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TNG: "The Inner Light" (s5e25) with Michael Baumann of FanGraphs and Wheelysports
164 Plays27 days ago
A FLUTE OCCURRENCE. Captain Picard gets zapped into a simulation where he must live out a whole other life as a man on a dying planet. It turns out this has a profound effect on the captain of the Federation flagship, but it's something the franchise barely revisited after what many consider to be the show's finest hour. Do Bryan and guest co-host Michael Baumann agree?
The grades begin at (29:03).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host Backgrounds
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Picard, probe, flute, engage. A mystery of unknown origin. Record is six not my life. Destined to spend eternity on a doomed planet. You simply cannot let this civilization die. Until fate. Came it. Strikes a fatal blow. The captain is under attack. I'm losing it. On Star Trek, the next generation.
00:00:44
Speaker
Welcome to Trek Mary Kill. I'm Brian, a podcaster who didn't know I needed Star Trek to complete my life. Now I couldn't imagine my life without it. And joining me this week is Michael Bauman, writer for the baseball site, fan graphs, and the cycling world site, Wheelie Sports.
00:01:00
Speaker
A returning guest last heard on Take Me Out to the Hollow Suite for Deep Place Nine and Among the Lotus Eaters for Strange New Worlds. Michael, welcome back. Thank you for having me. I really, like I said before we started recording, feel like I owed you an episode that has been met with general acclaim.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I did kind of grave about among the lot lotus eaters when I was on here last time. So thank you for not punishing me, and you know, making me pick something or making me take something that, ah you know, sort your dominance, I guess.
00:01:33
Speaker
my My thinking for that was that I required balance, fairness in the proceedings as i we worked our way to judgment, because sometimes I have blinders. And sometimes the Eric Ortega storyline is something that would ordinarily make me loathe the thing I was watching.
00:01:51
Speaker
I think we did a good job, though, determining what's going
Themed Month: Inner Lights
00:01:55
Speaker
on there. But ah on Trek Mary Kill here, we're kicking off a new themed month called Inner Lights, episodes that put our captains in a new identity that shows us the side of them we'd never see otherwise. And so what better way to start off a theme month like that than with the original Inner Light, The Inner Light, the 25th episode of Star Trek Next Generation's fifth season. It premiered in syndication on June 1st, 1992.
00:02:20
Speaker
ah A date that just seems impossible to me now. Anyway, it was written by Morgan Gendl and Peter Allen Fields from a story by Morgan Gendl. I believe it's Morgan Gendl, but I don't know. Look, this was I've kept seeing that name on Star Trek credits, and this is the first time I've realized it wasn't Morgan Gendl.
00:02:41
Speaker
yeah sir
00:02:44
Speaker
Well, he was getting too many questions about the story, and he's like, I don't know anything about Beowulf. I don't know. Yeah. it' it Just sit back. Please don't tear off my arm. That's right. ah Directed by Peter Lauritsen, who is a longtime ah supervising producer. That's a name we'd see all the time watching next generation. Definitely.
00:03:05
Speaker
Memory Alpha
Plot Summary of 'The Inner Light'
00:03:06
Speaker
describes it. An alien probe controls and disables Captain Picard, who wakes up as Cayman, a resident of the planet Catan. While the crew of the Enterprise tries to jar the probe's influence, Cayman lives through the final dying decades of his home world in the span of approximately 20 minutes in the form of an interactive, quote, ancestor simulation, which that's a label Memory Alpha gave it, which is not uttered in the episode.
00:03:33
Speaker
But I thought that was interesting. and And if they had said that in the episode, I think it would have made the episode seem very silly. Yes. Not very literary, but it's descriptive for much better for a wiki than and in dialogue. So.
00:03:48
Speaker
Yeah. What memory of isn't telling us about this whole thing is, well, it's actually pretty, pretty straightforward description. Picard as Cayman actually has a wife. He winds up having two children. He takes a very long time to let go of this Picard identity and embrace the Cayman identity that's been thrust upon him by the simulation. But once he does, he basically becomes a ah a genteel patriarch, I guess is probably the
2025 Resonance and Brian's Reflections
00:04:17
Speaker
way to put it. ah and And it's supposed to be a very sad episode, but when i what I guess I'm surprised by is the way this episode now, 33 years later, is that they're the interstellar vibes
00:04:33
Speaker
that are in this episode. yeah And I was not expecting that on this rewatch. And I did not go and rewatch Interstellar when they did the IMAX rerelease recently. It just struck me while watching it. And how oddly resonant this episode is here in 2025. Michael, do you remember the first time you saw this episode? And do you feel like you felt any of that? I definitely didn't watch it when I was, I guess I would have been five years old when it came out. I watched a lot of Star Trek The Next Generation with my dad when when it was first run, I think the first time I saw it was after having read about it, like already knowing that that it was one of the best regarded episodes of Star Trek. So I probably would have been in my late teens, early 20s when, you know, this stuff was starting to show up on Netflix. And so, you know, I was prepared for it to be this ah really ambitious literary episode of television. And I you know think it
00:05:31
Speaker
you know, the greatest of all time is is a label that that some people throw around for it. And I think that's a really tough thing to live up to, but it's definitely like... It strikes me, it's very old school science fiction. This feels like you're reading a short story in some sort of a magazine or a serial. This is a trope that, or maybe trope is pejorative, but it's a storytelling construction that Star Trek keeps going back to is you live a whole life within what you think of as reality. A blink of an eye. Yeah.
00:06:09
Speaker
they keep going back to it because it's a really compelling idea of like using, you know, throwing your own life experience into a different reality and getting to learn ah an existence other than your own. Because I think, you know, we all fantasize about what if everything was different? Or, you know, if if I didn't only have one life to live,
Character Development Insights
00:06:29
Speaker
how would I do things? And, and so that's ah like a very appropriate well to keep going back to. And this was,
00:06:36
Speaker
um You know, ambition is probably not the the right word for it because it's a very self-contained episode that just, it just flies by. um You know, there's not a whole lot of like sets or guest stars or anything like that, but i it's sparseness, I think, allows you to project your own imagination onto the world building. um And in a way that I think that's what makes this this episode so effective.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, I watched it when it first aired, so I was 11 years old, and it's not some it's on an episode for 11-year-olds, I don't think. But if you care about Captain Picard, which I did, I'm definitely ah main character whore. i'm like I'm focused on the main character of every show, which is why you know Buffy. Buffy is my favorite character because she's the main character. and I love the other characters, but you know, just that kind of thing. I've always been that way. So what's going on with Captain Picard? And I think you're right. It's very sparse and it relies on the tension of when's he going to get back to being Captain Picard? Like when's the Star Trek going to reassert itself? I promise the interstellar connection
Production Details and Creative Intentions
00:07:45
Speaker
is not based on just the time dilation, the dying planet.
00:07:48
Speaker
is the other part of it, which is oddly resonant today. I didn't think this episode would feel so imminent here in 2025, and yet it really does. yeah Kind of alarming. um This episode did have a bit of a torture development I want to talk about in a second, but I want to actually expand on this idea of its resonance. So Ron Moore,
00:08:11
Speaker
ah writer or extraordinaire said in an AOL chat, I've always felt that the experience in Interlight would have been the most profound experience in Picard's life and changed him irrevocably. However, that wasn't our intention when we were creating the episode. We were after a good hour of TV and the larger implications of how this would really screw somebody up didn't hit home with us until later.
00:08:31
Speaker
That's sometimes a danger in TV or so focused on just getting the show produced every week that sometimes you suffer from the can't see the forest for the tree syndrome. We never intended the show to completely upend this character and force a radical change in the series. So we contented ourselves with the single follow up in lessons.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:53
Speaker
I mean, Patrick Stewart will speak to that element later. I'll mention that in the notes. But I guess my question is, well, first, isn't it funny how much of TV has been made in this fashion? Profound events for characters that are then brushed aside for next week. It's so it's really funny. Like the Star Trek example I keep coming back to is like, um is Worf going back and forth between Deep Space Nine and the the next generation movies? like Like, Worf gets married, and like, you know, you think he'd invite Commander Riker, for instance. They tried to, they were like, we can, they, for the wedding, they were like, we can get most of the cast, but what are we gonna do, have like Patrick Stewart show up as just like, ah on an iPad? Like, then they were just like, because we can't get everybody, we're not gonna do it. So they at least tried in that sense, but yes, you're right. Or, um you know, he shows up in in insurrections and everybody's, you know, like, oh, Worf, great to see you. Nobody's like, man, your wife died since the last time we saw you, like. The way it's treated, in fact, is a moment I guffawed louder than anyone in the theater was Picard simply goes, Mr. Worf, what the hell are you doing here?
00:10:08
Speaker
and Like you imagine the, like them spending hours or days in the, you know, in the writer's room. yeah I don't know if they had a writer's room for for a movie, but ah trying to think of what plot contrivance could could we use? Because I think in in First Contact, it's actually a a pretty reasonable yeah a way to get Worf back on the enterprise, but it's just like, what the hell are you doing here? We don't need anything else for...
00:10:32
Speaker
So, but anyway, Picard, talking about like the things that would really mess you up that Picard experiences, a lot of the strongest episodes, in particular, the strongest Picard episodes are ones where they take him out of this ah very like put together stentorian, like,
00:10:55
Speaker
yeah you know I talked about the different types of Star Trek dads the last time I was on. You you take them outside of that sort of unflappable ah remote dad and really, you know,
00:11:07
Speaker
this this was a guy who used to be an impulsive young man who you know was an athlete and and you know it spent 25 years in love with his dead best friend's wife who's you know is now his direct report and and it's been assimilated by the Borg and stuff like that and you know you take ah you know uh family i guess is the best example example of this in next generation but you show him as someone who's more vulnerable and complex than the um then I guess the structure of the show ordinarily
Picard's Character Exploration
00:11:41
Speaker
makes him ah out to be. And that's why, you know, you mentioned you're a Picard guy. And for that reason, like I've have always been more of a Riker and and data guy because they allow those characters to be a little bit more, you know, while remaining that sort of very uptight complex or uptight competent kind of of person. Both of them are
00:12:00
Speaker
are shown in in a constant state of growth in a way that Picard usually isn't allowed to be. And so when you like get inside his head a little bit, that makes for some of the most effective TV in the and the entire series, and i I think. And so I think you can read into later things in in Picard's life as having been affected by the events of The Inner Light, but it's not really explicitly stated, except for the Picard Gets a Girlfriend episode ah in the next season.
00:12:28
Speaker
I totally agree. and and And I think Patrick Stewart simply plays the character differently after this. Yeah. And that's what's informing it. And he kind of speaks to that later. But I just because I want to just touch on this point, I like to kind of what is the episode conceptually or thematically bring up for the viewer, especially after all this time has passed?
00:12:47
Speaker
Because to me, ah watching it ah in my 40s versus watching my 11 when I was 11 is a completely different experience. um I'm not a parent yet, but you know to what extent does being a parent ah change someone and is there sort of a baseline for that change? In other words, like there are people who are reluctant parents, but they necessarily change to incorporate simply if they're going to be around.
00:13:12
Speaker
Even if they're bad parents, like they have to do different things. They have to live a certain life. There's sort of like a baked in level of change that happens. And I guess what I'm saying is like we see Picard embrace it basically because what else is he going to do? just But also it just sort of it resonates in that regard. I don't know. Are you parent? No, no children on the bridge for me. yeah ah But there's no, you know, I think that's a big element to this of what happened. I guess settling down is maybe the better answer of like, what's the life that you build for yourself when you're not reaching for some goal or, you know, you're not the captain of a starship. You're not the leader of industry. Like, what's the life you make for yourself? I think that's what's so intriguing about these inner lights now. And basically all of these, it's being thrust on our captain and it's how they're reacting to that. um That's interesting.
00:14:03
Speaker
But I think I don't know. Do you feel like that is some that's the reason why this episode resonated at the time and even then is like a lot of basically parents, adults, people who have lived some version of this are reacting to it. And I think that's something that Picard is.
00:14:21
Speaker
I think over time he goes from no I'm a career man I'm married to my work like I don't have time for relationships or children I don't particularly like children and after this you see you know in generations when he's taken into the Nexus what is you know he's married with a huge family and I think it There might be a, this is something my therapist told me once, that if you're not getting your emotional ah emotional needs met, you'll try to convince yourself that you don't have those emotional needs in the first place, and that you made the choice to do without certain things that you really want. And I think that you know having a ah family is something that Picard goes from,
00:15:05
Speaker
saying he doesn't want to sort of recognizing that own desire. and you know I don't know if the the switch gets flipped right here, but it's i that would have to be a- I read it as the switch was flipped here, yeah and I think it's a big missed opportunity. I'm so surprised.
00:15:22
Speaker
You know, I guess I can think about Star Trek Picard, but there was actually quite a bit more next generation stories between this and Star Trek Picard season, any of Star Trek Picard seasons. The fact that he just goes to diet, wither on the vine and die in this vineyard and all that stuff.
00:15:37
Speaker
And season three, like he's you know so reluctant even then in Crusher knew that he wouldn't be in having children. It's like it's right here. This episode that's lauded that Michael Chabon even says is one of his favorite episodes. And none of that. Like, did you watch it or do you just remember it? Because it's like if you went back and rewatch the episode and you're trying to like mine Picard episodes to figure out what you're going to do with the next phase of its life. It's kind of right here. And there's kind of a version where it's like, what if Picard's like, hey, I've retired from Starfleet. Captain Kirk told me not to. And guess what? I'm so happy. I have a family. I'm doing whatever. And then they're like, guess what? Space dad, you're needed again. And he's like, well, I was pretty happy here. And you know, there's a whole version where that happens. But I guess that's not grim and gritty. But I also wanted to point out one last thing that this episode reminded me of.
00:16:25
Speaker
ah having worked in television, having having worked ah for veteran showrunners, having heard horror stories and positive stories. There is a version of the story that it's kind of like the showrunners lament of like, I'm doing these TV shows, these TV shows take 20 hours a day, six days a week of my life, eight to 10 months out of the year, I wish I could live the family life. and have a normal life instead of being the captain of a ship. There is some element of that in there. I think that's why, to get to our next bit here, Michael Pillar had this idea that ah Picard should experience an unlived life. And so this episode had kind of ah an interesting development story I'll tell real quick.
00:17:08
Speaker
Brandon Braga, Joe Manaski tried to crack the story. They couldn't do it. Then one day they heard this great pitch from Morgan Gendl about this Alien Pro beaming scenario, an ancestor simulation, I guess, into Picard and Riker's brains. And they're both in a coma. This is like classic seasons one and two when Roddenberry was still really involved of like, it's always Picard and Riker, the older Gene Roddenberry and the younger Gene Roddenberry. There's a lot of stories. But basically, they have to complete the simulation to get out of their comas.
00:17:37
Speaker
And instead, Brandon Braga and the other writers, they were like, this might work for that Michael Pillar idea that he's been trying to get us to do. So what was great was when Morgan Gendl pitched a story, they kind of helped him out. Morgan Gendl then goes in to pitch a story in front of Michael Pillar. and And the whole time, they're like, yes, they're like playing it. It's K-Fade. They're like, yes, this is great. This is amazing, yeah. And they're trying to amp up the story to the point that Michael Pillar is like, well, everyone loves this idea. Let's go for it. And then he helps him develop it some
Origins of the Episode
00:18:06
Speaker
more. And it wasn't until years later that Michael Pillar figured out and it was a shrod. It was an elaborate ruse. But I thought that was a cute story.
00:18:14
Speaker
Gendel's story was also, as it developed, and this obviously after the Picard, Riker, Koma thing, and it was just a Picard story, it kind of started to filter in this idea of a Holocaust situation and an alien species that had died via nuclear annihilation. They were basically trying to send a message of like, don't end it, you know, here's a warning. Don't let your civilization end this way. And obviously turned into this, which is just as frightening. The slow death is ah It's just as frightening, I think. oh it's says I think it's worse. the yeah I found myself wishing to, the you know, Picard and Riker go back to prevent, or to you know, ah prevent another society's nuclear war. Is it interesting?
00:18:58
Speaker
ah promise that I found myself wishing, well, yeah, I feel like I would have enjoyed that episode. I remembered that it's very similar to one of my favorite early Voyager episodes, which is the, um, I just looked it up and forgot the title. I think it's time and again, where Janeway and Tom Paris get trapped in a time loop and have to prevent space Chernobyl while wearing bright horizontal stripes.
00:19:24
Speaker
This is the whatever. So, yeah, I mean, like I said, it's it's a well they keep going back to, but it works like it's one of the best Star Trek things. Another aborted direction for this that I gotta mention is that this was also, there was also a version where there is it was like a simulation of a Federation member world of of like a dark chapter in their history that they had tried to bury. And I like those ideas. I always like when they're like, oh, we're where if clue were crossing the T's and dotting this the I's of this new potential Federation entry. And then they find out some horrible secret. It's so rare that they do those, but I like those. Those are fun too.
00:20:03
Speaker
um Also, I just want to point this out, I don't know if you knew this, the the two characters being thrust into some historical so ah simulation. Do you know that the original pitch for Past Tense, the Deep Space Nine episode where they with the sanctuary districts, started on Next Generation and it started as Picard and Geordi are dropped into the Watts rights. Oh, man.
00:20:28
Speaker
Can you imagine Patrick Stewart teaching people in what, Shakespeare, to deal with their problems or something? Because that's what wouldn it would have happened, I bet. I was just thinking like a lot of these alternative directions were like, well, that could be pretty interesting, but I'm glad we got you, but I really do think they made the right decision to to choose this direction. They sure did, Michael.
00:20:54
Speaker
Imagine if that comes out in like night in like early 1994 though, right before- Season of Next Generation was really bad, that was 1994.
00:21:08
Speaker
I guess Rodney King was 92, right? yeah Man, they dodged such a bullet there. ah sir ah Some other memory alpha notes before we get to the grades. While attending a production staff meeting during the making of this episode, Rick Sternbach drew on a script preliminary designs for the space station Deep Space Nine. So literally Deep Space Nine was born here in this episode. So this is a monumental episode in so many ways. ah Jade Chataway composed the music for this episode, including the Ruskin Flute. Oh, sorry, did you want to say something about the Deep Space Nine music?
00:21:43
Speaker
No, I was just, we're ah I want to talk, I have i have a rant about the flute. Okay, all right. you I can hold that until... Oh, that's coming right now. Jay Chataway composed the music for this episode, including the Resekan flute solo played by Kamen slash Picard. ah According to Jay Chataway, the flute was chosen because it's photogenic. His composition for the Resekan flute became one of the most requested pieces in the Paramount Pictures library. So...
00:22:11
Speaker
If the reskin flute is obviously like an Irish tin whistle situation, and these are diatonic instruments, which means they only play in one key, so I want to know if the reskins only make music in one key, or if they just left Picard one of what should be like 12 flutes that he should have, one for each you know, scale in the or one for each note in the scale, because there a a flute like, you know, one of these guys is is a chromatic instrument, you can play every note, but you can't do that on presumably rest conflute. So it's just, I'm very interested by the limits of of Mexican music theory as illustrated by the fact that they've only got one instrument with six holes.
00:22:58
Speaker
i think we're intended I think we're supposed to mean it's a space flu of some kind. that I mean, it's supposed to be pretty low tech. These people are not supposed to be like... They did make a ceramic spaceship that lasted a thousand years. Yeah.
00:23:13
Speaker
wrote like Just like, imagine young Bataille saying, I'm going to drop out of school to pursue my music. and like How much music can there possibly be? you you know you can't You have to play in D major your entire life. I don't know if this is a good thing about modern writing or ah a downside because someone might have pitched this in the writer's room and then you could have had a thematic resonant of Picard recognizing it's one note and then thematically he gets good at playing one note is basically what happens when it's a note he's never tried before and because that is something that that is a a motif throughout the episode is how he improves and it actually rubs off on the sun and all his real life son by the way Patrick Stewart's real life son plays the sun in the episode who gets the ultimate glow down
00:23:59
Speaker
I don't think we've ever heard of a Glade Down before. or they They made him bald for it. They give him hair and then they take it away. They take away the hair piece to really reveal his Patrick Stewart son. Patrick Stewart said that this episode presented the greatest acting challenge he faced in all seven seasons of TNG. He remembered, I'm having the earliest makeup call of any actor in the history of Star Trek. My makeup call on Monday was 1 a.m. My set call was 7 a.m. So I left home around about midnight.
00:24:28
Speaker
In another interview, Stuart recalled, the most affecting sequence was the one scene where I was with the actress who was playing my wife late one more meeting evening, sitting on a bench outside. I remember looking at her and thinking, this is what it feels like to be elderly, sitting on a bench with someone you know so well, and this is what lies ahead. That was the one time I had a sense of, God willing, what was waiting for me.
00:24:51
Speaker
Um, he marries so often, I don't know, pointy thing for someone who's been divorced as many times as Patrick Stewart has. I don't know. Can he ever really know someone he's constantly swapping out of? It's, you know, he can know what to say. Like he might know what it's like to be elderly and sit with your wife. It doesn't.
00:25:12
Speaker
yeah He didn't specify that his wife has to be elderly as well. Now, just to not be mean, it is interesting that some version of this is what he pitched for the very end of Star Trek Picard season
Michael Pillar's Favorite Episodes Discussion
00:25:24
Speaker
three. This was his original idea, was that Picard was just sitting and enjoying life, and they heard his then a wife calls for him off the screen. And of course they were like, no, we're not doing that.
00:25:35
Speaker
But that is what stuck in his mind. In an AOL l chat of his own, showrunner Michael Pillar, long after he was showrunner, I'm sure, named this episode, along with The Measure of a Man and the Offspring, as one of his favorite TNG episodes because all three had remarkable emotional impacts and they genuinely explored the human condition, which this franchise does better than any other when it does it well.
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah, I skipped the offspring when i when I watch Next Generation back, because i'm just I'm trying to cry for fun less. Yeah, the offspring is tough because it really should be considered when you're talking about the greatest episodes of Star Trek. It should be mentioned, but it's so sad. You don't even want to bring it up. Yeah. But ah that's true. and i don't I think it's interesting, because the measure of a man
00:26:29
Speaker
What's the emotion there? The rule of law, which you know in 2025 is just a joke. But I guess it's the it's that performance ah for sure. The offspring would know what it is. And the inner light, you know, ah sure.
00:26:44
Speaker
ah My 11-year-old self still hasn't quite shifted to the conventional wisdom. It's all I'm kind of getting at. I don't know if I'm tipping my hand, am I great? Star Trek TMG fans though, they voted this as the force fourth best episode of The Next Generation in the Star Trek the Next Generation Viewer's Choice Marathon, which aired the weekend of May 15th, 1994. I remember that very well.
00:27:08
Speaker
This episode won the 1993 Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation. It's the third of four Star Trek episodes to win the award and was the first television episode to win since the original Star Trek. The others are the Menagerie Part 1 and the Menagerie Part 2. Both parts were combined, also sitting on the edge of forever and all good things. Now, Star Trek's been nominated for many other Hugo Awards, most recently Subspace Rhapsody and Those Old Scientists.
00:27:31
Speaker
But it's I think it's pretty telling that the only winners are those four. yeah And if you were to single those out, that that's a pretty good quartet of ah Star Trek episodes. A cut above the other nominations, I would say. And then my last note here is the episode was nominated at the 45th Primetime Emmy Awards for Outstanding Individual Achievement in Makeup for a Series. Michael at Lost to Star Trek Deep Space Nine's Captive Pursuit.
00:27:57
Speaker
tough break. Oh, the task episode. That's right. I would i would say that didn't have better that is one of the episodes of Deep Space Nine when I think to the first season, that is one of the first episodes I remember. And that is basically Predator. um But what if Starfleet intervened with a Predator hunt? What if Chief O'Brien was in the middle of a Predator movie? I thought that was a tough break. But also it's this episode's makeup is that comically that TV old age makeup that's just comically bad. I don't think. The task makeup, I think, was impressive at the time and has, if you'll forgive me, aged better than the light old age makeup. That is a worthy pun. I love this episode, but but i I can't bring it within me or can't ah find it within me to root against task, so. All right, let's get into the grades. ah Great scenes. How many did you have?
00:28:55
Speaker
I had maybe I had two. There's the first the first time that um Picard and or came in and Aline sit down together and she's telling him about his life and he eats the soup and that's the first time he really starts to.
00:29:16
Speaker
um I guess, consider the possibility that this is a life he might want to live. I thought that was just a really nice, understated, um really well-written and acted scene. And then the the last one with the the rocket launch and the you know when they're sending the probe into space, I thought that was a ah really good a combination of everything they've been building toward toward in the in the episode. So I gotta to say, I don't know if you realize this and maybe you already know this, but eating while acting is incredibly difficult. So is Patrick Stewart showing off here? I don't know.
00:29:53
Speaker
but that man is acting very well. like Like the memorable part of that scene is how he's eating the soup. He's so hungry because he's been yeah in a daze hiking the mountains. So he's hungry, he's thirsty, he's tired, and he's having an identity crisis. So he's eating that soup with such, you know, famine. basically He's so hungry, but also he's so trying to have a grasp on reality. No one has ever been feeling more emotions at the same time.
00:30:23
Speaker
the most emotional bullshit ever experienced. ah So that alone is what stick stuck in my mind, even when I was 11, but also that's just great acting and that scene in it. I love the emotion of him being Picard investigating. And then she's like, Don't you want to know about us? He's like, Sure, anything you can provide.
00:30:43
Speaker
You know, that is a scene that actually when I was just thinking about the line of questioning, that that's a scene I could see Janeway doing as well. And and I always like when you can imagine these moments and other Star Trek's because I kind of think Star Trek is its own genre. I don't like the idea that it can borrow like the aesthetics of other genres, but it's really its own thing. And ah just him being such a scientist about it, even in the face, it's like an extra level that we know that Picard is not usually an emotional person. So it's like it's a funny moment as well. To your last moment.
00:31:21
Speaker
that I have those two scenes, but I have a few more, but I want to talk about the launch seek scene real fast.
Direction and Emotional Impact
00:31:27
Speaker
That I think that was a great scene and I think it was really solid, but I think I hate to do this, but I don't think it hit the mark direction wise. And I have a theory about why, but basically we need to know that this was a profound experience for Picard and we kind of basically do. However, what's missing is In the end, it's this old man, and he sees two people from his past who have died, and they come to him. And the one, he he's shocked to see his friend, fine, but then his wife reappears, his dead wife reappears. And I think he should have had tears in his eyes and gone up and hugged her.
00:32:08
Speaker
And when he split to word been yeah he when he's holding her and crying, he sees the rocket launch, and he steps away from her, and then she says her line, and then he wakes up. Now, possibly, they were like, nobody can touch this makeup.
00:32:26
Speaker
yeah that's what i was going to say If anyone gets within half a meter or half an inch of it, it falls apart. It just looks right off. You can't cry on the makeup. It'll melt.
00:32:39
Speaker
You can't even breathe on it. Patrick Stewart, hold your breath. But I think that's what was missing from that scene to really say, wow, that we've never seen Picard do any of this. And this is a pretty big moment. And I think it's not melodrama. It's just we needed to see that one extra step to really connect it to the ending even more, because all that's left is what you said. This is like a sci-fi short story. All we have left is that simple sci-fi,
00:33:07
Speaker
story twist and what science fiction writers usually are missing is the emotion. and So there we go. But I have those two scenes. ah Go ahead. What else do you have? um Picard asked Aline for permission to build a nursery, because um even though there's like a head to that scene I didn't really like, I did like then Patrick Stewart's vulnerability. I liked their relationship with each other. Their performance, the actors together worked very well. Couldn't have put in every scene they have together. That's a great scene. I thought about it. I didn't want to, but yeah. Yeah, they're kind of wrote the scenes themselves. It's all in the performance. Margot Rose is the actor's name who plays Aline. Peter Allen Fields, who, by the way, dated Sophia Loren, the writer. he he was He fell in love with this woman. I don't know if they dated afterward or what, but he had a lot to say about her. um And i I thought the two scenes, I can't believe it.
00:34:01
Speaker
There are two scenes on the enterprise I thought were great scenes. Picard seizes on the floor of the bridge after Data severs the connection beam. And it's Picard seizing. We see the the makeshift sickbay they built around him. And Gates McFadden's delivery of, I'm losing him, is so real that it's like, I can't believe they're giving A plus but like acting here to really sell it. But I think it sells that between the seizing And and mc McFadden's performance, I think it really works. And I think the last scene is great, ah where Riker brings Picard the flute, because I distinctly remember his 11-year-old being half in, half out of this episode, that when he opens the flute, and I was watching this with people, and when he when he opens the box, they're like, the flute! It's just a nice moment, and it's it's a nice it's the vulnerability, of the emotional moment that we don't get in the launch scene, we get it here.
00:34:55
Speaker
So I remembered it had been a few years since I'd seen this episode when I rewatched it. And um I knew that there was a moment where Picard gets the flute and I forgot exactly how it ended up in his hands. And I think that it needed, there were two things that took me out of it. And and one of them was the blocking. Riker is standing right on Picard's toes when when he's going in there and and and handing him the flute. And also he just like,
00:35:24
Speaker
sort of back pedals out. oh yeah and no i This is without saying anything, like this is a, you know, a high school one act. And I'm just like, I think you don't like Picard, whether it's Riker or Crusher, or Troy, I think it could have been any one of those characters, Picard needs to like, say something to them. I think that there needs to be like,
00:35:50
Speaker
maybe one line exchange. So it's not just like Riker fading out like he's, you know, the ghost of Christmas yet to come. Like that just that took me out of that. That's direction. I think that's just direction because there's a moment that you can play that where you you do some cutting or you you angle you block it differently. Exactly right. um But yeah, I I have said this many times on this podcast. I am not a Riker guy and it's because if I ever watch Riker in isolation when he's not the, when he's the front and center of an episode, usually it's actually pretty good. But like watching Jonathan Frakes when he's just reacting and off to the side is one of the least enjoyable experiences for me watching Star Trek.
00:36:37
Speaker
I don't usually react well to the faces he makes, the way he moves, and it's stuff like that where it's just like, but a lot of that's, you gotta, the director's job is to hide that. Yeah. It it felt clumsy in a way that the rest of it is. it's It's okay for Star Trek The Next Generation to be clumsy in a lot of ways. This was not a moment where but that was okay. I think Jonathan Frakes sort of has like a I'm going to use this in a slightly pejorative way that it's not going to sound like. There's sort of a Sean Connery-ish physical presence to him on screen where he's just so big.
00:37:14
Speaker
like
00:37:16
Speaker
what are It's awesome if he's the center of attention, but if he's just sort of supposed to fade in the background, he's just enormous. it's just It's just hard to aim at cool news. i think i I think that's where he wrote this for. He wrote his review of Star Trek Nemesis and it was he panned the movie, but i'll never i don't I think I have it right. that I don't think I've ever forgotten it. and He said, Jonathan Frakes has two acting faces and they're both good for television.
00:37:46
Speaker
and
00:37:49
Speaker
and And it's hard for me to look away from it. Now, I love Jonathan Frakes now, and he's the mayor of Star Trek, and there's no, you know, that's great. But I mean, it's, yeah, the big oaf I never really thought about, but that's part of it. He's just such a big physical person. I love Jonathan Frakes, like you said. like It's so inspiring that he overcame going to Penn State to turn out to be what seems like a ah pretty nice guy. um He's also committed and I always appreciate when actors are committed. So he's not he's a goofball as soon as you say cut but he's committed. But yeah, that scene that moment is Picard's moment and yet you're holding Riker in the shot. It's like,
00:38:29
Speaker
a better director would have realized that moment. We're zoomed in, so you're not just so aware of how close, you know, make their torsos and heads take up the entire screen instead of, like, you know, if Riker's a size 13 instead of a size 12, like, changes the entire dynamic of the of the shot, so. I think he thought it it was more important that Riker hands it to him, um but if a car is just sitting there,
00:38:58
Speaker
and Riker leaves it on the table and he goes and Picard gets up and goes to it, that it does the same thing. it's you know i would ah I think I liked your idea better that it's Dr. Crusher doing that, but they were so, once Gates McFadden came back, like they were very much like, guess what? We're bringing you back because the fans wanted you back and the cast hates Diana Moldar, but you're not going to be in the same role that you had, you're gonna be,
00:39:26
Speaker
cordoned off to the sides, so it was all weird bullshit. so umm I'm gonna keep riker-ing this. I think that that scene plays differently. there's One of my favorite Picard riker scenes is in the Pegasus, where Picard is is confronting him about um ah concealing the mutiny against Captain Terry O'Quinn and his evil a cloaking device. And there's just like a level of of frankness and emotion between the two of them in that scene that they had to grow into. And even after five years, I think the characters hadn't quite gotten to that point. And maybe they had a different conversation. No, I totally agree. If this happens at the end of season six instead of season five. So and just one um i wanted something I wanted either something less or something more from that that last exchange.
00:40:13
Speaker
All right, best trek tropes. I have a couple. How many do you have? So I sort of mentioned the, you know, you're living a different life thing. I didn't write that down as a best trek trope, but maybe that's more of a... It's iffy. I like maybe like but living an entire experience in ah in a blink of an eye. It's kind of like a broader trope. I have two.
Depiction of Alien Civilizations
00:40:35
Speaker
One is Mediterranean architecture.
00:40:40
Speaker
where if there's a civilization, particularly an alien civilization, that they like, and it's supposed to be not quite as advanced, it all looks like they're trying to build a Greek-themed, all-inclusive resort. That's what the sets look like. I believe that was built for Ensigns of Command, and it gets reused in Journey's End, and it gets reused in... um What's the last row episode? and prere of straight yeah ah So I mean, I don't think it, I'm not sure if it was built for instance of command, but it it definitely seems like that's impossible because just knowing how much money Roddenberry blew on the first season or two, but it's been reused a lot, but that's a good one. I like that. Yeah. You can tell how much we're supposed to like an alien civilization by how much time the civilization spends in their outdoor pizza kitchen. ah That's great.
00:41:33
Speaker
It's cortical stabilizers. Oh. We're just, Dr. Crusher says, corduical stave sorry, not stabilizers, simulators, cortical simulators. And then you do the you know the buzzing thing. and That's what I put on before I log into social media. Yeah. sort of the simator ah Those are good. I had alien probes.
00:41:54
Speaker
Mm hmm. That's a good one. It can be benevolent or evil. um ah What a what a spectrum. The kids the settlers of Catan Probe. By the way, sorry, everyone, all the nerds out there, I didn't make that joke earlier. And then you've got the masks probe. So yeah. And somewhere in the middle is of the Star Trek four probe. I was going to say.
00:42:20
Speaker
the we're going to enlighten you, the we're going to kill you and then hey do we just want to talk to the whales. it hit sleep to try and comp problembble with you whereas And then the other one is botany because for some of you, I've never heard botany, the word botany uttered outside of Star Trek. that or Or compound word or prefix botany. Like the the only time I've ever seen it was with Dr. Sattler in Jurassic Park. That's right. it's Like she's the only person outside of Star Trek who has ever put a free prefix in front of botany yeah in TV or film. That's great.
00:43:00
Speaker
worst trek tropes i have a few okay uh wharf just wants to blow everything up i put the shutting down wharf because it's still like he has a suggestion and like no he deserved it was a stupid suggestion should shut up down no wharf we're not going to shoot it
00:43:18
Speaker
he He's like, this thing is hurting the captain. I'm going to shoot it and destroy it. I mean, yes. Worf should have been listening to what was going on. I'm saying the trope is not that Worf did that, but that they wrote Worf to be that stupid. Yes. I hate when they do that. Worf didn't come up with a second idea until season four of Deep Space Nine.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point. OK, what else? ah I put it the way I put it in my notes was Picard's job per onesie when he wakes up. OK, was this the costuming here is dire? It's it's ah unusual and the sandals. I like that it was a sandal culture. I'm in favor of sandal culture in general.
00:44:07
Speaker
But the, uh, the leisure where the, the bed, well, those are basically bedroom clothes. Yeah. Sleepwear. No, but they're like, they're going out and walking around in there. They're turquoise ones. They have to wear light flowy material if they're on a planet that's being killed by a Nova-ing star. That's true. I do like, I do, I did really like that they're all wearing straw hats and the lighting is a little bit more blue. Yeah. In the last scene, I thought that was.
00:44:35
Speaker
That was great there. The the episode does ah a lot of stuff with the showing the progress of yeah time and also the degradation of the planets, like the greens, the shrubs die and all like it's all really interesting. Well done. um I don't know why they didn't just call it sunscreen. That's one of my worst trick tropes is like it was like oh are you your skin protection or whatever. And it's just like, just say sunscreen. Like I don't get why that your sunblock show. Even at the time, like even watching when she he said sunscreen or or sun protection or whatever, I thought about the Baz Luhrmann, everyone's free to wear
Critique of Star Trek's Terminology
00:45:16
Speaker
sunscreen. So if they had said sunscreen, then maybe that would have just intensified. Do you wear your skin protector outdoors? And it's just like, come on, just sunblock. That's right there.
00:45:29
Speaker
what Do you have any other ones? I don't hate that Star Trek trope, but no. Did did ah you pick up anything I missed? ah Warp travel times. How long does it take that probe to traverse one light year? So Picard's out for 20 or 25 minutes and I was trying to play with the warp travel time calculators online. And I can believe that they have a probe on board that can go warp nine. I'm not against that, but like to traverse one light year in like 15, 20 minutes is, and then to send that information back. So that's definitely a fudging of that to make the story go.
00:46:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's subspace. Travel times at Star Trek are all. That's what I'm saying, though. I'm like, you know, the they're so careful in so many other ways to show the time dilation, you know, basically five seconds on the enterprises is like a like a month there. That's fine. And then the other one is this is maybe kind of more of a TNG era, Rick Berman era, Michael Piller era.
00:46:31
Speaker
but the nineteen very 1950s style of marriage or maybe it's more like boomers writing about their parents because it's like they're very close to Picard and and came in and Alina very close to calling each other ma and pa and he's very much like yes ma'am and all this stuff and I just it's such a weird 1950s, I don't know. and They do this in Star Trek a lot where there's this imbalance of the woman's, the boss, and she has to like boss the husband around. and and Then she's like, I'm nagging. and He's like, no, no, you're being right. and I don't know. there's There's nothing really for a culture that seems kind of socialist, that thats civilization. It was a pretty standard 1950s Americana TV style marriage, but I think it's one that Michael Piller and a lot of the writers, they recognize like, that's the example of a good marriage. And so I think that's just a trope for its time. All right, most cosplayable character or moment. So you're out on all of these Catan people, these, the Bressican
00:47:32
Speaker
i didn't say I said it was ugly. I didn't say it was cosplayable. It wasn't cosplayable. I said anything with the flute. Anything with the flute? Okay. All right. ah That's a good one. I think I put, I'd like to see old man Picard. Someone try that. Yeah. Because when he's chasing his grandson around, that looks like something had crawled out of the grave.
00:47:55
Speaker
So you know what it reminded me of was the when Don Corleone dies in The Godfather. There we go. That's exactly why what that felt like to me. Now it's time for the line must've drawn here. Great lines.
00:48:08
Speaker
i So I struggled with this because for such, I would call this an extremely well written episode of television. And there was very little dialogue that really stood out to me. There was not that much. There's the one about like, you know, ah the most important time is now. And like, that's supposed to be the thing that you put on t-shirts or whatever. I thought that was a little clumsily stated. So for this, I put there's when he's going up to Administrator Lieutenant Commander Cavitt, who's also wearing old age makeup and say- You caught that too. Great. It's a very distinctive face. He does. That's true. and The graying around the temples, like I'm going bald before I'm graying around the temples like that, and I'm furious about it. like i would I would give a kidney to gray around the temples like that. What was I saying? Oh, he's toning around his notebook yeah and saying, the facts are here. and in the exacts It's the exact same
00:49:05
Speaker
Cadence said, yeah, I might not have clocked it if the category was not, was named something else, but I felt that had to be included. That's fantastic. I put this line, it's a profound line for Picard and, you know, in TV, they're like, show don't tell, but sometimes when you tell, it's like, wow, I would have never expected this character to say that. ah He tells Aline, I would have believed I didn't need children to complete my life. Now I couldn't imagine life without them. I mean,
00:49:32
Speaker
Jean-Luc Picard saying that in season five, at the end of season five of that show, like that is a different person. And and because it's Patrick Stewart, he delivers it and you believe it. you know he's There's a version where he's playing this, where it's being played as though he's playing along.
00:49:50
Speaker
And we could tell that he's yeah playing along, and he's not, he's given in. And then I did put that line, seize the time Maribor, he's Tony's daughter, yeah live now, make now always the most precious time, now will never come again. Now, that seemed to have then made its way into generations. Yes. ah He says at the very end to Riker.
00:50:12
Speaker
um Pretty profound. I don't know. I mean, for Picard, again, sticking with him. I'm just thinking about your first line about, I can't imagine my life without children. like if It gets back to Wesley that he says that. like There's going to be some serious therapy going on in the surrogate dad relationship.
00:50:37
Speaker
And I think when you're just watching, if you're really focusing on this episode instead of just having it on the background and you're watching the performance, especially if you have it on a big TV or whatever, you kind of watch it and you go, how could they have not brought any of this into Star Trek Picard? I just think it's so strange. It's like, wow, this is begging to be explored. And because basically none of the writers on staff except for Michael Filler had children.
00:51:03
Speaker
they did' They just didn't explore it. it was It's very strange. Man, I can't believe Star Trek Picard did weird, bad, you know, story construction. That's just so shocking. Would this have been a fun, hollow novel to play out? Now, before you answer, let me just say, like, this is a complicated question. So I'm curious to see how you're going to answer.
00:51:28
Speaker
I just said, yeah, of course. I think like, but if you're playing it as Picard, you're starting on the bridge, you have a seizure and then you live a whole second life within being Picard on the enterprise. And then you come out of it. You're basically playing that Rick and Morty game, Roy, a life well-lived. Did you ever see that episode? yeah The good only fucking and morty episode I've ever seen is the one with Mr. Me seeks. Okay. That's a great one too. But it's like not nothing in the rest of the show is ever going to be as funny as this. So. But Rick takes Morty to an intergalactic arcade, and one of the video games is basically a life simululate simulator, where he lives a whole life. He has like a wife and kid. He's watching kids, his wife dies, his kids reject it, whatever. Or that he he kind of has redemption or whatever. And then he gets yanked out of the simulation, and he thought it was all real, and he's having this this detachment issue. And that's exactly what's going on here.
00:52:19
Speaker
Um, and I'll, by the way, all that is played as like a ah two minute gag. It's not the whole, what the episodes on about that. Um, so I don't know. it It would be a, an intense hall hall novel to play out. I would think. Yeah. Fun, maybe not the right word. I think fulfilling definitely. And like, you know, is it realistic to play out as a hollow novel? Like I'll tell you this mass effect three has a clock that tells you how many hours you've put into your save. And, uh, man, I really wish it didn't.
00:52:48
Speaker
i not only to myself what ah What a mean thing to do for me. It's like, yeah, it's like a beer that shows you how many calories you drank out of them, just like scrolling up. They have to. I wonder if they have like a plug in if you if you're like you enter into the thing, you're like, I am a parent. And then again, your child has aged this much while you have ah been playing the game.
00:53:19
Speaker
This is time you could have spent ah teaching your job. All right. The Anton Kritian Award for Best Performance. Is there any debate? It's Patrick Stewart. Yeah, I've worked really hard to come up with a second plausible answer and couldn't do it. He's I mean, though I think the only reason why this episode works is because of his performance. If I'm being completely honest, then the Shatner. Who do you have? I mean, poor Daniel Stewart is
00:53:47
Speaker
Not awesome in this. Does he look down at his mark when he runs up to Cayman to say, mother's dying. I feel like that's tough.
00:53:59
Speaker
Uh, that's a good one. I, I put Jonathan Frakes cause I'm watching, he's bellowing all of his orders. My least favorite version of Riker is like, Oh, I know it's an intense situation, Riker. Thank you for yelling at everybody during the situation. This is my, I mean, my frustration. um Look, I've put my cards on the table. with My feelings about Jonathan Frakes and commander Riker. I love them both. But this, this episode, every second.
00:54:28
Speaker
we spent on the enterprise while Captain Picard was unconscious made me furious. it was such a I thought it was it like it was not fun to watch. I didn't find it fulfilling for the plot. and like I thought that if they had just dropped us off with Picard and left us with them, that would have been so much more immersive instead of just yanking us back out to hear Worf say, hey, we could blow this shit up. like Thanks, Worf. We knew that already.
00:54:58
Speaker
These are all good points. I also wanted to do an honorable mention for Scott Jake as the administrator, only because once he gets into the old age makeup, he's really trying to convey that his voice has changed. He's gotten older. the old The old age makeup, his old age makeup was not as good as the rest of the old age makeup. It was barely hanging on. Yeah. All right, shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence.
00:55:27
Speaker
not a big like in-your-face excitement you know, shoot them up kind of episode. um I thought it was a really good map painting. the When Picard's up on the hill looking at Resik from ah the side of the mountain, I thought it was evocative of like hi seven years in Tibet, you know, this kind of mountain fortress in front of this desolate plain. I thought that was a, you know, Next Generation loves its map paintings. And ah I think this was one of the better ones.
00:56:00
Speaker
They had a whole little bit about that. It was lovingly recreated for the remaster because all the map paintings are just they look like blobs when you project them up to high def.
Remastering of Matte Paintings
00:56:09
Speaker
So they had to recreate a lot of them. So that's a great one. um What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? ah How to fake it till you make it based on context clues when you're dropped into an alien society?
00:56:24
Speaker
and are not sure you have amnesia. So this is kind of a best trick trope, but it's one. This is something I really hope the new Starfleet Academy show goes into, and that is you need to be a bit of a theater kid to be a good Starfleet officer, I think. So improvisation, that's a really good one. I i put this though, because Probably the Mexican culture is something like I have to imagine Picard didn't simply file a report. I feel like he must have gone on some sort of speaking tour, you know, taking a leave of absence. He's like writing on his pad and just tears streaming down his face.
00:57:02
Speaker
He's got he must have conducted like a seminar for an archaeological cohort, if not during the run of the show than at some point after. Again, another missed opportunity from Star Trek Picard is like, he's still teaching about the resikins or the the katans. You know, yeah he could have been doing something, but I have to imagine the fortunate that this probe happened upon like a military officer who happens to be an avid amateur archaeologist.
00:57:31
Speaker
Everything happens for a reason, Michael. If Kurt would just stumble the, you know, stumble onto the crew of the Orville or something like that. Or Jonathan Archer. got you They would have just bloated up and then Archer would have just had brain damage the rest of the show.
00:57:50
Speaker
ah Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? So I I kind of liked the you mentioned the relationship between Cayman and Aline being 50s in terms of like boomers writing about their parents. I think it's sort of 50s-ish, not just in terms of like the, you know, the short story and the, ah you know, like a magazine short story, but also it's sort of like what you'd show in a stage play.
00:58:22
Speaker
um And I think that there's a reading of this, you know, maybe if this happens in the era of Star Trek, where they're saying the F word on television, ah where there's a, you know, a torrid, hot and steamy romance between Picard and his or Cayman and his wife after he wakes out up from the coma. I thought they had really good chemistry without that. Like I i really enjoyed watching their relationship. And also you're, you're already cramming
00:58:55
Speaker
ah what, 50 years of of history into 25 minutes of of story time, but also like 25 minutes of screen time. you know There's not enough time to do that. So maybe it would have been too much, but I think that there is a hornier version of this that that does work. Okay. My pitch is this, because watching Picard, you already highlighted the hike.
00:59:18
Speaker
and Bronson Cannon, where he looks out at the matte painting. Patrick Stewart's arms are pretty vascular there. Yeah. And I think you have that moment, he just wakes up in bed shirtless with her draped over him. Oh, nice. And that's enough, I think, to really... They do that. they They do, like, shirtless draped over in bed from time to time in Next Generation. And that's, I think for Picard, that's kind of enough.
00:59:42
Speaker
yeah And I think so kind of think it was um a bit of a mistake in a way where the next time we see them after he's like normal age Picard, he's been aged up five years or whatever, is that he's looking out the telescope. Like, I think that's the missed opportunity to show like he's committed in the marriage, but he's also still committed to this. I don't know. But ah that's it could have been a little hornier. And I think it would have made it a little bit better, even though this episode, I think, is is really well done and and good. this way This was also a golden age, just Star Trek the next generation, a golden age for hairy, chested men. And, you know, we could have the clients of what Roddenberry wanted in the 60s. Nowhere! Actors had to cut, who mourns for Abanias? How much like,
01:00:29
Speaker
one guy's weird sex shit turned into like one of the pillars of American popular culture. like one of the This enduring cultural literary force is just absolutely nowhere. It happens all the time. it's ah Mormonism is one dude. It's weird. sexual I guess it's true. It's a thing. Here's ah an idea for a podcast episode. Which one's more influential, Star Trek or Mormonism? Oh, it's gotta be Mormonism. And is the the synthesis between the two ah the expanse?
01:01:08
Speaker
but Oh, great point. Well, Star Galactica is explicitly a science fiction tale of Mormonism. how That's true. Is the expanse a synthesis of Star Trek and Mormonism is an interesting point because I do believe very strongly that the expanse is the spiritual cousin of Star Trek. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it's, ah yeah, so it's, yeah, maybe.
01:01:33
Speaker
That's a great point. um which part of this store Now, this is ah category ahro but ah this is a question we trot out occasionally. We do it mainly for Star Trek Picard, but I think this is a really fun one to try it on. What part of this story or episode would Picard omit from or embellish in his memoir? So for embellish, I think that Picard would, with the benefit of hindsight, take a very paternalistic British Museum view of the Recikens, and that would color his ah his lecture tour that you have him
Picard's Paternalistic View?
01:02:09
Speaker
going on. yeah um But at the same time, to to answer the hornier element of this, like maybe he learned stuff from Aline that he teacherses to teaches to Donna Murphy in insurrection. Which, so far as I know, yeah hasn't existed anywhere close to the wild season.
01:02:31
Speaker
Speaking of the, you know, just family and having him stand still, whatever, like get a load of this. That's wonderful. Um, I can't add to that. That's really, that's fantastic. All right. So Trek marry or kill the inner light, Michael Bowman.
Literary Quality of 'The Inner Light'
01:02:52
Speaker
I'd marry it. i like This is not my favorite episode in season five of Next Generation by a long shot. there' are so like The first duty, Darmok, those are the what I hold up as my favorite season five episodes. but this is just It feels like it it transcends Star Trek in a...
01:03:19
Speaker
in a way that, you know start I guess Star Trek's purpose is to transcend Star Trek, to have a lesson or to to make a statement or something, but like this is just... um
01:03:34
Speaker
It's just grounded in literary in a way that not all of Star Trek is. I think that one of the great strengths of Star Trek is the density of the world building. that like You know exactly where you are and how everything works. and like you know You and I are making jokes about how the magical gadget you know the the time violation of warp travel and you know all this stuff that is indistinguishable from magic.
01:03:56
Speaker
And the story of what Picard goes through as Cayman is so sparse. You see so little of it, but you understand all of it. And the rest of it, it just invites you to fill the void with with your own emotions and empathy in a way that Star Trek, which is ordinarily, it holds your hand a lot more.
01:04:18
Speaker
ah than this. and so you know i I think it's it's a great episode of Star Trek, but I i really do think it's a ah great episode of television in a you know completely separate sense. so I would marry it.
01:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, I would marry it to for that same reason. I have a strong belief that a merry Star Trek episode is not just a great episode of Star Trek, but a great episode of TV. And I think what it does so well versus TV at the time and even TV now is it avoids being sensational. Like it's not a bunch of melodrama happening on the planet. In fact, it's quite boring. But because we know these characters so well, we understand what it means for Picard to be in this situation. And so this very matter of fact, he's in this culture, he's going he's having this adult experience. We recognize the profundity of what's I'm considering boring. It's not entertaining. It's there's no punching. You know, you can imagine the Alex Kurtzman version of this. It's like the administrator turns him down and he punches him and he's like or whatever. And it's just you can see that
01:05:26
Speaker
people get impatient with stuff like that today. And I think that taking its time, because it's executed pretty well, thanks to the performances, I think more than the direction, although, you know, the production design, the makeup, the details. Yeah, yeah. the The detail really makes it work. I agree. Sub question, though.
01:05:45
Speaker
Is this actually one of the greatest episodes of The Next Generation? So it was in the viewer's choice top five, which is a recency bias, I would say. You know, it's season seven. This was season five. um You mentioned two from season five. Cause and effect is in season five.
01:06:02
Speaker
I Borg is in season five. I wouldn't necessarily say that's one of the best episodes of next generation But season five I think really is the last great season of the next generation if we're being honest season six has good episodes and then season seven is effectively I think Genesis and all good things and those are the things keeping the boat afloat, but season seven's pretty stinky um But I I don't know. Do you think?
01:06:26
Speaker
Is it a top five? Is it Inner Circle? Is it a top ten? I don't think it's top five. I think it's the kind of episode that you would get a lot of people to put in a top five, but it's not top five for me.
01:06:39
Speaker
um I just yeah i couldn't imagine at the time. I mean, relics is on that list. Like if we were doing it over again, I don't think the viewers would pick relics as the top five episode. And I don't know that inner light would. I mean, it is an episode that everyone thinks about, which goes to the point we you said about it's a great episode of television. Like even people who don't watch Star Trek really kind of know what this episode is.
01:07:03
Speaker
And i I also tend to, when I'm putting together like top, I haven't done this a while since I don't work at The Ringer anymore and don't have to think about TV for a living, but um you when i'm putting together when I'm putting together lists of like great episodes, I try to think of of characteristic episodes, you know ones that are just great examples of what the show does really well and not just you know the two parters and the sure very special episodes. The outliers, right, right.
01:07:30
Speaker
and so like
01:07:34
Speaker
I think this is, as much as I said, it's not your typical Star Trek episode. I think this is an example of something that you can do well with the tools that Star Trek has. My number one would be best of both worlds, the two-parter. And, you know, if you wanna- That was the viewer's choice. That was the viewer's choice. Yeah, and if you wanna put, like every time I go back to that, it's just like, it's a thriller, it's an action episode, but going back to it every time I'm just like,
01:08:01
Speaker
just the Riker element of the story is is so good. It's so much better than just those big action set pieces in the low cutest of board reveal, which are, you know, shocking and and thrilling for, you know, within the the context of the show and the all time great cliffhanger, but it's just such a great character development episode for Riker. But then you lead into that and the next episode,
01:08:24
Speaker
his family where you get, you know, you want to talk about Star Trek or Star Trek, or you talk about Picard with his, you know, with his chest hair showing, you know, reckoning with family in his own life and whether he's wasted everything by spending his entire life seeking out strange new worlds. Like, I think I think family is a better episode in terms of Picard's character development as much as as great as the inner light is. So, you know, is it one of the best I think you have to specify a number. it's not It's not top five for me. And I think even trying to take my own emotions out of it, I'm not positive it's top 10. But it's like, I love it. It's incredible. Yeah. At first blush, I'm like, I don't see how it's top 10. By the way, numbers one and two are the two best of both worlds. And then the number three, so number two, is yesterday's enterprise.
01:09:15
Speaker
And I'm like, that's pretty that's pretty high up there, I would think, too. That episode's grown in estimation over time. And X-ray's Enterprise, like, it hits the, Relics is not a great episode of, but it's like, oh, it's showing you, like, parts of the Star Trek universe that, you know, yeah we're bringing this character back that right that we love. And yesterday's Enterprise does that while also being an incredible episode of of Star Trek while also being an incredible like action sci-fi 45 minutes. that So you know yesterday's enterprise might be like the best exemp exemplar, even though there's a lot that's special about it.
01:09:53
Speaker
ah Yeah, so great episode. I mean, I think it's just not one I would be like, I'm going to pop on the inner light. You know what I mean? Like, that's not an episode I think of when I'm like that I'm dying to see it again. And but at the same, it's an episode that if you pay attention to it, it rewards you because of the craft.
01:10:12
Speaker
the direction maybe not so much but that you know it's just and it's a great Patrick Stewart performance which listen a lot of people say Patrick Stewart's an amazing actor I'm like okay but I think a real measure of acting is like I'm just watching it for his performance you mentioned family an interesting debate would be is this even the best Patrick Stewart said this is the best acting challenge he had in Next Generation. i I believe him. Is this the best Picard centered episode of the series is also a good question because you mentioned family. ah There's also tapestry. tapestry's the other one it was good So there's there's a couple of examples. Captain's Holiday, not a good example, but also a fun one. He never gets out of being the stodgy Captain Picard, really, but it's still fun.
Patrick Stewart's Performance
01:10:57
Speaker
um so I just think that's great. ah But again, credit to the actors for really delivering this episode. I think that's what makes it work. Michael, I'm so glad you came on for this one. Me too. Yeah, it's much better than the the last one, so thank you. Also, this episode should be one of the best ever because it's where Deep Space Nine was born.
01:11:19
Speaker
so Can't forget that. ah So, where can people find you find your thoughts outside of Star Trek? ah Well, as you said, I'm a writer at Fangrafts where you can consume all of my thoughts about baseball. um I've got one about the Dodgers and the salary cap. I know you're going to be disappointed to discover that I oppose the salary cap and I'm not you know trying to break up the Dodgers.
01:11:44
Speaker
I just I'm hoping that baseball stays baseball and it's very hard to repeat. And just because you have the best roster doesn't mean you're gonna win at all. That's all I've got. Yeah, that's what I expect to happen, by the way. um I also have a cycling newsletter called wheelie sports, which I am currently in the process of moving off of sub stack to some other distribution service. um the The cycling season has just ah started this week. So my most recent edition of the newsletter is about a very characteristic, like what what you need, and a race that teaches you what you need to know about tactics in order to
01:12:23
Speaker
you know be a more informed viewer of the Tour de France, and the you know the races that are big enough that will show up on on your TV. So that's the most recent one at wheelysports.substack dot.whatever. um And you can find me on blue sky at bowman.bsky.social or whatever the suffix is. Yeah. So listeners, my value add for reading Michael's work is this.
01:12:51
Speaker
It's entertaining. He's not a goofball making jokes. He's writing everything he writes, even your fan graphs post. Fan graphs is very nerdy. I like to think I'm i'm a goofball making jokes. But yeah, but what I'm saying is it's accessible if you don't understand the concept or what you're approaching.
01:13:08
Speaker
he's going to tell you what you need to know to get through the art. It's like a great episode of television. If you've never watched the show before, you can jump right in and you're going to understand what's going on. You're going to learn something and you're going to be entertained one way or the other. um You write long pieces sometimes and they sustain so well. I'm just in awe. So I appreciate your writing. You write long pieces. If you're someone who enjoys reading human work,
01:13:36
Speaker
Michael's is a cut above the rest, so check it out. It is definitely is definitely human work. that's ah Well, there are some people who don't care. um Human work. There are some people who don't care. There are some people who now seem to prefer computer generated writing. So we're living in strange times. I do worry that I'm so easy to parody that when AI comes to me, I'm going to be one of the first to get knocked off the ramparts. But I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
01:14:07
Speaker
We're Trek Mary K Pod on social media, trekmarikillpod.com on the web. If you feel so inclined, rate and review on whichever platform you listen to our show, we'd really appreciate it. We appreciate the ones we've received so far. ah Recommend us to your friends. so Any Star Trek cast members you might know, let them know. I'd love to get Jonathan Frakes on to do Defiant. I don't think that's going to happen, but I would love if that he came on to be like, now you're approaching Thomas Riker.
01:14:30
Speaker
Do you approach it any differently from when you're playing Will Riker? and That would just be a fun episode to do. I apologize if you've made this joke before, but if you do get Jonathan Frakes on to do Defiant, are you going to shave your beard and wear a false... Well, to make it work, I have to what yeah i have to wear the false beard to strip it off. the One of the greatest shots in OT. That's right.
01:14:55
Speaker
ah One of the greatest shots in Star Trek, in my opinion, I'm sorry. It's a great but fictional trope. It's just, oh, i'm I'm the evil twin. And you can tell because I have a goatee. I'm so glad they did that. It's beautiful. All right. Next week, our interlight month continues with Far Beyond the Stars from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. So until then, TMK out.