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Say Gay -- But Don't Forget to Say Bi, Too!
4.6k Plays3 years ago
Interested in sponsoring this show or podcast ads for your business? Go to https://zen.ai/twobiguys0 and fill out the contact information so Zencastr can help you bring your business story to life.
Alex is back to co-host! In this episode he and Rob have a free-flowing discussion touching on their recent dating and sex lives, how their bi identities continue evolving and expanding, other parts of sexuality that are just as important as gender preference or identity (sometimes more important!), demisexuality and how it can relate to trauma and boundaries (trigger warning: sexual assault), and the wonderful world of alt-Twitter. We also got political and discussed Florida's "Don't Say Gay" law -- as well as other anti-queer and especially anti-trans legislation being passed all over the country -- the stupidity and harm of Lauren Boebert and other fundamentalist politicians targeting queer kids and teachers, the continued damage being done by She-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named with her unwarranted anti-trans rhetoric, and how to fight back against all this with radical acceptance and authenticity. Plus a bit about bisexuality in media, touching on the 2019 movie "Straight Up".
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
Made on Zencastr #MadeOnZencastr
You can get 30% off Zencastr for 3 months with promo code: twobiguys -- or just click this link: https://zencastr.com/pricing?coupon=twobiguys&fpr=ex42o. Start recording your own podcast or meetings today!
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Transcript
Zencastr's Creator Network for Podcast Advertising
00:00:00
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:02:39
Speaker
It's just so long.
Rob's Personal Transformation Journey
00:02:42
Speaker
It's just a chore. I haven't been to a hairdresser or actually gotten my hair cut by somebody professionally since before COVID. Wow. You've resisted this long. I just keep trimming the sides and backs, which is the laziest, easiest. Oh, it's like you got a little bun.
00:03:03
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. Because I basically shaved my head at one point last year. And then it's just been growing out since. Wow. I like it. That was a mistake.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah. I feel like there's something, like my gender is going through a transformation here or something. Your presentation is going through something. I don't know. Okay. We're going to talk about that. Okay. I'm going to put all this in. Fuck it. That's our intro. Yeah. Ready? Music comes in.
Introduction of Co-host Alex and Podcast Evolution
00:03:46
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Rob and I have my favorite guest on the show. He's the other bye guy. He's not a guest. He's one of the hosts. I was going to say I downgraded. I got downgraded to guest. No, you're the other bye guy. Nevermind. Yeah. My co-host is back today. We have a lot of bye guys. It's not just two bad guys around here.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not just by guys, it's by people and it's to any people of any identity talking about anything. That's the show. Yes. Welcome back, Alex. It's good to have you back on season four.
Alex's Identity and Self-Exploration
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's wild that it's been this long a little bit, but it was like a year ago, almost a year ago since I last recorded, which is wild. Yeah, that season three episode was a year ago and then there was some early pandemic stuff and it's been a crazy couple years, hasn't it? Yeah, I was just making room for all the other bad guys.
00:04:45
Speaker
That was the pitch. When we talked about this podcast, we were talking, or I think I was the bigger champion, maybe anticipating my departure for a year, talking about expanding into a group of hosts, right? Yes. I did it. Jacob Engelberg. We did try that for a little bit. Gabriel.
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, we had Gabriel, we had Jacob, I recruited a couple others who had just didn't, the timing and the logistics didn't work out. I tried. And it also ended up being almost more work to get the guest host for me than to then actually just doing it myself. So it didn't actually make the podcast easier to maintain. But it was very nice to have some guest hosts. Maybe we'll do that again. Or I could I can make a more drastic return. And then so we'll see.
00:05:32
Speaker
The listeners are eager to have you back. A lot of them ask, where's Alex? And there's also a Discord channel for bisexual men. And your name comes up frequently on there. I was just reading a comment of like, we want Alex back. When is Alex back? There's a lot of people that connect with your story. So I'm glad you're here. Yeah.
00:05:50
Speaker
this flattery. I don't know. For those who are wondering what I've been doing, I feel like it's a boring bisexual life that I've been living. Well, catch us up on all the boringness. All the boringness. Catch us up. What's been going on in your life since season three?
Broadening the Understanding of Sexuality
00:06:04
Speaker
I love boring. I feel like everybody's life is a little... Well, a lot of people's life is just generally more boring nowadays. I also feel like my 20s are behind me. I'm a less adventurous... Well, not actually. I'm still very much in my 20s, but
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I'm just content with moving on to a more introverted by lifestyle nowadays. But I feel like there's an element of if you're not actively dating, you're not necessarily actively exploring bisexuality or romance in the same way. So then there's less to talk about. But at the same time, I feel like
00:06:43
Speaker
2021 is kind of like a year of therapy. Now I'm actually in therapy again, so there's that too. So yeah. Always helpful. Yes. Well, and yes, but like we often do reduce bisexuality down to dating and sex, but it affects many areas of our lives as we've often discussed and sometimes in ways that are difficult to recall or we don't expect. And so we'll get into all of it.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't mean to discount all of the points that we've spent three seasons making. Yeah. Of course, of course. Boring bisexuals are just a thing. We can unpack a boring bisexual. There's plenty to talk about. And a boring bisexual is still very bisexual. That's what's most exciting about it. Yeah. Maybe the most bisexual of all.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know why. Yeah, sure. No, I guess I'm also like discounting. I feel like I've, I've like explored, I think I explore like my sexuality and my identity more broadly now it is, as opposed to like my bisexuality. If that makes sense. Interesting. Like I'm not necessarily.
00:07:47
Speaker
I don't know. Sexuality is like more complex than just like the genders of the people that you're attracted to. Right. Yes. So I feel like it's all of the other things, you know. Great first topic. Yeah. There we go. I did it. Topic. We got a topic. I segued into something. Yeah. We had no idea what we were going to talk about and now we have something. We did not. Yeah. I don't know. Because yeah, the very idea of talking about bisexuality implies that you're going to talk about gender.
00:08:16
Speaker
and the actual attraction to people. And I feel like we have often talked about the fact that, I don't know, sometimes bisexuality has brought out other elements of identity and other non-binary elements of who we are. So I think while we have said that a lot, I think this is the first time in my life that I've been able to separate from this idea of being attracted to genders, collections of genders, and proving that and validating that for myself.
00:08:44
Speaker
instead like actually just dipping into and just like fully absorbed in the rest of what that identity has implied for me. Oh, cool. Okay, so I want to ask what that means for you in a second. But I will also just say, last recent episode, we had Mark Wilkinson on and he talked about, you know, we take a lot of things for granted because that this is what we
00:09:05
Speaker
brought up with. But why is sexuality so based on gender? Why is gender the first thing we often label ourselves based on? Straight, gay, bi, all the other terms are very based on gender, whereas it could be anything. It doesn't have to be gender that
00:09:24
Speaker
identifies our sexuality, what if it were the things you're into or the things that turn you on? What if it were your relationship structure that you prefer? It could really be anything that we define our sexuality based on, or it could be many things. And I just facilitated a by request, and this was the exact topic. And we talked about it for two hours, so there's a lot.
00:09:50
Speaker
Love it. Yeah. We're just saying on brand here. Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel like, yeah, that resonates with me. And I think that we often like there is like bisexuality in the spectrum that that lives on. And then there's like asexuality, which kind of talks about like preference, like beyond gender, right? Like that's talking about like the level of sexuality that you feel, including that spectrum, of course.
00:10:13
Speaker
But then there are, yeah, I mean, I've been thinking and maybe that's like, maybe it's a 2022 thing. Maybe everyone came into this year thinking about all of the other elements of sexuality or something. It has been a theme on recent episodes. In case anyone was wondering, yes, I was listening. I have been a listener here.
00:10:32
Speaker
But I do feel like there's a lot of ways to unpack sexuality beyond, yes, who are you attracted to? Which is just such a basic question that often has, in some form, you can get to a simple answer. But I feel like the actual question of sexuality is, what actually sparks sexual attraction for you?
00:10:57
Speaker
We're, you know, we talk about all the time, like as bi people that like this stereotype of like us being attracted to literally all people or something like hyper sexual, like that's obviously not true. There's, there's more than just like being a man or a woman or someone else, you know, identifying as another gender. And like, what are those actual situations? Like, what are that? Like, what are the dynamics that you need to feel sexual attraction? Maybe it's easy. Maybe it's like all of the time and maybe it's none of the time, but also.
00:11:27
Speaker
I don't know, where do like preferences beyond identity fall into that?
00:11:33
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Well, let's talk about it. So what kind of stuff have you been exploring in that? What other things about your sexuality have you found are important besides just gender or what gets you going? Yes, yes. We'll go with it. What gets you going? I mean, to be clear, I have no idea what gets me going in some ways. So don't expect this to be fully formed. It's a lifelong journey.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think I like have unpacked to this like because I always talk about on here historically about being demisexual
Navigating Comfort and Expectations in Sexuality
00:12:09
Speaker
and like what that means. And yeah, I mean, I and I think I've like toyed with like ace spectrum identities. And then it's like, I think it's just like a very specific set of situations sometimes that actually I'm like pointing to and then like,
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want to say that I'm ever like, if you're working on a scale from zero to 10 of like asexual to hypersexual. Yeah, like I'm below a five most of the time. But I feel like I've started to realize that like, demisexuality appeals to me because there is that connection, like there is just like that emotional connection that's needed. And specifically, there's so much about like,
00:12:49
Speaker
demonstration of just like empathy generally that I think like builds the trust with me that can then like pave the way towards actually being attracted and wanting to like have sex with the person. Right? So while like the attraction to empathy is like a set of like conceited kind of framework to operate in. I don't think it's, it's that as much as yeah, there's just,
00:13:15
Speaker
I don't know if I've talked about the fact that like I've been, so I was sexually assaulted like quite a few, well, a couple of times when I moved to the city and when I was really like exploring my bisexuality. And I feel like that's like the piece that like, how does trauma and how does like your social setting and the way that you learn about people that you're dating, how does, how does that impact your sexuality too? Right? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. That's rambly.
00:13:43
Speaker
I don't have a point that I'm making, but there's a few there. There's a lot of stuff in there. Do you want to talk about how those experiences early on moving to New York did affect your sexuality? I mean, does that have something to do with the demisexual identity of wanting to feel connected or comfortable with someone? Yeah. Yeah, right. And that's what I was kind of to paint that in a clearer picture.
00:14:09
Speaker
I think I have a lot of distrust and a lot of inherent distrust in people, especially men, that it just takes a while to build that trust that then allows me to let that guard down, let that anxiety down. And it's similar to the anxiety of, I don't know, I guess I have a lot of pent up sexual and romantic anxiety. That's what I'm unpacking this year.
00:14:36
Speaker
But yeah, whether it's like a straight woman or like a masculine man, like both can make me very anxious in very different ways. So a straight woman, because like I'm then charged with fitting like the straight male mold, which isn't going to happen. Yeah, they can do that. Yeah. And then like the masculine man, because like predator vibes can come out if, if predator vibes are there, you know,
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel a similar way in terms of what like what turns me on or creates conditions for me to be interested in someone is like, I think I'm realizing lately like I need a certain comfort level with the person for similar reasons. Like when I first started exploring with men, there were situations that made me uncomfortable that I hadn't encountered and I didn't really know how to navigate.
00:15:30
Speaker
certain spaces. And I wanted to try stuff, so I was engaging in stuff and looking back. Some of those experiences were not so great. And now lately, the more open I am about talking things through and being explicit about stuff before it's happening, I've realized that connecting with someone and actually seeing what they're like and what their personality is
00:15:57
Speaker
does make a difference and I'm more willing to say no if it's not a good match. But then I still quite wouldn't describe myself. Maybe I'm on the demisexual spectrum or something because yes, my attraction can certainly go up the more I'm into someone on a personal level
00:16:16
Speaker
but I still am into more anonymous type situations if there's a structure around it that makes me feel comfortable in terms of expectations. I think it's about expectations for me where it's like, I want to know going in what is on the table and I don't want everything to be on the table. I don't want to have to
00:16:39
Speaker
decide in the moment sometimes. So for example, there are masturbation parties that I've been going to, and I like that because it's very clear of what the boundaries are. I can be into it anonymous as long as the boundaries are very clear and I like what the boundaries are. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely.
Platforms for Sexual Expression and Bisexuality
00:17:06
Speaker
I feel like there's
00:17:09
Speaker
going back to because, you know, you could argue we're all on like a demisexual spectrum too. Like how much connection do you need to be sexually attracted to somebody, right? Like that is to kind of say, and not to discredit the label, but to say that it's kind of another like nonsense label to a degree that like it's more nuanced than that implies, right? Yeah. As all labels are.
00:17:32
Speaker
because I do feel like most people like some level of comfort with the people that they're like actually having sex with, right? Like you probably want some kind of understanding, some kind of certainty maybe. And like some people don't, right? Like if there are some people who kind of, you know, yeah, yeah, I don't know. But that's just like a quality of sexuality to me, right? Like how much, like what does it take to experience sexual attraction? More, less connection, something in between, right? So,
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah. I got on alt Twitter recently. Do you have an alt Twitter? I don't. Do you know what I'm talking about? No. What's alt Twitter? There's a whole section of Twitter that is difficult to search for. You can't search for the terms and
00:18:21
Speaker
You're not going to see nudity in your feed unless you specifically follow certain accounts. But once you're in there and you have an account, everyone's following each other. There's this whole other section of Twitter that is basically like
00:18:37
Speaker
you know, people posting sex stuff and nudes and meeting up via Twitter and connecting over stuff they like to do sexually. And a lot of people show their face, a lot of people don't. I forget why I brought that up. What were you talking about? I just want to talk about my alt Twitter.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. This is dumbfounding to me. What is the purpose it's serving that isn't already filled elsewhere?
00:19:08
Speaker
Well, I do think when Tumblr used to be a big porn destination and then it's not anymore, and I think part of it is now it's on to Twitter. But I don't know. It's a social media network and a lot of people on there have an OnlyFans or make money through sex work in other ways. And
00:19:31
Speaker
Twitter is a platform where content creators of all kinds promote their stuff and have a following that they can direct to other places. Most of the accounts that have a lot of followers in alt Twitter are certainly monetizing it on an OnlyFans or something like that. Maybe it starts there and it trickles down to everyone. But it's kind of cool because it's like
00:19:56
Speaker
I mean, you won't come across it in your feed normally, but once you find it, it is actually kind of cool to see how open people are and how out there it is. I mean, it really is normalizing both sex work and content creation, but it's also normalizing just
00:20:15
Speaker
sharing our bodies and not being afraid of nudity or sex and things people take pleasure in just sharing it. And for a lot of people, their kink is like exhibitionism or their kink is people seeing them engaged in sex without reciprocity. And you can certainly do that on alt Twitter. Okay. Yeah, I feel- Taught you something new today.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like it segues into the fact that like, or reminds me rather that like, yeah, I don't know if I've said it enough here, but like, I'm a prude too, right? Like, I'm like, I'm here talking about sex and such, but folks in my life are not, we're not expecting this, you know, right turn. Yeah, I don't know. But maybe that's like, and where does, is my being a prude, does that like count as part of my sexuality? Like, yes, it does.
00:21:13
Speaker
All Twitter's not for me. Uh-huh, yeah.
00:21:23
Speaker
Also, I've been thinking a little about how my bisexuality is very foundational to my sexuality. It opened the door for me. It is the basis of I'm open to any type of person, really. I mean, it depends on the person, but I have no disqualifiers. And so it does give me a baseline. But
00:21:47
Speaker
I've found dating men and women not exactly the same, but it's not wildly different. I've talked about being shocked how similar it can be. But since I've been exploring polyamory, basically since we've been vaccinated, my partner and I have been polyamorous, and that identity
00:22:12
Speaker
has affected my day-to-day sexuality so much more than my bisexuality. It's almost like my bisexuality is
00:22:21
Speaker
while foundational, it's like I don't notice it or think about it every day. Whereas the poly stuff, I've had to learn new ways of communicating and read books about polyamory and how to navigate it and talk to my partner a ton about what we both want and what we need and what we're willing to
00:22:44
Speaker
accept. And there's been a lot more exploration in my life in the last year or so in terms of that identity than bisexuality. Yeah. So you're saying that bisexuality is not central to your whole life despite hosting a podcast? That's all about it. That's kind of a heel turn for people, I think.
00:23:07
Speaker
But it's true, right? Like bisexuality is just like maybe the most important part in some ways, right? Like because it's like the least understood. There's the least vocal people out there, you know, maybe around that part of your identity.
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah. And sexuality from most straight people's point of view is entirely based on gender, right? And there's only a few choices. It's like straight, gay, lesbian, bi. I mean, we know there's other labels, but to most people, those are the choices. And poly or demisexual or asexual,
00:23:43
Speaker
those are not terms that everyone understands. So they're not like terms you can walk around saying, that's what I am. And, and yes, there's misconceptions about bi. But if I say I'm poly, like, there's even more questions, there's a whole, like, they don't even know what I'm trying to tell them sometimes. Like, yeah, you know, there's a lot then, like, that you have to explain. Yeah. Just straight people even think about sex, like, do they even think like, or do they just do it? And it's easy. It's by the book. Boring.
00:24:12
Speaker
their sexuality is just that. I don't know. There's just a variety among straight people. I don't know enough. No, they're all no acts. Straight people are all the same and they all think alike. Well, I guess like literally like if you can't even see beyond a single gender of potential partners, can you see beyond like the possibility of like three positions? Like
00:24:37
Speaker
Right, right, right. Is that like, how does that affect? I mean, that's like a dumb way of phrasing it maybe, but like, I don't know. No, I don't seem to be like how much critical thought goes into straightness, you know? Well, yeah. And I mean, I do think that like, when I identified a straight,
00:24:53
Speaker
most of the sex I had was like missionary position, guy on top, like you're done when the guy comes and the girl comes, cool. If not, who cares? I mean, that's not how it should be. But like, that was how it was for me for a while. And like, I didn't know any better. My partners either also didn't know any better or were uncomfortable having that conversation with me.
00:25:17
Speaker
And I'm sad if it was the latter, but I was also uncomfortable having those conversations too. I just went in, followed the expectations and assumptions. It wasn't working for me, but I thought that's what you did and it didn't matter if it worked perfectly for you or not.
00:25:35
Speaker
I would come, so it felt good. So at least there's some good aspect of it, but I never thought much beyond that. And then as soon as I came out as bi or not as soon as, but over time and with experience, I got so much more comfortable talking things through, feeling what I liked and explaining what I liked and saying it out loud, asking a partner what they're into and what they like.
00:26:03
Speaker
I shed a lot of the shame that I had about things I was into. It also gets into kink and fetishes. It's about shame and embarrassment and coming out as bi helped me break free of all that and so it diversified my sex life. So to go to your point, I do think
00:26:23
Speaker
when you're locked into a straight box, you're probably locked into some other boxes too, in terms of just physical activities or ways of relating to your partner. Yeah, we're just backtracking the points that we make all the time, right? Like bisexuality has brought us out of the box and now we're just commenting on the fact that straight people are just, I don't know, they're just living in a box. They're content with it. I don't know.
00:26:51
Speaker
I mean, straight people. Yeah.
Evolving Definitions of 'Gay' and Dating Challenges
00:26:54
Speaker
But this does loop back. Like this is why I don't date straight people because what kind of life is that? I can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I feel bad. I feel bad for the straights. Maybe there's some good straight people out there.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, there's probably a few. You know, it's also interesting this season we've had more guests whose story sort of mirrors yours a little. I've identified as gay for a long time who now don't want to shed the gay label because that
00:27:29
Speaker
is a community they belong to and a culture and a label they've held for so long, it defines them. But the label isn't as rigid as I used to think it was for them. I used to think gay men, you're only attracted to men.
00:27:48
Speaker
And for many gay people, I think it's expanding from that. And like we had Court Vox who identifies as gay and pansexual. And then we had Mark Wilkinson who identifies as gay and queer. So anyway, I don't know what you think about that, but you're leading the charge.
00:28:08
Speaker
I think I'm just along for the ride, one of many. I don't know, because to me, gay is a very limiting term still. And maybe that's just my desire to be visible in not being just a standard cis white gay guy, because I know that's so very not me, that I have queer tattooed down my spine for a reason. So I love that gay is opening up in the same way that I straight is starting to open up in some ways too.
00:28:38
Speaker
but also I don't know if I can go back. I don't know if I can like reclaim a word that I, especially, and maybe that's based on the fact that like, it took so much time to like reclaim something else and like defend the fact that I was like, bye. So yeah.
00:28:52
Speaker
Not that anyone's doing a disservice, own whatever labels you want. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe I'll go back to identifying as straight and bi and just push the limits of straight while, no, I'm not going to do that, but I could. Sorry, I was just straight bashing all the times and then you're claiming straight. I just feel like we were in an awkward position. That's why I want to reclaim it because of all the bashing of my former identity you've been doing.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah. Just kidding. I don't give a fuck. We need to talk about like some 2.0 or 3.0 topics where we always get sucked into like bisexuality is more than sex. Pansexuality means the same as bi. Do you want to do any other greatest hits?
00:29:42
Speaker
We got a message the other day on the Instagram that I haven't responded to and it was a very nice question, but the person was like, have you guys talked about the term polysexual and how the word bisexual can be seen as binary? And I was kind of like, we talk about that so much. It's probably the most talked about topic on this podcast. Did you just listen to one episode?
00:30:06
Speaker
Maybe that's what's happening. I'm just bored by bisexual 101 talks, so now I'm trying to find all of the other interesting parts of my sexuality. It's not that interesting. What is there? Have you found anything else that's unique and interesting? No, I've been on three dates in a year. There's nothing interesting happening here. Don't.
00:30:28
Speaker
Dating is hard still, especially after COVID. I mean, I'm poly, so it's even harder, I feel like, but even monogamy dating is more difficult these days, it feels like. For me, it's just I work remotely. I'm at home all the time, and then where do I meet people? I used to host those drink nights, and that's not in the culture anymore. So how do you... Yeah, what does it mean to just naturally meet somebody?
00:30:57
Speaker
No, right. There isn't as much of that, you know, naturally occurring meetings anymore. Yeah. And I do. Yeah. And I do feel like that it's been a weird, like pivot away from, like I've become more shallow, if that makes sense, because like, what else are you basing it off of? Like messages tell me nothing. Like you can like craft, like if you're spending five minutes crafting each message, like that could be a put on. I can't judge you based off of that, but
00:31:28
Speaker
pictures like, I don't know, that is kind of what it is. There's not always gonna tell you the full story, but I do feel like this world has made me more shallow, which is maybe good that I can finally reckon with the fact that I am shallow. I'm prudish, I'm shallow.
00:31:47
Speaker
If you're embracing that identity, then that's great. But if you don't want to be so shallow, but you have no choice because you have to meet people on apps and you have to make decisions somehow, then I'm not sure that that's great. But that's actually true.
00:32:02
Speaker
that's actually like there are more apps these days and I may interview someone on the podcast about this. There are more apps that are less about connecting with the person of the right identity based on your sexuality and more about connecting with a person over
00:32:21
Speaker
a shared interest or an activity that you want to do. The ones I'm thinking of are sex-based. There's an app called Hetero, which is for people who enjoy oral sex and want to meet and connect over oral sex. You don't even list your sexuality. You just list what your gender identity is, what gender identities you want to see show up, and then you connect and talk about oral sex. There's the new app Sniffy's that's similar. It's like
00:32:51
Speaker
I'm going to be in this spot at this time and this is what's going to be happening there. If you're into that activity, come by. And apps like that are quite popular at the moment. I wonder if stuff like that will replace other things and maybe even enter into the straight space of like,
00:33:12
Speaker
you know, why are we swiping left and right on a bunch of photos? What if it was like, here's a room for people who like hiking and want to go on a first date? That's a hike.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I do feel like it's looping to our point that like sexuality is like broader than gender, right? And also like sexuality doesn't always have to do with like, maybe there's a few jumps between whatever you're talking about insects, but like, it's one of the things that gets you there, right? Like hiking. Yeah. Like, I am attracted to like, active people and not because like,
00:33:45
Speaker
I don't know, running is just like a sexy thing or something like, right. But like it implies more about the person. It implies that like they enjoy the outdoors that they take care of themselves in like a physical way that I can align with. Right. I don't know. Or how many words are like, how many different ways are we going to learn to define our sexuality in the future?
Critique of 'Don't Say Gay' Laws and Visibility Issues
00:34:05
Speaker
Right. What about don't say gay?
00:34:14
Speaker
I know. That's what I was going to say. What were you going to say? Don't say gay? Yeah. You were going to say don't say gay or you were going to say gay? Yeah. What do you think about don't say gay? You agree with it, right? I mean, these are young kids. Big fan. Kids shouldn't be talking about sex. I don't know. What do they think is happening?
00:34:34
Speaker
Yeah. Radical indoctrination of kids to be queer, right? Right. We're making kids queer by talking about queerness, which is revealing in itself that they think that if kids know that queerness is possible, that they'll be queer. Nobody is indoctrinating anyone. We just want to be open and talk about things or answer questions that kids have as all these teachers
00:35:01
Speaker
would like to do. And it's interesting that the assumption of this don't say gay legislation is like, we can't let them know that this is possible because then they'll be queer. And I'm kind of like, well, yeah, that is true, but we shouldn't be afraid of that. We should be afraid of the alternative, which is what I grew up with. But you go ahead. Yeah.
00:35:21
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I mean, firstly, let us just state how moronic this lies, right? Let us just tackle that piece first. That it's just a dumb, what is the practicality of this? There are queer people who are teaching there. There are queer people who have parents. They're shocking. Even if you don't say it, there's going to be a queer kid.
00:35:45
Speaker
who it just comes up, they just, the internet still exists and it stretches outside of Florida. Right. Right. As if, as if everything kids learn is in school, as if like you can control everything a kid is exposed to. My teacher taught me that I was bisexual. That's obviously how I found out. No, I don't think that
00:36:08
Speaker
I don't think I learned to be queer from my teacher, right? And I don't imagine that's how many people are learning it.
00:36:15
Speaker
I'm not exactly sure. That's just not how it goes. But I do think there is an element. You're saying that if we do talk about it enough, there will be more queer. We are seeing that in the fact that there are far more queer identifying young people than there have ever been, because we're talking about queerness much more. And that's not because we're making them queer. It's just because we're giving language and understanding to it all, obviously. Right. And visibility and representation.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah, and we're also starting to understand that there is more than just this westernized binary of gender and sexuality where you literally have one exact version of what you can be based on your born genitalia at birth. And that is such a manufactured, and all we've done is start to break that down.
00:37:07
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, what's the, what's the enemy to like this conversation that you and I are having right now and all of the others that we've had on this podcast, like a silence of all of this, right? Like, like ending conversation about it. And I always think about like all of the reasons why we came on to like create this show, right? That we wanted to give visibility. And here are these like radical conservatives
00:37:32
Speaker
who are choosing to do the opposite to literally work directly against what like you and I are doing here, what I'm doing at work, right? Like what so many of us are just doing in our daily lives. And it is because it's like the only way they can like win the fight. The only way that they can win it is with children too, right? Because like we, if you go 30 years, think about how long it was, how long it took you to figure out that you were bi, right? You were 30 ish or whatever, right?
00:38:02
Speaker
And think about how much easier that would be if you were 15 and you were starting to question that. And like the more we put off that conversation, the harder it is for somebody to reckon with, for somebody to start speaking up about it. It's for somebody to kind of pull the pieces together because they, like your childhood does form who you are, right? Like that is, that's where you're learning your understanding of the world and your understanding of yourself. So.
00:38:28
Speaker
Like smart, it's good on them. It's the stupidest thing ever at face value at the same time, but like it is achieving the very purpose that like we are trying to work against. Right. Right. I like silencing conversation, streamlining.
00:38:42
Speaker
and making sure that the people in Florida within Florida that still have the largest voice are straight white people, right? Right, right. And it's like there's no like moral argument for straightness or like if a kid is having queer thoughts, there's no like, you're not gonna like convince them it's better to be straight at like, I mean, I guess you could, but their strategy is to silence
00:39:08
Speaker
the queerness and exclude it as a possibility. It is essentially how I grew up. I didn't see queer people like, yes, maybe on TV there was a few gay people, a few lesbian people as I got older,
00:39:25
Speaker
obviously know by people until recently but like in school in my real life I didn't know anyone I didn't know anyone who was queer I didn't know people who were gay until maybe later in high school I certainly didn't know anyone who was bi and like
00:39:40
Speaker
What did that do to me? Did that make me not queer? No, of course not. It just made me repress it and be really confused about it for 20 plus years. And so it just like made my life harder and delayed my progress until I was able to like be in an environment where I could break out of that. And I look back to I like, I know some people now who have come out like
00:40:07
Speaker
classmates, friends, teachers, summer camp people who I looked up to, who I now know are queer. And I wish I had known that back then. I would love nothing more than to have known that as a child because these are people who I liked and looked up to. And
00:40:28
Speaker
I wouldn't have become queer the second I've learned what—you don't become queer, right?
Conservative Backlash and Embracing Queerness
00:40:35
Speaker
We all have this capacity inside of us, I think, and we're all born with that capacity, and we either choose to light that flame and it grows or we snuff it out. And
00:40:46
Speaker
Yeah. At least if I had known these people I looked up to or was friends with were thinking in the same way as me, I might have kept that flame going. And I think the way it happened was I snuffed it out and then when I was in my 20s started researching it and re-found that flame and it got so bright, I couldn't put it out anymore. But
00:41:13
Speaker
Yeah, it was just the invisibility did not stop me from being queer. It just hurt me for many years. And that's what they want to do with Don't Say Gay, is recreate the 90s. Yeah, exactly. Because I don't know, straight men hate the way the world is right now. How many straight men out there are angry right now? Just because people have the capacity to deceive you on two genders. Think about the rage that exists over that.
00:41:42
Speaker
and think about how just you and I, discovering that we were by, think about all of the ways that opened up our perspective in so many other ways that we talk about all the time. And if they can cut this off when they are kids and keep them from even developing an openness to that, then they do kill all of that potential to actually question the way the world works, to question that maybe the world is doomed to
00:42:10
Speaker
you know, climate change and dystopia, right? Like, it's very easy to like build a culture through and sexuality, I think is just the easiest thing to pin right now. Because it's so personal, because sexuality is something that's so like ingrained in who we see ourselves, that
00:42:29
Speaker
You know, I think about all the time and I was just talking to like family. I've talked to friends recently about the fact that like my being the queer kid like formed so many aspects of like, I, it made me into a better student because I was afraid I was going to be rejected in so many ways. It like, you know, the point being that it just like your sexuality can define so much about who you actually become. Right. Interesting. And if.
00:42:54
Speaker
instead of building out this like sexuality. And just like, even if you're straight, like an understanding of what that sexuality is, because as we're talking about, sexuality is more than just like straight, gay, bi. But if you stop that early enough, like you stop critical thinking to a degree, right? Like that's what we're really kind of keeping from, they're just kind of focusing on facts, history, like right. But without any of that personal flair, without any of that like personal questioning that you should be doing when you're 15.
00:43:25
Speaker
Right. That is really interesting. I wonder if I was similar. I haven't really thought about it. I was a very high achieving student and maybe I was not letting myself access these other thoughts and feelings that made me feel different. I just focused on the stuff that was very clear to me and the expectations I could meet and just focused on school stuff.
00:43:53
Speaker
I didn't really date as much as my friends. At least I felt that way. I was very focused on stuff with structure. I wonder if that's related. Yeah. I mean, it can take you in any direction, but regardless, you learn more about yourself when you start to question it, when you start to realize that you just don't have to worry. Remove the anxiety from childhood about being outed.
00:44:21
Speaker
And you can just like be a more natural version of yourself, but instead like, and I, I feel like I've said trauma more in the last year, but I don't know. It's a year of unpacking trauma and trauma in like a very close sense, right? We all have our, our trauma from our life and like being a closeted teenager is traumatic, right? Like that is a traumatic experience that defines much about the way that you approach the world from there. So I think like.
00:44:49
Speaker
Do they think that, like, do these politicians think that they're like inflicting trauma on kids? Like, no, I don't think they consciously think that, but I don't think they care, even if how, no matter how much you, you tell them that that's what they're doing. Right. Because they're, they have their own like traumatized version of themselves to like outlook on themselves where, I don't know, even to just to like oppose a don't say gay bill.
00:45:13
Speaker
Think about what that would do to them. I totally agree. Have you seen Power of the Dog? Yes. I won't ruin it or anything, but a couple of things about Power of the Dog. It's about queerness. I think I can spoil that. It's pretty clearly in the trailer and in the first few minutes, it's about this queer kid and it's about how he's molded and shaped into
00:45:41
Speaker
something that is acceptable and that can get him through the world that they lived in in Montana in 1925. And it really makes you see how issues of queerness and fitting into a box of heteronormativity
00:45:58
Speaker
are always around. It changes and what it looks like changes, and we're breaking out of the box in the last decade more than ever. But this stuff has existed forever and it has been pushed aside or boxed in in lots of different ways at different periods. And
00:46:15
Speaker
it is really interesting to think about how universal queerness is both across space and time and among living things and other animals. An episode that's coming out of Two Bye Guys, our guest talks about how most mammals exhibit bisexual behaviors. Also, I was thinking of how all these politicians with the don't say gay and who
00:46:41
Speaker
think queer people are pedophiles or they're going to go in our bathrooms and they're going to assault people. Madison Cawthorn with the orgy parties and the cocaine, all of this stuff I think comes from somewhere. And when people are like,
00:46:58
Speaker
trying to deny stuff or ban stuff or campaign against certain things.
Impact of Legislation on LGBTQ+ Rights
00:47:05
Speaker
I think that's very revealing about what has gone on in their lives, things that they have learned to repress and therefore think everyone else should learn to repress them too. Because when you've made those decisions, even if they're subconscious, that's the way you see the world then. That's your framing of the world is that
00:47:25
Speaker
I did this work to push that aside and to abide by the norms. And everyone should do that. Otherwise, you're bad and you've made the bad choice. And so I think a lot of this stuff is pure projection and is very revealing of the people who are talking about it. Obviously, Madison Cawthorn obviously goes to those parties and does cocaine.
00:47:50
Speaker
Like, otherwise you wouldn't talk about it that way. And it's like, I mean, everything Trump says, everything they accuse other people of is what they are doing themselves. Yeah. I think it just like merits saying that the don't say gay bill is like one of many, many
00:48:08
Speaker
laws that I feel like there is a, it is what happens when we have elected queer people into office for the first time in like forever, right? Like there are by, you know, a by Senator, like think about how outraged people are going to be if they see that. And we're seeing that backlash, right? We saw that backlash when we elected a black person president and then we immediately responded with Trump. And yeah, trans people have a voice for the first time and like trans people are the predominant target here. I think like we have to be clear about that too.
00:48:38
Speaker
True. And it is no longer being enacted or potentially being enacted, but I don't think people have talked enough about what happened in Texas, too, with this, you know, governor signed, I'm drawing a blank on the word, but the governor declared that CPS had to, or folks would have to report trans identity, trans youth to CPS, that that was a form of child abuse to literally be supportive of a trans child. And
00:49:07
Speaker
Again, it's so, I mean, one, that's both of these are so harmful. And so like this may be in such a more direct way where you're actually like endangering people. And there's also this kind of like, what's the word? You're sending neighbors out to literally like attack other neighbors in many ways, right? And accuse other neighbors of abuse. You're relying on that kind of outing of trans people by people who are close to them, right? Because that's how that's going to happen.
00:49:37
Speaker
So then think about all of the trans youth in New York, in Texas that are terrified now that if they just speak anything, their parents could literally like face the repercussions, right? So thankfully,
00:49:52
Speaker
There was no like, you know, that is a, that's an illegal act that that governor attempted to take that was shut down. Right. But I think folks are like, we're starting to realize that like all of these, whatever it is, like whatever repression they have, or just like hatred for people, right? Like these like straight white conservative folks, like they are trying to kind of like kill this like outrage of like queer and this outbreak of like queer understanding and knowledge and like,
00:50:23
Speaker
The reality that like the knowledge that you have doesn't form your sexuality, like the knowledge you have, like the ways that you have, the words that you have to define yourself help you get out of all these boxes, right? Yeah. I don't know. It warrants getting out of Florida for a second. That's all. And like seeing that, you know, in a world where like we know that supportive, any supportive adult is going to
00:50:47
Speaker
potentially save a young person's life literally too from suicide, from whatever it may be. Let's not kid ourselves that white conservative men are very eager to
00:51:02
Speaker
abolish the mental health. You destroy the mental health of young queer people right now, or at least they're content with it, right? Yeah, it's like the tip of the spear that they're using is in these culture wars. I don't know if they don't realize or don't care how much harm they're going to cause just to win elections, or maybe they really believe
00:51:26
Speaker
this stuff, but it is going to cause so much harm. And there's been so many laws passed or in consideration to legislate away transness, and it's terrible. But there was one nice thing that happened. I want to read it. It was
00:51:43
Speaker
Utah's Republican governor, Spencer Cox, he vetoed a ban on trans athletes that was passed by the state legislature. For a Republican, he was pretty smart about it. The numbers shouldn't matter, but he did point out that there are 75,000 high school kids participating in sports in Utah and four transgender kids. The stink that was being made was over that.
00:52:12
Speaker
But then he wrote this, which I thought, I mean, it's what you said. You can't legislate this out of people. You can just make trans kids' lives unbearable. He wrote this in a statement, four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That's what all of this is about.
00:52:29
Speaker
four kids who aren't dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships, four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they're a part of something, four kids trying to get through each day, rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don't understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do, but I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly.
00:52:56
Speaker
For that reason, as much as any other, I've taken this action and hope that we could continue to work to find a better way." And I was actually having a debate with an old friend who is kind of on the fence about transgender athletes in sports. And I sent him this and some other context and he actually responded. He was like, you make a good point. Actually, I can see that. And it's kind of nice that there's a Republican governor who vetoed this and said,
00:53:25
Speaker
said and did it for exactly the right reason, I think, which is that you can't change people, but we want them to live. Is that so much to ask that they can grow up as who they are and live as who they are? Isn't that a little bit more important than whether sports are as competitive as they were? I mean, that's a whole other issue. I mean, we could get into trans in sports. I actually think that
00:53:50
Speaker
The whole thing is all their objections are ridiculous.
Conservative Fear of Visibility and Public Misunderstandings
00:53:54
Speaker
But without getting into that, the important thing is allowing people to live and rates of suicide and mental health outcomes are not great because of stuff like this and because kids can't be who they are until later in life, if ever, if they grow up in a state like that.
00:54:13
Speaker
And what these states are switching to is that they're switching the narrative away from progressive queer narratives where queer people can be happy back to the old days when you and I were growing up. When we were kids, did you ever see a happy queer person in media? That was the story we were told that if you were a gay kid, you were going to grow up maybe a little bit, and then you would die. That's generally what would happen.
00:54:41
Speaker
Sorry, dark episode. It's dark days for some people. But the point being that that is very much what they're trying to go back to. Not kill young people. They're not wanting young people to die outright, though they seem to be content with it.
00:54:57
Speaker
But they do want to switch the narrative to that. They want to instill fear. And you don't want to be that queer kid because you are going to be the target of literally a house-passed bill that is going to attack you personally and three other people. Think about the fear that that instills. If you're questioning anything about yourself, if you're questioning any aspect of your gender, your sexuality in any way,
00:55:21
Speaker
think about how much harder it now is going to be for those kids in Utah, even though it did get vetoed, just to start that conversation or even go to a GSA or something. And I think they have to demonize it because they're so afraid. They don't know what to do. And really, the truth is, my queerness, and for many queer people I know,
00:55:44
Speaker
once you get over the hump of the shame and the oppression, it's such a source of joy. I mean, queerness is a gift. For me, it's such a source of joy. And when kids see that or realize it for themselves, exploring themselves,
00:56:02
Speaker
There's nothing you can then say to somebody to be like, no, no, don't feel happy in that way. You feel it. You feel what it's like and you're in these communities and it's joy. There's no argument against that. So they have to demonize it preemptively in order to nip it in the bud. Otherwise, their straight world will start to crumble, which is exactly our goal.
00:56:32
Speaker
Yes, yeah, that is the call. Did you hear about what Lauren Boebert said? No. The other day? What did she say?
00:56:47
Speaker
Lauren Boebert tweeted. I just saw this. It's too ridiculous. She said, we require people to be 21 to purchase alcohol beverages. I would say alcoholic beverages, but I guess Lauren Boebert doesn't know the difference between a noun and an adjective.
00:57:09
Speaker
We require people to be 21 to purchase alcohol beverages and 21 to purchase tobacco products. Why is it so unreasonable to require people to reach a certain level of maturity before making life-altering decisions about their sexuality and identity?" So she's basically saying no one should come out before age 21.
00:57:32
Speaker
As somebody who came out as the wrong thing before 21, you can change. There's no life altering. I don't know.
00:57:45
Speaker
we're not putting a chip in our head that makes us queer here, that is then unremovable, right? Well, I don't know. For me, I put the chip in. I mean, for me, it's almost like the opposite. It's like taking the chip that programmed me out, and then I have the freedom to experience anything. But it almost is like we all have been implanted with that chip in growing up in the society we grew up in.
00:58:14
Speaker
Well, because that is what it is, right? We are being taught a certain version of gender and all these folks are doing, we are doing, is just unpacking that and just getting a little bit more of an understanding of what the reality of this world actually is.
00:58:30
Speaker
coming out is like taking out
Importance of Trans Visibility and Youth Identity
00:58:31
Speaker
that chip. I'm gonna use that. That's like, we should call it taking the chip out. I took the chip out when I was 30 or 29 and then I came out at 32. I feel like it's not harsh enough. Like there's so much more damage than like chip is just like such like an amicable, like it could be a symbiotic relationship. Like that's not a, like took the parasite out. Parasite, yeah, that's better. But also what Lauren Boebert's saying is really like,
00:58:58
Speaker
she's obviously not saying don't decide your sexuality until 21 or your gender identity. She's saying conform to heteronormativity. She's saying like clearly she's saying this in a world where straightness is the default and cisgenderness is the default. And so she's not saying don't make a life altering decision. It's first of all not a decision, more like a realization or an acceptance of something that is not a decision.
00:59:28
Speaker
But she's not saying don't realize that until 21. She's saying conform. Not coming out and not silence is a choice because we live in a world of dominant heteronormativity. So however, in a perfect world utopia, in a way, I almost don't disagree with her in terms of
00:59:52
Speaker
you don't need to define yourself right away. Like actually, if we lived in a world where there were no labels ever, I actually might get behind that. I mean, we need labels to identify ourselves in certain contexts, but I mean, I don't know. In some ways I agree with, in some ways I agree if in a perfect world, like, yeah, you don't have to label yourself unless you want to and it's okay if you don't.
01:00:19
Speaker
Yeah. No, that's real. In a certain light, Lauren Boebert is right. I'm going to clip, I'm just going to clip the two seconds of it and put it on Instagram. And you're going to just say Lauren Boebert is right over and over. Yeah. There you go. Is that okay? If I take that out of context?
01:00:37
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Never did I think I would agree with her on anything. And I don't. Let's make it clear. Yes. Back that up for a second. We don't agree here. But in an alternate universe, she has a point. Yeah, it's true.
01:00:56
Speaker
Oh, and also though, I also do want to mention too, like not just about sexuality, but she also says identity. And not making a choice about your gender identity is a choice also. And it's actually quite transphobic because
01:01:11
Speaker
as we know, as soon as a kid realizes this or knows this, it can be important to start going down that road and medically transition in terms of life fulfillment and identity acceptance and
01:01:26
Speaker
self-actualization. And so to say that nobody should come out as trans or start with trans therapy or hormone therapy, that is transphobic to wait until you're 21. Certainly, it's fine if you do want to wait or you didn't realize it until later in your life. But
01:01:47
Speaker
there should absolutely be no reason why you can't realize that at a younger age. And hopefully more and more kids will realize that about themselves if they are. Yeah. And also, folks love to talk about how life altering these adjustments are. And
01:02:04
Speaker
On the contrary, the least life-altering adjustments a trans person can make are puberty blockers. These are literally the slightest of changes to you because then you can stop taking them and listen to the doctors here. Also, fuck JK Rowling. I don't know if we need to talk about her, but I would just like to say fuck her. She is so fucking annoying.
01:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, we can say that. I mean, I just don't understand what these rich, successful white people think they're doing. I don't know, talking about anyone, and talking about children, talking about trans people. Don't you have other things to do? Stay in your lane.
01:02:47
Speaker
Yeah. Also, this kind of reminds me a little bit of what we were talking about before of projection and if people are really into a cause like this that is kind of bullshit, what have they had to do to themselves and what have they repressed in themselves? And
01:03:06
Speaker
I don't know. I didn't notice it when I first read it, but I did in my 20s. Harry Potter is pretty fucking queer. That book is queer. There's so many things about finding yourself and being authentic and being true to yourself. Harry lived in a fucking closet and was sad and depressed until he found out who he really was inside and then got to meet other people like him and explore all of his powers within and
01:03:35
Speaker
Yeah. And every time he went home, he had to go back in the closet for a little bit. Right. Right. Right. So how does somebody who wrote that not understand queerness or transness? I don't understand it unless there's something going on with her that she is repressing or I think there's some projection. Maybe I'm reading into it.
01:03:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't know what that projection like what is being projected in those situations, right? So it's hard to agree or disagree, I don't know. But I do think that like the point is that they're so just scared about this like
01:04:14
Speaker
more progressive version of the world that like, she is like a progressive in some ways, right? She talked about like, wizards, like wizards is like, you could see as just being like, trying to to your point, right? Like, it's it is a series about doing the impossible, all that kind of like childhood, you know, thematically, it's like a child, what succeeds in it gets people out of their shells and all. But when people take it that next step to like, actually meet youth where they're at,
01:04:44
Speaker
where they are trans and they are queer, then I think they just get overly defensive of their own version of things. And it's like, I don't know.
01:04:55
Speaker
Like I said, I think just like we need to remember at times that this is all just like a very Western perspective that we have. And like, you know, I am a cis white guy who grew up in like puritanical Massachusetts. So I am not the best voice to like bring us out of a Western binary like boxed in thinking.
01:05:16
Speaker
But those are the people we can be learning from, right? People who have lived without labels in quite the way that we have to rely on them, it seems. Right. And even just like learning more about like gender identities of like Indigenous folks, like, you know, and understanding the way that gender actually is constructed without this like Westernized, like umbrella kind of getting put over everything. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:44
Speaker
Okay, sorry to bring up JK Rowling. I don't know why I did it. Just fuck her and she's very unnecessary and her shit is unwarranted. She had her time.
Media Representation and Future of Queer Labels
01:05:57
Speaker
She served a purpose. Now she's done.
01:06:06
Speaker
Have I talked about Straight Up with you? Nope. The movie Straight Up? No. Okay, go. We're gonna talk about Straight Up for a second because Straight Up is the most like revolutionary depiction of queerness to me that I have seen. And I also just like intensely relate to it because it's about a
01:06:25
Speaker
man who identifies as gay initially and then just like is questioning whether he's gay and dates a woman, but also doesn't necessarily like thrive sexually with that woman. And it's just like lives in the gray of like, yes, this is uncomfortable, but I love this. Like we love each other where I'm not gay, but also
01:06:46
Speaker
my version of bisexuality, the way I experience it is in the gray in the way that you just are endlessly confused. Who was the guest? You had a guest recently on that was talking about being confused, endlessly confused about bisexuality. Jen, Jen. Oh, yeah. Jen Winston. Yes. Go back to listening to that episode that I enjoyed your talk, Jen.
01:07:13
Speaker
And I look forward to reading your book. The point being that straight up is just like a depiction of like messy queerness, messy bisexuality, boring, like where it's not fitting the mold in the same way. And yeah, I don't know. And he's a little bit of like a, I don't know, germaphobe neurotic about like random parts of sex. It's also just hilarious, but it all, and it also like unpacks like real anxiety that
01:07:38
Speaker
can be so central to the way that folks engage in relationships sexually and otherwise too, especially when you're a gay identified man trying to explore sex with women. Let me tell you, it's an anxious experience and straight up starts to tackle that a little bit.
01:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely something that we don't see very often in media. No. But it happens in MyPilot, so network executives greenlight MyPilot. Oh, yeah.
01:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, you stole my life. Yeah, I did steal your life. I kind of combined your life with my life and then deconstructed it into four different characters. But yeah, there's a there's a straight character and a gay character who both will realize they are by and attracted to the same people and then end up in kind of a polycule. Is there like a gender? Is your like gay character? Like, what is their gender expression like?
01:08:39
Speaker
Is that like an element of the story that they present as more gay or more family in some way?
01:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of have the gay and the straight guys are like old friends from growing up and they're like similar, both kind of more masculine, but the gay character has like queer flourishes a bit like you, like some tattoos and piercings and maybe some streak of blonde hair. And then the gay guy is dating a guy who is very feminine and I want the journey of that character to be
01:09:13
Speaker
that person is going to come out as trans eventually and is actually a woman character. Spoiler alert. Yeah, sorry. I mean, whatever. If the show ever gets greenlit, I'll remove this part of the episode. Well, whatever. If you listen to the podcast, you get insight. I mean, it's in the pilot that this character is exploring femininity. And I guess I'm going to call him he because at the time of this character,
01:09:40
Speaker
he identifies as he, but I see him identifying differently down the road. And so I want to write about that too, of what happens in a relationship when it's two gay men, but one of them is exploring their gender. What does that mean for both of them? And that stuff my partner and I have gone through as my partner has transitioned. Although for me, since I'm bi, it's kind of a non-issue, but it has been really interesting to see
01:10:09
Speaker
her go on that journey and reevaluate her sexuality. My partner now identifies as straight. But we're a queer couple because I'm bi, so we will be forever. But I don't know. It's just been an interesting, complex journey that we're still on. And so I don't know the answers. But that fluidity has been really different and fascinating and cool for me to see and be part of.
01:10:38
Speaker
And I want to, you know, I want to see that stuff on screen because I think more and more people are going to go through that. Yeah. Well, and sometimes there's not, I think that like the next phase is like not necessarily having a clear answer all the time, right? Like the next stage in these conversations, it seems to be that, that like we are kind of done trying to find the answer, but instead trying to just shift the mode of thinking, just shift the way in which we are observing the world in ourselves.
01:11:05
Speaker
Yep. And it's what we should be doing. Yeah. Just opening that up instead of telling people how, or even like building out more and more of a dictionary, like let us just chat through like what turns me on instead of trying to figure out the one word that's meant to capture it.
01:11:23
Speaker
Exactly. The by label is, in my opinion, very much a means to an end. And it's like the word that works right now to accomplish sort of these goals, and also to express myself personally, but almost more importantly, to change the way people think and accomplish these goals in society. And like, someday,
01:11:48
Speaker
Hopefully, the labels will not be the first thing we need to talk about every time. Yeah, exactly. This was not always the way. I think we have to remember that, and it doesn't always have to be the way in the future. Right. Yeah, exactly. Good place to end. Well said. Yeah. There was a full circle moment. We came back to what we sort of started talking about, so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for listening to two bye guys.
01:12:18
Speaker
Two Bye Guys is edited and produced by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our music is by Ross Mincer, our logo art is by Caitlin Wineman, and we are supported by the Gotham, formerly IFP. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.