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DSC: "Whistlespeak" (s5e6) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
72 Plays8 days ago
DENOBULAN GOD COMPLEX. Burnham and Tilly go undercover as a pair of true believers to find the next clue which has been hidden in a malfunctioning water tower built by a Denobulan scientist who was part of the team that discovered the Progenitors' technology. Are they convincing spies? Bryan & Shereese investigate.
The grades begin at (18:03).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Show
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Whistle. Speak. Whistle speak.
Exploration on Planet Alemno
00:00:05
Speaker
Let's fly. Planet Alemno. We believe the next clue is in the high summit. Only the chosen devote. They enter the temple. You just have to complete the journey of the mother computer. I'm the queen of endurance. Having a spiritual awakening. Sounds kind of wonderful. There's no shortcuts here. um She doesn't need to die.
Introduction to Trek Mary Kill Podcast
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Charisse. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a Star Trek podcast that's all about upholding the Prime Directive until a main character is put in jeopardy.
WhistleSpeak as a Communication Method
00:00:55
Speaker
Charisse, can you whistle? I can whistle. Can you whistle? I can't. And it sure would have been cool to have been able to whistle in the introduction, don't you think?
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I honestly was, I kept expecting to to hear someone whistle in this episode, like to see them do it. And I get that they're saying, oh, it's from long distances. So that's their workaround to be like, so we never have to do it in person because it's only for long distances. I just want to see it anyways. Like I want to, I want to see somebody whistle in their presence and like have somebody whistle back from the far, far distance. But that, but that didn't happen.
00:01:26
Speaker
or after the 20, 25 minute mark in the episode, it basically it does not come back again until the very, very last shot of the episode where it seems like they kind of remembered, we should drop in. Oh yeah, the whistle. That is an episode yes the episode, but they really go a long time without it.
00:01:42
Speaker
um yeah that it doesn't apply to the plot it doesn't have any bearing on the story no but it's a cool idea it's a very cool idea they should have just that's why i'm like i just wanted a little bit i wanted it sprinkled in more because it was so interesting it's like this is it's it's i think it's hard after hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Star Trek episodes over the Trek universe to come up with anything novel or new or interesting for aliens, because there's always so much you can do. right And they're always going to look humanoid because they're played by human actors. like there's There's limitations. um But I felt like doing this, and I thought they were going to do echolocation. I thought they were going to like take it there, which they didn't. But I just love this idea. So that's why I was like, I want a little more, because this is actually something I have never thought of or seen before.
00:02:26
Speaker
Well done, Discovery. Yeah, where people can basically communicate as birds do from the top of a tree and talk to each other over long distances. It's WhistleSpeak, the sixth episode of Discovery's fifth season. That's what we'll be discussing this week, written together by Kenneth Lin and Brandon Schultz, directed by Christopher Byrne.
Star Trek Episode Overview
00:02:45
Speaker
It premiered on Paramount Plus May 2nd, 2024. Memory Alpha describes it.
00:02:49
Speaker
While undercover in a pre-warp society, Captain Burnham is forced to consider breaking the Prime Directive when a local tradition threatens Tilly's life. Meanwhile, Culber tries to connect with Stamets, and Adira steps up when Raynor assigns them a position on the bridge.
00:03:04
Speaker
What Memory Alpha doesn't tell you is that this pre-warp society has a slang language that's basically bird whistles and burn them until they have to navigate that well. I kind of wrote this being generous on this rewatch or before I started my rewatching. They try they have to navigate the whistle speak to get to the next clue, which is and hidden inside a camouflaged water tower.
00:03:25
Speaker
built there by a denobulin scientist who was part of the group that discovered the progenitor's technology. They don't really have to do anything with the whistle speak. They never have to like demonstrate that they can do it. They just appreciate it. They just appreciate it. Yeah. Which I also appreciated it. So I was like, okay. And I, and you said this last week that you were the one who said, wasn't Michael Burnham a archeologist or something? And then here she says, we find out she was a xenobiologist. Xenoanthropologist. Oh yeah. Xenoanthropologist. I liked that.
00:03:52
Speaker
connection. Yeah, no, you could see her really come to life when she's like, Oh, cool. we Figure out a culture she's a nerd out about this. Yeah. Yep. We know this because David k Cronenberg, I mean, COVID hands, Michael Burnham, literally a piece of paper with the five scientists in the group. He writes in all caps, like I do when I hand write, but blue ink probably, I don't know why blue ink after all these years, black ink, to superior ink. ah but Anyway.
Analysis of Halemnites Culture
00:04:18
Speaker
So that's WhistleSpeak in a nutshell. This is the planet Halemno is where this next clue is. The Halemnites speak Halemnese, I believe. ah And I don't know, I guess my the first thing I want to touch on before we get too deep into the production stuff is that the WhistleSpeak was the interesting part about them. Otherwise, this felt a lot like primitive culture potluck.
00:04:41
Speaker
there was sort of were they distinct or were they really just kind of a generic backwards browning gray clothed religious group that's really they just seem like ah you know uneducated peasants who believed in a in a angry god that needed sacrifices and that's about it and then they have
Cultural and Character Exploration
00:05:01
Speaker
this whistle speak that as you said we don't see anyone actually do it on screen and so and their their faces their foreheads they it looks like temporary tattoos that everyone just got the same one applied. So is that a distinction that they put give to each other? Is that supposed to mean some sort of trill like spots that are that grow but they all look the same? There's no they don't deviate based on you know, I mean, like there's not a lot. Basically, there wasn't a ton of thought put into the Harlem Knights.
00:05:35
Speaker
but Beyond the whistle speak there really wasn't we have a generic father-daughter conflict ah I don't know actually this is me being a stupid old white man that um His child is a is they is that his daughter. I'm not sure I don't think they actually saved daughter, but I could be wrong about that. No, they don't ever say daughter so yeah Rava Rava's Gender identity is they and they just say Rava or Gem or child. Yes. Yeah, so And then you've got the kind of you really do have like the the wisdom dispensing ah black woman basically as well who's also sick and all this those other stuff that it doesn't give it a patina of ah resonance. It's just kind of there. So that's why like the whistle speak is so exciting of like, well what are they going to do with this? And I don't know that we get anything more beyond it exists.
00:06:30
Speaker
That's it. So I don't know. Did you have any thoughts? Did you feel like that was what was going on or are you just really interested in where it was going? You know, I was just really interested in where it's going. Now that you say that, I will agree with you that they are pretty generic. And in my experience with these shows, typically if it's a pre-warp society, there's a 50-50 chance I will like it. So I will either like it or I will hate it. Like it's pretty, and it it depends on however they do the culture. I do think this culture was generic, but it was generic and I liked it. It wasn't like, oh my gosh, with these people. You know, because sometimes they just do, they just make really weird, they just make really weird choices.
00:07:07
Speaker
um I do love that they called each other some some word, which I don't know what it was. Compure. Compure, yeah. I love that they, everyone called everyone compure, and it was like this, we are one, like we all call each other the same thing kind of idea. Well, they don't have ah any words to denote status. So, right? That was- And they literally are one. The rest of the planet is dead.
00:07:29
Speaker
yeah from They are the last patch of green on this entire planet, which is nuts to me. So yeah, I would agree with you after what you said that it's super generic, but I actually liked it. um I thought it was fine. I thought what added to the genericness of it of these are just a backwards people as sort of the way that Burnham treats them. you you know It's amazing that you found a cure at all really impressive when they're able to use the sound waves to to dislodge the sand from the woman's lungs. And then just at the end when Burnham just just drops the curtain to reveal the great and powerful Oz basically to them. yeah says The sacrifices don't bring in the rain, okay? Technology does.
00:08:11
Speaker
Trust me on that, I promise. Wouldn't Obots just think technology is God, is a God? Like, you know what I mean? Like, it there's such a big leap that has to be made. I thought the exact same thing. I was like, why not just pretend to be a God? Like, that would make more like, that would probably be unethical. But if he's already thinking that, like, yeah, I would like make the technology.
00:08:34
Speaker
You know, that this can change their rituals. Like, their rituals is maintaining this technology so they don't die. They can have rituals for that. Well, they don't even maintain the technology, right? They've created this whole religion around these towers that are malfunctioning. That was Michael's thing, though, at the end. She was like, this is technology, and you're going to have to maintain it. We fixed it for now, but you're going to have to maintain it in the future. Otherwise, it's going to break down, and we can teach you. And that's why I was like, well, could that make that their new ritual that they can still have, you know,
Tilly's Role and Development
00:09:02
Speaker
connectedness and all that stuff and make that a part of their time. But I would not have believed her. I think we need to talk about this prime directive part that you're bringing up. That's like we should talk about it a lot. Talk about it later when I'll bring it up again, because you're absolutely right. I think there's ah that's kind of ah an interesting. I kind of think that that's the point of the episode that is they got wrong.
00:09:25
Speaker
like just flat out wrong in in how they portrayed it. This has nothing to do with the clues or how the culture is. I think the way that they viewed the prime directive in this case is actually completely wrong and not in a way that makes me angry like a nerd, but sort of in a way that made it feel very ham handed, ham fisted that they had to do. They wanted to do things a certain way and because they thought the prime directive was this, but it really isn't. Anyway, oh that's the tease, I guess.
00:09:52
Speaker
The other last thing I kind of want to touch on before we get into any details in the grades is, what do we think about Tilly as an Academy professor? By the way, I'm only arriving at an opinion about her as a professor from what she literally tells us in the show. I'm not like dividing it from anything else. She is a filled with doubt I'm fucking it up kind of character about this whole thing. So I guess I'm just asking you like, do you think she's actually a good professor if you were to imagine her instructing cadets? I don't know because and I said this before, both Tilly and Adira tend to talk in like halting speech as if they're always unsure of themselves. And
00:10:38
Speaker
For me, that instantly puts doubt in my mind because I'm like, wait, if you're not sure, then I'm not sure because you're the one who's in charge here. So I don't know. If she's so full of doubt, maybe she's not good, but maybe she's better than she thinks. I still haven't seen her with students other than that one time when they went to that planet and fought that invisible creature or something.
00:10:56
Speaker
So Burnham asks her what are you gonna tell this cadet that's thinking about leaving the Academy and she goes stay don't go I don't know that she wants to leave it all and she's not the first we're not giving the cadets what they need I mean you're They're trying to set up that they're gonna do this Starfleet Academy spin-off like they at least knew that they didn't know this is gonna be the final season of discovery But they knew that Starfleet Academy was coming so this episode especially like really lays in like what's gonna happen there I don't know that this is like an ah The way that it used to be, and I know I sound like an old man, but I also am wondering if I'm completely off the mark here. If you're trying to plant the seeds of a new show or a new enterprise that you want viewers to get excited about,
00:11:40
Speaker
Wouldn't you be talking about how exciting it is? She can't wait to get back there. ah My students are teaching me a lot. They're very interesting. You know, I mean, instead, she's like, I don't know. It all kind of sucks. And I'm going to blow it. And the the Academy sucks. We're all we're all bad there. No one knows what we're doing.
00:12:00
Speaker
We're all pieces of shit and none of us are credentialed and we're just figuring it out. ah There's a lot of, anyway. Maybe there's going to be the switch though. She's going to be like, so we're going to change everything and make it incredible. Come watch our new show. Maybe that's the big, the big pitch. The people who ruined it are going to be also the ones who turn it around. so ah I guess the episode though at least, I have an issue with it being laid in for this particular storyline because it seems very, a red directive mission where literally the fate of existence hangs in the balance, seems like the worst pairing of the, is Tilly gonna be able to mentor some students ah to thread that in there? Like it seemed more logical that she would be the one actually helping
00:12:49
Speaker
Uh, Ensign Tal on the bridge, figure out their shit. That seems like a much more relevant one-to-one. Right. ah mentor ah dira instead And she's down on the planet, like being a nervous Nellie that's filled filled with self-doubt, helping, uh, burn them on an away mission. And I'm like, I don't, I don't know. is This is not relevant to what they're trying. to do anyway. So I guess what I'm getting at is I want to talk about that for a minute and it's going to come up a few more times. And obviously Starfleet Academy is coming. They just, they started shooting this year. So that's all coming. But, uh, the fact that the episode is taking time to spotlight, but she's not a good instructor. And they obviously use that as motivation for her in this episode in moment in a moment or two. I actually really like to kind of guide, um,
00:13:37
Speaker
Rava, right? The the child through some struggles. I thought that was nice. It's not quite the same as teaching, though. It's not at all teaching. It's mentoring. Yeah, or mothering, actually. if you know If anything, it's being very sweet and compassionate. So anyway.
00:13:52
Speaker
Uh, some project, some production perspective for us before you get down the line here, Anthony Pascal for trekmovie dot.com interviewed Mary Wiseman after this episode's release. And she said, we shot in this beautiful park, which I cannot remember the name. It was a gorgeous expansive park in Ontario. And I especially spend so much time on the ship. So getting to suddenly be plunged into a really natural environment was really fun and engaging and different. So I love that.
00:14:16
Speaker
and then getting to do a classic Star Trek episode where we go in disguise as the native aliens was fun. This was my first time in the prosthetics trailer, which was dope. And I don't know, Mary Wiseman, really beyond her being Tilly on the screen. And it's I don't know, I guess I'm kind of like, oh, she's exactly in real life how she is on the screen.
00:14:34
Speaker
but Maybe she writes her own dialogue. that My question is what, what was the purpose of the prosthetics trailer to draw the symbols on their foreheads? To take the temporary tattoo and just put it on their foreheads. yeah Are those considered prosthetics? I know. and Okay. I mean, it's an it's a makeup apply. Yeah. I would think it'd just be makeup. Like yeah you just take a, like a Sharpie, not a Sharpie, but you know, like the skin safe tattoo markers. Yeah. That's basically a skin Sharpie, but okay.
00:15:01
Speaker
Star Trek Discovery is a very expensive show, but it is always interesting to see how they shift the With this episode, I was like, they were so smart to not do prosthetics because they had so many natives in this episode.
00:15:17
Speaker
Well, they had a lot of natives and there they had these incredible digital vistas that for Discovery, like Discovery has amazing visual effects, but let's say they probably use a bit more than usual and they actually had to stitch it into some of the live action. They were probably out on location shooting for maybe more than they usually do.
00:15:38
Speaker
Maybe an extra day. It seemed like maybe it could be wrong. They also had to build that temple that Chamber. Yeah, remember we said in one of those earlier episodes. We could have at least seen an entry. Yes Temple so we got like this time. Yeah, we got here So so they thought about it. They just like were gonna say that we're not gonna do too many temple entrances because we don't want you to get tired of it that makes sense yeah But then it means necessarily that they they all kind of dress very flatly blandly lots of just big browns of cloth. Yes. And then just temporary tattoos. So there's that ah the whistling though. I want to talk about the actual whistle speak heard in the episode was performed by a professional whistler named Molly Lewis. She was interviewed for the website grandlife dot.com by Elise Singer, who asked her, how did you become interested in music? And how did your career evolve?
00:16:25
Speaker
Um, let's see, she says, I always loved music, especially movies, soundtracks as a kid, but I never thought I was a musician. I grew up playing piano and was good at whistling, but that didn't seem like a viable career. I saw a documentary called pucker up about a whistling competition that used to be held in North Carolina. I realized then there were other whistlers out there and I was as good as these whistling champions.
00:16:44
Speaker
It was then I knew I had a talent. I moved to LA and started slowly getting gigs as a whistler. I really credit LA with this because it's such a creative atmosphere that whistlers are actually needed. Sometimes I'll get an email that says, urgent whistling needed. i I've done things for Star Trek and movies and video game soundtracks and all kinds of whistling endeavors. It's kind of snowballed in a strange way and has been really fun. And she even whistled on the Barbie soundtrack.
00:17:11
Speaker
How fun is that, that she's like, when people are like, so what do you do? She goes, I'm a professional whistler. And they're like, ha ha ha, but what do you really do? I really do that. I really get paid, like, I pay my bills, full-time income from whistling. I whistle a lot and I'm really good at it.
00:17:28
Speaker
She's like, this blouse whistling, that couch you're sitting on, whistling. This car, whistling. This coffee in my hand, whistling. No one will believe her. No one will ever believe Molly Lewis. That's right. She's going to have to give cover. They're going to be like, she's a spy. Because that that cover story just it can't check out. So she's got to have something else going on. All right, now it's time for the grades. We'll start with great scenes, Shreese.
00:17:55
Speaker
I have like two but they're they're almost the same scene and it was the scene inside of the tower where Tilly is comforting Rava. I just really loved like those two scenes, like the first where where Rava starts crying and says, wait a minute, I don't want to die. I just wanted to make my dad proud. And now that I'm here, I realize I made a huge mistake and I can't get out. Like I thought that was such a poignant moment because you never see that from really devout people who are sacrificing themselves on TV or movies, right? They're just like, they're really devout. They set themselves on fire and they're happy about it or whatever. But this person was like, wait a minute. who Whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought I wanted this until this very moment. Because even when she first got there, she was reading the poetry and she was all, you know,
00:18:35
Speaker
And so I really just loved, um to your point, Tilly's mothering or nurturing or mentoring and just calming her and soothing her because Tilly was afraid, too. um But I love the way that she was there for Rava. I just I really enjoyed that. What about you? Did you have any great scenes? I had one. I can't believe I'm saying this because there is a part of it that really bothered me, but I'm putting the race.
00:18:58
Speaker
with Tilly is a body emotion remains to keep herself running. I don't know. It's so silly at the end though, where they get stopped. And like now you have to carry water bowls as temptation and and i only had to carry it 10 feet. So that was nice. I thought they had a whole other leg of the race. I was like, Oh, here we go. But no, they really had to just carry it to the people standing. Yeah.
00:19:21
Speaker
But it's like a video game and then and then like again this was all it's when Molly Lewis says that she's whistled on video games I'm like this is both Star Trek in a video game this episode is a lot of that ah and I don't know but I still really appreciated it because Then Tilly does the Star Trek thing and she gives half of her water to Rob to help help them finish because they know that she knows that they really want to ah participate in win this and or I don't think it's a better of winning a race, I guess. It's just like if you could finish it, you know, go on. I will say something about this scene. Well, no, you continue. And then I have something to say. No, I was
Race Scene Comparisons
00:20:00
Speaker
it. I just decided I didn't think I was going to like the sequence. um I thought it was pretty well directed because, you know, you know, they're running in the same. Yeah, like 60 feet basically. And it looked OK. It looked great to me. It looked like a whole trail.
00:20:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of the background was like, Oh, I didn't know I have to run. And so you got a lot of people who don't look like the children. But I thought it worked. I thought it was fine. It was a nice ah bit of kinetic energy and seeing Tilly do it and being really into it. I was very surprised, very, very surprised that Burnham was so winded. And that Right? Because she's always fighting people and not losing her breath. And she's always jumping off a cliff and she's just good to go. And she see they obviously took that little piece of rice or whatever that was expanding in their stomachs or making them sick. Yeah, they took that hydration cube.
00:20:51
Speaker
You know, Kirk would have cheated. He just would have, you know, McCoy would have just like snipped him as they were running on the trail so that they could finish the race. And this is the stuff I'm like, stop being so noble, 21st century Star Trek. Yeah, you you have a goal. Win the race.
00:21:09
Speaker
Sounds like Balana. She's always teasing Harry too about that. Stop being so Starfleet. yeah um So yeah, the race was was great. I also was like, ah, this race is gonna be so stupid. I'm gonna hate it. I actually did not hate it at all. It seemed legit. The trail seemed real. The bowls along the road were just like so cleverly done. You just see people collapsing and drinking. I'm like, this actually makes like this all makes sense. It makes sense. And it looks like a real thing. And I thought the race was going to be I don't know what. I thought it was just going to be really stupid. But I was like, no, they just have to run. All they have to do is run, but run without taking a drink of water when you're really thirsty. And I was like, OK, that is such a simple concept. That's not there's no crazy alien things going on here. But that's not what I want to say about the scene. What I want to say is this reminded me of Spartan racing. And I used to do Spartan races back in the day.
00:21:53
Speaker
And I remember this one race I did where ah it was my second Spartan race. My first race, I went with a couple of friends and it was super fun. The second race, which I was not going to do because I just want to do one in life to say I have done one. That was, that was my, my huge goal. But at that first race, a couple of my friends were like, no, we got to do a second one because we have to like compare and contrast and see how much we've grown. And growth is like a trigger word for me. So I was like, now I have to do it. Right. So I signed up for the second race. And when I get there, no one else shows up.
00:22:22
Speaker
Everyone's gone. None of my friends show up. The other racers are there, but none of my friends show up. So I am the only one. Thank you. I am the only one. And we were running in Dodger Stadium. I'm the only one of my party at Dodger Stadium. I'm calling everybody and texting everybody, hey, I'm here. Hey, I'm the parking lot. They're like, oh, yeah, I didn't come. Oh, yeah, I'm out of town. Oh, yeah, I didn't feel like coming today. And I'm like, what the heck, dude? So I'm sitting there like, should I even do this race? This race I didn't want to do, but I was talked into. Or should I like just go home? But I'm sitting in the parking lot in my running gear like next to the entrance.
00:22:51
Speaker
So I'm like, seriously, you can't go home. You're already here. Just freaking do the race. So I do the race. And because it's at Dodger Stadium, the previous race was at a lake. So it was like muddy and like trees and like lots of nature stuff. But this was at Dodger Stadium. So what was it? It was stairs. It was just hours of running up and down stairs. And then every once in a while you have to carry something really heavy up the stairs.
00:23:13
Speaker
or here's something really heavy down the stairs. And I mean, talk about wanting to kill someone. So anyways, so I'm doing this race up and downstairs, up and downstairs. The very end of the race happens on the field and you have to like do a couple of box jumps, jump over a couple of walls that are pretty low. um Do like some monkey bars and then jump over the fire. That's it.
00:23:32
Speaker
So I'm doing the box jumps. It's like the third to last. A real fire. Oh, it's a real fire. It's a real fire. But the real fire is like two feet high. It's very low. But the cameraman is also low. So they take a picture of you. That's at the finish line. They take a picture of you jumping over the fire. And with the angle, it looks like it's like this 15-foot fire that you're like crawling through. But it's really half the size of a campfire. But anyways, so I'm like three three little things before the the fire finale. And I'm doing these box jumps. And I twist my ankle.
00:24:02
Speaker
And it's really painful. And so they have little golf carts going around, like picking up people who get injured, because this is a Spartan race thing. And they drive them to the front and get give them medical attention or whatever. And so somebody was like, oh, do you want me to call the little golf cart? And I was like, no, because if you call a little golf cart,
00:24:17
Speaker
you don't finish the race and you don't get the little metal at the end. And I could see the finish line from where I was sitting in pain and paid just like Rava. And I was like, there is no I came all the way out here. I did this whole stupid thing by myself. I ran three thousand steps. Like I was like, there's no way I'm going to sit here, stare at that finish line and walk away without my metal. So I hopped over to the next thing and I jumped over the wall and landed on one foot and I climbed the rope and I landed on one foot and I did the monkey bars and I landed on one foot. I was like, I am not.
00:24:47
Speaker
I only have three things left like I am not leaving without the freaking metal when I got this close and then I jumped over the fire with one foot and got my metal and I never did another Spartan race and that is the end so all that to say is when I saw Rob at the end and just looking so upset I was like really emotionally moved when Tilly poured water into her bowl because I was like you're at the you can literally see the finish line and you can't fit like this is This is worse than if you would have quit at any other time in this race. yeah Any other time would have been better. yeah You would have been like, oh, well, didn't make it. Oh, well, I was the first person. I drank water as soon as they gave me the little dehydration pellet. Oh, well, maybe next time. You know what I mean? But like to see the finish line, like you could touch the finish line and you just can't finish. To me, mentally, it's like, yeah. i was I was very moved at the scene. I was like, I'm glad she helped her finish until I found out the reward was sudden death. That was unfortunate.
00:25:38
Speaker
They also seem like the only person in their entire group who could actually do any physical activity anyway. It like yeah forty years was so strange that yeah their father was like, you're too young to do this. But also, aren't you desperate for rain? what are what You have no better option. Well, this is before we knew that the reward was becoming the rain or whatever. I'm just saying in universe, the logic of it. You know what I'm saying? is like there are there There wouldn't have been a sacrifice.
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah. ah So i what's more important? Anyway, ah yeah, that's ah that's an amazing story. These are still your friends, the ones who ditched you. ah Well, they're not, but that's not why.
00:26:25
Speaker
They're not because time has passed and we've all moved on, but um yeah, that was that was super, like just the thought of being at the end and just not finishing is so painful. And I'm really glad that they got to finish and they finished like arm in arm. And I was really surprised that they only had to walk 10 more feet. I was like, oh, like I thought they were gonna have to run a whole nother mile. Cause it seemed like that's what this race is about. Like make it as difficult as freaking possible. right um But yeah, i I did like that. And then when it was like, okay, our sacrifice will be rewarded. I was like, wait,
00:26:53
Speaker
This is not you have to do the horrible race to end up dying. This there's like no benefits of this. There's no happy point to this entire thing, except for I guess other people get rain, hopefully, but they had even more money. You might have said instead of holding a bowl is you have to cross the lake.
00:27:11
Speaker
You know what I mean? You literally walk through water and you can't drink the water. And you feel it on your skin. Yeah, exactly. And it's so cool and refreshing. Yeah. But that's not criticism of the episode, but I just really want to applaud you for pulling a gold medal performance there in the absence of former friends. That's a big story. yeah And also never to do the race again.
00:27:34
Speaker
You have your picture jumping over fire. What else do you need? I do have my picture jumping over fire. That is absolutely true. And I have something I will never forget. That's right. That's why I will never do another Spartan race because I will never forget how bad that was. And even I don't even I haven't even been to Dr. Stadium since then. Like I don't even want to see a stare ever again in my life. All ramps for you from now on. Seriously. All right. Best trek tropes.
00:28:03
Speaker
I like blend, you have three, I have two. I like blending with the pre-org society. That's a trek trope that I just like. I just like it when they're like, okay, let's dress like the locals or let's get the same prosthetics or whatever. I always like it because it's like the characters we know and love, but they have to be somebody else, but they still have to be themselves. And I like the layers of that of like, be your same character, but be different.
00:28:24
Speaker
See, I like that, too, but I just don't think they did that. You know, I think Burnham and Tilly were both just really was no less Tilly. She was like, I'm where she being the gods, maybe. And and berms, you know, being like, oh, that's so sweet. You figured out how to tie your shoes. That's technology. You know, that kind of shit that they were doing the whole time was they were no their their personalities did not change at all. You know, You're right, but I wrote this before they beamed down to the planet. So I thought, I was like excited. So that's what I wrote. I was like, oh, I like this one. I like the blending. No, no, I agree. Burnham's fascination with them and all that was great. You would have liked to have seen it mirrored by Tilly. Tilly's much more about, that's great. You should come teach at Surfleet Academy because none of us know that stuff.
00:29:13
Speaker
yeah hu And then Rava says, aren't you a teacher until he's like, yeah, I just don't really know anything yeah no is the problem. But they, they had a, they had a vacancy, you know, I had nothing better to do. So, you know, start the academy has been closed for a thousand years and, uh,
00:29:31
Speaker
But for some reason we still have Starfleet, so I don't know how that's... None of the names have changed yet. How are we getting nuked? at Anyways, doesn't matter who. So um then the other Trek trope I put is if we don't figure this out, two people we care about are going to die.
00:29:46
Speaker
part of me was like, again, I feel like this is every week. Sometimes I'm like, is this best trope or worst trope? Depends. But I think I actually like it when it's like, if we don't figure this out, two people we care about are going to die. I think I like it because it adds stakes that are so much more tangible to me. So something for Discovery, every episode, it's like, if we don't do this, the whole planet's going to die. If we don't do this, the whole universe is going to die. And it's hard to conceive of that. But when it's like, if we don't figure this out, Tilly and Rava are going to die. That felt so much more emotional to me, then like everyone on this planet is going to die, which is super sad. But it's just like there's so many people that I don't have a and name with a face, I guess. um So that's why I put as best trope is like, you know, making us the making the stakes, still life or death, but making them smaller and more intimate so that I can actually connect to those stakes, because I think whole world is going to end. You can't pull that every time and and still feel something about it. I don't know. So mine were speaking to dead relatives via the holodeck.
00:30:42
Speaker
I didn't actually really care for the Culber Abuela scene that much. I liked the trope though of using the holodeck. We've seen Wesley k Crusher talk to his dad, Dada's talk to Dr. Soon. Yeah. Like they get a lot, you know, a lot of dad stuff, but basically you can talk to Stephen Hawking or you can talk to your great, great, great grandmother. You know what I mean? like The holodeck allows many things. Yeah, exactly.
00:31:09
Speaker
ye Uh, let's see. And then I like subcutaneous communicators. I feel like they should be more standard. And I like the retinal tricorder. That was cool. That was my third best. That was cool. There was a Reddit comment I read and I, I'm giving credit to people who find the thread in the Star Trek discovery review thread.
Clever Puns and Technology
00:31:29
Speaker
Sorry. I don't have the commenters name, but they said that it's an unforgivable crime. Basically that they did not immediately call the retinal tricorders I quarters.
00:31:39
Speaker
And I completely agree. that is That was money on the table. It was. And ah you know who should have thought of it? It's Tilly. Yes. Because she smells silly and fun. So as soon as Rainer was like, oh, we've got a retinal tricorder, Tilly should have been like, oh, like an eye-corder.
00:31:56
Speaker
And then everybody would have been like, I quarter. That's so clever. We love Tilly. That was a missed opportunity. I agree. But like, to your point, the one thing I did think in that scene where she was like, you've got to help me and all that stuff was that in the end, he just like lifted the rug and then like pulled a latch and then opened the doors. And I thought, why couldn't your retinal scanner see that? And then I thought, well, maybe it doesn't clearly look like a latch under the rug. Maybe it looks so different with the retinal tricorder that It could just, because the whole thing is a machine, right? The entire tower is a machine. So I'm like, maybe everything she's scanning all looks like latches and buttons and not, you know what I mean? But I just thought like, ah if you just pull up the carpet and then you could see like a handle, I feel like that's something that you would see with the tricorder also.
00:32:44
Speaker
But I don't know. I mean, that whole scene is she was Burnham is such a shoot first punch first character that she's the captain. She doesn't need to talk him out of anything. She could just punch him. And also the technology so advanced that just just beam her in behind him, which I guess they do. But he's like how did but he sees her beam in. Yeah.
00:33:07
Speaker
So they could have just done it so that she, he doesn't see her like they could have sidestepped the whole like tearing down of the belief system. They could have hyposprayed him and give him temporary amnesia. So then they could have beamed him out. If they could beam, burn them in, then they could have beamed him out. And that's one thing that you don't have. That's like one little bit of contamination. That's better than the larger, but we're going to talk about that in a second. All right. Worst Trek tropes.
00:33:33
Speaker
An unusual energy field surrounds the tower. Nothing's working, Captain. Something's scrambling my so my signal. Come on. but they like the This-year-old denobulin technology is foiling the Discovery's 30th, 32nd, 800th century technology. I don't buy it. It's annoying. It's dumb. Well, but that's what we've been doing all season, is every piece of technology they run into is formidable.
00:33:59
Speaker
I know it's like 800 years old, right? Do you remember the planet where the eyeballs were shooting at them? It's like every piece of technology is like, it stands a test of time, except for apparently on this planet where it was also causing toxins and they were falling apart. But even as they're falling apart, they're still like formidable. Yeah, that was also mine. It's malfunctioning as what makes it implacable or impenetrable. Yeah, impenetrable. Yeah, I also put that, like you can't beam in for some reason. Like that's a worst trek trope for me.
00:34:29
Speaker
Or scan. Or scan. So um my friend really got me into the Orville, and which is so much fun. And in that show, I haven't seen the last few seasons, but at least the first few seasons, they don't have um they don't transport, they always use shuttles. And that like keeps their stories very tight because When they need to rescue a colony of people that are going to collapse, and anddada they have to physically take shuttles, put people on the shuttle, take the shuttle back to the ship, send the shuttle back, and that adds real drama and urgency. But when you can just transport everybody at once, that takes away the urgency, right? So sometimes in some ways, some of the technology that Trek has can limit storytelling in that way, because you're like, why don't you just beam everybody up? Why don't you just do this? Why don't you just do that? like Their technology makes things really easy.
Technology vs Storytelling Tension
00:35:14
Speaker
So that's to me why they always come up with these really BS reasons for why
00:35:18
Speaker
We just can't use our very simple technology. We just can't. We just can't do it. And I just think that that's dumb. Well, also it pulls away from the power of the really cool season arc idea, which is that this is a mystery with the Clue Trail, and it's a puzzle. And so there's no puzzling in this entire episode. There are puzzles at the beginning in the very first scene, and then Kovac gives them the answer. So it's just like there's no real puzzling it out or mysteries time spent on it it's literally just rushing from bit to bit of kind of false jeopardy and that just kind of like eats away at this feeling of wow you actually came up with a really cool premise that you could that these this thousand-year-old mystery could still linger even in the face of all the superior technology and all that stuff
00:36:12
Speaker
Lots of things it could do. Burnham and Tilly and a lot of the Discovery crew are probably better positioned to solve certain mysteries because they're closer to the time period that these clues were set down. You know what I mean? like They'd have more of a cultural awareness of certain elements versus now far in the future. And maybe that would be a reason why Discovery is invaluable here. It's like, well,
00:36:35
Speaker
This just happened like for you five years ago. You know what I mean? Like this, whatever, but like none of those details get put in. So, so it just, I think it just, it's a story conceived from the 50,000 foot view instead of the on the ground view. And I think that's, this is a case where then teching the tech or whatever is a problem. It really suffers. Uh, what other worst trick tropes do you have?
00:36:57
Speaker
I have prime directive, shmime directive. Yes. Can we hold that for just the very end? Yeah. Cause I think it's going to take a little bit longer for us to discuss that. So yeah, no, that's all I have. I just have that phrase and then I have, uh, the towers are fought are failing. And if we don't fix this one, then everyone on the planet dies. So this is kind of the inverse of my best trope of where it's like the jeopardy is for people I know and care about. And the worst trope is like the jeopardy is for like the nameless faceless masses that I can't possibly like have an emotional connection to.
00:37:27
Speaker
Right, it's not enough that we have to get the clue and Tilly could die and this native that we befriended is in jeopardy. It's gotta be, oh, nope, everyone else will die too. um Yeah, that's a good one. and That's like, ah I don't know if that's ah just a Discovery Troop, but I feel like that's something that the newer shows tend to do because they're not quite committed or comfortable or confident in their own storytelling. It's like, uh, this has personal stakes, but just in case you're not into that, here's the global stakes. Yeah, well, I don't know. I'm thinking Star Trek The Next Generation and a lot of the episodes, at least in the first two or three seasons,
00:38:08
Speaker
a lot of the episodes were always an entire planet or an entire colony is going to die if we don't get them this lifesaving medicine, this lifesaving vaccine, lifesaving antitoxin, this lifesaving, you know, and it's and that's almost always the B plot because that's nothing to do with what's going on the ship. But it's like there's something keeping the ship from moving. But the ship has to move because this colony, planet, whatever is going to all die if we don't get this medicine to them. So I feel like it's not Yeah, but then they have stuff like Worf's discomendation and Kalar and all that stuff like that's not the stakes are not necessarily global. It's it's intergalactic intrigue adjacent, but it's not like the stakes of the universe kind of thing. um Troy is hooking up with the salesman who's negotiating for a wormhole. But sometimes the stakes are much smaller. um I guess just the general video game logic of it I already touched on, ah the Nobulan scientists happened, the chamber that they constructed actually happens to be perfect for ritualistic murder inside of it. You know, it it doesn't look technological. It looks ritualistic. It looks like a religious chamber more than it does.
00:39:19
Speaker
It's got stones. There's no like visible wires or yeah metal, but it's still built of tritanium and whatever. And then this is a discovery trope. Every character, a lot of the characters are so introverted or anxious that they preface a lot of statements with, uh, so Tilly does it twice. Uh, we could really use you at the Starfleet Academy. The fact that she says the Starfleet Academy.
00:39:43
Speaker
ah We came to worship at the high summit and then Tal does it three times. I did a historical regression. ah You really need to rebuild the motherboard. ah Do you see a small red chip? These are things that just like, I guess I have aural sensitivity, but also That's five times in an episode where you just have this ah ah ah in an hour, it makes your character sound dumb. It really is strange. I know they're trying to convey our audience confident. Yeah, our audience is full of anxious millennials who have anxiety disorder.
00:40:19
Speaker
We would like to have characters who reflect that, I guess. I don't know. I'm an anxious millennial, too, but I don't want to watch a Starfleet officer ah their way through life. you Not everyone has patience for that. What's that? Watch yourself on the show is what you're saying. I don't talk like that. And if I do, I don't.
00:40:40
Speaker
keep talking. and so I wait until I'm confident again. I don't just persevere in the face, especially if something's mission critical and I'm wasting time trying to get over my own nerves. you're going to they Time is of the essence. life life so Lives are in jeopardy. I don't know. Be a little more confident, Discovery officers. What do you have to lose? That's like my main that's my main complaint against Tilly and Adira for the whole show, though I really like Tilly and I want to like Adira. I really want to like Adira, but Adira does it a thousand times more and I guess it's because they are a lot younger, so they're trying to portray not just
00:41:17
Speaker
I'm not confident, but also I'm 20 or whatever. Like i'm I'm still I'm very new to all of this. And, you know, um and I'm the every single one of tall storylines is starts out as a bumbling ball of nerves. And then someone older tells them, you're good, you're doing the right thing, be confident. And then they get it together and they're finally confident. That's like literally anytime tall has more than one scene in an episode. That's what winds up being their storyline. yeah And it's it's it's like I want them to be
00:41:53
Speaker
And you're right, like you don't talk like that. And I don't talk like that. And there's plenty of times in life where I am not confident about, well, plenty is maybe, okay, but there's times in life when I'm not super confident about what I'm saying. But if I I'm gonna say, I'm even going to say that confidently. I'm gonna say, I have no idea. I have no idea how that works. I'm not gonna say, ah,
00:42:12
Speaker
Well, well, gee gee whiz there. Let me think like I'm not gonna stumble. I'm just gonna say I have no idea. Or this is way beyond me. I have no idea what I should do here. I'm still gonna say that I am not sure about things in a confident way. And I'm not trying to necessarily change this character. But that is not endearing to me. And it also reminds me of Reginald Barclay, right? Because that was their anxious ball officer in Star Trek next generation. And he always was bumbling all he like he could never see a sentence just regularly, he always had to be like, um, well, Lieutenant, well, I sort of because they're trying to get across this anxiety and this, um you know, lack of confidence and stuff. And that's why it was really hard to watch Reginald Barclay scenes.
00:42:58
Speaker
Even Barkley would have little thin veils of, he's an engineer. So at least about an engineering stuff, he's, he sounds pretty confident and in from time to time. I think as he got later, he was even more of a caricature, but I think there was just.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost like a parody of a person, not a real person. Right. And I think it's a problem. It's very distancing, I think. And for those who identify with this character, I apologize if what I said sounds offensive. I just think that it's so consistent. It's the same scenes. There's no growth. For Eredir every time. It's very strange. And the thing is, just Adira, just like Tilly, just like Barclay, they're geniuses. Like they have no reason to be not confident. Well, hold on about Tilly. We have new evidence on Tilly. Well, I didn't say anything about her professorial skills, but we have seen her MacGyver some stuff on the show. So they are like very, all three of them are very competent at what they're doing, even if they don't appear confident about what they're doing ever.
00:44:04
Speaker
So then it's a manager's problem because then they're not being put in their they're not being utilized in their most successful ways. That's an interesting take. Ensign Tal should have no contact with people since they have terrible people skills. ah can ah ah Can't speak in public as terrible public speaking skills. Not willing to take any instructions or classes to improve on that because it's been three seasons and never got better. So just banish to a lab that they never have to interface with anyone. is silly Are they going to be in Star Fleet Academy? Do you know?
00:44:37
Speaker
I'm sure every Discovery character is going to pop up at some point, but not currently have been mentioned. I guess because Adir is already an instant, right? So, it no longer needs the Academy. Right. Oh, you mean like, are they going to be like a regular cadet? No, no no no yeah no, no, no. They would come back, I think, to visit Tilly or drop in as like a special guest for a career day or something. I don't know. but I hope they do a career day. Do a career day. Please have a career day. They're not going to do enough episodes to do silly shit. It's going to be 10 episodes of
00:45:09
Speaker
like a very vague, maybe it like a lab situation, then a lot of like teen romance sex, and then some stupid overarching threat to the Earth's Federation. Do you think it's going to be episodic? No, it's going to be serialized Gossip Girl shit soap opera. It's not going to be. i'm guessing You're not going to watch it. Is that is that what you're saying?
00:45:30
Speaker
Well, I have to at least check in on it. It's got Star Trek on it. I don't know if they're going to. I don't know if a lot of people are going to watch it. I think the fact that it's on Paramount Plus actually hurts what they're going for. That's why dumped on. It should be dumped on Netflix so that it can live. It can live next to a lean prime and all the and all the stuff that The kids actually watch. It can be linked to that. The fact that it's going to be on their parents Paramount Plus subscription. Yeah. The people they want to watch it are not going to be watching it. And they should put it on Netflix and Prime as well as Paramount, at least till people get hooked on, you know, a season or two. Yeah. That's really interesting. So I'm with you that teeny, the high school shows tend to be very teeny bopper oriented with the exception of Veronica Mars. That show was not made for kids. That was teenagers. I was like, I didn't know I had a word. I didn't know you were a fellow of Veronica Morris. Oh, my goodness. That show is not for kids. I was like, how is this high school? How are you in high school? How are you all in doing these crazy things? But usually it's very it's not like that. Usually it's very much like I'm too. ah Once you hit like, I don't know, once you hit like 17, you just can't watch those shows anymore. Yeah. Well, I know plenty of people who watch them into their well into their 20s. So so it will have an audience. ah Let's do it.
00:46:46
Speaker
Or it's trek tropes. The prime directive is so intense that they can't save a person who's dying right in front of them. Come on. You can do it discreetly to save that person's life. Now it worked out. The story did. The story worked great with what they wound up doing. I would have probably pitched, let's just not have them say we're not going to save this person's life because of the prime directive.
00:47:09
Speaker
I think you just cut that and you let the people come like, where is her bag? She had her stuff. And then the you don't do the beat of if I had a Sonic, whatever, or you say that line and then they just come in with the bowls and do it. You don't get into this whole like, well, the prime directive is so intense, we have to let this person die. That's a bad look. Also, if it's a Denobula, this is the thing why I think they get it wrong.
00:47:31
Speaker
If a denobulin installed some weather stations on a primitive planet in order to keep them alive, that means the Federation broke the Prime Directive. And so you're letting by letting these weather stations fail and wipe them out. Well, Federation let those weather stations fail. So that's a moral crime on the part of the Federation. That is not ah that is not the Prime Directive anymore.
00:47:55
Speaker
Well, yeah, the Denobleons who built it, they broke the Prime Directive by building it because they interfered with the pre-warp society. That's right. So the Prime Directive has been broken. It hasn't broken. Like this planet would not exist so had they not done that. And they don't say anything about that. They're just like, oh, I guess he did it for and humanitarian reasons, just being super nice, you know, because they get it because they had store. OK, but you're not saying like, wow, what he did was totally wrong. But now that he's done it, now we're committed.
00:48:23
Speaker
Now we as Starfleet are committed to this course of action forevermore because he did this. That is 100% correct. Now them teaching them how to use it would make a little, like fix it, would make a little more sense if we had any notion that these people understood what electricity was. Seriously, they don't even have freaking, did they even have lamps? Weren't they walking in the dark? Yeah, they have torches and fire pits. So it's bizarre. I thought the same thing. I was like, how are you going to teach them to fix it when they don't have any, they're not just pre-warp. They're like pre-industrial. They're like pre everything because they don't even have water.
00:48:58
Speaker
So you're telling me that the 31st century, they can't figure out how to how a seed a planet with water so that it's not all arid? If it's a class M planet that was once capable of supporting life, I have to believe their terraforming skills in the 31st century is actually very easy for them to do. They could have fixed it where the weather stations are not needed at all since they're already involved. And it's sort um Burnham has great leeway once she's on the ground in the situation.
00:49:27
Speaker
this kind of weird ah way of the Prime Directive to make them do bad like morally, questionably wrong things is a kind of a sick view of the Prime Directive for Starfleet. It's kind of like a weird post-modern critique of it by saying, this is what it means, non-interference, you're not even going to help. But I think it just makes the show and the characters look bad. There's no real justification for it, because as you said, the Federation is involved.
00:49:56
Speaker
And Burnham being like, this happens our responsibility is not to upholding the prime directive once it's been broken. It's by doing the least amount of damage once the contaminations happened. And you think that by letting all these people die, who had an extra 800 years of evolution that they wouldn't have had, had we not intervened, you think just letting them go now is the right thing to do, that they have their chance? No.
00:50:22
Speaker
and They kind of left a dangling story thread here, which is the ending that Tilly and Burnham resolved to is that the Denobian scientist, the lesson that they were trying to teach, he was trying to teach was that this thing that the progenitors did is very powerful, like a god.
00:50:41
Speaker
This was an opportunity to bring that more directly into the story of was the synovian scientist playing God to teach a lesson or was he playing God because he had a taste of being a God and he was like, I'm going to, you know what I mean? Like there was no other critique. There was no exploration of what that message was.
00:50:59
Speaker
the dirtier story is this Denobian scientist played God on this planet and now it's up to Burnham and company to fix it to to make them not worship this guy. That would have been another angle in the original series. It's like some future God comes down and takes becomes God claims their God, you know, and You have to question the motivations of why the scientist did it at all. And it can't just be because he left a lesson about the progenitor's technology. Do you see how that's like a weird disconnect? Yeah, but I think, in my mind, he made these towers of his own accord for his own reasons, and then later on discovered the progenitor's tech and then planted it. So then how does the lesson that that Burnham and Tilly arrive on, keeping in mind that Tilly is a bad teacher, so how would she be able to do it? We can't be sure that her lesson is correct.
00:51:51
Speaker
She doesn't know what she's doing from class to class. Yeah. But we can't be sure that any of their lessons are correct because all the lessons are so vague and up for interpretation. That's right. That's right. Here's my thing. So there's this episode in season seven of ah Star Trek The Next Generation where we meet Worf's half brother or his yeah adopted brother for the first time ever. Suddenly there's a brother and he's on this planet and he calls for aid and Starfleet comes and the atmosphere is being dissolved on this planet. So everyone on the planet is going to die.
00:52:19
Speaker
And Picard's like, I mean, we could save them, but we can't because Prime Directive. So he goes, well, the the best thing we can do is just honor their lives by staring at them through the view screen while their atmosphere disappears. And that's what they do. They just stare at that this view screen, the atmosphere disappears, everyone on the planet dies, and they go, well, there was our moment of silence.
00:52:36
Speaker
which was so unnecessary and ridiculous. like I just think this was everything about this was ridiculous. um But anyways, so that's that. And then we find out that Worf's brother secretly took one little like colony of people from this planet and is hiding them on the holodeck. And now they're forced to find a new M-Class planet. Well, one of those aliens escapes the holodeck accidentally, discovers technology and all this stuff, similar to this episode. And then it's like, OK, well, what are you going to do with this knowledge? You could tell your people. You could not tell your people. You could pretend like you don't know.
00:53:04
Speaker
And that ah alien decides to to kill themselves because that pressure, like that everything they knew was wrong. And now they have a secret that they can't tell anybody. like Or if they tell people, everyone will think they'll create they're crazy and they will now be like left out of their community. They won't ever fit in again. Just all of that no longer belonging to what you thought was your people or whatever.
00:53:26
Speaker
he just decided to to die rather than face that. And so I i felt like this was almost like a do over of that, where they're like, oh, but we're gonna save them this time, and they're gonna just accept technology exists.
00:53:39
Speaker
And we're all gonna be like, yep, this is cool. Because we don't see, I forgot the guy's name, but we don't see this this um guy on the plate like in the in the temple, we don't see him be like, what is technology? What does that word even mean? Or like, what do you mean this is technology? Or like, how am I supposed to, he does say, you know I think this is gonna, the sacrifices is what brings brings us together. And she's like, oh, but other things can bring you together. So they do mention something about their the cultural impact, but he's not just like,
00:54:06
Speaker
How are you not a God? Like, I don't understand. Like, there's I just want. Yes. He just accepted everything too easily. And then we don't see the impact of it on the rest of the people. And we don't see clearly we're assuming he does not turn around and kill himself because now he knows about technology. I mean, an rp g episode he starts having like a religious fervor moment where he has like a little breakdown and he starts praying really hard because he can't accept what's going on, and which is reasonable. That's a reasonable reaction. Yeah, that scene was sort of drifting into who watches the Watchers territory, where Picard brings the one on board to explain the situation because Picard's being worshipped as God.
00:54:40
Speaker
and But then it's not as it's not as interesting. But my main thing about this being the worst Trek trope is, I think i've mentioned we've mentioned this, you and I even, on our episodes of like, usually when the Prime Directive comes up and it's brought up, it's usually the point of the story. And here I feel like it's not. Here it is, the version that they think the Prime Directive tends to be, which is that it's just a an excuse to not do something. But the Prime Directive also does compel affirmative actions. It's not just a,
00:55:07
Speaker
It doesn't forbid you, it also compels you to correct contamination.
Prime Directive Misinterpretations
00:55:13
Speaker
What is the best course of action for this ah for this group of people? And who are we to decide is now a question that's been taken away because we interceded. And it's kind of it's just kind of galling. It's also kind of silly that this water tower is ah not actually where the clue is, it's there are like a bunch of other water towers on the planet. And so we don't get that until the end. And it seems like wouldn't, from a contamination standpoint, be that it would have been better to have explored the other the abandoned ones ah ah before going to the ones where there are the living people. You know what I mean? Like, do you see how like, just logically,
00:55:53
Speaker
I guess they didn't know about the other towers because they weren't active, right? That's why they only- Okay, I'm saying, but they went to find the clue. But they didn't know that there were other towers until Tilly was inside the tower. How would they have not known? There were other towers on the planet though. So that's my question. How did they not know? Or did they not know because I feel like, because one thing is like, oh, they went to where there was like the little patch of green and there was energy signatures.
00:56:18
Speaker
But it so they just and the planet yes if you scan the planet, you'll you're going to get this tritanium, you know, the metal that's inside of this tower. And you're going to be like, well, that's weird because this planet doesn't have that metal. So why is there some? And then they would have been like, boop, boop, boop. There's five of them. So they would have seen that.
00:56:33
Speaker
Yeah, so this is just you. They have written themselves into a situation that caused them to make colossally bad decisions and and are and are effectively wrong ones. Yes, they did save the day. That's ah absolutely true. I don't know. Usually in a writer's room, if you pitch something that breaks the idea, you have to fix it. You have to then pitch. But we're not in a writer's room. Cherise for a podcast. And all we can point out are the inconsistencies and how they fall into the worst trek tropes that causes a worst trek trope that actually makes the characters in the show look bad. So I think the moral ugliness that they intentionally wrote into the show is a worst trek trope. Just like that episode, that TNG g episode, I'm pretty sure when Kristen and I, if we get around to it, if we don't just kill it now, that's a kill because that is stupid.
00:57:24
Speaker
It was stupid when Picard just stands there being like... And it's still not Picard. That's the rule. We obey the rules. Picard would have saved everybody and then been like, oh well, we'll just deal with the consequences, which is exactly what Michael did. Right? She was like, I'll just fill out the paperwork. It's fine.
00:57:39
Speaker
like we do this every week i'll just fill out the form so it's just a bunch of false jeopardy and it but it start it's a false jeopardy that gets kind of brushed aside you know like how they do it and all the other star treks but it has to have meaning like again the affirmative action okay there's the contamination what are we going to do to fix this contamination oh well we have to fix this water tower oh well We're not going to be able to stick around in this water tower because it was breaking down has now created this entirely predatory religion. So now we've got to kind of correct that as well, because this is kind of poison their development if their entire lives are now situated around. worshipping these gods to appease them. They're basically worshipping a broken machine that's poisoning them, that's killing them, I mean. So you've got to fix all that. You can't just say, oh, we should let the poison run its course and wipe them out, which is how they land. They land going like we got to let the poison run its course. Yeah, who are we? i See, know now I'm bothered by something you said earlier, which was
00:58:40
Speaker
Why didn't they just use their advanced technology to change the atmosphere on the planet? Now I'm irritated that they didn't do that, because yes, it's an ambulance scientist, something, something had great skills. But they're like, from the future. Certainly, we've done this before. And That Denavian scientist who already invented this 800 years ago, that technology that was brand new then and so novel, is probably something that everyone carries in their pocket now. so You could just like throw a vial, break it, and it changes the whole atmosphere and the whole planet turns green. yeah and Then you won't need to, you won't exactly what you said, you won't need to maintain these water towers at all.
00:59:18
Speaker
at all. You might need to clear up the whole, you know, toxins that they're producing. Like maybe that needs to be something that's somehow walled off or covered in cement or whatever you need to do with that. But I'm sure there's a vial for that too. You throw that down, fix all the soil. But I'm just saying like that would be a better fix than all of this. I'm kind of glad they didn't go that route because that would be a boring story. But now that you say it, I'm like, well, that makes a lot more sense than this. This makes less sense.
00:59:43
Speaker
you spend more time on the emotional aspects of the story, like what's really, going you find a deeper level of story to tell with the the on the ground part of it so that you don't have to spend as much time teching the tech. Also just thematically, actually not thematically culturally. So all these pockets of civilization on this planet were huddled around these stations, right? So what did the whistle speak develop out of?
01:00:11
Speaker
long distance communication between all these towers. Now there's only one tower. So the end of yes, if the water tower fails, they all die. But whistle speak could simply be something that older people only know because the younger people don't need it. So it's like literally a part of their culture has been dying. And by restoring the planet, they actually bring the whistle speak back. It's not some like It's not some thing, some affectation anymore. It's like a real thing, harmony, like the bowls, that sound that the bowls made, that healed people and brought them and brought them into communion. Now they reconnect with each other because maybe that was what was broken, was not being able to whistle speak.
01:00:54
Speaker
Again, I'm just going off of what they gave us, and they didn't pick up the threads on. So I just think using the Prime Directive as a bludgeon to make it less interesting is a real bad trek trope that Discovery, especially, and Strange New Worlds does this, too, ah really indulges in. ah There's a lot of crossover with. Among the Lotus Eaters, this one reminded me of a lot, because and they might have even been the same kind of general costumes for peasant people. ah There is a lot of that where it's a flat peasant culture that the crew kind of becomes a part of. um And it just wasn't all that interesting, but they had a kind kind of very specific religious belief that our main characters interacted with. um And of course, there was a god that was kind of a Starfleet
01:01:46
Speaker
you know, pollutant who was playing the role of a god or in this case a king. So I think i that was a kill episode for us. So I think that was something that was, ah this episode kept reminding me of that episode. And so I think that's where I had a lot of issues where I was very unwell, ungenerous to this one the first couple of times I watched it and I had to kind of work beyond that. I still think the the prime directive though was pretty silly. Anyway, most cosplayable character or moment.
01:02:14
Speaker
I picked Tilly as a denoblean, Buhlen, Denobuhlen. I don't know how to say this name. I picked Tilly. Um, she just looks fun. She just looks fun. She looks like she's having a good time. Except for when she's running, she looks miserable. Who can blame her, but when she was also like half suffocating because of that cube they took in fairness,
01:02:36
Speaker
which was nuts. I was thinking that when they took it, I was just like, what is that? Can you guys do the little time? And I will be using that I quarter. Yes, exactly. Yes. What's, do you have a cosplayable moment from this episode?
01:02:49
Speaker
Well, I just was ranting on how it reminded me of among the lotus eaters and they all just kind of look like that. So I didn't really enjoy that. I'm going to say no, but I think it'll be fun to watch someone dressed as Culber's abuela because you know that someone's going to do that at a con. who so and All right. but Now it's time for the line must be drawn. Yeah. Great lines.
01:03:14
Speaker
So while I did think this was a little unbelievable, I did like the line where ah Burnham says, the rains will come whether or not Rava dies. I promise you, please let them live. I just love how she delivered that line. It was very like, I don't know, it was very Michael Burnham, right? It was just very passionate. So that's what I got. What about you?
01:03:35
Speaker
For the first time, I think, in Trek Mary Kill History, I did not have a great line. That's fair. I wrote down all the time someone went, uh. Which is the opposite of great lines. Exactly. great Great for Discovery, though, because I think they really enjoyed making characters sound like that. So I just thought that Ensign Tall sounded like You know, in The Simpsons, there's that nerdy guy, the calculator. There's a bunch of nerdy characters, but there's one who's in particular sounds like this. Oh, right. The scientists? Not Frank, not not the one who's the Jerry Lewis impression. Like one of the kids, like one of Bart's classmates, I think, is an actual like more of a nerd than Martin. And and he goes, ah, he went that way. And and tall sounds like, ah, I did a whole historical regression of Alemno's weather patterns.
01:04:25
Speaker
Oh, poor Tal. But at least you're on the bridge now. So that's the thing. I guess that's, that's, you know, not by choice, but yeah by choice, but not by choice. Right. like That's professional growth, if not personal growth. That's fair. You know what? I was critical before, but you know what? They wanted to be on the bridge. And Rainer, the the patience of a saint.
01:04:47
Speaker
because in all the previous episodes, he's like, to to to today Junior spit it out. This time he's like, need to take it real slow because we've got a tender person here. yeah ah Would this be a fun hollow novel to play out?
01:05:03
Speaker
I put maybe if there wasn't a heat wave going on right now as we record. Like I felt this episode very deeply watching them be thirsty and hot. And I was just like, I can't even imagine doing this for fun because this is not fun. But if I could do this on the holodeck without all that sensory stuff, because you know, the holodeck is really legit. But if I could do it without actually feeling hot or thirsty, I'd probably do it.
01:05:28
Speaker
But I know that's the point of the race, but like, no, I don't want to be hot and thirsty. I don't want it. I'm not eating the cube. Or, you know, we eat it, but it doesn't actually do anything. um Then yeah, I do it. I put no because, again, I would just seed the planet with life so that we wouldn't have to even beam down there. ah But let me ask you this. If you could talk to family members from the past or historical figures in the past, ask for advice, you know, have a conversation, ask them, of you know, talk to some historical figure about some random topic that they couldn't possibly know. I don't know. This is off the top of my head. Ask Robert Oppenheimer's thoughts on 30 Rock.
01:06:05
Speaker
So would that be something you'd spend holodeck time on? No.
Interacting with Historical Figures through Technology
01:06:11
Speaker
Okay. I would not do that. Would you do that? I think with historical figures I would. Because it it seems like with family figures you need to imbue them with journals or, you know, like things that the computer can extrapolate a personality off of or otherwise you have to kind of do it from scratch. Um, I'm not really, I wouldn't be a fan of replaying events. I'm sure people would use that. That'd be like maybe a good exposure therapy or trauma response of.
01:06:40
Speaker
you be able to replay moments literally on the holodeck. I think that's got therapeutic uses. But in terms of like talking to people I know who are dead or I never knew but I'm related to, not as interesting to me. But like, it might be fun to talk to, I don't know, Abraham Lincoln or I don't know, somewhat some historical figure like just take the entire history and their public comments and see what the computer's personality would be like and all that stuff. It's harder when we don't know the voice and all that stuff. So I'd be like, if Daniel D. Lewis' version of Abraham Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln stuff, let's have a conversation. Or was he more like Abraham Lincoln, the vampire slayer? Right. Which one was he more like? Yeah. Oh, I talked to fake fictional characters. I think I would just play out some episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer if I were if i could use the holodeck.
01:07:28
Speaker
so Right. So then, yeah, you would just you wouldn't really need to talk to all episodes. you Yeah, you
Technology in 'Ready Player One'
01:07:33
Speaker
wouldn't need to talk to. store Have you have you read the book Ready Player One? Because they have that technology in that book. I think they do it in the movie, too. I don't remember. But remember when I said I'm a snob like way back?
01:07:45
Speaker
some I do recall that, yes. That is in the lane of one. That's not for me. that' You've never read. So you're not into i saw the awful Steven Spielberg movie. Yeah. and So the book is not the same, but I read a couple of pages of the book and I'm like, I can't. that There's too many references. ah Well, the book problem the book is a lot of references and that's that's a big part of it. But one of the technologies they have in that world is the ability to play out movies or TV shows. And like, it's like, you play out line for line and you get points as you go along or whatever. So for people who are super, super, super into like your favorite show, it's always like rocking or a picture show. You know, when people watch it, well, then I take it back. Well, then I take it back. No, I don't know. I don't want to be associated with that. Yeah, I don't want to be associated with that. I take it back.
Character Analysis of Rava
01:08:35
Speaker
It's not for me. It's not for me. ah The Anton Caridian Award for best performance.
01:08:41
Speaker
um go first because i I chose, I chose Rava. I liked their perfect kind of like wide eyed youngster who wants to take on the world. It was very, it was very cliche. Sure. But I think they did a great job. Like they, i I was totally convinced. I was like, yes, you seem very young and very like impressionable and I honestly thought, because I watch a lot of crime dramas, in the beginning when the when the group was coming and they heard the whistling, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a trap. This is gonna be like some kind of trick. Like they heard the whistling and the whistling was like, come to us, come and you will get life or whatever it was. And I was like, they're gonna show up and it's gonna like, they're gonna trick them and they're gonna drain their bodies of water. And that's how they get water. And like, I was like, oh, this is gonna be super dark. It wasn't dark at all. So that's, I guess a good thing. um But yeah, I like- That's how, so to me, it's like,
01:09:31
Speaker
would this episode have been better if it borrowed more from TOS? Because many times on TOS, as soon as they beam down, they're arrested. You know what I mean? like Or captured, or know there's an ambush, or something like that. And they're they're jumped into a certain degree of action that compels certain decisions on their part just to survive. you know And it's like, this is different. You already mentioned this with all the technology and all that stuff. I'll go with that. I thought the Rava actor, I kept Did you see the movie Bottoms? No. OK, there's a just one of the characters in that. so Ruby Cruz vaguely looks like this person, so I kept getting it getting them confused. But that we'll go with that. So the Shatner, then who really obviously went for it for better or worse?
01:10:19
Speaker
I think Burnham with Rava's dad, when when she was like, please listen to me, please, you've got to believe me. I felt like that, that's what I put. Great one. Saniqua Martin Green, again, big fan. ah Sometimes it's just fun to listen to her. like when i so On some of these rewatches, I will just be washing dishes and listening. um And in every line of dialogue with her, it's just, ha-da-da-da-da-da, ah.
01:10:47
Speaker
but did it ah She has a lot of tonation in her voice, and she does the whisper at the end. You've got to believe me. You've got to let him go. Life! and She's always all over the place.
Burnham's Character Evolution
01:11:00
Speaker
It's kind of it's very controlled, but it's it's kind of funny in some circumstances, and I totally agree in that. debt Especially when it's just like, we just saw her in Face the Strange come face to face with herself. She's like, I'm going to have to fight myself. Fuck.
01:11:15
Speaker
but and this one I don't want to hurt you, but I will if I have to. And this one, it's just some religious guy she's been mocking for most of the episode who's very weak and like dehydrated. Just knock him out. It's stupid. Give him some water and tell him to keep quiet. That's right. Shoot. Yeah, that's right. Just throw water on him. Oh my gosh. Shoot to thrill. Most exciting image or sequence.
01:11:41
Speaker
Um, these weren't exciting, but I did like the look of the healing Grove. It just was very like it was giving Salem witch trials to me. I was like, Ooh, they went all the way back with this when they talked about an old society like because I don't know that's just that's what it that's exactly what it made me feel like. And even though it was not a a sad
Visual Design of the Healing Grove
01:12:02
Speaker
place. I also mean the the beat where they're using the bowls to clean out the woman's lungs before they use the but right before they use the bowls when they come like when they come into the Grove when they go bring her into the healing Grove and then it's like trees but the trees don't have any
01:12:18
Speaker
leaves or whatever. So they're just kind of brown and ominous and lots of darkness and stuff. And then I also put inside the temple was very Indiana Jones. I really enjoyed that set. I really, really enjoyed that set. I put the opening shots of the episode where Burnham, Stamets and Tilly are staring at the vial of distilled water.
01:12:38
Speaker
when And they have all the different colored lights over them. But they're all painted in different lights with the nice close-ups. I thought it looked very cool. It was kind of spooky in a way to give some mystery some mystery. you know I thought that was interesting because it were they really were just staring at a vial of distilled water. And the director was like, well, I should probably make this look interesting. Right? I thought somebody was going to drink it.
01:13:07
Speaker
to prove it. Like I was like, maybe if you drink it, that's when the clue comes out has to react with cells in your body or something. That's what I thought. Nobody drink it though. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy?
01:13:19
Speaker
I think they're
Starfleet Academy Lessons
01:13:20
Speaker
going to teach a lot. I think they're going to teach about grief therapy ho like holographic programs. I think they're going to teach about sound baths that can create sonic healing, because that's something we should know. That feels to me like a, I mean, who has a sound bowl on hand? I don't know. But whatever this technology is, that's like, that feels like something that should be on like a um in shuttles or something, just like a backup kit. Sound baths and vibrational therapy, I think all that actually is stuff that we do today. I've been to a sound bath before and... I have too, but not where the actual... Not where my lungs that cleared out. That's what I'm saying. Not where the waves of sound push dust from your lungs, right? it In sound baths, the way it's used today is more just like the sound themselves is supposed to soothe your mind. But I think this idea of using a sound bowl
01:14:08
Speaker
that has a physical effect on your body to actually like eject things from your lungs or whatever. That's a technology they need to learn. They need to learn that from these people. um that And then just about whistle speak. They need to learn that because it's cool.
01:14:22
Speaker
I think because Starfleet Academy's curriculum is so barren and so bad that it offers the students nothing.
Burnham's Knowledge Contributions
01:14:31
Speaker
I think i think one of Burnham's offerings, if she doesn't have time to show up and you know pop in and be a A guest Yeah, a guest lecturer. Thank you. ah She might provide some of Dr. Toprasi's xenolinguistics seminar material. She mentions, now this wasn't Starfleet Academy. This is when she was on Vulcan that she learned all that. So I think that would be
01:14:55
Speaker
important. Xenoanthropology, probably when you're from the past and there's been all this time that's passed, you actually provide living history that can really advance the field. So I think Burnham would be actually a really great just instructor or at least a source for information. um ah But we do know they're not teaching cadets how to manage their anxiety. Goodness gracious. Cadet Ross, Anson Tall, Lieutenant Tilly, I mean,
01:15:24
Speaker
Yeah, that technology is gone. They got to bring that back, maybe in the 40th century. ah Yeah. All right.
Critique and Improvement Suggestions
01:15:31
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier? Would that have made it better? I don't I just don't think there was any romance at all in this episode that just was not just horny doesn't have to be romance I mean couldn't have been I get couldn't it always be but wouldn't have made it better I don't think so I think the episode was missing something that made it distinct because they dropped the whistle speak if the if the whistle speak had been in the episode more and been more of a point
01:15:55
Speaker
Yeah, instead of just a garnish, then I think then ah that would have been enough to separate it. But instead or remember the episode where burn them until you have to basically whistle the whole episode. You know what I mean? Like they drop it, though, and they never have to do it. You know, that's not like it they never have to prove that they're a part of this tribe. They got the the extremely unbelievable. Yeah, they got the temporary tattoo. They mock them for an act, like the whole time they're with them. They mock all their beliefs. They're like, they're a very unconvincing. They're talking presumably in a strange language in front of this woman who's dying. And she could have just been like, what are you saying? so And it just,
Adding Romantic Tension
01:16:33
Speaker
I don't know.
01:16:33
Speaker
ah So, horniness, I think, to me, would have been a welcome thing if you were if you're gonna you were committed to dropping the whistle speak because you didn't know what to do with it. I think, I don't know, that this religious leader ah lost his wife. He could have been into Burnham. He could have been in Atelier. That would have been something. That's like just a wrinkle.
01:16:52
Speaker
ah um Yeah, more Prime Directives, Prime Directives. That's right, that's right. and That's what the best Star Trek Prime Directive episodes do, is that someone for sure wants to sleep with one of our main characters. Alright, so Trek, Merry or Kill, Whistle Speak. I pick Trek. I like this one.
01:17:10
Speaker
I am whistle killing this one because I'm- Whistle killing? I'm whistle
Critical Episode Analysis
01:17:14
Speaker
killing it. woo I can't whistle. so ah I'm going to put kill because I just think that there was, again, too generic on the alien race, the prime directive, shmime directive, and also used to kind of a ah net a net negative effect. And then sort of the whole, there are multiple towers.
01:17:32
Speaker
just the plot doesn't really hold up to make sense so then what's this one ultimately about i kind of just walked away from it being like thank goodness that's over and to be perfectly honest when i first saw this episode like i said i stay and i watch these i'm like oh i remember reading the description before it dropped and being like oh whistle speak that might be interesting and i promise you that i turned it off after the once they got to the opening credits i was so Uninterested in the setup that i'm like this seems like an episode that I can skip and whatever I need to know they'll tell me in the previously le on in the next episode and Kind of feel like that's the case. I kind of felt like they were isn't that true of all the episodes though?
01:18:12
Speaker
It shouldn't be. And I think the ones that you can do that too, you can just kill. But I mean, like there was nothing, I think ultimately watching it multiple times, like what do I, I didn't learn anything new about Burnham. I learned that Tilly is more incompetent than I suspected or whatever. You know what I mean? Like we didn't get much there. We got another tall Saint.
01:18:31
Speaker
sequence that we've seen before. The Culver thing doesn't really go anywhere. It's just like we need to check in and give them a storyline. ah Books in the episode two and this kind of worried. We just need to have him in there to make sure it's clear he's worried about Maul and Locke. And it's like, ah, what does it add up to? Raynor's in it, but what's he doing? He's not doing anything different. So it felt very much like a placeholder episode. Was the juice worth the squeeze? And I just didn't feel like it amounted to very much so.
01:18:57
Speaker
yeah beautiful to look at. Maybe that's, maybe that's like their way of covering over it. Um, anyway. All right. So we'll put this one to vote. Uh, it'll be either a trek or a kill according to your votes. Uh, and next
Discussion Wrap-Up
01:19:10
Speaker
week we'll continue with discovery's fifth season with the episode seven trees. Tell the people where they can find you away from this podcast.
01:19:18
Speaker
Well, you can find me on YouTube by typing in at the sci-fi savage, where I do a weekly live stream every single Wednesday talking all things Star Trek. Trek Mary K Pod on social media, trekmarykillpod.com on the web if you need to check out our standings, how many treks, marries, and kills we've given to each of the shows. So until next week, TMK out. Bye.