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Colossians | Jesus + Nothing = Everything Episode 37
56 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, Danny and Shane discuss what holding on to Christ as the Head looks like. They discuss Church discipline, the difference between going through the motions and sanctification, and what our lives should look like as believers.
Verses discussed
Colossians 2
James 2:19
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Table Talk Discussions'
00:00:29
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Table Talk Discussions. My name is Danny Price. I'm here with Shane Finley. We are jumping into our sermon recap from this last Sunday. So this is going to be episode 37. I just wanted to say really quick, really appreciate, I got a lot of good feedback on the um deconstruction podcast that did with my mom. That was our last podcast. I had a lot of people reach out and just say that it was cool.
00:00:54
Speaker
um and they enjoyed it. So thanks for thanks for that. Thanks for the encouragement. I really have no idea. I think Shane does a little better sometimes, but we both of us, there's i think there's some listeners we have no idea who's listening exactly. So it's um sos always encouraging when you hear someone just say, oh, yeah, by the way, I listened to it. Thanks. So that's fun.
Sermon Recap: 'Jesus Plus Nothing Equals Everything'
00:01:12
Speaker
um We're jumping back into our sermon recap you know rhythm right now. So Shane, so We're still Colossians. um This one was on Jesus plus nothing equals everything, which I thought was a great sermon. I think a lot of people had some positive reaction to it. think people share it on Facebook or mention it on Facebook already, just saying that it'll discern. So that's cool.
00:01:33
Speaker
um Is there anything that didn't make it into the message or anything that you wanted to clarify or revisit from the sermon? Well, I mean, there's definitely few things I felt like need a little bit clarification that were I think we're covering in the questions. But one, the the only thing I really didn't, I really didn't have time to get into verse 19 much, which is kind of more where he talks about, you know, how as the body we we're nourished and knit together through the head. Mm-hmm.
00:02:02
Speaker
um You know, so it's kind of just that whole theology of the church is the body of Christ.
The Church as the Body of Christ
00:02:08
Speaker
um And, you know, that, and if you think about that, i like, I had this whole, like, thought about going off in this direction that I just didn't have time to do of that, you know, we're nourished through the head, just like our body, right? Our our physical body without the head yeah is nothing. like like And correct me if I'm wrong, there again, one of the reasons I would have i wouldve had to do some research, i but I literally think almost every organ
00:02:42
Speaker
they can transplant now, except for the brain. Like it without without the head, your your body just doesn't and exist. Like it does, you're not and you're not the same person without the head, right? Like yeah if they tried to transplant your brain, you wouldn't be the you wouldn't be the same person. so Yeah, brain transplants in humans, I Googled it, are not currently possible and are widely considered science fiction.
00:03:07
Speaker
They see insurmountable hurdles with today's technology. Yeah. So, so, you know, like pretty much the rest of our body, we're kind of, we can get by without, or we can get by with replacing and anything, but the head, you can't.
00:03:21
Speaker
And, you know, so I kind of just was thinking about how, you know, the same thing goes with the church. We can have all these other things we can add to it. aha but or take away.
00:03:32
Speaker
But without Jesus, none of this is matters. It completely falls apart. no Yeah.
Shane's Passionate Preaching
00:03:38
Speaker
so So anyway, I didn't have time to get into it. I didn't even have time to flesh out my thought that much as once once I knew how full the sermon already was. so yeah But i did I did think it was just an interesting concept.
00:03:50
Speaker
No, that was good. Yeah, its you can always it's always fun. I can always tell when you're a little bit more passionate about certain things where you're just like You're riffing. You're like, you know, the sermon will go longer and you're like, you're in the zone. um The second question I had, this is like a little bit more of an overview question of the whole series. It's not just for this sermon, but I'm like, I really haven't asked you how you've how you felt through all this, but...
00:04:15
Speaker
What specifically, like while we've been in Colossians, has been the most convicting or eye-opening for you? I personally have never done a ah deep study in Colossians. I've read through it, obviously, as a Christian, but I've never dive dove into it. And I'm sure you have in the past, potentially.
00:04:31
Speaker
But again, you know going through the sermon, you're probably digging in a lot more than you have recently. Is there anything that's like really stood out to you in all of Colossians so far that you're like, man, this theme keeps coming up, I didn't know i never noticed, or anything like that?
00:04:43
Speaker
Yeah, i mean...
Christ's Supremacy in Colossians
00:04:44
Speaker
I don't think I would have noticed how much the supremacy of Christ um was in Colossians. um You know, just this this constant theme that, you know, we we have distractions that we keep adding to. we um We get focused on other stuff.
00:05:12
Speaker
um You know, like the whole the first week where Paul talks about walking in a manner of worthy. and you know, how that walking in a manner worthy is literally just staying rooted in him, not not this concept of constantly working on trying to fix ourselves, trying harder. Right.
00:05:33
Speaker
And, you know, I probably, i don't know if I noticed how much it it dealt with that. And it also just personally, it's definitely just been an awesome reminder to me um of how much i I put distractions in my life that it pull me away from just my just my focus on who Christ is.
00:05:56
Speaker
That's good. Yeah, it's
Why Christians Don't Follow Jewish Laws Anymore
00:05:57
Speaker
been really good. Again, I'm I've never really like done a deep dive in this, so it's been fun. and It's been really really good. um So in the sermon, and really, and i mean and you know it's coming from Colossians.
00:06:10
Speaker
Again, just in case anyone's trying to figure out where we're at, maybe you're not going to Mountain view and you're confused. So we're in Colossians 2, kind of in the middle Colossians 2. And he talks, Paul's talking to the church, and he talks about all these kinds of asceticism and regulations and all these things and all...
00:06:28
Speaker
all these holidays and drink rules that are being pressed upon the people. Obviously, I mean, back then it was pretty obvious, I think, because you have the Jews and you have the Gentiles and the Jews are trying to tell the Gentiles this and that. And then there's also like the culture around them in yeah col and Colossae.
00:06:47
Speaker
So what kind of asceticism type things are we facing today that we could draw some common ground with. So if, you know, if I'm a Christian, maybe I'm a newer Christian, maybe I'm not a seasoned Christian. I'm coming to Mountain View.
00:07:04
Speaker
Maybe it's not from Mountain you that Maybe that's a bad example because I don't think we we push that very hard. But let's just say it's a different church. I'm going to this church. This church yeah starts telling me things. What would would be those things that this church is telling me you've got to do this and, right? this is This is what you really have to do.
00:07:17
Speaker
Well, I mean, there're there's groups, you know, and there's even, i think, a local one that that pushes that, um you know, we can't eat pork with that we have to hold to Old Testament, you know, kind of, and what's funny to me is it's not all of them, but um a lot of the Old Testament dietary issues. um So now, is there some healthy things to that? Yes. But do we need to do it now? no
00:07:48
Speaker
No. But also, there are some good things, like, you know and i didn't i't I didn't feel like I really had time to really flesh that out. like There's nothing wrong with some of these practices. you know It's just a matter of they shouldn't be held that that's what's the most important thing that we have to be seen as those are things that help us as tools, not as the end all. So like fasting, for example, fasting is something that I think is good and we it's a great practice to have. um
00:08:27
Speaker
But we shouldn't hold it as down to like, well, if you don't fast on this day every week or or you don't fast as a practice in a regular level, then you're just, you're not the same level Christian as someone else.
00:08:43
Speaker
So, you know, so there's a difference, but, um you know, ah for instance, i'm we, you know, we can say avoiding alcohol is a food food law.
00:08:56
Speaker
oh sure Or a food or drink rule. um But, you know, and most Christians... Know that, you know, I would say every almost every Christian, if you talk to them, they kind of have their alcohol rule.
00:09:11
Speaker
Right. yeah um So, you know, whether it be like, hey, I make sure I don't, you know, have have a drink. If I feel like I needed to drink every night, I would say, hey, that's a problem. I don't I don't want to do that
Old Testament Laws and Christian Practice
00:09:23
Speaker
to all the way like, hey, you know what? Just it causes problems. So I abstain from it. um And there's nothing. And so those are rules that people put on themselves.
00:09:33
Speaker
And they're good. It's good to do that. It's good to know yourself. It's good to know what distracts you, what causes problems for your life. But the problem is when someone abstains from alcohol, and they just judge every single person who chooses to have a drink here and there.
00:09:52
Speaker
So no, yeah, that's, that's that's good. um Yeah, in case I did some, it was not intended to be research on this or or not even research. It was more just reading in the Bible and other places. But I'm reading through Acts right now on my own, which I never really, read I've also like never really studied through. It's been, it's been fun. There's a lot of good stuff in Acts, but there's this one point in Acts. And just in case you're wondering, maybe at home, you're thinking, you're like, why don't we follow these Jewish laws and practices anymore? Really, it's because again, of the new covenant, what Jesus did and
00:10:24
Speaker
We are no longer bound to the old law. And the kind of the the the turning point, so to speak, for Peter, who's and one of the one of the disciples, this is after Jesus has died.
Faith and Obedience from the Heart
00:10:35
Speaker
He goes to this guy's house named Cornelius, and he has this vision. He has his vision twice, if I believe, or maybe three times. I have to double check that. twice but it's this it's It's this vision of the sheep coming down with all these animals, and then this voice from heaven, the Lord says,
00:10:50
Speaker
Peter, go kill and eat. And then Peter goes, oh, far be it from me, Lord. Like, I don't eat that stuff. Like, that's, he's like, i I don't eat those those animals. And then what what God says essentially is, do not call unclean what I have made clean.
00:11:02
Speaker
And then they, they you know, they they take that. And from then on, Peter's like, you know what? It's not a problem to eat some of those things. And then they take it a step further and they go, the Gentiles that you've once been calling unclean are no longer unclean. The Lord has made them clean. Kind of, again, reinforcing that belief that the Gentiles have now been grafted into the branch with Israel, and they are also now God's chosen people, which the the New Testament unpacks that in a thousand different ways as we go along, because that's a very common topic. But anyway, just in case you're wondering, like where does it ever say that we can now eat this stuff? If you're curious, that would be that would be the that would be the point.
00:11:38
Speaker
You know that? I mean, that's a whole other thing, but I mean, this might be a topic of worth... doing one time of like why we hold to the moral law of the old Testament, but we don't, the ceremonial and, um, you know, and food and drink laws. So don't know, that might be something worth. No, it is good.
00:11:57
Speaker
I can see how it'd be, it would be confusing for certain people to go, okay, well, we, we don't murder and murder is wrong. So then why don't, and again, there's things that I guess murder is a bad example because Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount mentions that, but there are things that we follow,
00:12:11
Speaker
that Jesus doesn't necessarily mention explicitly. and And Jesus actually upholds the law and says he's come to fulfill the law. So I think that's that's the crux of it. Without getting into it, i would love to go really
Sanctification and Gradual Growth
00:12:23
Speaker
deep into that. But the crux of it is Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law because all these sacrifices, it's allite it's all to atone for sin. And Jesus finally atoned for sin. But there's still morals that Jesus instituted, that God instituted back in the Old Testament.
00:12:36
Speaker
It's just hard to know what those are sometimes, because again, some of these things like you can't wear clothes with mixed fabrics and you can't mix your sheep and the speckled sheep. And there's all these things that you're like, okay, I don't know if I'm ever going to get into that, that people don't necessarily follow anymore. So I'll, I'll think about that. Maybe that could be something to go into as a topic.
00:12:56
Speaker
But anyways, hopefully that clears things up. The last thing with asceticism, I just wanted to mention is just it's It's hard to say this. I want to make sure I'm saying this carefully.
00:13:08
Speaker
Severity to the body and determination and will is not necessarily how I would say it's it is it isn't how the gospel is brought into your life and how you're saved. Yeah.
00:13:21
Speaker
I think a lot of people who are maybe coming from more of that, like pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality or that stoicism mentality that we see in, yeah um you know, the early, like, you know, early, early middle ages. And like, if you deny yourself your, earth your earthly pleasures, if you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, if you do all these good disciplines, you will be a better person and you can eventually become like Jesus. Yeah.
00:13:47
Speaker
And I think a lot of people want to look at Jesus's life and practice all the things that he did without, like Shane said, without going to him. It's like, if I live just like Jesus lived and I fast and I pray and I go out and for 40 days and I do all this stuff, then I'll be closer to God.
00:14:03
Speaker
It's like, you're kind of,
Christ as the Head of the Church and Personal Devotion
00:14:05
Speaker
you're kind of missing the point. yeah If you're not going to God, you're not going to be closer to God. So just again, just to really hammer that in for people, which again, Shane just like hits over and over and over in the sermon is like,
00:14:17
Speaker
you can't go to the shadow. Like, I love that analogy. That analogy was so funny to me. Like, don't, don't go to the shadow, go to the substance. Yeah. Don't yeah yeah veer to your body. sake I love that picture that Paul drew in in that, um,
00:14:31
Speaker
the of the shadow versus the substance that was that was cool no yeah no that that is so that is yeah and we you know in there again we didn't get into that but you know there have been groups that practice like literally beating their bodies um you know lashing slashing um like real severe horrible things to their bodies as a way to somehow think that they're going to achieve these um you know, the spiritual um steps to get closer to God without it being about a devotion to God.
00:15:04
Speaker
So. Hmm. that's good. um The next question I had, um um I'm just going to read it so I don't screw this up. So you apologize. And the sermon kind of towards the end, you apologize to people of Mountain View if they've been told that faith is about rules and about the things that we add to the gospel.
00:15:22
Speaker
And then then I just wanted to say this because you mentioned it briefly and you said, walking with Christ isn't a license to sin. So can you clarify what the role of obedience to the Bible, especially like the New Testament, like the things that we're actually supposed to follow, what obedience to the Bible looks like versus all these adding extra guardrails and special rules that really aren't notated in scripture. And that we're just like stacking things on top of people to burden them. Like kind of like what the Pharisees did. what is What's the difference? Because,
00:15:49
Speaker
I'm trying to like hold this tension of like, there's obedience
Community and Accountability in Faith
00:15:51
Speaker
to the Bible and what God says, and that is going to the head and that is loving Jesus. But there's also the, all that extra stuff. Like you can't do all this ah extra stuff to, to protect yourself from going the full step in sinning, kind of like what the Pharisees were doing. So what, how do we balance that? What's the tension?
00:16:05
Speaker
Yeah. um So, you know, I think that it really comes down to your heart um and, and knowing that it starts with, It starts with the desire for Christ, putting the desire for Christ above all else. Because if if your desire is for Christ above all else, then you're going to start practicing things. you The practices of your life are going to change.
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, real quick, I'm showing an error on my computer. i don't know if that matters to you. What does it say? It says problem saving local backup of audio.
00:16:46
Speaker
Okay, I think you're fine. Just think you're good. It might just be a lost connection for a second. You're fine. All right, just wanted to hit that. um But so really it really starts with what's what's my full intention here? Like, okay, a good example is like, you know, quiet time, Bible reading, um prayer, all that kind of stuff. So we um
00:17:10
Speaker
we have a tendency, it's easy to get caught up in thinking, I've got to read my Bible, got to read my Bible. And it and becomes this rule. Like I literally was talking to someone yesterday that feels this huge guilt if they don't read their Bible every day. They feel like I've i've screwed up. I just, um you know, and i' and God's mad at me. And so it it becomes this, where the reading the Bible becomes kind of the point.
00:17:35
Speaker
But that when you're walking in Christ, you're,
Church Discipline and Membership
00:17:39
Speaker
you know, and we keep that right heart and right attitude, it we're going to read our Bible sometimes because we want to know, and hopefully it's going to be a ah pattern in our life, because we want to know Jesus. we want to We want to understand him. We want to know God's character. We want to know his ways. that and So it's more, a ah it starts with those questions, and i I brought those up in the sermon that We're asking, hey, is this am I glorifying him in my life? Am I building others up? Am I um helping people come to know Jesus through what I do and how I do it?
00:18:14
Speaker
Yeah. Versus a mindset of, you know, I have to do this. I can't do that. um You know, and and I think sometimes when people hear sermons or they read books or whatever,
00:18:25
Speaker
They get this picture, and this is why I apologize, is they kind of get this picture that we are saying like, hey, you need to read your Bible because that's what it's about. you know and And we're not trying to say that. We're trying to say, hey, man, if you want to grow in Christ, you should really get into the God's word. But it becomes where these things are the rules instead of just an obedience, a desire to come after Christ, to follow him. I don't know if that does that make sense. No, it totally does.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah. and I think we'll get into this little a little bit later. But again, trying to think how to like word this when you're becoming sanctified, it's evidence of, of your faith.
00:19:11
Speaker
And as you start to, want and desire different new things because you're like, man, I've, and again, I think we talked about this in previous sermon or previous yeah recaps of like,
00:19:22
Speaker
You should be able to see a ah trend. Again, this is not reminding. This is not how you are saved. You are saved. You are justified. And then because of that, you
Balancing Outreach and Doctrinal Purity
00:19:32
Speaker
start to see this trend of your life changing.
00:19:34
Speaker
And you start to see this trend of your life going, man, I'm desiring things like God's word and communion with him that I've never really been desired for. i've I've never wanted that in the past. But because of God's and the Holy Spirit's power in my life and his regeneration, I'm going, oh my gosh, like I want that now. like or Again, i got and I listened to this podcast not that long ago about this, and I loved it because he this guy was saying all the time when people are saved, they're expecting to have this completely new, like, I drop everything that's not good and all I want is good. And it's like what you should be looking for is you see the slow trend of yourself going, man, my desires, my appetites, my behavior is changing.
00:20:11
Speaker
because I'm now being with Christ more. It's not this instant.
Clarifying the Gospel and Salvation
00:20:15
Speaker
It's not always, sometimes it is for some, for some Christians, they'll drop a lot of things right away. But for some Christians, it's a process. But if you're looking back in your life and you're like I'm not seeing a trend at all towards that stuff, that might be a little bit of a concern. And you would want to, you know, talk about like, you know, to to a pastor about that and pray through that. But if you're seeing a slow trend, however many, you know, it's like the market, it's like the, yeah you look at like the S and P 500, you see a lot of downturns and then you see a trend, hopefully,
00:20:41
Speaker
um yeah i'm I'm hoping for my investments, but you hopefully see a trend upwards towards you know getting better over time. And again, reminding, just again, hammering in in, this is not getting better over time so you can be more saved or more justified. This is not how you are saved. This is just
Holding onto Christ Beyond Behavior Modification
00:20:56
Speaker
your sanctification.
00:20:57
Speaker
I read this quote by John Newton and I really liked it. And it hit me really hard because if you don't know his story, he's got this insane story. So he used to be... a slave trader, and got involved with the East India Trading Company. And so he would literally you know be the one on the boats, like taking slaves from Africa to different places, especially, you know, this is during England's, you know, kind of their peak of their slave trade.
00:21:19
Speaker
And he ended up being a really big abolitionist later on. So he had this huge change of heart. God like really grabbed him. And it was really it's really cool story. And he lived with all this guilt for the rest of his life because of everything that he had done and he had been involved with. He actually wrote the song Amazing Grace. So if you read that or if you read like the lyrics of Amazing Grace, it hits you so much harder knowing that like this is a guy that like literally dealt with people and used them as like commodities like cattle.
00:21:45
Speaker
And just to see like his heart behind it. So it makes
Personal Faith Experiences and Conclusion
00:21:47
Speaker
it makes a whole new difference to Amazing Grace if you never read that. But he has this other quote I liked, which was, And then again, dealing with sanctification. I am not what I ought to be.
00:21:56
Speaker
i am not what I want to be. i am not what I hope to be in another world. But still, I am not what I once used to be. And by the grace of God, I am what I am. And again, just that's just him talking about who he is in Christ now, which is really cool. I love that i love that quote.
00:22:09
Speaker
So that's kind of the end of that. that's I just wanted to add that in there, Shane. Anything else you wanted to add to that? Well, real quick, do you know, i do you remember? I shared a little bit of that story, last not this week, but last week. but i don't know if i know I don't know if I knew that. would Do you share it in all the services, in all three? That's what I'm wondering. I think the third service I was running way over, so I didn't share it. And I i think- Maybe that was- Yeah. So anyway, um so it's funny when started talking about- But you didn't share that, did you share that quote? You didn't share that quote. um I shared a quote from him and right now I cannot think of what it was. Okay, I'm hoping I just didn't like double up on you. I didn't, that's not- no, I mean, it doesn't matter. doesn't matter. it's No, I heard that from someone else recently, so- Yeah, that's a great story. um
00:22:49
Speaker
No, just either I go back to that. And this is where I was kind of wishing I got to flesh out that, that concept of him being the head and holding fast to the head. I just, I think if you have that picture in mind, right, of what Paul's trying to say there, that you're literally, you're holding fat like i i'll do whatever it takes to stay attached to the head right i like i i will i i will lose everything else to hold on to christ and that to me is a difference you know so because when you when you say and you you have this heart in his mind says i want to do whatever it takes to know christ more
00:23:34
Speaker
Well, then they're not rules. They're there's things that you're just eliminating out of your life because they distract you. they they You see them lead to behaviors that you know do not do not please him. the you know Your obedience is coming out of a heart to show love and and to please him, not out of um a mindset of like, oh, I've got another rule I've got to obey. Like...
00:24:04
Speaker
Like when you, um you know, like as a husband, I don't look and go, oh my wife has these rules that I have to come home, have to work, and I've got to have dinner with her. And, you know, I've got to help her around the house. Like,
00:24:22
Speaker
like First of all, she doesn't have those. But I don't look at them as rules. Even doing those things, I don't do them because it's a rule. I do them because I desire my wife. I do them because I desire to to spend time with her. like that I want to know her more. I want to...
00:24:41
Speaker
have her be my best friend. I want to, um you know, and I want to make her happy. Like I want, you know, I, I do dishes not because we have this thing that says Shane, Shane does the dishes on Tuesday and Thursday night. I do dishes a couple of nights week because I know it, it pleases her.
00:24:58
Speaker
So it's, does that make sense? it So it really comes down to this, this, just this desire and saying Christ is, is so I'm nothing without him. so all of this in my life is is simply out of gratitude for that.
00:25:15
Speaker
Well, that makes sense. um Not to push back, but just a question, like a follow-up question on that. Do you think there's times where we have to be obedient to what Jesus says? even if we're not like feeling it and it'll actually help us feel it a little bit more actually as we do that. Absolutely. um So yeah, it's a good point. Yeah. So you're not always going to feel that like, well, and there again, in a relationship, you're not always going feel it, but man, it's only get when you're feeling it, you're you're not going be in that relationship very long, but thankfully Jesus has grace on us and and he doesn't end the relationship when we, when we choose ob be disobedience, but, but no, I mean, definitely like,
00:25:53
Speaker
you know yeah like Do I feel like reading my reading the Bible every day? No. um do In fact, do I get out of habit sometimes and kind of have to force that habit for like sometimes like two weeks before it becomes something I'm interested in?
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes. I mean, honestly, sometimes even longer than that. so So yeah, no they're we're called to obedience even when we don't feel it, even when we don't want it, even when we don't even when we don't see. I mean, a lot of times let's just say, um take lying.
00:26:27
Speaker
We might, in our minds, be able to justify 500 reasons why it would be better to lie in a situation. And telling the truth almost seems stupid.
00:26:39
Speaker
Right? and And yet, we're called to be obedient even when it doesn't make sense in our mind. Yeah. No, that's good. But again, your whole point is that the obedience...
00:26:53
Speaker
is not the end. the It's not the means to an end because Jesus is the end in itself. were Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Okay. Cool. um Next question. a little bit of a doozy. It's a longer question, so sorry. Just hang on, everyone.
00:27:08
Speaker
From what I can read in scripture, it seems like we don't necessarily hold unbelievers to the same standard of biblical ethics and morals in the way that we deal with them. What then is the role of the elders, the shepherds, the church,
00:27:21
Speaker
When people do claim to be a Christian, believe in Jesus and are a believer, they're saved, but they ignore what the Bible says in whole or in part. At what point do you just hope that they would be convicted by their own, by the Holy Spirit?
00:27:36
Speaker
And at what point does certain people in the church step in and say, hey, this is this is ah this is a wrong behavior? And should that be a function of the church? And again, I'm not just saying just moral policing. I guess what I'm saying is like, for example, you have a new believer And they say, I'm all in for Jesus. I repent and believe.
00:27:56
Speaker
theyre They're baptized. And then you notice every single weekend, they're going to the club and partying and getting just trashed every single weekend. At what point do you go, man, I really hope the Holy Spirit just convicts them. And and I hope that the Holy Spirit just puts it on their heart that that's wrong behavior because it says not to be drunk in the Bible.
00:28:13
Speaker
Or at what point does some does somebody step in? Because again, there's this like this tension of, Some people, I think, come into they come into the kingdom not really knowing what's good. And you can definitely tell these people, they don't know 100% what's good and what's wrong because they've lived their entire life as yeah immoral. and they're like, man, I'm so sorry. I'm just going to say these F words. They're just going to spill out of me because my entire life I've been doing this and I'm working on I'm sorry.
00:28:35
Speaker
and then there's other people that know that something is wrong, but they're like, I'm still, I don't care. I'm still choosing to do this cause I kind of still like this old life. And there is a contrast between that. So does a church have any role in that? And should it? Because again, I don't want people coming to Mountain View, like feeling like we have this moral high ground that we're standing on and judging everyone that comes into Mountain View that would call it their church.
00:28:55
Speaker
But is it helpful to be able to call quote unquote, if you're you know a shepherd or the pastors or whatever to call the sheep out, is it helpful to do that sometimes? Like, where's that line? And I just wonder, I'm just wondering how does Mountain View operate with that?
00:29:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, it definitely is helpful. let's Let's start with that. The easy part is it's helpful. That's the basic answer, but um yeah, it is um nuanced. Let's say that. Um,
00:29:23
Speaker
but You know, i mean, there are some churches that they they just opt towards discipline, Always. yeah they That's where they they go towards. what does it look like what does like What would that look like, like church discipline? If if you said that word. All the way to the extreme of saying, hey, you can't have fellowship with us. um okay you know I mean, if you're going to choose to continue in this path and continue not um listening to the and submitting to your leadership, then you know you can't have fellowship.
00:29:53
Speaker
okay um you know i have only... participated in that twice. um At Mountain View or other churches? No, it was actually it was at the churches. And it was just situations where um these two individuals were completely unwilling to stop a behavior that they 100% would look, you know, look, they knew, you know, biblically, they were they were wrong.
00:30:19
Speaker
And it was very harmful behaviors, but they just weren't unwilling to stop. Got it. So so um You know, and there's a difference between being unwilling to stop and really wanting to, but having a hard struggle too, right? Yes, exactly.
00:30:35
Speaker
So, you know, i I think this is why it's so important to be in community. um Because say you're just Joe Blow and you come to church two, three Sundays a month, you sit through a sermon,
00:30:53
Speaker
you you leave, you know, and You know, maybe you're in the word a little bit, maybe you're not, but, you know, there's... um Hey everyone, this is editor Danny coming in afterwards on post-production to edit this. So right at that moment when Shane kind of cut out there, we actually lost complete internet connectivity with him. His internet dropped out or whatever happened. So we lost that part of the recording. We realized the problem and had him refresh. It took him a second to get back into the software and we picked back up by the conversation. But just you guys know, there is a little bit of choppiness. So what you heard there is him dropping out And then I'm going to put right after this little clip here, I'm going to put us just rejoining the conversation kind of back to where we were. So there you go. Sorry about that, guys.
00:31:40
Speaker
All right. jump that Jumping back into it. im Sorry. you So you were right in the middle of that point of talking about someone that's going to church, like community, et cetera, et cetera. I can't remember remember where you left off exactly. Yeah, I'll just start with being in community. And that way you'll.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. So anyway, like when you're in community, you have people around you who can start pointing things out in scripture and calling you out to it and, and kind of coming alongside you in the conviction.
00:32:14
Speaker
And, and Because, yeah, because one, you you need that accountability sometimes. But two, sometimes the spirit does convict us. But when we are too weak to to list to like do what we're supposed to do and we keep failing and we keep failing, sometimes we even harden our own hearts to that conviction and we just give up.
00:32:40
Speaker
You know, and we just keep moving down that road. So having that community of people to do that is ideal. you know, when it comes to like, hey, the shepherds or the elders getting involved in doing that, you know, I believe it needs to be at a level where it's causing obvious harm to the actual body.
00:33:03
Speaker
um You know, people, other people in the body, maybe maybe it's a husband who is cheating on his wife, right? And so it's causing harm to her.
00:33:13
Speaker
um You know, you've got maybe someone one who, Well, actually, and I would say, so I would say this, like, so now you've got someone who maybe is like, say they're a youth leader, but they're going out partying every week.
00:33:26
Speaker
Well, you know, that then we have to step in and and ask, you know, for you to step down and, you know, to not be involved. And um so, so I think, you know, for my, from our perspective, it it we need to see that it's either an outright disobedience,
00:33:46
Speaker
To a point that it's it's very obvious or it's, even if it's not a disobedience, it's just, hey, this is this is just causing harm to other people in the body. So yeah we're going to either ask you to step down from a ministry or, you know, come under the accountability of some of the people, that kind of thing.
00:34:03
Speaker
Got it. Does it, and we talked about this before, does it make it a little bit more nuanced and hard because we don't do membership? So it's hard to know exactly. Like, I mean, obviously if someone's giving consistently and going to the mountain view, I would say that they're probably you know more a member.
00:34:19
Speaker
Does that factor in at all? Cause it's like, I know some churches like make you send a statement of faith and and kind of like submit quote unquote, submit to the elders or or shepherds. Does that factor in with how we operate at all? Or is that it's a little bit different? What do you think?
00:34:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, in fact, just a little bit. I mean, and we're kind of more in the middle. There's churches that have full-on membership. And then I know churches that just don't do anything. Like, they don't have any of that. Like, we have our 101 or 201. And we consider people who have done 201 our partners, we call them.
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah. and And we basically, in that, say that we ask that you submit to the leadership of the church if you're going to be a partner. Okay. um But outside of that, yeah, we we don't have anything. And that does make it a little bit more difficult. But as a church who reaches a lot of people, we kind of recognize that, hey, we might have 600 people, well, adults. We might have like 450 adults on a Sunday morning. But we we would say, hey, only...
00:35:24
Speaker
probably 300 of those are functioning as what we would call functioning as part of the church. They might come to our church, but they're not functioning as part of the church. Yeah, I know that makes sense.
00:35:35
Speaker
What, again, this is not in the question list. I'm just like, now i'm now we're getting into it. I'm just curious. yeah So what is... if you're If you're someone, maybe listening podcast and you're like you're one of those people who's like, man, I don't know if I'm a member. I come to the church every once in a while.
00:35:49
Speaker
I saw this in the back of the bulletin. I listened to the podcast. What's the next step for them? If they're like, I am interested in becoming a member. but what do they What do they do? Yeah, well, we would say one take our one on one class um and then from there we're going to try to find a way to plug you into something um small group foundations class um LDS transitions something some way that you're getting a little bit of community and um community and accountability. um And then second, um and then, you know, eventually we'd like to you to take the 201 class. And that is definitely for people we would call, you are a walking in Christ believer, um seeking to walk in Christ. You don't have everything perfect. You don't have it, you know, but... You're baptized, you've been baptized, your you're seeking to to follow him, you're growing in him. And then with 201, we would say, we do ask you at that point to say, you know, hey, ah yeah are you wanting to partner with MVF Church at a level um where you're saying, yeah, i want I want to be accountable to this this church? Yeah.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. um After that, is there anything after 201 or is it kind of like you're after 201, you're kind of like in you're in the. We're actually in the process of creating a 301, but that's more, we as we assume not everyone will even take that. um Right. That's, that's more for people who want to be leaders.
00:37:19
Speaker
Okay. Got it. Okay. Like leading a ministry or leading like. Yeah. Leading a small group or, you know, different things. That makes sense. sorry yeah Sorry, that kind of drifted from the original topic.
00:37:31
Speaker
Just for people that are listening, i don't know if you're you're all aware of that. But yeah, no, I i think it's difficult. Again, and I think throughout Scripture you see this, where Paul, especially when he's talking to all these different different church leaders, and you know Timothy and Titus and all these people, he seems a lot more concerned with getting heresy and getting...
00:37:55
Speaker
false teaching in the church out as opposed to like grabbing these all these people that are on the streets that are not they would not call themselves believers and like making them feel um inferior and judged. And I think that's, you know unfortunately, that's a lot of what our our church, not our church, Mountain View, but like the capital C church, a lot of people is, you know, would say that that's like a mark of like the churches. Yeah. They just, they hate and they judge all these people and then they don't even take care of the stuff inside. So I'm just asking this question more of the perspective of how do we take care of what's inside, I guess. Cause again, you know, you notice again, with all this, all these verses, the new Testament, it's like guarding the sheep from the wolves. It's not necessarily guarding the sheep from the wolves that are
00:38:40
Speaker
I guess they could be wolves considered, but like on the outside, it's more of like, hey, these these people are trying to lead you away from Jesus. lead you They're trying to introduce, you know, and we see all these different heresies that you introduced in the New Testament that we're still fighting today. But again, it's it's more of that, that I noticed that the shepherds are really guarding the the garden against or elders, I guess we use that term.
00:39:00
Speaker
or in the Bible we use that term, but we use shepherds at Mountain View. So I'm just defaulting to that. But the shepherds, I mean, again, it's they're guarding from heresy. And so I guess we haven't really had a whole lot of quote unquote heresies pop up at Mountain View that I've noticed other than just like what's in the culture.
00:39:14
Speaker
None that have gone past like a small group or, you know, somebody. And usually they're more out of ignorance that, so we haven't had anyone that's like not open to correction. Yeah, no, that makes sense.
00:39:26
Speaker
Okay, but cool. That was, again, that was just a little bit of sidetrack, but I was just curious of how we approached that. Last question that I had, and again, this is actually more of Hannah's question, um that she, her and I were talking about this in the car, and you I was writing some stuff down. This is what kind of what she was saying. So but we when we get down into it, can you outline what the got what the gospel is, and what must you do to be saved? Because After that, knowing knowing that, how do we hold on to Christ? So we have, what is the gospel?
00:39:57
Speaker
how do we like how How are we saved? what What happens? And then after that, how do how do we practically hold on to Christ? Because, and I put down here, James 2.19, which essentially just says, I'll read it just out loud. It says,
00:40:10
Speaker
you believe that God is one, you do well, but even the demons believe and shudder. So it's not enough to just say, oh well there is a God and yeah, he's one. he you know, God is one, whatever.
00:40:21
Speaker
Cause he's saying even the demons believe that. So how do we practically see, know go go go from the gospel to being saved to then holding onto the head of Jesus? How does that, how does that process work in a Christian's life?
00:40:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's, um, sorry, that's all, that's a big, no, that's okay. Um, You know, I mean, the gospel in a nutshell is basically that the good news that even though we have been separated from God by our sin, Jesus Christ came and lived his life on this earth in human flesh hum to die for our sins and rise again and have victory. And so that through repentance and and faith in him, we, and and him alone,
00:41:05
Speaker
Yeah, we're we're forgiven. And we um can walk with him in this life and for eternity through him. So, you know, that to me, you know, okay, there's the basic of the gospel.
00:41:19
Speaker
i don't know anything you want to add to that as far as No, I mean, that was that was good. I wasn't looking for like the the yeah minute version of that. Yeah. Yeah. yeah um But yeah, and this is where we get the confusion, right? I mean, people hear that.
00:41:37
Speaker
They go to a church, they go to a revival or whatever. they They go forward, they say a prayer, you know, and they they're walk around the rest their life going, cool, I'm saved. I said that prayer, you know. Doesn't matter what I do, doesn't matter how I treat people.
00:41:52
Speaker
um But da the problem is, if that's the case, they're missing that word repentance, right? um And they're missing the word faith. they they there were our Our culture ends up hearing like, well, if you believe in Jesus Christ, and what they take that to mean is, if you believe in Jesus Christ, like you believe Abraham Lincoln was a president, or you believe the earth is round, then you're fine.
00:42:24
Speaker
And That's not what the Bible means. And that's why, you know like Peter, when he's preaching in Acts Pentecost, he says, you need to repent as well.
00:42:36
Speaker
yeah um And there's there's very clearly, if you go through the book of Acts, the when people are giving getting saved, um repentance is a key part of that. It's a turning from...
00:42:52
Speaker
and we're going to talk about this this week, a turning from my will, my way to his will, his ways. yeah And, you know, that's why James says, Hey, even the, even the demons believe this stuff, like who cares that you believe it, but yeah. Or just acknowledge. Yeah. Like, yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah. there There should be fruit in your life because you are, turning you're turning from one way of life and submitting to another way of life. So, you know, and then, and like you said, that, that and for most of us is going to be gradual, but,
00:43:26
Speaker
You know, most of us have been saved very long. We've all heard the stories and known the people who, man, they were just saved from an addiction overnight. You know, there are those things. But outside of that, even those people who were saved from an addiction overnight, I actually had this conversation with someone yesterday.
00:43:41
Speaker
you know, experienced huge radical change in the first couple months of their life. But now they've got, the the onion has been peeled back, right? And they've got all these things that are like, honestly, these are the deeper, darker issues.
00:43:55
Speaker
And the other stuff, the other things were just, um were symptoms of that, of this problem. And this, these deeper, darker things, these are the things that are harder to turn over to Jesus, to trust him in. So,
00:44:10
Speaker
So even when God gives people those big things, usually it's just, it's kind of like God just giving them something so they have some faith to see that he does work and it gives them strength to work on the rest of this stuff.
00:44:22
Speaker
um on But so it really is, it's a matter of of not just believing something about Jesus, but but truly but repenting and in faith.
00:44:37
Speaker
Faith is not They're again just saying, oh, I – okay. If I – I don't know how my car works, right? Yeah. And if I just stand around and never drive my car but I always know, i always say, well, know that car. If I put the key in it and turn it, it will go somewhere.
00:44:54
Speaker
yeah That's not really putting faith in my car. That's giving you a head knowledge that I get that this happens. Yeah. But the faith comes when I'm like, hey, I need to go somewhere. So I'm going get in my car and to turn it on and drive it I don't know how it works. I don't know. You know, I mean, obviously, that's very simplistic, you know, but but the idea that you've got to you've got to take a step.
00:45:17
Speaker
um You know, we always, I think a lot of us love, if you especially if you grew my age, that Indiana Jones, it's the it's the third movie. yeah I can't remember what it is. I think it's the Holy Grail he's trying to get to. But to get to it, he's got to walk across this chasm that, you know, there's nothing there. And it's that I, and he finally clicks like, Oh, I've got to, I've actually got to have faith. I've got to take these steps of faith. And, uh, and it's a great picture because that's what it means. And so when we know, how do we know what we're, then we're saved is, yeah, there should be some fruit and, and that fruit should come out of repentance and faith.
00:45:57
Speaker
Right. Um, And then would you say practically holding on to the head, holding on to Jesus is kind you've been talking about, just doing what he says or clinging to him for salvation? Again, this is going into Hannah. She's like, I think I'm holding on to the head. I want to be holding on to the head, to Christ. But she's like, I don't know.
00:46:20
Speaker
like what like what she's And i and i'm like I'm trying to like wrap my mind around it with her we like we were talking through this, but she's like, what does it mean exactly to hold on to the head and to Jesus alone? Because, again, i don't think Canada is necessarily struggling with heresies. And I think a lot of people, they might be swayed a little bit here to and fro, but they're like – it's a lot more coming out of – not ignorance, but just like a not knowing – Like, what am i what am I supposed to do here?
00:46:45
Speaker
And like if you told me what what I was supposed to do, I'll probably try to do that. And i'll you know yeah i'll make an effort I'll make an effort towards that. I just don't know exactly what that looks like. And so we were talking back and forth. Do you have anything you want to add to that? I'm just like, what does it mean to hold on to the head? Like, I don't want to over practicalize it, but in a practical sense, what would that mean?
00:47:03
Speaker
I mean, I definitely think obedience is part of it. um But... it
00:47:10
Speaker
you know all these things are a part of it. Reading your Bible, prayer, obedience, being a part of the body of Christ, all like being you know being involved with the church. All these things are are things that show it.
00:47:24
Speaker
ahha But the the main, I really do think, and it really comes down to something that you'll never see on the outside. um that That you just have to know it Fully on the inside. And I know I go back to this a lot, but I go back to personal relationship. Like
00:47:47
Speaker
you can have a man who never cheats on his wife. but that does not mean he's a one woman man. Does that make sense? yep That does not mean he has this desire to keep his, his full focus on and attention towards his wife. So you could go, Oh, well he's obviously just cherishes his wife based on, you know, he goes home every night. He never, he never sleep cheats on her. He never, you know, um, whatever, but in the, in his heart, he knows if his heart is for his wife, right?
00:48:20
Speaker
um You know, and and and I think that's, you know, so so those other things, sure. Now, at the same time, can you have a guy who cheats on his wife tell you, oh, no, I am so devoted to my wife? No. You're like, obviously, there's no fruit in your life to show what you're saying. Yeah, that's you're saying. from yeah But for the person who...
00:48:44
Speaker
who is showing these outward things, you can sometimes do the outward things, but not have a heart for the person or and for Christ. you know and um you know there's i'll just you know Real practically, there's times you know, I'll like start questioning different things in the Bible or like the way it's, you know, I'm like, was that really the way that, you know, I'm like, I don't get it, you know, or um I'm confused. by it I question the way God is working times. And so I'll, I'll, I'll start thinking sometimes like, well, does that mean I question God? Like, I don't believe in God. Like I literally will get those voices in my head. Like, you know,
00:49:23
Speaker
and But I always come back to, no, it doesn't. Yeah, sure, i I don't get fully the Bible sometimes. I don't understand how God works sometimes. those But man, i just i still know in my heart that then I'm his. yeah And I want...
00:49:41
Speaker
and and i and i want I want him to be glorified in my life, even when I really am bad at it. So, you know, i don't know if that makes sense. No, that totally makes sense. That really helps. Yeah, I think i love what you said about how you can technically be doing all the right things and there's no heart behind it.
00:50:01
Speaker
I think that but that resonates with a lot of people. I think the the heart behind it is... the most important part the relationship with Christ is the most important part. And then everything comes from that.
00:50:11
Speaker
But just because you have good behavior doesn't always mean that you're surrendering to him. It just might mean is that you're really good at but yeah modification behavior modification, which again, if you haven't caught on by what we've been saying, not just this week, but past weeks, behavior modification is a pretty poor substitute for an actual relationship with Jesus because you're,
00:50:32
Speaker
you're trying to show the fruit without being connected to the vine and you're, you're going to, without ah being connected to the source, you're going to fizzle and die. And it's, it's not even really coming from the source in itself. So anyways, good stuff. Um, I'm going to, I think we're going to end it. I don't have any more questions. Um, anything else you wanted to just to finish up with or now, now looking forward to comments, not really, looking forward to this coming Sunday. Um, uh, we're talking about having a, uh,
00:51:02
Speaker
building, whose kingdom are you building? Christ's kingdom or your kingdom? Interesting. umllll That'll be good. Again, reminding, if you're listening sermon or going into it, thinking about questions, and again, reminding you there's no question too small or too large, I guess, that we wouldn't want to tackle.
00:51:19
Speaker
I still have one more topic that we're um we're we're working on for one of our one-off episodes. If you guys have anything else, I know we did the deconstruction one. there's anything that's kind of in that thread that's a little bit bigger to tackle that you wanted to ask, um let me know.
00:51:32
Speaker
I know a couple of you guys have reached out. I really appreciate that. Just asking questions. I really love it. It helps us kind of have a direction for where this thing goes. So I appreciate you all. Thanks for listening. All that other stuff, you know, pass this your friends, yada, yada.
00:51:45
Speaker
And we'll see you guys again next week. Bye-bye. All Have good week.