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Still Here (with special guest Kat Jeffery)
99 Plays8 months ago
In this very special episode of "Friendless," host James Avramenko and guest Kat Jeffery unpack the nuanced nature of friendship and self-discovery through a gripping and honest dialogue. James and Kat rekindle a connection from 15 years past, exploring the progression from substance-fueled partying to soberiety, and present interactions that reveal who our true friends are.
Listeners are invited to delve into the real meaning of unconditional love in friendships, as James questions the balance between unwavering support and allowing friends to face the consequences of their actions—a true act of care. Kat shares her life-altering journey from partying to sobriety, providing a powerful testament to the purity and risk involved in a friend's intervention.
This episode also touches on the influence of geography on maintaining connections while pursuing personal growth, the significance of mentorship, and the impact of creating art that connects with others. James and Kat dive deep into the influence of literary legends like Sylvia Plath and Joan Didion on their lives and how certain works have shaped their relationships and behaviour.
Additionally, the dialogue delves into themes of artistic identity, debunking the myth of the 'starving artist,' and recognising the importance of acknowledging and seizing significant life opportunities. The fluid discourse later covers the impact of social media on authentic human interaction, the importance of integrity, and the challenge of competing in a capitalistic society.
Artistic reflection, codependency, and personal authenticity round out the discussion, offering listeners profound reflections on how to navigate one's narrative with honesty and intentionality.
Remembering the personal milestones of friends, seizing creative impulses, and the sense of community are just a few of the poignant moments in this episode that will resonate with artists, seekers, and friends alike.
Stay connected with the growth-oriented and heartfelt narratives of "Friendless":
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Tune in to discover why knowing when to stand by or step back from a friend might be the highest act of love.
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Transcript
Introduction of Friendless Podcast and Guest
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back to Friendless. I'm your host, James Avramenko, and this week I am joined by the incredibly multifaceted artist, Kat Jaffrey. Kat is a visual and film artist who was also a part of the Emmy-nominated The Last of Us costume team. We discuss the complexities of friendship after sobriety, leaning into the kismetic opportunities of life, and just what Pedro Pascal smells like in real life.
Reunion and Artistic Journey
00:00:35
Speaker
All this and so much more, so lean back, get comfy, set your volume at a reasonable level, and enjoy my interview with Cat Jeffrey here on Friendless.
00:00:47
Speaker
I am so friggin excited this week. I have not spoken to my guest in, let's see if it's 2024 now, 14 years. I don't think we've spoken. I've seen you like grow from, you know, just a theater student to like,
00:01:11
Speaker
crossing the country, different countries, doing all kinds of incredible stuff. I'm going to let you speak to it, though, before I get too lost in the gush. The one and only Kat Jeffrey. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Jane. So I used to be here. So just to kind of set the stage for listeners who may not be familiar with you, who the hell are you? Who the hell am I? I am Kat.
00:01:42
Speaker
Okay, cool. Next question. That's all I got. I was so bad at answering questions because I'm the one that asks everyone else questions in my life. I'm a costume designer. I'm a visual artist. I'm an outdoor adventurer. Yeah.
00:02:04
Speaker
all the things. I don't know. I feel like I contradict myself with all the things that I am. Yeah. But that's something to be said for like, you know, like there is that idea of like, I think artists these days will sometimes have this impulse to impulse to limit themselves, you know, and they'll say, I've just been an actor, so I'll just be an actor. And that's what I'll be for my, you know, for the entirety of my failed career. You know,
Artistic Balance and Evolution
00:02:30
Speaker
And what I've seen you do is just like, you know, I've heard it described before is like following the impulse, right? And like when you get an artistic impulse, it's not that you have to shape it into your art. It's that you have to follow that art, you know? And if it goes one way, that's where you go. Right. And I feel like that's what I've watched you do. And it's fascinating. Yeah, it's hard. It's like following the impulse and like really listening about like, is this where the growth is or is this like making me small?
00:02:58
Speaker
Or do I need to be small to like heal myself for certain things? And like having like, there's so many dimensions of like following your path that aren't what our teachers taught us, like at all, where they're like, just go and go hard and don't quit. It's like, well, why can't I have balance for a second? Why can't I enjoy stability? Like it doesn't always have to be like rock bottom, poor, mental health driven, chaos, artists binge drinking. It can also like,
00:03:28
Speaker
be that, and then growth, healing, other jobs. There's so many layers that need to sing at different times. I feel like that's been such a big part of all the decisions I've made in the last little while. I feel like, too, the concept of the starving artist and the long-suffering poet and all these things, I feel like that came back around in Vogue in a time when artists
00:03:54
Speaker
could be broke and still survive. Like you didn't have to make a lot of money to be able to buy a house in the 70s, you know? So like, yeah, go live in kits, which at the time was a fucking, you know, like was like a slum. And so like, yeah, buy a song, you know, buy a house for a song. And now 50 years later, it's worth $2 million, you know? So it's like, of course, they're gonna have the attitude of like, just be broke, just lay around on the beach and write a poem every day, you know?
00:04:21
Speaker
Oh yeah, it's so easy. And then there's like people who have the perspective of like, well, with inflation, it's actually the same as it was in the seventies. And I'm like, do the math. That's just not how numbers work. Yeah, exactly.
Educational Influences and Career Path
00:04:36
Speaker
Um, so you have been all over the country and all over, you know, the continent. Um, but I think to sort of like get us from, you know, I was reading you went to NYU and you've been in Vancouver, you're back in Calgary now. And, and I think where, uh, where I'd like to start with.
00:04:55
Speaker
with that sort of trail is uh where we met which was in victoria and and and i'm really curious i've i've come and gone with this question but i'm really curious uh with guests like you who haven't spoken to in so long and i'm really curious like what
00:05:13
Speaker
people sort of hold onto, you know, like, and what kind of memories kind of float up, you know? And so I'm wondering, like, when you think of Victoria, when you think of like our friendship, like what's sort of the first things that sort of bubble up? Oh my gosh, first thing, Saul Williams. Like, are you ready? Yes. Send the shotgun to the head.
00:05:41
Speaker
this with you. Like you were, I was like in first or second year or something and you were in fourth or fifth year. I took a victory lap. You took a victory lap. And so I think like, yeah, you were doing a directed study and I don't know how I met you probably smoking outside or at a party at many people.
00:06:05
Speaker
And I don't know, we were talking something about drums, something connected to drums, and then you were doing this directed study with Sal Williams, and you were very into slam poetry at the time. And yeah, I think we connected over shared inspiration of language and profound beings, like Sal Williams, who's such a prophet,
00:06:34
Speaker
Yeah, that was awesome as a young artist to connect with you who was older and felt like I could really talk to you as an equal, more than the age gap difference.
00:06:47
Speaker
Sure. That probably speaks more to my infantilized brain than anything. I was just arrested in development, you know? You're like, no, it's nothing like that. I just forever, I could just forever, you know, this is going to come out sounding wrong, but like I could just, for the rest of my life, I'll be able to very easily speak to 17 year olds, you know? I can only speak that language, you know? Yeah, you get it.
The Last of Us and Personal Inspiration
00:07:11
Speaker
So funny.
00:07:13
Speaker
But yeah, no, I mean, I do, I do. That was, you know, I, that final project that I did for listeners who weren't in Victoria in 2010, I did this like directed study. It went through the whole year, actually. I did a bunch of different like mini workshops, basically using Saul Williams' poetry to like try and inspire people to sort of express themselves and express feelings and get, you know, basically following artistic impulses.
00:07:41
Speaker
And through the years on reflection, I really, like, come and go with how I feel about the project, you know? Because I was like, we didn't do anything, like, radically inappropriate or anything, but there is this, like, sense in me that I was like, it's just like a bunch of stoned white kids, like, banging on pots behind the theater. Banging on pots, like, speaking with, yeah, I know. But that's like, there's just this, um,
00:08:11
Speaker
There's like aftermath feelings of any creative project you do. I feel that way about like, when you said that you looked at my website, I'm like, Oh God, there's like so much work that doesn't feel like my work at all. And I don't identify with it, but it's like, it's like cringiness, but you kind of have to sit in that. Uncomfort of like, that's what your artist life is, is like these.
00:08:34
Speaker
things that you're chasing ideas. And then you're like, wow, why did I do that? No, that's fine. That was like, had to be the place I was at. Do that.
00:08:42
Speaker
Well, they're like time capsules, right? They're little anchor points. And I continue to have that reckoning even with this show. I've been doing it for almost six years now. And I cannot go back and listen to old episodes because it's like a time machine to hear what I was worried about at the time and just the way I was speaking, what I was speaking about.
00:09:10
Speaker
sometimes that's really cool. And then sometimes it's like, it just makes my entire body want to like fold in on itself, you know? Totally. Oh, that's a, I'm like, there's some, I have, I've been like keeping a wolf skin since I was like 16 or 15. And the ones from when I'm 17 to 19 are amazing. I'm like, who is this girl? She's like, so asking all the questions, it's just like, all these questions are being asked and not like comments on what's happening or like,
00:09:40
Speaker
It's a different place in your brain, but then there's other ones that are just so cringe. You don't even want to. But that time that like, when I knew you like that university times, it's like, that's the question asking period. If you're in a lucky position to like have that nurtured at school, like a lot of people get shut down at that age too, but yeah. Do you find that that like.
00:10:06
Speaker
I guess my brain goes into this direction of there's a little bit of a tragedy there to hear that it was only a period of your life, right? Even though I totally relate to what you're saying, where it was like, I think back to my time, especially in Victoria, and just how I wonder about this all the time. The novel and verse project I'm doing right now is really rooted in that idea of
00:10:29
Speaker
Where did I go? Like, how did the person I thought I was become who I am now, you know? And so I really relate to this idea that that period is over. And yet at the same time too, I feel like I remain just as curious and I remain just as clueless, you know? And so like, what do you think is shading things differently now than then?
00:10:58
Speaker
I mean, like I've had, I mean, same with me. I still feel like as curious asking so many questions and have had like repeat, just amazing periods of like intense inquisition. But that period is like, you're ignorant and you don't have ego. Yeah. Like, or some people do have ego at that age. Like you're just like, what do I do? Like fresh out of home, just so awake and like,
00:11:28
Speaker
anything I don't know any book makes you alive but I feel like ego it might be somehow connected to that like you suddenly become good at things or you become known for things and then you're like oh then I'm gonna go do that and then that becomes like a personality like your job title becomes and I think that kind of happens in those early
00:11:50
Speaker
You start getting some of the answers kind of thing and then that sort of roots you somewhere. Yeah. And you run with it and this might not be the answer, but run as hard as you can with it. Yeah. I mean, there's no, there's no answers here. This is just a conversation. The second you start thinking you're giving answers, the second you've gone down the right, the wrong path, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so, you know, I,
00:12:18
Speaker
I eventually escaped Victoria and have been on my own little Odyssey and have now landed myself back in Vancouver. And I'm really curious, like, you know, obviously these are huge time jumps. So I don't expect you to just gloss over things. And I'd like you to just like tell the story how you want to tell it. But I'm really curious how you got from you, Vic, to the fucking Emmys. Like, like, like.
00:12:48
Speaker
Recognizing that there's massive stories in there, you know, but totally. But I'd love to hear where that where that starts. So then we can kind of go from there. Yeah, I guess the main one was I went and did my master's at NYU at Tisch School of the Arts. And that was like I really wanted to go to school in London at the time. And I was like putting everything out and wanted to do directing and costume design and production design.
00:13:15
Speaker
And then I went to the school and it was not as advertised. You had to pay everything. It was this dream school that got me through everything. I just had it as the care at the end of the stream. But Mary Kerr, who's still a good friend of mine. Blessed Mary Kerr. Blessed Mary. She was like, you should interview the schools. Don't let them interview you. You should interview the schools. So I went to New York.
00:13:43
Speaker
the tish to just see it as a backup and completely fell in love with the program and had these amazing designers look at my portfolio and I was completely lit up. This is where I belong. I've got to go here. And then cut to getting a phone call from the chair of the department at six in the morning in Victoria that they went to offer me a full ride and to come to the school. It was unbelievable. I felt like
00:14:14
Speaker
all my dreams had come true and all my hard work was worth it. And so I went and moved to New York City, which is like not on the bingo card. I never wanted to live in New York. It was so just such like an impulse moment of like, this seems like exactly where I'm supposed to go. Cause it's like so unknown for me in my dream. And then I was there studying for three years and then stayed on for another two.
00:14:44
Speaker
But being the like nature girl mountain climber that I am, it was like pretty tough to say goodbye to that part of my life in a big way. And like everyone I met in New York.
00:14:57
Speaker
I would just be seeking someone who climbed mountains as well. If someone was like, I'm from Colorado, I'd be like, mountains, let me talk to you. And they're like, I don't want to talk to you. I want New York people. All of these people in New York are hiding from their hometowns. And I felt like I was just trying to connect the mountains into nature and what really moved me as an artist. And on top of that, what I didn't realize in New York as much as it was an incredible five years
00:15:27
Speaker
loved it so much. I was seeking European theater and that like crazy weird visceral Berlin, Europe style opera and like opera being cool and weird and scandalous and it was not that at all. It was like suits, realism, America, and then the American ideal that is like very
00:15:54
Speaker
I wanted to change it, and I just couldn't see my way in to change it. I feel like American theater's idea of being clever is just shoehorning whatever current president is in office into a Shakespeare play, and they're like, whoa, got him again, boys. Yes, exactly. And they're like, and we're going to design a perfect living room. And everyone's going to be amazed that it looks exactly like a living room with a working sink.
00:16:22
Speaker
We can turn the oven on. That's the thing that everyone loves the working like kitchen. It's like, has nothing connected to ideas whatsoever. Yeah. There's, there's an interesting, like I remember, I remember when YouTube really picked up and I remember watching it and being like, Oh,
00:16:45
Speaker
Realistic theater is dead. Like there's just because there's just there's no reason to pursue realism in any artistic form when YouTube exists. Like I remember it was I watched Charlie bit my finger and I was like no artist will ever
00:17:03
Speaker
Write something this intimate or personal or like real life, you know Yeah, like so we might as well just stop like like, you know, and that wasn't like stop making art It was like let's stop trying to make Charlie bit my finger because there already exists, you know And we'll never have that impulse. So yeah I'm away that TV has become
00:17:25
Speaker
So massive. Think in 14 years, what TV has become is like astounding. Like little mini movie magic every single time. And what theater everyone was obsessed with was so popularized because like films and TV weren't as readily accessible. And so now all the design is like pushing realism and TV as much as possible. And like at the end of the day, this is like, it's like you're in this room with all these theater creators and
00:17:55
Speaker
the audience is only limited to this place and the place that you're at. So you could have these grandiose ideas of inclusivity and showing the world you wanna live in. But if it's the same Upper East Side audience time after time, and that's what made me change into film because I was like, oh, the audience connection is so much farther ranging than theater is.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah. So did you end up making it over to Europe or how did that where did you go from New York? So from New York, I didn't go back to Europe. I my parents are European. So it's funny that I I've just kind of like shut that I went and visited a lot and saw a lot of the theater and there was a lot of theater from there that would tour to Brooklyn specifically, which is amazing to see. But my dad had terminal cancer in the last two years of me living in
00:18:51
Speaker
New York. And that's what made me realize like, and I had immigration issues and it was, Trump was happening and he just didn't want anyone to stay in the country. So in it really hard. And it just was like, you're not, you don't want this future. Like you don't want to be American in the end. And you want to be climbing mountains and being an artist and being close to family. So I moved back to Canada.
00:19:21
Speaker
And then a month later, my dad passed away. So it was like such a moment of like, so in like, so sure that I made the right decision that like stepping away from my career, no one understood what I was doing, but in my heart, I was like the absolute right answer. Like no part of me thought it was wrong. And what brought me in full circle connection to the Emmys is that I met
00:19:49
Speaker
this person at my dad's funeral who connected me to my future boss in Vancouver, who was this amazing breakdown artist. And like, mystical things, you know, woo woo, whatever. I'm like, my dad fully connected me to this person. There's no doubt about it. And so I'm in the end, I worked with her and then
00:20:15
Speaker
Our whole team from Vancouver was hired by HBO and moved us to Calgary. So it's like directly connected to my dad's funeral. Amazing artist in the city who's working on, she does breakdown artistry. And then I learned how to dye clothes and do all the breakdown special effects on costumes. And I loved that I wasn't in a leading role anymore. I was like,
00:20:40
Speaker
No longer a designer, I could just focus on healing in grief and also work on the visual arts of a costume. And then it moved me back to my hometown. And that show was The Last of Us, which got nominated for an Emmy, and that's why I went to the Emmy.
00:21:00
Speaker
I just like, I could, I could, I have a million questions. Um, um, you know, I am a big believer, you know, I don't have, you often hear people being like, you know, the universe, the universe is doing this, that, and I think, I,
00:21:17
Speaker
It's
Kismet and Life Opportunities
00:21:18
Speaker
I, I, I, I,
00:21:18
Speaker
not that I don't believe that stuff, it's that I don't like the term. I lean more towards, I really like the term kismet. I really believe in, I believe that there's kismet in the world, you know? And I think that there's these moments where you are shown doors, you know? And then whether or not you walk through it is up to you, you know? And I think that's gorgeous, you know? And, you know, it sounds like, you know, through an,
00:21:47
Speaker
incredibly painful moment, you know, you were given choices and, and that's fucking incredible. Like it's amazing. I mean, it makes you look back at like those, I mean, I think everyone, you must have those too in your life or like the deepest places that you've gone. There was a way out, like there was a door that presented itself. And it's like, that's the most important door because you put all your energy into it. It's like that first step up. Yep.
00:22:17
Speaker
But yeah, it's pretty amazing. That just sent my brain in a whole tailspin because that's something I've been really learning a lot about is these ideas of like,
00:22:31
Speaker
Sort of like self ownership, self responsibility, you know, self love, right, you know, and and for most of my life, just because of my upbringing and and and any number of other factors like I was always really afraid of ideas like
00:22:48
Speaker
I always saw anything self-nurturing as ego and ego was evil because ego meant you were putting yourself first and you always were expected to put someone else first, right? Um, that was being the good person was sacrificing yourself for someone else, you know, and which is all a load of horseshit. That's just anxious attachment bullshit that just, just, you know, it's manipulation, right? And, um, and so the more I learned about like,
00:23:13
Speaker
codependency and how that stuff develops and all these elements that go into these, you know, the way you show up in the world and how you take, the way you break that is by taking responsibility for yourself, you know, and recognizing your participation in your life, right? And how it really quickly becomes really fun to do that, you know?
00:23:39
Speaker
It doesn't take as long as you think it might, you know? And then suddenly you're like, oh, yeah, I rule and I can do whatever the fuck I want. Like, not I'm going to go be mean to people, but it's like, if I'm going to lean into something, I'm going to lean it for me. Right. And the power that comes out of that is just magnificent. Like that's how it reminds you that you are free to choose things for you, for yourself. And that's like really true to you rather than
00:24:08
Speaker
following someone else's path. And I'm like avoiding saying the word because it's so for use right now. You really do have to understand who you are authentically and follow it and be like, no, I don't want to do that. Like recently, I've realized I hate climbing. I hate climbing. You love the mountains. I'll hike to the top of the mountain. I'll do some scrambling bits. I'll climb to the peak.
00:24:37
Speaker
But if there's like gear involved on rocks, it's so fucking boring to me. I'm like, absolutely not. And I just.
00:24:46
Speaker
taken stand in my life to be like, no, I'm not climbing. Yeah. Well, and the way these things change, right? You know, um, I see, I see, I see authenticity as playing really hand in hand with integrity, you know? And I think, I think, you know, just like things like fate and kismet and just like so many of the terms we use in our day to day to day life, I think that we're,
00:25:08
Speaker
more often than not we're just to the side of the real the real intention you know we're always so close but we're like we're like 80 percent there you know and so this idea of like you know like authenticity i think is it plays so directly into it and i think what that drive it leads us towards is acting within
00:25:26
Speaker
integrity which is like what's gonna be like you know ethical for me and what's gonna be moral for me you know and these things are different for every person and and and and i think recognizing your own again it's just that thing of like your own responsibility to yourself you know and letting it change you know yeah you liked climbing before and now you don't that doesn't mean something's wrong with you now or something was wrong with you then it's just that
00:25:53
Speaker
Now you have different information. So now you're going to make a different choice, right? Totally. Absolutely. And I love that. Yeah. Integrity is interesting because there's more, um, there's more like honesty in connecting to your values when you have integrity. Like you have a moral compass, you have a direction, it has more of a sense of direction with integrity.
00:26:18
Speaker
than it does with like any of the other words, I think. Yeah. Well, and especially, you know, you were saying before about like, when you recognize, you know, your own participation in these like cycles, you know, like you recognize that like, it's not everyone else's fault that things happen to you, right? Like, you know, um, you know, I, I've been learning lots about like,
00:26:39
Speaker
how I participate in cycles that I've, I'm trying to be cautious around, I'm not trying to call anybody out or anything like that, but it's this idea that you decide how to show up and then when people react however it is they're gonna react. My impulse usually is to adjust myself to placate them, right?
00:27:07
Speaker
I'm the same. Right? It's like people, right? Yeah, but like that's a form of manipulation and and I see it everywhere now and I you know, the more I learn about the stuff I see people, you know, I'm on my own forums talking about these things and and and I'm seeing people being like,
00:27:23
Speaker
If they would just do this, then everything would be good. I'm so good. I'm doing the best I can. Why aren't they do? And it's like, no, you're not actually doing the best you can because you are like negotiating for something that you're being told shouldn't be happening. So quit me trying to make it happen. You know, and then that, and then that, I think that, that spirit, you know, gets put into everything you should, everything you, you do in your life. Right. Like, and, and so if you.
00:27:54
Speaker
I'm spitting my brain out. Sorry. I'm having a little autistic fucking spiderweb thought, but I'm here for it. Thank you. But it's like, yeah. But if you root yourself in the integrity of the choice, then you kind of can't go wrong, you know? Yeah. But it's about choosing for yourself, not about choosing for like, well, if I do this, then someone else will like it or someone else will. Someone else will be happy and they will change. Then they'll feel better. It's like, well, are you feeling good right now? Or do you just feel the tension in the room?
00:28:24
Speaker
Are you uncomfortable with the comfort of someone being sad or frustrated? Because you don't get frustrated because of the ruins of the people. It's like, what can you learn in that frustration moment? I'm learning a lot about that too. I'll be like, oh, well, they're just not good at the things I'm good at. And my therapist was like, why don't you flip that around and realize that you're not good at the things that they're really good at? Instead of being like, oh, well, I'm so good at,
00:28:55
Speaker
making decisions and moving swiftly, they're so much better at patience than I am. Like the opposite of that is patience. So I'm like, oh, I never thought this would be around before. It's so simple. It's like if you move the competition element of it all together, right? And you just say, wow, you're good at this. I'm good at this. I'd like to work on this. You can work on whatever the fuck you want to, because it's none of my business, you know? Totally.
00:29:25
Speaker
like hands off this is yeah yeah it's yeah it's all so wild I'm what yeah we learned so much like every if you want to learn more you learn more but if you don't want to and you're just like happy go lucky
00:29:41
Speaker
Uh, happy with the way everything is in the world, which definitely shouldn't be at this point. So you're a sociopath. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, I wonder about that sometimes. I wonder, like, do you, do you.
00:29:57
Speaker
Do you sometimes feel like an envy for people who appear ignorant to the world? Yeah, because they talk about it. Yes, but yeah, and it looks like it is, though. I mean, though, it looks like it is, but it looks like it is what the internal world actually is like. You know, I know because, OK, this is this is what I first think of when you say that and ask me that I think of people at like coffee shops who just don't even notice that there's a line up behind them. Right.
00:30:27
Speaker
And that it's a really busy time and that they're just taking up all this beautiful, like they're just holding space in their thing, getting their needs met. That's it. That's all they're doing. Taking a very long time to do it. And there's a huge group of people and I'm like the opposite. I'm like, Oh, no, I don't actually, it's fine. Don't worry. Like I'm like.
00:30:48
Speaker
trying to go faster. Oh, shoot, I didn't even order my coffee in the end because I'm like, so worried about the lineup behind me. Like, that's my. And I admire the people who can just hold space, say what they need, be in that zone. Doesn't seem like they're freaking out about anyone. Like the people in public spaces who can just be there. I'm like, are you a free human? Like mentally, are you free of the thing?
00:31:15
Speaker
Yes, I wonder because you know my impulse goes towards like that must be so selfish that must be but it's like that's me imposing a judgment on someone right like I have no idea what their inner world is I have no idea what their inner monologue is I don't even know if they have one or not you know and and I think that like the impulse
00:31:36
Speaker
It's something I've been trying to scratch at recently is this, you know, as I see the conversation around whether it's about mental health in general or going deeper into attachment theory or just, you know, all the networks of all those different concepts and modalities that come into play.
00:31:53
Speaker
It makes me really realize that like, you know, I mean capitalism is the root of all evils. And, and it really, we're like culturally indoctrinated to be anxiously attached to, you know, in that like, we're expected
00:32:11
Speaker
we're expected to be anxiously attached as a consumer, but we're expected to be avoidantly attached as a citizen, you know? So it's like, so it creates this like almost like schizophrenia in us where we're supposed to be super mindful of everyone else. And yet at the same time, we're also supposed to be saying, fuck you, I'm going to get mine first, you know? And, and so it's this like conflict, like internally that just cannot reconcile itself, you know?
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah, all that like sinks my heart just like knowing that feeling so deep, like how much, how true that is. That's completely dystopian. Like someone should write a, someone should write a novel that's so banal in its existence and description of life, but it has that message of like,
00:33:00
Speaker
the avoided versus the anxious. I mean, I think you want to take that. I mean, I mean, look, I'm not I fucking hate writing prose. So like, I think I think maybe we'll we'll dog ear at it. We'll doggy. We'll get a ghostwriter. You know, I need a ghostwriter for that one. For sure. That's really like poetry. You know what I mean? Because I'm like, it's quick. It's good for my ADHD. You know, it's out. Absolutely.
00:33:38
Speaker
you know, at the heart of the whole project, whatever this thing has become, is this question of what is a friend, you
Defining True Friendship
00:33:48
Speaker
know? And like, and how do we be friends in this society, you know? And so I'm curious for you, what does being a friend mean? I think there's so many different types of friends.
00:34:08
Speaker
different definitions of friends. But a core friend I think is someone who's like, weathers the storm with you, but is there when the dust settles. And it could be that you're on it on your own, you're like in the storm alone, but they're going to be there at the end of it, like always. And on that about friendship, like there's amazing friends who have, if you have a past with friends, like they've seen you through different areas of your life.
00:34:39
Speaker
like different emotions, different landmarks, and they've witnessed your patterns just like you've witnessed theirs. I feel like then you are, like that's like an up level of a friendship is when you've like witnessed them through something landmark could be happy or sad. And if you just see that and like share those things and you're like reading a history together, I feel like that's what makes you able to show up for each other in the future.
00:35:09
Speaker
Witness is an incredible term behind that. I think that's just that evokes such a philosophy behind it that really like, oh, you know, like I always use the term like it spiderwebs my brain because suddenly I'm thinking nine different thoughts at once, you know, something I've been thinking a lot about, you know, that that actually kind of trails into that. I'm curious, your thoughts on is
00:35:35
Speaker
Sometimes I think we're mistaking genuine friendship with trauma bonding and enabling because there's these ideas of unconditional love that I think
00:35:55
Speaker
So I've been thinking a lot about this idea of like, we were never really modeled unconditional love by our parents, you know? Like, because you kind of can't, you can't model it for someone else because life always comes with conditions. I think the only person you truly can love unconditionally is yourself, you know? And so when friends say things like, I love you unconditionally, it makes me like, I don't trust that. And I don't think I trust people who,
00:36:23
Speaker
enable friends to be shitty you know who you know i don't think i trust people who who will always have your back no matter what there are things like yeah you know um and and and it it's this idea i heard this quote recently that that was talking about like
00:36:39
Speaker
A true act of love is to allow a friend to experience the full scope of the consequences of their actions, you know, and to not protect them from that. And I'm curious where you land in that sort of like, is a friend someone who just like,
00:37:01
Speaker
Unquestionably has your back or is it someone you know, like you mentioned about like sometimes you weather the storm alone And then they come out later, you know, like like where do you where do you sort of land and all that? Um, I have so much experience with this like exactly this like I think school you you sort of I mean I think that like like I
00:37:30
Speaker
think this connects to what we're saying. A friend of mine, I quit like partying and like drugs and alcohol abuse two years ago. And it was a journey. I had thank you. It was journey I had to go on alone to get there and decide. But I had a friend really like, talk to me about it before I made the decision myself. And that
00:37:57
Speaker
to me is the most pure unconditional friendship is that she could have lost me in that moment. And I could have gone deeper into drugs in that moment, or alcohol, but instead she was like, this is not who you are. You're becoming shitty. Like, it's like comments on your state of being basically. And that is like such a risk to take as a friend.
00:38:27
Speaker
And knowing that you could walk, like you could lose the friendship in that moment. And that's enough of a reason though, to like love someone that much that you're willing to lose them, but also like help them save themselves at the same time. But it's not their job after that to walk you through the steps to get there. So like that's the complicated nature of friendship. It's like having, having history with someone enough to know who they really are and when they're not being themselves.
00:38:56
Speaker
And they're not showing up to the community, but then also like knowing that you can say that, but then it's not your job to walk them through the door. So like, I feel like that's the messiness of friendship is knowing when it's okay and safe to say those things. And when it's like, totally not your job and not safe. And there's no rules on either of them. And you don't really, there's like no handbook at all of when it is right and when it's not right.
00:39:25
Speaker
It's pretty profound when it is right, you know? And that's just it is that I think that, you know, I'm someone who's never, this is one of the whole reasons for the show is that I've never really had long, deep friendships, you know? And, you know, I've had just sort of like people come and go in my life. And I've always been so curious about like, how do people hold on to friends? Like, how do you know?
00:39:51
Speaker
And what I've really come to value is realizing that like, you only really get those kinds of friends a couple of times. You don't really, you don't keep making that kind of friend, you know? And I do have that kind of friend. So I do recognize that like, I think I was chasing, almost like I was chasing the high in a way of like the thing I have with like two people in my life, but with like as many people as possible. With like 30 and you're like, I can have this deep,
00:40:22
Speaker
connection with all these people. But if you don't have a history, it's hard to start from scratch. Yeah. Cause you're not, you're never going to have that age, this age. I mean, maybe when you're 60 and you have this 30 years that you have not yet experienced.
00:40:37
Speaker
you'll be accountable. But it's like the rush, you know, and I think what you said about like, because that plays into so much of what like, you know, my therapy is teach me and then just like my reading and everything is just this idea of like, you only get to live your life, you know, and and when you try to live somebody else's life for them, or when you try to get them to live your life for you, like, you're, you're losing the plot, you know, and so it's like, it's almost like friends are there to like, they're still on their own path, but every once in a while, your path is kind of like,
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah. Totally. Totally. And that's a hard thing, like moving countries and like moving cities and is to remember that like some friends, I think we all have this experience. Some friends you do not have to talk to. And when you see them, it's like, no time is passed. It's totally fine that you don't talk all the time. It's totally fine. You don't text. You trust in the stability and foundation that like five years will pass and you show up again.
00:41:33
Speaker
And there's literally no harboring of anything because there's different like levels of friendship in your life. And like releasing that kind of control. Like it was hard when I was in New York, cause I really, I really spent a lot of energy in my Canadian relationships to continue those so that if I chose to go home, I would have a community to return to. And like, that's kind of, that's important when you're the one to leave.
00:42:02
Speaker
It's kind of your job to be the one to keep in touch.
00:42:06
Speaker
Yeah. That's such a powerful perspective because it's so true. Um, that like, cause everybody's just in their lives. If you're, if you're the one leaving the city, like nothing's changing for them other than you're just not coming out anymore. You know? So like you have to, if you want to be president in their mind, you have to make yourself be president in their mind, which is counterintuitive to like all my instincts, which is to just like hide, you know? Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:42:43
Speaker
I kind of, these kind of had, they kind of like piggyback on each other. But did you have a creative mentor and are you still in touch? Oh, that's such a good question. Um, not really in the sense that the type of mentor I always wanted, which was someone who had done the thing I wanted to do and was,
00:43:11
Speaker
giving me constructive but honest developmental instruction. So I never really got that with my writing and things like that. I got close a few times, but I've still never really found that mentor figure for me. So a lot of my writing still, even to this day, I've been writing poetry for 15 years, and I still feel like I'm flailing most of the time.
00:43:40
Speaker
In other elements though, like, you know, Warwick Dobson from UVic was very much a mentor for me. Ned Vukovic, who was my first year acting teacher was very much a mentor for me. Like my high school drama teacher, Mr. Dean, they were definitely
00:44:01
Speaker
you know, they were influences on me in periods of my life. But yeah, no contact with any of them, unfortunately. Some it's harder to be in touch with than others, but yeah, the sort of role of the mentor has always been something that's been very elusive for me. And that's been one of the sort of like,
00:44:29
Speaker
frustrations or, or I don't know the right word for it. It's been one of the things I've, I've continued to really seek. Yeah. And have never come yet. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they'll come at a different age. I was going to say, they say, there's that saying of like, when the student's ready, the teacher will appear. I guess I'm just not ready yet. You know, I think like you're probably a mentor to a lot of people as well, whether you know it or not.
00:44:55
Speaker
You can't find that person for you. The way that you're embodying your life and embodying the way that you can show up as a writer is probably inspiring a lot of people in their own way. Yeah. That's what I thought. I hope so. I've never really thought about it like that. It's such a
00:45:20
Speaker
It's hard for me to conceptualize that stuff because I don't try to like live. I don't try to live profoundly. You know I don't try to live like a.
00:45:33
Speaker
kuru or some shit. Like I just am just trying the best I can, you know, and I fuck up all the time. And I rarely, I mean, I, I, I, I stick the landing a lot more rarely than I would like, you know? And, uh, and so to think about that is like, it's intimidating, right? Like, cause it's like, I mean, it's not the reason you're doing things. Yeah. And it could be, uh,
00:46:04
Speaker
Yeah, just thinking of mentorship, like you might be one as well. I mean, I sure hope so. You know, I mean, that's the other side of it, right? Is that it's this idea of like, I, you know,
00:46:18
Speaker
Even back in New Vic, it's always been my philosophy of whatever I do, whatever impulse I follow, whatever art I create, if it makes one person feel something, then the job's done.
00:46:34
Speaker
Cause I'm, I'm, I mostly just create for myself. I create my, I create for therapy and I create for just like getting the thought out of my body. And if it resonates with somebody, then that kicks ass. But it's like, my job's already done by the time the art is out of me, you know? Totally. Right. Even just like a, just like how, like I had to become reflective even just for this. I'm like, I'm so grateful for that.
00:47:01
Speaker
that I'm having to ask myself what community means and friendship and who you are and this memory from so long ago and how precious that is and you get to do that every week with all these people. You're doing something people probably have always dreamed of doing and you get to, that's amazing that you've been doing it for six years and reconnecting with these long lost souls. That's really nice of you to say, because it is something I feel
00:47:29
Speaker
Really grateful for I love this fucking show like I've yet to I've been doing for six years I think I've been paid a collective like $200, you know Like it is I am NOT in it for the money, you know It's just yeah, it is a really magic experience to be able to you know I I think it's a pretty universal experience for people to be like, oh, yeah
00:47:52
Speaker
So and so from back in the day, I love that guy. I wonder what he's doing and then never. Yeah. And nothing. Right. Yeah. And so that was one of the impulses of the show was to be like, I, I, I miss everyone all the time. You know, like, like I, I.
00:48:13
Speaker
The nature of my brain is that I don't really have that memory degradation. The moment I think of someone, I'm like, I'm back the last time we spoke. And you remember everything. I get that. I feel that too. Some people I don't know very well and I'll remember all these details.
00:48:35
Speaker
I'm like, I'm not being creepy. I just have a really good memory. Exactly. Yeah. And like, I'll forget all kinds of other shit. I forget stuff all the time, but it's like, I was talking about this the other day of this, like, um, my brain will do this thing where it'll, it'll clock things that it
00:48:55
Speaker
believes is important to the other person. It won't always clock stuff that actually is important, like dates or times or appointments or actual things that I have to plan for.
00:49:12
Speaker
it'll clock information that's like, oh, that sounded like something that was important to that person. So it's gonna store it away, you know? And it'll be very random sometimes. And yeah, I've definitely come across like a complete creep for remembering like really fucking random shit sometimes, you know? And it's like, you couldn't remember my last name, but you remember like where I was when my grandma died, you know? Like, you know? But, uh,
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah. So it's like, yeah, it is a thank you for that framing. Cause it's really kind of you. And it also is like, it feels very balloting because it kind of is a part of the spirit of the show is like.
00:49:51
Speaker
One of the intentions is to like make everyone who's on the show feel as special as they have made me feel at some point in my life, you know? And to like really celebrate their stories and really give them a chance to feel like the fucking celebrities that they are in my eyes, you know? Totally. That's amazing. Good for you.
00:50:13
Speaker
Thank you. That leads me into, you know, you mentioned it very, very passingly there, but that is the continuation of the sort of core of the show is, you know, if a friend is the sort of like the individual connection, then I guess, technically, we could think of the community as like growing multiple connections, those these
Community and Connection
00:50:34
Speaker
kinds of things. And
00:50:35
Speaker
It's a question that I've only just started asking quite recently, kind of in the most recent season, and I don't really have an answer for it yet, personally. I continue to sort of mull it over. And I'm really curious for you, what does it mean to sort of, like, I guess the simple question is, what does community mean to you? But I think deeper into that is like, what does it mean to you to like show up within community and exist in community? And like, what is the responsibility to community? These kinds of things.
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like this is a hard one to answer. And I was like, really, I can only get into it as a feeling like, when I feel like I'm a part of the community. It could be a whole room of strangers. But it's this moment where you remember what it's like to be a human being. It's like the, the like, very carnal thing. I don't even know if that's the right word.
00:51:34
Speaker
carnal, what's the other word? Yeah, I mean, carnal, carnal isn't always just it isn't always debauchery. Cardinal is like a sensory thing. So you're like, you're like in the soul being of I don't know, like it's like deep in the bones, deep instinctual. Like this is human humanity is collect being in the collective group of people sharing ideas, talking, connecting. But like usually
00:52:03
Speaker
I mean, you can find communities online, of course, and can be seen online a thousand percent. But I find for me when community is most like deep rooted is when I'm not, I'm like, forget about my phone and no one's on their phone and you're all there raw humans without technology showing up as a community. And like, that's the carnal nature that I guess I'm trying to talk about is like,
00:52:32
Speaker
what we were meant to be from the beginning to join these social beings who group together and make decisions together.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yeah, we're a social monkey and we're, you know, years and years and years ago, I don't know how much real science there is behind this, but it always stuck in my brain. I think some random guy on the street told me this in Victoria, so take it with a grain of salt. But he was describing like, you know, nervous systems as like magnets and that there's like, you know, there's like a magnetic draw within our energy that feeds off of each other. And so when, you know, we're drawn to each other because of those sort of
00:53:09
Speaker
circular systems and the nervous systems and the energies that we put off. And we're nourished by in-person physical presence. I mean, that's what regulating is, right? Totally. And when you're reminded of the human experience, it's almost like one of those like I spy books where there's a baker and a post person.
00:53:31
Speaker
dog walker and like you're looking at like all these hubs of a city or an urban life and i'm like when i'm in a community i'm like talking to my neighbor in the hallway i know their name i see a stranger on the street we exchange some weird sentiment about something like there's a town hall meeting or you're mad about a building being erected and then you're like
00:53:57
Speaker
I'm going to give them a call about it and I'm going to be incensed about this. I'm going to take action. It's like just things from old days back in your life and you're reminded that those things are the most important things.
00:54:18
Speaker
It's so fascinating. And it's like, you know, I'm not somebody who I don't think we can ever get rid of the Internet. You know, like, I think that that cat's out of the bag. And I'm and I'm and you love it exactly. And it's like and I'm here for it. I work because of the Internet. You know, everything I do is because of the Internet. So like all hail Mr. Internet.
00:54:38
Speaker
You know, or, or Mrs. You know, whoever, whoever the internet is, you know, but like, um, I do.
00:54:49
Speaker
believe that we have to get a grip on it though, you know? And I'm wondering, like, by no means am I like, how are we gonna solve this? But like, where do you think we go? Like, where do we take this nebulous horror show that is social media and internet culture and all these things and how do we balance it with like,
00:55:16
Speaker
being a human being and only having the capacity for like a hundred names in our brain before everyone becomes an enemy and, you know, and all those things, right? Oh man, I, yeah. Oh, I think that for me, this is like so personal. It's just to get back in the real world, like you can meet online, you can discuss things online, but there's like nothing better than getting, like you could,
00:55:46
Speaker
Like even sharing the memes, I'm like, save them for me and then show them to me in person and we can laugh about them. Or that's like a very small example. Even like meetup groups are like, I'm sure like meeting people through social media. Like if you can meet in person once or yeah, there's like group, I don't know. There's like probably groups in Vancouver that are doing cold plunges in the morning and like joining
00:56:16
Speaker
like just getting out of your comfort zone to like join the community in that way and remember that there's so much more outside the internet and that nervousness that you feel if you're like like I get so nervous showing up to event like things alone even though I'm such an independent person and I'm so confident on my own I'll like drive thousands of miles on my own but like to show up to like a fitness class alone I'm like okay here we go
00:56:46
Speaker
let's do this and I'm like building my confidence all day. Like, wow, funny how that can trigger you. But then you're so much, you feel so much greater and bigger at the end of it because you do something that freaks you out. I just think so much is like, you just get back in person. Use online. We love it. It's an amazing research tool, but then like also
00:57:10
Speaker
Can it be done in person? I don't know. It's almost like it needs to be the diving board, but the pool needs to be the real world, you know? Yeah, I know everything you're saying I'm in complete agreement with and I was thinking about how like,
00:57:29
Speaker
Funny enough, it was a meme. I don't know if it's a singular meme or if it's a recurring line about every time I go on a trip, I pack 10 pairs of underwear because I'm convinced that this is the trip that I'm going to suddenly explosively shit my pants every day for two weeks. It's never happened before, but this will be the time. And it's like I get that kind of anxiety.
00:57:52
Speaker
every time I go do anything, you know, is that I'm like, oh, what if I signed up for some like intramurals baseball team and it's like my first game? I'm like, that's going to be the time I like say something horrendously offensive or I do something just soul damagingly. Like you completely lose trust in yourself and you're like, I'm just going to lose who I am immediately and just be like, who am I when I'm completely out of my element?
00:58:16
Speaker
Yes. Might be more you than ever, to be honest. And that's just it. And that's it right there. And thank you for saying it like that, because that's the framing, is that it's this fear of losing yourself. But it actually is like it's just challenging yourself. So my day job is I'm a skills development teacher. And it's so cheesy, but it's so true in that
00:58:42
Speaker
you don't grow in comfort, you know? Like you only really grow in challenge and in kind of in opposition. Like it's one of the frustrations of life is that like, we're, you know, like, I guess the analogy is that it's like, you know, a flower, like the seed grows under the soil by pushing itself through the soil. It doesn't sit on top of the soil in comfort. It like, it's got to work, you know? Like- A thousand percent, yeah.
00:59:12
Speaker
I'm, my friends make fun of me, but they also admire this part of me is that I'm like, I love hard things. Like, especially since quitting, like partying and alcohol and like being outside the system that is like, everyone else is doing the same thing in society over and over and over again. And as soon as you're like, I'm not doing that anymore, but I'm still going to be around you.
00:59:38
Speaker
It's so hard, but it's so liberating because you're like choosing not to act in that way. And then like running, it's like, Oh my God, so hard. And you just tell yourself to do it. And then you do it. And then you realize who you were before the run and who you are after. And you're like, I just think like difficult things and challenges are like my most motivating. It, it like makes me feel invincible. It's amazing. The harder thing I do, the more I'm like, what else can I do?
01:00:07
Speaker
Fuck, yeah. It gets me so high, but maybe that's like an attic brain. I don't know. I think a lot of people know that way. You know, it's a good vice to have. You know, I actually, as of this recording, I just day before or yesterday, I hit five months sober of all the of all the things of all the with the exception of vape.
Sobriety and Authenticity
01:00:29
Speaker
Thank you. I mean, this is cute. I was like, of all the vices I could have.
01:00:35
Speaker
You know, five months ago, this was the least of my worries. So it's still low on the totem, you know? But I'm curious. Thank you. I have two years is fucking incredible. And I'm curious, you know, because I've I've recently started being able to go like to parties, I go out dancing like, you know, I go out and do stuff I would have done high or drunk or whatever. And I go do it sober now. And I have a fucking blast. I know.
01:01:05
Speaker
And I'm curious, like, yeah, like, is it like, like, what's that journey been like? Obviously, I don't know. Everybody's recovery story is very different and very personal. So you don't have to go detailed or anything, but like, yeah, just the fun of it. I think that a lot of people think that sobriety is like horribly boring. It's incredible. It's actually not. And you can be your most weird, strange, outgoing self. Like I'm like, Oh,
01:01:34
Speaker
These are the spaces where I can actually just be like energized, jumping, dancing, like going so full on to match the energy of all the drunk people. And it's so, you're just like, this is great. And it's, and then you feel amazing the next day. And then you can like do the thing the next day, whatever it is that you want to do like that. That's like the time you get in your life. Incredible.
01:02:02
Speaker
And that's the fun of it too. I remember the very first party I went to where I was watching everyone's vocabulary slip as the hours went by. And I was feeling better and better as the night went on. And it was so fascinating to be like, oh, you're doing this because you want to get out of your head. And you can just do that by just getting out of your own way.
01:02:23
Speaker
You know, like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's all, and this is with no judgment and this is no like malice towards people who drink or do drugs or anything like that. It's, it's, it's, it's self-medication, you know? And, and, you know, I've, I've recognized part of my sobriety has been like, so what was I, what was I masking? Like, what was I trying to cover up? What was I trying to get through? Right? Yeah. Yeah. And like also, and like, what was I, it was like an,
01:02:52
Speaker
a signal of help like I'm like not okay like I'm so happy all the time and like one of those people that like seems like they're got it all under control and like people are like you're so strong and it's like yeah but then you're not and there's a lot of other stuff and so for me it was like and like a call for help more than anything and like acting out but not but like
01:03:16
Speaker
in no longer doing that I have to like completely own my emotions and like check in with myself now and it's like if I feel the energy come up where you're like just want to do this thing or like do what I used to do then like I'll go running go for a walk and it's like it lasts like five minutes maybe 10 max and you solve it and you're back and you're like yeah it's like it's just remarkable what your brain can do in like leaving those
01:03:45
Speaker
patterns behind. But you're right, there is a point in the night that I'm like, you're no longer present, not me, but them. Yeah. And it's fine. But you like you won't remember this conversation. And it's really made me ask myself about like presence, like when you're with friends. And when you're drinking, there is a point in the night when you're no longer present for anyone. And do you want to keep doing that? Like,
01:04:12
Speaker
What does that mean to you as a friend in your community? And when you're sober, you're still present for the conversation. You're still going to remember everything.
01:04:21
Speaker
And there's definitely a point when it goes beyond that and you're like, I don't need to be here anymore. Like. Yeah. Well, that's, that's been one of the driving questions behind this is like, since getting sober, it's recognizing how many people I thought were friends when really it was like, we were just drinking beside each other, you know, like, cause we were drinking for our own reasons that we weren't really talking about, you know, and, and.
01:04:44
Speaker
you trick yourself into thinking that's your friend, because you're blind together, you know? And it's like, that's not a friend at all, you know? So, I don't know. And again, I don't mean to sound judgy, but it's just- But also amazing, like those memories are incredible. Yes. Those drinking partners are like so great in your life. I have so many angels like that in New York that like completely changed my life. Couldn't have done New York without them. They were all drinking friends, so.
01:05:18
Speaker
who have been like the artists or writers or like Saul Williams, obviously it was one, but like someone like Saul Williams
Literary Influences and Creativity
01:05:26
Speaker
for you. Who else have they been like over since I've known you? Like since the time that we've left each other.
01:05:32
Speaker
Yeah. Well, okay. So like, yeah. So in university, uh, my like holy trinity was saw Williams, Bob Dylan and Allen Ginsburg. They were like, they were like, but like way to fucking set the bar high, you know, it's like, it's like paralyzing, right? Like to like, I remember, um, when I first read howl and I read it like four times in a night and I was just like, every time I was like,
01:05:58
Speaker
I would finish it and would feel so charged and then I would try to write and I would just feel so deflated you know and I'd just be like why even bother you know like I'll never do this right you know yeah and so I you know over the years
01:06:18
Speaker
have been really cautious around getting to like, this is the guy, you know, um, um, and actually more often than not, I, I'll, I'll very actively like not reread stuff that has had big impact on me. Um, so like Sylvia Plath had a huge, like, uh, had a huge moment. I read the bell jar and I just was like,
01:06:41
Speaker
fucking devastated, you know? And we'll never read it again. Like you couldn't pay to read it again because it's just like, I just remember that summer so vividly because of that book. Because of the book, it was connected completely. That's remarkable though, that
01:07:00
Speaker
a piece like that is a chapter in your life. I mean, have you read it yet? Have you ever read the bell? No. Oh, it's fucking unbelievable. I feel like it's one of those, like, everyone should read it. It's fucking incredible. Right. Um, Sylvia Plath is like, uh, fuck Ted Hughes forever because we would still have Sylvia Plath. It wasn't for him. So like, just, yeah, the story behind that is just tragic. She's incredible. Um,
01:07:29
Speaker
Joan Didion had a major influence on me as I was moving from
01:07:36
Speaker
just poetry to then trying to expand and write essays and write, you know, different kinds of prose and stuff like that. She wrote one novel called Play Does It Lays that was devastating. And then lots of essays, you know, she, I think her big one is called Slicing Towards Bethlehem. And there's actually an essay that I used to go back and read like once a year and then stopped because I was like, this is too, it's just too much.
01:08:06
Speaker
But it's about her moving to Brooklyn. It's called Goodbye to All That. I read it when I left New York. I had read it like six times. I was like, yeah, when I was leaving and it was goodbye. That was my essay for sure. Yeah, it's amazing. Like her her language is just like, yeah, I don't even know. You know, there's some writers who you'll just like, it's so natural. And I'm just like, how do you even
01:08:35
Speaker
How do you choose how to say that? It's funny because this actually plays into the whole thing of why I've always wanted a mentor because I don't really know how to dissect text. I don't really know how to break it down. I know feeling and I know impulse and I'll read something and I'm like,
01:08:55
Speaker
I like that. And then I'll just sort of put it away. And I have no real idea why. You're not like, why do I like that? Yeah. What is what is like the profound moment where I like that? Exactly. Yeah. And so I've never really learned how to do that. And maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. I'm trying to think of like any other like.
01:09:19
Speaker
um i'm blanking uh of course oh oh my god the one this is why uh okay so frank o'heara uh poet from the 60s who he only had two collections but he had this one collection called lunch poems that he it was named because he was he was just writing poems on his lunch break like i think he was a lawyer or something like that and he would he would write poems on his lunch break and then he collected them and they're like
01:09:47
Speaker
the most fucking incredible poetry that's ever been written, you know? He died really young. But yeah, I found Lunch Poems really pretty soon after university and it became like, that remains my favorite collection of poetry ever.
01:10:04
Speaker
Um, but it got kind of ruined for me very recently because of an accident because of things that happened because of that. Um, so we're, uh, Frank and I are out of time out at the moment because I, cause I, you know, I think of him and then I think of them, but I just go, uh, you know, so, um, there's people that you want. Yeah. Like you want those writers to be precious to you. And if you share them, do you like a song that you love? And then if you share it, it's like going to remind you of that person.
01:10:33
Speaker
And that's one of those scary vulnerabilities. My therapist always says, you can't live authentically unless you live softly, but you can't live softly without risking being killed because you have to show your belly. To be truly vulnerable, you have to like, here's my soft bits.
01:10:55
Speaker
And so you have to risk it. And, and that's really fucking scary because in my experience, those people then kill you, you know? And, uh, and so, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then they ruined Frank O'Hara for me, you know, the bastards. Frank O'Hara. I'll be a great poem to all the songs you lost, all the writers you lost. Yeah.
01:11:29
Speaker
We've now got two banger ideas that I'm like, I think we just landed on a million dollar idea here. Where have you been all my life? We just do brainstorm writing sessions now. Fuck though.
01:11:47
Speaker
How about you? Do you have any big names that have come through your life in the last 15 years? The last 50 is so loaded. So sorry for that. Oh, man. I feel like for me, I was obsessed with Tom Robbins in my early 20s, like kind of surrealist modernism, real realism.
01:12:15
Speaker
Still have Hewlett-Packard. Life changing. I only drank tequila for like four years because of the character in that book. That's that's another thing is like books that make you drink what they're drinking. Yes. What was it? Sun Also Rises. Hmm. By Hemingway anyway. And he drinks Per No. Per No. Yes. Yes. And I used to drink that that was like my last
01:12:43
Speaker
Yeah, that was like 24, 25. I was like obsessed with drinking per note because you could only shake it with water. And I was like, Ernest Hemingway. And that has the saddest ending of a book I've ever read about a couple who's like, yeah. But yeah, I've kind of like stopped reading and I want to bring it back. But I usually read an author like all the way through. Like I'll read, I read all of Tom Robbins novels and then I read all of Vonnegut and like kind of go through that. I like that.
01:13:13
Speaker
Franny and Zooey is one of the books, J.D. Salinger that I reread every other year, every year, because I have three brothers and she is the only brothers and it's like this really beautiful kind of, yeah, what it is to be a sister and what it is to be inspired by your brothers, to connect with them, to have like, it felt like a really honest relationship with all these beings in her family. And then like,
01:13:42
Speaker
No, I was just gonna say, Salinger has always been such a challenge for me, not because I don't like him at all, like I adore his writing, but I've always found myself, I took the opposite experience that you had because I always found it
01:13:58
Speaker
Um, I link him with like, I know it's not the same style, but it's like, I always think of like his characters in the same vein as like arrested development family or like succession family. And like, I always found it really triggering because I have very contentious relationships with my family and to read the tension between the siblings was always really activating for me. You know, so I loved, like, I, I think he's fucking incredible. And at the same time too, like.
01:14:27
Speaker
I'm terrified of those books because I just have little like micro meltdowns, you know? Yeah. It's real. It's like, it's like how I feel about writers like that. And same with songwriters is that I'm so envious of is how do you actually experience the world and remember that like in between feeling like you're not just going to the bus, but like the thoughts of you alone on the street going to the bus in the middle of winter, blah, blah, blah, snow falling is like
01:14:56
Speaker
How do you remember every moment and then also write it down? I remember all the moments, but I'm never writing it down. So when I hear a song or read a book, I'm like, that's the thing. That's the feeling. I just don't, that's just not the kind of artist I am. I guess more visual, but yeah, I'm like, so I'm in awe of that. And there's a, there's actually a line in Zoe and Franny, Franny and Zoe, that he talks about that line to be or not to be.
01:15:27
Speaker
And he like goes into it and I like never, I'm like always skipped over that thing, that line. But in this book, he like puts gravity to it and you understand why it's so beautiful. And it's about like the meaning of your bones when you die. Like what do your bones mean? What do you want your bones to mean? And it gave me such like a jolt of like direction. Like, oh, that's what you're working towards.
01:15:54
Speaker
You're working towards what your bones mean at the end of the day. Talk about integrity, if that's the worst part. Yeah. But yeah, I love that. Shit. Yeah. I'm literally like, I'm looking over at my shelf to where that book is. And I'm like, I think I have to go give it another read. You should read it again. Yeah. There's some good bits, for sure.
01:16:20
Speaker
You're fucking incredible. Thank you so much. I'm watching the time, and I've only got my one last question to kind of wrap things up, but before we do, I just, yeah, I find myself in absolute awe of you.
01:16:39
Speaker
I remember you as 15 years ago to who I'm speaking to today. It's so fascinating because it's like at once you are the exact same person and you have that same light and you have that same joy and you're so engaging. And at the same time too, like you've lived this incredible life and you're open and you're honest and it's just, it's really refreshing.
01:17:03
Speaker
And I find myself just like feeling so lucky to have just gotten a chance to talk to you today. And I just, I want to say thank you so much. You know, that's so sweet. Make me feel like, yeah, it's beautiful to like honor your ride and thank you for seeing that. Yeah. I mean, you know, and, and, and. Yeah, it's not always easy, but you're here and that's what counts.
01:17:34
Speaker
Um, the last little thing I always like to leave on, I always try to leave listeners, I don't know if they actually use them or not, but I always like to leave them with like an actionable suggestion for the week. And so I'm curious, what is one thing people could try doing this week to be a better friend either to themselves or to their community? Um, I learned this trick from my best friend who like blew me away of what she does to be a good friend and
01:18:04
Speaker
she writes down important dates or things of note, like anniversaries, like I know, I don't know, any anniversary, any date, if you're like getting a house, if your friend is moving and they're moving that day, or if they're signing a lease or they're like getting the rights to them or their cat, I don't know, they're just like the most random banal things. If you don't have a very good memory, write a reminder
01:18:33
Speaker
And then it seems inauthentic, but it's just like the biggest thing is to like send a text, remembering that thing or remembering that death aversary. That's like huge. Like there's so many things around grief and meeting people that like you could be a better friend on, like saying the name of the people who died out loud. I was like, never a faux pas that is like so welcome all the time. And like,
01:19:02
Speaker
I feel like the way that you show up in a friendship is what you're going to get back. So if you make something really special, or you pick up a treat, or you can write something really banal, or a heart on a note of paper, or a weird drawing that looks like garbage, someone was going to cherish that and put it in their wallet and think of you. It's so easy to do unbelievably beautiful things for your friends.
01:19:31
Speaker
Yeah. I fucking love that. I, I, I'm going to go do that myself. Fuck the listeners. I'm going to go do that. Where, um, do you have anything coming up? Oh my God. I have one last question. Um, did you meet Pedro and what does he smell like in real life?
01:19:57
Speaker
My only interaction with Pedro is I was eating lunch. I mean, I've seen him a million times at the studio, but he knocked me off of my stool when I was eating lunch one day. That was the closest I got to him. With his looks. With his looks. He made me fall. He's incredibly handsome in person.
01:20:19
Speaker
I needed to get that one in there. I'm just like, Oh, fucking Pedro. Um, only met him the once though, he knocked you off. I, what was the, I was just eating lunch outside and he like was going to do something. And I found like a secret back door that I could have my lunch and that was his secret back door apparently. So anyways, I just made all my costumes look so dirty. That's it. So.
01:20:48
Speaker
Fair, fair. We weren't on set all the time. I mean, you did an incredible job. That was a fabulous show. I'm in awe that you played any part in it. Yeah, it was amazing. It was a really beautiful one. Do you have anything coming up? Anything you'd like to plug for the listeners? Where would you like people to find you if you would like to be found?
01:21:12
Speaker
Oh, yeah, sure. You can find me at catdefsky on Instagram. And I'm probably the same on TikTok, although I haven't really been posting on TikTok. I'm a voyeur, as they say. What am I working on? I just finished working on Billy the Kid, season two. And I did Fargo season five last year, aging and doing all the breakdown and die.
01:21:41
Speaker
moving on to another project coming up. So I don't know that's you see me in the final credits on the your Netflix. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Grab a snapshot. Grab a screen share. Share it to friendless. I want to see it. It's amazing. One last time. Just thank you so much. This has been absolutely incredible. I just yeah. It's conversations like this that I like. This is why I
01:22:09
Speaker
we'll do this show until I drop just for the opportunity to have these kinds of conversations. I've so enjoyed it. Oh my gosh. This is like my meat. This is when I read like what you do and like obviously like I love talking to you 15 years ago. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to say yes. But it's like the same, like it's like the like high deep, it's a beautiful opportunity to have that. Yeah. Yeah. You're amazing. Thank you.
01:22:50
Speaker
And that's it. Thank you one more time to Kat for coming on the show. What a pleasure it was to catch up with her. I've been genuinely vibrating ever since chatting, so thank you one more time. And thank you for listening all the way to the end.
01:23:06
Speaker
I have a little bit of a favor to ask you before you go. So I have hired a producer for the show.
Future Developments and Listener Engagement
01:23:15
Speaker
My friend Bob is going to be stepping in and helping me develop some new content for the show and to try and kind of push some new facets of the sort of friendless ethos or ecosystem.
01:23:29
Speaker
And one of the things we're going to be offering is a membership to a sort of a deeper dive service. So there's going to be classes. There's going to be resources. There's going to be exclusive discord access for discussions and Q and A's. And I'm really curious to hear from listeners.
01:23:45
Speaker
If you were to subscribe or buy a membership for friendless, what would be some things that you would be interested in getting? This can be anything. Just throw all your ideas my way. You can get at me at social media on Instagram, TikTok at friendlesspod. You can email me friendlesspod at gmail.com.
01:24:05
Speaker
Let me know all your wild ideas. Just throw them my way. I'll consider them. I'll throw them in the pot. And in about a month or so, we're going to be launching the whole big rebrand and expansion. And so, yeah, just keep your eyes peeled. And if you've got feedback, please send it my way. In the meantime, as always, be sure to sign up for the weekly sub stack where you're getting five distractions every week, as well as a curated poem and a monthly playlist. That is also going to be expanding soon. So do keep your eyes open for that.
01:24:35
Speaker
But that's it for me, so I'm gonna wrap this up here. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope to catch you back here next week. But I'm not gonna worry about that right now, and neither should you, because that is then, and this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you, and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweeties.