Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the island where the nights are long. The miracles are suspicious. And the blood is definitely not wine. We're your hosts, Laura and Noah.
Speaker: This is Fans of Flanagan. We know it's late. But it's time for Mass. Midnight Mass. Midnight Mass.
Speaker: Welcome back to Fanzo Flanagan. I'm Noah. I'm Laura. And you've heard it twice now. This week we are talking about episode four called Book Four, Lamentations of Midnight Mass.
Speaker: But before we get into that, Laura, what have you been watching?
Speaker: You ask this, we go to it over this every time.
Speaker: you want me to go first? I don't know right now why I was so unprepared. You can go first. um We've just had like a long midsummer break. So I'm out of my groove, I guess.
Speaker: You're good. so
Speaker: I'm sorry. No, it's I can talk. um Jacqueline and I have been going through and been watching the New York Times top 100 films of the 21st century that was like voted for by like directors, actors, like people like that.
Speaker: They put off this list. um And so we... We were going through it and watching these movies, um most that she hasn't seen, some that I haven't. And one of those movies was Mulholland Drive.
Speaker: And I had not seen that movie, and I didn't really see any David Lynch movie. And so I was in for a treat. ah
Speaker: i didn't know quite how to feel after watching it.
Speaker: ah And so I like watched YouTube videos. was like, okay, that's interesting, but I don't think that's a movie that I'm going to rewatch anytime soon or at all.
Speaker: So if you like it, I will not judge you. And I understand just not for me. That's fair. um In terms of theater movies, we have seen Superman.
Speaker: the the new one directed by James Gunn. And I'm in the minority and I was a little disappointed by it and wasn't a huge fan. I just thought it was kind of hollow and empty and didn't have the emotional gut punches that Guardians has or I had seen in Guardians.
Speaker: so And I guess the last one I want to mention is in Bruges. which is a Martin McDonough film. I don't know if you've heard of him. He did a movie couple years back called three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri. That was um in the Oscars. I think for best picture, I think Frances McDormand was put up for best actress.
Speaker: um Anyway, but same director, I believe.
Speaker: Now that i'm thinking about it, I hope I'm not wrong. I'm going to look it up just so I'm not wrong. it have Ralph Fiennes and Colin Farrell? Yes. Brendan Gleeson.
Speaker: Yes. Amazing. Yeah, so I am right. It is um Three Billboards, the same same guy who did Banshees of Indochirin, which came out like three years ago. Yeah.
Speaker: I tend to like his stuff, the little that he's done and in Bruges is great. It's, it's so simple and the runtime not that bad and it's got three great actors in it.
Speaker: And I, I just had such a great time. Um, I'd re I, this is a a rewatch. I've seen this movie before.
Speaker: I don't want to say too much about it. It's just, it's a dark comedy. So there's points where you're gonna be laughing and points where like, oh, that's horrible. So, um, yeah, go watch it. It's a fun movie.
Speaker: What's it on right now? I don't know if it's on anything. I own the DVD for it. So we just watched it that way, but let me see if I can pull it up.
Speaker: Um, Yeah, it doesn't look like you can stream it anywhere for free, but you could probably get it on YouTube or um Amazon.
Speaker: You could rent it on there, which is crazy. You can rent movies on YouTube nowadays. You can? Yeah. How much? Like four bucks. Is it any than Amazon? No, it's the same.
Speaker: I have such a frustration with that pricing.
Speaker: Why? What's the frustration? Do you remember going to like Blockbuster or Hollywood video? No, my parents did Netflix when they would mail the discs.
Speaker: No, it's fine. All right. Listen.
Speaker: I'm sorry. I never did Blockbuster. I never, I never did that. It's okay. You missed out. It was, it was a vibe. It was an experience. i worked for a Hollywood Video for probably a couple of years.
Speaker: um You could get a disc and they had like almost the whole library of movies in existence in the store. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. New releases, $3.99, right? Comparable to what you can rent it from on Amazon and I guess YouTube. Older movies, $2.99. But here's the thing.
Speaker: You get to keep the disc for five days.
Speaker: So why? how am I going to feel okay with giving this company $4 plus tax and hours to watch it once?
Speaker: Well, isn't it like 48 hours to watch it, but once you press play... To start it. It's like 24 hours. It's like 48 hours to get it started. And then you got to finish it within whatever 24 hours after you start. I don't know.
Speaker: yeah i don't care. It's $4. And now I'm on a time crunch. How dare you?
Speaker: And not everything is available. Yeah. That's the frustrating part of it. Again, I say, how dare you? Physical media.
Speaker: Yes, exactly. I was just about to say a long time ago, we talked about one of my favorite movies um with Hugh Grant called About a Boy. the next day we were in a mall and there was a like a ah movie, comic book, music, music.
Speaker: store i don't know what it was called i'm so sorry but it has like also like the little toys and things like the the the um pop what are those i know what they are pop figures or something like that yeah if you know what i'm talking about awesome funko i know what they funko pops thank you i know what funko pops are i have add okay and all like you know the little uh Like things that, you know, kind of go like t-shirts and purses and whatever. Anyway.
Speaker: Box lunch. Hot topics. It's similar to box box lunch, but it was less on the things and more on the movies and music. But they had a copy of About a Boy for like two bucks. And I was like, Corey, I got to get this. And he's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, I know I've watched this with you. You really like it. We're buying this movie.
Speaker: i'm a I'm a big fan of physical media. I'm a big fan of owning whatever you can on disc, on tape, on whatever you choose. Because you don't know when they're going to take it off streaming. You don't know if the digital copies that you buy, they're going to take away. You have no control.
Speaker: yeah none and they can change it yeah they can take things out they started editing scenes out of the office whether you agree with what the media is or not i don't agree with taking things out so exactly and sometimes the streaming just sucks and it like buffers and buffers and it's just terrible Or has like crazy amounts of ads and you're already paying for the subscription and you still have to sit through the ad.
Speaker: Don't get me started.
Speaker: It's upsetting. So again, how dare you? This podcast is presented by, I'm kidding. No, honestly.
Speaker: What else have you seen? ah from the top 100 we have seen mad max fury road which holds up and still really good um that's a great movie yeah no country for old men which um for me it's my second rewatch but the first rewatch was years ago i did i forgot just how good that movie was it is incredible um
Speaker: Again, with great actors. So go watch it if you haven't seen it. And then go watch YouTube videos on it. Because that's now like one of my favorite hobbies. Is like watching these video essays ah on movies and stuff like that.
Speaker: ah Watch Get Out.
Speaker: Again, good movie. What about you?
Speaker: What have you been watching? We went to the theaters. My mom took my boys and saw Superman. And then she was shocked at the language.
Speaker: And I was like, what do you think you were going to see? But that's okay. um And then my youngest boy and my daughter, they didn't want to see Superman. So we picked Lilo and Stitch. And so we all went to the theater at the same time. And we watched Lilo and Stitch. They watched Superman.
Speaker: I liked it. There were changes that they made. But I don't think they were so far out of the realm of the story that it was really a bad thing.
Speaker: There were a lot of complaints about how they changed the decisions made at the end. But I was like, first of all, it makes sense in reality. Second of all, it wasn't as dramatic as they made it seem. And overall, it was a really cute movie.
Speaker: I didn't hate it. That's good. I'm glad you liked it. Yeah. Did you end up seeing that one? Yes. Yeah. So you know what I mean. Yes. ah
Speaker: Let's see. It's not the guy to pick. I'm sorry. I just got it. i No, i am not the guy. No, that's fair. The voice was not good. But then once I saw they were switching them to like the actors instead of the CGI, then it was funny.
Speaker: I thought he was funny, but like the voice doesn't match the character from the cartoon. But the other guy was hilarious.
Speaker: cannot remember his name, but he's been in a lot of comedy movies. yeah So funny. I laughed out loud. Not always easy to do. What's his name? Bill Magnuson.
Speaker: Billy Magnuson.
Speaker: He's great. What else do we know him from? Oh, he was in Game Night. That was a funny movie. I was just about to mention that movie. I'm like, if you haven't seen Game Night, go watch it. because I have. funny That one was great.
Speaker: Let's see. He's been in a lot of stuff.
Speaker: Oh, James Bond movie. Good for you.
Speaker: for some reason, and he reminds me of Alan Tudyk.
Speaker: Who's that?
Speaker: Oh, yeah, he does. Yeah. I don't know him by his name. I know who he is.
Speaker: That guy. Yeah. Yeah. um On Netflix, I finished season two of Yellow Jackets. I don't know what to say about that show. It's so good, but it's so disturbing.
Speaker: And it's, I can't even like, I don't even know what to say about it. I can't describe it. When you get a chance, you watch it. You'll see what I mean. I will.
Speaker: I, yeah. I'm catching up on Andor right now. And then I plan to go watch Sandman. And then I probably will watch Yellow Jackets afterwards.
Speaker: Lucky for you, the whole of Sandman season two is out. um I ended up finishing the first episodes before the next batch were released. I think it was just like yesterday or the day before that they released the rest of them.
Speaker: I think that's it for me. If there's anything else, maybe it's just not
Speaker: notable enough to talk about. so Okay. There you go and Well, we're moving into book four, Lamentations of Midnight Mass.
Speaker: And the book of Lamentations is a collection of poetic laments for the destruction of Jerusalem. So it's only to keep in mind. Do you have any notable notables?
Speaker: A few. Mostly I was just engrossed in the story. um At the very beginning, we've got, I'm not taking over your narrative, I promise. But I just want to talk about um the doctor, Sarah.
Speaker: I don't know the actress's name. I don't. But her demeanor was so accurate. Like a doctor, you know, when everything's good, they're very light and airy. And then all of a sudden something serious goes on and then her demeanor just switched. I just really appreciated that, how accurate that was. And she did a great job.
Speaker: It was just spot on. Yeah. And then the scripture later on in the episode when Erin's going through her mother's things and she said her mom cross-stitched a scripture from Lamentations. It's actually from Lamentations chapter 1, verse 12.
Speaker: And the little quote in there on the cross-stitch...
Speaker: um
Speaker: If there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, essentially. I'm not quoting it exactly how it was on there, but that's kind of how it was. But the first part of the next verse, if you remember what happens in the very, very end, Noah, the very first part of the next verse says, from above hath he sent fire into my bones.
Speaker: There's lots of foreshadowing going on. much. In this episode. Lots and lots. Yep. Well, I only have one jump scare for this episode.
Speaker: I think I just have one, well, maybe two, kind of two. Okay. Okay. My one is the one at the very end. The very end.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: We'll get there. We'll get there. Okay. Maybe maybe three then. Maybe. Oh. I don't know. You can disagree with me then.
Speaker: You can dispute.
Speaker: Okay. So we are going into...
Speaker: What happened? So in the what happened, I will be going over the story arc for the episode. And that kind of breaks down what happened throughout entire episode. So first we have exposition.
Speaker: The community is sort of enthralled by the miracles going on. That's not the first scene we see, but it's obvious to see in the amount of people that are attending mass and the people that are expecting um Father Paul as they know him to to start speaking at mass.
Speaker: But we kind of skip over the exation exposition and go right into the inciting of incident, which where Aaron is...
Speaker: at the doctor, uh, at, it's Sarah, right? Yeah. Dr. Sarah gunning and she visiting her and doing a a regular checkup. And like you said, the doctors, the meter kind of switches because she can't find anything in, um, in the ultrasound that she's doing.
Speaker: And, um, says, tells Aaron, your baby's gone. you might've had a miscarriage or something. Your baby's just not there. um And she takes her blood.
Speaker: um She draws blood from Aaron and she leaves the vial out in the sun and eventually at some point sees the ah blood bubbling and then eventually explodes the vial.
Speaker: So that's adding some ah intrigue into the episode. Now, I don't know if I was just like zoning out right in that moment, but when it cracked,
Speaker: it made me jump a little bit. So for me, that was like a mini, mini teeny tiny jump scare.
Speaker: And then we have the rising action.
Speaker: Aaron and Riley sort of turned to each other for emotional support and they spend all night with each other and they just, they talk all night about trauma.
Speaker: um And really the main focus point in is afterlife and
Speaker: And in this conversation, there's a lot that's being said. Erin opens up about some childhood abuse that she kind of dealt with, with her mom, um more mental than anything.
Speaker: And also escaped a violent relationship with a, with her. I don't know if it was violent, if she said it was explicitly, but that's kind of the tone that I got um about her, her husband.
Speaker: um And I mean, the point with that is she said, if it wasn't for the baby, I would have stayed. And it was the baby that sort of saved her. And that that's, that's a huge
Speaker: point in the conversation because she, she was talking about how her mom was saying that or implying that
Speaker: Erin sort of ruined her life. So it's it's a really, it's a good juxtaposition. And we see Father Paul deteriorating very quickly physically. um He's not able to do any of the masses. He is having some sort of headaches, um some so some fits going on.
Speaker: um he says he's starving, but he doesn't eat any actual food. um And then we eventually see his skin burning in sunlight.
Speaker: and the climax for this one is joe collie's death death um this comes off the back of joe being really proud of himself that he was able to not get any beer any alcohol and he went to go see father paul to to talk about it with him and say hey i had a really bad day and
Speaker: Father Paul, or I guess we can just call him Pruitt at this point. Father Pruitt. yeah windows um
Speaker: He hugs him and says he's proud of him, but then he doesn't let go because he's that hunger has just started taking over him. And he accidentally kills him when Joe pulls away and hits his head on the table. And um his hugger gets to him and he drinks Joe's blood from the floor.
Speaker: And after this, we get the following action where Bev Keen discovers what has happened. And she immediately jumps into action, grabs two helpers, and coerces them to hide the body and um go take care of it.
Speaker: ah She calmly justifies Paul's actions as God's will and orders Joe's body to be disposed of in the water. um And she's manipulating events to preserve the illusion of holiness, which is helps with our themes that we'll discuss later on.
Speaker: And in the resolution, we get that Riley... Um, he he's going to go to confront father Pruitt with the things that he has said about Joe, because Joe was not an AA meeting because he had been killed. And so, um, father Pruitt said something about him going to visit his sister, but because of a previous conversation that Riley had with him, he knew that that was a lie.
Speaker: honestly can't remember the conversation. He asked um if they should wait to start their AA meeting until Joe got there. and Father Paul says, oh, I spoke with him earlier yesterday. He's doing really well. I saw him yesterday. He's gone to visit his sister. Yeah.
Speaker: And the other conversation he was talking about, feeling sad that he never left the island and he wanted to see his sister, but now he can't because she's dead. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Um, and so he's going to go confront father Pruitt about this, but he goes to do so in the, in the rec center and he opens the door and, or the doors open, sorry.
Speaker: And he sees father Pruitt knelt on the ground in prayer. And we see the, the quote unquote angel, uh,
Speaker: and father prude sees riley and he's like oh i don't know if he says like oh no or something like that he doesn't i don't think he says anything just says oh i yeah he says it like oh yeah and so the the vampire turns around and lunges at rightly and that's my jump scare that i had um
Speaker: And that's all we see. We see Father Pruitt close the door and the vampire sucking his blood. And we think, oh, maybe this is it for Riley. Right. So do you have anything to add? This is very shocking.
Speaker: I realized when I was watching it today that when Riley walks into that rec center and he sees Father Paul on the ground, And then he sees the man at the end of the room facing away in Father Pruitt's coat and hat.
Speaker: That his first thoughts were probably Father Pruitt's back. And so he kind of like is making sense of it, of what he's seeing.
Speaker: as our brains, you know, do in those moments. And I loved when Angel, they refer to his character Angel, when the angel, the demon, whatever you want to call him, turns around and Riley sees his face. his He like is shocked and he steps back. Like it was such a cool reaction. Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker: So genuine. Yeah, but I just realized he probably thought he was looking at Father Pruitt.
Speaker: that's That's a good point. Who's a man that he had respected and grew up with, you know, and then you turn around and it's this monster essentially. And then the look when father Paul is walking past as,
Speaker: that as he's being fed upon and he's watching him with his eyes, like Riley's looking at father Paul and father Paul's looking at him and just all the, like the subtle emotion, micro expressions in his face as father Paul or Pruitt, you know, walks around and closes the door. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: How scary is that somebody that you grew up with and trusted in your moment of need is complying and complacent and is part of this horror?
Speaker: that's That's the word is comply and complacent. That's a very important word.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great point. And notice that. i just ah You know how many times I've watched this show and it's just today that I was like, oh my gosh. You probably thought that.
Speaker: With the coat and the hat. Yeah.
Speaker: That's great. That's a good point. Yeah. So also in the behavior of the angel or the demon, it is very sentient. He knows what's going on.
Speaker: it's not it's not it's not so much as a mindless beast we're we're getting more of that because he's he's like doing this motion or something yeah yeah he did um and he does what father Pruitt asks him to and refreshes the the communion line um which that was horrifying in itself so disturbing it was just anyways was disturbing is is him cutting his hand with the cross just to drink his own blood. That was that that moment was really rough
Speaker: Yeah. I thought the confusion and his progression in those moments of like trying to figure out what he is, what's happening,
Speaker: was was really well done too. Mm-hmm. you know You see him sitting and thinking and he's realizing that the light is harmful and he can't leave his room in the daytime. And um and then the hunger. And then he cuts himself on the cross and then realizing, oh, I like this. This is what I'm craving. you know And then the and the scene with Joe.
Speaker: um i would consider that a jump scare. Just that cut scene to him feeding on Joe. from his head which was disturbing as well probably the most disturbing thing i've ever seen in any tv show or movie yeah ever um but if you think about it that in this man who doesn't know what he doesn't have like a mentor guiding him like he wants to do spoiler alert like he wants to do for the rest of
Speaker: the town. He wants to guide them through it in kind of a peaceful, orderly manner. He doesn't have that. He doesn't understand what's going on. So he's just kind of following like this instinctual behavior.
Speaker: So that is the natural outcome of what's what's happening. Because he doesn't want to hurt Joe, but he can't like control these urges that have taken him over either.
Speaker: So just just feeding from that that and that and that exit point, it was just... It was a lot. It was too much. But that was my second jump scare was just that cut scene to to that image.
Speaker: That was your second one? Yeah. Because it's really shocking. i don't and sudden i don't know if I can call it a jump scare. It is definitely disturbing and just makes you feel gross. But I don't i don't know if I can count that as a jump scare. Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. what was your What was your first one? The blood in the sun cracking the glass. Oh, okay. Because it was just like really sad. It got me today. I don't know what I'm tired. I have, you know, we talked about this before we went live, yeah not feeling good.
Speaker: So neither are you.
Speaker: We're both not doing well, people. No, we are not.
Speaker: I will count that one as a jump scare. I'll do that. Okay. Okay. But I do agree that last scene with Riley being tackled, that's definitely a jump scare.
Speaker: Especially with the speed that it just moves across the room and it's crazy. Yeah. Do you think, I don't know if this is one of my official questions yet because we haven't gotten there yet, but I've got it on my mind now. Do you think that but he's like the origin being right?
Speaker: And so now he's got Father Pruitt is like his little underling or whatever. Do you think? And so, okay, later on, spoiler alert, here it is spoiler alert, later on, when he's dead, and then all of the the effects are gone.
Speaker: Right. So we know there's like influence from him when he's alive. Do you think that Father Pruitt is being influenced what he wants him to do any amount?
Speaker: um Maybe. i honestly can't remember too much of the ending of this show to effectively make a case either way.
Speaker: Well, the character there's there's a couple characters that survive
Speaker: and we know the moment that the angel is dead because the effects are gone. Mm-hmm. So my thought is that while he's got himself in part of like, you know, because Father Pruitt's like change is his, is he in, does he have like, how much influence, how much influence does Angel have over people who have consumed this?
Speaker: I don't know if,
Speaker: he is under much influence because when he was attacked and like in the caves when he was old um I think at that point the angel wasn't trying to turn him it was just hungry but he saw that
Speaker: he was like ah praying or something and um in the the narration he was like this is an angel i found an angel and already like seeing it as such so i don't know if there's much control now that would be like the um
Speaker: that would be like the conscious mind rationalizing his behavior. But what that's good if Angel wanted him to take him with him?
Speaker: That's a good point. And was influencing him, even subconsciously, to bring him along? I'll have to think about that later on.
Speaker: We'll revisit this question, I think, probably the last episode when it's more relevant, I think. Which I didn't realize that this show is kind of shorter and only has seven episodes.
Speaker: Yeah. He's got three more after this. Yeah.
Speaker: That's all. Yeah. Well, some of the themes that I have for this specific episode um is lamentation, obviously, because that's what it's titled, but more specifically, just grief.
Speaker: um and we We see a lot of sorrow and mourning in this episode. It's centered really mostly around Erin's loss of her child.
Speaker: because that was, that that child saved her life. She was so excited to have this baby. She was going to do everything that her mother didn't. And you could, you, you could just tell that she was going to be a good mother and take care of that baby.
Speaker: And that's something that she wanted to do. Like she was really ready for it. And
Speaker: just that moment where she asks the doctor, she's like, where's my baby was just, Oh, I can't imagine. like and and just not having an answer for it either because then she goes to the mainland and she talks to the doctor there to get a second opinion. And the doctor's like, there's no evidence of you being pregnant and we want to add you to our psych ward. It's just, it's devastating. and I can't imagine what going through that would be like.
Speaker: Yeah. Being told that you're something that you have been experiencing Didn't happen. Yeah.
Speaker: So because it would, there would be evidence you would, sadly, it would, it would, you'd have to deliver at that far along gestationally, you'd have to deliver that baby.
Speaker: um So for it to just be like, completely gone, that doesn't happen.
Speaker: And even if it did, you would have, like the doctor said, those hormone levels. and So, yeah, id I honestly, the doctor didn't really do anything wrong because on her side, there is no evidence. And she's right. It doesn't just happen like that. It's impossible. And so offering psychiatric help was kind of the appropriate next step for her, sadly for Erin.
Speaker: because she knows what she went through, but it had to have been heartbreaking to be told, didn't even exist this thing, this baby that you're so excited for just wasn't ever.
Speaker: so it was not really sad for Aaron. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Um, some other themes that I sort of were able to pick out this episode was like addiction and withdrawal. Um, because we see that really mainly with, with, with Pruitt, Father Pruitt and him, just the whole episode looking horrible, feeling horrible, um not being able to function properly.
Speaker: And obviously he's craving blood and needs needs to drink it, but it can also be applied to addiction to like alcohol or any sort of other addictive substances and going through that withdrawal process and the the feeling of I need this right now, although otherwise going to die kind of thing.
Speaker: Oh, that's interesting. That's a good correlation. Yeah. Yeah. That's just something that just something I, it just felt so, yeah it was like you could almost feel it.
Speaker: and And all on those scenes where he's just like, it's, it's
Speaker: pounding and he's just he feels terrible and he's like doubling over
Speaker: and then just the way that he completely disregards Joe when he's dying and just goes straight for the blood is just shows me how addicted addicted in quotation marks he kind of is and how much it's ah already sort of taking over his life And I also thought it was kind of a ah dark play on recovery.
Speaker: it's It's kind of cruel because Joe chose the the right path that we always think. He chose not to drink. He's he's turning away from that and he doesn't need anymore.
Speaker: And he goes to celebrate and tell that and to revel in, or not revel, but sort of
Speaker: get ah get some so like emotional support and that ends up
Speaker: that makes him end up being dead because of that so it's just kind of a cruel twist of fate really terrifying his experience yeah because it didn't happen fast it was very slow and he was like creeped out too he's like okay totally kind I kind want to leave now Yeah, that buildup was really scary. And then he was alive and awake for most of it until we don't see like when he dies, but
Speaker: yeah yeah, scary.
Speaker: the The final thing I want to talk about in terms of themes is ah connection and compassion. him And how that sometimes can be like a ah so a source of religion.
Speaker: um I say that very broadly, but we see that that's just that pure connection between Riley and Aaron, where they are just grieving and lamenting together.
Speaker: And how it ends up just bringing them closer together to each other and in a very intimate way, like a very personal way. Um, and it helps them get through it.
Speaker: Um, Oh, there was a, there was a great monologue in there by someone, um, but like take my sorrow or take my grief or something.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: feel like in that scene that's not what was happening their sorrow isn't being taken at all and all it but their burdens being lightened because it's being shared across both of them and it's having that comfort having that relationship with someone to be able to grieve together you know yeah
Speaker: I like how they were both able to share what they thought
Speaker: what happens after you die. it's two completely different thoughts, i trains of thought. And they don't argue with each other. They don't scream at each other and say, you're wrong, you're wrong. like I can't be friends with you or be nice to you because you think differently than I do. and but they're able to find peace and love through both of through their experiences.
Speaker: So I don't know if you have anything you wanted to add about that conversation specifically either. That's probably
Speaker: my favorite part of the whole show. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: um philosophically i think they're both correct and the whole time she was talking about her daughter just oh I don't want to cry because I will cry her daughter just being asleep all the time and she gets to wake up oh my gosh She gets to wake up in heaven and she just knows nothing but love.
Speaker: I was sobbing, like even knowing what she was going to say, like when I was watching it with Corey. Just I just just let the tears flow like the whole time. I was like, I'm not even going to try not to cry because I can't I can't not cry.
Speaker: he just sobbed that a whole time during her monologue.
Speaker: It was just really beautiful. um And you'll see moving forward how they each take the other's perspective
Speaker: in a couple of crucial moments that happened later. And it's so smart and touching and brilliant how all of that was crafted.
Speaker: It's just, you know, one of the many reasons why this is
Speaker: one of the best shows ever made. um
Speaker: Ever. I think it really is. I didn't even, and the themes you were talking about, like just the whole show talks about addiction, abuse,
Speaker: recovery, Hope and love and it's all intertwined in this like gothic horror.
Speaker: But it doesn't like the horror doesn't take away from the beauty and the beauty doesn't take away from the horror. It all just blends kind of seamlessly together.
Speaker: And it's because of the horror and the its elements. It's got a lot to say about faith, the established church, um and all that kind of stuff, and parasitic relationships and all that.
Speaker: Yeah. And with the ah highly religious overtones, it's not even taking a stance on on religion being good or bad.
Speaker: just is the events that happen are, you know, pretty objectively bad, but it's not because of religion. It's not because of the atheist. It's just, these are the, these are, well, I have a question about this later, but these are the events that happen and like the fallout from it. So, yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: to kind of further out about like grief and, and, and and sharing in it and all that. I love this, the the scene with his, with Riley and his dad on the boat and his dad sits him down and he's like, I had a lot of resentment and I, I had that in my heart before all of it. And it,
Speaker: it just kind of stayed there and he's, he's got a great monologue and I'm not going to try to repeat it, but he ends that all by saying, I love you, son.
Speaker: And he's sharing in his grief and his sorrow about the way that events have unfolded and, and how he personally has, has acted and he, he's taking on the, the burden, like he did something wrong because of,
Speaker: of Aaron's or Riley's mistake, um which has a lot to say about sort of Jesus taking upon our sins, you know, again, great religious undertones.
Speaker: um But he just wraps it up by saying, I love you. And I know it's hard for me to show it when you're here, but I love you. um And I just, I,
Speaker: that scene because they're on a boat and the water combined with riley tail telling aaron i have this nightmare when where i'm ah on a boat all alone in the middle of the ocean and i see the sunrise and nothing further than that which great foreshadowing by the way to him being in a boat with aaron in his dream and not being alone anymore i It just that speaks.
Speaker: its It's got a lot to say. I love i live every second of it. Yeah. um
Speaker: One thing I want to mention before we can move on to questions is
Speaker: we're seeing a lot of shifting of themes of overall themes in the season. ah One of them specifically is faith and doubt is kind of transforming into faith versus fanaticism.
Speaker: yes. o Yes. it And fanaticism is emerging. Bev Keen is quick to hide things um and explain it all the way on sort of kind of faith, blind faith.
Speaker: And, oh because this was done for you, you need to repay it um for the the mayor and his daughter. ah that And that whole kind of tie-ry that she goes on is, there's you can unpack a lot in that conversation as well, where she just kind of berates him into into obedience.
Speaker: But now that's kind of shifting. it's what She uses. she She uses scripture and gospel for her own devices.
Speaker: Right. And that's what it actually means to take God's name in vain, to take his gospel, his purpose, his scripture, and use it for your own for purposes.
Speaker: That's scary. That's a big one. Yeah. And using that to to berate and belittle and manipulate them into doing what she wants them to do for father Pruitt.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Like you said, like it, it, it's saying the show is saying this isn't the fault of the church. You're going to find these people everywhere kind of thing.
Speaker: Yep. It's, it's the people. Yeah. So yeah.
Speaker: That's all I had. And because I was not feeling great today, I did not write down any questions to ask you. That's okay. It was my turn.
Speaker: Okay, perfect. It works out great. It worked out. It totally worked out. So to start, lamentations is the dictionary explanation is it's the passionate expression of grief or sorrow also weeping.
Speaker: um It can also come in the form of prayer and song, but it's how you express sorrow, grief, pain. Okay. Keeping that in mind, the name of this episode being Lamentations, how does that manifest or encompass in the events that happen throughout the whole episode?
Speaker: Um, I'm going to start with another Paul. Okay. Just because he's the first character that popped up in my, in my mind for no reason. Um,
Speaker: but I mean, we see him struggling because he's, he just, he needs blood or whatever. i and you I think you could easily say that's maybe what maybe what he's grieving. He's,
Speaker: that he's become like this. He also says he doesn't feel sorry for what he did though. think he's sad that Joe's... That's what I was going to mention.
Speaker: Sorry. Yeah. I think he said that Joe's dead, but he's not sorry for his behavior. He's like... And is he sorry that he's not sorry?
Speaker: does Yeah. I don't know. That's a great point. We don't know. We don't know if he is or not. I mean, I think...
Speaker: because of later episodes that I remember he will. And if, yeah, I don't know if he does right now, but I i know he definitely will.
Speaker: He said in answer to um Bev's question that he did not feel bad. Yeah. Which is interesting, and which is why I think he is another, it's another little clue that maybe Angel has more influence over him than we think.
Speaker: That's true. That's a good point.
Speaker: I think I wouldn't be over with that, with that idea. I'm going to get you.
Speaker: It really manifests a lot, I think a little bit in the later episodes, but I kind of want it on our minds moving forward. I, yeah, I think we see Riley's mom.
Speaker: it's it starts to show with her a little bit because she actually mentions what he did with some help from him i think it was a very short scene we didn't get much of her this episode but i really liked that scene though yeah she she's definitely grieving or lamenting his mistake and it just shows you how much but
Speaker: a mistake can hurt other people yeah not just yourself and clearly riley's
Speaker: grief and um he's he's he's very it almost seems like he hates himself for what he did and he might but even though he hasn't said it but um
Speaker: Just that he killed someone and you can see that every time he mentions it. It broke my heart when he was talking with with Aaron. That moment when he's talking with Aaron, he is probably the first time that we see him show sorrow and regret.
Speaker: I mean, we see that. We know that he regrets it based on her manifestation and like haunts him every time he tries to go to sleep. And the only time, did you notice? Oh my gosh, the only time she didn't show up Was at Aaron's house.
Speaker: Sorry, this is live reaction.
Speaker: But in that conversation they had, ah he says he he says, we see his emotion and the deep regret and the deep sorrow for what he did.
Speaker: I think that's the only time we ever really see that in him. The other times he's just got it on the inside, you know?
Speaker: And he even says to his mom and that other scene, he's like, what I did. And she goes, yeah, what you did. Cause she kept saying what happened. And he's like, no, it's what I did mom.
Speaker: Also, i have, sorry. I have a teenage boy. And like when she was talking about things that Riley said when he was little, like it's such a i don't know. It's so bittersweet.
Speaker: You remember your tiny little boy. it was just your little toddler buddy. then they grow up. And we become buttheads.
Speaker: As they should.
Speaker: But we always hold like the little, kid version of them in our hearts you know sometimes with each of my kids I'm like I miss toddler version of you you know and I'm glad to see them grow it's a privilege and an honor to see that but it is it's also something that makes me kind of sad you know they're never going to be tiny little baby boy sorry I'm sorry sorry
Speaker: I just really connected with with his mom in that moment. i was like, yeah. and it it's It's a perfect example of the episode in woods what it's trying to get across.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I think it comes to a pinnacle with, with Aaron and what she's going through, which she's, she lost a child and she has no explanation for it. She has no closure for it, which makes it 10 times worse.
Speaker: gra And there, there's no resolution to this, at least in this episode. And I know for the series, there's no resolution to it.
Speaker: And I, The show is saying, hey, not everything gets solved. Not everything gets fixed. And sometimes you just have to deal with the grief. You have to deal with the pain and the sorrow.
Speaker: And you just have to move on and find comfort in community, find comfort in each other and in relationships and have someone to ease the burden. And you just, you've got to deal with it.
Speaker: That's so true.
Speaker: I hope that was a suitable answer for your question. It was. um I did make like a little ah little list. um I mentioned on here Riley's dad was apologizing for his resentments and feelings of failure as a parent.
Speaker: Because when your kid messes up that big, he was saying, you have to think that you did something wrong in raising them. you know And then um we can see father Pruitt
Speaker: I think he was sorry in the very end for what was happening to Riley. I think he was, I think he was really sorry about it. Um, and yeah, I already mentioned Riley showing sorrow for the accident and what he did.
Speaker: Okay. Next. Conversely, conversely, what are some examples of tension in this episode? Oh, I immediately think of...
Speaker: um Joe Colley walking into Pruitt's house and unknowingly right into the lion's den and when he catches Father Pruitt downing the communion and bottle which he thinks is is wine so he's like hey can't I can't say I judge you oh I've been there a few times myself and the second that he looks at the old newspaper clipping he's like you could be his his son it it gets really really tense because then weird it the vibes are weird and joe is like right now i gotta get out of here man and it's just the tension builds and you have that um the like chord strikes and and the music yeah
Speaker: And it gets like really awkward when Father Paul's hugging him and he's trying to get away. Yeah. That just made it so much more realistic. It really puts it into the real world in those like moments when it just feels too real.
Speaker: What about you? um There was a scene with the sheriff and his son. When his son is saying, I'm going to go to mass. He's like, I'm not going to take communion, dad.
Speaker: And he's like, I'm okay with you looking for God. But like sheriff feels like something is off. And he subconsciously or whatever later, it's very conscious, but subconsciously he knows there's something wrong with this and he doesn't want his kid anywhere near it. Not that it's church, but because there's something wrong about the whole situation. He, his, his, his dad, you know, antennas going up.
Speaker: Um, I put Joe and the alcohol in the store. That's funny.
Speaker: And then those folks who were part of that little inner circle who saw Father Pruitt come back to life who then have to cover up Joe's death. Yeah, that was very tense because when Bev's yelling at and me like, why do I feel like she could kill one of them right now and she would be okay with it?
Speaker: and She would just find a scripture to make it feel better. Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker: She quoted like so many scriptures. I was like, really? Okay. So lamentations, because it also means grief. What are some um examples of grief in this episode? We've already talked about Aaron, but what about some other little maybe missed examples of grief?
Speaker: Maybe a subtle one is
Speaker: Sarah's mom and father Pruitt and that little scene that they did when he he's bringing her mass and you just see that. um um It's a reconnection, but I feel like there's a underlying tone of grief. They're really, there's a lot of under time. Yeah.
Speaker: Last time. Yeah. And regrets. Yeah. Yep.
Speaker: At this point, it's pretty clear what's been happening. But
Speaker: if you like after you find out everything that it explains to you finally in the last episodes, when you watch it again, they give you all the info. They just give it right to you. But you don't you don't know that you've been given it.
Speaker: Yeah. So sometimes when we're, we've been watching the show, cause we just finished episode seven um on Sunday or Monday, probably Sunday. But before that, when we were talking about He and I were talking about like, how is it that Father Paul dies?
Speaker: Right. And I just like explained it to him. He's like, why are you telling me this? And I'm like, because they never say it. You have to figure it out for yourself. I'm not giving you a spoiler. It's already happened.
Speaker: They don't revisit it and explain it. It's for you to find and figure out, which is also another reason why the show is so good. It doesn't dumb things down for you.
Speaker: It lets see you. No. Yeah. Yeah. ah Trust its audience. Yes. Trusting the audience. I appreciate it. Okay. Any other examples of grief? Are we ready to move on?
Speaker: ah It's okay if we do. It will be very brief, but you mentioned the the scene with the sheriff and his kid, and there's a little bit of grief there where he's, you said the quote, um I don't have a problem with you finding God, but we found him already. And that he's almost pleading and he's like, don't go, please don't do this kind of thing.
Speaker: Right. And you can tell in his demeanor and I mean, hats off to the actor. He's just sad all the time. He's just so sad and he's just always grieving the loss of his wife.
Speaker: And yeah I bet when he looks at his son, you know, in that world, he looks at his son, he sees his wife, his mother, you know.
Speaker: um
Speaker: So that's always that grief is always hanging around him.
Speaker: So do you think Joe had reached any sense of redemption or peace before he died?
Speaker: I was, I was going to say peace maybe.
Speaker: um But with,
Speaker: after thinking about it a little deeper, like, I don't know if you can ever be at peace with doing something that he did. I know that she ends up forgiving him.
Speaker: She went over to his house and forgave him. Right. But do you think he's maybe forgiven himself yet?
Speaker: Maybe he has, and and that comes in the form of him not drinking anymore, you know? Yeah.
Speaker: But, like, I feel like redemption for him is is it's going to be on a daily basis. He's going to have to continue making that choice every day, you know? Right. Right. I mean, I think story writing wise and character writing, I think is his arc was over and done. Like he sort of had his own redemption in, I guess, the audience's eyes. Like he stopped drinking. He was apologized to. And it seems like he's able to, things are looking up for him.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like maybe a
Speaker: if it was going to be on and on daily basis for him, redemption and and peace or something that he would have to work for.
Speaker: I don't think that's a good answer. That was a good answer because I think what made it so sad was because he was really just kind of getting started. on his journey towards that peace yeah you nailed it you're always able to put in words when I'm not able to ah stop that's enough because sometimes you say exactly the right thing when I'm not able to so
Speaker: Okay. A lot of the moments in this episode and in this whole show do feel a little bit too close to real life. So if in this episode, this was real life, are there any moments you think that maybe people would react differently to some of these events?
Speaker: If this were real life.
Speaker: Oh,
Speaker: I think 100% the mayor being coerced into hiding a body. Yeah, that was real easy for the mayor to like yeah all of a sudden be so complicit. that was so And he's the mayor. It's not like he's just... I don't know. He's he's the mayor.
Speaker: And so for...
Speaker: I know he felt indebted because now his daughter can walk. So he feels maybe he owes father Paul, whatever loyalty, but, uh, right. But you at the same time, getting rid of a body. they still Yeah. They still don't know what father Paul is or what's going on with him.
Speaker: And did they not see the blood around his mouth and you can connect the dots from there? No, they, they knew they did. So yeah, I think maybe wouldn't, my, my guess is maybe in the moment he would probably comply, but then I think he would be visiting the sheriff afterwards and been like, Hey, yeah.
Speaker: Like one of them would have had to feel guilty enough because there's no way. Yeah. What's the one character's name? The guy, the one with the beard. Scourge?
Speaker: Surge? I don't think it's Scourge. it's some Maybe I'm thinking Sturge. I was like, it's not a Scourge.
Speaker: but let's just Scourge scoge is, I think, a character from Ragnarok. I think that that's Carl Urban's character.
Speaker: But he is so sad. Like, he doesn't like what's going on. Mm-hmm. At all. But he just kind of does what Bev Keen wants. He becomes like her lapdog for the rest of the show.
Speaker: Yeah. Spoiler. I'm so sorry. They don't explore that well enough, in my opinion. Well, they show it. And it's up to us to explore it, I think.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. You'll you know be reminded when you watch some of the next episodes, especially six and seven. But um but I think one of them would have tattled.
Speaker: Yeah. Honestly. Was there anything else that you were thinking of? I don't think so. um Because i was I was thinking about Erin, but I was like, no, she reacted to how exactly someone would react.
Speaker: She did. and especially the doctor that she goes to see at the mainland. Like that would be i probably what would happen. ah You know, Riley walked all the way to her house after his AA meeting and it was bothering him so much that Well, he went home first and that's where he spoke with his mom. And he was saying, you know, Father Paul's a liar and there's something wrong.
Speaker: There's something going on. Like, be careful. And it was bothering him that much. But he got all the way to Aaron's house. And instead of going up to her door, he went all the way back to the community center. I think he would have saved that conversation for the morning.
Speaker: Maybe. But I guess it was really bothering him that much. So that's like a maybe. Yeah, it's a good maybe. Yeah. um Last one.
Speaker: So far, have you noticed any more change or revelations um in Father Pruitt's motives?
Speaker: this one was a, I think a huge deviation to what we've seen in the past, at least in the last couple of episodes. He, this one, it's ah very much, he's selfish. He's, it's a, it's a primal hunger that he's being driven by and like this and instinct to survive.
Speaker: And so that's taking over his whole being.
Speaker: So I don't think he's definitely not in the right headspace. um
Speaker: It's just like his body is sort of acting for him right now. Yeah. And I think there's... Oh, man. Can't talk about it now.
Speaker: We can talk about it later. But there was a moment when... Was it Joe... talking to Riley earlier on talking about father Pruitt, maybe not always having been chased.
Speaker: Yeah. I know that was in this episode, but I can't remember. Excuse me. i can't remember the scene where they were talking, but they definitely talked about it. He said he heard rumors of old father Pruitt, not always having been,
Speaker: i can't remember the phrasing he used, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and There's a lot of correlation coming up with the people and how they react to the events.
Speaker: And so if you start noticing their character now, they're they' the character of their person, right? Like not the character they're playing, but like who they are like ah how Bev behaves, knowing who she is, how Riley is behaves based on you know how he is. And so like just thinking about Father Pruitt's past,
Speaker: And what he's done in this episode, it all like, it all kind of matches up. Okay. So I will go into that more. I think when they bring it up in the last episode.
Speaker: So there you go. if That's all my questions. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. I think it's time for Corey's comments. Is it not?
Speaker: It is time for Corey's comments. Let's go. I'm ready for it. I love that you're the one that remembered it this time. I was thinking, I was like, I wonder would if he has anything to say about the angel leaping across the room at night.
Speaker: I don't remember. We're all about to find out together. Okay, we just stopped.
Speaker: We just finished episode of four. What are your thoughts? It was messed up.
Speaker: Yeah, it was messed up. Thank you.
Speaker: Amazing insight. Yes, yes. No, there were some twists and turns that I didn't expect. i didn't expect Riley.
Speaker: No, the fat guy. oh Joe. didn't expect Joe to die so soon. I honestly thought he would have, like, had a chance to develop his character more, but that didn't happen. That was really sad. It was. It was.
Speaker: It was creepy how that one lady, the creep lady, how she was able to just, like, change on a dime and accept the fact that the priest killed him. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And twist scripture into it to justify it Yes, she is the epitome of Satan. Embodiment? Embodiment of Satan, yes. Okay. And she is seriously evil, but she's very manipulative and people listen to her, which is crazy.
Speaker: um
Speaker: It was crazy how that lady's baby just disappears. Yeah. But that's, I guess, an effect of when you take that sacrament. Yeah, I didn't like that.
Speaker: I didn't like that either. ah thought that was very twisted. i was hoping for like a psycho crazy vampire busting out of her belly, you know, kind of like alien. That would have been great, but no didn't happen. That would have been worse.
Speaker: the main character, what's his name? Riley? Riley. he
Speaker: I still think this wasn't his. it just he doesn't fit right in this show. I don't know. His character just as I don't know, he seems fake.
Speaker: But I guess now he's a vampire all of a sudden. And
Speaker: that might work out for him. That might make more sense when he's a vampire.
Speaker: And I really,
Speaker: i'm looking forward to the more of the story. Like I have no idea where this is going to go. Isn't that great? Yeah. Yeah. The end. Thanks.
Speaker: Wow. We just made our entire audience yawn.
Speaker: I totally yawned.
Speaker: Well, that's Corey's comments. Those were fun. Vampire chest bursting.
Speaker: It's interesting insight when he was talking about how Riley just doesn't fit in with the island inhabitants. Like he's kind of out, like misplaced. But I think he's supposed to be feeling like that.
Speaker: i I didn't see it, but when he mentioned it, I was trying to think about it and and see with that perspective. and I was like, ah I can see it now. And he said it right before i thought about it. But yeah, I think it's supposed to be. I think it's intentional.
Speaker: Right. If you remember at the beginning, more of the beginning of the episode when his father was talking about how he didn't understand what he was doing out in the world with the startups and the technology or whatever. So Riley, you know, we understand that he had started building himself a life and pretty successful at that too. I think his the car that he wrecked in that accident was a nice car. So he was doing well for himself.
Speaker: And so he's kind of an outsider from his home community in that way.
Speaker: um And then being an ex-convict, he's an outsider in that regard also. But it's interesting because he says Aaron, he doesn't think he's ever going to leave. And he's kind of of made, like, come to that realization. Right. Which is interesting with And Aaron kind of was like, what are you talking about? Of course you're going to move on and leave and live your life.
Speaker: And he's like, I just have a feeling like I'm not. Yeah. And then there's that dream. So. Yeah. He never makes it past sunrise.
Speaker: and da That's the dream. We will, we will explore that more next time. episode five. Thank you all for joining us this time when we discuss the book of Lamentations of Midnight Mass. Next week we'll be talking about episode five.
Speaker: Thank you guys. Bye. Thank you. Bye.
