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Ep. 55 - The Podcast That Ruined My Career w/ Musician & Producer Aaron Sprinkle
175 Plays4 years ago
Our guest this week is musician, producer, and podcaster, Aaron Sprinkle! If you grew up listening to Christian rock, metal, or hip hop, chances are good that Aaron worked on some of your favorite albums. He was an important member of the Tooth & Nail Records team, and has production, engineering, and many other credits on albums from artists like Relient K, Anberlin, Emery, Demon Hunter, New Found Glory, Zao, and Project 86, just to name a few. He was also a member of Poor Old Lu and Fair, in addition to a huge catalog of solo releases. Aaron’s a guy who had an inside view of the Christian music industry for many years, and his own faith has shifted over time. We had a great time chatting and joking around with him, and we think you’re going to enjoy the conversation. Be sure to check out his music on your preferred streaming platform, his podcast “Moontraveling,” and follow him on Instagram at @aaronsprinkle!
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Transcript
Unique Movie Review Methods and Humor
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, in a family, when they do their movie reviews, they tell you exactly how many GD combos are in movies, because that's the worst. And I appreciate whoever sacrificed their own innocence to make that review. To keep a tally. Do you think that they had an Excel file up and ready to go where they could just tally them up?
00:00:20
Speaker
They just sit in the backseat with a dimmer all the way down on their laptop. Oh, and for sure, like after a point, like the person probably just was like, there's 50. No one's no one on the site is going to watch it. They're not going to count them. It's fine.
00:00:36
Speaker
Actually, there was four instances of nudity. I vividly remember. They're not even going to the movies. They're just purchasing the scripts online for 15 months so they can read. I read the script to spy kids too.
00:00:54
Speaker
I mean, I actually just did, I just did find word in on the PDF of the script. Dude, life hack. After life hack.
00:01:29
Speaker
Stuff the halls with missing money. Fa la la la la la la la. Crimes exposed by leaky plumbing. Fa la la la la la la. Okay. Pray this doesn't curtail donations. Fa la la la la la la la. Bribe your viewers with more salvation. I can't do it. I'm sorry, that was terrible.
00:01:52
Speaker
It's a choice. You sat and wrote that. I did, yeah. That's a whole morning.
Podcast Introduction and Joel Osteen's Church Mystery
00:02:00
Speaker
Welcome to Growing Up Christian. I'm Casey. I'm Sam. And it wasn't usually a musical podcast. We promise we're done with that. Casey promises. I claim no part of that. And if you liked it, I still don't because that's between you and Casey. Yeah, mention it in your two-star review on iTunes.
00:02:25
Speaker
So as the Carol alludes to, we got to talk about our boy Joel Osteen, my former boss Joel Osteen. Your former boss? Yeah, I did a telemarketing for him. Yeah, that's right. I mean, it was indirectly, but I called him boss. And you called him specifically on the phone a number of times until he filed that restraining order. Right. So this is a weird story.
00:02:53
Speaker
I it's actually it's don't forget to use the word allegedly a lot. Right, right. It's surprising, but like it seems pretty cut and dry to me like from the details. But basically, there was a loose toilet at the Lakewood Church. It's Lakewood, right?
00:03:11
Speaker
I think so. What year? What year is this? Is this a fresh? Oh, this has happened last week. Okay, I wasn't sure if the story came out or if it happened earlier and someone's just talking about it now. Well, how it got there happened in 2014, but this past week or something here, a guy called into a local radio show and he was talking about how there was this loose toilet at the Lakewood Church
00:03:38
Speaker
And he got called in, he's a plumber, so he got called in to make the repair, right? He said that they had some of the tile pulled off the wall and stuff like that by the time he got there. So this guy gets to working and pulls back some insulation.
00:03:53
Speaker
And there's like envelopes behind it. And there's like hundreds of envelopes stuffed back into the wall behind the insulation. And so that you know, he reported I do. Why did you say anything like just take just take it.
00:04:11
Speaker
Envelopes full of cash. It's not like finding a $20 bill in the checkout line at Walmart or something like that, where you're like, oh, somebody's going to miss this if I don't tell it. Just... Osteen's not going to miss it. He probably forgot it was there. He's like, I'll put this here for safekeeping. But later on, he just had so much money. It's like when you find a 20 in your coat pocket the next year, winter rolls by,
00:04:39
Speaker
The next winter rolls up and you're like, oh shit, I didn't know this was still in here and it feels like you just made 20 bucks. That's like his version of that.
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, okay. So that's part of what I've heard a lot of conjecture about. So the envelopes that were stuffed into the wall, there was hundreds of them. It's like $600,000 worth of cash checks. Holy shit. But therein lies the interesting part. So this is cash and checks, which sounds to me like apparently it went missing in 2014 from the safe that's in the church. Was he ever like a deacon?
00:05:15
Speaker
No, I mean, not really, I don't think. Wait, is that how you take the money? You count the money and shit? Yeah, deacons just get to do all the crappy administrative work within the church. And whenever there's a hard decision to be made, the deacons get to make it so the pastor doesn't have to take responsibility for it. I thought the elders all grouped together and made those decisions. It's kind of like deacons are representatives.
00:05:41
Speaker
elders or senators, pastors, the president. That's not the structure. I think our church didn't have elders. We just had deacons. Oh, really? Oh, man. Yeah. Talk about centralizing power into one figure. Yeah, that's what we're about. The Apostle Paul would have been very disciplined church. I'm going to have to someone should probably talk to them. Yeah, well.
00:06:03
Speaker
He sucks and he made up his own little alien abduction story and no one cares. But so like I remember when my dad was a deacon because he did it for a couple of different churches. He always ends up like anything my dad does, eventually someone is going to be like, hey, you think you can be in charge of this? Which is a burden.
00:06:27
Speaker
that's funny some people are just like that I mean obviously he started his own company and runs that well it's like some people who have that mindset that business mindset that's what honestly let's I mean to derail real quick
Church Growth and Financial Mysteries
00:06:40
Speaker
that's why church often becomes a problem because the people who can grow a church are the ones who are like
00:06:46
Speaker
business savvy, they have that mindset and it's like, that's why it always just turns into a business. Let's make smart decisions, financially savvy decisions for the sake of investing and growing. It just turns into that, building a nonprofit of some sorts as opposed to functioning the way that maybe it was intended. Yeah, I think everything in life functions the same way. It's like if it's not growing, it's dying.
00:07:14
Speaker
Yeah well and I guess particularly in a capitalist society that's the mindset that people like you can't just it's funny because I have a friend who once asked me about the church that I go to and asked like why oh it's not like your church hasn't really grown much it's like I don't know because we don't try to grow it like there are certain messages that grow churches and certain ones that don't there's certain areas and lines you don't cross if you want to
00:07:38
Speaker
grow your church. There's certain ways you structure things or set up your music if you want to grow. I mean, it's all written down in books. Just like every church planter knows the ins and outs of the right moves to make to grow a church. People have written it all down.
00:07:52
Speaker
It's like, so then you either choose to go down that path or you don't. And that still seems to come from, that does seem to come from that mindset of like, because it hasn't grown at all, it's essentially dying. Like a hipster church. Or you just don't have to, you can just, you can just show up and keep doing the same thing for a long time. And if everyone likes it and is cool with it, great. Like growing it actually would, what? Just probably line the pastor's pocket with more money, not really do much for anyone else.
00:08:20
Speaker
Well, I'm sure they see it as like, the more this grows, the more people were touching and impacting and all of that kind of stuff. When salvation is the end goal, you commercialize your religion, basically. That's the problem. That's what we actively hated about it after a while. We're all just products. We're all just like means to an end or some shit like that.
00:08:46
Speaker
Old Joe knows how to grow a church, for sure. Yeah, he sure fucking does. And it starts with great veneers. And a big ass smile. And a little bit of Botox. Well, so in 2014, money, all these envelopes and stuff go missing from this safe within the church. And like, oh, that's what I was saying. So like, I remember when I was a little kid, I like tagged along with my dad a couple of times.
00:09:13
Speaker
We went to a big Southern Baptist church, altar calls every Sunday. I've talked about this. But every Sunday they would take up a donation and stuff just like every other church. And all of the plates and stuff would go back to this back room and all of the deacons or ushers or whatever they were for that week would sit there and count the money and organize it and stuff like that. Into two piles. There was one for the church, one for me. One for the church, one for me.
00:09:43
Speaker
Right. Just like Bank of America, they're getting the cut. Yeah, perfect. But you know, it's a lot of different crap all thrown on the table and it all has to be sorted out, you know? And I'm thinking like the fact that there was checks in these envelopes. I mean, this is from 2014. What good is a check from 2014?
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think any good. What's the expiration date on a check? I feel like a lot of times it's 90 days. Oh, really? I don't know. I might be off. I've written like four checks in the past 10 years.
00:10:23
Speaker
But I know it has an expiration date so like whoever stole this intended on getting that money out of there before that time or else or they had a very short window of time to get the money out of the safe and somewhere
00:10:40
Speaker
They didn't have enough time to get it out of the building or maybe they couldn't do it, you know, quietly without drawing attention and suspicion and stuff. So I think a wall peeled back the insulation and repaired it real quick. I mean, how is that?
00:10:55
Speaker
Was there some work going on over there originally? Maybe, you know, maybe that was an addition at the time. So that would be interesting to find out is like what was going on with that section of the building at that time. Yeah. Let's pull some permits. Let's do some some gangster capitalism style investigative journalism here. I do want to point out that this is the exact plot of Blue Streak.
00:11:20
Speaker
With Martin Lawrence. Is it? I feel like there's some plot lines taken from the righteous gemstones from this, too, maybe that it's it is the plot. Like his life is the plot. Yeah, I know his that's true. Anything involving Osteen is going to have some righteous gemstone vibes.
00:11:39
Speaker
Yeah, if you haven't seen Blue Street with Martin Lawrence, it may be a little late for you. That seemed like the funniest movie ever when I was 10. Shout out to Jesse. I watched it at his house a whole bunch of times. The only place you watched movies that you weren't normally allowed to watch?
00:11:59
Speaker
But I think that this was somebody that had, I mean, it had to be somebody who had access to the safe, who could open it. And I'm sure there's a list of people that can do that, right?
00:12:10
Speaker
But whoever this was, they intended to go get that money out of those walls prior to, I mean, earlier than this, you know, and they just must not have had the window. Or maybe, you know, maybe it's one of those things that happens in churches, which I think we're gonna touch on in a minute, where like, they didn't necessarily have the proof to pin it on Brother Tom.
00:12:35
Speaker
But everybody kind of knew it had to be him. So maybe whoever they suspected of it lost access to those privileges afterwards.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's hard to imagine there aren't cameras set up throughout that bill. I mean, 2016, five years, it's not like, I mean, he's been obviously huge for our entire lives. I can't imagine that there aren't cameras. I need to look into the story more. I'm pulling some blueprints, pulling some building permits. That's for sure. I bet that's public access. We're going to find out what's going on here and I'm going to collect my reward.
00:13:12
Speaker
I think what doesn't make sense in terms of explaining this and what I've heard floated a lot is that this is somehow like Joel Osteen, like squirreling away packs of money as some sort of like a bug out plan or maybe just to siphon it off the church. Like 600 grand in cash and worthless checks now is not much money to Joel Osteen. No, that is what? How much he spent on his Bentley? I mean, come on. Right.
00:13:39
Speaker
I mean this is all of this stuff was taken from two days. It was a two-day period that all the checks are from apparently. So like, this is a weekend. That's wild dude. Yeah, I mean that's literally like, that's how much they're, I mean the amount that they're pulling in on a weekly basis, like every time they have an offering. Well, and how much of what they pull in on a weekly basis comes from the congregation in the building.
00:14:05
Speaker
It's all phones to, I know dude, I was a, I squeezed a lot of money out of, you know, poor senior citizens during my time as a, as an Osteen evangelist. God. So that was that, um, did you do outgoing calls or do you just take calls from people?
00:14:25
Speaker
I just took incoming calls. And I forget who the other guy that I did, I did like some overnight shifts where it wasn't Joel Osteen, it was another guy. Yes, I know which one you're talking about. And I can't remember the pastor either. It's another like big mega church ministry kind of thing. And I can't, you know, like in my brain, I want to say it was Kenneth Copeland, but I don't know that it was. Yeah, I don't think that's who it was. Is that the one that people would call in and say shit that was kind of scary sometimes?
00:14:55
Speaker
Basically, maybe you should call a suicide hotline and not some fucking undergraduate idiot who's taking calls at a service center. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And like.
00:15:06
Speaker
You know, the other people that I did incoming calls from, and this is a very short period of time. This was not a job that you stayed at for six months or a year. Like this was a, I need money. This place is hiring. I can, I can suck it up. I can do this. And then like three weeks later, you're like, I can't do this. I didn't do one of those ones. I might, I think I've already talked about it a bit, but I did, um, I worked for a place called civic development group. They ended up getting shut down because of the number of federal,
00:15:36
Speaker
laws they were violating. But, and I remember reading in the paper when they got shut down because the dude who started it, they talked about all of his assets that were seized and I saw a picture of his property. It was fucking wild. Like this guy made bank and it was like all raising money for like random like firefighter cop or like
00:15:57
Speaker
emergency transport services kind of service it, but it wasn't for those departments. It would be like the teddy bear drive that the officers do every year, they would outsource to civic development group. And then you would call people and they'd be like, how much of my money goes to it? And you're like, well, at least 10%. And then the rest goes to like civic development group. And that was one of those, like,
00:16:20
Speaker
I was giving blood, I was selling my blood plasma the day that someone was like, look man, you're probably here because you need a job. This is the going to be the number one worst job you'll ever have, but they will hire you the day you walk in the building.
00:16:32
Speaker
So if you need money, do it. He's like, I just quit today. It's terrible. I literally just gave myself the flu for $30. So yeah, I can do it. Whatever it is, I can do it. But that was one of those soul crushing like, you're like, yeah, I can do that. And most people last like two or three weeks before they just are ready to just die in that chair.
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, I've met some cool people a little bit that I worked there, but yeah, it was rough man. Like the other people that I took calls for besides Jill Osteen, they had two phone numbers. They had a.
00:17:05
Speaker
merchandising number and a prayer number, right? So if you wanted to talk to somebody, you call the prayer number and you would talk to someone that's like with the church or something. That was the last time you prayed publicly, right? Right. Joel's only got one number, or at least he did at the time. I don't know what it looks like now, but, uh, so, you know, we're, uh, I would think, I would think,
00:17:31
Speaker
But we're a group of like desperate college kids there to try to make a buck. They don't ask you if you're a Christian, like obviously that's not a part of the hiring process. And a lot of the people there weren't, they were just random kids that needed a job or whatever. So part of what you had to do for Joel's line when you're taking calls is like, you had to kind of go through the pageantry of, you know, Hey, well, uh,
00:17:57
Speaker
Do you have any prayer requests or something like that? And you could pray with them if you wanted, or you could say, I will pass this on to our prayer line, you know, and it got into the data bank or whatever. But you wait on hold for 15 minutes listening to elevator music before someone could speak the word of the Lord over you. Right.
00:18:17
Speaker
And the people that were calling in, it was a lot of desperate people and sad people. People who are lonely, stuck at home, it was a lot of that kind of things. Old ladies that got stuck in homes and their grandkids and children don't come to visit them anymore and they just want someone to talk to.
00:18:38
Speaker
You know, like most audiences relatives. They just keep you on the phone case. You're like, you're on for like 20 minutes every day with the same lady. She calls it 315 after she has her pudding cup. They're in that. They're in that home with Ben Stiller as the male matters. But
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah, these people would call in and they're sometimes crying. Sometimes they're just like, it's obvious that they're desperate and like 90% of the time it's like.
00:19:12
Speaker
I'm in over my head and my debt and I've got, you know, I'm not sure what's going to happen to my house and stuff. Cause I mean, this is like, this is 2008 into 2009. Oh yeah. It's the bad time. If you remember. And so there's a lot of those people calling in and like you could tell when he had preached a quote unquote sermon about like prosperity stuff.
00:19:36
Speaker
See you, funny bitch. Oh, yeah. They would use that language. They would be like, I want to I want to do it. Pastor Osteen said I want to rebuke the spirit of poverty and I want to welcome in the spirit of prosperity. And I would like to pledge one hundred bucks a month to Pastor Joel. It's like, oh, you just told me you can't pay your mortgage.
00:19:57
Speaker
I mean it's what are you gonna do i mean these are people that were gonna give that money to somebody this is like it's like playing the lottery it's like i'm throwing a hail mary and hoping maybe god. Tosses me some cash for my mortgage or maybe the bank loses my paperwork or something. It's like lower i mean your your potential for returns higher if you actually just play the lottery.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's a yeah, it was it was rough. I didn't last very long. But so yeah, I don't know. I think when you look at the amount of money coming in the lifestyle, we know that Osteen lives. Yeah, just everything about this case.
00:20:39
Speaker
When you look at it, it doesn't make sense that this is somehow like Joel's little, you know, hideaway stash that he, you know, he put a bunch of like faulty checks and 300 grand in cash. And that's peanuts to this guy. No, it's some some Robin Hood type that planned on keeping all the money for themselves. But yeah, that's all.
Josh Duggar's Conviction and Parenting Challenges
00:21:01
Speaker
They did give the plumber after the story game became public and stuff. They gave the plumber 20 grand for for reporting it.
00:21:09
Speaker
Really? Yeah. So there's that. I mean, that's kind of dope. It's, uh, I wouldn't complain about that. I mean, maybe you're like, look how much there's 600,000 there and you haven't had it for five years. You didn't even know you were missing it. Like what, but you're right. Why didn't he just go like take a few of those envelopes and be like, Hey, I just found $500,000 on the wall.
00:21:32
Speaker
Well, maybe he did. Maybe he found $800,000. Maybe he did, yeah. This is what got sent back to the lost and found apartment. Exactly. That's awesome. Good for him. Maybe there's more money in the walls. We should probably tear down the entire building to find out. I think that's the only option we have going forward.
00:21:52
Speaker
Every person who works at a mega church is just going to be like poking holes over in the stall. They're now on like maybe. They got like a spike and just like every like three feet, they just pound hole and peek through the wall and they're like, nope, move on. Got any coins in there? No, that's just the glory hole. We don't have to. No, not that one. You'll lose an eye.
00:22:20
Speaker
So not the only evangelical mogul in the news this week. No, I think it's worth a quick touch upon that Josh Duggar has been convicted on a lot of counts of child pornography. I mean, he's probably going away for close to 20 years, but I think it's what he's seen.
00:22:50
Speaker
dude, Josh has had, uh, an interesting run, right? Because obviously a number of years ago, he was the one that it came out that he had been sexually abusing his siblings for a while. And I don't really know the details of that. Uh, but I know what the family talked to their church, uh, the,
00:23:11
Speaker
Church kind of sat on that information for a few months before telling the cops. And I don't really know where it went from there. I know it was about a year after the Mr. Duggar. What's the dad's first name? Remember?
00:23:25
Speaker
Pete. Pete, whatever. Mr. Duggar. It was like a year later that he ended up telling the authorities. So I'm not sure how they tried to, I don't really remember how they tried to handle that. But then deals with all that shit. And then it was really funny when the Ashley Madison leak happened.
00:23:47
Speaker
His name was one of the ones that was on that list. This guy has had egg on his face so many times. He's such a dunce. Yeah. He was trying to have like a political career, wasn't he? Was he? Yeah. He was trying, he was getting into, where do they live? They live in Utah? Is it? I think so. Yeah. He was involved in like the Republican party in the state that they live in.
00:24:13
Speaker
I think like, and I'm not, Jim Bob is the dad's name, that's right. That is the perfect name for- For real? His name is Jim Bob? That's what? That's some straight out of the Walton, was it the Waltons? Was that that old TV show where everyone said goodnight to each other at the end? Goodnight Jim Bob. This is like a boring Western. Yeah.
00:24:33
Speaker
Yeah, I don't, I don't, I never watched the show that they had, but I went into like a YouTube poll one day where, oh, uh, Fundy Friday did an episode on the Duggers. And so I watched hers, which is really good. You should go watch it if you, if you're curious about all these, these people, but, um, I kind of went down a rabbit hole on him for like a few days.
00:24:56
Speaker
And I mean, when you look at his past behavior, when you listen to him talk, when you see some of the things that he did during his like political career and stuff, the guy is he's obviously a psychopath. But there's no human emotion in there. Like this is a person that uses people without any thought to, you know, the the ramifications of or, you know, the damage that he could do.
00:25:23
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, oh dude, apparently like, uh, what have you know, the allegations and the stuff that he dealt with had to do with basically assaulting his siblings. Apparently there were several other minors that accused him of touching them while they were sleeping or awake. Like he's been at this for a little bit. And do I think what's strange about this kind of stuff, right? Is it happened when he was a kid, he was a teenager of like 14, I think he was like 14, but are,
00:25:51
Speaker
I really hope this doesn't come off as trying to make any excuses because I absolutely would never go out of my way to do that. But we don't have a society that's set up to really deal with that, right? So like at 14 years old, when you report that to the police and you go, this is what's happening. Like there's something clearly broken about that kid. Maybe he was, had some sort of sexual abuse as a kid.
00:26:15
Speaker
from someone somewhere. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he's the originator of that cycle. But what is really fucked is the parents can't be like, this is what we're dealing with. There needs to be something. We only have legal ramifications for stuff like that. I don't really know what you do with that kind of a broken brain. You don't send them to a professional or specialist. I don't know what kind of help exists for that type of
00:26:40
Speaker
Well, there's some resources, you know, I don't know about where they live. I mean, maybe there, there isn't a doctor qualified to talk about that kind of thing. But yeah, there's, you know, there's counseling and therapy and all of that kind of stuff available. I think like, yeah, I mean, you have to acknowledge, like, what a horrible position you would be in to find something out like this about your kids. But
00:27:06
Speaker
What I wonder is like they waited so long to report it to the police. What made them report it to the police? Was it another instance? Did they think that the word was going to get out and they were trying to get ahead of it from a PR standpoint? It probably had to do with more accusations.
00:27:25
Speaker
Maybe they heard about it and hope, oh, this is bad, but maybe we'll just talk about it and then this stuff won't happen anymore. It's an intentional, it's like a willful act of
00:27:38
Speaker
You're just kind of in denial. I think like you're hoping that, Oh, this is something we'll talk about it. And then it just won't happen anymore. Like you're not admitting that if someone is doing that, that there's something, something very wrong. Uh, yeah, that doesn't, you don't just go. Okay. Okay. You're right. Uh, thanks for pointing out that that's wrong. I'm done now. I'm better.
00:28:00
Speaker
Like it's, I don't know that this is a great connection to make, but we'll see. It's like if when you're 13 years old and your parents are like, catch you jerking off and they go, hey, don't do that. You're like, okay, I won't. You're going to do it again as soon as you're, but that's healthy sexual behavior.
00:28:18
Speaker
right? You now you add in deviance, but like, so now you have a sexual deviance to you. But what you're going to do is say, Okay, and then you're going to do that again. Because for some reason, humans just, you know, your whatever your base sexual desires are, people are, they don't just turn those off. When they get to a point of deviance, and then say, they're better in the same way that you don't, when they're healthy, you don't just turn them off. So I, there's no healthy outlet for
00:28:49
Speaker
normal sexual impulses and stuff. People will find an unhealthy one. And I'm not convinced that that's, I think that's true with fetishism, like with certain fetishes and things like that, but I'm not convinced that like, uh,
00:29:04
Speaker
deviance in that way, like underage kids, that feels like it's just something different than like, oh, let me just then their bodies finding an unhealthy sexual outlet. Like I feel like there's got to be something else going on. Like if that was the case, get into like sex swings and gag balls and like whatever, find your shit. But I think I think it's like stuff feels different.
00:29:29
Speaker
It's the point at which like, like a person that doesn't have normal impulse control. And like I'm telling you, I honestly think that the guy is a psychopath, not just using that as like a slur or anything like that. Like I literally think just like from looking at his behavior and the way he talks and stuff like that, like, I don't think this guy has empathy for other people. I don't think, I think you're right. When you're that kind of person,
00:29:55
Speaker
you don't care what the consequences are for the people around you. There's not a thought that crosses your mind about, well, this is an awful thing to do to my sibling, or what is this going to do to them? You don't think those things, you just do what you want.
00:30:11
Speaker
I think, like, whether or not there was indicators that he was a sexual deviant, like, as a youngster, there was definitely indicators that he didn't have any empathy for his, you know, other people. I think there's a weird thing too.
00:30:30
Speaker
What? I feel like there was something else that had some other issues that had come up with him and his wife that she just kind of had to deal with because he was, you know, a piece of shit. And it's just like, I know I feel bad for her, too, right? She's stuck in like in this situation. She's stuck with him through. She doesn't believe in someone. So she's just going to hang like stay married to this guy like.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, there's something, there's definitely something wrong with him. He definitely deserves a sentence. And what's even crazier, something's coming up now with like his sister, Jaina, is she's been charged with, let's see, what was the charge? Had to do with harming or,
00:31:21
Speaker
charged with endangering a minor is what it was. So I don't know, maybe she was watching her neighbor's kids. Her neighbor's kids came over, I think, and her brother Josh was also visiting. She was like, hey, I'm just going to run to the store real quick. Josh, do you mind watching the kids for a few minutes? We're going to let Josh host the annual pizza and Lord of the Rings church lock-in or something.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah, we can do it at my house. I'm just gonna run out, pick up some more Mountain Dew. Josh, you got this, right? Perfect.
00:31:52
Speaker
Dude, what's, what's weird about these situations that doesn't make any sense from the outside. Like there's a lot of things that don't make any sense about it, but like, what is it about like, okay, this specific type of situation where you have, you got a bunch of kids. Okay. And you care about all your kids and you want what's right and best and stuff for all of them. Right. One of the kids does something heinous.
00:32:15
Speaker
That's a danger to the other children right why is it does why does it always look like from the outside that they they think more about how to like protect that kid from long term damage from this whole thing.
00:32:30
Speaker
than they do about protecting the other kids. Like, cause you know, that was part of the thought process is like, man, what if, if I help my son at 14 or 16 or whatever as like a pedophile or something, like what's it going to do to him long-term if word gets out and stuff like that, that played into the decision-making here, but yeah, your motivation first and foremost, be like, he made a choice. I have to protect my other kids from him first, you know, before anything else.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, I don't, I, you would think, I mean, as a parent, I'm not sure like how you would.
00:33:06
Speaker
handle that. Like if you're, if one of your kids ends up doing something awful, I get, I can see that distinct drive and desire to want to protect them because as a parent, you love your kid. You go, look, look, they're not a bad kid. That's what every parent will say. Talk to the parents whose kids shot up a school or some shit like that. Like they're like parents are, well, maybe not always. We actually didn't even touch on the most recent school show. Oh my God. We don't have time for that now, but
00:33:36
Speaker
And it's like, I feel like parents will, you'll always hear them protect, go to the defense of their kids. Everyone who's in jail, like for whatever crimes, it's like, look, he's not a bad kid. He got mixed up with the wrong crowd. He made a bad decision. So like, there's that very natural defense of your kids that I think will allow you to be blind at any point.
00:34:00
Speaker
And his mom maintained his innocence like to the end till he so fast. That's crazy yeah i can see it i can see it as a parent that you would like that that would be your biggest blind spot like you could you would throw anybody to the wolves.
00:34:17
Speaker
uh your own siblings if something happened it could be easier to let that like have it stay in court but like kids man it it's different i feel like that's that would loving parents parents who actually love their kids uh that would be their biggest blind spot so if one of my kids did something awful as a teenager and you're like like maybe they hurt somebody in school but you're like at home they're always great i mean but with josh there are probably some other signs i don't know like you said there seems to be a lack of empathy there
00:34:47
Speaker
But when it's when you do love your kids and then it the perpetration is that the right word with the whatever the act is against a sibling you're like that's when it gets that's when it gets so weird because it's like a lot of overlapping disproportionately applying that that blindness or that love because you do want to
00:35:07
Speaker
I don't know, but then what's the option? We have to kick this kid out and remove him from our house and put him in a place where he can hurt people. Yeah, literally. Nobody likes to say it. Nobody likes to say this, but sometimes you just have to you just have to throw a kid away. You put him in the trash. Just get rid of him. Like when I was a kid in Georgia, you know, sometimes people would get a pet and then realize that having a pet is a lot of work and responsibility and they would just let it go.
00:35:35
Speaker
You could just take it somewhere and let it go. Which is awful, but you know, sometimes you can't do that with a pedophile, I guess. It's irresponsible to let them go. I guess it's irresponsible to let your dog go. Maybe that's why we trashed that idea.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah, probably. But there is a play. I don't know, man. Maybe that's what we have to figure out as a society. When you find out someone's a pedophile, what do you do? Because you're not just going to be like, hey, could you stop? Perfect. Now we're in a good place. That's why they come up with all these like laws of like, you know, allowed to be in your kids. But like you have to set up societal parameters that don't let. But even repercussions for breaking those orders. Right. People do like that. Those don't make them stop. So it's like, is there a place that
00:36:20
Speaker
You can, I don't know, they need their own island. I don't know. That's what this brainstorming Elon Musk Mars colony is going to be. It's going to be a penal colony like Chronicles of Riddick. Yeah. Oh, my God.
Interview with Aaron Sprinkle
00:36:34
Speaker
All right. I feel like we've been going on for this forever. Aaron Sprinkle is our guest this week. He's awesome. It was so fun to talk to Aaron. Aaron is like a big time producer for tooth and nail or was a big time producer for tooth and nail. That's where he
00:36:47
Speaker
really started out. I mean, there wasn't a band in high school that I listened to that he didn't touch. Amberland, Emory, Project 86. Demon Hunter. Yeah. But he's worked with, yep, yep, yep. He's worked with, you know, newfound glory as later and some of their later music produced one of their albums like he's just
00:37:10
Speaker
He's been around the block when it comes to the music industry and he's also has his own solo project. Unfortunately, when this is coming out, they'll have just played. He'll have just played the first show he's played in a while, but I'm sure he'll have some other stuff coming up.
00:37:26
Speaker
It was such a fun conversation. It was kind of the first time he really kind of dove deep into some of his disbelief now in his deconstruction as someone who's been involved in the Christian music scene and seen a lot, but hasn't really gotten into the specifics of his personal story so much. So we had so much fun talking to him. He was someone you connected with instantly. So it was very casual conversation, a lot of joking around.
00:37:55
Speaker
those are the ones that I enjoy the best. So yeah, ton of fun. So enjoy our conversation with Aaron Sprinkle. But first, a word from our sponsor.
00:38:09
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:39:02
Speaker
Fantastic. I love it. Yeah. I got to say it's, uh, it must be amateur hour in here because you talked about it being a frosty 66 and I set my thermostat to a frosty 62. That's like a Siberian gulag. It's cold. Uh, you wake up in the morning and you don't want to get out of bed. Uh, but you know, you have to put a coffee going. And of course I'm drinking captain Cecil's.
00:39:25
Speaker
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00:39:43
Speaker
Because you don't have them, you just have windmills, the lighthouses of the Midwest. Yeah, we have like grain elevators. Not quite as scenic, but same thing. Yeah. The holidays are right around the corner and there's no better gift for the coffee lovers in your family than Captain Cecil's. And they're offering a special deal to our lovely listeners.
00:40:03
Speaker
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00:40:30
Speaker
Hey, everybody, we're back with our guest, Aaron Sprinkle. Aaron, thanks so much for joining us. Absolutely. It is a pleasure. Yeah, it's a pleasure for us. I'm super excited to talk to you. I mean, I don't think there is I don't think there's a band that I listened to in high school that you didn't touch. So it's going to be kind of it's going to be cool to hear your story. I know you've been involved in the music industry for quite some time, but we're also curious to learn a little bit about you and your life.
00:41:00
Speaker
Yeah, so I grew up on an island just right near Seattle, this little teeny island with just with fairies only, no bridges and it. Oh, sick. It was like fun for you. No, I really it was awesome. And, you know, it was it was Seattle was very accessible. Like you could take a boat and be there within 30 minutes. OK. Saddle a halibut. Yeah.
00:41:28
Speaker
But, you know, my parents were products of like the Jesus movement in the 70s. They were like hippies that got saved kind of right before I feel like I think they got married and then got, you know, became Christians and then had me pretty quickly within maybe a couple years or a year or something like that.
00:41:51
Speaker
I'm so fascinated by that time. Uh, not the derail already, but no, because there's so many people whose like parents got say like the Jesus movement was big, right? And a lot of people in their early twenties, will your parents like what in their early twenties when that hit for them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. My dad was like 20, I think. Yeah. Okay. It's stuck with so many people and
00:42:13
Speaker
I think what's wild about it is thinking about it was kind of a charismatic movement like pre charismatic movement maybe but you have you don't look around you now and seeing a lot of people in their 20s getting swept up in
00:42:27
Speaker
any sort of Christian culture, right? I've always been so curious as to why it hit the way that it did. I have yet to talk to anyone who knows enough about it, but I'm just throwing it out. I know what I know about it from them, and it definitely permeated the entire culture of the church that I grew up into was a byproduct of it as well. And I think
00:42:53
Speaker
it was sort of like this aftermath of the summer of love basically it was like um kind of like these you know wandering lost hippies that were tired of whatever they were doing and you know it was such an era of like spiritual seeking in general too like every it was like hip to be like
00:43:14
Speaker
trying to find your guru or your whatever you know and find your way and you know i mean i i personally think it was just like really really well organized cult.
00:43:32
Speaker
Like I mean that's that's my takeaway from it right now like I knew exactly what to say and how to get people you know Reeled in and I mean if you you know, I would I even five years ago I probably wouldn't have said this but you know looking back on it all now just from what I know I mean, it's just it's literally textbook cult behavior that was happening well and then and there was so many like splinter groups that formed out of that like oh yeah all of the like
00:44:01
Speaker
You just look at podcasts about cults. Like, the vast majority of them, if they took place in the US, they have some sort of tie to the Jesus movement. You know, it was like… Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 100%. People are like, Porgio is ready and looking for… They were just like so ready for like…
00:44:22
Speaker
It was like that they were enamored with like that whole concept of a guru. Yeah. And in some ways it was an Eastern religion thing and in some ways it just it permeated all of it. And so many of them. It's weird because it was like the opposite of fundamentalist Christianity today. And now like people took pieces of Christianity that fit
00:44:44
Speaker
Their narrative and and incorporated them in but kind of mixed in with like a Buddhist or or you know, Eastern religion sort of it was like a milkshake made of all of those things.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah, and one of the really important kind of messages of that era that continued on, and it's, I think, still really present today, but it's been technically kind of watered down, is like this isn't my parents' Jesus. This isn't my parents' religion. In fact, this isn't a religion. This is a relationship. This is about
00:45:18
Speaker
You know, this is sort of like it was like a almost like a rebellion against like legalism and like, you know, all that stuff. And, you know, I think what resonated with that generation because, you know, they definitely didn't want their parents brand of religion.
00:45:34
Speaker
You know, that was obviously not working. Yeah. Or just any, any like strict sort of fundamentalist kind of thing. But the thing is, is it, at least in my anecdotal experience, like it eventually sort of just always becomes the same thing. I mean, it might look a little bit different from the outside, but it eventually becomes the exact same thing. Yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're growing up on an Island. Your parents are.
00:46:04
Speaker
Fresh off the Jesus movement.
00:46:06
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, it was also because it was like kind of a hippie hub, that island, it was very like artistically focused, like, you know, you know, it's just a bunch of like, not just, but a lot of hippie kids and, you know, just the arts in general were very encouraged and like kind of finding your own path was very encouraged. I actually talked on labeled about this, too. It was like this really weird situation, like culturally, like not normal weird. Yeah.
00:46:35
Speaker
Was it like a small number of people on this island? Yeah, I think that- Midnight mass level? Not quite that small. Any vampires showing up in the middle of the night? That's a great show. Well, you know, I don't know. I think I feel like it was like maybe 4,000 people. Okay. Like my high school, my graduating class was 100 people. So like,
00:47:01
Speaker
And I probably went to kindergarten with like 60 of those 100 people. So it was like, you know, like a very tight, small community and actually born and raised. Yeah. And the funny thing is, I don't know if you know of the of the author Frank Peretti or the book This Present Darkness, but oh, yeah, he's very familiar.
00:47:22
Speaker
He's from Vashon, the island I knew him when I was a kid and the name of the island was Vashon and that's actually where he got the name Ashton. The books are actually kind of based on the island that I grew up on. Oh, no way. Yeah. The one that I remember the most is like The Oath. Do you remember that one?
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah, a weird little town and the mountains and so that was kind of like an insular community. Yeah sort of cut off from everybody else Yeah, like we went to church with him when I was a kid and like he would do like worship at church and stuff like that I don't remember I was pretty young I remember when like the the first book came out and my parents were really excited about it. Okay, I don't remember
00:48:05
Speaker
I enjoyed wet in the bed doing. That's weird. It's a different kind of wet. It was a soaked dream. Misunderstood. It's funny because like some of those things where, you know, you look at like talking about like parallel institutions.
00:48:30
Speaker
in our in our childhood version of Christianity, you know, like Christian music is one of them. Yeah. But like, even within those parallel institutions, like finding things where you're like, I don't know about this. And I remember reading like a couple of his books and being like, this might be just a little too much. This might be over the line.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. And then, uh, so, and then like, you know, when I, I graduated in 92, so the grunge Seattle thing was like in full swing, you know, like 91, 92. So that, you know, definitely, you know, there was an energy in the air.
00:49:11
Speaker
And we moved to Seattle like right when I graduated basically, actually a couple months before technically, but... Your family or did you take off? Yeah, my family, yeah. I lived with them for a little while and about another year. Well, and then more off and on, but that's another story.
00:49:30
Speaker
I got married when I was 19, in 1993, and my ex-wife was 17, which, you know, that was also, you know, that was happening. That was a thing that was happening in the church, you know? It was like, you know, like it was totally fine. Like nobody was like, oh, maybe that's not a good idea. They were like... Maybe wait a couple of years, see how you still feel. And I don't... I'm not trying to come off like...
00:49:58
Speaker
and with any disrespect towards my ex-wife, I need to be really clear about that. But yeah, so we, so okay, so this is I think pretty important. So my dad, my parents were young life leaders like really early on. And then when I was in like middle school,
00:50:19
Speaker
My dad, we were going to church in Seattle. We would commute over to go to a Calvary Chapel. I don't know if you're familiar with Calvary Chapel, but it's a West Coast thing that is literally a product of the Jesus movement. Actually, the Vineyard and Calvary Chapel came out of the same little group of people that started this little Jesus hippie church back in the day.
00:50:45
Speaker
And it was a big church. It was like I think there was like four thousand members of the church or something like that. And my eventually my dad became employed as a as the junior high youth pastor. Like when I was in junior high, like my dad was my youth pastor, like weird. Yeah. And but it was like my whole life, like the whole culture, like we were, you know, we were taking the boat into Seattle for church like two or three times a week. And
00:51:14
Speaker
The church was like incredibly music focused too. It was a cool church. You could dress however you wanted and they didn't think rock and roll was satanic or whatever. That was kind of one of their selling points.
00:51:32
Speaker
A lot of music came out of Calvary. Yep. Especially the one in Costa Mesa, California, the OG where Chuck Smith was, you know, the pastor and stuff. Yeah. They had like every Saturday night, they had a free like rock show and like a bunch of bands that I grew up listening to would play there. And like we actually went, we lived in Southern California for like a year and a half when I was a kid and we went to that church and we moved back to the island. But.
00:51:58
Speaker
but yeah and so that culture was like a huge part of my life my identity like my music kind of came up in that culture of that church and there was a venue at the church and like all these bands that like from that era like came out of that scene that even went on you know that are still I mean even Pedro the lion is technically came out he came out of that scene and like you know all these bands that like oh yeah mxpx and like
00:52:24
Speaker
all this stuff and it was the whole thing, my whole identity. And then when I started producing full time, it was in that space, it was in that sphere of the
00:52:39
Speaker
You know, we're we're Christians, but we're cool. And we do like we do like, you know, we're just we happen to be Christians in a rock band. You know, we're not a Christian rock. Yeah, like. And, you know, I'm sort of mocking that right now, but it was real like that was our that was like a real thing that was really important to us back then. And.
00:53:03
Speaker
You caught me at a good time in my life because about two years ago, if I would have been on this podcast, I would have just been super resentful and super pissy about everything. But I'm starting to have compassion for my past now. So yeah, it's funny on that stage. That's where we're all we're all settling in, I think. Right. Yeah. You're like, I recognize how and why things were the way they were. I guess can think I can look back and have a little bit of.
00:53:32
Speaker
compassion for that 17 year old me that just thought he was on top of the world when he was convincing people they needed to repent and become Christians because they were on a path to hell. I remember you. I know right now if I talked to that guy, I would not like him. Oh my God. Yes. I mean, the biggest hurdle for me for my own past is I literally almost can't even it's the cringiest thing in the world. But I was like,
00:54:12
Speaker
the shit that came out of my mouth. If I heard that now, I would be like, do you hear what you're saying right now? Right. Oh my God. That's amazing. A lot of hangups on not knowing how carbon 14 dating works. Oh yeah. Well, it was inaccurate. You could carbon date a live seal and it would tell you it was like thousands of years old.
00:54:22
Speaker
there was a moment where I was really into creation science and debating people.
00:54:33
Speaker
That's what I read. I still remember all the points too. I remember all of them. It's funny like we were at Target in Wichita the other day.
00:54:44
Speaker
and it was kind of late. It was like getting close to closing, so it was like 9.30, and we're walking through the sporting goods section, and this rubber ball just flies past us and smashes into a shelf and knocks a whole bunch of stuff off. I was just struck by this feeling like,
00:55:07
Speaker
It is just the continual thing where you hear people as they get older just lamenting the fact that kids these days are not like them. This ball hits the shelf and I was just thinking teenagers are the same. They're still making the same jokes that we were like 20 years ago. What if I got a bike and I rolled it? I have a 14-year-old and he'll like,
00:55:35
Speaker
tell me something funny that he thinks is funny and I'll be like, you realize that people have been saying that exact same thing since literally before I was born. And he was like, what? You always think everything's new when you're a kid. I know. Fart jokes. Yeah. I have a six year old and a four year old and my six year old, she's in kindergarten now and she's coming home saying stuff and I'm like,
00:56:00
Speaker
what dopey kid in school said that that now you're like I know that yeah watch the cartoon and heard that joke was the same thing that was like like that as the joke that was in all the cartoons we watched I'm like oh man they're still reusing these yeah I feel like writing cartoons possibly might not be I mean if you're not going for gold right yeah there's some good quality kids television out there I can attest to that as a parent there are ones that I
00:56:25
Speaker
will watch with my kids and ones that I will not. Yeah, there's ones that I will watch by myself. Shout out to Bluey. I'm going to shout out to Bluey right now for anyone who's listening with kids who are in kindergarten. But it's so crazy when you watch your kids watch TV and the things they laugh at and you're just like,
00:56:45
Speaker
That's the same shit that I thought. I remember thinking that was so funny, like telling someone an idiot or telling someone to shut up. You're just like, that's still funny. I had this thought the other day, I actually like wrote it down to talk about in like an intro, but to derail everything.
Humor and Teenage Antics
00:57:01
Speaker
What was like your go to favorite joke when you were like elementary school? Do you remember? Oh my God. I mean, gosh. Well, first of all, that was a really long time ago, but second of all,
00:57:21
Speaker
I mean, I actually, so my grandpa was like in the restaurant business. And my dad told me, this was something I love to tell friends, but my dad told me that when he was young and like a server, like I think he was an adult, but he was a server, he would go around to tables and if there was a kid at the table, he would say, eat every potato and pee on your plate. My great grandpa would say that.
00:57:52
Speaker
I want you to eat every bean and pee on your plate and just giggle forever.
00:58:00
Speaker
Sam, you got one? There's not anything specific. I know I would just repeat things that I heard. I wanted to be so bad. I was like desperately wanting to be the funny kid. Aaron, I was homeschooled, home churched. I wasn't getting out. Oh, yeah. I knew that. I've listened to your podcast before actually. Okay. Oh, nice. I'm glowing. Thank you.
00:58:28
Speaker
So I'm like, I was the epitome of shelter. Like in my friends group, I thought I was pretty fucking funny. And then, you know, you get to church and you're like, Oh my God, these kids are hilarious. There's like the kids who would dress funny and be, Oh my God. It was like, that was the worst wake up call I ever had. Cause I just felt sad for probably two years that I just couldn't cut it. I felt the same way. And I mean, I remember like being like, wait, what is street smarts? I've never even heard of that.
00:59:00
Speaker
There's no possible way that I have it if I don't even know what it is. So there was this movie that I saw when I was a kid, but it was an older movie. I think it was called The Court Justin.
00:59:18
Speaker
I don't know. It was just like this quirky movie. No, it was like a quirky comedy. And it probably doesn't hold up. I don't know that if I watched it today, I'd be like, that was good. There were like lines from there that I remember like reusing all the time. And I knew it was like old because you watched old stuff because it was wholesome. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
00:59:41
Speaker
And I just remember repeating jokes from that. I don't even remember specifically what they were, but you know that feeling you get when you're like, I'm going to sell this as my own, but I know I'm ripping. Oh yeah. Wait until this lands. I'm going to be holding port. It's like our olden days version of like a meme thief.
01:00:02
Speaker
You know, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I have a feeling whatever your joke was is something you're still using. So go ahead.
01:00:13
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah, no, I think this could still play. So there was a, this guy trying to hire somebody for his company, right? So he puts out a wanted ad and he's just looking for help. And he's a real joke. Oh, yeah. No, this, this is, this is the follow along. Open interviews. And sure enough, first guy walks into his office. He's a pirate.
01:00:43
Speaker
And he's like, Okay, I don't know how this is gonna work. So nice to meet you. Thank you for your interest in our position. Before we get started, I gotta ask you a couple of questions. I got a note like what happened to your leg? You got a peg leg? What happened to it?
01:01:03
Speaker
I was a deckhand on a on a Spanish galleon and a Cannonball took off my knee Wow, really? Okay. Okay. All right, that makes sense he goes What happened to your hand what how'd you get the hook and he's like he's like we were Sacking a city in the bikini of tolls and I got into a sword fight with a with a soldier and he cut my hand off He's like geez. Oh, okay. I
01:01:30
Speaker
All right, I can see how that might happen. He goes, hey, last question before we get into the interview. How'd you get the, what happened to your eye? How'd you get the patch? And he's like, I was standing on the deck and the sun was in my eyes. I looked up and a seagull took a dump right in my eye. And he's like, oh God, okay. Seagull poop causes blindness. And he's like, it doesn't fit your first day with a hook.
01:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, really got the shock value in you you were you were kind of a nerdy kid
01:02:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think by anyone's standards. I went to church with the same people. So I knew a whole like 30 people, you know, growing up through high school. So I don't know that you come out of that without being a nerdy kid. No, I love it. I mean, nerdy kids are my people. So it wasn't a dis.
01:02:37
Speaker
All right, back to you, Aaron. I feel like we're just getting all over the place. No, I love it. Chaos is my friend. So, something I was thinking about actually that was prompted by our rabbit hole that we just went down.
01:02:54
Speaker
was I had a weird kind of thing. When I talk to people and tell them I was a pastor's kid, they're like, oh, yeah. And then I'm like, well, it was a little different because it was this really music focused church and it was really important for them to be kind of cool and relevant, which is something we can all relate to as far as the landscape today as well. But
01:03:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. But looking back, I realized how not cool and relevant a lot of the stuff they thought was. But there was a lot that was too. But so, you know, I dressed really crazy and I got my ear pierced in like seventh grade or sixth grade or something, you know, and got called, you know, fag every day and stuff. And like by, you know, by my by people in my school.
01:03:42
Speaker
But yeah, that word used to get thrown around like all the time. That was even when I was young. I think you got probably a few years on us. Yeah. But, you know, I feel like up until high school was the first time it was like, we don't say that anymore. Yeah. No, that word stings. Yeah. It always stung. Yeah. And I, you know, I was like I was kind of gothy and like, you know, I
01:04:06
Speaker
I had this like very developed sense of personal expression, you know, and it was encouraged by my parents. I'm here and thought it was great. My parents didn't care if I got good grades. They wanted, you know, they just wanted me to like really like, you know, express myself and find my own path. So and but on the on the other side of it though, like I literally
01:04:28
Speaker
I'm not joking. I'm not exaggerating. I didn't cuss until I was probably over 18. I never said one cuss word. I didn't have alcohol until my 21st birthday. I didn't smoke. I realized after I graduated, a lot of my close friends were not believers.
01:04:56
Speaker
in school and you know they were they were all kind of sheltering me from this like the party lifestyle that they were living in like they wouldn't invite me but they also wouldn't talk about it around me so like I remember finding out like when I was 19 that like all all of my friends would get drunk on the weekends and go to parties and do all the stuff you see in movies and I'll be like
01:05:18
Speaker
Really? I didn't even know that was even happening. Like I was so interesting, completely oblivious to it. Like and I wasn't like not drinking because like, oh, it would be bad if I did. I'm sure that had something to do with it, but it just wasn't even on my radar. Like it wasn't even like in it wasn't like I was like resisting temptation. I just it wasn't there and wasn't there to tempt you. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, but I mean, I I've struggled with intense anxiety about like
01:05:48
Speaker
You know heaven and hell and the rapture and you know afterlife stuff since I was like really young like to where I couldn't I've been through gone through years of my life where I couldn't really sleep because of it and stuff like that.
01:06:02
Speaker
So you got through, you got at least a few of the cool parts of church life. Yeah, I mean, like, well, I mean, the Calvary Chapel doctrine, they always said it was like a non-denominational church, but they, I mean, they had a very, very specific doctrine that, you know, of course they were like, if you don't believe this, then you might not be in the Book of Life or whatever. But, you know, it was very, you know, tribulation focused, rapture focused. Yeah, yeah.
01:06:32
Speaker
You know, like, you know, we were like a pre-trib or post-trib, sorry, post-trib, you know, belief and like, or no, pre-trib, it was pre-trib, sorry. And- Yeah, pre-trib is like- There's a rapture and then the tribulation happens. Yes, that's what they believed. And you know, like very- Hard to keep them both straight. Yeah, I know. It's like- Pre-trib, post-trib. This is the millennial, the amillennial, the post-millennial. Yeah.
01:07:01
Speaker
Hit the deep cuts, man. Yeah. And, you know, under the guise of like, you know, we're so cool and we're like, you know, all about love and, you know, there's nothing you can do to earn your salvation and, you know, this real anti-legalism kind of message that came from the church.
01:07:21
Speaker
There was still the fundamental like building blocks of the entire faith was Except unless you say or do or think or believe or whatever this very specific thing About someone that lived 2,000 years ago. You're going to be perpetually and consciously tormented for eternity So like that is like I stay really really can fuck with a little kid's head I mean, I mean like
01:07:49
Speaker
because it didn't scan. I can look back now with hindsight and be like, OK, I believe this. This is what I believe. But then there was something deep in me that was like, that doesn't make any sense. Like the dissonance between these two things you're saying is so huge. And then the whole that kind of like sets the whole
01:08:11
Speaker
focus on this thing that may or may not possibly happen at some point later on in the future is actually the most important thing and how you feel or what you have or your needs that are met now today especially fleshly needs are really irrelevant because like this time is going to go by in a blink and then it's going to be eternity and you're going to be in one place or the other and there's no do overs and so it's just the most terrifying fucking thing you can tell a little kid ever like
01:08:40
Speaker
It blows my mind now to think about that. And I'm so glad that my two boys are not dealing with that. My oldest still has a little bit of trauma from it because he remembers. He's, you know, he's in his late 20s on how actually he's going to be 27 next month. But but yeah, so yeah, I kind of just went off there. But I just I'm trying to get I'm trying to give you a picture of sort of the like
01:09:06
Speaker
Yeah, it was. It's there. The stuff that's important was the same, but there was some kind of weird differences. Like when I meet people out here and since I moved to Tennessee, like totally different cultures in the church, even though that same kind of message was there too. But.
01:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird too, the way that people internalize messages differently. I mean, a lot of denominations can focus differently on different things. For sure. I think some of the more, I feel like some of the more charismatic movements definitely were pretty end times focused. Not that I wasn't, we were pretty reserved, but it was pretty, it was a lot of, I mean, the conversation was there a lot. It's weird too having, you know, I started my shift out of that evangelical world.
01:09:50
Speaker
before I had kids, but it wasn't, it really, I don't think it hit me how fucked up some of it was until like, until like my kids were the age where they were starting to hear it because my family, both like all of my families
01:10:07
Speaker
some siblings, but there are enough people in my family who are still very much a part of it that I haven't had conversations I should probably have about what I want them to say to my kids and don't because they know that's going to work. That's tough though, man. That is tough.
01:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, because it's like when you go, look, I really don't want you to talk to my kids about Christ's death and how it's their fault. Yeah. They go, really? What? You're not a Christian. Granted, they already think I really just I don't know. Things are interesting now that they're praying for your soul. Let's just be blunt about this for you. He does this for you because you're bad.
01:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, you were born that he had to do this. It's like a dog that shits on the carpet and you rub their face in it. But you did this. Yeah. Look what you did. Yeah. But I love you. Yeah. Yeah. But he loved it. So and you can't.
01:11:05
Speaker
truth in life. I know some of it has a lot to do with people who found that message when they were older. It's like, look, if you're 25 and you want to decide that it's wonderful that Christ died for your sins and had to in order for you to be eternally sealed in heaven, it just sounds bizarre when you say it when you don't think it's true anymore. But it's
01:11:28
Speaker
When you think of what that does to kids, because that's what it is. Like I mentioned, our parents find this stuff, their salvation experiences in the early 20s, and they're like, I believe that it's true, and it changed my life, and I feel like it gave me some structure. They have a million reasons for why they
01:11:52
Speaker
believe what they believe now. And whether you agree with them or not is a totally separate conversation. But when you bring in kids, it's like, yeah, you didn't have this message drilled into you as a six-year-old. Name a kid who didn't grow up this way, who grew up this way that doesn't remember saying their salvation prayer because they were taught to about hell and where they were going to go when they die. And there's not a lot.
01:12:18
Speaker
It's like, it doesn't, it's not a message for kids and it doesn't do well. And, and of course the idea of it being true is what makes it perpetuate. They're like, Oh, it's true. And if it's, if this is true, then I have it like this. I have no choice. Like what, you don't want your six year old to burn your health. Yeah. Oh my God. That, that is such a good point. And that was something that got more and more illuminated to me over the years that I had, I had to compartmentalize.
01:12:47
Speaker
because on one, over here, I was like, I believe that this is true, right? But over here, I'm like, but I don't, I kind of don't even care about it. Like it doesn't resonate with me. There's nothing in me that's like, oh, I just want to go to church and put my hands up in the air. Unless I was feeling really bad about myself or something. It was like, cathartic to do that.
01:13:13
Speaker
But that huge dissonance and for me like it really like spawned this like scenario where like duality just became the only way to survive like and the more that grew I was like.
01:13:29
Speaker
the more that like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde became so much different from each other. And then I was like feeling like I was doing this like weird dance of like, wait, who am I today? Oh, I'm doing children's worship, but I'm really hungover right now. And I think they can probably smell it on me. And like, you know, I definitely smell like cigarettes because I had one this morning or whatever. So like that that was like really damaging to me.
01:13:55
Speaker
because I didn't feel like I could be honest about any of that stuff because it was so like, you know, we actually don't even want to know about that stuff. We just definitely don't want to see it. And, you know, anyway, I'm kind of rambling again, but like that that dissonance and that thing of believing it like but not is really, really weird and hard to wrap your head around. I think that's like that's what's that's what's hard to really like express.
01:14:24
Speaker
Because the weight of like, knowing that because of you, God's perfect son had to die. So that you know, to make a way for you to be free of your awful self, because you're only bad, like anything that's born of you that you did on your own is bad. Yeah.
01:14:45
Speaker
And you're only good through crying. I think when you take that— Your body is bad. Your thoughts are bad. You know, sex is bad. Everything's bad. Well, yeah. And like where that really starts to— where you really start to understand like the ramifications of that mindset is when you pair it with the idea of like testimony.
01:15:05
Speaker
Like everything that you do has the potential to lead someone out of God's hand and into hell, you know, like, is it really a big deal of smoke? It's not that big deal of a deal to smoke, but you know, you just like the rest of the world and you know, maybe so and so who.
01:15:24
Speaker
You know, would have looked at you and seen that you were different and would have like decided like, I want to be like him. I want to find out more. I need to ask some questions. I'm going to go to church with him. Maybe he won't ever do that because you smoked a cigarette just like everybody else. You just like the world.
01:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, how entitled is that to you? I mean it's crazy to think like that I'm so important like that I could like you know accidentally say god damn it and like someone's gonna be tortured forever because of that.
01:16:02
Speaker
Oh yeah family day when they do their movie reviews they tell you exactly how many gd combos are in because that's the worst and i appreciate whoever like sacrifice their own innocence to make all those yeah to keep a tally she do you think that they had like an excel file like up and ready to go where they can just like tally about.
01:16:23
Speaker
They just sit in the backseat with a dimmer all the way down on their laptop. Oh, and for sure, like after a point, like the person probably just was like, there's 50. No one's no one on the site is going to watch it. They're not going to count them. It's fine.
01:16:38
Speaker
Actually, there was four instances of nudity. I vividly remember. They're not even going to the movies. They're just purchasing the scripts online for 15 months so they can read. I read the script to spy kids too.
01:16:56
Speaker
I mean, I actually just did, I just did find word in on the PDF of the script.
Societal Pressures and Media Influence
01:17:03
Speaker
But yes. Dude, life hack. After life hack.
01:17:12
Speaker
It is funny and you think about how many different parts of your life that mindset was used to control. Just think about the stupidest, most frivolous things and it sounds like it wasn't as big of a deal in your, but for us, clothing held this super significant place in who we were and stuff, especially for girls.
01:17:39
Speaker
You know, like if you were a girl when I was younger and you shop at Abercrombie, like even if you were buying long, loose-fitting polos, you're kind of flirting with disaster. Yeah, you're kind of a slut basically. Yeah, like do you really want to be associated with that? They have nipples in their catalog. Is that what you are? Is that what represents you?
01:18:03
Speaker
Well, and two, the culture of it's basically women's responsibility to make sure men don't stumble was definitely part of what I grew up into. That's a part that I still buy. Yeah.
01:18:22
Speaker
No, like that is like so fucked up. I mean, it's like insane. It's like it's so insulting to both of the genders involved in that scenario. Like, OK, this caveman over here isn't responsible for his thoughts and actions. So you've got to cover up, you know, so that he doesn't like it's it's crazy. So it's crazy like you can think back to being a kid and you're like, look,
01:18:50
Speaker
You were just horny anyway. I don't know if anyone watches the show Big Mouth, but it just captures adolescence in the most incredible way, especially this most recent season. And it's weird to look at it because you're like,
01:19:06
Speaker
This is such an like, this is it is so weird to watch a show built around kids in middle school with all of this. And then you're like, that is pretty accurate. Yeah, it's like, yeah. But you're like, middle school is more rated R than any part of my life now. Oh, yeah. Including the part that smokes weed and drinks too much. It's like sex education is another really good show. I don't know if you've watched that, but it's I haven't heard of it. So good.
01:19:34
Speaker
I've heard it's great. I haven't watched it. It is so good. And it's Jillian Anderson, who is like, you know, probably my number one life crush. It's Scully from the X-Files. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Not to get too in the weeds. She did a serial killer show on Netflix. It was dope.
01:19:54
Speaker
Yeah. Killing or something? No, no, no, no, it's called. Damn it. I watched it and I can't remember what it's called. It's really good. Yeah, it's like British. She does a really good British accent because she lived in England often like back and forth. England and the US growing up. So she did both accents perfectly. And I am I am I am a Gillian Anderson nerd. So that's why I just had that.
01:20:18
Speaker
Oh, my God.
Seattle Grunge Movement and Music Industry
01:20:19
Speaker
OK, Aaron, let's I want to jump back to your story a bit, because, you know, I we're never going to touch on most of it at this point, but that's fine because we're having a good time. But I ask a question real quick before we shut up. I'm sorry. I was just curious, like, I mean, to be in Seattle, like the hub for the grunge movement or whatever you want to call it.
01:20:46
Speaker
Did you participate in that? Was there any really significant moments for you in there related to that whole thing?
01:20:57
Speaker
Like I said before, the energy definitely trickled down into the whole music scene. Everything was just kind of alive. Everything seemed possible. I remember when I saw Nirvana on MTV for the first time, I called my girlfriend at the time and was like, you'll never believe what's happening right now.
01:21:17
Speaker
You know, these bands that we loved and were like our local bands were starting to pop off and like just it was crazy. And then, you know, like, you know, I would like I saw Chris Novoselic on the street, the bass player from Nirvana and like talk to him like, you know, just weird shit like that was like, you know, it was real. It was happening. And and, you know, but.
01:21:39
Speaker
We kind of were trying to we were also trying to distance ourselves from it a little bit too because we didn't want to like feel like we were trying to ride the coattails of like anyone else or not that we did, but anyone else or like, you know, like that we were trying to be like, you know, just associate something and jump on the bandwagon or whatever. Yeah.
01:22:01
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was definitely interesting. And, you know, like like almost everything in your life, like if only I could have appreciated it then the way I would now knowing, you know. But yeah, it was crazy. It's that grunge music is something that I wasn't. It didn't hit me. You know, I came in. I mean, I'm 33. So I hit me. I came in, obviously, to it late. You know, it's been played on the radio my entire life for the most part.
01:22:30
Speaker
Uh, even it's funny, like hearing you say like, Oh, the first time they were like, they were on empty that Nirvana was on MTV. It's like for me, you know, after you start getting into music, getting into your own kind of music and not just listening to the radio, watching MTV was like the video equivalent of radio at that. Right. For me, like they would.
01:22:51
Speaker
You know, you'd have the occasional like I feel like they would play sometimes like heavy music at night at a certain time or something like that. I forget it bangers ball. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's right. And I used to be like that felt like that's probably a similar feeling to me is what you're trying to describe with like totally. I was even in bands like Slipknot. I wasn't. They weren't for me. But when I would see Slipknot on MTV at eleven thirty at night, I was like, fuck, yeah, this is this is important to me. Look around and make sure no one's around. Yes.
01:23:22
Speaker
So I feel like that's like the only way I can relate to the experience you're describing. But I didn't even though I never cared about it, like I didn't it took me until later for me to realize that I how incredibly influential that that scene was and what that did to music for music for musicians. I mean, there was a band I listened to that wasn't like if it wasn't for Nirvana. I don't know if I would have ever even
01:23:50
Speaker
Absolutely. It's crazy. I can't do grunge. My dad stopped before grunge.
01:23:57
Speaker
He somewhere between like 80s like Radio Rock and Grunge, he switched to like Gather vocal bands. So we really missed out on that era. Yeah. Nothing greatest of choices, but no, but here we are. No comment. So all right. You moved to Seattle. You know, like it's obvious that you've been in like you mentioned, you know, being in the arts, being
01:24:25
Speaker
around music and having an influence in your life. How the heck did you get into production and find your way into tooth and nail? Because I'm guessing you got in early on before that was something that people would have been like, oh my God, about.
01:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, so I have always been kind of nerdy and, you know, I kind of figured out with the resources I had around sixth, seventh grade, I started recording music and yeah, with like really like hilarious, like.
01:25:00
Speaker
just Frankenstein set up you know like and you know and then but it was something like I said this I've said this before but it's just I can't not say it but it was something I couldn't not do like I was absolutely driven
01:25:16
Speaker
And it was the only thing like on my mind. It was it was what excited me. And it was it was, you know, I was good at it. It was easy for me. And but in the process, the whole the whole point, the whole reason I learned how to record music and even play guitar or sing or whatever was just to have the final product of the song. Like they were all the means to the end of of having this magical recorded thing that was like,
01:25:44
Speaker
could maybe make me feel the same way that other music made me feel, you know? And so by the time I was like 18, I had started recording. There was actually a studio in the church that was like really legit. It wasn't technically part of the church. The guy rented it from the church.
01:26:06
Speaker
But he we became friends and he was kind of a mentor and I had already started recording bands like the summer of The summer after I graduated from high school. I started recording bands in their friends bands. There was so much music happening So it's really a perfect storm kind of of you know things I was born with and luck, you know and and then my band I had a band in the 90s called poor old Lou and we
01:26:34
Speaker
We got signed when I was like 19 or something to a label in California, like a Christian, like alternative Christian label, which is how I met Brandon Evil. He worked there. Okay. Fresh out of college, basically.
01:26:50
Speaker
For people who don't know, Brandon Ebel is the tooth and nail. Yeah, he's the founder and owner of Tooth and Nail Records. And he was instrumental in getting my band signed. He was a fan. He was originally from the Portland area and would play us our indie releases on his college radio station and stuff. So it was this kind of perfect storm. And then I pretty quickly realized that people were actually paying me to record their songs. And being in a band was
01:27:20
Speaker
like we were we were losing money. I mean, it was it was definitely like, you know, a negative for sure. And and then I remember like right after Brandon and I had hung out in in California, my band was down doing something, a video shoot or something. And he told me about Tooth and Nail. Like he said he was starting to label. This is what it's called. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. I really respected him. He just had this sort of energy to him that was like,
01:27:49
Speaker
infectious and and then I was with my band was playing a show in Bremerton the headliner canceled the MXVX guys were there they came up to me I kind of knew him
01:28:03
Speaker
They came up to me and said, can we play? And I went and asked the promoter and they said, sure. And so they played and I was like, holy shit, this is insane. And so I like, I told them that night, I was like, I have a studio that I'm working at. I will record you for free. I'll do like three or four songs for free. And the only thing I ask in exchange is if I can give the recordings to my friend Brandon who's starting this label.
01:28:29
Speaker
And that was what happened. Like that was the, that was sort of the moment of what happened. And so he signed MX PX and hired me to do the record. I was 19 when I produced their first album. And, and then I did a, I started doing other records for him and, um,
01:28:48
Speaker
and then like we kind of we kind of like separated after that kind of like crazy moment like around 93 94 um and and i started just pouring myself into the local music scene and just recording tons of bands locally i never liked i never passed like
01:29:09
Speaker
high school. I didn't like Christian music. I always was trying so hard to find Christian bands that I liked. And there was a few for sure. I'm not like trying to broad brush my past and make it look how I wish it looked. But it's like, well, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to go ahead and throw my sentiments up there. Please. There was a feeling for me of it being it
01:29:30
Speaker
A lot of it felt forced. Like, oh my God. Like, I was one of the biggest buyers. You're nicer than I am. Like, I was full blown Christian. I wanted to witness to my friends all the time and I couldn't do Christian music. I couldn't do, you know, your kind of your praise and worshipy stuff. Not even that, but like the ones that tried to bridge on rock.
01:29:55
Speaker
You know, one of the bands that comes up a good bit is like your, your DC talks or your whatever. And I'm like, even then I was like, this feels too Christian for me. I couldn't, it never worked for me. And I don't know if I have a feeling you felt as well. Yeah, it wasn't authentic. And I just didn't get that juice that I got from the Cure or the bands I was into at the time. Like there was just something about it. Like it was just empty. It was hollow. And
01:30:23
Speaker
I don't know if you were I don't know if they had these when you guys were in youth group, but like they had these really funny like the the labels or maybe the Christian bookstores would like had like magazines and like they would have like that like targeted towards youth pastors.
01:30:39
Speaker
And they would have like whole sections where it would be like, if your church kids are fans of this band, then they'll like this band. And you're always like the most preposterous like comparisons, like so hilarious.
01:30:57
Speaker
It was like, why? Why can't they be fans of that band? Why do they need an alternate? That always perplexed me because I didn't feel like music was going to change my faith and it didn't. It never did. I mean, my faith changed, but it didn't have anything to do with music.
01:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, so I just the music the Christian music scene ever resonated with me and that's why tooth and nail was such a refuge it was like this hope this beacon of hope you know and.
01:31:29
Speaker
Yeah, it was like it felt like the most authentic that I'd ever heard. And, you know, it probably was because a lot of the guys making that music weren't Christians. But, you know, but, you know, eventually even that changed. Eventually, you know, in order to play the game, you've got to follow the rules, you know, and if you get big enough, you're going to you're going to end up following the rules. And there was some there was some of those
01:31:55
Speaker
rules that ended up getting kind of locked in. And I remember when I was doing that, when I came back to start working with Brandon on a more official basis in 2001, which that's when I had my like 12, almost 12 year run of just insanity with like, just awesome record after awesome record that I got to work on.
01:32:17
Speaker
uh you really did man it's incredible when i look at it's like the the bands that you worked at that's what i said at the beginning like i don't think because i was a when i was in high school like that was i mean that was a lot of them that was emory that was and berlin that was project 86 that was
01:32:34
Speaker
Like you were you were on all of that. I was. Yeah, I mean, it was crazy. I was on that a different spectrum, I guess, than you guys. Like Christian Rock was the edgy thing that I got to do. Yeah. You know, like it was it was music was always like viewed with suspicion by like for sure. Fundamentalists in the circle. I was. And it had like they they viewed it with almost like almost like having these hypnotic qualities.
01:33:02
Speaker
So it was always to be viewed as like a potential gateway for like bad thoughts or negativity or some of the nuts would be like, you know. Like a Ouija board basically. It's like a Ouija board. It's like that, yes. And so like, I knew like, I remember in like fourth or fifth grade, I got a DC talk. I got, oh man, Jesus freaks.
01:33:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I remember like listening to Jesus freak. I read multiple Jesus freaks. Wow. You're gonna nitpick me on the DC Talk fan here. I'm stepping on your mister. That's cool.
01:33:42
Speaker
But I remember listening to that and being like, wow, this, this is like it. This is what I've been like trying to find is like something like that. Like I want something like this. Yeah. And I think like for me and my buddies, we were all kind of in that boat. And Christian rock was like this outlet for us.
01:34:02
Speaker
to be like, man, this is something where we can like almost relate to normal kids, right? Yeah. And there was a lot of pushback in my church about that kind of stuff. It was always like, I don't know if you guys should be into this, like this is really on edge. And once in a while, like your mom had pull out the the backing in the CD and like read the lyrics and like, yeah, I remember my mom, I borrowed an Evan essence album from my buddy Jesse.
01:34:35
Speaker
Over the line. Over the line. Yeah, exactly. It's the one where she's on the front cover and she's really pale and she has black hair. And my mom like read a bunch of the lyrics and got really mad. Yeah, she was demon possessed on that cover, obviously.
01:34:51
Speaker
Yeah, I remember her not knowing what a tourniquet was, and she thought it was like a grawl. The thing that somebody chokes you with, she thought a tourniquet was like a way of killing somebody or killing yourself. She thought you were getting into autoerotic asphyxiation. Yeah, exactly. I had to give the album back to him, and I couldn't keep up, burned it, and I had to throw it away.
01:35:21
Speaker
like Christian Rock was like a way for us to kind of like get out from under our church a little bit and like, man, did you get the new pillar album? Oh my God. Yeah. Well, you know what, though, is you I really think and this is, you know, this is a complete speculation, but I think you were the primary demographic of all that whole scene. I mean, because I think so. I didn't grow up that way, but I knew
01:35:47
Speaker
Thousands of people that did and I that and and I talked to people and and I could see it in their eyes that they were like Oh, thank you praise Literally praise Jesus that you made music that I can actually stomach and I'm not embarrassed if my friends hear it in the background You know and that it's it's so weird to think about now, but I mean, yeah
01:36:10
Speaker
They were necessary. They were so necessary. That's why the Christian music industry exists, is because of that sentiment, like that. The only outlet. Yeah, like this is like our thing that we get. I mean, you know, and then you get, you know, then it grows even more from tribalism and kind of all that stuff, you know, which is, I mean, that's a whole thing in and of itself.
01:36:32
Speaker
Then you have to protect it. Then you have to be a staunch defender of those bands. Yeah. And they become your identity and like everything you and everything, every word and action they do, you know, you're hanging on that. I was looking at your your Wikipedia page and it's you worked with Demon Hunter a little bit, right? Yeah. So I think one of their one of their early albums
01:36:59
Speaker
I got X 2003, if you remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like sampler CD and it had.
01:37:07
Speaker
song on it. I can't remember what it was called. But I remember like getting x 2003. And I'm like listening to it. And it's the most ridiculous mix of bands. It's like everything. There was nothing on there that was related to anything any other song on the album. And then all of a sudden, like, you get through a like caveman's call or whatever. And there's this demon hunter song. And I remember like hearing it and being like, I think this is a little too much for me.
01:37:38
Speaker
I don't think Jesus likes this at all. This is the Frank Peretti of Christian Rock. Yes, absolutely. That was like, you know, tooth and nails business model was to be the Frank Peretti of Christian Rock. I mean, it was like,
01:37:56
Speaker
And I'm not saying that to dis, I love tooth and nail and I will never not, but you know, it was like, how far can we push this? And, you know, that those edges would expand every year a little bit too, as the scene changed and, you know, people changed and all that. Yeah.
01:38:12
Speaker
Tooth and Nail was the lifeblood for people. I mean, I know you said that a lot of people weren't even Christians as they were on it. I think that's super interesting. People, honestly, you probably get what? Most of that, you can probably get a lot of information on the labeled podcast where they dive into that pretty much every year. So anyone who's listening, if you, whatever band you loved on Tooth and Nail, there's probably an episode on the labeled podcast about it where you'll get a deep dive. It's definitely worth checking out. But if
01:38:42
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know what I would have done without it. Like that's how I got introduced to heavy music. That's, you know, or the gateway bands into heavy music. And then you find your solid States and then you're like,
01:38:53
Speaker
And through that is when I kind of realized there were bands outside. Like I always knew there are those heavy bands, but, you know, you can't gamble on listening and maybe getting into something you should, I don't know, whatever. There's all these reasons that you can't. And it's like you start with the ones on solid state and, you know, and honestly, I mean, let's be real, solid state fucking swept the metal core scene. Like they changed the game for that.
01:39:18
Speaker
Yeah, no, Tooth and Nail changed all of music. They did. They really did. It's incredible what they did. I mean, I don't... And you did, Aaron. Well... You're part of that. When I meet people now, especially because emo is so cool again right now, if I meet people that are not in the Christian music industry, aren't Christians, never listen to it, and I mention Tooth and Nail, they're like, oh, seriously? That's badass.
01:39:44
Speaker
Tooth and Nail is very respected now. There were times at the beginning where it was kind of poo-pooed by like snobby, you know, anti-religious people or whatever. But now it's like just, you know, especially in the metal world.
Faith Journey and Questioning Beliefs
01:40:03
Speaker
I mean, you know, a lot of the bands on solid state are like considered to be, you know, some of the best. Yeah.
01:40:11
Speaker
current metal bands in the world, you know, like we go to like Norway and tour like seriously, like it's crazy. Yeah. I mean, how many bands came out trying to sound exactly like August Burns Red after the scene? I mean, to me, they're one of the most like big deal when I was every local band was like an August Burns Red ripoff when I was in high school in college. It was like, I mean, look at Under Oh, it was like that was my identity for a while. Yeah. Yeah.
01:40:38
Speaker
Aaron, one of the things I want to get into is obviously you've spent so much time in the Christian music industry. There's so much that goes on. Maybe people are talking about on the backend, how they feel. One of the things that we learned growing up is that you have to find safe people to talk to about your questions. For sure.
01:41:00
Speaker
I don't know what it looked like when you mix a faith-based idea with music and you're doing it as a business. I guess one of the things I'm curious about is over a long period of time, you definitely are indicating that you've had faith shifts and that bands that you worked with, maybe by their second, third album, Warren Christians, or maybe even their first. Was that stuff that was talked about in it during the time that you
01:41:30
Speaker
we're working with all these bands. And then like, when did you get to a point where you were like, when did your face start shifting? And then when did you admit that your face started shifting or wherever it is now, maybe you started losing it, maybe it started shifting. I really would like to hear that. Yeah, that, those are both really great questions. Um, the, the landscape of like the music industry, at least from my perspective of being in the studio, you know, I was, I was in the studio with bands. So they'd come in.
01:41:56
Speaker
usually off a tour we'd record they'd be getting ready for some tour so like they were sort of like a revolving door of like you know stories and stories from the road and life and all that stuff and that that space being a safe space to be like real or talk about it it evolved over time it started as gossip you know it was like did you hear that this guy
01:42:18
Speaker
Or do that guy's not even he doesn't he's not even a Christian is in the band like. And the end like they know it and they still let me know and then evolved into you know people just. Outwardly telling me while I was working with them yeah I'm not a Christian anymore I never was or whatever and. It became.
01:42:39
Speaker
You know i think for some people almost a badge of honor to be like yeah i don't i don't even care about i'm i love this band i love the music i actually really like the label i like the shows. But the whole christian part of it just was never my bag or it's not anymore.
01:42:54
Speaker
But i definitely saw people that like that literally had to pretend they were until some point you know they had to pretend they believed it or or at least not say they didn't they had to go along with everything.
01:43:11
Speaker
You know that. I mean, I remember hearing that, like the rumors of the bands. I think, you know, one of the ones, the key ones was like, oh, sleeper. It's like people in no sleeper. It's like, yeah. And he is legend. It's like the lead singer from he is legend kiss the guy from like, from first to last on stage. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, cut you off. Just just dip it into the memory banks. I hope Mike, I like it.
01:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, I back it. Yeah, and then for me, you know, I had this deeply ingrained.
01:43:51
Speaker
conditioning that I was afraid to look at what was, like what is. Like I was afraid to just like, just literally observe current state of reality. I had a fear around that for a long time. I mean, so much so that, you know, it, I think it was the catalyst for me, you know, having a lot of self destructive behavior around alcohol and stuff like that.
01:44:17
Speaker
And I remember this is really funny, but I was my ex-wife and I were going to choose my wife at the time. We're going to this church here in Tennessee after I moved here called Journey. And it was like I felt like it was just so cool and everybody was so real and it was just awesome. And I do really like have a lot of good memories from that community.
01:44:39
Speaker
But I met this guy who I just love. He's the coolest dude. And he he he literally we were just having coffee one day and he's like, so what podcast do you like? And I was like, I don't listen to podcasts like I've never listened to any. And this is only like eight years ago or something like that. So the podcasts were not new. Like I just hadn't got on on the bandwagon. And he told me about a couple. And one of them was actually a church, a church's podcast from California.
01:45:05
Speaker
But they were like real edgy. Like they were talking about stuff that I, you know, I was like, is this okay to talk about? And then the other should have healthcare and whatnot. Yeah, well, yeah, but also like, you know, just like the annihilation theory of hell, you know, just stuff like that. Like, you know, different things. And then he also was like, Oh, you got to listen to the Robcast too. And I was like,
01:45:29
Speaker
oh well you know in my head I'm like but he's the guy that wrote that book that shall not be named and like um I remember like so I got really into both of those and I started to basically soften up to the idea of like I remember like I literally had this moment where I felt like God told me that I had permission to question him like that it like there was no nothing I could
01:45:59
Speaker
question that would change like any truth or reality or certainty or anything like that, right? So go ahead. Go ahead and question me all you want. In fact, you probably need to like, cause you don't, you don't really believe any of this stuff. You know, this isn't like really something that you have like real conviction about. So why don't you just really explore what, what do you believe? And I remember I got so into the Robcast and I had sailed through, you know, that's, um, uh,
01:46:27
Speaker
I'd sailed through not hearing anything too, you know, heretical, uh, on the podcast. And I was like, man, I really like this guy. He's just got such a great vibe and energy and I love everything he's saying. And I, I always, I had started leaning kind of like left politically quite a while before that. I never really got into politics that much, but I.
01:46:47
Speaker
I always resonated more with the left anyway. And then one day I was like, I really want to read Love Wins, but I know that if I read it, I won't be able to listen to his podcast anymore because I know I'm going to disagree with the book. I know that the book is wrong because that's what I've been told.
01:47:07
Speaker
And I read it and I felt like a thousand pounds of weight lift off of my body when I read that book. I just was like, like I had the I had a more intense spiritual experience from reading that book than any time I ever had in church or in a worship service or doing my 20th altar call or whatever. Like I really did have this like, yeah, yeah, enlightenment. And it's funny now because I see now I see
01:47:36
Speaker
Rob Bell's theology is fairly conservative based on what I even believe now. So, I mean, I love him still. I think he's amazing. I actually went and saw him live a couple of years ago. But yeah, so that's when it started. That was about, I wanna say maybe five years ago, four or five years ago. So it's been really recent for me. And it's escalated quickly. But- It does. I mean, once the cards start falling, that's what's crazy about it.
01:48:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, because I have a very similar experience. I read that book too, too long after it came out. And I'd started listening to his podcast as well. And that was a big help for me. I just remember when I read, maybe I was, I don't know where I was at when I read it, but I remember being like,
01:48:22
Speaker
Yeah, you read it and you're like, oh yeah, this all tracks and it's not wild. It's not, it's not what we were told it was. That's for goddamn sure. It's not like a book of, it's like a book of, but that's what they hated. What they hated about Rob Bell was like, this is a book of questions.
01:48:38
Speaker
And then I remember getting pissed watching interviews with him in college. It's like he doesn't answer their questions. And then it's like, yeah, wake the fuck up, bitch. Yeah. Read the gospels again because the guy that you worship never answered any of their questions. Right. Yeah. The book came from such a place of love to you. It was so obvious. Like, yeah, it was not it was pure like the intentions behind it were so pure like and I just it just resonated with me on such a deep level. I mean, I couldn't believe it.
01:49:08
Speaker
And I and then I got into roar and you know some and John Philip Newell is that another I think that's his name another guy brought one of Rob's mentors and just and Really like just started just feeling like this everything, you know The world is opening up everything's making so much more sense I feel more at ease and at peace and I ever have in my whole life like
01:49:35
Speaker
you know, addiction type behaviors and and like fear and anxiety that I'd been dealing with for so long were really like I could see like tangible shifts in these areas of my life and just just really wild stuff like that came of that. And and the big the big fear for me, like the the the the culture I grew up in was so performance based that
01:50:01
Speaker
You know, I always felt so afraid to be myself, like I would be kind of found out in public. Like if someone heard me cuss or heard me say something or
01:50:11
Speaker
they would be like, oh, you know, he I guess he's not really one of us or I guess he's not who I thought he was. And this whole weird, like fucked up like fantasy world where anyone's actually even gives a shit what I think, like it's so weird. And like a weird mix of pretension. Right. Like that. Yeah, self importance. You mentioned that earlier. But Casey was talking about earlier. Exactly. It's exactly the same thing. And
01:50:35
Speaker
That when that started to, you know, fall away. I mean, if I heard myself saying fuck on a podcast, like if, like right now, if, if, if my eight year ago self heard that I would be like mortified and shocked and like, and probably relieved too. But, um, but you know, so it's, I've come a long way and.
01:50:59
Speaker
Right now, like where my theology or faith or whatever rests is I kind of like and I know you didn't ask me this, but I'm going to say it anyway. But it was my next question is is I like love atheists like I I love reading atheists. I love Sam Harris is one of my favorite human beings. It's ever lived like he's kind of my guru right now and like but I'm not I don't feel any pressure to
01:51:28
Speaker
like make some declarative proclamation that I am an atheist. I tell people I'm an agnostic, and actually Richard Dawkins in his latest book, he says, because there's a scientific principle where you actually can't prove something doesn't exist, all true atheists are agnostic, because they're not out to try to prove the non-existence of a higher power.
01:51:54
Speaker
And I do like some woo woo, like spirituality stuff a lot, and it benefits me. But I definitely think, I definitely am in like the same camp as Sam right now, where I do truly believe that the world would be a better place without any religion. I truly believe that the costs are more impacting than the benefits.
01:52:20
Speaker
Like literally across the board of all religion that like the the best Evolved place the human race could get to is one where the religion does not exist anymore at all. That's where I personally am But you know, I'm also trying to keep curiosity Open-mindedness trying to be stay a learner trying to stay a beginner trying to not get set in my ways and not have that like you
01:52:48
Speaker
You know, that's the reason that I named my new record Certainty is because it's kind of a play like there is no such thing. Like we don't that's not even what we're called. We're not called to be certain about stuff like this. Like there's it doesn't matter. There's nothing on the line. And and that's what's so weird about the culture that I grew up in is certainty is like the bedrock of the of that entire movement. Like we know what is true.
01:53:14
Speaker
Yeah. And that's such a burden to put on a human being. And it's such a. Which is ironic. Horrible. They're trying to alleviate. They're trying to be like, yeah, the burden is unknowing. And you're like, no, no side. Yeah, the burden is the being unburdened is the day I realized no one is is like calling me to know to decide or know or get to know. I don't even get to know.
01:53:43
Speaker
Why do I think that I get to know what happens when I die? Or where the earth came from? Why is that so important? Who decided that was such a priority or a virtue to get to know?
01:54:00
Speaker
Any of this shit, like, it's just such a relief. It's just like, oh, I can just start to sort of unravel all my insecurities and start to sort of be comfortable in my skin and, you know, maybe try to like leave the world a slightly better place, you know, do cause more, you know, joy than suffering. That'd be nice. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, 100% on a lot of that. Like, I've listened to Sam Harris too.
01:54:29
Speaker
I think I heard him on Rogan very early on in my like, I'm not going to listen to like pseudo Christian talk radio anymore. I'm going to listen to some other things, you know? And it's weird to think about how many people
01:54:46
Speaker
started their like, quote unquote, deconstruction or whatever you want to call it journey through podcasts, whether they're related to Christianity or not. It's almost like for me, it was almost like finding some people that were not at all connected to my background that I felt like I could trust. Right. And then I felt like I understood like, okay, I see where this guy is coming from. And
01:55:12
Speaker
Like and it seems like it's actually okay to be him too. Like there's nothing. It's like there. Nothing's like burning down around his life because he's him. You know what I mean? There's something reassuring about that. Like, oh, maybe there is something else. Well, and for me like that was one of the things that like really shook my.
01:55:34
Speaker
my confidence or really exposed my lack of, that's what it is. It exposed my lack of confidence that I was covering up in like my belief system, you know, was like really finding out that Christians don't have this monopoly on a meaningful purpose driven life. Yes. So well put.
01:55:58
Speaker
you don't have to like follow this set of rules to feel like your life is it means something or it's or it's it's fulfilling in and I think by finding some people that were totally for me it was like finding people that were totally removed from Christianity that seem to like have have their selves together like to have a good sense of self which is what I was lacking completely
01:56:23
Speaker
Absolutely. That was wrong. It was sinful. I convoluted self-love with selfishness and so many things like that. It's crazy. It's insane to think about. But yeah, focusing on yourself is like a fleshly, sinful thing.
01:56:47
Speaker
It never made any sense and never never tracked in any way shape or form if I really am honest with myself and never tracked yeah, and so much of like what Christianity had become for me like From an early point, you know when I look back on it like I just never had warm fuzzies about Any of it. I just I had this like unwavering like sense of duty to maintain the illusion that like
01:57:17
Speaker
I believe this and this is 100% true and I have confidence in this. When I look back on it and when I was really honest with myself, I was like, this is all performative. When you were talking about earlier, I was in a band in college and that was 100% of my identity and I remember- Tooth and nail really missed a good opportunity on that one. Yeah, you guys screwed up.
01:57:40
Speaker
Did you deliberately ignore their press kits or? It starts to feel that way. I remember like one of the guys in the band would he would like swear pretty openly and I just remember like fretting about that just like having like anxiety about the fact that like someone is going to hear him swearing and they're not going to
01:58:03
Speaker
Like, it wasn't like, Oh, my God, what if somebody is hurt because of this? Or what if somebody is like, let us stray because this it was all all of it was about people are not going to think that we're genuine. And I want to seem like I'm genuine. I want to project ideal Christian guy, and none of it's real. It's all performative. I don't have any conviction about any of this stuff. What I have is guilt. And that's it.
01:58:31
Speaker
Guilt, shame, desperate, like a desperate pleading. Like, you know, I was talking to my therapist like last week about like, I mean, we were getting heavy and I'm new with him. He's awesome. But like there's the deep, deep core sense of safety, right? Like we just want to feel safe. We want to feel like everything's okay.
01:58:52
Speaker
And like the message that I grew up with is everything is not okay. Like unless, are you sure you're right with God? Are you sure your name's in the book? Are you, you know, maybe, maybe that guy was just never a believer cause he backslid. Like maybe he just never was like, um, you know, like my, my mom, when I told my mom, I wasn't a Christian anymore and I'm not dissing your mom. If you listen to this, but I really doubt my mom's gonna listen to this. Um,
01:59:19
Speaker
She said, did you ever really know Jesus? That was her response. And it broke my heart, you know? And I was like, no, Ma. You know, I wanted to say no, nobody does. Can you even define that for me? I don't even know if you could. And I'm not trying to offend anybody right now, offend anyone, listen, I really not. I sound like a total asshole right now, but I promise I'm not trying to be.
01:59:48
Speaker
I tried to get my mom to read Love Wins. I was like, if you read that book, I will answer any questions you have about it. And she was like, oh, okay. And she didn't, to my knowledge. And I just wanted her to have a fraction of the experience I had from reading that book so badly. But yeah. I think one of the things that's wild and difficult as we try to figure all this stuff out
02:00:17
Speaker
coming from the places that we came from. And you know, the fact is people like us and the people who listen and so many other people are all stuck in this world of not, whether they're ex-Christian, ex-vangelical, post-Christian, progressive, I mean, there's so many different ways you can look at it, but all of those words don't jive with the world that they grew up in.
02:00:42
Speaker
Of course, there's a disappointment and fear on the family's end for the people who are going in that direction. Everyone's kind of stuck in that cycle of like, we're going to be surrounded by
02:00:57
Speaker
the version of the faith that we grew up in for the rest of our lives. Other people don't have to deal with that. It's super interesting. Maybe you come from an atheist family and become a Christian and now there's that dynamic. I doubt that maybe they have some of the witnessing at Thanksgiving that gets a little awkward. I don't know, but for the most part, when you're talking
02:01:22
Speaker
You know, when I, when I look at what's going on in the world, when you look at what people are talking about, you know, politically speaking, right? Like 80% of even white evangelicals were like back to Trump and were not even reluctantly. It seems like you're like full blown on board and kind of slapped was a little bit of slap in the face of what you, even you thought you grew up. Like I knew what I grew up with wasn't, was I believed anymore. But when you saw them even betray those things, but still pretend like they were,
02:01:50
Speaker
that those virtues and values mattered. That was honestly hurtful, I think, for a lot of people. It was why I left church. The 2016 election is literally why I stopped going to church for the rest of my life. How many people had that exact same experience?
02:02:08
Speaker
And I think that's why the gospel coalition has been harping on this whole thing for the last four. It's like, well, wait, wait, wait. It's not all bad. There's some we are some never trumpers over here. Come join us. It's like it's it's a little late for that. But also like, yeah, I don't know. It's wearing a weird time like where it's blowing the fuck up. It really is in an unprecedented way. You can just look at the stats. You know, there's a few people I follow on Twitter who just post
02:02:35
Speaker
stats and break them down well with charts and graphs. And it's like, God damn, the way that the world is shifting and moving and it's tough. Like you just want your, all you want, all you want is for, you know, you want your mom to leave, to read love wins. And it's, that's not going to change anyone's life. It could, it could be a catalyst, but it's just like, I'm inviting you to, to see and learn a little bit about what affected me and why, why I changed and why I am the way I am.
02:03:04
Speaker
And that's all that you were given. All you did, all your mission as a Christian, as a kid, as a young kid who wanted to bring people into it was to invite people in, just read this, just read this New Testament, read the Gospel of John. Now you do that from the other side and you realize that's frustrating and hurtful too, where it's like you're not even willing
02:03:31
Speaker
to to meet people halfway. It's really not what you're about. Yeah, it's interesting, too. You just made me think about I was so afraid, like I said earlier, to be authentic in a public space. And, you know, I started to sort of like out myself as not an ex-Christian on Facebook during the last election.
02:03:56
Speaker
And then since I've had this podcast, I've talked very openly about it. Actually, not as openly as I am on this. This is this is the most openly I've ever talked about it in a public space. But it would be a real gift if we could be the podcast that ruin. Yeah.
02:04:14
Speaker
Dude, if this podcast ruins my career, then fuck them. But the only responses I've gotten are other people that are going through the same thing I'm going through. That's literally the only thing. Like, it's been beautiful. Like, so awesome. And there's a lot of people going through the same thing that I'm going through. So, you know, that's my anecdotal data on that.
02:04:39
Speaker
Metric, but it's like it's obvious, you know, this is like I mean I keep seeing online on some of the hilarious Instagram said I follow like, you know The church is freaking out right now about this. It's yeah, totally like scrambling like and hopefully their business model will collapse completely and That would be really yeah. Yeah, it's like it's
02:05:03
Speaker
And it's like you talked about earlier, like that, you know, having some empathy for the people that you grew up with and grew up around, you know, and stuff, right? I feel like what's hard to find is that that ground where like, because for me, like, I'm out 100%.
02:05:23
Speaker
And I consider myself an agnostic, but like what was freeing to me was not to say, I don't believe in any of this. It was more to say like, I don't.
02:05:36
Speaker
I don't care about any of this anymore. I don't care and I don't have to care. And stop giving me books. I don't care enough to read the book. I don't want to think about this anymore and weigh it. It's not that I don't want to think about it at all. It's just that I don't want to continually weigh my life's purpose and internal destination against this book that you're handing me right now. Totally. God, yeah, that's great.
02:06:05
Speaker
What's hard to find is the balance with that, where it took me a while to get to a point where I'm like, if you're a person who believes in anything, whatever it is, if you find meaning and comfort and happiness in being involved with the church and in believing in
02:06:29
Speaker
uh, Jesus as your personal savior and stuff like that. And it doesn't negatively affect the way that you behave towards other people. Cause I mean, we, you can't control people's belief systems and you know what, if they're homophobic on the inside, what are we going to do? You know, but if it's
02:06:48
Speaker
If on the outside, at least they're friendly and kind and loving towards the people that they interact with. I don't know. I just do whatever you want. Do what makes you feel good and whole and feel a sense of meaning. A hundred percent. I you know, as I was kind of passing through the five stages of deconstruction, which I just made that up, but you know, the resent, the resent,
02:07:17
Speaker
The treatment stage was the one that was the most difficult for me. And, but, you know, I came to a point one day I remember like, I really I really love the, the sentiment that like everyone's doing the best with what they have with you know what their resources are what they were given.
02:07:33
Speaker
And I remember thinking, like, if I really believe that, then I can't really. And this was this was also really liberating, like there isn't a person for me to blame for any of this. There really isn't. And I can't look at someone and be like, you stupid, ignorant idiot. Like, what are you? You know, I can't do that. That's that's that's no different than than than how they treated other people.
02:08:01
Speaker
you know, or how I treated other people. That's no different. And so, yeah, I 100 percent agree. And when I said like that, I do believe that the world would be better without religion, I do believe that. But I also believe that that's not a realistic expectation and that I'm sure like I don't I'm sure there are people out there that are very religious that are like really putting more good into the world than than evil.
02:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if I know any of them and the fact I'm sure I do and but the fact that I don't know that that they are is probably something to do with it. You know what I mean? But yeah, I agree 100% and I really one of the reasons I've been hesitant to be really like transparent in this in this whole topic is because I really don't want to hurt anybody. I'm not trying to like like I'm really
02:08:57
Speaker
I don't get any satisfaction out of that at all. I mean, I do get satisfaction out of Christian nightmares so much. It's actually how I know about this podcast. It's like one of you commented on something and I was like, oh, that's so.
02:09:15
Speaker
That's that's that seems cool. And that's how I started listening to your podcast. But I was actually going to reach out to you guys before you reached out to me and be and say, like, hey, we should do a podcast. Oh, now I am crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got a we got a Christian nightmares episode two coming out tomorrow. Oh, I'm excited. So excited about it.
Religious Structures and Personal Values
02:09:42
Speaker
I think it came out great. We're pumped about it. One thing I want to say, and I know we've been going on for a while so we can kind of wrap up. When you talk about a world without religion, it's funny because one of the things that I think about, I think about that a lot. That's one of the things that's kind of on my mind a bit because I still participate in Christian religion. Yeah.
02:10:04
Speaker
I don't know. It's tough for me to parse out in a few words what that means to me and why I do. But the community that I have is meaningful to me. And if it disappears, I don't I don't have a backup plan. There's no church that I'm like, well, you know, let's just replace it. Right. It's for sure. And
02:10:21
Speaker
What I hear you saying and what I've been thinking of is like religion is it just feels like the mechanism for control. Like you can have a meaningful life of faith and you can form a little group but and if that works for you great but what I feel like when you look at religion as a whole there's all these I don't know I'm about to maybe shoot my own argument in the foot here but
02:10:49
Speaker
It's like I came from non-denominational land, which was there is no hierarchy. There is no oversight. That's Mark Driscoll land, right? There's just an asshole at the top saying a bunch of bullshit and hurting a lot of people and then rising from the ashes to be a piece of shit again.
02:11:08
Speaker
There's no good way around that. That's trash. It's a net negative for the world. But then you look at oversight and you look at denominations and the way that the Southern Baptist Convention works. Even the Catholic Church has a myriad of issues and any sort of high church structure has its own problems.
02:11:27
Speaker
I honestly started this thinking that maybe the concept of the structure is what the problem is, right? Like a religious control. You look at historically speaking in the way that the Catholic Church has been in bed with empire and controlled the narrative of salvation. But then you look at what non-denominationalism does and how that
02:11:54
Speaker
creates Mark Driscoll's and things like that. And then you look at what maybe this is, I think what's shitty is, you know what it is? I bet if you just get rid of religion completely, now you have like, you know, maybe real politics becomes there. Like people are always going to like gravitate towards something and be controlled by something and want simple answers for complex questions. And yeah, yeah. I don't know. All I'm saying, I'm not trying to,
02:12:19
Speaker
even refute anything. I think I'm saying that I'm, I feel stuck. I honestly feel stuck and confused. And I totally get that. And I agree with everything you just said. And, um, not that that matters, but I
02:12:34
Speaker
I do think that there's this inherent need for tribalism in us. It's really destructive and us against them. We're in the in group. Those are the out group. That whole thing is permeated both sides of the political spectrum right now, in a really dangerous way.
02:12:53
Speaker
And also, my experience is very limited. I'm not an expert on world religion and historical... I could meet someone from some other country that had a complete... an experience in religion that I've never even heard of before.
02:13:08
Speaker
But, you know, the arguments I've heard for just sort of the net negative of religion as a whole are very compelling and and they resonate with me on a deep, deep level. You know, the guy that I was talking about earlier, John Philip Newell, he's sort of an expert in pre-Empire Celtic Christianity and very specific. Yeah. And it's really beautiful. I mean, it is like
02:13:36
Speaker
nothing like the kind of Christianity that we were raised with. I mean, it literally couldn't be more different. And I've read one of his books and about half of another one of his books, and he is just a sage. I mean, he's a mystic. I think he even identifies as like a Christian mystic.
02:13:55
Speaker
And, you know, that kind of shit is awesome. Like, I love it. I mean, I'm not going to like change my kind of where I'm sitting right now as far as my beliefs go based on it. But like I completely back that dude and like what he's trying to do like so hard. And yeah, it's it's tough. I mean, it's a it's a tricky situation. I wouldn't ever like I wouldn't ever want to like rob someone of
02:14:21
Speaker
some sort of sense of community or purpose or anything. That would be horrible. That would be like monstrous to want people to be robbed of that. I personally never really felt connected to a community in a church. I always felt outside. I always felt like I was like not fitting in and they were all getting something that I didn't get. Like I just didn't get it. And I felt it actually kind of made me feel worse about myself to be completely honest.
02:14:50
Speaker
I am 100%. It was easy for me to be like, bye. You know, it's funny like talking about this stuff. So when you, I have this thought that's like stuck in my head that I continually think about where, you know, when people start talking about like,
02:15:11
Speaker
evolution and humans, you know, being like an evolutionary anomaly. And is this ever has this ever happened before on other planets? Is there life out there and stuff? I keep having this I always have a thought that like, what if we're inevitable? Like, what if evolution inevitably leads to some sort of a sentient being that that is just sort of dominates the rest?
02:15:37
Speaker
of the life in their realm, you know, but
02:15:41
Speaker
I think that like some of the stuff you guys are talking about, like the propensity for religions to turn into this tribalistic self-protecting organism that inevitably strays way far from their core principles and never to protect themselves and grow their own institution. I think that that's really just a characteristic of
02:16:10
Speaker
human institutions in general, you know, whether we're talking about like governments, yeah, corporations, whatever it is, like, 100% institutions, institutions naturally protect themselves and prioritize growth above all things. And they will compromise their, their their principles to keep growing and increasing the influence of their of their organization, right? They, they naturally need
02:16:38
Speaker
oversight and accountability, and they naturally resist those things. Religion is just another one of those things. Corporations are like a more recent development, but they do the exact same thing. How many times did you hear conservative Christian leaders like
02:17:03
Speaker
Make jokes about liberal starbucks doing this that or the other and how ridiculous they were cups yeah exactly and whatever you look at like at starbucks what they're doing right now to try to resist.
02:17:19
Speaker
unionization and undermine it and stuff. Audio just leaked of them talking openly about how they're going to try to undermine this push to unionize their staff and stuff. It's the same. Whenever you've got a group of humans all working towards a common goal, I feel like that's what we naturally do and it's the tribalism we were talking about. It's just a natural function of it and it's just something that regardless of whether we're talking about a company or a government or a religion,
02:17:48
Speaker
it is always gonna require people either on the outside or on the periphery of it to try to hold it accountable and a lot of times unsuccessfully, because that's where it's gonna trend. Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I think you're bringing up a couple points. I think that the thing under the thing under the thing of all of this is like natural evolutionary components gone amok, right?
02:18:16
Speaker
Like, it's kind of like how, like, you know, anxiety, chronic anxiety is such a thing in the Western world, especially. But the reason we feel anxious is a survival instinct. It's something that actually protected us, that kept us alive, that, like, kept our species from dying, right? And I think that at the core of all this is just this desire for safety and survival, right? But it's just gone amuck. It's evolved. Like, if you have to take it up in the woods, you're always looking over your shoulder for a saber-toothed tiger.
02:18:46
Speaker
Exactly. And I think like on an institutional level, I'm not saying like every single person involved. I think there is like real greed and evil and addiction and mental like health, even stuff that goes into a lot of this stuff, especially in church and in politics. But as an institutional level, the core kind of thing that's driving these communities is a sense of wanting everything to be OK.
02:19:14
Speaker
You know it's just gotten really mutated like everything to be okay for a billionaire means like getting more money or whatever like i don't know what the like i don't i don't think seem pretty okay for them now it's yeah but like you know i can understand how like my.
02:19:32
Speaker
instincts to wanna survive and be okay and protect myself and feel safe. I've seen those anecdotally in my life spin out into really destructive things, you know? And so I get that on an institutional level, how that happens. So this is more, and that's what's beautiful about it is I think this type of thinking even comes from a different place. It comes from a place of compassion, curiosity,
02:19:58
Speaker
empathy and I'm really shitty at all of those things I just said but except for the curiosity part but at least I'm like trying and I'm aware of it and I'm you know I'm trying to be a little bit better version of myself every day than I was yesterday and
02:20:17
Speaker
I never got that from religion. I never got that from Christianity. That was not a priority or virtue. I remember, and I can rap with this, this is just crazy, but I remember I was reading something or going through something and I was starting to think about that I had never really established my own set of values based on who I really am in my body and in my heart and in my mind and my soul, who I am. And I remember
02:20:46
Speaker
looking up the definition of values and it was and it was like it's what you value and I was like oh I never really thought of it that way and the reason is is because my values weren't what I value they're what I had to value they're what like I was supposed to value and
02:21:05
Speaker
in order to be okay in the eyes of the church or the eyes of other Christians or God or whatever. Yeah, to fit in. So I remember that was like a revelation like, oh, I get to decide what I value. I get to like actually really try to like suss out like what's in there and what's like, what's important to me. And it was like, oh shit, I have to do that. But it's also beautiful, you know, at the same times.
02:21:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it. I think even you talking about, it's like, I was thinking about that just today was like, you know, cause this is what people are thinking about as we're rolling up on holiday season and spending time with people. You're like, you realize how complicated it gets spending time.
02:21:49
Speaker
with groups of people who have such different value systems. It doesn't have to become a problem, and I think maybe one of the better, maybe the pinnacle of human evolution would be to not always let those things get in the way.
02:22:07
Speaker
they do. Even to your point, Casey, talking about the people on the outside, the peripherals of society who are pushing against, whether it's the corporations, the institutions. I think that's what was attractive to me and still is about Jesus and you can find this in other people and people should find it where they can. But it was like the way that he came up against
02:22:29
Speaker
the concepts of empire and the concepts of religious structures that keep people out. To me, those are the things that I do value. So I think that's why I'm still attracted to those ideas and why I can still sit in the world that I do is because I believe in that. I don't believe in religious structures or repeat after me's or these institutions that harm people and
02:22:56
Speaker
I think that the ultimate point to me is like, you know, we talk about how damaging it was to say, he Christ died for you. Christ died for your sins and you did this and that's because we're all awful and then he came back and now it's great. It's like, this is the natural outcome of pushing against those things. Do you want to be like, do you want to pick that up or not? Like, and it's up to you. But to me, I think that's beautiful, man. I really do think that's beautiful. It's what resonates with me.
02:23:25
Speaker
That's great. And I love that. I honestly do. And I celebrate that with you like I truly do, even though that's not where I'm at. Yeah.
Aaron Sprinkle's Current Projects
02:23:32
Speaker
I've watched too many Bart Ehrman videos or anything, but I don't know if you've ever watched him, but he's he's one of my other favorite people. I'll check him out now. Yeah, he's he's a badass. I like telling that Jesus copy and paste fish and toast. Yeah, yeah. Copy of control resonates with me.
02:23:51
Speaker
seeing control V's. Yeah, it's dope. I like how he makes Boone farm out of lake water too. Aaron, tell us about what you're up to, where we can find you. You obviously just put out a new album. You have two, you had two new albums coming on the same day. One's your solo project, one's you got going on. Yeah.
02:24:13
Speaker
Yeah, so I put out a lot of music through the company. I work full time for a company called Soundstripe. I'm a full time composer there. It's a music licensing company and I make music for their catalog for their customers and you know, videographers and YouTubers and TV shows and ads and all that stuff.
02:24:31
Speaker
And they release all the music I make. So, you know, sometimes it will come out. I don't I don't even really have anything to do with when it comes out. It just does. And one of the projects I do there is one that I have with one of the other guys there named Adrian. And we have a project called Snow Bones. And it's really like our love of like British, you know, all, you know, British like 90s and 2000s British like all pop kind of, I guess.
02:25:00
Speaker
And I sing in that and it happened to accidentally come out the same day as my like quote unquote real record that I have been working on for like two years. So and that is under my name Aaron Sprinkle and it's called Certainty and you can stream it anywhere.
02:25:23
Speaker
that you can stream stuff. And if you want to buy a vinyl or a CD or a cassette, you can go to my website, erinsprinklemusic.com. There's actually five bonus tracks on the EP, so it actually is more like an LP. And yeah, it's a great album too, man. I listened to it a few times the other day and it's really fantastic. Oh, I appreciate it. Thanks. Yeah, I was really going for a specific kind of vibe, kind of a throwback thing for me.
02:25:49
Speaker
And then I'm starting to play out again. I don't know when this podcast is going to be out, but I have a show next month in Kansas City with Emery and Aaron Marsh from Copeland on December 10th.
02:26:05
Speaker
and I'm excited I really have not played out for a long long long time and I'm gonna be focusing on that more and and then I have a podcast also called moon traveling with with my co-host Matthew Schwartz and you know we've only put out I think six episodes so far but the response has been really good and it's been really fun and it's great I listen to that too I got it
02:26:30
Speaker
I got the first couple episodes. You know, one of the things I love that you did is, you know, you guys had an AMA on that and people ask a lot of music questions, the things that we didn't quite get to this time. Not that you haven't answered that a million times. I know that like the fan in me of all the stuff you've worked on wanted me to ask a bunch of
02:26:50
Speaker
the same questions you've probably answered in a million places. Well, I'd be happy to come back on, but I wanted to talk about the juicy shit. I love this. This was a lot of fun. I was glad we got to get to know you a little bit. Man, I'm really honored and just really grateful. This has been just such a fun experience. And yeah. Thank you. This is so much fun for us. Hit me up on Instagram too. It's just Aaron Sprinkle. If you hear this and want to talk about it, that's a good place to read.
02:27:17
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. So everyone check out his new music. Check out his podcast. It's great. And, uh, yeah, I guess I don't have anything else. Casey went until next time. Until next time. Thanks for listening. We will catch you later.