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DSC: "Face the Strange" (s5e4) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
19 Plays24 minutes ago
SPACE-TIME BURNHAMUUM. It's training day for Michael Burnham's new first office, Commander Rayner, and he has to learn on the job as both of them are thrust through the history of Disco thanks to a pesky Krenim timebug installed on the ship by Moll & L'ak. Will the tension between the two Starfleet personnel resolve in time to save the ship and the galaxy? Only time will tell.
The grades begin at (15:44).
Recommended
Transcript
Star Trek Discovery Giveaway Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, Trekmarikill listeners, we're giving away Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set. A giveaway, Brian? That's generous. And what, pray tell, must one do to be given Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set? Why, Kristen, all people have to do is send us a poem about Star Trek Discovery. What about a limerick or a haiku? Those work too, and any type of poetry about Star Trek Discovery works.
00:00:24
Speaker
Michael Burnham, she's our gal, and Sintilly is her pal. What are you doing? Are you trying to enter the giveaway? No, I would not be doing that because that would be a violation of the Federal Trade Commission guidelines, Brian. Good. Then you're giving the listeners a chance. You heard Kristin. If you think you've got a great poem about Star Trek Discovery, submit it to our email, treknarykbot at gmail dot.com. And if we like your poem best, we'll send you Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set.
00:00:54
Speaker
That's just a thank you. We're taking your poems into our inbox up until 11.59 PM Pacific Time, December 1st, because I'd like to be able to send this out to people by the holidays.
00:01:05
Speaker
There once was a captain named Lorca, whose love for Elon Musk made him sound like a Dorka. Okay, you have your mission, listeners. Want a chance to receive Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set just in time for the holidays? Then think of a great poem about Star Trek Discovery and email it to trekmericapod at gmail dot.com by 11.59 PM Pacific on December 1st, 2024. Would you trek, marry, or kill that last poem?
Introduction to Final Season Discussion
00:01:33
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. time double yeah um Let's fly. Captain, I'm picking up some odd energy fluctuations. On our way.
00:01:48
Speaker
to We're in a wormhole. Nah, it can't be. Are you stuck in a time loop? What? Time bucks. They're designed to paralyze an enemy's ship by randomly cycling them through time. This has to be ball and lock. We came prepared. We saw our possible future.
Charisse's Return and Episode Focus
00:02:03
Speaker
We can't let it happen. We cannot fail.
00:02:18
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Charisse. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a Star Trek podcast that was a tad more surly pre-Tardigrade DNA. I say that because we're talking about the final season of Star Trek Discovery and an episode that only mentions the mushroom-powered spore drive as a punchline.
Themes and Continuity in the Final Season
00:02:33
Speaker
but it does have a lot of other things going on. Charisse, welcome back. you were We were away for a couple of weeks ah while we interrupted our discovery journey to ah you know look at some inspiration for this episode we're about to discuss. ah Kristen and I looked at a couple of Voyager episodes, but how have you been? Yeah, I've been really good. Super excited to jump into this one. And I'll just say upfront, I actually really enjoyed this one. Maybe because it was nothing like the chase.
00:02:59
Speaker
i Yes, if you're just tuning in, Cherise, the sci-fi savage on social media, ah she did a TNG g podcast called The TNG Podcast for many years and they covered the whole TNG run. And it turns out not a fan of the episode The Chase. Very much not a fan. So I was unpleasantly surprised when I learned that the entire last season of Discovery is just the extended director's cut of The chase but this episode was not that and I actually enjoyed it BAM progenitors ah face ah Face the strange is the fourth episode of discoveries fifth and final season
Plot Analysis: 'Face the Strange'
00:03:40
Speaker
it premiered on Paramount Plus April 18th 2024 Written by discovery veteran Sean Cochran who has been with the show since his first season and directed by Lee Rose
00:03:50
Speaker
Memory Alpha describes it on the way to the next clue. The USS Discovery is sabotaged by a mysterious weapon, leaving Captain Burnham, Raynor, and Stamets as the only crew members who can possibly save the ship in time. What Memory Alpha is not telling us is that the mysterious weapon is a cranium time bug left over from the Time Wars, which were introduced all the way back in Enterprise.
00:04:12
Speaker
believe it or not. And what this time bug is doing, the credit models obviously came from Voyager's year of elbow. And what this time bug is doing is keeping the discovery trapped in its own history so that mall and lock can get ahead of Burnham and co on their next week, on their way to the next clue to finding the progenitor's tech. Folks, if you've been following our schedule.
00:04:32
Speaker
You know that we proceeded this with Relativity and Shattered from Voyager, which are basically what this episode is. And I say that kind of like I'm echoing your sentiment. I'm saying this as a compliment. and Because those were fantastic episodes. Yeah, I think we'll get into this more and in the grades about what we appreciated. But, you know, sometimes when you're doing these shows that are prequels or legacy sequels whatever you want to call it you know ah exploitation of ip further is what the and they're not like necessarily born of telling unique stories i think it's okay to just do updates of previous concepts because your new characters will freshen the idea in and of itself so i think in an episode that goes through discovery's history
Character Dynamics and Evolution
00:05:15
Speaker
is a good way of solidifying that yes, discovery happened. maybe Maybe some people didn't like the show, but guess what? They have a history of their own to revisit a and comment on, not commenting on Star Trek lore, commenting on their own lore, their own history. And that was, in a way, it's kind of like ah something that I very much appreciated, but ah for because it was Discovery doing it, but is one of my favorite TV tropes. This is what I put in the rundown. I love when long running series, especially in their last season or whatever, will recreate earlier seasons.
00:05:50
Speaker
Sometimes they'll recontextualize events, which works sometimes works, doesn't work other times, but it can be fun to see people try to like look how they looked in the earlier seasons and just go back and look. Um, I will say that I totally agree with everything and you just said. And I will say that when, um, me and my, my co-host for the TNG podcast, when we started T and, uh, when we started doing a review of the next generation, there were some episodes in season one, for example, the naked now.
00:06:18
Speaker
where I was like, what the F is this? And my co-host was like, oh, this is actually an episode that was done in the original series and they're just doing it again. And we were like, okay, that's weird. But we were thinking like this is kind of a one-off because it's a new show. It's been rebooted after 30 years. So then we started a new podcast that doesn't exist anymore, but we started it for a little bit. And We reviewed Voyager and the first few episodes of Voyager were the same as the first few episodes of or several episodes of TNG. So she was like, wait a minute. We've seen all these before. And I was like, yeah, you know, Star Trek definitely, you know, it's consistent. It's consistent with this. Like, let's just do what we did before, whether it was good or not. We're just going to do it again.
00:06:56
Speaker
But this episode I love because it wasn't just like, we're just going to do it again and pretend like this was our idea and we never did this before. This felt so much like Easter eggs. like It was very intentional. They wanted you to connect it to all the past dots, even saying the crinum, which is from Voyager, so that you would tie it back to those episodes. So to me, it felt like fan service and I am here for that.
Easter Eggs and Fan Service
00:07:20
Speaker
um I'm always on the fence about fanservice because sometimes I think it can be very well done. Sometimes I think it's so crass as as to cover up the story stuff you didn't want to work on. But yeah, I think I think I'm such an old softy now and it it wasn't it's taking me so long in my own journey with storytelling and and.
00:07:43
Speaker
whether it's on screen or in in writing it's just emotions matter and you don't actually have you have to do work but it's surprising how little you have to do to make something emotional but you have to do it and has to make sense to the character but this is um To me, this episode really was ah emotional fan service, not just for the Star Trek universe. I appreciated the little touches with such as the crinum and stuff, ah but just making any of it matter beyond a gimmick, which I think Voyager most of the time didn't really get
Pandemic's Influence on Storytelling
00:08:20
Speaker
into.
00:08:20
Speaker
When it was doing, it's really cool gimmicks and TNG g even like tie a cause and effect. Was that an emotional episode? No, but it was cool as hell. Like it was really, you know, but in this one, it's like void. This one, though. ah Discovery did do five seasons. It did do 65 episodes. It spans seven years. You know, they.
00:08:42
Speaker
They really bonded up there making the show in their little Toronto cell. You know, that that crew, that cast, they have a history. Sean Cochran has been with the show since season one. It's like his primary writing experience. um and So something about that. And they didn't know this was going to be their last season, they say, it which is kind of crazy because this is the type of episode you would do in its last season. Yeah, this episode felt like they knew at this point. So maybe when did they know? When did they find out?
00:09:10
Speaker
That's a good question. Do you know? I don't know. Maybe we'll find out by the time we get to the end of this review. Yeah. ah Because it feels like they knew right before they made this episode. And they were like, OK, well, let's just say goodbye to the ship. Let's just do it all now. And we're going to talk about why such a strong feeling, I think, because, um I mean, jumping back to the first season
Continuity Challenges in Star Trek
00:09:30
Speaker
especially is kind of the big reason why I would agree with you on that. They must have known. And I had a hint, right? They must have at least had a strong suggestion that that would be the case.
00:09:40
Speaker
ah So Sonequa Martin Green is one of the in one of the season five junkets said of this one playing that playing her younger, angrier season one version was quote hard because I had forgotten how far Burnham had come. I went back and revisited season one in a couple of ways. I went back and watched a little bit. I went back and read some of the earlier scripts and I went back into my journal as the character. I had a sort of ah stream of consciousness journal that I would keep And man, I didn't even know what was going what it was going to be like. And I don't know if that, because I didn't watch the interview, I don't know if she's talking about what going back to the journal would was being like and seeing her thoughts from the time or just re-inhabiting the character. In any case, this was an episode I watched, because like I watched them all right when they dropped. So like at 1130 or midnight, whenever Paramount Plus releases them. And Shreese, this episode was one of the ones that made me sit up.
00:10:34
Speaker
every five minutes. I was like, oh, this is interesting. This is interesting. By the time she runs into herself, you're like, of course, this is where it was heading. The episode isn't about that, though. It's kind of the conflict between ah Burnham and Rainer and how to command the crew,
Actors' Performances and Production Insights
00:10:50
Speaker
which they don't lose sight of, which is why I think the episode is also successful, is that they don't just ditch an idea.
00:10:56
Speaker
But when she runs into her younger self and you could feel the energy, even the audience, you could tell like, wait a minute. Yes, this character has changed a lot, even just the hairstyle. But she inhabited the role. I just thought that was a nice acting trick. I respect the heck out of actors, especially genre ones who are able to convince you that they're playing a real ish person because they get wacky shit to do.
00:11:20
Speaker
but yeah They have to sell it. It was great because I forgot, I also forgot how angry she was in season one and how many things she was going through in season one, because now it's like, she's matured. She's gone through it. And now she's helping other people go through it. So what a treat. I loved it. This was just a fun one. This is a good one. Anthony Rapp told IGN, whenever anybody new comes into our cast, we always welcome them with open arms, especially Saniqua.
00:11:46
Speaker
Uh, she makes sure that if you're coming into our house, you are welcome to town. You're a part of our family, but Calum Keith Renney has been around a long time. So there was a part of him that was like, okay, yeah, we'll see. I've heard that this is a nice place, but we'll see. And then we kept demonstrating that it was just so fun to get to break down the walls and see his warm heart and that crusty exterior.
00:12:05
Speaker
um And that episode in particular was one of those times where I got to do a lot of that with him. It was a total blast. So usually I like to include facts about the episode behind the scenes, but the secret hideout era is kind of a closed system right now. We don't have a lot of the same literature that the older shows have, companion books, a lot of open access, because we have the internet. And I think there is kind of a we you see what we want you to see. It's a there's a much more of ah of a machinery in place for how the shows that we
Comparing Discovery with TNG and Voyager
00:12:40
Speaker
don't get to see the sausage being made. We get told how the sausage is made. And so we don't get as much honesty. And I imagine
00:12:47
Speaker
10, 15, 20 years from now, is Star Trek's still a going concern that some of that will soften and change. We'll get some more info. So right now, we're just left with cast quotes from Junkets. And occasionally, if it's Strange New Worlds, we'll get the showrunners blustering about how they're doing amazing things with Star Trek that have never been done before. But anyway, I still think it's fun. Again, acting is a tough job. And actors are their own sort of culture, subculture.
00:13:13
Speaker
And I love the idea that Calum Keith Rennie, crusty old ah Canadian actor who's done so many genre shows, you know, up there, you know, oh, yeah, Star Trek. Sure. You guys are supposed to be the nice ones and getting welcomed in. And like I've been saying before, he fits in like a glove. It's perfect.
00:13:33
Speaker
uh fit production perspective any memory alpha notes i really only plucked a couple although linus was first seen on screen in the second season premiere brother in this episode it is revealed that the character has been serving on discovery since season one and quite early in season one because uh that but the time when she's still considered a mutineer and, you know, Lorca's whatever, like, that's pretty early. And see yeah what um that's like episode three. pretty Yeah, basically, basically. It's very early on in the story.
00:14:05
Speaker
The conversation with Zora works as a standalone bit of time jumping, but it's also a
Creative Plot Devices in Discovery
00:14:10
Speaker
nod to the short short trek Calypso, ah which ran all the way back in November 2018. That was written by Pulitzer Prize-winning author Michael Siobhan from a story by Siobhan that he co-concocted with the writer of Face the Strange of this episode, Sean Cochran, in that one, A Soldier in the Very Distant Future,
00:14:28
Speaker
played by the very handsome Aldous Hodge, ah wakes up aboard an abandoned Discovery and he and Zora bond or fall in love or whatever. And if you've already seen Discovery's finale, then you know that they try to solve the issue created by Calypso. And we're going to talk about that a little bit more. um But so here we just get a faint connection. um Again, they didn't know if this would be this final season.
00:14:50
Speaker
And um yeah, it's kind of hard to believe that that's the case when you take take the fact that they jumped back to season one, like literally episode three and a half, and and they reference Calypso um that they didn't have any sense of that. ah have Have you seen Calypso?
00:15:05
Speaker
No, I haven't. I actually just learned about short treks last night. Oh,
Episode Structure and Character Arcs
00:15:10
Speaker
I was like, what is this? How long has this been around and where can I find it? So no, I don't know anything about Calypso. We are. I am strongly debating if short treks should be folded into the 950 episodes of Star Trek. ah We have been told that it's canon.
00:15:25
Speaker
i'm I'm not really convinced based on a a lot of what goes on in those episodes that it ought to be. And I don't like I don't see the relevancy for them. ah Calypso is a fun story. And the fact that they do try to canonize it through discovery is an interesting question. But maybe something we'll discuss later in. Let's get into the grades. Great scenes. Cherise, kick us off. How many did you have?
00:15:50
Speaker
So, I'm still not sure about how to put things in this category, so I didn't put anything in this category. No great things, okay. No, and it's not because this episode wasn't great, but it's honestly because I just really enjoyed it. This was one of those ones that I wasn't taking the time to be like, oh, that just happened, and that just happened, which I was very much able to do for all the previous episodes. This one, I was just like, wee! Oh, shoot, it's over. So, yeah, I didn't have any.
00:16:13
Speaker
So my general thought, my review is ah pretty much every scene in this episode is good. Like it's very, it is exactly what you said. It is enjoyable fun. It's kind of a romp, but I've got three that I spotlight as these are great scenes that are moving story, moving character. They're emotional. The there's a tension there.
00:16:33
Speaker
And the three I had were when Captain Burnham initially confronts Commander Rainer about his treatment of Rhys and his general reluctance to um embrace her philosophy. Unacceptable. That's not how we do things, you know, ah but ends with Rainer being like, what if my way is the right way? Which as an ending question, that's not kind of where the scene was leading, because he's not he's he kind of gives his reasons for why he is the way he is, which makes perfect sense, to be honest.
00:17:02
Speaker
You know, when we did the burn and this and that we didn't have time to do whatever. um And she explains her philosophy and then he steps over the line. I just thought it was a great acted scene between the two of them. It's almost rare that we get to see Seneca Martin Green B Burnham as a captain instead of thrust in the middle of some insane plot thing that they have to get through. You know, here she's not running from a droid drone shooting at her, moving a
Impact of Character Relationships
00:17:30
Speaker
rock and ah shouting. Yeah, yeah that she doesn't have works yeah she's not like seven gadgets in her hand, stabbing things. And, you know, she just has to be a Star Trek captain, a Starfleet captain. And we so rarely get to see that. And and it's not at the level of ah the power. There's no power imbalance. He's a former captain. He's not our first officer. They're on equal footing. It's as equal as you can get. She's not like, you know, this isn't an ensign or anything or an alien or whatever.
00:17:58
Speaker
So it was a real scene, like a real Star Trek scene in dramatic. And I appreciated that. What I really loved about that scene and just the idea of it for the episode is I love the fact that they're, that they are addressing the tension between Rainer and Burnham plus crew, because there should be tension. We have seen this guy from the beginning. He's kind of a jerk and he's very focused and single-minded and all of that. And we had taught, you and I spoke about ah when she decided to have him as the first officer, how he was just like, all right, I guess we'll be the first officer. And it was kind of like, really?
00:18:32
Speaker
like you're going from captain to first officer you have no problems with that like we're all good which is which is a star trek trope where people have these huge changes in their lives and they're like that's fine like no has no effect on them emotionally so I really appreciated that they played into it because again like if we go all the way back to TOS that was a big taboo for the
Critiques of Plot Holes and Inconsistencies
00:18:50
Speaker
characters to be super, you know, have a lot of conflict between them. But I love that they're like, no, this character does have issues and does want to be the boss and does want to do things their way. And now they have to deal with it. I didn't know where the episode was going to go. But I just like that this conversation was happening between the two of them, because we did see that a little bit between um
00:19:09
Speaker
Tilly and Rainer, but there is a power imbalance there, right? Like she's not allowed to speak her mind and it's all the things, but like it's really Burnham's job to have this conversation with Rainer. Like she brought him in. It's her job to have this conversation. And I love that he was like, I don't want to play nice with others.
00:19:26
Speaker
That's how you should be. So you have to overcome that. like How do you actually address that other than, I gave you a second chance, man. So you better be grateful. You know what I mean? It's likes it's like very real. So I love that. Yeah. it's This is a consequence of her decision. And I love that she addresses it right away. And she and they did a very nice thing of not calling us back to that conversation or saying, like i I figured this would be a problem. You know what I mean? like She's just like, this is what I expect of you. not not you know And he understands that.
00:19:53
Speaker
Him just bringing up this as a red directive is actually a very important note in the episode because it does give him justification for just being like, there's no time for this shit. It makes perfect sense. So yeah, it's just a well considered scene. And I think the actors are what push it into the great territory. The emotional place rings true and the conflict is real. It's great.
00:20:17
Speaker
Um, and then it gets, it's like a nice emotional setup for our story because it's about the two of them going through this journey together. I think that's great. Uh, and then, I mean, this will come up later, but I think on the same, uh, the same token, the emotional weight of Burnham confronting her younger self and fighting herself is a great scene or sequence because she is playing two different versions of Burnham. And I just think it's amazing. I have a reason later why it's it's works in another grade, but
Balancing Action and Emotional Storytelling
00:20:50
Speaker
I thought that was a great scene. And then last one, last two, I am wrong. Rayner talks down Reese and Burnham in that he remembers what Reese told him, because earlier in the episode, he kind of smacks down Reese's suggestion. But then he calls back to the previous episode where he's like, I remember you said this about ships, which is
00:21:10
Speaker
Maybe we could talk about it a little bit more. But then he's able to talk down um young Burnham because he remembers what elder Burnham said when they were in the future and how she was she looked at this dusty old bridge chair and she was talking about how she was so afraid her first days being there.
00:21:25
Speaker
and he listens and imparts that back to Burnham, young Burnham, who's just still feeling those thoughts. Great dramatic structuring, that was great. Nice performance, I don't know if you need to walk all the way up to the phaser and press it against his chest. Oh, but I love that sort of thing.
00:21:42
Speaker
I love that sort of thing. I do and I don't, but also it's like they could have just stunned them. Like from a reality standpoint, they just go in and stun the intruders and sort it out. Well, from a reality standpoint, how did they even know they were in there and that anything nefarious was going on and that they needed to go in and that they had phasers and happened to be walking by that deck? That's right. Like in reality, they shouldn't have even been there. But since they weren't there. I also remember Reese being there from the very beginning, but that's just me being foggy on season one. But anyway. Oh, but he could have been working, you know, on some other deck or who knows what.
Storytelling Choices and Audience Engagement
00:22:10
Speaker
It's a little funny that he knows something um deeply emotional about Burnham and knows kind of like a trivia question about Reese. Yeah. it's Yeah, ah really. It's treated as equal weight and it's not, but it's it's a well-acted scene and it's a nice dramatic cap ah because what he's actually really doing is he's connecting to Burnham. he's connecting to them as people. Yeah, I mean, I would say like, even though it's definitely a yeah trivia question, if some stranger came up to me and was like, I'm from the future, well, first of all, I call the police, but let's pretend like I believed it, right? And then they told me something about myself that's completely trivial, but it's something I don't go around shouting from the rooftops. Then I'd be like, how the heck? Like that would actually work on me. um Even if it's something not deeply spiritual or emotional or like something about my childhood, but it's just something about me that only my good friends know.
00:23:01
Speaker
And this person is a complete stranger. That would make me not shoot him. You know, what's funny is that he says that his favorite class of ship is the Constitution class. Right. Well, at the time.
00:23:15
Speaker
that's basically the only class of starship that exists remember the original series they all were there because of budget reasons they all just look like the enterprise but like there weren't that many classes of star and he's from like he's from pre-tos
Leadership Challenges and Command Complexities
00:23:30
Speaker
era right so but to me Maybe he could have like Klingon ships or something. It's basically like someone in, ah you know, someone in the 60s saying that their favorite television network is is NBC. There's like three of them, you know. so Well, OK, but he said you'd love the curves and the lines. He added some more stuff into there. He did. He did. It was just funny to point that ah think about that. But I thought that was a great scene. And then I guess maybe I'm a sucker because the the first scene between them that sets up the whole episode is so great.
00:24:01
Speaker
I kind of think they they do a good job on the wrap up scene when they get back from the adventure. I was so and i thought, oh, they kept the episode. This is emotional. Rayner actually seems to have changed. yeah But it was right it it was subtle. Yes. It wasn't this overdone like, oh, Burnham, you were right. Something like Stamets would have done. Wow, you were right and I was wrong. Instead, he's just like,
00:24:26
Speaker
He's about to walk out and then he's like, all right, let me let me just say this. It's not lost on me. That connection saved the day. I get it. Like I was wrong. And she's just like, you know what you you were right, you had a point. But I'm trying to tell you that this is how we do
Legacy and Contributions of Discovery
00:24:40
Speaker
things. And this is why it works for us.
00:24:42
Speaker
And I should have done a better job of explaining it to you. So she was still taking ownership as a boss, which to me is like best boss marks right there is that you're always taking ownership for your, your people and your choices. And she's never just like throwing him under the bus. She's like, no, it's my job to educate you. It's my job to bring you into the fold. It's my job to show you how we do things here, which I just as like, can I work for Burnham? Like this is what all bosses need to be like. she did it And she addressed it right away. She didn't yeah leave it, let it linger or anything like that. She addressed it because they can, they can just beam into a conference room. They could walk or if they could beam. me yeah How else do they get their steps in? I don't know. All right. Okay. They never get their steps in. Best trek tropes. Okay. I have three of those. The first was temporal prime directive. Yes. That's what I wrote in my notes.
00:25:34
Speaker
I just I don't know. I love time travel the episodes. And again, when my co host and I were reviewing Voyager, we reviewed the first five episodes. Within the first five episodes, I think like three out of the five have time travel. good And so my co host was like, um, didn't we just do time travel like the last episode and then the episode before that and I was like, you know what,
00:25:51
Speaker
Now that I think about it, Voyager does time travel like every other episode. That is what this whole, which I never noticed before. And that's my favorite Star Trek. And I never really, it just was episodes, right? Just like a string of episodes. I never noticed how much they do it. And it never affects anything. And I was telling her, I said, it they actually travel so much that at one point a time cop comes back to stop them from all their time travel because they do it so often. Right. and So when this episode was like temporal prime directive, I was just like, yes, because we know they never follow the prime directive of anything on the show. So that just made me super excited. I was, I was happy to see that again. Um, time jumping back to dry dock. Again, that's the throwback to the Voyager episodes, which I love those episodes. So I was super excited about this one because I was like, even though I'm not
00:26:36
Speaker
a huge discovery fan, so I won't be able to appreciate the jumps as much as a fan would be like, Oh, that was the time when this and that was time that like, even though I wouldn't be able to connect that just seeing them move through times is just really interesting because what it is is the perfect blend of new and familiar like the perfect mix because familiar is like it's this ship it's this ship it's the same you know location it's the same two people um so it's not gonna like throw off my brain too hard to figure out where we are but it's new scenarios and so that kind of that's just like a good mix of salty and sweet you know where you're like okay i get what's going on but i also there's also something here to learn or to experience that was cool and then um
00:27:19
Speaker
The other best trek trope was when they went to, when Rainer went to remove the spider from the engineering, whatever. And he just went to like pick it up with his hand and Stamets was like, no, you can't just pull it off. If you do that, it's going to destroy the fabric of space and time. And I was just like, oh, this is so great. Where the most simple solution, like beam it into space, like the most simple solution is like, we couldn't possibly do that because it'll destroy time and space. You're like, all right, all right. So I actually appreciate the thought because they don't always have that extra second of thought to be like, why wouldn't they use the most simple solution? So I like that one. So those are my three.
00:27:59
Speaker
No, it's great. I liked the ah the time bug conceit. It was basically, you know, it'll keep doing this until it runs out of power, you know, and and they had, you know, ah no incentive to drain its power. They need to stop it because of the the clue trail and all that. So it's great. ah Yeah, I basically had some of yours, but also time loops just to kind of, you know, doing time loops can be a Star Trek is good time. Star Trek is really good at it. um And then the maybe it's because Unlike other shows that do time loops that aren't Starship shows, there's just not as interesting things to jump to. so Yeah. You know, and so they're trying to make it interesting. um And then the other one was command conflict. So it's not something we get a lot of the time. And usually I think the way it goes is that it's not a personality conflict so much as it's a decision disagreement. um But, you know, I always think, I guess I always think about personality conflict. It goes back to chain of command.
00:29:00
Speaker
ah You even get it with Rolaren, even though, again, power imbalance there. But I like the command conflict ah being something that they have to put on hold. right it's He's not ready to resolve the fight in and at the end of that scene before they be try to beam to the bridge and then they get caught in the loop.
00:29:19
Speaker
He's like, this seems like something that's a stalemate in a way, emotionally anyway. And then they have to go on this whole journey to get there. But it's so it's very, it's used very well. And we you already outlined all the reasons. It's not frivolous. It it meant something. So it's great. And then, yeah, we're structrobes.
00:29:37
Speaker
Okay, I have two. The first was reinventing the wheel. So at one point, Burnham asked Zora to help her do some calculations to figure out how to stop the time bug. But my immediate thought was, why not just ask Zora exactly what Starfleet did to save them 30 years ago? Because Zora says to them like, oh, by the time that Starfleet found us and saved us, it was already too late and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:30:00
Speaker
So I was like, well, they found you and saved you. Just do what they did. Like do exactly what they did. Why are we reinventing the wheel? And that that like that is very much a trek trope. I'm thinking um there was this episode of TNG where there was like a murder mystery and Beverly was trying to like solve the mystery, right? And this, I think it was a Ferengi scientist had developed this technology to like fly into a star's Corona and survive because it's some kind of shielding, whatever.
00:30:26
Speaker
But then a few episodes later, they need that exact technology. And she's like, the technology hasn't been invented yet. And you're like, we literally we literally had that technology three episodes ago. And then like two episodes later, they use that technology to fly into a star's corona. And so it's just like, don't reinvent the wheel. So that. And then the second worst trek trope is not locking doors. I just don't get it. I just don't get it. I don't understand. like At that one point, Stamets is like, get out of here when someone comes back in after he's cleared out engineering. And I was like, you know what would have helped with that?
00:30:55
Speaker
a locked door, you know, just just locking it. Because even, ah even if all of his staff have a key to the door, you know, they have the code or whatever, the fact that the door was locked would tell them not to come in, because he never locked doors on Starfleet ships. Yeah. So that those are mine. What about you? ah My two were
00:31:15
Speaker
This is something I had like beaten in to me metaphorically ah over the years by other nerds. It's inertial dampers, not immerial inertial dampeners. And we've kind of had this weird language drift where dampeners is now the x accepted thing, kind of like some people get away with saying height.
00:31:36
Speaker
when it's width and height, width becomes height and people just go with it and like, no, the the words were the words for a reason. So I don't know, I guess I'm just kind of like, it was inertial dampers. They could have just said that. um Anyway, ah then then talk about, and then I guess the other worst trick for me,
00:31:56
Speaker
is I think it's strange that the new shows are obsessed with phrasing it this way, of making a connection. This was one of the songs in Strange New Worlds, Connect to Your Crew. You know, it's like, I don't understand, what it's almost, this is the bad faith take, and that's like it's like introverts discovering getting to know people, they think it's some like revolutionary idea. But like, of course, the concept does not connect with people, it's more like, I have to live and work alongside people, getting to know them to make ah conversation easier easier, work conversation easier. ah That's a natural course of human
00:32:38
Speaker
behavior and development so the idea of like making a specialization uh are you good at connecting to your crew is is kind of a weird way of reducing down human behavior it's like are you good at being a person and it's like well if you have to ask maybe not but And so and in a way, it's the fact that Burnham is freezing it that way, that that's the concept that gets used is strange to me because the rest of the conversation makes perfect sense. This is how I would prefer our crew to operate, you know, that everyone is feels that they can offer suggestions. ah And that was enough. Like, this is how I want things to be. She's the captain. and She gets to do that. I guess just kind of couching it in like ah ah an advertising term.
00:33:23
Speaker
connect to your crew. It's like, yeah it's a weird phrasing that they use a lot. And I don't know if it's a shortcut. It's an encapsulation. It's an idea that they think is unique from just, don't you want to know the people that you're counting on? You know, that's just seems pretty normal to me. Uh, and again, even if you ah take that phrase out, Rayner's resistance still makes sense. so We don't have time for this. Like it, like everything makes perfect sense. It's just the, it's just the special phrasing that they use that I put as a worst trick trope.
00:33:52
Speaker
yeah because i we oh go ahead i don't I don't know if that, my thinking when you're saying that is that this could be a reaction to the 2020 pandemic where everybody felt completely disconnected and and dehumanized in a sense, right? Everybody, like a lot of people just lost all social skills. um All the poor extroverts lost the will to go on.
00:34:14
Speaker
Because I just could not get out. We sure did. sure thanks yeah's right I know. i i so I saw the memes. I saw the memes from all the extroverts that were like, help, help versus me and all the other introverts. We were like, wait, has something happened? Has something changed? ah What's different? um So I think this is this could just be a reaction to like just a cultural, you know, like a global cultural reaction to we were all so disconnected for quite a while.
00:34:41
Speaker
Like it wasn't just a week or two. It was quite a while of being like, we can't be around people. We can't even look at people. We can't even smile at people. We can't talk to people. You know, it's not allowed. And then kind of coming out of that to be like, okay, how do we do this again? So I feel like that that might be why everybody's all connection, connection, connection, connection, because we felt the weight of not just having those just casual, just walking to the grocery store, smiling at people, just the casualness of connection that we had was gone. So that that's what I'm thinking that this may be just like the counter to that.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, I'll go with that. That makes a lot of sense to me. There's a lot of stuff I see online where I'm like, I don't understand where this is coming from. And then I realize a lot of people now, four years later, they were like maybe nine or 10 or 12 even. Now they're just older. And like that's how they connected at a prime developmental stage. And so that's what a lot of stuff online starts to mean. um Most cosplayable character or moment? This was tough for me.
00:35:35
Speaker
Oh, this is easy for me. Arium a hundred percent. there That was great. I was like, yes, if I had the patience for prosthetics, <unk> I'd be that that was very cool. This was my design of a cosplay. Both Burnhams. You do like a two-face situation. And you just split it down the middle. With the two different colored outfits? That's right. Yep. Yep. And the two different hairstyles. Yeah, that'd be dope. I love how Linus was like, can I just say red is so your color? Because I didn't know what he was going to say. And while she was sitting there like, oh, I thought he was going to be like, what are you doing here? Or you're not allowed, or something like that. But I love the little, oh, red really works for you. And she's like, thank you.
00:36:14
Speaker
but The only reason I remotely tolerate Linus is because Sanico Martin-Green's able to convey delight when she interacts with Linus. Because otherwise I'm like, this is like, we we haven't made a joke or we've talked too much like Star Trek for too long. We need something to deflate that. We need Linus in here.
00:36:34
Speaker
Oh, his head's stuck in a replicator. Oh, he's sneezing on people. like that's It's literally like, we don't want to do Star Trek right now. It's been two minutes. Yeah. um It's uncomfortable silence, but it's uncomfortable sci-fi. He's a reaction to that. We need to get out of this. How do we do that? But she's so delighted when she says thank you. like she There's like a tension. That's why I really appreciate her. And she it's very real and very cool.
00:37:03
Speaker
Now it's time for the line, Mr. John. Great lines. I have a couple. ah My first is spare me that I get you BS. I really liked that line. And my response to him was like, buddy, sharing emotions is what discovery is all about.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah, he's read their personnel profiles, surely he knows. How do you not know that? How do you not know that already? But I just love that line because it was like, again, like it needed to be said, it needed to be said from his perspective, because that's exactly what he was thinking. And he needed to say maybe not that exact phrase, but he needed to say something along the lines of like,
00:37:37
Speaker
I'm over this. I get you. yeah I get you and you know me and all the things all I like. I am here to do a mission. That is what I'm here for. And I don't need to be buddies with any of you, you know, and he was a captain. He's perfectly you can completely understand why he's talking this way. Yeah, he's he's not yet real like reoriented to not being number one to not being captain, especially when he ends with my ways better. He's still he's still in captain mode, yeah which is makes sense because who goes from captain to first officer? Who does that? right um I love that you're like this agent being like, you're insane. Why did you ever agree to this, Rainer? I'm trying to retire, dude. If this is been going to be the experience, just retire. Just take your retirement, go live on whatever the version of Risa is now in the 32nd century, and call it a day if that's going to be the situation. um So I like the line, fail to prepare, prepare to fail, because this is actually a phrase I've been saying to myself all week. So I was like, Star Trek, how did you know?
00:38:32
Speaker
um And then I like the scene where Reno says get a better helmet because I was thinking the same thing before she said that that when they're like fighting with the people in the corridor and stuff and I'm like how I was literally going how are they knocking these people out with a punch. Through a helmet like the point of the helmet is to protect your head from impacts.
00:38:52
Speaker
That is its entire function. So how is it possible that they're like get hit one time in the face and they fall down when they're wearing a helmet and then when Reno comes out and it's just like get a better helmet? I was like, oh okay, because these helmets are just, you know, costumes. There's no other time to talk about this. We need to talk about that fight scene. It was just absolutely dreadful.
00:39:09
Speaker
They didn't like it. They all rushed at them simultaneously. These are like tactical ah armed people with tactical gear on and they're just. didn't you Well, right. And they're but they're just running at the ah at the force they're countering instead of setting up in the hallway doing cover fire. They're running on them like they're doing a one on one hand fighting.
00:39:29
Speaker
It's just so, and it looks, you know, it's ridiculous. I, I understand this is not what the story is about. It's just like how many episodes of discovery boil down to a really chintzy, Oh, a fight scene to keep it exciting. You know what and I mean? Like how much thought has put it, how many thoughtless fight scenes have we seen in five seasons of discovery? And I guess that's why the Burnham Burnham fight was kind of like.
00:39:54
Speaker
uh i don't know if the necessarily the actual choreography is all that great but it's emotional and it's interesting to watch you know it's just that kind of thing but i love both of them i put both of them on my shoot to thrill i was like fight scene i loved it like it was cool the uniforms are cool um i really like those uniforms i like the like bicycle helmet so they're just kind of nameless faceless it's very star wars you know where it's like well that's why i didn't like it yeah Well, like, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to do prosthetics. You don't do alien makeup. It's just bad guys and helmets. Because that's all we really care about is that bad guys versus good guys. And we can tell them apart. That's all we care about as the viewer. um And I love that it was Burnham and Rayner together, like doing something together. Oh, I like the setup. I just yeah thought the execution was not all that great. But
00:40:40
Speaker
ah Yeah, we're doing shoot to throw right now. We'll go back to the lens in a second. The Burnham Burnham fight is my shoot to throw most exciting. Yeah, just have them it's on there too. Because that was that was just fun. um And then I liked um the scene between Burnham and Booker, where she says change can be hard. And he says it's the only way anything meaningful can happen. I don't know if that's true. But it just seemed like a really deep thing to say. So I liked it. um I like I wrote it down and I thought about it and I was like, I don't I don't know if that's actually true. Well, was he wearing his shirt at that point? i yeah He was not wearing his shirt at that time. Does that change what he said? No, I think it i think it explains why at first you're like, that sounds nice. Then once you get away from the shirtless man, you're you're like, wait a minute. Is he feeding me a line? Yeah. don't you yeah So that's mine. What about yours?
00:41:27
Speaker
uh, Burnham. Well, he lives outside of time because of his tardigrade DNA, just her having to explain why Stamets wouldn't be affected. Uh, that is and a funny line and she delivered it very well. So it was great. And it also fits the show. And it was helpful for me too. Cause I forgot about that. So I was like, Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Now she said that.
00:41:45
Speaker
You know what, I did forget about that too. That was another time where I perked up. Yeah, but that's another part in the couch where I sat up. I'm like, oh, damn, they're, they're actually engaging with their lore. This is great. Uh, Stamets line. Um, there's been a sport breach evacuate now or or mushrooms will grow on your lungs.
00:42:03
Speaker
Uh, I have some issues later when he's like, I'm a little concerned that my staff doesn't know that's not a thing. Like I thought that was really funny. It was like, he's used the sport breach like three times and people were like, Oh, it could do that. Would this episode be a fun hollow novel to play out? I said, yes. Why?
00:42:24
Speaker
Uh, it's, it's a jukebox. Uh, you could do the format with any of the star, like this episode works for the best Star Trek concepts. What am I trying to say? There are a lot of good Star Trek concepts that work for all the series. And I think that them doing what Voyager did, it works because you get to jump through your lore. So even if I'm not a Discovery fan, let's say, you can still do this whole novel where you're on the enterprise, whether it's the bloody ABC or D, and you could jump through, uh, and do these, this little adventure and your, your goal is to stop the time bug.
00:42:59
Speaker
um And you can stop it a variety of ways because obviously you can do it exterior. There's an exterior way to stop it since they were found. Right. That's what Zora tells them. You can do it interior wise, but also you have to you have these mini objectives like don't pollute the timeline or enlist.
00:43:15
Speaker
the someone to help you, you know what I mean? Like, you have to figure out how long you have between these jump. It'd be a fun adventure to play. And if you had everyone's consent to use their likeness, I guess, or to rec recreate actual history, it might be fun to have a conversation again, you wish you could do over, you know, there's like a lot of ah like a lot of fun reasons to ah to do it.
00:43:38
Speaker
Um, anyway, uh, you don't agree. think this would No, no, no, no. Everything you're saying makes total sense. I put no, because it's just as a hollow novel, I think of it as a game. And for me, I, I'm not a big fan of open world games with the exception of Harry Potter legacy, because I love Harry Potter. But other than that, like I'm not a fan of open world because I don't, I need more clear goals. I mean, like what, like a clear, and actually that's why I like Harry Potter. It's like, there's a clear thing you're supposed to do. And then there are also side quests, but you can ignore a bunch of the side quests until the very, very end to beat the game, right? So like, i for me, just the way my brain works, I just need things more clear. And the thing with this episode is you're jumping between all these times that I don't know with all these people. I don't know with all these things. So like, I would feel very inept in this particular game. So not because it's not fun, but just because I would be like, what am I doing now? Where am I? Wait, when am I?
00:44:27
Speaker
Who am I? Who am I supposed to talk to? And then it just wouldn't be fun. Because I don't know what's going on. Just be like, it just would make me feel so extremely old while playing this game. um But yeah, but I love everything you said and all the reasons you said it. So I totally agree with you. ah The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. I had Rayner talking to Pass Burnham.
00:44:51
Speaker
I like that scene. I really like that. It's really good. It's really great. Yeah, it's I had to give it to Sinequa Martin Green for the whole episode, though. She gets to play so many different versions of Michael. She not just the past, but how she has to interact with their different time elements. I'm not totally into how she gets all fluttery with around book, because I perceive that this show is still very much like uh sexy people who aren't horny you know what i mean like that there's still that element of it they're all very fond of each other but any in any case i think she has to play so many different shades of burnum and what's going on is not the crazy stuff that's usually going on that distracts from the reality of it but you're right that
00:45:40
Speaker
Callum Keith running is really great in that in that scene with her. But I kind of feel like the reason why that scene works even better is because of his interactions with Michael previously when she explains why she feels this way. And he's able to repeat that like he listened to her. And I feel in that scene, the reason why it works so well is not just his performance,
00:46:05
Speaker
but because she's still playing that angry Burnham who then we see the dial turn to fear and then kind of a ah maybe not a serenity, but like, oh my gosh, I can't believe someone understands me kind of feeling. And it's a magic trick. I think great acting is a magic trick. And he's playing a softer version of the gruff guy. from the beginning, you know what I mean? like And he's kind of able to be very still and calm and change his voice. So if you want, we can split it and give it to both of them since it's a two-hander. I think that makes perfect sense. yeah It's great. The Shatner, then, who really obviously went for it. I'm jumping ahead. If you disagree with me, so be it. But Anthony Rapp is Paul Stamets. I don't know if there's ever a scene, Anthony Rapp's not going for it, that he definite't doesn't think he's in a theater, un-miked in a theater, that he's going for it. give off, he does give off Broadway play vibes in every scene, 100%. Because like with TV and movies, you know, the camera can get so close that it can see very subtle changes in your face. You don't have to be
00:47:09
Speaker
quite as expressive with your body and your words and your voice and stuff like that. And in the scene we were just talking about with Burnham and Rayner, you could see like tears welling up in in past Burnham's eyes as Rayner was like, you felt that. And there was a few days ago, so I know you still feel it. And like you could see the emotion welling up, which is something you could never see in a play because you'd be sitting way too far away. um But yeah, I completely agree that this that he does give off big Broadway energy, every scene. It's like the time bug. We've got to stop it. He's shouting his lines with time. Now, I just want to be very clear. The Shatner is not a bad acting award. It is a going forward award. And I and I want to be very clear. I am not um usually on board with Anthony Rapp's performances as Stamets, but he has created through five seasons a very consistent character. Yes. And he is very earnest in his portrayal. He's not doing a bit. I think I said this with our last discovery episode. They are all trying very hard to create real like an actual character at all times. And so how that comes out is different from, again, to make it look like you're in the scene and in the world and of the world, you're listening to people, you're reacting to them. You're not just like, oh, I'm doing a Star Trek and I'm off to the side doing my own thing.
00:48:27
Speaker
which Stranger new Worlds is very guilty of for lots of reasons. The way they shoot it, it's blocked shot. So literally like they're not in the same room. Sometimes they're acting, but like the way it's written is a little different. This is a very earnest show to a fault, obviously. But the fact is that they have actors who are at all times trying to sell that. I appreciate because if I can get over my own issues watching it, I can step past it and see what Anthony Rapp is trying to do.
00:48:52
Speaker
what he is doing and whether or not I go I jive with it I'm still like I appreciate it he's trying he's also just at all times trying to bring a very specific energy to it I like that you labeled it as Broadway yeah I think it's just that Stamets is a very he's a he's a messy bitch who loves drama He's just he's very dramatic in everything he says and does because he's always wanted people to respect him but and listen to what he's trying to say. I've got those big ideas. I believe we can trip out of mushrooms and travel the galaxy. and that's He's a wild man.
00:49:26
Speaker
So shoot to thrill, we've already talked about, too but do we want to delve into it a little bit more? Because I think the face replacement's really cool. like if it's ah these The show's like $12 to $15 million dollars an episode. Oh my gosh. And they reuse some footage and this and all that stuff. But like man, getting being able to, on a TV budget, do face replacement that looks pretty seamless. Is that ah is that a regular TV budget? No. Like millions per episode? Oh, well. It sounds outrageous.
00:49:55
Speaker
Well, what did you well in the 60s, the show costs like three hundred thousand an episode, an episode and next generation. It got up to like one, two or three million. Oh, my gosh. I had no idea. Is this is this including buting everybody or is this? OK, this is including everyone's. OK, that makes more sense.
00:50:11
Speaker
Um, but that all that said, like a severance is 20 million an episode, which is outrageous. Like the, the average TV episode, like on network TV. So that's like a good comparison through history. I think the average right now is somewhere between five and six, maybe seven, if it's an older show million per episode now, that's like the average.
00:50:35
Speaker
Primetime television watching without all these extra special effects and stuff sitcoms may sometimes are less because it's just they cost less to make Yeah, kovat has added 5% to every budget, you know and inflation and all that stuff Yeah, I think this I think strange new worlds is actually closer to 8 or 10 Which explains why it doesn't look as good as discovery because discovery was one of the premium ones so this is the like Paramount's not going to probably make a show for this much anymore unless Starfleet Academy is getting that slot. So it's like kind of like slots of like, this is our premium show. House of the Dragon doesn't cost as much as Game of Thrones, but towards the end of the Game of Thrones, it was costing.
00:51:17
Speaker
in the realm of 12 to 15 or 16 million an episode. Yeah. So it's pretty nuts. But anyway yeah they have, they have the money to do some pretty seamless, uh, 3d modeling work to, you know, how we were used to seeing split screen when it's actors playing the same part. This does not look like that at all.
00:51:34
Speaker
No. It was a very cool sequence. ah the This is very parent trap, but like better. And I was so impressed because if you... That's kind of mean, but I know what you're saying. No, I like parent trap. This wasn't supposed to be an insult. I like parent trap and I like parent trap because they did this. They had the same actor actress due to roles side by side, which I just thought was neat. Even in the original parent trap, I was like, that's neat. That's a neat idea. You could have just gotten twins, but this is neat.
00:52:00
Speaker
It's the interaction, though, that you don't usually get to see on a TV budget. the way that And the way that they get 360 around them, that's all stuff that we don't use. Yeah, it's extremely difficult. and And I noticed in this episode, every time they ended a but ended up back in the ready room, if you notice Burnham and Rayner were always like 10 feet away from each other. So whenever there was like the glitches and the changes or whatever, i'm I'm guessing it just made the special effects a lot easier if the two weren't standing near each other.
00:52:27
Speaker
Um, it's actually simpler than that. They have to fill that 16 by nine widescreen frame for the TVs. So it's just a way of. making the shot look remotely interesting to also establish that they're in a new location because the they just have a lot more real estate to cover. okay it shows that It's like just the way they start the set. So so it was weird, but that's what you we usually see in parent trap, right? You see the two like being very far away from each other for the most part. And then when they're side by side, you see like the back of one's head or something just to make it easier. But this was like a full on fight where you could see both faces at the same time. This was this was amazing. It was really special. This was one of my
00:53:05
Speaker
um I had a lot of a lot of shoot to thrills ah for me because the show is just so beautiful um But other than the fight which I loved it was the the spider See how they did that the spider because it was a spy and it was spider um The spider was very cool when it melted into the bulkheads and I know it's all CGI and like whatever but it was still neat it was just still neat that it was a it was a quote-unquote bug that was literally a bug and it was a spider and I love every time I dissolved because I didn't know I Was it like transporting itself? Was it melting? Was it like entering the system? And i just I love the questions that that particular visual raised, which typically visuals don't raise questions. They're just like, especially on this show, they're just pretty, or they're just interesting, or they're just dangerous. um But I really loved that. That still happened to me. I was like, if this thing is supposed to be so stealth, why are why is everyone able to hear it? Both ah both Adira and Stamets react to it.
00:54:02
Speaker
they can hear it and see it, basically. And so it's like, it's not that quiet. Also, if it suckles from the power, it seems like cutting the power and then getting it while it tries to find a new energy source would be the thing that would be the way to defeat it, but. I didn't totally understand what it was doing exactly there. Like was it power? It was powering itself and the time jumps by the ship's energy. so So when they said until it runs out of power, they meant until the ship runs out of power, not until the bug runs out of power.
00:54:33
Speaker
because I thought they were saying that was so my hour that was my assumption. big That's the way it was phrased because if it's attaching to an energy source, that seems to me that it's not about its own energy source that's doing stuff.
00:54:48
Speaker
See, I thought it attached to that spot of the ship because that's how it made the ship move. You know, like attaching to the nacelles or something to like make the ship move. They didn't indicate that that was a part of it. They didn't indicate that that's what it was doing because they they obviously time jumped to when it was not yet completed. But that the velocity of the ship did impact the duration of the of the time that they were there. yeah An interesting thought that I'm not sure. I think it works as a as a theory. Did it work in practice? Because I guess in theory, the time when the ship is not moving would be the longest time, because in the other time periods where they have a long time, the implication is the ship's at impulse or an orbit or something.
00:55:32
Speaker
And it has to go to warp, right? When they when they go and she enlists the the bridge crew um that the ship is pretty not, it's not warp. So the time jump has a longer period. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It was a fun episode to do. I like that they didn't go too deep into the weeds with how the bug works because I like it just being kind of magic. like what And then the elephant disappears. Amazing. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? I don't know. I said how to deal with the time bug, question mark.
00:56:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this question we usually like to use as like from this episode, if this gets put in a classroom, what's going to be the lesson? But we should at least hopefully they're still teaching about the temporal prime directive and start with Academy. It's pretty important that the fact that that they were very concerned with it at all. And I saw them try to take actions.
00:56:21
Speaker
to mean like, uh, that was one of the things Stamet says. He's like, I was spending so much time trying not to alter the past, but I didn't have time to fix the time. But like, I thought that was, that was great. That all makes sense. It felt very honest. Um, I guess I, the, what they will teach is this revolutionary idea, Cherise, of connecting to your crew, which had never been done before. No, I'm just kidding. But I think they will teach the value of interpersonal relationships. If you consider.
00:56:51
Speaker
that a lot of people who go into Starfleet, yes, there's the always the adventure seekers and, you know, that want to leave earth or whatever, but they're mostly scientists. That's the primary thrust of being a Starfleet officer. And at least here in the 21st century, scientists, engineers, they have a still have a reputation of being, if not antisocial, very specialized in how they behave towards the broader community.
00:57:19
Speaker
And you can see that still persisting to some degree. So I think in terms of a lesson, like it's not just an anthropological situation. You know, it's more like you, even though discovery and strange worlds makes it seem like you can jump around the galaxy.
00:57:35
Speaker
No problem. They're actual real submarine conceit, but also even warp travel. It takes a long time to get between stars. It takes a long time to do your missions, whether it's five years or whatever. It makes sense that if you're participating in an organization whose primary goal is ah human exploration and expansion and evolution that the human journey experience, like connecting to your fellow humans is going to be very important. So I think as much as I i put it as a worst trek trip, the labeling of connect to your crew,
00:58:10
Speaker
I think Starfleet Academy would very much teach like the very much real importance of, if not, camaraderie and our personal skills. Yeah. And I think those skills are always important, actually. I think they're important for anyone, anywhere, anytime. um And then they are especially important when you're trapped with other people you need to work with. So even if it's not on a ship traveling for days, weeks, months, years, you know, I'm, I'm part of jury duty right now. So that's like trapped in a ship, you know, for however many days. And it's like, if you don't have interpersonal skills can make the journey quite unpleasant. Um, or, you know, it could be bland. It could be nothing, but if you have good interpersonal skills, it can make the journey at least bearable, sometimes even enjoyable. So I completely, completely agree with you.
00:58:55
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? I think my answer for this question is always going to be the same. Yes, it could have. Could it have made it better? ah Maybe. Well, for this one, I said yes and yes, because if that scene between Burnham and Book is 10% hornier, is the is there a kiss that they allow? Because we will get into this pretty soon that we'll learn ah more about how Burnham is feeling about her relationship with Book. We know that if you've already seen the season, we kind of know how that all works out.
00:59:34
Speaker
He's obviously into her because why not? She's hot and she's the captain. You know, so it's like it makes sense if that scene is 10 percent more is there. But I get it. Why they didn't go in any particular direction in that moment. They just left as like a little soft touch. But I think if we were all allowed to see a kiss between them, we are allowed to see her not be so. Weird, comfortable, weird. Yeah, uncomfortable. And that would have been fine.
01:00:03
Speaker
um especially I mean she's a smart woman and she's temporal prime directive surely she could have acted better but I know they were doing it for our sake to be like oh but they're not a thing anymore and now it's weird between her but like she's acting like she's past Burnham so just like act you know exactly I don't know she could have just totally gone with it like so overboard and then walked out and been like oh hope I'm not caught for that you know what I mean Yep. Oh, you know what? You just reminded me. Well, will they teach that Starfleet ah cadets have to be theater kids because they had that they had to pretend to be. This is a constant reminder that we bring up. And I hope when Starfleet Academy comes out, they will show them taking acting classes because.
01:00:43
Speaker
as like a side thing because it's so helpful if you can act at all as a Starfleet officer. You can pull off secret missions. You can like lie your way through time jumps. Exactly. So it's very important school to have. All right. So Trek, marry or kill face the strange. Okay. So for me,
01:01:02
Speaker
um This is a trek, but it's a really high trek, like very high. Last week's trek was a very low trek. Like if they would have done one more thing wrong, it would have been a kill. Like it was like the borderline, right? This for me is like a very high trek. I really love this episode. And like I said before, I think if I was a big Discovery fan, I would have loved it even more. And my only criticism I have is that they didn't find the next clue.
01:01:27
Speaker
And the reason why that's a criticism is because I don't want to do a whole nother episode on the next effing clue. So my hope, and you know, you could spoil it or not, but my hope is that they find the next clue between this episode and next episode. So when the next episode shows up, they'll just be like, good thing we found them after that creative time bug. Off to the next clue. We're not going to be happy. But um but I mean, it'd be nice to have done two clues in an episode. Don't waste an episode. I just like.
01:01:53
Speaker
find the clue at the end or tell me you're gonna find it or what's that over there? I don't know like that that was my only criticism is that in this whole 10 episodes of the clue trail this was an entire episode without a clue like yeah so that means we have to do more of this I kind of think that's why the episode is so successful even so Oh, that's why I said I want them to find it between episodes. Like, don't just tell me later. Like, oh, yeah, we found it more than the dots located, blah, blah, blah. It looks like we got our next clue. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been the perfect ending. The last scene to be like, oh, captain, the dots have come back. They found our next clue. We're heading to Zeta Prime. Yeah. Off we go. Let's fly. That would have been like the perfect ending to that. That probably would have made it a marry.
01:02:36
Speaker
So my question was going, I guess I should have asked this first was, is a great episode of Discovery, a great episode of television? Because I think the serialization has worked against Discovery for the most part. And here we see an episode that is Effectively, a standalone episode. It's like in a great tradition of Deep Space Nine, it's like a side adventure to the larger overarching plot. And look listen to us, or a hold this whole hour, we've been excited to talk about it. We've been gushing. Gushing about it. And it's like, what makes a Mary to me is like, and for me personally, is that it can cross over into being a great episode of television. And I'm not sure if Discovery can get there for whatever reason. And i as we've talked about it,
01:03:21
Speaker
I'm with you. It's a very strong trek, but I guess I'm trying to say like after talking about it even more for an hour. So we're in agreement. I'm like, why isn't it a Mary? That's why maybe I kind of want to ask you like, why isn't it a Mary?
01:03:33
Speaker
Well, so for me, A Mary is not a great episode of television of all time. It's still in the Trek universe. And to me, A Mary is something that I like so much that I will watch it over and over and over and still love it. yeah So whatever qualities it has, whatever whatever it may be, whether it's the characters or the time loops or whatever the heck is going on in this episode, whatever ingredients went into this dish, I will enjoy it every single day.
01:03:57
Speaker
And this episode's really good, but I can't see myself watching it over and over and over with the same level of enjoyment each time. um And I think it's because there's no because I'm not a huge Discovery fan. i There's not those layers for me to go back into. But let's talk about one of the episodes that this episode is inspired by, um which is Shattered, right, from from Voyager. That's right. Now, in that episode,
01:04:19
Speaker
as they're jumping through all the different times and all the things that the ship has been through, it actually feels like, ah we we're we're also moving forward in the story, right? We see little Naomi Wildman is now like Lieutenant Wildman and she's still on the ship and she's still serving aboard. And she's with Echeb and like, it's like, it's not just, isn't this a cool thing we did five years ago? It's like a bigger universe that this episode is playing into. And then like, you know, Cesca had the ship, but she lost the ship. So this time she's gonna take the ship. I don't know. It's like, we get to see more about the characters.
01:04:49
Speaker
and their development and they're still developing even in this out of time place and it's got so many layers of enjoyment that I can watch it over and over and over and still love it every time. This one I think I would still love every time but I just think my level of enjoyment would go down and down because there's no there's no big character developments to me other than Rayner being like you know what interpersonal skills are important. like That's the big change, but Burnham isn't changing. We're seeing how she was and how she is, but she's not changing further in this episode. No other characters are are really in this episode. Stamets is, but he's not he's almost like a tool more than a character in this episode. He's just the warp drive. like He's not really... you know So we're not seeing any character development. We're not seeing any
01:05:33
Speaker
new bonds between the other members of the crew. We're not seeing like how they grew and how they developed. And, you know, we do see a moment where this character comes back who died and everyone's sad, you know, that she's going to die. You know, that's you know what? That's the reason why this episode can't be a Mary, because that scene does not work. The scene, the entire area a thing that the show has tried to do has been very forced, like trying to make her death so weighty and meaningful. Yeah. Has always felt like we need to have a death that's weighty and meaningful, not like we actually care. Like Ousaka dying or Debra dying would have had more of an impact.
01:06:14
Speaker
then Arium dying, but they pulled their punch because they don't want to actually lose someone they like. They want to create someone we think will like, or that the crew will like, and then kill them off as like an extra level part of it. And then now show us how the crew is. So even though in a world I can respect why we're supposed to care that they care, the audience doesn't actually care. And so we get this entire sequence where in the reality of the universe, this mutineer comes on board, it comes onto the bridge.
01:06:42
Speaker
says actually I'm from the future and this person's gonna die and she's like that sounds great and they're like they could they can't believe that ah one of their own would sacrifice themselves to the way exactly like we would stop her or we would prevent that from happening and they just can't believe it and so that my thing is when they when the guy pulls the gun on Burnham it is just like stop saying she's gonna die I'm gonna shoot you in the face how is that gonna solve the problem that was such a weird yeah So my component is, is it a great episode of television also comes along with like, is it a great episode of Star Trek? In my mind, to cross over into Mary, it's like, it's unassailable. Like, do I want to watch City on the Edge of Forever all the time? Does it make me happy? No, because Edith Keeler dies at the end.
01:07:27
Speaker
And it's very sad and Kirk's very sad. But that is objectively an amazing episode of television. It is so well done.
Rewatchability and Episode Ranking
01:07:34
Speaker
It's so great. Like it's that's kind of the part of it. So the rewatch ability is always a factor, but it's like not as important to me as like, does this do even does it transcend what it's trying to do? This episode does do that, I think, because the performances are so strong. But but if not for that Arium scene, I think this would make it an absolute stone cold. It doesn't matter. This is probably still probably one of the three best episodes of Discovery. and And at least as far as I can at the top of my head, it's one that comes to mind. There might be some recency bias, but it's it's objectively a really strong track of an episode. I'm glad we talked it through. I'm so bummed we didn't get a clue in that we have to do this again. I just am so
Technological Confusion and Stakes
01:08:17
Speaker
bummed. But do you know what? I'm just so bummed about the whole chase experience. like
01:08:21
Speaker
I still feel like, hopefully they're gonna explain this, but I still feel like I don't understand why the technology can be devastating. Like I know they're like in the wrong hands. It could do danger, but I want them to say like, not only does this technology create life, but it also destroys life and it can destroy it selectively. Kind of how the crinum could do that with their time ship. They could destroy an entire people with like him one blast of their home world. Oh, Stamets kind of. and He says something, but he he says like it could bring Yeah, through he's like like really bad. Yeah. Yeah. He says like, it's really bad and it could like bring a lot of destruction. But I i want to know, like, well, we talked about this in the first episode, like, what is the jeopardy? Like, what yeah is the problem? Like we saw a picture of what would happen if the Ark of the Covenant was was used to follow the Indiana Jones line. And we don't get that here. So we are kind of left with this nebulous it could be bad.
01:09:18
Speaker
And I also ah wondered, why didn't the scientists just destroy it instead of making a scavenger hunt over the galaxy? Question one, why find it? But you found it. Okay. Question two, it's so deadly. One guy died. We can't possibly keep this technology around. So then question two, why not destroy it?
01:09:38
Speaker
Right. But instead, we're going to hide it and define somebody who's worthy to find it, to use it. But oh, no, it's going to be in the wrong hand. So now it's like, I don't know, I just think all of that is really stupid. And if this is like your main thrust for all the episodes, you got to make it not stupid. You got to make me care that this is like, oh, they they got it. Yeah, you've got to make it the Ark of the Covenant. You've got to make it so Indiana Jones absolutely has to win over the Nazis. He has to win. Like you have to make it. Give me those stakes. And I still don't feel that and we're halfway through.
01:10:06
Speaker
Yeah. So maybe next
Anticipation for Upcoming Episodes
01:10:08
Speaker
episode. Maybe ah next week we will be returning to Star Trek Discovery. We'll be dealing with the episode mirrors, judging that one. There's going to be another clue.
01:10:22
Speaker
Wait, you said one episode has two clues, right? Is that the next episode? Do we get two clues? Well, actually, my my statement was, because I actually cannot remember now, is like, it would be nice if they had just done an episode where there was two clues, because why not? You got my hopes up. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't believe there was two clues in the next one. Dang it.
Social Media and Content Promotion
01:10:40
Speaker
Well, I appreciate you all for listening, but, you know, you don't just have to listen to Charisse on this podcast. You can find her at her various social outlets, Charisse.
01:10:49
Speaker
Yeah, you can find me on TikTok with AtTheSciFiSavage, or you can join me every week for my live streams on YouTube, AtTheSciFiSavage, where we talk all things Star Trek. All right, and if you're enjoying the show, consider rating and reviewing us wherever you listen. On social media, we're TrekMaryKPod, and so until next week, TMK out.