don't have to like pedestal but i can instead like
00:41:26
Speaker
Hold space with you know and and simply just be a friend with because we clearly have a lot in common We clearly have a lot of things that you know Interest us and we're clearly being pulled in the same direction You know so so what if we both just got our heads out of our asses and just we're friends well, and that's that's an interesting point right is is that you Here I am
00:41:54
Speaker
moving away, trying to find my tribe, my people that I can connect with, and there's someone who's going down a similar path as you, and you're like, hey, fuck off. It's like your older brother is pissed that you keep mimicking him all the time, but that's just the nature of someone who's a little bit older, who you see things that you're interested in, or you wanna,
00:42:22
Speaker
You know, it did get to the point where you were dating my ex-girlfriends in university and, uh... Uh, girlfriend, uh... Right, I didn't have that, Betty. I didn't have that, Betty. And I can't recall what the situation shifts were at high school. I wanted, like, two dates with one other one, but what I found out that you guys had been... You also... Ah, sorry, we don't need to get into this. I'm getting defensive. I'm getting triggered. But I think what the real... I didn't know you had dated either, though, when I started dating them. Okay, let's just say that.
00:42:49
Speaker
I don't think that that's what matters. I think the point is that it's meaningful to have people who see and appreciate the same parts of the world that you do.
Evolving Personality and Truth
00:43:04
Speaker
We're conditioned, I'd like to think we are conditioned towards a competitive nature that is not inherent.
00:43:18
Speaker
I, when I'm my good self, I don't believe in a scarcity model. I really believe that there's so much abundance out there and, and that there's room for everyone. And it's only when I am in my weaker spots that I think there's not enough to go around and therefore, you know, get off my tail and this is my lane and you know, but that's a, a limiting way of thinking, you know, what, what the truth is, is.
00:43:47
Speaker
When you and I established our university friendship, it led us through really beautiful creative expression. You know, like we got to make a bunch of wonderful art together. We got to pursue and watch each other pursue art and watch each other kind of learn about love and
00:44:12
Speaker
We got to live together and like, that's really, once you get over all the humps of like, and time helps for things like age, right? Like one year seems like a lot at 13, 14, but is almost insignificant by the time you hit 20, right? That one year is not enough anymore to even make any foundational difference. But when I think about our friendship,
00:44:40
Speaker
We were always making art together. And I think that's very, very cool. You're my longest friend. I have not had a lot of friends that I have been able to consistently keep. I'm not very easy to be friends with.
00:44:55
Speaker
me neither door and so to have a friend that you know understands me that challenges me that we were we pushed each other to do art together I think is is really special and I think particularly when you look at some of the you know shit we put each other through or some of the challenges that we had
00:45:25
Speaker
It's just, it's a nice trajectory. You know, when I think about like all of the times that something has maybe challenged our friendship and it's always been stronger than we thought it was, you know? Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I really do.
00:45:46
Speaker
Yeah, there's been times, you know, we'll probably get into this a little bit more with some of the other questions, but but we can tap into it right now a little bit in that, like, there's been times where, you know, we haven't spoken for years at time, you know, at certain points. And there's always been this really deep sadness within me whenever those happen, you know.
00:46:09
Speaker
because I don't have a lot of long friends. I don't really have any other friends from that period of my life. And so in those times, there's always been just this lingering pain, you know, of losing that last connection, you know, and whenever it gets rebuilt,
00:46:32
Speaker
Also because almost every time that's happened it's it's it's always been a distance thing that that's been the actual instigator you know which causes a misunderstanding which causes a break you know and once we get together then it's like oh yeah there's my friend you know like like so often it's sort of like
00:46:52
Speaker
I wouldn't say erases it, but it simplifies things, you know, and it eases the pressures of like, when you're alone and I'm alone and I'm two provinces away and we're not able to talk the way we are right now, you know, then it escalates pressure, right? Whereas if we're together, there's that, you know. It's an interesting way that you're putting, I actually see it quite differently. I think what really for us
00:47:22
Speaker
became the challenge was, and this is the way that I remember it, is I remember myself being a very harsh and sarcastic person, right? Oh yeah. And in a
00:47:43
Speaker
in a way I was okay with. This is gonna challenge you. This is how I show my love. I'm willing to take it as well. But I never wanted to give that. That's not how I give love, right? I mean, and we can talk about the love languages at some point. And I think there was an earlier day when
00:48:09
Speaker
We were all very comfortable with the gloves being off. You know, I think about when you, myself, Jesse, and Jay all lived in a house together. And that time was like, and the time just before that, even too, was really like, anything goes, because we're like,
00:48:35
Speaker
We don't have any responsibility. We maybe got a summer job or something, but we don't have any of the burden of adult life. We're making art. We're testing boundaries. We're pushing buttons. It was all fine and good.
00:48:56
Speaker
You know, I carried that on I'll just take it like a quick side street here to like emphasize just what a jerk I was is that like
00:49:09
Speaker
When my brother moved to university and I moved to Victoria to go to university and everyone met him and they were like, Oh God, it's like Scott, but he's nice. You know, like, like everyone's favorite Hedrick. So what a nice guy. He's like, he's humble. He's quiet. He's, he's like thankful for things. And then you've got me just like a fucking piss missile over just like,
00:49:36
Speaker
pure chaos and abandon and like loving, but reckless, very reckless. And so anyway, just kind of talk, just trying to like frame my personality and why it was hard to love me is that I was, I never, to this day though, really to this day, like if you've got an opinion that I don't agree with,
00:50:03
Speaker
you'll know you will know and I won't be kind about it either I will like try to get prickly over it in a way that like it's enjoyable for me because I like want to stir up debate I love debate I love to like
00:50:19
Speaker
Because I want to explore, I want to like, why? Why do you feel that? Tell me more about that. Let's dig deeper, because I still don't believe you, or I still don't understand it, or I want to change your perspective, or whatever. That drives, motivates me as a person, and that can be really challenging when you're looking for a place to emotionally regulate. Or just be validated, right? And be validated and be chill with your best friend.
00:50:47
Speaker
constantly invalidates all of your thoughts, opinions and ideas. Because there's a time and a place for devil's advocate. And you know, I talk about this a lot in my classes that I teach where like devil's advocate has really gotten a bad rap because it's the intention isn't to be argumentative. The intention is to be curious, you know, and it's to ask. Like you say, it's to ask like, well, why? Let's get deeper. Let's dig into it. You know, it's not to be combative. And that's that's why it's been weaponized and misappropriated is that
00:51:15
Speaker
you know you've got these like right-wing shitheads who are playing devil's advocate just asking questions you know when it's like you're not curious you're just being a dickhead you know like you're just fighting for the sake of fighting because that's you know regulating for your dysregulated system is to be in chaos well you know and I would say on the flip side to that you have the I will not be questioned yes on the other side where it's like if you
00:51:39
Speaker
If you ask me why I feel how I feel, you have invalidated my feelings right from the beginning. If I even have to try to describe what I'm feeling to you, you're gaslighting me. You are taking away my feelings, which are more important
00:51:56
Speaker
Then the reality that they came from then the history that brought them up and this is like to me it's it's a much bigger issue than the I'm just gonna be a dick over here on the right because like That's great easy mirror work like that's free mirror work if somebody comes into your comments section and is like devil's advocate and says some dick thing and it triggers you and
00:52:23
Speaker
That's like free therapy.
Defining Friendship and Part Two Teaser
00:52:24
Speaker
That's like, yeah, that's like a bonus, right? It's like, okay, why did that bother me? Oh, I guess I have this thing to work on. And then when that person's message in the comment doesn't bother you, then you're like, okay, well, I guess I'm, I'm stable in this, in this realm, you know? So whereas on the flip side that like, if you challenge
00:52:48
Speaker
any of my thoughts or feelings, you're actually challenging my whole existence. I think that that's where people can appear to be good friends, but actually make your life worse.
00:53:06
Speaker
that is such a beautiful encapsulation that's been one of my points of real deep frustration especially in the last you know six six or so months is that like people will say one thing and then do something completely different and and when you
00:53:21
Speaker
ask them about it suddenly you're now the target you know and suddenly you're the problem you know and so people can like people can can present themselves and project themselves as like super open-minded and critical thinking and so open and then behind closed doors they're just the most shut off dickheads who are just like outright like fucking your life up you know and and yeah i've grown very very leery of of people who
00:53:48
Speaker
tell the world what they are you know and who who say oh I'm I'm a this I'm a that I'm like well prove it you know like because your actions are always gonna speak so much louder than your words right that's true I think I think there's an interesting thing to be said about intention you know and I think again this is a place where
00:54:17
Speaker
If you judged me solely on my actions, it's okay. It's like 55, 45, 60, 40, like, don't put me in jail. But like, I think that there is something to be said about who you're trying to be as well, right?
00:54:44
Speaker
That counts for something. It does count for something. Now, intentions can ruin your life and the lives of people around you because they can be really, really hurtful when you perpetually say something and then do something else. But holding space in your heart for your best self, for when
00:55:08
Speaker
you wake up that day with enough strength and you've got some good intentions that you can act on, that's pretty good, right? There's something that counts for that as well. I don't think it's quite as black and white as like intent versus impact. I know that's a big conversation that's happened and I had that really weaponized against me recently with my most recent acts where it was very often like
00:55:30
Speaker
it was always about the impact on them, not about my intention. It always, you know? And that was a way for them to control the narrative about who I was, because it never mattered what I was trying to do. It mattered what they felt. The problem was that they had already decided what the impact was gonna be before anything had ever happened, you know? And so, like, it's not binary. It's not black and white. There's a whole point of my dialectic behavioral therapy. It's ands, you know? It's not buts, right?
00:56:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think actions are really important when you think about, okay, well, what makes a good friend? It's obviously in how they show up and how they come across in action. But that doesn't even have to be quite so concrete, right?
00:56:27
Speaker
the way that your friend shows up could be just to give you space to be yourself, right? It doesn't even have to be an action. It can be a, um, it can just be sort of a pillar. It can be something that's more static and allowing, you know, it's, it's like, for me, I'm not looking for you to like,
00:56:53
Speaker
do something for me, but I'm looking for you to be cool with me being myself and allowing that to happen. And I think that that's, you know, that's what's really important when it comes to friendship is finding people that make you feel okay being yourself. Right. I mean, that leads me right into the, you know, the big heart question of the show. You know, we've been talking for almost an hour now, so why don't we get to the core questions?
00:57:23
Speaker
That seems surprising to me that it's already been an hour. I know, I know. That's that's how our conversations always go. Yeah. Yeah. That really is the hard question. And I mean, you have kind of already answered it in a way, but the real central exploration is what it means to be a friend and how, you know, how how do we show up within that? And so framing that in the simplest context possible for you, what does it mean to be a friend?
00:57:53
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, and I did think about this beforehand is I tried to reflect upon.
00:58:03
Speaker
who I consider good friends and why. What did someone do to actually make me be like, oh yeah, this person's an ace. And they are the people who accept me for who I am in the moment, who are not conditional in their love in terms of you have to be at this level for me to be okay and with you.
00:58:28
Speaker
And I'll admit there are limitations to that. There are moments when the best thing you can do for a friend who's beyond help is to take space from them so that you have a chance to be their friend again later, you know, so that it doesn't all go away. But... I mean, case in point. Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I think we've always left ourselves room to recover, but when it comes to what is a friend, what I imagine is, okay,
00:59:00
Speaker
You have a material fabric of existence, you know, how you weave your life together with objects in order to collect money and have a place to sleep and whatever. But that is like a scaffold. It's not real life, right? The social fabric, how you relate
00:59:23
Speaker
to the world around you, to the people around you, all of the, the soft connections, not, not things that you can literally like really knock on or, you know, they're, they're the indescribable parts of, of life. That's all of life, right? Is, is all of the things that you are always want for description of. So,
00:59:50
Speaker
how you relate to your community, how you feel inside when you're with those people is kind of how you can detect what a true friend is or what friendship really means. And for me, it's like my best friends are people who let me be myself, who care for me, challenge me, worry about me,
01:00:20
Speaker
When they have capacity and, and, and, you know, that, that matters, but it's not as important. I don't think, because again, like I was saying at the beginning of our conversation, you can't change anyone, but yourself anyway. So I'm not counting on my friends to.
01:00:41
Speaker
make me better necessarily, but if I can emotionally regulate around them, if I can lower my anxiety, if I can feel authentic, if I can be in flow and in the moment, that is going to empower me for positive change. And I think that that's what I'm looking for in my friend group. And there's a lot of
01:01:11
Speaker
shit out there on the internet right now that's like look at your five friends that's your future surround yourself around the people who are going to make you your best and like that is classic capitalism like we need to monetize our friendships in order to make us have the best
01:01:30
Speaker
Successful outcome optimized. Yeah like that like and I and while I agree that If you hang out with six coke heads for long enough, you're probably gonna be doing coke Like like just a guess, you know, and if you hang out with six, you know
01:01:50
Speaker
Writers for long enough you might show up at the coffee shop with a little poem folded in your pocket Like it does it does have an influence 100% and so I think you need to surround yourself around people who you can express yourself You can feel like unbridled in yourself a set sense of self-expression I think that's really key for finding your friends for finding your community but what I think is important is that
01:02:18
Speaker
that you need to look at what, what really makes you wake up with a smile on your face. It's not about surrounding yourself with successful people. It's, it's about finding a way to relieve the anxiety of being alive. You know, there's a, this is a very,
01:02:48
Speaker
primitive thing about huddling together for warmth, for comfort, for safety, for shared responsibility, for ease. I think you gotta go all the way back there and just find those people. I think that's what friendship, that's where friendship can really save your life.
01:03:20
Speaker
And that's it for part one. Thank you so much to Scott for coming on the show. I can't wait to share part two with you next week where we're going to get even deeper into the muck and grime and just glorious emotions of what it means to be a friend and how we can continue to support each other. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end.
01:03:42
Speaker
If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to give it a five-star review anywhere you listened. It helps me out so much and it is completely free. If you'd like to support the show more, why not think about buying me a coffee or signing up for the sub-stack. You're gonna get weekly updates of poetry, fun distractions for the week, and a curated playlist for the month.
01:04:03
Speaker
I am expanding the service to a membership based subscription model within the next month or two. I've hired a producer. We're creating a new content plan and I am so frigging excited to launch. But for now, we're just kind of building awareness, building excitement. So please keep your eyes peeled for that. Announcements will be coming down the pipeline soon.
01:04:26
Speaker
But that's it for me this week, so I'm just gonna wrap this up here. Thank you so much one more time. I can't wait to share part two next week, and I hope you will join me for that. But I'm not gonna worry about that right now, and neither should you, because that is then and this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you, and I hope you stay soft on yourself. Fun and safety, sweeties.
01:04:59
Speaker
. .
01:05:33
Speaker
you