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What is Wisdom? Episode 44
35 Plays20 days ago
In this episode Danny and Shane outline Proverbs and go over questions from listeners regarding wisdom, proverbs, and what that means for us to follow God.
Bible References: Proverbs 1 and 2, Proverbs 22, Deuteronomy 7:9
Click Here to listen to sermon from MVF: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-beginning-of-wisdom/id1667700510?i=1000760983538
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 44 and New Series
00:00:32
Danny Price
hey everybody, welcome to episode 44 of Table Talk Discussion Podcast. I'm really excited. We're starting a new series. So I'm here with Pastor Shane and we're going to be going into Proverbs.
00:00:43
Danny Price
um Shane, you wanted to set up the series a little bit. Just give us a little bit of an introduction of what this is. What we are we going over the whole book? Are we just doing certain parts? What is this? How long is this going to last for? Give us a little bit of a just quick description.
00:00:55
Shane
Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, it's definitely not the whole book. Uh, we'd be in it for a while. Um, but it is, um, basically just different topics that the Proverbs cover.
00:01:07
Shane
Um, and we're not even covering even close to all the topics that they cover, but, um, the idea of just kind of some of the key things that we do deal with, um, pretty regularly and that there's a lot of Proverbs on.
00:01:13
Danny Price
Yeah. OK.
00:01:20
Shane
So, um, You know, this week was just setting up what is wisdom, like how how do we define it? How do we how do we actually start? the foundation of wisdom in our life and, and, uh, try to put those things into practice, but then we'll start talking about what those things
Promises vs Principles in Proverbs
00:01:39
Shane
are.
00:01:39
Shane
So, um, we have seven different topics, uh, that it's work, uh, choices or decisions, your time relationships. Um, and, uh, I'm not remembering all of them, but, um, yeah.
00:01:53
Danny Price
Okay. Okay.
00:01:54
Shane
So, um, So I'm excited about it It's a little bit different. We haven't done, it's almost kind of like a topical series, you know, but, but I wanted to really do my best to try to really have found Proverbs be the foundation of it. so
00:02:10
Danny Price
Yeah, no, I love i love it. No, and I think we'll get into this, but Proverbs is just such an interesting book in its own way. So it's it's one of those things where you can't, i mean, you could totally teach it verse by verse.
00:02:21
Danny Price
It just might be a little bit different because of the way it's going to pull you in different directions. I mean, there's a thousand topics in one chapter. So, um but we'll talk about that.
00:02:27
Shane
Yeah. yeah
00:02:30
Danny Price
So that's kind of, that kind of leads me to my first question. um And you kind of set this up in the sermon. I just wanted you to maybe kind of reiterate this a little bit. The difference between ah a promise and a principle because a lot of people will take proverbs and they'll be like, well, see, it says here, if I do this, then i get this almost like a one for one math equation.
00:02:50
Danny Price
I, I add one plus one and I, and I, I'm going to get two every time. If I do this and I do this, I will always see this result. And you were saying that that's not really the case. This is more of a principle for life.
00:03:01
Danny Price
A lot of these proverbs are principles.
00:03:01
Shane
Yeah,
00:03:02
Danny Price
You want to just kind of spin on that for a while. Just, um, just kind of explain what the difference is.
00:03:05
Shane
yeah so So the promise promises in scripture there, and there's actually a couple different ways you can even, that we're supposed to look at promises is there are some promises that are like for the people group, right.
00:03:20
Shane
For like most of of the old Testament for the Jews, um you know, um for believers, that of thing.
00:03:21
Danny Price
yeah
00:03:24
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:03:27
Shane
And then there are some promises that are, you know, for the individual. If you, as an individual do this, you know, there, you know, there's the promise of salvation, right? There's the promise of sanctification.
00:03:39
Shane
There's the promise, you know, ah ah these are, these are promises, but, um and those are things we would say, yeah, we, we can absolutely rely on those things.
00:03:40
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:03:50
Shane
um But the principles um are more, yes, they are a way of life. We should, we should seek out um and, and,
00:04:01
Shane
generally, if you seek those things out, generally that the, it will be true. What it, what it's saying. So it's, you know, it's not that, Hey, for sure all the way across the line, if you did this, it will always be this.
00:04:19
Shane
Now I do believe that's only though, because we live in a broken world, right? We, we live in a sinful world, like
Proverbs as Wisdom Literature
00:04:26
Danny Price
Right.
00:04:26
Shane
in the perfect world, right?
00:04:28
Shane
that if it wasn't broken and we were, you know, garden of Eden still, you know, then, then we living by the wisdom of God, we would receive all, these are the things that happen out of those, out of those, the promises of that.
00:04:34
Danny Price
yeah
00:04:43
Shane
So, um, yeah, so it's because of, we live in a broken system and broken world that, that it's not going to be true every single time across the board.
00:04:43
Danny Price
yeah
00:04:53
Danny Price
Right. Well, that makes sense. And I think it's hard, you know, if you're looking at the Bible with the same lens, you know all the different literature. And I think, you know, Proverbs kind of falls in with Psalms.
00:05:06
Danny Price
Um, or maybe is it Psalms? i think it is some of the Psalms, uh, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, it's the wisdom literature.
00:05:08
Shane
Yeah, Psalms.
00:05:13
Danny Price
It's not necessarily like, it's not prophetic and it's also not historical.
00:05:13
Shane
Yes.
00:05:17
Danny Price
Like it's, this is, you know, mostly Solomon writing this stuff down.
00:05:21
Shane
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:05:22
Danny Price
Um, and David, I think wrote some of this, you know, obviously a lot of the Psalms and, um, it's, It's not very Western, I guess, I guess would be the way to say that, you know, in our minds, a lot of us, you know, I think myself included want to read the Bible, um, in the, in the entirety and just go, well, if I just tell me what to do and I'll just do that. And then I get my result and that's what I want.
00:05:40
Danny Price
Um, and not, not looking at it for what it is and the cultural, um, background of how it was written and who was written to, like you said, you know, some of these things, they're not promises, um, principles, um,
00:05:51
Danny Price
which was It was helpful just to hear that. i just wanted you to explain that more. So that but that was perfect. Is there anything else you wanted to add before we move to the next question?
00:05:55
Shane
Yeah.
00:05:57
Danny Price
That was just kind of the...
00:05:58
Shane
No, I think so. I think that's good.
00:06:00
Danny Price
to set up the guidelines. um I'm actually gonna move questions around a little bit from what I have written down.
00:06:05
Shane
right.
00:06:05
Danny Price
um Because this is that this one works really well.
00:06:05
Shane
No problem.
00:06:07
Danny Price
So if the prove the proverbs are not laws per se or promises, but they're more like but they're more like guidelines or principles that are generally true, then is it sinful to break them or not live by them?
00:06:19
Danny Price
um Can they even be broken in the sense that laws can be broken? And is this the, font you know hold on, let me read this right, right? This is again, not my question. Is following the Proverbs an obedience or moral issue? That question's from Zach.
00:06:30
Danny Price
So that's a lot of questions together, but you kind of get the gist of what he's saying. Is it wrong?
00:06:33
Shane
Yeah.
00:06:34
Danny Price
Is it sin to not follow what the Proverbs say? is it or is it to be treated as like law
00:06:40
Shane
Yeah, I would say it's it's not sin per se. Like each individual proverb, you know, if you look at each one and break it down, like, hey, if I don't do that, is it a sin?
00:06:51
Shane
No, it shouldn't be looked at the way the law does. However, it does carry a moral weight. so And the moral weight would kind of go back to a little bit what do I tried cover on Sunday of
00:06:58
Danny Price
Hmm. Okay.
00:07:06
Shane
you know, why, why are you, are you rejecting the wisdom? You know, if, if you're rejecting the wisdom, well, now you've got to look at your, your, you have a heart that's refusing God's wisdom. Um, going have to deal with that. And what, you know, why would you refuse God, God's wisdom? So, you know, now you're looking at i that, it that is a sin to refuse it, but it's different than saying, Hey, I, I, I didn't necessarily live up to that. Um,
00:07:34
Shane
You know, I'm not meeting that, um but it's not. So if if that's where you're at, it's not the same as breaking the law, um you know, the the actual god's God's law. So um I actually looked up, but i don't know where this quote came from, but I thought it was a good way of saying it. um That Proverbs aren't laws to be broken, but wisdom to be embraced. And rejecting that wisdom often reveals sin beneath the surface.
00:08:02
Danny Price
h
00:08:03
Shane
And I like that. I just thought that was a good quote.
00:08:05
Danny Price
That is a good quote. Who is that? Or do you remember?
00:08:07
Shane
i don't I don't know. um i got it. I was looking through um i was looking through Gospel Coalition's um website, um searching some stuff on this, and I and i saw it but i it.
00:08:11
Danny Price
Anonymous.
00:08:21
Shane
And it probably wasn't anonymous. I was just taking
Practical Advice from Proverbs
00:08:23
Shane
notes. I was just writing some like copying some notes over to my stuff, and and ah and i just it probably had somebody's name next to it or was it in an article, but I just didn't take the time because I wasn't writing a book.
00:08:36
Danny Price
Yeah. No, that and and not that makes systemic sense. Yeah, you're not putting in the bibliography or whatever. um Yeah, and I think, i mean, that that quote was exactly what I was going to just touch on, is if you are looking at a proverb and then going, no I don't think so.
00:08:42
Shane
Yeah.
00:08:51
Danny Price
Like, I'm going to do something differently. Yeah. You might, again, be within the bounds of not not sitting, but I would be curious as to what your reasoning behind that is because that probably would reveal like a bigger problem.
00:09:00
Shane
the
00:09:02
Danny Price
um
00:09:02
Shane
Yeah.
00:09:03
Danny Price
I think, for example, like it talks about... I'm pretty sure it does. Let me Google this really quick. but Isn't there a couple of proverbs about going into debt?
00:09:10
Shane
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:12
Danny Price
Hold on.
00:09:13
Shane
Well, and while you're doing that, can I make, you while you're doing that, can I make a couple comments?
00:09:13
Danny Price
Sorry for my keyboard clacking.
00:09:17
Shane
So...
00:09:18
Danny Price
Yeah, go ahead.
00:09:19
Shane
so So, i you know, God's law, let's just say thou shalt not commit adultery, right? Or or lying.
00:09:27
Danny Price
on
00:09:27
Shane
I believe you have, we have that written on our hearts, even even not knowing Christ, right?
00:09:35
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:09:35
Shane
that we we we We know that moral law. But like, let's use debt for an example.
00:09:41
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:09:41
Shane
you might not get that debt is really a bad thing until you're kind of taught and you start living under it and you live under it.
00:09:50
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:09:51
Shane
You start to go, Oh my gosh. Like you, you, you get the, you get the ramifications of it, but right away you might not, not see it as a bad thing.
00:09:53
Danny Price
Yep.
00:10:02
Danny Price
Totally.
00:10:03
Shane
So.
00:10:04
Danny Price
No, that makes sense. The verse I was looking, there's a bunch, but the the one i was thinking of was, um it's so it's Proverbs 22, 26, and 27. It says, not one says b not one of those who gives pledges, who puts up security for debts. If you have nothing with which to pay, why should your bed be taken from under you?
00:10:20
Danny Price
um you know Obviously implying that like you're going to lose you know your house or lose your household or lose your ability to have a bed if you go into debt.
00:10:24
Shane
Thank you.
00:10:27
Danny Price
And I would tell someone, like you know you you go for example, ah has a mortgage. I don't necessarily think that that's a sin. I think it's, again, pointing out a... you know a a wisdom, a principle of, hey, if you go into debt, there's a chance you're going to lose things, especially if you have nothing for which to pay.
00:10:45
Danny Price
But I wouldn't necessarily say to each person, cause that you would be calling everyone a sinner for the most part, you know, hey, if you have a mortgage or you go into debt in any kind of way, that's a sin. However, i think that is something that is definitely abused where people do go into debt unneededly or are struggling financially. And they, you know, they could definitely resonate with that proverb and they go, yeah, that's no, that's true. That's ah that that's a good principle to live by. especially when you're you've been underneath debt for so long and you realize like the weight on you.
00:11:11
Danny Price
i just wanted to make I just wanted to throw that in there because I was just trying to think of an example of something that's not necessarily a sin, but is definitely a good like good principle to live by.
00:11:19
Shane
Yeah.
00:11:20
Danny Price
All right.
The Fear of the Lord in Proverbs
00:11:21
Danny Price
um This kind of ties into broader, just you were beginning of the sermon. And for those of you who didn't listen again, please go back. It's on you know all the podcasts, you know on on the website, on YouTube. Listen to the sermon. But in Proverbs 1, you talked about the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. And you kind of set that up as in God gets to decide, you know, what what is what is wisdom and us having the fear of him is the beginning of knowledge.
00:11:46
Danny Price
So that kind of brings us a a broader question. Who gets to say what the right things about God are and what does the Bible have to say about that specifically? If you just want to just take that however you want to, however you want to, whatever direction.
00:11:59
Shane
Well, as far as who gets to say what the right things about God are, i would say um Jesus and the apostles. yeah That's where it has to start. um And, you know, and and God from the Old Testament in general, just what everything.
00:12:08
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:12:12
Danny Price
Right. Yeah, yeah.
00:12:14
Shane
um So, You know, now, obviously now then then there's all that realm of interpretation within that, right? We would, within biblical Christianity, there's a lot of interpretation about who God, what, who God is and, um, what, what the right belief about God is, but there are boundaries even within that interpretation and that are outside of that. And so, um, forever for who gets to decide who God is, um you know,
00:12:47
Shane
the Some of that goes back into, we talked to couple months about it, like the whole idea of like the Wesleyan quadrilateral, where you you look at historic Christianity, you look at God's word, you know, and ensure there's a little bit of culture you might take into it in your own um experience, but majority...
00:12:53
Danny Price
Right, yeah.
00:13:06
Shane
you know we We have to trust that the Holy Spirit has been involved in the um historic Christianity and and kept that boundary of who God is. So so I would say, you know as long as it's an interpretation of Scripture, um then that's who what decides who God is. Outside of that, then I don't think it should be even be entertained.
00:13:30
Danny Price
Right. No, I think that makes sense. And I think, I mean, you know, we can go down whole rabbit trail on this, but that's, we get into so many problems when we're the ones deciding about who God is and we don't, we don't let him describe himself or say who he is. I think we get into a lot of issues. Um,
00:13:48
Danny Price
Do you, and but before we move on, that was just again, just a really more of a clarifying question. Do you want to talk a little bit more about just the fear of the Lord? Did you come up with anything when you were doing any research? I know you spent, you didn't spend a ton of time on it, but you, you did go over that, you know, because you talked about how the first six verses kind of line up all this stuff about Proverbs. And then it like has that like break in the passage. And it says that statement, the fear of the Lord is beginning of knowledge, fools despise wisdom and instruction. Is there anything else you want to add to that before we move on? Or you feel like you covered that in the sermon?
00:14:16
Shane
yeah I mean, I feel like I covered most of it. to um Tanya actually pointed out you know, that, that she even wondered if maybe we, we, we focus a little too much on the whole, like, you know, just the awe versus no flat out fear. Like you should be afraid.
00:14:35
Shane
um um And, and I, and I guess I would agree with that at some level, like,
00:14:38
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:14:42
Shane
you know, God doesn't want you to just walk around in a constant state of trembling that he's just out to punish you. But at the same time, you know, kind of like the whole wait till your father gets home mindset of a kid, you know, um, you do want, ah he does want you to fear him that way. Like it's not just all, you know, um,
00:15:07
Shane
You know, like like Sam is at an age where he's kind of in awe of you, right? Like the things that you can do are blow his mind.
00:15:13
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:15:16
Shane
He looks up to, I want to be like dad, buth blah, blah, blah, right? And hopefully right now he doesn't hasn't ever done much where you really want him to flat out fear you.
00:15:20
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:15:27
Shane
But there might come some times where he starts to have a rebel, like a truly rebellious heart.
00:15:28
Danny Price
Sure.
00:15:32
Shane
Not like the, you know, I'm just going to test boundaries things that he does now where he truly were.
00:15:35
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:15:39
Shane
No, yeah a flat out fear of you would be a good thing, you know, and, um,
00:15:43
Danny Price
Totally, totally.
00:15:45
Shane
You know, so, and I think there is, ah so there definitely is that aspect as well, you know, that we need to understand. and And, you know, if we don't flat out fear God, um then we're probably not really having a very,
00:15:57
Shane
um we're probably not seeing eternity as actual reality.
00:16:04
Danny Price
Hmm. Yeah. that's That's good. i It's so hard because there's so many words and ways that people describe God in the Bible. And i mean, you see, i mean, you even see Hagar, um like have her, like she has her own name for God, um which it's it's all, it's slipping me all of a sudden. I had it in my head a second ago and it's slipping me the name she has for God. But she, I mean, different people describe God different ways. And like you said, you know, God could be friend, you know, provider, father, Lord, all that stuff.
00:16:34
Danny Price
I do think, like you said, there is this element of, we, you know, in ah in an attempt to personalize God and make him relatable, we do lose sometimes that, that fear, that trembling, that, oh my goodness, you will, are you are beyond my mind of what I can comprehend.
00:16:49
Shane
Yeah.
00:16:51
Danny Price
And I, i like, I fall on my face before you. And you see this, you all throughout the, the, the Bible, i mean, people just come in in contact with angels, just lose their minds and just like fall down and mean are terrified.
00:17:02
Shane
yeah
00:17:02
Danny Price
um how much more so with God. And again, I'm not saying that we should be so afraid of God that we're, oh my gosh, God's going to smite me the second I do something wrong and step out of line. and And not like, I'm not saying live like that, but just to have this respect and like grandeur and appreciation for him in that way, you should be, ah yeah, uncomfortable because it's something that is so far beyond your grasp and something that is so much bigger than you. i mean, God is so much you know more than you are and that's okay.
00:17:30
Danny Price
um But it's good to have that healthy, the healthy fear. and i think that's good. i don't think there's anything wrong with that.
00:17:34
Shane
Yep.
00:17:35
Danny Price
So I, I can see where Tanya would say that I didn't, I didn't have any issue with that, but I, you know, I, I appreciate her saying that because it definitely, you know, it's good to remind ourselves of that. Um,
00:17:43
Shane
Yeah.
00:17:45
Danny Price
I will say too, though, with that, don't be so afraid of God that you're not going to come to him and talk to him and relate to him in a personal, because God has made himself personal.
00:17:50
Shane
Yeah.
00:17:52
Danny Price
And I think it was, it was really cool. You know Martin Luther, you know, he used to be an altar boy, right? You know, before the Reformation. And he was so afraid of God, like smiting him down of what God would do to him, that he would, when he would, you know get communion ready, he would literally spill the communion wine as he was like trying to put it down on the table because he was, his hands were trembling so bad and he was so afraid.
00:18:15
Danny Price
And just like the the change in his attitude, you know, because he was one of the founders of the Reformation of realizing that, hey, God is not
00:18:21
Shane
Yeah.
00:18:22
Danny Price
angry with you in that sense. Like God, like God sees you as his child, you know, as long as you're, you know, you're a believer and you, you, you have that coercion with Jesus and it's okay to be, you know, there's that tension you can hold of like, I'm terrified of who God is and so fearful of him in a good way, but I'm not so terrified that I don't realize how personal and how loving he is. Like you can't separate those two things. It's hard for us just to hold both of those intention though, because we tend to lean one side or the other side.
00:18:47
Shane
yeah
00:18:48
Danny Price
So yeah.
00:18:50
Danny Price
Anyways, all right. um Moving on. Sorry. we're We have a lot of questions, guys. You're going to have to hang with us. And they're all in my notes app, and they're all mismatched, and different people send in different questions. And so you're going to get fried brain Danny because it's the end of the workday, and I'm tired.
00:19:05
Danny Price
um
00:19:05
Shane
you.
00:19:07
Danny Price
Number four. is the book of and this this This one and question two were from Zach, so thanks for sending those in, Zach. Question four, is the book of Proverbs messianic in any way? In other words, do we see Jesus or typology of Jesus in any way? If so, how?
00:19:23
Shane
um I guess I would say it's not messianic in the way we typically think of. We're, you know, like we have in historical accounts, places like, you know, where we have Mikkelz...
00:19:37
Shane
Why am I getting in a blank? Give me his name. Mikkelzadek. Mikkelzadek.
00:19:41
Danny Price
Melchizedek?
00:19:42
Shane
Yeah, Mikkelzadek. Mikkelzadek.
00:19:44
Danny Price
Whatever. it's one It's one of those.
00:19:45
Shane
but don
00:19:46
Danny Price
Yes.
00:19:48
Shane
It's late. Okay. um Anyway, um well, we have Melchizedek who um is a typology of Jesus. You know, he, he um you know, is a Christophany, you know, so we have that.
00:19:57
Danny Price
yes
00:20:01
Shane
And then we have prophet prophetic books that, you know, we we have all these prophecies that Jesus actually fulfilled, right, from the Old Testament. So we have those that are more of a very specific typology of ah Christ.
00:20:16
Shane
um and are messianic in that way.
00:20:16
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:20:18
Shane
However, I would still say the Proverbs points to Jesus, um not as definitely not as directly, but in in that, you know, it it gives us wisdom that Jesus lived out.
00:20:31
Shane
You know, it Jesus actually lived out these wisdom points. points and quotes. He taught very much in line with them, um different things that he said.
00:20:42
Shane
he They weren't direct quotes of Proverbs or anything, but um but they were the same. Like, for instance, on Proverbs 16, 18, pride goes before destruction.
00:20:53
Shane
Jesus said in Luke 14, 11, everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, right?
00:20:53
Danny Price
the
00:20:59
Shane
So so you yeah he taught, he didn't teach anything that was contradictory.
00:20:59
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:21:04
Shane
to it um And then finally, um you know, kind of like I said, and I think Zach asked this a little bit.
00:21:04
Danny Price
Right.
00:21:12
Shane
I mean, I think Zach's next question was, you know, something along the lines of um how Christ is the fulfillment of the wisdom of wisdom. But ah pointing to Colossians chapter 2, which I brought up, you know, it says that he is the fullness
00:21:20
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:21:28
Shane
of God's wisdom and knowledge, which is the exact, what this book is about.
00:21:30
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:21:32
Shane
And so, you know, he's the full man manifestation of God. And so he's the full revelation of the wisdom of God. um So, you know, so in a sense,
00:21:43
Danny Price
yeah
00:21:46
Shane
this book is kind of the idea of like, you're trying to live your life as the author of life intended you to live it. um And you're setting your life on the foundation of the author. um And if you're not doing that, you're kind of missing the point of how life is meant to be lived. So, so yeah, it's not messianic, you know, or has typologies in the traditional sense, but it still points to Christ, I would say.
00:22:16
Danny Price
Right. No, that's good. um Yeah, i don't have a whole lot to add to that other than i think it's obvious that you know Jesus being you know a Jew and completely you know would have known about the Old Testament and referenced a lot of these things. I mean, he referenced, like you said, he referenced Proverbs. He references the Old Testament. He upholds it.
00:22:33
Danny Price
um This has doesn't as much have to do with him you know being personified in that and being messianic, but just the fact that Jesus would have agreed with the Proverbs and you know and held those up and learned about them.
00:22:48
Danny Price
And again, you know i think bringing it a little bit more home too, of just like him agreeing with that kind of stuff, you know when he sums up the law the law and the prophets you know in the two greatest commandments, which is love the Lord your God and love others,
00:23:00
Danny Price
ah
00:23:01
Shane
right.
00:23:01
Danny Price
you can see that just perfectly like exemplified in Proverbs. Like so much of it is how do I love God? Which, you know again, and again, referring to wisdom too, I'm not saying wisdom is God, but God's wisdom is, you know, it's, it's loving God and loving his wisdom and then how to love others. And you see all this with just how to relate, you know, it's, it's a great book on how to relate to God and how to relate to others. Just to kind of bring that back home for us, just to keep it in the forefront of our minds. You know, we're honoring God by reading the Proverbs and seeing how we can apply that to our lives.
00:23:31
Danny Price
So. um Next question. Hold on, I gotta pull them up. um This is ah actually, this is kind of Hannah's question, which I thought was a really good one, and I just wanted to, I kind of massaged it a little bit and reworded it for my, you know, for what I thought was kind of what she was trying to get at, but we ended up talking about this for a while, but again, credit to her for this one.
00:23:51
Danny Price
If I feel like I'm not wise... or if I'm drifting away, like all the examples that you gave of drifting away from from wisdom, what do I do?
00:24:00
Shane
good
00:24:01
Danny Price
If I ask God just for wisdom, is it that simple? If I'm if if i'm truly sincere, is that enough? um What does James 1, 5 through 8 have to do with this? And I can pull, and do you have in front of you? Otherwise I can pull it up.
00:24:14
Shane
um I can pull it up pretty fast, but um well um' if I'm going to answer specific to a verse, I want to see it anyway.
00:24:20
Danny Price
yeah, here, I'll pull that up. Um, this is NIV.
00:24:23
Shane
James 1, 5 through 8. Okay.
00:24:25
Danny Price
yet Yeah, this is NIV.
00:24:25
Shane
Yeah, I've got it too.
00:24:27
Danny Price
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea blown and tossed by the wind.
00:24:34
Shane
Thank
00:24:37
Danny Price
That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double, double-minded and unstable in all they do. Um, So again, just go back, like what but what i if I feel like I'm not wise and I look at myself and I go, man, I i don't feel like I'm a very wise person, what do i do with that?
00:24:53
Danny Price
Especially given this, like obviously ask, is it does that mean I instantly get it? like I don't know if you just want to want to take all those questions and kind of just toss some stuff around and see. I just wanted to see what you thought.
00:25:03
Shane
Yeah, let's let's start with the, if I ask, do I instantly get it? No. um I, you know, i okay, I guess I would say this.
00:25:07
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:25:16
Shane
Does God miraculously give us wisdom beyond anything we've known? Yes, sometimes that happens. um Most people, most of the time, though, are also, you know, it, it Life's not meant to be like, we just ask God like a magic ball and we get, you know, we get just his wisdom on every situation.
00:25:40
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:25:42
Shane
We are meant to train in it.
00:25:42
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:25:44
Shane
So you start by asking for it, but then, then you have to start training yourself in it. And, um, you know, that, that does take effort and it does take work.
00:25:52
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:25:56
Shane
Um, you know, James says, you know, we shouldn't doubt God in it. Um, and we And we shouldn't ah doubt God in it, but at the same time, we shouldn't have a false confidence.
00:26:08
Shane
Like if we're someone who never reads the word, we we just never want to read the word.
00:26:09
Danny Price
and
00:26:12
Shane
We never dig into the word. We know we hardly go to church or whatever. And when we just say, oh, I asked God for wisdom in this, and now I'm just going to do what came to my mind.
00:26:23
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:26:23
Shane
Well, you know, I kind of tried I think some people thought I was being mean. um One of the services I talked about, you know, and when I was a youth leader, when I was a youth pastor, we'd have some of those kids wear the, what would Jesus do bracelets? And, you know, on some of the kids, you know, you know, I was probably, I was kind of giving them a hard time, but being a little harsh of like,
00:26:45
Shane
how there's no way you're not going to know what Jesus would do. you don't even open your Bible. Like it doesn't matter how many bracelets you wear. gotta, you gotta ah you got to read your Bible, you know?
00:26:52
Danny Price
ah
00:26:53
Shane
So, um, you know, we, we do need to train for it a little bit.
00:26:54
Danny Price
That's funny. Hmm.
00:26:59
Shane
Um, But I also think there are a lot of followers of Christ and Hannah is falls into this category. We've talked a few times that they probably doubt themselves too much also um that, you know, that they do read God's word and they do pray and they do um and they are seeking him.
00:27:13
Danny Price
and
00:27:21
Shane
um, And he is speaking to them. and And chances are they do know what a lot of things that they might not feel confident in, yet they actually do know what they should do.
00:27:33
Shane
And oftentimes we honestly just don't even want to listen to what it says we should do because what what God says we should do, the wise thing to do, is oftentimes the hardest thing to do.
00:27:33
Danny Price
Right, right. Yeah.
00:27:42
Shane
um You know, it's the hardest thing to confront the situation or to ask for forgiveness or to, you know, I mean, quite frankly, you know, just,
00:27:43
Danny Price
yeah
00:27:52
Shane
Just before we started here, i you know we had a little incident on Sunday where I felt I just kind of overstepped a bound. And I could have not said a word to you about it.
00:28:04
Shane
I could have just went, oh, he's fine or we're fine.
00:28:05
Danny Price
no
00:28:07
Shane
But I felt like the wise thing to do was to apologize. And it's still, ah it's always a little awkward to do that.
00:28:11
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:28:13
Shane
It's always just bring something up. And sometimes when bringing up the person, just like, didn't even know what you're talking about or whatever. um Or you never know, they might be really upset then it's going open up a whole conversation.
00:28:24
Shane
And so it's the harder thing to do. The easier thing to do is to just go, Oh, no big deal. You know, and but then, you know, that's not wise because then barriers can be built up.
00:28:32
Danny Price
Sure.
00:28:36
Shane
So the heart, the wisest thing to do is the hardest generally. And so therefore I think a lot of times we actually do know, and we just don't really want to do that.
00:28:48
Shane
We want to do what we feel. Um, so now I'm rambling, but I kind of got off a little bit, but
00:28:50
Danny Price
Sure. No. No, I, I, that w that was perfect. Um, yeah, I think that would be, i would, I would tend to agree with you with that.
00:29:01
Danny Price
And I'm not saying like, we all, we all have truth inside of us and it's, all we have to do is just tap into our truth and just do it.
00:29:06
Shane
but
00:29:07
Danny Price
Follow your gut. No, not, not saying that.
00:29:08
Shane
Our truth, your truth, my truth.
00:29:09
Danny Price
Yeah, right. I totally you know would say, like, agree with you there. Like, oftentimes we see a situation, it tends to be the hardest thing, the harder thing to do. a lot of times we know what we should be doing, um whether that's because of God's moral law written on our heart, like you said, or because we're Christians and we we know what the Bible teaches on that. And we're like, I know what I should be doing.
00:29:30
Danny Price
um I think I was just thinking more, and or i'm i'm I'm thinking more of the person that's like, I know I'm an idiot when it comes to just general life. And I just feel like I just don't know what i what I'm supposed to be doing. Not necessarily always in like the midst of like a super serious, you know like or like not even as serious, but just like a, yeah, I offended someone. I probably should go seek them out and seek restoration. I'm thinking of the person that's like, in general, like I just feel like I'm silly and I don't have wisdom. um know Almost like someone who's like a teenager and you and you just watch them make all kinds of decisions. you're like, what is going on inside their head? like What are you doing? like Everything you do is the way I would not be doing that.
00:30:09
Danny Price
um What do you tell someone like that who just feels like maybe they're a little too flippant and unserious and not wise in general in life? Not necessarily when it comes to um a specific instance, you know, like, or a specific case of like, Hey, you probably know what the right thing is to do just in general. If someone's like, I just don't feel like I'm, and I i hesitate to say smart because like you mentioned in the sermon, smart and wisdom is not the same, but where they feel like that. Like, I feel like I want to make the right decisions and I just don't.
00:30:37
Danny Price
um
00:30:37
Shane
Yeah.
00:30:38
Danny Price
where do Where do they turn? What do they do?
00:30:39
Shane
Well, I would say one, I i totally identify with that. um You know, it's funny because this church and I think you can attest to this in the, I think the family, our family knows me different than the church knows me.
00:30:54
Shane
Not that I'm a different person, but you see me in all contexts.
00:30:56
Danny Price
Yeah. Hmm.
00:30:58
Shane
um And even our staff, I think they know me a little bit different in that they see that. Yeah. I mean, just my person, my personality is not, I'm not Mr. Think everything through um really be diligent in follow through really, um you know,
00:31:18
Shane
consider every word that comes out of my mouth. Um, that's not who I am as a person.
00:31:21
Danny Price
h
00:31:24
Shane
Um, and, and so like, especially when I was a teenager, like when I was a teenager, every single I, my parents thought school ended 30 minutes late because I had detention every single day. I was in Saturday school at least once a month for about almost two full years.
00:31:43
Danny Price
That's so funny.
00:31:43
Shane
Um, you know, I, I, all that because I was, I was just kind of stupid in the way I did things. I I was very flippant.
00:31:49
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:31:51
Shane
Um, I, I, I worked off of impulses. I probably gotten seven fights in high school, like fist fights, you know? Um,
00:31:59
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:32:00
Shane
I got kicked out of one school and moved and switched to another school. I did, I made a lot of just flippant, impulsive choices. I lived off of that. And, and that's still very much my personality.
00:32:11
Shane
I I'm i'm impulsive.
00:32:13
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:32:14
Shane
um So I say that to say, I, I totally identify with you on that. If anyone who has that kind of question, that kind of thought and that kind of question.
00:32:23
Danny Price
yeah
00:32:23
Shane
And that's where the training comes in. um Because I think that, especially, and maybe it even, i even get more respect from people who know me in some ways, if they, because if they know that about me, it does make them respect that, Hey, he, he, he works to not be that way all the time, you know?
00:32:42
Danny Price
Sure.
00:32:43
Shane
um And so, um but it took effort for me. It wasn't easy. You know, it's like, it's funny. Cause you know, David being and my son, there's a lot of things about David if you didn't know we, David was my son, you'd be like, Oh, well there's no way that's his son because you know, David thinks a lot more and you know, and he plans and you know, that kind thing.
00:32:58
Danny Price
ah
00:33:02
Danny Price
sure
00:33:04
Shane
Um, he still builds things the way I build them where we just start doing and hoping it works out. But, ah
00:33:10
Shane
but, um,
00:33:13
Danny Price
Nicholas Matsakis, yeah.
00:33:13
Shane
But I totally ah get that feeling and um and it takes training.
00:33:16
Danny Price
yeah
00:33:18
Shane
It really, it will that's where it comes. And that's where it comes down to getting into God's word. um Other reading, reading other, you know, I've gained a lot from other, what I would call mentors, but they're not people I know.
00:33:32
Shane
They're just people who i I get, I identify with them in the way they write about God's word and the way they write about life transformation. And so I read a lot of their books. Um, and, and I, I grow and, and am challenged through that.
00:33:42
Danny Price
yeah
00:33:48
Shane
I, I don't know now, i've you know, i don't know if that's hitting that.
00:33:49
Danny Price
Totally. No. I captured that perfectly. um Something that came to my mind just thinking about this is going but you know back to the verse of like if any of you last lacks wisdom, you should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault and it will be given to you. And I think, you know, when it talks about the rest of it, I think it just means, again, this is my interpretation from what I'm looking at this. I think it means don't ask double-mindedly. Like I kind of want, I kind of don't like just ask with sincerity to God. I need wisdom and God wants to give it to you.
00:34:17
Danny Price
However, that being the case, um wisdom is not the same as doing the right thing. And, like acting, acting wisely.
00:34:29
Danny Price
And and i just wanted to make that clarification. I think some people assume that if you have all the right pieces put together in your head and have all the right information and have the wisdom, you'll always do the right thing.
00:34:41
Danny Price
And that's not always the case. I think a lot of the time we, like you said, we oftentimes know what to do and we still don't do it.
00:34:42
Shane
No.
00:34:48
Danny Price
And I can sit, I think I think of so many times in my head where For example, I fight you know a fight with Hannah, and I'm like, I should have the wisdom to know, and maybe I even do you know to a certain degree of like, hey, I've seen this path before. If I say this hurtful thing, she's going to respond in this way, which then is going to trigger something in me, which then is going to trigger. And it's just like this negative spiral.
00:35:07
Danny Price
And I see that, and you'd think, oh, if I were just if i had the wisdom to see that, I would i would stop it. But seeing seeing something and having like the visual wisdom of like, oh, I know this pattern, I've seen this before, is not the same as acting wisely, where then I go, I'm going to wisely hold my tongue and not say that the stupid thing that I was going to say.
00:35:21
Shane
um
00:35:26
Danny Price
It's very, very, very different things.
00:35:26
Shane
Yeah.
00:35:28
Danny Price
um So God might give you wisdom.
00:35:29
Shane
Absolutely.
00:35:30
Danny Price
And, you know, and i totally think that, god again, God graciously gives to those who ask. That does not mean that you aren't going to get yourself into pickles. Like I get myself into all the time, even though, you know, I might have a wise idea or a wise thought or wisdom in a certain area does not mean that I'm acting wisely.
00:35:45
Shane
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:46
Danny Price
So.
00:35:47
Shane
That's that's so true.
00:35:50
Danny Price
um Let's see here. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that? This next question totally is totally different. And it's not in the same track. So I just want before we move off, I don't want to leave anything behind.
00:35:58
Shane
I'm trying to think. um No, i I think that ah there was something you were saying, i but I'm trying to remember what it what it was.
00:36:10
Shane
Oh, the acting on wisdom, you know, just, yeah, that did it really, i really like what you said about that, that it it's the the practical understanding of God's word to say,
00:36:13
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:36:27
Shane
I'm actually going to act on this. I know it, but I'm, and now I'm going to actually act on it. Um, because that, that's the hardest part, right?
00:36:38
Shane
I mean, it's, it's easier. It's much easier to know something that is to act on, on it. Um, and you know, like I, I know plenty, i know all I need to know about health to be 40 pounds lighter.
00:36:44
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:36:53
Shane
I absolutely, I know, you know, sure.
00:36:53
Danny Price
Right. You have the wisdom.
00:36:55
Shane
Do I, yeah. Do I know as much as some people know, I could obviously gain more information, but I know enough to be 40 pounds lighter.
00:37:03
Danny Price
Right.
00:37:04
Shane
And, but I just, I don't use as much wisdom in that area of my life as I do in others. And, you know, and so, so the acting on it is, is really truly the key.
00:37:11
Danny Price
Sure, sure.
00:37:17
Shane
And, um, and that's the hard part.
00:37:17
Danny Price
Yeah. And I guess someone can make the argument and they go, well, if it's only knowledge if you don't actually apply it.
00:37:19
Shane
So.
00:37:24
Danny Price
And then that's when it becomes wisdom. And I could, I would hear you there. Like, I understand what you're saying. I'm just, I think we're making the broad point of it's possible to know things and even to maybe know wise things and not do them and not act wisely.
00:37:35
Danny Price
Um, this is not, Oh yeah, exactly.
00:37:35
Shane
Well, Solomon's a perfect example of that. and which
00:37:38
Danny Price
is he was the wisest man.
00:37:41
Shane
Yeah. That might lead us in, don't know if you want to get into David's question, but otherwise you...
00:37:42
Danny Price
Um,
00:37:44
Danny Price
No, that I do. Really quick before we do, I just want this a quote. It's a secular quote. I'm not endorsing everything this guy says. i don't know much about him, but I did like it when it talks about like when it comes to doing and acting and walking in obedience versus just thinking or knowing the thing. um It's from Chris Williamson. So he's like, you know, he does a lot of like um planning and preparedness and you know kind of like one of those like motivational guys. So you could look him up. But he has this quote, and I love it, about doing something.
00:38:13
Danny Price
um Here's what he says, preparing to do the thing is not doing the thing. Scheduling time to do the thing is not doing the thing. Making a to-do list to do the thing is not doing the thing. Telling people you're going to do the thing is not doing the thing. Hating yourself for not doing the thing is also not doing the thing. Reading about it, how to do the thing is not doing the thing. The only thing that is doing the thing is doing the thing. So when it comes to like, just apply that again, he's talking about like, are you going to work out or whatever it is? But if just apply that to obedience to the Bible, preparing to obey is not obeying scheduling time to obey is not obeying or, or being wise, whatever, however you want to use this biblically. I just, I loved how he put that. It's, you can just, you could daydream and think about it and,
00:38:52
Danny Price
I'm going to do it. edit it's Unless you actually obey and do the thing, you're not doing the thing.
00:38:56
Shane
No, Danny, you you need to take time to write it out and post it on your wall and and calendar it and then and then put quotes up and schedule and share your goals with other people.
00:38:59
Danny Price
ah
00:39:06
Danny Price
There you go. There you go.
00:39:10
Shane
that i would heard those are we this is kind of an inside joke because... That is the perfect quote for Danny to love because our whole family likes to write goals like every quarter, or every year, and then try to hold each other accountable to them and that kind thing.
00:39:26
Danny Price
oh
00:39:26
Shane
And then, you know, we never hit even close to what we are. And Danny never participates. He always just makes fun of us. And he's it doesn't matter how much you do that. You just have to do it. So that is the that is the Danny quote.
00:39:36
Danny Price
Yeah, that's it's like it spoke to me. It's a good quote. It spoke to me.
00:39:43
Danny Price
I like it, though. It's it's it's good.
00:39:45
Shane
I'm sure you like it.
00:39:45
Danny Price
Anyways.
00:39:46
Shane
that
00:39:48
Danny Price
I love it when other people agree with what I think.
00:39:49
Shane
Sure.
00:39:50
Danny Price
Um, anyways. All right. Um, total again, kind of shift shifting gears here. So again, you talked about Solomon's a good lead up. Um,
00:40:00
Danny Price
i i'll ask I'll ask the Solomon one first and then we'll do the the the other one second just so it ties in. This is from David. This is his his question. Seeing that both Solomon and David did not finish well, like yeah as in finish their life well, what practical habits help those of us in our 30s to 50s continually seek wisdom in making faithful choices over the long haul?
00:40:21
Shane
Um, man, that's, that's such a good question. And I will say like, I just, I even notice, um, you know, probably the last couple of years, I find like it's easier for me to, to, to not focus and do the practice, the habits that I have for so much of my life that have, have kept me walking in wisdom, you know, as my, that's, that doesn't sound very humble, but you know, I mean, in the areas that I have been able to grow in, um, um,
00:40:49
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:40:57
Shane
And so, you know, you do, I, I, I think I noticed like, man, it's easier to kind of just let things slip a little bit as you get older, if you're not super diligent. So, um, the habits i know, you know, that for me have, have made a huge difference is one true accountability, like people that, you know, love you enough that you really can be honest with And you know we'll pray for you and we'll also not be afraid to call you out.
00:41:29
Shane
you know that's That's been a big one um for me.
00:41:32
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:41:32
Shane
And then also give you counsel, like godly counsel. I've always had, it's getting harder to find them, but older men in my life. you know As I get older, it's hard to find guys that are older.
00:41:45
Shane
um But um you know when I was in my 20s, I had guys in their 40s that I was pretty close with that – that I did a lot of mentoring under. And when I was in my 30s and 40s, I had guys in their late 50s to 60s that I was being mentored under. And, you know, now that I'm in my 50s, I, you know, don't have as many.
00:42:08
Shane
But um I do it like I still have um like Scott McKinney, who, you know, I call probably, you know, not as often as I probably should.
00:42:13
Danny Price
Yeah. Hmm.
00:42:16
Shane
But, you know i still will talk to him about three times a year about like real things going on in my life and my ministry and and, you know, um and and get some insight from.
00:42:27
Shane
And then on top of that, I see him. But, um you know, ah or Dan Gritton, I've always looked up to Dan Gritton and, you know, for many years had that kind of relationship with him or would just listen to a lot of things he said. So, um you know, i think the council, you know, and Proverbs talks a lot about that, the council of having wise people around you. And then obviously regularly being in the word, you know, um but, you know,
00:42:57
Shane
regularly being in it, even when you don't feel like it regularly being in it, um, switching it up at times, if that's what you need to do, how you, how you read it, what you read the way, you know, what you're looking at it for all that, um, you know, uh, is also beneficial.
00:43:08
Danny Price
Yep. Mhm. huh
00:43:14
Shane
And, and then I, I, I truly, you know, people are going to say I'm this way because I'm a pastor. I don't know. You can speak into this, but I truly believe true involvement in the body.
00:43:25
Shane
like grew true involvement, not like, Hey, I attend church every other week and, you know, and I'm out the door within, you know, 10 minutes of it being over. And I don't think about it until next Sunday morning, but true involvement in the body, you know, serving, being involved in the Bible study. you know, I would say those to me are like probably the three core things. Like if I, let's put this away. I think if,
00:43:52
Shane
Christians all practice those three core things. I think that would deal with so much. You would see such a huge difference in the body of Christ in the United States. If they literally just had accountability, mentorship, and, you know, accountability, mentorship in the word and, and, and actually involved in the body.
00:44:15
Shane
I think you'd see a massive difference in the body of Christ.
00:44:18
Danny Price
Yeah, no, I agree. um Let's see here. i'm I'm trying to figure out. Really quickly, just what you mentioned about the you know church and being involved, I think that is huge. I think, again, you know, it just comes to obedience of like, you know,
00:44:32
Danny Price
this has got kind of how Jesus set up, you know, when he started the church, you know, after, you know, after his death and ascension and like the church started and the Holy spirit comes. i mean, we see what it looks like in the early church and how to exist in community and how to flourish. And I think we just follow, fall in line with that. Um, that kind of leads me to this bigger point, which is, and I don't know if this is so anecdotal. I don't know if this is true.
00:44:55
Danny Price
I see a lot personally, ah see a lot of guys. And once they start having kids, um, really pull away from any type of meaningful friendships and relationships in lieu of either hard work, you know, trying to have a good career or their kids, you know, they just get lost in their kids, which is, I'm not saying, you know, having good relationships with your kids is bad.
00:45:05
Shane
Thank you.
00:45:17
Danny Price
I'm just saying they get kind of get lost in it. And they kind of just like fall off the face of the earth. And you see later on in their fifties plus, right when they're right at the same time that most of their kids are graduating and leaving the house, they kind of lose themselves.
00:45:30
Danny Price
Cause there's like, what do I have keeping me going? And I'm not saying friends are only are the only answer, but I will say, like you mentioned, if you have nobody around you that like knows you, like no, no knows you.
00:45:41
Danny Price
And you're in that this area of like, well, I am I'm in between my 30s and 50s. I would really say like, this is something I've just seen anecdotally. So maybe I'm wrong. I just see a lot of guys kind of like lose the passion, lose purpose for life, wander off into affairs, wander off into just getting lost in their golf game or whatever it is as they get older, because it's like, what do you got?
00:45:59
Shane
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:01
Danny Price
what do you got keeping you going? And once once work starts to dry up and you start to become retired, once your kids move away and have their own lives, like What is it? What keeps you going? And, you know, you might have a great relationship with your wife. Maybe not. a lot of times those tend to go hand in hand of like drifting away and losing a good relationship with your wife that I've seen. Again, all of this is anecdotal.
00:46:19
Danny Price
I don't know, though. I mean, you got to think like being involved in some kind of community. you are like you, I think you've said this, other other people say this, but like you are who you are around. And if you're around guys that are following God, you know, passionately and around a community of believers in the church that are, follow that are following God passionately, it's kind of easier.
00:46:37
Danny Price
I'm not saying it's an automatic, but it's easier to follow God passionately.
00:46:39
Shane
Yeah.
00:46:40
Danny Price
So I don't know if you've seen that too. i mean, you, you definitely have seen a lot more people and a lot more, you know, you know, obviously you're older and you've seen a lot more.
00:46:45
Shane
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:47
Danny Price
it Do you agree with that? is that what you, what you've seen?
00:46:48
Shane
Oh, I absolutely agree with that. i mean, yeah. I mean, obviously anything is anecdotal when it's only based on what we have seen, but, but when you see it enough, if if there comes some level of of truth to it, and no.
00:46:58
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:47:01
Shane
And I totally agree. I think, uh, yeah, as, as, and i And I think a lot of times when guys do it, they do it well-meaning, right? They're wanting to work hard and provide for their families. They're involved with their kids' lives. They want they want to be as best dads they can and help coach sports and do all the things. And then then then they're just tired.
00:47:21
Danny Price
yeah
00:47:21
Shane
You know, um so ah so they they're not as involved as they were when they were younger.
00:47:23
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:47:26
Shane
But, um you know, and then oftentimes i also see it at the second stage is, you know, maybe they are involved, maybe church involvement. Like I'll look at like you and David, i would say, you know, you guys have made the commitment where.
00:47:42
Shane
you're going to raise your kids in the church. So, so part of being a good dad for you guys is going to be like, Hey, we're involved with the kids church stuff.
00:47:45
Danny Price
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:47:52
Shane
And if they're in youth group, we're probably going to be youth group leaders and we help with children's ministry stuff and you know, that kind of thing. Um, But then I, so I've said, I've seen a lot of guys that are great that through those ages and then the kids move, grow up and move on. And they're even a lot like sometimes their marriage was based on the kids.
00:48:14
Shane
Sometimes their faith. was even based on the kids and it almost gets, we're like, well, wait a second. I don't have any guys I'm in fellowship with. So, so like you say, same thing.
00:48:22
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:48:23
Shane
I'll go just start golfing. I'll, I'll make friends there. I'll make, you know, and, um and then they do, they kind of just, they, they fall and slip, slip away, you know?
00:48:27
Danny Price
Whatever. Yeah.
00:48:34
Shane
um So no, I do think that that connection of relationship and being, really connected in relationship with, it's not going to, like said, there is no fix all, right?
00:48:46
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:48:46
Shane
If you decide you're going to have an affair, you're going have an affair. um You know, if you decide you're just going to go blow all your money and get in debt and, you know, then you're going to do it.
00:48:50
Danny Price
Right. Right.
00:48:57
Shane
but But man, having wise counsel around you certainly helps. um And I totally agree with you.
00:49:02
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:49:04
Shane
I think you're on track.
00:49:06
Danny Price
Okay. Yeah, no, like again, and anecdotal, but I think there's something that rings true there.
00:49:10
Shane
Yeah.
00:49:10
Danny Price
um Last question, I think for today, also from David. i'm gonna read i think I'm just going to read it verbatim. I was going to try to paraphrase it, but I'm going to kind of blaze through this really quickly, and we'll try to tackle this.
00:49:23
Danny Price
In the sermon Pastor Shane described, Proverbs 22, 6, which, by the way, is um train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Or at least that's the yeah ESV version. As poetic and more of a general—again, this is back to the question. So that that verse is more poetic and more of a general principle than a guaranteed promise, noting that faithful parenting does not always lead to a child walking into faith.
00:49:47
Shane
All right.
00:49:47
Danny Price
How then should we reconcile that there's passages like in Exodus, Deuteronomy and Acts that emphasize God's faithfulness across generations? And then he says, as a young parent, I find hope in those promises, but also see the tension for those of you know of those children who step away. So is Proverbs 22, six meant to be understood as a general pattern or something closer that's tied to a promise when you view it along you know the broader witness of scripture?
00:50:12
Danny Price
So again, long question, but just you get the idea.
00:50:13
Shane
all right Yeah. Well, and I'm going to, so i already shared this with you, but I'll share it on here too.
00:50:20
Danny Price
Right.
00:50:21
Shane
um So last week was a really crazy week for me. And so ah there were a couple little, I didn't have as much time to put into the sermon as I oftentimes do. And so in this area where I knew I wanted to point it out, I just jumped to a proverb that I knew. um But I actually was reminded, I was talking to Tony today and he had,
00:50:45
Shane
kind of brought up like, well, that's, you know, not really what that proverb, you know, if you go back to the original language, the way it's, you know, should be read. And when he said that, I was like, oh, I think he's right. I remember, I remember seeing that. So I did go back. um Like I remember, yeah i mean, from years ago hearing that and ah in my studies. So ah went back and and did some research and I was like, oh, the he is right. So,
00:51:13
Shane
There's two ways that that that proverb actually most scholars would say should be should be read. And it is, the first one is train a child in accordance with his nature.
00:51:24
Shane
That's the first way people would say it is meant.
00:51:26
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:51:28
Shane
And if you say according to his nature, what it's not, it's not saying train a child in making sure they read God's word or, you know, training child in the way they should go towards Christ. It's, Train a child the way that specific child should go. Like, like you don't raise all your children exactly the same. You know, you treat you raise them a little bit different and you you, you, you, you train them in their faith a little bit differently. Right. Like they, some kids need, need more discipline in the word. Some need more education.
00:52:00
Shane
to be more involved in service, whatever it is. um And then the other interpretation is train, um train a child in a manner befitting a child. So more like you don't expect of your child the same,
00:52:15
Shane
at different ages that you'd expect, you know, um, of a, of one age of a, that you would have a different age.
00:52:19
Danny Price
Sure.
00:52:22
Shane
So anyway, so my point is two things. One, I kind of maybe misled a little bit in the sermon on that one. Um, so, um, if, if people were thinking that, but two, now to answer David's question, you know,
00:52:39
Shane
Is there a promise in scripture um that you will, your children will, will walk with the Lord if you raise them up in the Lord? um I know that is really, that's, I mean, the hope, and the agonizing hope, I would even say of, of ah believing parents is right. I mean, they want so badly for their children to walk in the Lord.
00:53:04
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:53:05
Shane
um And I know what David's alluding to with Deuteronomy and Exodus. I actually don't know in Acts what he's talking about there. I'd have to look. But... The promise in Deuteronomy and Exodus is not necessarily for the individual family. It's actually for the nation. um So when we read God's promises, there's times when we, based on the context of the passage, you know, hey, this is a this is a promise for the people group and versus this is a promise for individuals. so um well So I guess I would say, yeah, I actually don't believe that that is a promise. um
00:53:45
Shane
Because at some level, we, we also have to look at who God calls and, you know, there's a whole conversation about that. Um, but I don't believe it's a promise, but it definitely is the, it is definitely opening the gate really wide compared to that. The opportunity that they would have if you didn't train them up, um, you know, would be much more of a narrow opportunity.
00:54:07
Shane
So, um, I don't know if I, if I, if you have anything you want to throw in there to add to that, or, you know, maybe get me back on course if I'm steering off.
00:54:18
Danny Price
No, no, I think that's good. um Like you said, ah think there is an element of like the general principle of God's faithfulness across generations.
00:54:23
Shane
Okay.
00:54:30
Danny Price
And again, faithfulness for his people, faithfulness for the church, faithfulness for the body. um But like you said... if we, if we, if we pull that string all the way through and we say, i i do this, i get this.
00:54:47
Danny Price
We don't always see that in, i don't think we always see that in certain areas in the Bible, especially when it comes to parenting. Like we're really only responsible. We really only have control over ourselves.
00:54:56
Shane
Yeah.
00:54:57
Danny Price
And especially when it comes to like our salvation. And I, you know, to the agony that, you know, I've experienced just even thinking about this. It's like, man, I really, that's like something that I want more than like, if it's my salvation and and Hannah's salvation and like, you know, you know eternal security, like my kids is like right there beneath it. Like it's, it's one of the things that just, you just think about and pray about 24 seven. I think God does honor that in so in certain ways and prayers. And, you know, again, that's,
00:55:22
Danny Price
you know we can get into the whole soteriology of, you know, is it free will?
00:55:25
Shane
yeah
00:55:25
Danny Price
Is it this, is it that? But regardless, I think, I think it's great to pray for those things. I don't know if we can tie a specific promise to I parent. Well, I have saved kids that love the Lord.
00:55:37
Danny Price
You know, um, I think you can control a lot of that when they're at home. And like, this is what we're going to My household's going to serve the Lord, but I don't think you can, i don't know if you can, um, based off the Bible, don't know you can draw that conclusion that it's going to happen.
00:55:49
Shane
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:50
Danny Price
So, Anyways, but that's it. that that That's all I would have add to that. um Hopefully that answers David's question. And honestly, you know, to you know Hannah, Zach, all the people that have put in questions, I hope these were were were hitting it. We we kind of take this any which to which direction. So I hope these are helpful. um That's kind of the end of the questions. Again, just, you know, really appreciate you guys listening.
00:56:14
Danny Price
to the podcast. I think i I'm going to do this. i'm I'm not sure how, but look, look, look for it coming out here in the next little bit. I want to do it like a little bit of a survey or something just to like gauge, like, are we, are we tickling the itch? Like, are we, are there things people would wish that we talked about more um or less maybe?
00:56:31
Danny Price
and And again, I'm wondering about maybe doing like a little survey and sending it out to some people, especially like, you know, regular listeners of like, Hey, if you had to add or subtract anything or, you know, whatever, what would you do? So,
00:56:44
Shane
Is there, is there a way to um like actually be able to send like something out where every, where listeners would actually see it? um Like, like, I don't know how to do that.
00:56:54
Danny Price
I mean, just on this, not necessarily. i mean, if if I'm on YouTube, i if people follow our, which I don't really have a YouTube, we're not doing this on YouTube. If we did have a YouTube, I could make a post, but you'd still only have to be on YouTube to see that.
00:57:06
Danny Price
So it'd have to be like some kind of social media or which we don't really have for the podcast, which I don't know if I want to even get started.
00:57:11
Shane
Well, what if, I mean, i mean i don't know, maybe next week, I don't maybe we talk about this off the air.
00:57:17
Danny Price
Yeah, no, i'm like we'll figure it. We can figure something out.
00:57:18
Shane
and think I had a couple of questions, but I'm like, yeah, we don't need
00:57:20
Danny Price
Okay. But yeah, but regardless, if you're listening, be on the lookout for something like that. You know, we do value, you know, helpful criticism or, you know, you know, compliments, all that kind of stuff. So appreciate you all listening and hope you guys are doing well and living wisely. We will catch you guys next week. All right.
00:57:38
Danny Price
Bye-bye.