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Mastering Poetry with Lauren Badillo Milici
194 Plays2 years ago
This week on a very special episode of Friendless, your pal James Avramenko interviews Lauren Badillo Milici. Lauren is a poet (Final Girl & Sad, Sexy Catholic) and pop culture writer.
They discuss Henry Zebrowski as muse, the narcissism of artists, the pitfalls of Master’s level writer’s circles, and so much more!
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Transcript
Introduction and Themes
00:00:08
Speaker
Hey there, sweeties. Welcome back to Friendless, the only podcast that tries to teach you how to be a better friend while I lose every friend I have. I am, as always, your host, James Avromenko, and this week I have special guest Lauren Padillo-Malisi. Lauren is the author of two chatbooks of poetry, Final Girl, and the just released Sad, Sexy Catholic. She's also a pop culture writer and devoted Shrek apostle.
00:00:31
Speaker
We discuss Henry Zabrowski as Muse, the narcissism of artists, the pitfalls of master's level writer's circles, and so much more. There's a great interview, but don't take my word for
Meet Lauren Padillo-Malisi
00:00:41
Speaker
it. Get comfy and enjoy my interview with the one and only Lauren Badillo-Malisi here on Friendless. For listeners who may not have heard of you, I'll put this really bluntly, but not meant as aggressively as it sounds. Who the hell are you?
00:00:58
Speaker
Who the hell am I? That's a great question. I'm a poet. I'm an entertainment writer. I'm a cat mom. I hoard VHS tapes.
00:01:14
Speaker
I feel like those are really important things. Yeah. You're at the main points.
Discussing 'Sad, Sexy Catholic'
00:01:20
Speaker
I like that. I like that. So speaking on poetry to that end, you have a brand new chapbook that's just come out, Sad, Sexy Catholic, and it's fantastic. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about sort of the genesis of the book and how it came to be. It's a sequel to Final Girl, which came out in 2019.
00:01:43
Speaker
And then I remember having 20 poems ready and having the audacity to DM Clash and go, hey, do you guys do chatbooks? And they were like, we've never done one before, but you should email us anyway. And then I did. And they were like, we love this. Can you make it longer? And I was like, OK. So first it was just very
00:02:06
Speaker
like poems with like mysticism themes and like basically the survivor of the first book navigating like you've done all the therapy you've done all the work now how do we have functional relationships and live and stuff now that we've worked on ourself and
Creative Process for Chapbooks
00:02:23
Speaker
for some reason when I hit like 27, 26, 27, like all of like, I started like reading back through like my, I was brought up Catholic and I started reading, even though it's always been in my life and I have an empty thing of holy water on my desk, like then I have my tarot cards and my witchy shit. So it's always been in my life. But I started kind of like reframing like certain, like the way I look at things kind of like through like that kind of lens. And that's kind of where, that was a long way of saying,
00:02:52
Speaker
where the book came from. But that's kind of where it came from. I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. It's funny, doubling back to the idea of, you know, you're speaking of Catholicism and you don't get Good Friday off, but you know. Yeah. Yeah. But my book should be my license to get Good Friday off.
00:03:08
Speaker
That's exactly right. That's your that's your your out card, you know. So you did touch on it a little bit already in terms of the writing process.
Challenges in Compiling Poetry
00:03:17
Speaker
But I'm curious if you could tell me a little bit more about the sort of process you go through in writing something like a chapbook, because, you know, I know I know like for me, for instance, it's like, you know, you're writing poems, but you're never really sure how they're slotting together. And so, like, how did you go about attacking, like, compiling it?
00:03:36
Speaker
There are a bunch of poems that didn't make the cut because they just felt like they felt like they're for book three. So I'm thinking this is going to be a chap book trilogy and then we'll see. But it's weird because I tell everybody this, I don't sit down to write a poem and go, okay, I'm going to write about this today. The pen just starts doing what it wants to do, which makes my life very difficult.
00:04:03
Speaker
But I had to like, I had to when I did when I still had a printer, I'm gonna have to get a printer again, if I'm gonna put together another book, but print out literally every poem that you have written, and you know, put them all on the floor. And then I put like poems I feel connect like thematically in one pile, and then ones I think like maybe be suited for something else. So some poems that were supposed to be in Final Girl ended up being in this one, because I definitely felt
00:04:30
Speaker
They fit more here. And then there's just some poems that I was just like, this sounds nothing like the speaker of Saturday Catholics. So maybe this is going to go in the third book. Basically, it's making a mess of your apartment and then going insane.
00:04:45
Speaker
I love
Academic vs Non-Academic Poetry
00:04:46
Speaker
that. I love that so much. It's always so fascinating to me to hear artist process past the initial writing part because, you know, like I'm with you where it's like, I don't often have a plan. I sit down, I write. That's what I've got. And then I work with it and I, you know, if I like it, I, you know.
00:05:04
Speaker
keep going. And if I don't, I ignore it. Um, but it's, it's always those next stages there where I hit those roadblocks, you know, the editing, the compiling, all those kinds of things. And, and I'm always so interested to hear how people get through them. I use the, what we call the thesis method, which is the way, or the way we all organize our thesis in grad school. It was like printing every single thing out, but running on the floor and trying to put it all together that way.
00:05:31
Speaker
And it works. So I'm just going to keep doing it. I mean, you know, MFA is good for something, right? What one thing was that? I don't know how to write a sonnet. I don't know how to write a sestina. Like, couldn't I taught at top poetry for three years. I couldn't fucking tell you how to do any of that. So.
00:05:53
Speaker
That's interesting, actually. I read an interview you did recently with Elle Nash, and you were talking about that, and you were mentioning the sonnets and things like that. And I guess I'm curious. Do you see that as a failing? Because I personally really don't. I can understand the beauty of the sonnet for its time, but I don't know that it speaks to the modern reader in the same way.
00:06:19
Speaker
I agree. There's academic poetry, and then there's just not academic poetry. And I feel like some people do a really good job at toeing the line, like Kava Akbar and his partner are both academics, but I feel like their poetry is not academia
Indie vs Academic Publishing
00:06:34
Speaker
poetry. Whereas some people I worked with in the MFA would think that not knowing form and not knowing certain things would be a failure. And then you find when you're trying to reach people,
00:06:48
Speaker
or your hope, even though poetry is very self-indulgent, I don't feel like I'm necessarily writing for someone, I realized subconsciously it's like, oh, if you want to reach people, there's a line between the Ruby Carr style, which I think is a good gateway into poetry. A lot of people have found her work and then go, oh, other stuff. But there's a fine line between that and then also still writing a structured poem
00:07:16
Speaker
that for me I like them to kind of tell a story or like I kind of shape them as like a movie scene and I feel like it's digestible that way. I don't know how long I've been doing that but it all came subconsciously once I realized like that my like poems have the power to like connect to people and it's not just sad girl writing in her bedroom.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. I definitely come from the perspective of like sort of more of the following the impulse type thing. I, you know, I, are you familiar with like Christian, I think his name's Christian Bach or Be Okay. He does these like very, very intellectual structured poems and everybody goes, oh, wow, he really thought about that, right? You know, and it's like, but it's really inaccessible and I can't help wondering
Balancing Teaching and Writing
00:08:06
Speaker
what the point of that is if you're trying to sort of block people from seeing what you're thinking or feeling, you know, I've always seen that as the sort of the intention behind a poem, right?
00:08:18
Speaker
That's another thing I think is really interesting. So I know not all academics are stuffy like this, but in my experience, it was seen as like, well, get published by a university press, have 10 people read it, looks good on paper. Whereas, go through an indie press, make a grand off of it, and have so many people read it, but it doesn't count because it's an indie press, and we've never heard of it. So it's not prestigious.
00:08:47
Speaker
And I think that's so backwards. Um, but I'm glad it's funny cause I wanted to be professor and then I was like, Oh, I don't fit into this world. No, thank you. Also, they don't tell you like in grad school or like when you're going to, I don't know how people are full-time teachers with multiple classes because like you have no time to write. Right. And a lot of the time to keep your, uh, tenure or whatever, you have to write up like a book each year or you have to like publish a certain amount of things each year. And I'm just like,
00:09:17
Speaker
Where do you find the time for that? Where are they doing this? Yeah. Are you not sleeping or is there, is there Adderall XL that I can like, what are we doing? So never, never, no one ever told me so. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's where that's the PhD level where they really let you in on the secret. Right. So here are the good drugs and now we go.
Pitching to Clash Books
00:09:39
Speaker
Right. Yeah.
00:09:42
Speaker
Um, um, with the, um, with the process of getting in touch with, with clash, I was actually really interested to hear a little bit more of that story because, you know, I, they're, they're a publication that I have so much respect for. And I've just like, I don't think I've read a book on the roster that I haven't loved, you know, and, and, and I'm curious what the, what your experience was like, you know, from, from yeah, kind of gate crashing and then all the way through to, to working with them to publication.
Ownership and Audience Interaction
00:10:12
Speaker
I met Lisa at AWP 2019, which was in Tampa. And it's funny because that was the AWP that I found out that Big Lux wanted to publish my first book, which was cool. But I remember going to their booth and
00:10:30
Speaker
being in awe of the artwork on the books. I couldn't believe it. This is an indie press, but this looks like stuff you'd find in Barnes & Noble. This is so cool. I don't remember what drove me to do it, because I was doing the whole getting ready to do open submission periods for chat books and go through all that, which is fine, because that's really what I tell everyone they should do, find an open period or find a contest.
00:10:58
Speaker
And I was just like, Hi, I have a really great pitch for my book. It's a chapbook. It's really tiny. But like, what do you think? Because I was like, I in my background, I was like, I want a pink book. And I know they can make it happen.
00:11:14
Speaker
And they did. So it's been a dream. I mean, because I got full say on how I wanted the book to look. And I wanted to go, like, very Hispanic, because like a lot of my, most of my mother is full Puerto Rican, and Badillo is her maiden name, and my grandma was a leech. But then she converted to Catholicism, and then she was a Catholic leech.
00:11:38
Speaker
Um, and, um, closest of all the Christianities is the closest one to witchy, you know, really, really is because Catholic saints are seen as like mystics or witches and other like culture. So it's, it all works. Um.
00:11:53
Speaker
But they were all for having me, like letting me have as much creative freedom. And it was Lisa's idea to make it prayer book size and to have the blank pages, like an original prayer book, which you're supposed to take notes on and stuff. So a few people have been like, am I allowed to take notes? I'm like, yeah.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I wondered about that. I was not raised in the church at all of any of any kind. And so I was really I was really fascinated by finding out about prayer books and all these things. And I yeah, I didn't even I didn't even clock the idea of the notes. I love that. I think I want to go back now and like do some marginalia, you know, someone and they won't let me post it yet because they're not done. But started sketching.
00:12:40
Speaker
And I really, let me ink it and then you can post it. And I'm so excited because they did like a very like cool, to one of, I can't think of which poem it was, they did a very cool tarot card, like sketch next on the other side of the page. And I was just like, holy fuck, that's cool. That's really cool. So yeah, I'm glad that everyone's kind of like, oh, and let me, yeah, like literally when you have a book,
Daily Poetry Practice
00:13:03
Speaker
it's yours. Fold the pages, crease the shit out of it, still coffee on it. Like that is the way.
00:13:10
Speaker
That's really, you know, that's something I think I might struggle with in a certain capacity is this idea of once you've made the art and you've put it in the world, it's kind of not yours anymore. It's now up to how people interact with it to decide what it is for them. And I can't help but wondering if that's part of what
00:13:33
Speaker
I can't speak for everyone. I know for me, it's what like has probably caused some hesitation around sharing art, you know? And I wonder, do you see, do you see correlation in that kind of thing? Like, do you celebrate releasing the art or do you try to sort of like hold onto it as long as you can? I, for me, when I write something and I'm proud of it, I wanted out immediately. Like I'm like, Oh, I hate that. Like I have to wait for journals to get back to me. Like, why can't it be the next day? Um, like, like I submitted like,
00:14:01
Speaker
two poems the other day. And I'm just like, when are they gonna get back to me? And with Lauren, it's been like three days, like, yeah, three months, probably. So for me, it's like, when I think something's good, I hacked, I wanted out there immediately because I don't want to overthink it and then think, oh, this sucks. So that's why I really like Patreon, because I can put those first drafts on there. And like,
00:14:21
Speaker
Now what I've really been hating is the poem a day thing for, for National Poetry Month because I feel like every poem so far has been not good. So, so in that way I'm like, fuck, I'm like, do I geeky my own work from like my own Patreon subscribers? I don't want to keep sharing these like shitty drafts.
00:14:38
Speaker
But when I'm really proud of something, I'm like, everyone, look at this right now. So yeah, you know, it's funny. So about I guess would have been like 12 years ago now. I started doing a poem a day. I did a poem a day for a year and then I kept going and I did it for like I think eight or nine years. And and it was it was a weird experience, right? Because it was like it got me through a lot of ups and downs and those kinds of things. But it's that
00:15:09
Speaker
you know what you're speaking on i'm very familiar with is that thing of like having made a commitment to share but being like but today sucks and so what do i do with it and and i've always found that um when you when how do i put it it's like when you overshare those like oh you know even though you're keeping consistency and it's not really about an individual piece um it inevitably sort of like wears on the audience you know and you you um
00:15:38
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like it's like I had a friend once describe it as like every time you share something you're making an agreement with your audience to like do the best you can and every time you betray them, they trust you a little bit less, you know, and so those daily poetry I don't know how much I believe in them anymore. I don't know. I skipped yesterday. I'm planning to skip today. Like it's funny though, because
00:16:02
Speaker
the men who are subscribed to my Instagram subscription thing are like, oh my God, I love these, these are amazing. And I'm like, really? I'm like, okay, if people who don't normally read poetry think it's good, then that's probably a good sign.
Subjective Nature of Good Poetry
00:16:20
Speaker
But I'm still like, I hate these. And so when I finally do write something good and post, hopefully today, and post a page, I wanna be like, look, didn't mean to ghost you guys, but this sucks.
00:16:30
Speaker
This sucks so hard. I'm sort of skipping ahead. I've got this list of stuff I wanted to ask you, but I'm wondering, because we're sort of on the topic, do you have factors or touch points in your estimation of what makes a good poem? Whether you're writing or when you're reading and interacting and you've got these hallmarks of a good poem?
Commercial vs Academic Poetry
00:16:58
Speaker
That's a tough question because they are like poems by Sylvia Plath, I think are incredible. And then there are poems by like, um, Oh my God. My friend, Aaron Taylor, like I said in another interview, like that, like their work would make an academic like scream because it is so non-traditional.
00:17:20
Speaker
Um, but so I think, I think their work is so good, but like, I also like, oh my God, this lady of that moment is great. So, and those are two completely different styles. So it really, I feel like it really all depends on the writer and what the writer is trying to evoke and what they're trying to say. Um, so if that, if that's like a really general way of saying it, but like.
00:17:40
Speaker
There's never really a poem where I'm like, fuck, I hate this. There was in my MFA, it's funny because my dad listened to or read the creative independent thing and then listened to another podcast. I was like, wow, you really didn't have a good time in West Virginia. Oh, I did not, Bob. No, I did not. But there was someone in my MFA who was writing funny poetry.
00:18:06
Speaker
And this is someone who gave me terrible feedback on my trauma poems, like did not understand it, thought they were bad. And they would just like half-assedly write these like funny poems. And I was just like, I hate this. Why are we here? Why are you here? So.
00:18:27
Speaker
So maybe it's the opposite. Yeah. So maybe it's like, what makes a bad poem is like leading too much into the, like the goofy. It's leading too much. Cause I, there are some poems that are goofy that are great, but like it's when, it's when you're like trying and the, the reader can tell. Um, yeah. That's when I'm just like, like the tone is like, you gotta make us believe like you actually care about what you're writing and I, or like you like, you know, um, yeah.
00:18:57
Speaker
So yeah, I don't think what else makes a poem like bad, but it's like, even like, it's funny because Ruby Carr like has some incredible lines that are in like, or like, sorry, let me, but actually she's, she'll structure a whole ass like sentence as a poem. When I think that could be a one line in a much bigger landscape. Like, like, like her work is like, this is an awesome,
00:19:26
Speaker
line, can you put this in like a bigger, but, but, you know, go her. Cause like, damn. Um, but my hackles get up anytime I hear that name. So I'm just biting my tongue. No, yeah. No, I cause like, it's just funny. Cause it's like, you can't, you can't just like, cause I see people a lot like shit on like certain, like, like people they think are commercial poets. And I'm like, you guys like this appeals to like so many people.
00:19:56
Speaker
people are going to want to read more poetry after this. It is like, yeah. Cause someone said to me, this man was like, um, it's such a shame that poetry doesn't have any reach.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I was like, cause he's like, cause they never hear about it. And I go, just because you're not tuned into it, doesn't mean it doesn't have reach. Cause poetry is like, is having, like, has been having a big resurgence for a while. Not that it ever went away, but like, you know, you have that poet at the white house, I can't think of her name right now. And. Shit. Amanda something. Yeah.
Community of Supporters
00:20:32
Speaker
Who's great. And like, so I'm like, okay. Reach. But what helps with that reach is like poets like,
00:20:39
Speaker
And I'm trying to think of other people, but yeah. You're absolutely right. And it is something I always have to clock myself on. And I can't help wondering if like a part of my sort of like, Oh, fuck that poetry is like just jealousy of like, Holy fuck, look at what they're doing. That's incredible. You know, like.
00:20:58
Speaker
write a sentence and call it a poem and then sell a hundred thousand copies. Yeah. I'm like, fuck, I wish I could do that, but I can't. Me neither. So don't worry. So, you know, the show really like this podcast tends to
00:21:17
Speaker
reflect on questions of community and intimacy and connections and things like that. And I'm really curious about your sort of experience in some of these regards and somewhere I want to kind of start with is how
00:21:31
Speaker
Let me put it like this. If you have one, how did you go about finding a sort of community within your art? And if you don't, like, how would you go about finding one? Can I explain my community?
00:21:48
Speaker
So I am someone who randomly moves to one place and then all of my friends are scattered everywhere. So I have like my like online slash like IRL community people just from everywhere that like it's like a whole bit it's just like so much fun and I love them so much and then I have this community of just men
00:22:12
Speaker
who will purchase anything, like I make purchasable and will just like, like the majority of my Patreon subscribers are men who also think I'm attractive. But they're so respectful and nice and they just want me to be able to eat.
Narcissism and Empathy in Art
00:22:28
Speaker
And I'm just like, yay, okay. So it's like a weird, cause it's like, mom, I like my pals. And then it's like men who think, who think me hot and want me to
00:22:40
Speaker
to succeed. And I'm just like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Interesting. Yeah. And a lot of my slide to grow from, you know, that's a good, yeah. So I feel like I would like to move somewhere that has like a poetry scene in a community where I can like kind of connect more that way. Um, but for now I am in niche again and, uh, I, uh, who knows my, my like cat sitter is also a poet.
00:23:06
Speaker
So, yeah. Well, and I find too, like, you know, writing in general is such a isolating art inherently that it's it's often very difficult to like. It's like it's like wrangling cats with writers, you know, because it's like they all kind of want to be alone, but they don't actually. And they and they've all, you know, and so I I've never been able to really crack the code of like getting a bunch of writers together. Usually there's like a writer in the group kind of thing.
00:23:34
Speaker
What really hurts me is knowing that the fiction people in the MFA still have a workshop thing that they do via Zoom monthly. And I'm just like, oh, so y'all really liked each other. Can't relate. I feel like it's funny because one of my friends said that the creative nonfiction community is so much easier to get along with. I'm like, maybe poets just suck.
00:24:03
Speaker
Like maybe, like I recently like had an experience with a narcissist who has a secret tumbler full of some of the most self-indulgent like just like angry man poetry I've ever read. And I'm like, oh, and you ended up being a narcissist. Wait, is there a correlation here? Like, so maybe we suck. It, you know,
00:24:32
Speaker
It's a question I ask myself that I ask myself almost every day, like, is it me? Is it me who sucks, you know? But it is, you know, it's it's it's one of those really razor edge questions of I find any artist, you know, or any art style is like, you sort of have to walk
00:24:54
Speaker
It's like, uh, narcissism and empathy are actually two sides of the same coin, you know? And, and you really have to like walk that fine line between, between the two without slipping off and too long side of it, you know?
Art as Therapy
00:25:09
Speaker
And, um, cause they both have the end of like, uh,
00:25:14
Speaker
It's like the coin is sort of like the greater good and one is like the greater good for yourself and one's the greater good for the collective, you know, and that's what art can achieve, right? Fuck, you know, to believe in your own words so much that you give them other people and be like, this is going to change your opinion on something like that.
00:25:35
Speaker
You kind of got to be a narcissist a little bit. A little bit, yeah. I mean, the thing is, like, I really just feel I feel like I write for myself. And then I'm always surprised when someone reaches out and said this helped me or disconnected with me. Like, I'm always surprised. I've been publishing since 2013 and I'm still surprised every single time. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, is that 10 years?
00:25:58
Speaker
I've been a poet for 10 years. Oh, God. Wow. That is fucking wild. That's amazing. To that end, actually, how do you find yourself celebrating or in turn being celebrated by friends like by, you know, artist friends and by artist friends?
00:26:19
Speaker
Um, it's funny because I feel like I never stop to like pause and go, wow, like, thanks guys. Like, I mean, I say thank you, but I feel like I never really pause, like feel the emotion of like, that's so cool. Like that's so nice because like I literally had the day before my book came out, I posted on my close friends. I am so worried. This is book is going to be dead on arrival and that no one in my actual personal life doesn't care. Meanwhile, everyone cared, like, which was so fucking wild. Um,
00:26:49
Speaker
And two of my friends, they took me out to a speakeasy, and they gave me a little, it was cute. But I never, it's weird to think that, the concept of being celebrated by other people is foreign to me. It's like, oh, really? Especially coming out of three years of grad school where I was supported by two people. And all of my work was constantly shut on for three years in workshop setting.
00:27:19
Speaker
So it's like, Oh, really? Okay. Thank you. Oh
Trust in Artists and Personas
00:27:26
Speaker
my God. Thank you. I'm working on this with my new therapist. So she'll, we'll figure it out.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny that actually leads me into my very next question because, um, do you believe in art as therapy? Um, you know, cause I'm, I'm someone who like, I'm like, go see a therapist, like no arts, art therapy, no repairing your car. Isn't therapy. No going for run. Isn't therapy working out. Isn't therapy therapies therapy, you know, but, but art, I don't know. Art has a different texture to it in terms of expression.
00:27:57
Speaker
So I wouldn't necessarily call it a replacement, but I'm wondering how you feel it fits into that process.
00:28:04
Speaker
What's funny is as long as I want to be like, it's not therapeutic. Sometimes it really actually feels good to just write through something. I feel like I write because I have to and not really because I want to. I feel like poetry is the best way I know how to communicate my inner feelings, I guess.
Transition to Full-Time Writing
00:28:26
Speaker
I could write a great essay, but for some reason, poetry is just where I can actually speak from my heart, I guess.
00:28:33
Speaker
Um, and sometimes it feels good to, to write a poem about a situation and be like, okay, this is a thing. This is awesome. But it's never like, yeah, it's not a replacement for my Prozac. Can you, do you find you can trust artists?
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah, can't you can't the demographic of artists that I feel like I can't trust or like content creators on YouTube. Yeah, for some reason, like, I mean, I have some friends who are YouTubers who are amazing, but like, holy fuck, there is just something in that world that like makes certain people like, I don't know, their whole character changes. They become their shocked face thumbnails. They do. You really, really do. They become their Internet persona. And then it's like,
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah, but I have so many friends who are still course for who do that and are great. But can you trust poets? Probably not. I wouldn't trust me. I feel like that's such an interesting question.
00:29:45
Speaker
Like, I don't know. I mean, artists are, technically they say, I don't know who made up the quote, but it's like, good artists steal, but like great, or no, good artists steal. No, wait, what is it? Good artists borrow? Yeah. Great artists steal. Yeah. So it's like, maybe you can't throw subs. I don't know.
00:30:06
Speaker
It's a thing of like, be careful what you tell a writer kind of thing, because it'll probably end up in a book, right? Yeah, I feel bad for, no, I don't feel bad, but like I theoretically feel bad for every man who's ever done me wrong because it just ends up in a poem. Like I don't know how to tell this guy recently, like had like a, like a reunion with like, um,
00:30:25
Speaker
that like it's like oh so I wrote a poem about you and I and not only do not only do I write about like your tv series that I love so much but I also um name like first name last name the first girl you ever kissed in the first line of the fucking poem I'm so sorry um you know serves them right you know
00:30:48
Speaker
It's funny because it's probably the most positive poem I've ever written about someone, so he can feel good about that, I guess. That even when I was mad at him, I was still nice. But then you got The Narcissist, I just wrote a poem about him and that shit is like, I posted it on my Twitter circle and everyone was like,
00:31:10
Speaker
Yo, this is fucking sad. Oh, my God. This guy sucks. Yeah. And I was just like, that's good. That's what I was trying to convey. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. So I want to switch gears a little bit because you have this whole other kind of like day job that going on where you're a pop culture writer and
00:31:35
Speaker
Can you tell me just like a little bit more about the job and what it entails and then I kind of want to unpack it a little bit more from there?
00:31:43
Speaker
Um, it's funny cause I, I have always been freelancing, right? And then I moved here for a job that ended up being just fucking terrible. Um, so I rage quit that job and started freelancing full time with no savings and no backup plan and somehow was able to pay my rent freelancing. Now they don't tell you that you have to pay a million fucking dollars in freelancer taxes at the end of the year. Um,
Joy of Writing Pop Culture
00:32:10
Speaker
But I somehow, through my friend Dan Yell, who is a beauty editor at Glamour, she recommended, so the independent has a spinoff like thing for Let's Be More Modern and Millennial called Indie 100. And so I'm like suddenly I'm writing for the fucking independent.
00:32:35
Speaker
And I'm like, this looks really good probably on a CV or like in my portfolio, like, okay. Little did I know that on the 23rd of December of last year, I'd be sitting on the floor, no, of the year before last year, I would be sitting on the floor of the Detroit airport on like the day before Christmas Eve, submitting to this job listing for Games Radar. Because I'm like, why not? Like, who the fuck knows? Why not?
00:33:01
Speaker
And I don't hear anything for six weeks, so I'm like, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, oh, you've been shortlisted for a senior position. And I'm like, did you email the wrong person? You can admit it if you did. I won't be that hurt.
00:33:18
Speaker
Just a little. Yeah, so I had three interviews and I still can't believe I have this job because it is so much fun. And I got to write about Star Wars all day. I got an essay about why we need Shrek 5. That's going to come out next week. They just let me write a Shrek manifesto.
00:33:44
Speaker
So it's really fun. I like, I love pop culture and I feel like that reflects in my poetry too.
Pop Culture Influence on Poetry
00:33:50
Speaker
So I feel like it makes sense that being my day job. Um, but also I would like to be a stay at home wife who just, who just freelances and hangs out with her cats. So that's like the dream goal. Um, but.
00:34:04
Speaker
For right now, I'm really happy, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that's often I've definitely clocked. There's a recurring motif throughout your poetry. There's, you know, there's references to Last Podcast of Left and Harry Zabowski. And there's a lot of Twin Peaks in there. There's a couple poems about Laura, Laura Palmer in there. And do you does that start with like, did you intend that? Were you like, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write a poem for Henry or or or did it just sort of come out and then you were like, oh, this is actually about this.
00:34:32
Speaker
It's funny because I started, my idea was to write a poem that uses lines from last podcast on the left. And what it ended up being is each line is about a subject they talked about on.
00:34:48
Speaker
So I have Mothman in there, I have like a reference to their Paula Mayombe episode. And so I just was like, oh, because I had three lines and I was like, oh, okay, yeah. So I didn't really, so I set out to write something different and once again, it ended up different, but similar. But recently I wrote a poem that I hope someone picks up soon, which I literally went through
00:35:12
Speaker
every single episode of Kids in the Hall and like made a poem full of like like strung the lines together and I actually think it's bomb um but um my Laura Palmer poems I love Twin Peaks I have like a little Twin Peaks like motif thing behind me
00:35:28
Speaker
Um, I used to have her picture right here, but it was like really distracting for people in interviews. So I put it on my wall over there. Um, but I love her so much. And like, it's funny if people are like, you're Audrey Horan. And I'm like, but Laura has a double life and she did all this nefarious shit. And like, I relate. Um, so I feel like doesn't really hold a candle to Laura in that regard. So I feel like, um,
00:35:53
Speaker
When I really love something, I really love a piece of media. It becomes embedded in my subconscious and it just comes out on the page about me really wanting to.
00:36:06
Speaker
That poem in the book about Laura, I was commissioned to write that for a t-shirt company that would specialize on women filmmakers or women in pop culture. I don't remember the name of it because they folded, but it
Dynamics of Poetry Workshops
00:36:23
Speaker
was still cool because when they put out their Laura Palmer shirts, they put my poem on a card that came with the shirts, which was cool.
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah. So that was like, that's like the one time I was asked to do something and actually like, it's like, okay, I can do this. Um, cause even in my like MFA when they was like, Hey, you have to write about this. I'd be like, how can I not write about this and pretend it's about this title? All right. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just write whatever you want to them and say, this is what it's about. Yeah. That's a good strategy. I got to note that.
00:36:58
Speaker
Children if you are in an MFA program or in or in a workshop in undergrad or something literally Just you can't think of what to write for the prompt write something put a title that is similar to the prompt or evokes the prompt and then Like put on your best like just like Oscar winning face and just tell your workshop that like no But I'm just trying to evoke with this was but I ever want to be like wow
00:37:26
Speaker
I am so impressed. Basically, you just gaslight everybody. Yeah. That's a good strategy right there. That's kind of what workshop is, especially if you're defending like a bad poem. Yeah.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, I have like a little like monthly writing thing where we share like we write prompts together and then we talk about them afterwards. But I've yet to find a circle where we share poems and I'm terrified. I'm terrified of that because it's like I don't really, you know, when I put out a poem, I'm like, I've spent enough time with it that I'm sort of done and I don't necessarily need to hear or want to hear, you know. But
00:38:08
Speaker
And I think I cannot feeling like anytime I get feedback, good or bad, I'm like, yeah, cool. Thank you. And then I just like delete the poem, you know? So it's like, I feel like it's really brave to be even be joining those circles, you know?
00:38:25
Speaker
I agree. I've been using my Instagram close friends as like a poetry workshop. Like I could not figure out the last line of a certain poem. And everyone was like, okay, what about this? And what about this? And I was just like, this is awesome. Like I like this is this I'm actually work on like crowdsourcing, like workshopping was called in a way like this was like this was cool.
00:38:47
Speaker
Because in my MFA, there wasn't even just like a, let me try to understand a poem that's not about mountains and shit. It was like, I'm gonna dismiss this poem entirely because I don't understand it. And I'm just like, oh my God, no one in this program has ever been through anything. That's weird. Didn't have that on my bingo card. So I would just apply the feedback from my workshop leader and just throw away everyone else's feedback.
Writing Pop Culture Features
00:39:16
Speaker
You're not supposed to do that you guys, but when it's just 10 people telling you, I don't get it because if you were assaulted, why would you go back to the person?
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah. That was a real question. That was a real question I got. Written in red pen too. So I felt like I like, not only did I get an F, but also like, um, so when you have a good group of people who understand your work, like who are open to listening to it, like, because like my close friends is like people who like my work. So it's like, Oh, cool. We can all like kind of connect with us. Like it's a mix of writers and people who
00:39:55
Speaker
who don't really read poetry, but like my poetry or do read
Nostalgia in Media
00:39:59
Speaker
poetry, blah, blah. And so when you have a good group like you're golden, when you have a workshop full of people who are just as nervous about workshop as you are and also know this is like for a grade and shit, it kind of changes the whole dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So a little bit more, I had a question about the writing job about
00:40:23
Speaker
the idea of being a pop culture writer and the idea of sort of like experiencing this, you know, this art and then having to sort of formulate an opinion on it. And I'm wondering what your, I think the first part of the question that I'm curious about is like, do you have a process around that? Like, and do you find that it's sort of like, is it kind of ruining how you're engaging with TV, movies, music, you know, are you just over analyzing?
00:40:49
Speaker
Luckily I've only done one review and I hated it. I hated reviewing a TV show. I am not going to be a Rotten Tomatoes critic. It is not for me. Um, because like, even in things that are objectively bad, I'm like, Oh, but
00:41:03
Speaker
Like, like I love a lot of crap, a lot of stuff that is like considered worse of the worst. I'm like, I fucking love this shit. Um, so like, so no, but I, when I sit down to write a feature, I really just like word vomit, like, cause I try to write features only about like things I love or things I feel passionate about. So like, you know, I wrote about why the last holiday movie sucks and I wrote it and that's someone who loves the franchise fucking so much.
00:41:33
Speaker
And then I read about why the new Texas Translate Massacre sucks and insults the first movie, insults everything that movie did for the horror community, et cetera, et cetera. So I was able to just like scream for a while. But like Shrek, like I wrote a four-inch-it-word thing for...
00:41:54
Speaker
It's going to come out in the next issue of SFX Magazine, because that's like our sister magazine or whatever. And they let me just write about Trek for 400 words about why it's one of the best things in the whole world and why it means so much to me. So it was easy to sit down and be like, oh my god, Trek V is coming out. We need this. Here's why we need this. The world sucks. Aren't you sad? This isn't the idea of just a fucking goofy ass DreamWorks movie coming out.
00:42:22
Speaker
about a farting ogre and his talking donkey best friend like in a in a fairy tale world that is like was kind of like released in like a like a parody way of like Disney movies like don't you want that right now like uh so that's what i love it yeah i love it yeah how how do you find that like this is a
00:42:49
Speaker
I don't know why I'm caveatting this question. How do you find the competence to unpack that? Do you just sit down and type it out and say, it's just what I think, so fuck it? Or how do you get to a level where you share that, if that makes any sense?
00:43:09
Speaker
I, there was, there was like some, when I was just starting to freelance and like, and like, or really take it seriously and like write about, like try to, try to put stuff out there and stuff. Um, I had, it really just took one person who is now like the editor in chief of like a really big publication, um, tell me that it was good. And I was like, ah, like you did this for a living and like you're in charge of people and stuff and you think this is good.
00:43:38
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. All right. And I kind of just took that and like ran with it. Not to be Lady Gaga, but there could be a hundred people in the room and 99 don't believe in you, but one does. And that was it.
00:43:53
Speaker
I mean, there's something to be said for that though, right? Yeah. Yeah. It really took just one person being like, no, no, this is good. And I was like, fuck. Because sometimes you write and you're like, this is good. And then it's a thing really bad and no one tells you. And you need that. You fucking need that as a writer or else. But yeah, I really just took one man who's in his 50s telling me, this is good, kid. Me being like, OK. And now I'm writing about Shrek confidently.
00:44:22
Speaker
That's amazing. You know, I cannot remember. I know I've seen them all, but I feel like I remember the fourth one being kind of a bummer. Yeah. So I'm like, I think that might be my only hesitation around a new one is that like, I hope they
00:44:39
Speaker
go back to the first two and they don't keep the trend of like he hates his family and he wishes they don't exist or whatever you gotta figure there's enough time has passed it's not like when it's not gonna be like when when baby geniuses came out with a fucking third and a fourth and a fifth and they were all supposed to be a trilogy
00:44:57
Speaker
And then, but it turns out, and I found this out literally today, literally right before this, that they actually had a TV show that only aired in Italy. And so what they did is they just smashed a bunch of episodes together and made them into three movies.
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah, brilliant. I mean, that's like, yeah, it kind of hurt my heart a little bit. But, um, so you figure like, I feel like when enough time passes as like a sequel can be great, like the, the Top Gun, the Top Gun sequel I came out was surprisingly incredible.
Supporting Artists and Celebrating Art
00:45:34
Speaker
I don't think I've ever in my life supported the military industrial complex as intensely as it did for that two hours. It came out to seem like USA. I'm Canadian and I'm like chanting in the theatres. Suddenly you're like, yeah, you're going to go buy American flag and put it above your couch like a frat boy. Exactly. It made sense in the moment.
00:46:01
Speaker
But yeah, no, it's an interesting trend right now too, because it feels like they've kind of cracked the code of the sort of nostalgia sequel and they've gotten substantially better. I know that the new Matrix got kind of ignored, but I ended up rewatching it recently and really, really enjoying it. And I feel like that was sort of the start of this new wave of like, they've kind of figured it out a little bit. Yeah.
00:46:29
Speaker
I agree. Coming back, just looking at the time, I've just got a couple last questions for you. Speaking on the idea of supporting artists, and you were just mentioning about the idea of just one person saying you're doing good can mean so much. How could you encourage friends or family or loved ones or anything like that to better support the artists in their life?
00:46:59
Speaker
Ooh, um, it's just like paying their rent, you know? Yeah, that's actually, that's, it's funny because my, my parents don't really necessarily understand poetry, right? So, so let's say you have a friend who's like a poet and you don't really understand poetry, just buy their shit, just retweet their, their publications, or just text them and tell them good fucking job.
00:47:24
Speaker
That's all I want to hear, really, is from my parents. It's like, I don't understand this, but I know it's good, and I'm proud of you, honey. My dad listens to every... The last podcast I was on, he listened. He'll listen to this one, too. He's just very... It's just furry. I don't mean to say cute in a facetious way, but it's fucking adorable. Especially when my friends get excited, or at least pretend to get excited. It's fucking adorable. It makes me so happy.
00:47:54
Speaker
literally just be present even if you don't get the material necessarily just like good job kiddo or i was at the store and i saw a notebook that was pretty and maybe you could use it because you're a writer and it's like oh my god thank you yes or like you're a writer you probably drink coffee here is this blend of coffee i found that literally has what was it was bill paxon's face on it
00:48:19
Speaker
Oh my God. That's incredible. I was like, oh my God, thanks guys. So like literally small things, even if you don't want to like, so if you can't financially support someone, just telling them, babe, this is good. It's really like the best fucking thing you could do. Yeah. Well, you know, like I hate speaking broadly about all artists, but I feel like myself definitely included in this group and so many of the artists I've met.
00:48:48
Speaker
so much of the like root impulse to become an artist was looking for validation that they weren't getting, whether it was in the family or in their life. And so they decided, oh, okay, I'm going to be loud and I'm going to speak up and that's going to get me validation. So like, yeah, just giving them that is like what they, what they're needing, right?
00:49:08
Speaker
you'll find that like a lot of people have like this amazing response from like strangers but never hear anything from like certain people in their life and like because people in your life figure oh well other people are telling you it's good why the fuck do I ever tell you it's good it's like no you should just be telling me it's gonna make him your main friend and you like me exactly right yeah
00:49:32
Speaker
Um, so what is, what's next for you? You've, you've got this new book that's just come out. You're speaking on, you're saying that there's a third in the, in the trilogy. Is that sort of the next thing or is there more, more coming? Yeah, I'm currently, I thought it was going to be a full length. We'll see, but like it feels very much like it's going to be.
00:49:51
Speaker
Like I listen to me like the like the third like hopefully not as bad as scream three, but like scream Hey squeeze got some good stuff in it. Okay, like Parker Posey's in it and you cannot you cannot complain about that
00:50:10
Speaker
Not to be confused with Posey Parker. That's the bad one. Parker Posey's the good one. I had to explain that to someone to a Gen Zer the other day. And they were like, oh my god, Parker Posey should sue. And I was like, I agree. I so agree. But yeah, it's funny because James Gunn said this whole thing about how hard it is to make a good third movie. And I was like, oh my god, it's hard to make a good, you're right. So this has to be good. And I feel like these poems are maybe some of the strongest I've ever written.
00:50:39
Speaker
So I'm working on that. It's like, what else are you working on, Lauren? And I'm looking at my apartment and like, well, cleaning my depression hole.
00:50:50
Speaker
Uh, a clean apart photos of a clean apartment coming to an Instagram post near you. Um, hopefully. Um, but, um, last year I covered comic-con this year. I elected to not go to San go to San or where and cover comic-con because, well, I had a stroke, a mini stroke, like the day before. And, and then I walked around comic-con for like a whole week. Like, and I just, I feel like I'm traumatized from that. So I'm not going, but, um,
00:51:20
Speaker
Uh, I'm turning 30 this year and I think there will be a reading, um, in New York with a bunch of New York people, um, that hopefully clash is going to sort out and stuff for me. So that'll be cool. Come to my reading. It'll be really fun. Um, but yeah, I'm just working on this book and then.
00:51:42
Speaker
It's funny like what's next for you? I never know. Stuff just kind of happens. You're the master of your own destiny. Yeah well stuff just happens man. And suddenly it's like I wasn't working on this thing but now I'm working on this thing.
00:52:00
Speaker
And so, so, so who the hell knows? The only thing I confidently say is, yeah, I've been working out their book and Shrek comes, Shrek comes out next week, my manifesto, and that's God only. Yeah. Um, so just last two really quick questions. These are just sort of the, the, the universal questions of the show. The first one being, um, what does it mean to you to be a friend?
00:52:25
Speaker
Oh, that reminds me of the Golden Girls theme song so much. That's one of my favorite TV shows of all time. And yeah, you could write a whole ass sociological essay on what it means to be a friend from watching that show, from the way that they treat each other, how they go from bullying the shit out of each other to just being so loving. I feel like that's- It's called Pickrette's, Sicily, 1920.
00:52:48
Speaker
Yes. Or, or Rose saying, Oh my God, that's a real place too, that she said she's from. I can't think of it right now. But that is a real, when she mentioned all those ridiculous stories, it's a real place. But I don't know, being a friendly friend, when I think of like, like my best friend Rush, like, she is just, well, she's consistent. She's present. And she is like, unconditionally, like supportive.
00:53:17
Speaker
Um, and I feel like that's actually really hard to find because people have certain people in their lives or certain things. And so, so to love someone purely and like actively and, and excitedly, like is, I feel like a friend and I have a very, like, I call it a cult. So in the cult of Lauren, we celebrate each other. Um, we're excited to be each other's friend or else you can go. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:48
Speaker
I love that. I love that. And what is one thing that listeners could try doing this week to try and be a better friend to their group? That's a great question.
00:54:02
Speaker
Find out or just have a conversation about what your friends like. Not even what they like to do, but what movie do they love? What pop culture thing do they find themselves going back to? I find that so intimate for some reason.
00:54:19
Speaker
where it's like, what's the show that you fall asleep to every night? Even if it just reruns of Friends, it's like, I feel like finding out people's comfort shows or comfort movies or comfort songs is like such like a fun exchange of like, oh, like you're letting me into like, you know, what makes you happy? What chills you out? What leaves you anxiety? Like, I feel like it's always like a really fun conversation. And it also like makes me feel good to know that like you want to know that like Shrek is like,
00:54:44
Speaker
the greatest thing in the world. Like it just like that like like those little things that you think like wouldn't matter. Like when you show interest in those things like that's how you make someone feel really special.
00:54:53
Speaker
Yeah, I've always seen that as like, you know, when someone offers you like their favorite book, that's like it's really intimate. Oh, my God. It's scary because you're like, this is a part of me kind of. And if you don't like it, you're saying you don't like me. You know, when I when I when I really like a guy, my my or a woman, my more or a hot non binary person, my move is to give them a copy of Crush by Richard Seiken.
00:55:22
Speaker
Oh, yeah. That was my gateway drawn to poetry. And it's all love poems that are really heart wrenching. The worst thing you could say to me is, I didn't read it. It's like, I spent $14 on you. What? That's worse than being like, I don't get it. But yeah, that's my signature move. Love it. So yes, if you're listening to this right now, if someone gives you a book,
00:55:52
Speaker
or a movie or try to link it into an album because they love it and the fact that they think you'll love it too speaks to what they know about you and what they think of you. And so it's likely that they think you're special. So even if you think it's bullshit, just go with it. Okay, I don't want to think we're also gonna be talking about you in therapy for a really long time.
00:56:17
Speaker
Um, well, listen, that's, that's it for me. Do you have, um, places you would like listeners to find you links? I am motel siren on everything except for Snapchat. I don't know who has the motel siren handle on Snapchat, but they're living my dream. And, um, um, cause I don't know, but, um, yeah, most of us are on everything and my links are like in a link tree on everything. So which I feel like makes it easier for everyone.
00:56:47
Speaker
So. Well, thank you so much. This has been so wonderful. Yeah, I just I think you're an incredible writer and I cannot wait to see the next thing. And I'm so thankful that you got back to me so quick. I was so surprised. It was so nice. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. This was awesome.
00:57:11
Speaker
. .
00:57:28
Speaker
And that's it. Thanks again to Lauren for coming on the show. I cannot recommend her books enough. If you want to check them out, follow the links that I've put in the show notes and be sure to give her a follow as well on Instagram or anywhere else you can find her. And while you're there, why not sign up for the friendless newsletter? You'll get monthly recommendations of books, movies, music, podcasts, so much more, along with writing prompts and tips on how to be a better friend to yourself and to your community. All the links, as I mentioned, are in the show notes.
00:57:56
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show, give the old five star review wherever you can and be sure to spread the word to anyone who will listen and then come on back next week for another episode of the ongoing reading series of my new novel out of town. I really hope to catch you then, but hey, I won't worry about that now and neither should you because that is then and this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweeties.
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you