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How to Internalize Validation with Vaneet Mehta
1.8k Plays3 years ago
Follow Vaneet on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nintendomad888
Follow Vaneet on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nintendomad888/
Ever scoffed at the idea of telling yourself you look hot in the mirror? What if it actually works? We chatted with Bi+ activist and soon-to-be-author Vaneet Mehta about how to accept external validation and then repeat it and internalize it until it becomes a closed loop of confidence.
Like many Bi+ people, Vaneet struggled for years to identify and accept his bisexuality, and on top of that struggled within the strict confines of masculinity in the predominantly Indian/South-Asian community of Southall, West London. We talked about how Vaneet gained confidence in his identity and came out in that environment, how it affected his mental health (TRIGGER WARNING: talk of suicide and suicidal ideation), finding a queer community with common interests outside of queerness to "bridge the gap" (like "Gaymers"), the book he's writing on bisexual men, why he created the hashtag #BisexualMenExist, and the journey from self-discovery to paying it forward by helping others.
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham (formerly IFP)
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Transcript
Introduction of the podcast and guest
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Rav, and I'm here with another social media friend who I've met through this bye community on Twitter and Instagram, or Paths Keep Crossing, and I'm very excited to speak to him. Welcome to Two Bye Guys, Vanit Mehta. Hello. Hi, everyone. How are you?
00:00:33
Speaker
They say they're great, I can speak for them. So Vinit is an Indian bisexual writer and activist born and raised in Southall, West London. He is a software engineer and programmer, so we can for once talk about STEM and bisexuality
Vanit's YouTube channel and hashtag creation
00:00:50
Speaker
maybe.
00:00:50
Speaker
His YouTube channel with Lois Shearing is called The M. Bi Sedors and has a lot of great bi content and of course is a bi pun as is mandatory with the bisexual YouTube page or podcast. He also volunteers with Middlesex Pride. He is writing a book about bisexual men.
00:01:12
Speaker
as am I. We'll talk about that. And he created the hashtag BisexualMenExist. So hello again. Welcome. Great to have you, Vinnie. Great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Identity and upbringing in West London
00:01:23
Speaker
So first of all, I know I did a little intro, but I want to hear from you. How do you identify what parts of your identity are important to you and what pronouns do you use, even though I already said all that?
00:01:36
Speaker
Of course, yeah, I mean, yeah, so my friends are here, I'm an Indian bisexualist, I identify, you know, I'm of Indian heritage, but I was born and raised in sample, which is in West London. But that's also a really important thing to say. A lot of people go, Oh, yeah, London, or whatever.
00:01:52
Speaker
But I always specifically mention Southall because it's where I spent 21 years of my life, and it's a very South Asian area. So it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, I grew up in London. I grew up in the West. I grew up in the UK. But also, I was so entrenched in South Asian culture because everyone in my school was South Asian, Indian, Hindu people, Sikh, Muslim. That was what I grew up around.
00:02:20
Speaker
and so it's a really sort of like a microcosm really like you go to Savel and you see a lot of people so there's some people who don't even speak English because everyone just speaks Punjambi or Hindi or Gujarati or so it's a really interesting place.
Balancing career and activism
00:02:36
Speaker
Software engineer is something that's really important to me
00:02:39
Speaker
That is like my day job, but is also one of my big passions. And also I quite like the separation between that and sort of everything else I do. I feel like when you do activism as a day job, it's incredibly rewarding, but also incredibly emotionally taxing. So I kind of like that little separation there. And then yeah, right being is important to me, volunteering is important to me.
00:03:07
Speaker
just working within the LGBTQ plus community just means a lot because it's my way of giving back to a community that helped me. So yeah. And then Twitter and the hashtag like, it started for me as like a place to just scream into the abyss where I had like 10 followers and now I have like five and a half thousand and it's the abyss is suddenly very loud and I don't know what to do with that.
00:03:35
Speaker
Yes, indeed. And hopefully more soon. I know what you mean about keeping your day job and this world separate because it is like this can consume your time. I know that. Yeah, it can. Really can. Because there's so much work to do. But we also have other work that we like to do and need to do to make money and stuff.
00:03:56
Speaker
That's the other part, it's like to make money. I was once being put forward for a speaking gig, but they were like, oh yeah, the person higher up was like, we want someone who does this as their main job. And I was like, can you imagine sustaining yourself? Just think about that for a hot second, like sustaining yourself on just doing speaking gigs. Imagine that world. I can't, not for me.
00:04:20
Speaker
Cool. Okay. Well, we'll get back to a lot of the stuff you talked about a little bit later. Let's start with your bisexual journey. How and when did you realize you were bisexual? What was the process of coming to terms with it for yourself like? And then when did you start coming out?
00:04:39
Speaker
I
Realizations about bisexuality
00:04:40
Speaker
mean, this is something that I've put to paper a few times, but basically the summary of it is I knew I was not straight at 11. And I specifically say not straight because bisexual wasn't a word that existed in my mind. I didn't know that was a word.
00:04:58
Speaker
I didn't know that was a thing I could be. But I had feelings at that part where when I look back and even in that moment I was like this doesn't feel like what I should be quote-unquote because it wasn't what I was told I had to be. I had to fancy women because I was a man. That was it. That was the end of it. And I was like but I also like that person and they're not a woman so what do I do with that?
00:05:25
Speaker
And that got more and more confusing as you entered high school. And I just found my time wasted to deny it to myself. I was like, well, it's probably just puberty. It's probably just like me wanting to be them because they're like what a man should be. And I'm not what a man should be. It's what I've been told. I'm not masculine enough. I'm not this enough. I'm not that enough.
00:05:49
Speaker
So I was like, maybe I'm just aspiring to be them. And then as I got older, I was like, well, these feels like actual, quite strong feelings. But I could never be in a relationship with a man because every, every encounter I had with a man was negative. Whether that be
00:06:10
Speaker
people at school, my classmates, whether that be my own dad or my brother, it was always them belittling me or putting me down or making me feel like I wasn't right. And I was like, well, maybe I, how can I like men? This doesn't make any sense. It's too big for the conflicting air. Um, and it seemed, it felt more sexual more than anything. I was like, well, maybe I'm just intrigued about their body. Maybe I'm just wondering what their body's like and how their body can best mind. And maybe that's just a natural thing.
00:06:40
Speaker
It wasn't until I was about 17 that I learnt the word bye. And that wasn't the word bye, it was actually bi-curious. And that was because a girl in my class came out as bi-curious.
00:06:56
Speaker
And everyone immediately was like, that's not a real thing. She's just saying that she's a lesbian and she's a lesbian. Like, just say it. And so it was like a light bulb came up and then immediately someone took a sledgehammer to the light bulb and it was immediately smashed. And so I'd moved on from being like, am I gay or straight? Am I gay or straight? Am I gay or straight?
00:07:19
Speaker
am I gay or straight? Am I gay or straight? Because again, it was like every now and then I'd be like, but by no, that's not real. Remember, that's not real. That's not a thing. So close and yet so far. Yeah, so close and yet so far. And that all came to a head when I was
00:07:40
Speaker
23 45 ish when I basically started to get actual romantic feelings for a man and this was a straight man so that went as badly as you can think
00:07:57
Speaker
I denied it for that another year because I was like, no, I couldn't ever have sex with a man though, because that would mean putting the thing in the there and I don't know how I feel about that. And it just
00:08:11
Speaker
I just kept finding ways to deny it basically because I just didn't want to admit it. It was the internalized homophobia, the internalized biphobia, all of the everything. So it was like, I need to not be this because it's just not going to turn out well.
00:08:29
Speaker
And then I was like, well, what I'm doing is causing more pain to myself. I realised every time I was trying to deny it, it was hurting more and more. It was making it harder and harder. And I was falling more and more in love with this person. And I was like, well, OK, I'm going to have to come out. I never ended up actually coming out to that guy. I found out he was talking behind my back when I was telling people.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah, it was very sad. He was like one of my best friends. I came out to like mutual friends and they were like, actually he's been saying this about you. And I was like, great. And so that whole friendship fell apart. And that was sort of 2017.
Struggles and support from community
00:09:08
Speaker
That was the moment where I can definitely say my life fell apart because it, and people will say when I say that, that I was being dramatic, but my life fell apart.
00:09:18
Speaker
all my friendships fell apart, my social groups fell apart, the things that I was involved in fell apart because of my falling out with that guy and my mental deterioration after that point. Because I've always suffered with mental health, I've always suffered with suicidal ideation, but that was when it got so loud
00:09:42
Speaker
I couldn't handle it anymore. My social anxiety went through the roof. Every interaction was equal. I was like, what if they're talking by my back? What if they think this about me? I was also trying to come out and going, well, what if they reject me? What if they don't accept me? And so I was dealing with so much. And yeah, 2017, worst year of my life so far.
00:10:08
Speaker
a lot going on in the world at that time too. Yeah, right. That made it even worse. It was Brexit and Trump and this and that and then 2017 and I was like, cool, we're just riding this through. That's fine. But I guess I'm still alive and I'm here and I'm doing a lot better.
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah, eventually it does get better, but not straight away. Yeah, it's it's I'm glad you mentioned that because it's like it's something we've I've been wanting to talk more about on the podcast and like how it's for so many people this stuff is wrapped up in their mental health and like you sometimes the moments before coming to terms with this stuff or coming out or like
00:10:55
Speaker
it gets really dark before the clouds left in a way. But then I want to talk more about this with you because it's almost like at least it seems from watching your social media presence and your videos that from that place of it being really bad, you can almost have a rebirth and rebuild the way that you
00:11:19
Speaker
want and you know find an affirming community and and it really I know it does get better so I guess let's get into this now I was gonna save it for later but like how did you build back from that like what what led you to the place you're in now where you're able to talk about this stuff that presumably was like very difficult to talk about in 2017 there's a lot to say there I feel like
00:11:48
Speaker
the rest of the show. We'll talk about this. I feel like if I, the way to summarize it all though is if I didn't talk about it, I'd be dead. It was one or the other. It was one or the other. It's like I talk about it or I die. And death didn't feel like I think that could happen to me because I honestly, I've written about this. I honestly spent so long
00:12:15
Speaker
willing myself to die and it wouldn't happen. And I'd never made an attempt on my life. And there's a lot of complicated feelings there around the fact that there's actually a history of suicide in my family. And so it's not a thing that I felt I could ever do because I'd seen the impact of suicide firsthand.
00:12:41
Speaker
within my family and the way it impacted my family and my family dynamics. So it's not a thing that I could ever bring myself to do, but it's a thing I always willed myself. So I didn't think I could ever do it, but I was hoping that it would happen. And if it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. And I was like, well, okay, then I'm at the bottom. There's literally nowhere else to go from here apart from to just move forward.
00:13:08
Speaker
And so I had to put in a lot of work. Like I said, 2017 was the worst year of my life and it wasn't me coming out and everything's fixed. It was a whole year of me coming out from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. It was me starting with telling one of my best friends and the ending with telling my mom. Like December 2017 was when I told my mom
00:13:36
Speaker
But January 2017 was when I told one of my friends. It took me a whole year to finally get to that point. It was a whole year of emotional turmoil. And at the end of 2017, I was like, the only thing that's going to help is me. Well, I was already engaging with the community at that point. At the end of 2017, in October, I was on Twitter, I was on social media, I was talking about my thoughts and my feelings and what I was going through.
00:14:01
Speaker
And 2017, the end of 2017, I finally went to the LGBTQ community. It started with two groups, London Gamers and Gamers Inc., because I was like, well, I'm a
00:14:14
Speaker
I'm a video gamer. That's a big thing about me. I love video games. Let's find that bridging gap. Let me find something where if I can't talk about all of this, I can just at least talk about video games. That's where it started. I entered these groups. I went to clubs and bars and whatever and met people and started engaging with people and following people.
00:14:38
Speaker
I'm just talking, you know, there's an article that Zachary Zane wrote about me where we had an interview with him about how Twitter saved my life because it did, because that's how I found people who I could talk to about what I was going through, to find people who'd gone through similar things, understand I wasn't alone. And then it was about a lot of healing. It was about
00:15:02
Speaker
setting up new boundaries, forming real friendships, like real genuine friendships and really knowing what I want from a friendship and then making sure that that's what I get and if it isn't then immediately discarding that friendship, making sure that my friends are honest and real with me and
00:15:24
Speaker
also aligned on politics because so much it was my friends were very much like oh it was we could have fun together and we have similar like interests in terms of video games or this or that but it was like no being aligned in like our ideologies and our political stances and all of that so I had the right people around me
00:15:48
Speaker
And making sure that I had people who I could talk to about anything who were there when I was struggling, who I knew I could rely on. That was really, really important to me. And so 2018, it wasn't over. 2018 was me rebuilding my whole life. It was like a reaver. I honestly look back at my life prior to that and I'm like, I recognize him, but also I don't because we're not the same person anymore.
00:16:20
Speaker
There's so much of me where I'm like, oh, that's the same happy, loving, blah, blah, blah kind of person. But I'm also so different. And honestly, people who met me before 2018, no, you didn't. You don't know who I am. Don't come up to me and be like, oh, I know you. No, you don't. You don't know who I am. 2018 was me rebuilding everything.
00:16:47
Speaker
Then at the at the end of that year, it became me wanting to give back. And that was also what helped heal me, volunteering, writing. 2018 was when I got back into my writing and it was very much like it wasn't meant to be what it is now. It was writing was always a passion of mine. And it's like, well, let's engage in that instead of going, oh, you're not a good writer. Why do it?
00:17:17
Speaker
Let's just write. Let's just put random stuff on blogs. Let's just do one thing a month. Let's see how it goes. Who cares about the numbers? Who cares about this? It's writing for you. And the idea was for me to actually do all of this so I could eventually write, build up my writing skills so I could write fiction.
00:17:37
Speaker
and yet how I am, I took a book on bisexual men. Did not make me throw the pad out this way, but I'm grateful for it at the same time. That was a big ramble, but that's like everything that happened on 2017, basically. Cool. That's awesome. I want to get to the book in a minute.
00:17:53
Speaker
When you said you got in the community of gamers, I'm curious, was there like a specifically by component to
Finding community through LGBTQ+ gaming groups
00:18:00
Speaker
that? Did you meet by people or was it just a community of people that you connected with and that alone started you on this path?
00:18:08
Speaker
There wasn't a specific by element, but it was an LGBTQ plus gamer group. So it was gamers as in gay, gay. Yeah. Emphasize that. But I didn't like people. Yeah. It was like LGBTQ plus gamers as two groups of them in London.
00:18:29
Speaker
I did meet by people through it as well. Some of them I still talk to a lot. Actually my main friendship group I actually met through one of those groups. I still go to their events and stuff.
00:18:44
Speaker
And yeah, I've also met a lot of people who aren't necessarily, they're not necessarily bi gamers, but they are like queer people of color gamers. They are just like LGBTQ people who we have similar interests with. So they might just be like a white cis gay man, but there's something else we can talk about there.
00:19:02
Speaker
But it was just my sort of gateway into like, I didn't feel like I could just go to a bar or club and just like talk to random people. And she was like, well, I could go to these and I could have something to talk about. We have that similar interest and be like, oh my God, yeah, are you playing the blah, blah, blah? And then it's like gaining friendships and I'm thankful for what it gave me.
00:19:24
Speaker
Right. That's awesome because so often there are just like the bi discussion group I go to, which is great, but it's like there's these intersections of interest and yeah, you can find a queer community in something else you already are comfortable in and that can be a great gateway.
00:19:44
Speaker
And usually you see these puns with bi groups, like bi puns, but it's nice to have a gay pun also. Gamers is one of the rare examples.
00:19:57
Speaker
So I also did the same thing the year I came out with like I had this list of people I was going to come out to and it started with a close friend and then my sister and my parents were more like in the middle not quite at the end. My like homophobic friends who had expressed homophobia were at the end of the list.
00:20:16
Speaker
But yeah, how did you like decide and go through that list? What was it like? Was it like getting easier each step or harder because you were approaching telling your parents? What was that like?
00:20:29
Speaker
It definitely got harder as it went down the list, definitely. I started with the people I hang out with the most. Mainly I started with the people who knew the person I was in love with. I was like, I need to talk to you about the fact that I'm in love with this person. And I can only tell you that after I come out. That's any way it makes sense. So I'm like, I'm bi, also I'm in love with that guy. You know our friend?
00:20:54
Speaker
How do I deal with this? And then I started with coming out with friends who I knew were queer because I was like, even if they weren't people I was like super close with, it's like, I know, like I was, I don't know, like friends I'd known for like five, six years, but I came up with the, to the friends who I knew for like maybe a year or two because I knew they were queer, I knew they would understand.
00:21:17
Speaker
And then I came out to sort of my lifelong friends. I was like, you need to know this about me. It's important for our relationship. And they were all really supportive. All of my friends were always really supportive. And then I came out to my sister because I knew that she would be supportive because this is the biggest. Like, for me, my parents were lost because they were the ones who had expressed homophobic views. They had openly expressed that.
Family influences and coming out
00:21:44
Speaker
not so much of like hate crime or we would throw you out but very much like i remember my mom's making comments on the lines of like i wouldn't like if any of you turn out to be gay and my sister was like what if one of us are like don't say that no don't say that no no don't don't don't say it um and you know my dad would make
00:22:05
Speaker
off-handed jokes, you know, there'd be like women's football on TV and you'd be like, oh my God, look at all of these lesbians. And it's like, what is your problem? Very weird behavior. So I knew that they had to be last. I knew my sister would be good because anytime my parents would say that, my sister would defend. She didn't know anything about me, but she would be like,
00:22:32
Speaker
I wouldn't mind if my son turned out to be gay and they're like, oh, don't say that. You say that now, but no, you wouldn't like it. She's like, I wouldn't care. Why does it matter?
00:22:40
Speaker
So I came out to her and then I came out to my mum at the very end of the year. I mainly came out to her because I was like, well, I'm actually going to go out to an LGBTQ plus event and I'm just going to come out first. But honestly, every single time it was still hard, even when it was like my close friends who I knew would probably be fine with it.
00:23:04
Speaker
we were out all day and I tried to say it to them and I bottled in and I texted them on the way home. My mum, I tried to tell her all day and I literally told her about five minutes before I was about to go out so I knew there was an exit. It was just so difficult. There was one friend where we spent the whole day, we went and watched Moonlight and on the way home just before I stopped I was like by the way I'm bi and she was like
00:23:30
Speaker
Do you want a medal? And she's like, it doesn't matter. Like, why do I get it? I was like, fair. OK. OK. Like, it's so many. Like, it doesn't matter. I was like, OK. And after she was like, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it dismissive. I love you and I'm really glad you could come out to me. But also, like, it doesn't matter to me. I'm happy for you. And I was like.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. How did you feel about that reaction? I mean, it's kind of like a lot better than it could be, but I don't know. It's also a little, yeah. I will. What did you feel?
00:24:07
Speaker
I feel like I was happy because I felt like I was so tense about it. So when she was like, do you want a medal? I was like, that was not anything I expected you to say. So it kind of broke the tense, the like, the tenseness in the air and the tenseness in my body. And then afterwards, like, when she came back, I did feel a bit of a way about it. But after when she came back to me, she texted me and she wanted to make something up. She was like, I'm sorry, I realize I sound very dismissive. I had no idea what to say.
00:24:34
Speaker
apart from like to me or Vinnie and whether you're bi or not like i love you for who you are and i'm really happy that you could come out and i was like yay like that's sweet but no i knew that like when she said that she was good with it she has a friend who's gay as well and you know i was just like i know she's gonna be fine with it but
00:24:55
Speaker
Still, it doesn't make it any easier at all. Right. And it still feels like, okay, they might look at you differently now, or who knows when it will pop up again as you're in relationships, or have your family, or whatever. Yeah, exactly.
00:25:22
Speaker
I want to talk about something you kind of touched on. You also wrote a piece this by Visibility Day in September about visibility for people of color and by erasure and why it's so important, especially for people of color. I'm going to read a quote. You said, and it's related to masculinity, which is what you were just talking about and how that gets sort of conflated with sexuality.
00:25:47
Speaker
You wrote, while societal expectations of men are in general entrenched in toxic masculinity, this becomes almost suffocating within my British Indian community. Our community reinforces incredibly traditional gender roles. Can you tell us about that and how that contributed to your coming out process?
00:26:07
Speaker
Yeah, I mean just my own household but even like my friends and my other family, my extended family, you would see in the household it's very, very traditional. The woman cooks, the woman cleans, the woman does this, the woman does that, the man is the person who works all day and then expects to be looked after.
00:26:31
Speaker
It's a lot stronger outside of my immediate family, but even in my immediate family, it's very like that, and the expectations are passed down. You know, my mum would expect my sister to cook and help her cook and help her clean and do all of this. She wouldn't expect me and my brother to do any of that. Sometimes clean up, sure, but like, she wouldn't expect us to come out into the kitchen and help her cook. And even if she did, there would be more of a penalty to my sister, she didn't.
00:27:00
Speaker
So there was a very strong expectation of what it meant to be a man and what it meant to be a woman. My dad barely cooks. He actually really can't. I remember there was one instance where my mum wanted to do something on Assassin's Day, but my dad wanted to invite around his mum and wanted my mum to cook for him. And I was like, dad, why didn't you just cook for her? And he was like, oh, I can't cook.
00:27:25
Speaker
I was like, well, that's a you problem, surely. Why does my mom have to be at your beck and call and serve you in this way? But that's how it is. It's so often entrenched in this. And it meant that from a young age, I was belittled. I was put down for my supposed lack of masculinity. It was, why are you crying? Why are you so emotional? Why are you so dramatic?
00:27:54
Speaker
Why? When are you going to stop being a girl? When are you going to grow up? When are you going to be a man? I was a lot of that and it got worse and worse as I got older because I wasn't going to the gym or working out. My dad would literally see other men, see how built they were and be like, why don't you look like that? That's what a man is supposed to look like. Why don't you look like that? And
00:28:21
Speaker
When I was in high school, I could excuse it in the way of, like, well, I'm focusing on my studies, Dad. Don't you want me to focus on my studies? And I'd be like, oh, OK, OK, OK. But when we went to university and my parents dropped me off, my dad saw all these people who are my cohorts, who were the same people who managed to get to the same university as me, and saw these men who were muscular. I went, look, they're at the same university as you. Why don't you look like them?
00:28:49
Speaker
It's so entrenched in that. And I remember when I came out to my mum, her first thing was, one of her first things that she said was, your dad always used to say to not let you play with soft toys. To not let you play with tushes. Because I was obsessed with tushes. I would have all the Pokemon soft toys and this soft boy and that soft boy. Even when I was like 15, 16, 17, 20 buying these soft toys.
00:29:17
Speaker
And my mum, that was one of the first things my mum said because she thought that that was what was influencing me. And the fact that she maybe didn't let my dad be as harsh. My mum always used to protect me from my dad's harshness. And maybe she was thinking maybe if I just let him, maybe if I just let your dad tell you off and push you more, maybe you wouldn't stand out like this.
00:29:40
Speaker
And it comes from within the community as well. If you don't follow these certain rules, if you don't abide and act in a certain way, the whole community looks at you like you're strange.
00:29:56
Speaker
the whole community starts gossiping and talking and saying things and it spreads and it goes around and so there's like an expectation there as well like when I came out to my mum one of the other things that she said to me I wasn't really speaking to my dad at that point and so she basically kind of informed my dad my dad found out
00:30:15
Speaker
my dad actually found out this is a whole other story my dad actually found out because my my cousins outed me um he he lied and said that he saw my twitter actually my cousins showed him my twitter um whole other story do you want to tell that story when was when was that so i don't know exactly when it happened this is the worst part i don't know exactly when it happened all i know is art like came out to my mom i put it on my twitter
00:30:41
Speaker
And a week later, my mom told me that my dad knew, and he saw it on my Twitter. And my dad had confronted her and said, oh, you know. And she was like, what do you mean? He's like, you know about Vanit. You know. I know you know. And then they had a conversation. But he lied at that point, and he told my mom and my family that he found out because he was randomly on Twitter. His colleagues told him he shouldn't go on social media.
00:31:10
Speaker
which is definitely a lie. I was always already like, my dad is not a social media person. That doesn't sound right, but whatever. And he found my Twitter and saw it and was like, what is this?
00:31:22
Speaker
But that was a lie. I don't know exactly what point he found out. My cousins basically showed him my Twitter. He found out and he'd been keeping that secret for goodness, how long? And that's how my brother found out as well. I didn't actually get to tell my brother. My brother found out because my sister and my mom were arguing with my dad and my brother was like, what the hell is going on? And so they had to tell him what was going on. So have you had conversations with your dad and your brother about it since then?
00:31:53
Speaker
I've had conversations with my brother. I haven't really had a conversation with my dad. My dad knows, and my dad knows I'm in a relationship. He knows everything. He seems fine with it, but we haven't actually sat down and had a conversation about me being bi and what that means and all of that.
00:32:13
Speaker
and also in the way that he has behaved and how that's impacted me because I've tried to have those conversations with him in the past and that's kind of why we stopped talking because I got to the point where I realized I was having conversations with him about hey
00:32:28
Speaker
all of the things that you used to say to me when I was younger, this is how it impacted me and this is how it hurt me. And he just basically withdrew instead of having the conversation. He denied he didn't even wrong. It's called the Davo technique. He denies it. He then says that I'm the attacker. He basically reverses it. It's a way of reversing the victim and offender and basically plays the victim
00:32:57
Speaker
and says that I'm attacking him and I'm the bad guy and then everyone then turns back on me. So I just don't bother anymore.
00:33:08
Speaker
But yeah, we haven't had this big sit down. But basically, the reason I was bringing it up was my mom was having a conversation with me. And back when my dad hadn't revealed all of this, my dad had said to my mom that he's fine with it, but he doesn't want everyone else to know. And so he basically wanted me to keep quiet about it. And when I said I'm going to post on social media, I'm going to be more outspoken about it.
00:33:35
Speaker
Even she was like, well, why'd you have to do that? Why does everyone need to know your business? You don't need to tell everyone. And that's a big thing in our culture as well. It's like, you don't want everyone else to know your business because they will somehow use it against you or it will hurt our reputation or brand or the way we're seen. So it's a lot of that that you have to deal with in the community as well.
00:33:58
Speaker
minimizing it, gaslighting and turning things around. We could get into all that for a few hours. I know what you mean.
Body image and self-esteem challenges
00:34:08
Speaker
And it's also interesting you brought up like the body image stuff because actually we've had a bunch of user like listener questions about that about like how to deal with that in the body community. And it's funny just yesterday I was reading an article that
00:34:22
Speaker
an interview with Kumail Nanjiani about his body transformation for the Marvel movies and how it was treated sort of differently, the perception of it, than like the Chris Evans, like the Chris Pratt, all the Chris's who have been in Marvel movies, like theirs was looked at differently and not given the same kind of scrutiny. And it really led to like body dysmorphia for Kumail.
00:34:49
Speaker
I'm curious like when your dad said that stuff to you or other people like even not the body stuff but the gaslighting were you like frustrated by it and but able to sort of shield yourself from it or did you did you internalize it and did you experience dysmorphia?
00:35:08
Speaker
Oh no, I wouldn't say I necessarily experienced body dysmorphia, but I did hate my body. I did absolutely hate my body. I didn't do anything about it to try and change it, but like right now I wear skinny jeans. I never used to, would I even do it anywhere near skinny jeans because I felt like it would highlight my legs. That was always a big thing that would be brought up is how skinny my legs were.
00:35:34
Speaker
I would never wear shorts. Even when we were in Barcelona in the scorching heat, I would be wearing jeans. I would be wearing straight leg jeans, black jeans that would not give anything away about my body. I would be wearing t-shirts, sure, and I would show my arms, but that would be as far as I would go. I would not wear vests. I would not wear crop tops. I would not be even been seen shirtless apart from if I was in a pool.
00:36:01
Speaker
Absolutely no way in hell. I would not do anything like that. And I also felt like a lot of stuff just didn't look good on my body. I would not feel comfortable in suits because I felt like my body just wouldn't work for it. But yeah, I basically just wouldn't show any part of my body. I didn't feel comfortable in my body at all.
00:36:23
Speaker
And then yeah, all of the other stuff, the gaslighting and all of that, that was definitely internalized as well. I definitely felt like I was a bad person. TM trademark, like I was a bad person, whatever that meant.
00:36:40
Speaker
um that i was the problem and so anytime anything would go wrong i would beat myself up mercilessly over it because i would be like it's my fault i'm a bad person i do this i hurt people i'm the mistake i'm the person wrong and that's why i experienced so much depression and anxiety i was so worried about what i would say
00:37:05
Speaker
to friends and to people who would like be good with me. I would be like, they hate me, they think this about me. I always said that one thing, they're gonna hate me forever. But yeah, so in terms of the sort of like gaslighting and the reverse to my offender and all of that sort of manipulation, that was definitely internalized as well. So I used to think I was a bad person, TM, trademark.
00:37:31
Speaker
whatever that meant like a bad person is what I thought I was and so anytime something would go wrong I would blame myself I would beat myself up mercilessly over it because I was like it's my fault I'm the wrong I'm in the wrong I'm a bad person
00:37:47
Speaker
I ruin everything. I'm the mistake in all of this. And that's why I was experiencing so much depression and anxiety. I would be worried about what I would say and how I was hurting people. I would think that, you know, no one likes me and that people would, especially when people would open my back, that would really hurt. I think someone would say stuff like, oh, you're too much or you're too this.
00:38:13
Speaker
It would hurt because I would be like, see, I am the wrong. I am the bad. I'm a mistake. And that's what led to a lot of like suicidal ideation as well. I was like, I'm a mistake. I shouldn't be here. People don't want me here. Yeah, it hurt a lot. It really, really impacted me for sure.
00:38:32
Speaker
it's so many facets of it and you've written about suicidal ideation and it's something like 40% of bi people have considered it. And so, I mean, we've talked about that a little bit, but I'm curious like, you know, now you are shirtless on Twitter with some lovely bi lighting and you are like, you know, not thinking about yourself the same way, like clearly different than what you're talking about now.
00:38:59
Speaker
Did it all shift with coming out? Like what led to the shift? Was it all coming out? Was there like therapy involved or finding community or was it like just kind of over time a lot of little things added up?
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was a lot of the finding the community coming out definitely was the trigger point. I felt coming out and me basically having that kind of rebirth moment definitely led to me examining the rest of my life.
00:39:34
Speaker
and working to change all of that as well. So it was me not just finding new friendships but setting new boundaries, working on my body image, working on how I saw myself both internally and externally. And you know it's weird because I talk about this a lot but I have to also remember that I am in a privileged position where I experienced a lot of this issue with my body but also I'm privileged that I'm skinny and actually
00:40:03
Speaker
If I was a larger person, if I was fat, I would experience a lot more hardship, not just internally, but structurally. So it says a lot that even as a slim person, I was experiencing this because there's so much more structural stuff, so much privilege that I have structurally.
00:40:23
Speaker
but I just worked so hard on myself and I think that especially coming out into the queer community you see so many people who are embracing themselves entirely and so you see people who are doing stuff like being shirtless and doing that and doing that no matter how they look, no matter how they act, no matter who they are
00:40:44
Speaker
you know, seeing how much people love themselves definitely helped. Being part of the community and feeling supported definitely helped me feel like I could do more and I could work on myself more in a way that I felt like without having that support, I couldn't do any of this. Without having people who were championing me, I don't feel like I could do, I've done anything I did.
00:41:08
Speaker
And then it was just small things. I feel like the first sugar point for my body was we had a really hot summer. In the UK, you don't often get them. But we were having a summer where it was like back to back sunny days.
00:41:25
Speaker
No, no respite in between them. And then I was like, well, it's really hot. I need to wear shorts. Something has to give. I was like, right, let's try it. And so I just small little things was let's try it. Let's put myself out there. Let's take a photo of it. Let's upload it.
00:41:42
Speaker
I always say to people that you shouldn't rely on external validation. So often we do rely on external validation. But sometimes when we don't have the internal process for us to make ourselves feel secure, sometimes you need that external validation. But it's important not to be reliant on it. And so what I often say to people is get that external validation, find that external validation, but then internalize it.
00:42:11
Speaker
until you can make it a closed circuit and you don't need to rely on it anymore. So what I used to do is when people would say something nice, firstly, I would take the compliment. So often people don't take compliments, they reject compliments. So we take the compliment and we're like, thank you, thank you so much.
00:42:29
Speaker
Then I would internalize the compliment. So I would say it back to myself, look at myself and be like, yeah, you know what? My outfit does look good today. My hair does look good today. My body looks nice today. I would say it back to myself. Even when I didn't believe it, I'd be like, oh, well, you know, they're saying it. Why would they lie? What do they have to gain? And I would reason in that way, be like, why would someone only have a good body if they don't think it, right?
00:42:53
Speaker
They have nothing to gain in that, right? So often people tell you your body looks awful, right? Or they wouldn't say anything. So we take that on board and go, okay, let's internalize that. Let's spink it. Let's say it back to myself.
00:43:06
Speaker
And then I would push myself a step further and keep going until I felt more and more comfortable. I remember the first time I wore like a mesh shirt. I didn't look down. I was like this the whole night. And then sometimes you're like, Vanneeth, your shirt is so see-through. I'll be like, is it? Wow. Okay, cool. I wouldn't even look. I wouldn't even look. Until the very end of the night where I went to the bathroom and I saw myself in the mirror and I was like,
00:43:35
Speaker
okay yeah maybe I look good let's take a picture of that let's upload that got the validation internalized there and then now it's a closed circuit I take photos of myself I'm like I look hot let's take a photo of myself
00:43:48
Speaker
And I don't even have to upload it. Sometimes I just take it for me. Sometimes I just take it to be like, I'm just feeling myself and just be like, yeah, look at me. Look how good I look. I mean, that's something I never thought I would say about myself ever. And it's so fulfilling to see that.
00:44:07
Speaker
but also outside of my body, doing that as well, internalizing compliments, people saying that you're good at this, you're good at that, your writing's good, whatever they say about you, and taking that and then saying it to yourself. I read my writing now, and I'm like, damn, that's a damn good paragraph right there.
00:44:29
Speaker
Which, again, when I was writing back in 2018, I was like, my writing's shit, but let's publish it, you know? And so I did so much of that. I did do a little bit of therapy just with the NHS. It was helpful in terms of giving me some techniques. I realized that CBT, what's useful, isn't what I need. I need counseling.
00:44:52
Speaker
and recently some of those feelings have been flaring up and I'm like I need to hopefully try and find a counsellor. Hopefully I can find a counsellor in person because I'm not really feeling the whole Zoom counselling if I'm honest. I don't think I want to do that so hopefully with things getting better I can go and get counselling because I think it's going to be really useful to me to actually really reconcile some of the feelings and some of the things I went through
00:45:20
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I could talk about like mental health stuff for like forever. And we have but I but I love that that tactic of like using the external validation and keeping it close and then internalizing it so that you don't rely on it. But it is like it is it can kind of rewire you and change the way you think about yourself and and then help you kind of hold on to your own identity.
00:45:49
Speaker
like people would always say that to me like look at yourself in the mirror and say something beautiful about yourself and be like right but that doesn't work no it actually does but it actually does it actually does and like of course like i said it's easier for me because i don't have to deal with all the systemic bullshit like it is just the trauma experience
00:46:09
Speaker
If I had to deal with systemic bullshit, maybe it would be a lot harder. Not maybe, it would be a lot harder. I know a lot of fat people who absolutely love their body, but then they are reminded of it daily. So, you know, I can't speak on that and I don't want to be like, oh, just do this. I don't want to be patronising to people who have to deal with all of that on top of it. But just it really helps for me and definitely recommend it to everyone.
00:46:41
Speaker
I really want to hear about this book that you're writing. I've seen you tweet a little bit about it. I don't know exactly what it's about other than by men. So tell us as much as you can about what you're working on.
00:46:54
Speaker
So the book is, like you said, focusing specifically on bi and pan and Omni and all of those men, MSpec men.
Writing a book on bi, pan, and omni men
00:47:04
Speaker
It really came off the back of the hashtag is where it started and the publisher reached out to me and was like, we'd really love for you to write something. And I was like, I would love to write a book about bi men because there's not enough of that.
00:47:16
Speaker
And so the main things I'm trying to cover are representation and education and because I feel like that's where it all starts. That is the lack of that or the negative of that impact us in a way where we maybe didn't have the vocabulary like me or you didn't have that support or you saw this as something negative and therefore weren't able to come out
00:47:39
Speaker
and then I have a chapter on coming out and talking about people's personal experiences but also the sort of structural stuff like monosexism and the sort of inversion theory as well where people will believe that if you're feminine you're gay and if you're gay you're feminine and stuff like that and the need for masculinity and all of that. I talk about dating and relationships and different forms of relationships and how that can be
00:48:07
Speaker
impacted differently within being M-Spec and monogamous versus polyamory and open relationships and how like how they can play into each other right because like greedy is so often what M-Spec is told and that's what how people see polyamory as well it's like well you're just greedy and it's like
00:48:25
Speaker
No, but also who cares? It's a lot of that. Who cares if I'm greedy? Let me be greedy. What's wrong with being greedy? Yeah. Right. It's China to talk about stuff like that. I am talking about health, so not just mental health, but also sexual health. Talking about the history there, but also
00:48:49
Speaker
the current day as well of like the lack of resources, the lack of research specifically around M-Spec men because so often it's like gay and bi men, you know, just tack on that and bi right there. And then I go into intersection, so I talk a little bit about being M-Spec as the colour, I had a big long rant of colonialisation and that
00:49:16
Speaker
um being trans which i'm working on at the moment and talking a lot about like um the recent wave of terrorism especially in the uk um i talk about um m-spec and being a-spec as well so like asexuality and aromanticism
00:49:33
Speaker
I really wanted to talk on that because I feel like so often they're seen as things that don't work together. It doesn't make sense because, you know, so often we see M-Spec as hypersexual and greedy and wanting everything while we see asexual as like an aromanticism as prudes or robotic or all of that stuff. And so really discussing like how do people figure out they're both when they're so opposite sometimes in the way the world sees them?
00:50:03
Speaker
And then my last section is really talking about being in an LGBTQ plus spaces and pride and finding yourself and understanding yourself. That is a chapter that I haven't worked on yet.
00:50:14
Speaker
We'll get to that. But a lot of it is centered around people's experiences. I've got a lot of people who have contributed. And really, I talk about the statistics, I talk about the issue, and I'm like, here's this person and what they experienced. And sometimes I use that as the launching pad to be like, and they're not alone in that. Actually, this, this, this, and this.
00:50:36
Speaker
But, you know, I talk about like, slates in schools. I'm like, well, this is what I experienced in school. This is what this person experienced and blah, blah, blah. And I'm trying to make it sort of cohesive through the piece. So I'm like, well, you know, the lack of representation in education
00:50:53
Speaker
meant that I didn't have vocabulary, so many people didn't have vocabulary, so many people didn't see themselves and that meant that coming out was harder because you didn't see it, you just saw this binary and that affects dating because people will try and shove you into a binary and then because of that constant structure you experience worse mental health, you experience worse sexual health and you don't get the resources and the help you need because people don't understand you
00:51:23
Speaker
And then how do you find pride in all of that and how do other intersections play into that? So that's kind of what I'm doing. I'm hoping it's going to be good. It's really stressful writing a book. You said you're writing one too, so you'll know. How many times have you, at the urge, just delete everything and start again?
00:51:45
Speaker
like oh I just like stop working on it for months at a time because I'm just like oh this is never going to work yeah that too that you know like shit I have a deadline can I get any like I've asked for one extension because I was also busy trying to find a new job and moving house and it was just you know I got my my contract started in in June and the deadline was supposed to be the end of August and in that time I have
00:52:10
Speaker
we've had a pandemic, I have got into a relationship, moved house, and found a new job. A lot going on. I've been busy. Awesome. I want to ask about something you mentioned in there, the intersection of learning about stuff in school. You were recently on a panel about being bi or pan in STEM, in STEM fields.
00:52:34
Speaker
What is their bi-representation in STEM? What have you seen or what's lacking? And why is that important? Is it important? I mean, it's not about sexuality, but why is it important?
00:52:47
Speaker
For me, I feel like, specifically in my broader STEM, which is tech and engineering, but I feel like STEM in general, it's a very bros club. But tech specifically, you know what, tech is so borderline onto nerd culture and nerd culture is so often very man, very bro, very dude. And that gets such an air of toxic masculinity and banter culture.
00:53:15
Speaker
which can just make the environment feel very uncomfortable at times if you are someone who is not an additional man, man, if you don't fall in line with that. A lot of people don't think it's important. They think your job is a job, go into a job, you do your work, you put your head down. But I really believe in bringing your whole self to work. I feel like if you are experiencing difficulties in your personal life, you can bring that into your work life. Your work life is like,
00:53:44
Speaker
God, like 714, it's like what, like 30% of your week? It's like, so like on your weekdays, it's like half of it, like half of your waking hours and people seem to think, oh, that's not important. And I'm like, well, it constitutes so much of your time, right? Like seven, eight working hour days, right? That's a lot of time. And if you're experiencing something, some sort of hardship in your personal life,
00:54:13
Speaker
you would hope that you could talk to someone at work and say I'm experiencing this so you know they know what's going on and that can make life easier so you aren't overburdened with stress you're like I need to keep performing at the right level so I don't get fired so I don't get this I don't get that right and
00:54:32
Speaker
I felt like I didn't have that in my previous job. I came out, well, I came out, but I didn't feel like I could come out and work because I was like, well, if I do, what if it just makes it worse? I'm experiencing depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation. And I don't feel like there's anyone I could talk to about this. I don't feel comfortable saying it because they might either, at best, they won't understand.
00:54:56
Speaker
I feel like at best they just won't understand. At worst, they will look at me different and it will make my life a lot harder. So that was my difficulty there. And I feel like STEM can be so bad at this. And so I feel like it's so important to talk about it and so important to have those conversations.
00:55:19
Speaker
in terms of making not an environment not just diverse but inclusive from the offset not just doing inclusivity because someone has come in who is different and needs that support and therefore they have to put in all the work to make it inclusive. My new workplace it's there's so many networks and support and there's pronouns in my email bio
00:55:42
Speaker
And that's something that they put from the offset. They're like in their training, they're talking about George Floyd and talking about the issues of race at the offset. And they're talking about the importance of like making people feel safe and having these conversations in my onboarding training. And I think that's important to do.
00:56:06
Speaker
It's very important because it takes the burden off of the marginalized person who it would take so much more to bring that up, but to have the space already created is really so helpful.
00:56:25
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about the hashtag BisexualMenExist and how did that take off? And then also tell us a little bit about your YouTube channel with Lois Shearing and what you're doing there.
00:56:38
Speaker
So bisexual women exist. I actually started not last year when people think it did. It started in 2019. People don't realize that because I had a very small follower base back then. And I made it just in response to seeing a lot of biphobia specifically targeted towards men and just wanting some positivity.
00:56:57
Speaker
And that isn't actually why I brought it back in 2020. It was off the Love is Blind episode, but it wasn't really about Love is Blind. It was about the biphobia that triggered on the back of that. I was seeing polls floating around. People were asking, would you have a sex with a bi man? People were saying comments like, no, because he wants it up the booty hole. And all of those are very, very crude. There was a lot of very crude comments. I screenshotted a few of them.
00:57:25
Speaker
It wasn't necessarily about trying to teach bigger. So often people say, oh, I don't want to have to keep reminding people that we exist. And I was like, to be honest, it's not just about them. It's about people who were like me four years ago, five years ago, who were looking outward and going, I don't exist. I can't see myself. I don't exist. And just being like, well, let's just have this little wave of positivity
00:57:51
Speaker
not only to help people who are like us a few years back, because I feel like so often when you get into activism, we so often forget about the people who we were.
00:58:03
Speaker
those years ago and things that we can do, things that would have just helped us, even if it does seem so simplistic on the face of it. We're like, oh, why do we need to keep doing this stuff? Because there were people who were like us five years ago who are struggling, right? And so that was so much of it. And also it was just finding a way to connect and also override negativity. Instead of having to spend all our energy fighting people and explaining to them and teaching them and doing all of that,
00:58:33
Speaker
who definitely don't want to learn. People who are commenting those kind of crude stuff on hair, saying it out of ignorance and wanting to be educated, there's so many bad faith actors you could try and have a conversation with them. But there are so many people who don't want to learn. They just want to say stupid stuff and laugh about it.
00:58:56
Speaker
And so I was like, instead of us getting bogged down in that and getting depressed about that, I was just like, well, anyway, let's do something happy and let's ignore that that happened and let's override it and overwhelm it. And that's what happened. No one was talking about the love is blind thing after that. No one was talking about these polls or these comments or anything. They were talking about bisexual when exists and all of these beautiful, wonderful, incredible faces. And that's why I did that. Awesome. The ambassadors.
00:59:26
Speaker
was a very similar thing, but it was from Lo's perspective. Lo, when she was coming out, she was saying that she looked to YouTube and they didn't see anything. They didn't see anything on YouTube that could help them. They kept seeing negative stuff about bisexuality and how bisexuality was bad and all of that stuff.
00:59:45
Speaker
And so they wanted to make something. They wanted to make something on YouTube to try and create some of that positive content. Again, in a similar way to sort of override the negativity and hopefully when people typed in bisexual, they would come across our videos rather than all the crap.
01:00:03
Speaker
And so that was her idea. She really got me on board because we were all involved. It was me, her, and another person, Essie, who were involved in a pink news thing in, I think it was 2018. It was for the Buy Visibility Day thing. And they cut out loads of our content. And we were all like, eh. And so Lo reached out to both of us. Essie wasn't free. And so it became a project between me and Lo.
01:00:32
Speaker
And we both started doing it and it was just like, yeah, I mean at the moment we haven't released any videos for a while. Apologies about that. We've been super busy. Her with her book launch. Me with, yeah, me with my writing. But yeah, that was really her birth child and I'm just really happy to be on board with it and try and make these videos.
01:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. It's the same, basically the same reason Alex and I started this podcast was like we were on Slut Ever talking about pie men and it was great. Like I was glad they highlighted us, but you know, we talked for an hour and a half and they used five minutes of it. And we were like, what about the other 85 minutes? Like, can we have a bite? Can we have a bite?
01:01:19
Speaker
So we were like, let's just try to remember what we said and turn it into a podcast. And it worked. Okay, last last question. This is a question that's at the top of my list. And we didn't get to it because we got into other stuff. And I might have just let it go. But I'm curious, maybe something interesting will come of it.
01:01:39
Speaker
So we talked about how you came to the bisexual identity, what it was like to come out, the struggle and then the joy of going through that. Now it's a couple years later. I'm curious, what does your bi identity mean to you today? Has it evolved? Is it different? What does it mean to you now?
01:02:00
Speaker
It's interesting. God, that's a tough question. I feel like so much of it is still what it was back then. It was about me claiming something that I had denied for so long that I had put away for so long that I wouldn't accept for so long and really vocalizing it.
01:02:21
Speaker
But now it also just means so much more. It means community. It means support. It means love. It means acceptance. It means so much of what a lot of the activists say about being subversive and breaking the mold and being out there, even within the LGBTQ plus community, being out there, being loud and proud,
01:02:49
Speaker
But it's also morphed in so much in terms of like the way I vocalise my identity so much before it was about me claiming ownership of something that I wouldn't let myself have. But now it's about me helping others, like bisexual men exist, for example. It's about me putting that out there so other people can feel safe in that word. So other people can feel like they can claim that word and take ownership of that word.
01:03:16
Speaker
in a way that they couldn't. So much of what I do in terms of writing and talking and panels is to try and touch other people and be like, you're okay, you can do this too. And every now and then I see someone who's been helped by something and I'm just like, I saw multiple people come out over bisexual when exists, even just having conversations with people.
01:03:44
Speaker
I had a really, like back in like February 2020, I had a conversation with Quinn, who you may know from social media. And I was having a conversation with them at an event and they were saying that like, oh, I think I'm bi, I'm not sure. And I was like, take ownership of it. If you think it is, do it, be it. Like, you don't have to be this and that, blah, blah, blah. I was like, you know, I haven't done this, I haven't done that. I don't tick those check boxes.
01:04:13
Speaker
It's okay and then they came out and they were like you and they literally said to me like you and like so many other people having those conversations helped me and So now it's like when I talk about it. It's not always about me anymore. It's about everyone else around me I feel like now when I say it
01:04:33
Speaker
you hear other people go actually I might and you you trigger that conversation and other people yeah and that's what I really love about it that's what I really love about making that that word out there and visible
01:04:49
Speaker
That's awesome. I love that. It's like this very tough internal journey where like we're low and then we can rebuild and now make it easier for everyone because, you know, by revolution. Yes, by revolution. Yes. So cool. Awesome. Thank you so much, Vanit, for being on Two By Guys. It was really nice to finally meet you and get to chat. Thank you for having me. It's been really great chatting with you.
01:05:19
Speaker
Bye! Two By Guys is edited and produced by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our music is by Ross Mincer, our logo art is by Caitlin Weidman, and we are supported by the Gotham, formerly IFP. Thanks for listening to Two By Guys.