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Hope is a Discipline with Andrew Hairston
3.5k Plays2 years ago
It’s almost election day, so we sat down with a civil rights attorney, recent candidate for Justice of the Peace in Texas, writer, activist, proud bisexual man of faith, and mega-fan of this podcast, Andrew Reginald Hairston! We chatted about voting and why it’s so important for queer people to get out the vote and protect our communities (GO VOTE PLEASE!), the freedom Andrew has experienced since coming out, how this podcast appeared at the right moment to help him on his bisexual journey, how his sexuality has impacted his work as a civil rights lawyer and prison abolitionist, and also how it has intersected with his faith community, and his newfound “limitless capacity for love” since embracing his whole identity.
We also talked about the highs and lows of dating, how our bisexuality has come into play in negative and abusive relationships we’ve had, and how to cultivate self-worth not just despite a complicated, sometimes-confusing identity but BECAUSE of it – and why we should not just ask for but demand the recognition and respect we deserve. Andrew eloquently reminds us that no matter what happens in the 2022 mid-terms, hope is a discipline, this is just one moment in a long struggle, we are building on the efforts of those who came before, and the future is bright if we work together to take the next step.
Follow Andrew on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewrhairston/
Follow Andrew on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AndrewRHairston
Visit Andrew’s Website: https://andrewrhairston.com/
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
Made on Zencastr #MadeOnZencastr
Try MagicMind and get 20% off your order or 40% off a subscription with promo code BIGUYS20: www.magicmind.co/biguys
Buy the FirmTech Tech Ring or Performance Ring: https://myfirmtech.com/collections/firmtech
We're going on a Bi+ trip to Maine in June 2023! Join the email list to get all the info: https://my.trovatrip.com/public/l/survey/rob-cohen
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Transcript
Introduction to Andrew Reginald Hairston
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome back to Two Bye Guys. As usual, we have another amazing episode for you. I'm very excited to interview this guest. He's a fan of the podcast. We've interacted a lot. He's been recommended to be on the podcast by our
00:00:27
Speaker
former guest host Gabriel, so I'm so excited to finally meet him and have him on the show and talk about some politics, among other things. Andrew Reginald Hairston is a civil rights attorney, writer, socialist, proud bisexual man of faith, and doting uncle who divides his time between Texas, Louisiana, and Oklahoma
00:00:49
Speaker
He is an Education Justice Project Director at Texas Appleseed, where he works to dismantle the school-to-prison pipeline and fight for equal educational opportunities in the state of Texas, primarily through public policy advocacy. He has also worked as a staff attorney at the Advancement Project and at the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, both in Washington, D.C.
00:01:11
Speaker
In 2019, he was named a Law for Black Lives fellow. He loves, fights for, and writes about Black people. And as I said, he's a fan of this podcast, and always one of the first people to like our posts. So I'm very excited. I always see his name pop up before I get even
Identity and Personal Journey
00:01:28
Speaker
logged off. Andrew Einstein is back.
00:01:31
Speaker
I don't think I ever go inactive on Instagram. I love it. You get the ball rolling every day. Absolutely. So welcome. Welcome finally to two by guys, Andrew, AKA uncle drew. Thank you so much, Rob. It's such an honor to be here and to just bring this, this love to the two by guys universe, which helped me in my coming out journey considerably.
00:01:56
Speaker
Oh, interesting. That's awesome. I would love to hear about that and get into that. But you know how we always start. Do I even need to ask the question? We were laughing about the cute TikToks, right? And I loved the one about the introductory questions. So yeah, that bio was very complimentary. A little bit more
00:02:16
Speaker
Just for the podcast interview, I'm a black bisexual man of faith. I appreciate that part. And yeah, that feels like really integral to how I moved through the world, both as kind of a person who has attempted his hand at electoral politics and as someone who's fighting for racial justice in the 21st century. Cool. Awesome. And I am assuming, but just to check, you use he, him pronouns.
00:02:45
Speaker
You know, I really appreciate your thoughtful reflection on this, right? I have no qualms about being identified as a man, but I'm also not tied to manhood as my identity in this like patriarchal way, right? Like totally fine with him. I've used he they on work email signatures. I don't want
00:03:08
Speaker
and friends upon trans folks or non-binary folks, but also recognize that like sexuality, gender is much more complex than we give credit to.
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah, cool. It's also like, I've been starting to use they them for people I don't know, or like an imaginary person I'm talking about, like a hypothetical. And the more I do it, the more natural it's becoming. And then the more weird it is to hear he and she so often, totally, even when you don't know the person. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Breaking the boundary in every way.
00:03:45
Speaker
Yeah. So I really want to talk about your social justice work and the law stuff and you ran for office, which we'll talk about all these amazing things. But let's talk about the bi journey and you said the podcast was helpful, so it must have been relatively recent for you. So tell us how you've started to realize that and then started to come out. What's the journey been like for you?
00:04:10
Speaker
So I knew that I was attracted to guys when I was a child, right? And the man of faith part comes into focus when I think about probably being an 11 year old child and silently praying in my bed, right? Like don't let me be attracted to men, right? You know, I wouldn't even say it out loud because it was that off limits, right? And so I just really suppressed it and impacted
00:04:36
Speaker
You know tightly in my mind, you know went to college and then went to law school right after Went back to dc for a little bit of background. I went to college in dc and law school in louisiana And then like you said returned to dc to start my career And it is i'm just going through my early 20s, right? I'm, you know still exclusively dating women at this point Right just like kind of trying to make it work
00:05:02
Speaker
And then I'm like, you know, kind of recognizing these inflection points with me and at various points of my growth, right, you know, in high school and college and law school, right. I'm like, Oh, maybe I just really thought he was a good friend. You know, I
00:05:19
Speaker
I thought like maybe he's brother material. And then I got to be about 26 years old, right? And was in San Francisco for a work conference and took an Uber from Alameda to San Francisco downtown and had this Uber driver. I'm not sure the gender of the Uber driver probably
00:05:47
Speaker
if I just think back, probably a trans man, and we're having this amazing conversation, right, about music and just like completely vibing. And my coworkers are dead silent in the back seat and they're like. And when we got out of the Uber at the hotel, they're like, if we would've stayed in that Uber for five more minutes, like absolutely numbers were gonna be exchanged from our perspective.
00:06:14
Speaker
And so I get back to DC and I'm like,
00:06:17
Speaker
I think I'm bi. You know, I think I like men, right? I know I like men. I'm going to say it out loud. And then in true Andrew style, I was like, well, now that I've admitted to myself that I'm bi, it's going to be easy. I'm just going to tell the first man who I think is attractive that, you know, I like him and I'm bi and then we're going to live happily ever after. Yeah. How did that work out? I'll tell you after this guy in the coffee shop. I'm like, I think you're very handsome and bisexual.
00:06:51
Speaker
Pretty much, you know, did not talk after that, but that was, you know, probably instrumental in the journey. Later on in 2018, I
00:07:04
Speaker
told my parents and sister, I was going to keep it there, to spare them some of the negative reflection. And they just did not have good reactions to it. So I kind of retreated inwardly.
00:07:19
Speaker
And then I moved to Austin in 2019 and two by guys came out in the fall of 2019. I was sitting there as I liked every Instagram post right then and do now I would like be waiting and counting down for the next two by guys episode and would just be like, this is articulating such eloquent reflections on gender and sexuality and comporting with my experience so beautifully.
00:07:50
Speaker
And then I got to Labor Day of 2021 and finally tweeted out, this is the best thing that I've written in my opinion. I'm black, I'm fat, I'm bisexual, I'm a prison abolitionist. That thing went wild, 500 views on the Instagram story. I'm like, I know my haters are all up in this land. But I am free. And the truth that had been building up to that point, I was 30 years old at that point.
00:08:20
Speaker
Absolutely. I will just say this unequivocally is the truth and it's about to guide me into this period of clairvoyance in my life.
00:08:27
Speaker
That is so awesome. OK, wait, I have a question. But I also just want to say thank you for saying that. It's very nice compliments. And I want to put this out there, not because it's about me. But it's like when Alex and I started this, we didn't consider ourselves very eloquent about this stuff. And we would rerecord shit and edit shit. And we were very nervous that we were going to lead people astray because we were not
00:08:56
Speaker
experts on any of this. We were just going through it and we connected with each other at this support group. And I say that not to say, oh, we were better than we thought, but because for everyone out there, even if you don't think you're quite ready to talk about this stuff, you probably actually are. Wow.
00:09:18
Speaker
I mean, I'm so glad it helped you at that time, even though for me, I look back and I'm like, that was not fully formed and that was just kind of rambly, but it helps. And so we all have a lot more power inside us and stuff inside us, I think, than we give ourselves credit for sometimes.
00:09:41
Speaker
So getting better and better, but you started a mountain peak, right? And to see your evolution over three years, you and Alex and all of the guests that have come since, right? To see you in real time grappling with these really difficult concepts, right? And even as we become more sophisticated, we understand that the more that we know, the less that we do, right? But you also just have this earnest,
00:10:09
Speaker
introspection and inquisitive nature that I think is creating a beautiful community online. Thank you. That's very nice to hear. I think that's going to be the clip.
00:10:21
Speaker
I'm like, where am I gonna share my Instagram story? I'm like, I think that's it. I'll share it. I'll share people praising me. That's great. Absolutely. Okay, so something you said I thought is really interesting, like, now you're free, you came out and you feel free. So like, what makes you say that? And what, looking back, what was it like? Did you realize you weren't free in certain ways? Or did you only realize it after?
Self-Acceptance and Authenticity
00:10:48
Speaker
Or how did things change actually?
00:10:51
Speaker
Growing up as a black kid and a black adult in the 20th and 21st centuries, I think I really honed in on this need to be
00:11:01
Speaker
perfect in word and deed, right, to really nail it, execute it well, to go to school. You know, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer when I was younger and loved John Grisham books and had a couple of aunts and cousins who were attorneys, but also got to law school, as I mentioned, straight after undergrad and was absolutely exhausted.
00:11:25
Speaker
And told my parents at one point, I just wanna quit and come to Oklahoma where they live. And they're like, well, you've come this far, you should just keep at it. And if you come here, they got jokingly said this, you won't have a bed if you don't come with the JD.
00:11:42
Speaker
I am appreciative for their push, but very much so encapsulated how I viewed professional and personal pursuits up to that point. It was very much so living for my parents. I'm glad I did finish law school and I'm really glad at how this journey has unfolded.
00:12:01
Speaker
I finished law school in 2016, but coming out as bisexual and just fully accepting the freedom and the lack of giving the fuck that is associated with that, it's like I absolutely don't have to be perfect in that way that I built up.
00:12:20
Speaker
this very unrealistic expectation that I've set up on myself and I get to just grapple with these concepts that have been building some truths that I've known and some questions that I have had since I was younger and now can explore without shame or stigma in my mind and you know can say it to the world and to my parents right and to my sister and not
00:12:48
Speaker
have any, this sounds callous, consideration for how people perceive me, but truly, I'm not asking for acceptance, I'm telling you. And it is what it is at this point, I'm bisexual, right? And if you want to ask me questions and kind of contend with this part of my identity, I'm happy to be that resource. But if you come with,
00:13:13
Speaker
dogma or your criticism or trying to instill shame, I'm shutting it down. That freedom in that just self-assuredness has been beautiful in this phase of my life.
00:13:28
Speaker
That's so cool. Was it like, was the buy thing sort of like the tipping point? Were there other things that you had trouble talking about about yourself or you were self-conscious about or was this like kind of the big thing? Did it relate to anything else?
00:13:45
Speaker
That was the big thing, right? People find us are just gonna love this, family and friends. So I'm theoretically polyamorous, right? But I think I'm thinking the bisexual stereotype that, oh, you have twice as many options or more options, right? No, I'm twice as bad at dating. Everybody hates me romantically, right?
00:14:17
Speaker
It's hard. My best friend Catherine's gonna watch this like Andrew. Don't beat yourself up. But I think it kind of allowed me to understand, as you again and Alex have really dealt with these concepts in real time in a public fashion with us, right?
00:14:37
Speaker
Let me think like, okay, there are so many relationships in my life, right? Maybe there were certain men who I can look back to and say that they sparked some interest in me. But all of these relationships, like a great deal of relationships, right? Friendships and even some social acquaintances, it feels like there are more elements of complexity, right? And there's this ability to not have it fit into this cookie cutter mold.
00:15:05
Speaker
And so coming out as bisexual also kind of opened up the possibility of, maybe it's not explicitly named in certain relationships, but the beauty of humanity in the 21st century is the varying ways in which we can connect with each other and maybe not have it fit a mold.
00:15:26
Speaker
Right, exactly. I wasn't trying to lead you, but I did ask that question because I think for me and for many people, I found my sexuality was this big thing. It was the biggest, and it was the biggest fear. And then
00:15:42
Speaker
once I did come out, I almost didn't realize that this would happen. But all these other littler things started feeling easier to be more open about and to be comfortable with whatever I like. Whether it's like, I want to wear more pink clothing, or like, what music do I like to listen to? Like, I suddenly became less ashamed of everything, all these little things, and more free to express myself however I wanted to.
00:16:10
Speaker
I love your interview with Mimi Wong. You know, all of them, right? But just like little things, right? Like I'm gonna wear the bisexual pen, right? I'm gonna wear a little bit more, not ostentatious clothing, right? But just like, wear whatever clothing feels right for me, right? It might be a little flashy. My parents, when I was younger, might have said, this is a little bit too showy. We're not gonna let you wear that. But
00:16:35
Speaker
as a 31-year-old bisexual man, I get to absolutely wear and do what I want and show up in the world in ways that make sense to me. And I have deepened relationships with men. I have a book idea some maybe like 25 years down the road where I write about the men of my life.
Creative Projects and Endorsements
00:16:56
Speaker
And it'd be kind of like these successive chapters, maybe like, you know, lovers, you know, friends, and then kind of build up to like my cousins, uncles, and my father, and just be like, even as I've come out and said the thing that is, you know, unforgivable, right? That I'm queer, that I'm bisexual, right? You know, in this season of my life, I've been able to build on these relationships with these men,
00:17:21
Speaker
in a way that has been so pleasantly unexpected and I think deeply gratified. So if you follow our social media, you have probably already heard this exciting news, but I got a book deal for my oral history about bi-married men. I'm very excited. I'm also very nervous to actually write the rest of the book because I only wrote part of it as a proposal.
00:17:49
Speaker
And I have to really sit down and write the rest of it and do some more interviews, but I'm extremely excited and I can't wait to share these stories with you. There's a few of them that I recorded like two years ago and I'm dying to share them. I really found them fascinating. They helped me so much in my journey.
00:18:07
Speaker
If you're interested in participating and you didn't see the links, there's a link in our link tree for a form to fill out. I only need a few more interviews now, but I would love to have a database of bi-married men because I hope this is an ongoing project for the future.
00:18:22
Speaker
Anyway, I bring this up because right around the time I got the book deal, like really, I think it was that day, I received a sample of this product that I am really enjoying and really has helped me get started on the book. It's called Magic Mind, and it's a tiny little sort of energy drink. It's almost like a little shot. It's got some really wild stuff in it. And honestly, I've been very pleasantly surprised
00:18:48
Speaker
by how well it's worked and how much it's helped me focus and concentrate but not feel jittery. So Magic Man recommends you take the shot with or soon after your first morning cup of coffee. And I drink so much coffee, I need it when I wake up, I feel very weird without it.
00:19:07
Speaker
And then I have a few cups throughout the day, maybe three or four cups. That's down from what it once was when I was working in an office every day. I would be drinking coffee at 7 p.m. I've thankfully got it down, but I still, you know, in the afternoon sometimes need that energy.
00:19:26
Speaker
But I also, when I drink too much coffee, I don't like the way it makes me feel. I get acid reflux, I get those jitters. So Magic Men says try with your first cup of coffee and you won't need those extra cups after. And like, I was skeptical. I will be honest, I was skeptical.
00:19:44
Speaker
but I decided to give it a try. I got this sample and it's true. It really worked. I had that morning cup which wakes me up and I'm probably kind of addicted to it and I need it when I wake up. And then I had the magic mind shot and I really didn't feel like I needed any more coffee the rest of the day.
00:20:05
Speaker
And this was right when I got the book deal, so I wanted to get started and get a jump start and accomplish a bunch that first week. And I got so much done. I was really focused. I could keep going throughout the day, and I didn't need as many breaks. And I didn't need the coffee. I didn't get the jitters. I just felt like,
00:20:28
Speaker
normal and clear and awake and like focused on what I was doing. I don't really know how it works. It's kind of magic. I guess that's why they call it magic mind. It does seem like magic. It's got new tropics and adaptogens. Don't know what that is, but it's cool. It has matcha in it, which has much less caffeine than coffee but sort of extends the benefits of the caffeine.
00:20:54
Speaker
I have been really impressed with Magic Mind. I really like it. I'm gonna keep using it. I'm getting more and I'm gonna probably use it every day and see if I can cut down on coffee and be more focused in my work. So if you, like me, have struggled with focus or staying awake or drinking too much coffee, I highly recommend it and you should try out the sample pack or
00:21:16
Speaker
get a month's worth. I also have a 20% off code to share with you guys. It is byguys20. That's P-I-G-U-I-S, the number 20. To use it, you go to www.magicmind.co, not .com, .co, slash byguys, B-I-G-U-I-S. That's www.magicmind.co slash byguys.
00:21:41
Speaker
use the code BUYGUYS20. If you use it to get a subscription, it's 40% off for the next 10 days. So if you use that code in the next 10 days and get a subscription, it's 40% off. Highly recommend. Check it out. You won't be disappointed. I think like me, you will be pleasantly surprised at how well it works.
00:22:06
Speaker
Tell us more about that. And also you mentioned dating. So tell us about like in general relationships in your life since coming out, like how has it changed? What's been positive? Have, have you had negative experiences related to your sexuality? Yes. So I've never had boyfriend to
Dating Experiences and Life Lessons
00:22:24
Speaker
this day. Right. And I've tried to make that thing happen. Um, I have had some really passionate
00:22:37
Speaker
lovers. I've really been able to explore this untapped energy in that regard, particularly with men, since I came out going on four and a half years ago.
00:22:53
Speaker
but also have explored deeper connections with women, right? And for a long time, you know, almost in my mind, in this like formulaic lawyer way, I was like, why I've suppressed the attraction to Memphis so long that I'm gonna exclusively focus on it. But in 2022, I've kind of opened up the realm of possibility that, you know, connections with women are still very much so a part of
00:23:21
Speaker
my attraction and how I move through the world. And quite often, even when it doesn't lead to a physical connection with women, it will be this incredibly gratifying emotional connection, right? And will be something even if we choose not to date, right? Will be a foundation for a good friendship moving forward or deeper relationship.
00:23:48
Speaker
I wrote a short story recently and won a contest for my local coffee shop in East Austin where I live about the absolute nadir of my dating life. I post this on Instagram. I'll share another link to the story, but basically met
00:24:10
Speaker
this woman, I'm like, damn, how deep am I gonna go on this story on this interview? But like met this woman in March and April of 2022, and it was an absolute whirlwind for like truly 30 days, and then led in this very tangible betrayal, you know, in an intimate setting. And both was just like so shocking in the moment, but also
00:24:40
Speaker
very clarifying on what boundaries I was going to set forth in my personal life from that point on. And I also a couple of years ago had this experience with a guy who was just very manipulative and took advantage, right? And it's like, okay, these two experiences together from 2020 to 2022 have formed the basis
00:25:03
Speaker
for maybe not always getting it right but having some base expectations and realizing at this point in my bisexual journey that I am bringing things to the table to potential romantic partners or connections I make that are worth me seeing the reciprocity of how I'm treated.
00:25:24
Speaker
And yeah. Uh, so at this point I'm single. This will be another day to buy guys universe, you know, coming to my DMS, tell me I'm handsome. Say you're coming to Austin. This out by, you know, hear that everyone take it to my favorite drink spot. Yeah. But even in the pain of dating since coming out as by, it's been very, very beautiful in the lessons and part of it. Yeah.
00:25:54
Speaker
I mean, we don't have to go into it, but I do think it is important to talk also about negative relationships we've had because those can form our identity and how we negotiate boundaries and consent. And actually, one of the
00:26:10
Speaker
women I dated right before I came out, it was a very bad relationship. For me, she didn't want to let me leave the relationship. Were you out of his pride to her? No. I wasn't even really out to myself, but afterwards, I just kind of was afraid to date women for a little while after that because she faked a pregnancy with me to try to keep me in the relationship. It was quite abusive, not physically, but verbally.
00:26:40
Speaker
Thank you for sharing. Yeah, and it really was, I mean, it was not fun, but it was part of how I began exploring my sexuality, and it really, you know, had a negative immediate impact, but sort of led to some interesting developments. Yeah. Do you want to share more of what happened with your story? Should we just direct people? Yeah, I'll share both the guy and the gal, right? So with the guy,
00:27:08
Speaker
And there felt this sense of shame at this point, because this was in 2020, before I was out publicly, I was out to like a few select friends and family. And so I think he was able to capitalize on that and say, well, there's still some sense of shame that Andrew feels about his sexuality.
00:27:26
Speaker
Knew him from my college days, right? Reconnected when I was in California for a work trip. And then as the pandemic settled in, it was like very clear that he was job insecure, right? And you needed some material support. And so I created a pathway for him to come to Austin and move into my apartment, right?
00:27:51
Speaker
And it was one of these kind of like overpriced, one bedroom apartments in South Austin, if any listeners are familiar with the geography, and they kind of require that any non-religion person would be added to your lease. And so like that was another element of it. Within like four weeks of being in that situation or less, I kind of realized the mistake I'd made
00:28:17
Speaker
and kind of took corrective steps to get out of that. But I also understand how, you know, that could have gone a different way, right? And I was pretty adamant about certain protocols, like it's early in the pandemic, only me and you need to be in the space, right? We still know, you know, what COVID-19 fully is, right? Two and a half years later, we still don't fully know. But he was just kind of flouting that rule, I guess, like meeting folks on Tinder and like,
00:28:45
Speaker
bringing them, it was, it was just wild, right? But I was, I was glad to extricate myself from that. And then with the woman, it was basically like kind of recognize my kind heartedness. And this is where the faith comes in, right? I really strive to be a person who is particularly in relationship to other black people, always showing the utmost solidarity. I know how fucking hard it is.
00:29:11
Speaker
I know how, you know, very recently, you know, within the past year have driven Lyft and Uber to make ends meet, you know, even as I'm, you know, a salary nonprofit employee, I know how hard it is. But recognized, I think in me, this woman recognized in me this benevolence that is kind of unchecked, right? If I kind of judge you worthy, even in an initial meeting, then, you know, you will get some material benefits from me, right?
00:29:42
Speaker
And so that kind of flowed right. I think she was in a similar position where like job was a little unstable. She ended up getting an hourly position somewhere in our courtship. But, you know, I'm willing to open my home and buy food and transport her to and from her father's house where she was staying. And then it ended. Sorry to friends listening.
00:30:09
Speaker
Uh, but ended up with her, you know, fucking two guys within, uh, a 24 hour period of this weekend that she was like staying in my house, like all of her shit here. I'm, you know, very sex positive, right? Like have sex with whom you want whenever you want, but when it is truly on my dime and you know, when you have not even got to try out the next six hours where you're like, Oh, I just like,
00:30:39
Speaker
fuck this dude, Andrew left, you know, because he was in the living room when we snuck off the fuck. And then I'm texting Andrew the next morning, like, is it okay for me to come get my stuff? It's like, maybe think about that before.
00:30:59
Speaker
Yep. Yep. You bring it on me, Rob. I was like, I was like, damn, I'm going to be good today and not talk about the most, you know, iterate things of 2022. That's what I do. I pick up on the stuff that's in the margins of like what we're comfortable talking about. And like, that's what I like to talk about.
00:31:24
Speaker
And I'm very glad coming off of Buy Visibility Month, right? Coming off of September, right? Like it is so beautiful to see all these glorious Buy People, Buy Plus people sharing their truth with the world. They're also highlighting within the month the deep pain that we go through.
00:31:43
Speaker
the domestic violence, the mental health struggles, right? You know, one kind of small thing, my mother has gotten a little bit better over the past year of saying, one of her kind of exhortations is that I'm praying for you, a wife, right? And she would say that a lot leading up to me coming out of his vibe. And she's been a bit better over the past like six months or so saying like, I'm praying for your person, for a spouse, right?
00:32:10
Speaker
But it's kind of recently revert back just slightly to like, oh, you know, when you find a woman, when you find a wife, I'm like, yeah, or a husband or a spouse, right?
00:32:22
Speaker
So to think about by visibility month just passed, right? Like it's the 360 degree experience, right? It's the beauty of claiming this part of yourself that I'm sure at some point any of us felt stigma, deep shame about, but also saying when you do come out, it's rarely fully easy.
00:32:46
Speaker
Right. Right. Well, you mentioned at the beginning, it's like the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And I mean, I feel exactly that way. Like I've done almost 50 episodes of this podcast, learned so many things and talked about so many things. And sometimes I feel like more confused than ever because there's always another layer and a new thing to consider. And so, yeah, it's hard.
00:33:14
Speaker
And then my passion for love, right? I'm amazed that people are like, oh yeah, I've been in love like two or three times in my life. I'm like, I've been in love two or three times this month. Baby, I fell in love right on the corner going to my coffee shop. And then they're like, oh, this motherfucker.
00:33:42
Speaker
But you know, laying that like really earnest spirit of benevolence and love lead me, right? And you know, I don't know at this point, right, whether I'll be long-term partnered or end up married, right? But kind of know that there's this inherent spirit that has been made clear by my bisexuality and naming that to the world, that there is truly limitless love.
00:34:08
Speaker
And I get to lean into that in whatever way makes sense for me over the decades to come. That's so awesome. Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of love to give and there's so much joy that comes with that and then there can be people that take advantage of that and we have to learn boundaries and negotiations, but I like that limitless love idea.
00:34:38
Speaker
You mentioned your faith, which is a good segue. I want to talk about your faith. Tell us a little about your faith background and how has it intersected with your bi identity after coming out. And also, you know, is your faith connected to your identity as a black man and how does that all intersect?
Intersection of Faith and Identity
00:34:57
Speaker
I will start this answer with my parents, right, who are Black Southerners who were raised in the Baptist tradition. My mother finished grad school in Houston in the mid 80s and then moved to North Carolina to start her career and joined this Baptist church in Winston-Salem where my father was born and raised.
00:35:17
Speaker
And she started teaching Sunday school, right? I was telling the story the other day and smiling so hard. And he sat in on one of the lessons that she gave. He's a young associate minister at this point. And he comes up to her after she finishes and he's like, are you a philosopher? I'm like, this is why I fall in love two or three times a month. These folks already knew in the late 80s as they got together, right?
00:35:44
Speaker
So my father has been a minister for 35 years. And as I was a young child, we moved throughout the country as children, me and my sister. We were both born in North Carolina and then lived in Indiana, Missouri, and Ohio.
00:36:02
Speaker
For the moves from North Carolina to Indiana and then Indiana to Missouri, these were career changes for my mother. But then Missouri to Ohio and then Ohio to Oklahoma, where my parents now reside, were for pastoral callings for my father.
00:36:19
Speaker
And so I had these really beautiful experiences with Black churches across the country, especially in the Midwest. And then, you know, from second to sixth grade, I actually went to private Catholic school in downtown St. Louis, Missouri. I'm reflecting on this now all these years later, if that made me as radical as I am, or maybe, you know, in spite of
00:36:44
Speaker
It was private education, I'm radical. But it led me to deeply leaning into faith, right, when I was an undergrad, when I was in law school, kind of continued joining the churches of my father's divinity school classmates during that probably seven year period of my life. And then when I moved to Austin, you know, it was pretty clear
00:37:08
Speaker
that I wanted to join a historic black church and keep that going. There probably was just a little bit of attention in 2019, right? Because again, I'm out to myself, but not out publicly. And it's like, if I join this church, which I did join a reconstruction era church that's operated since 1875 on the east side of Austin, there will be a very particular perhaps expectation of how I show up in the world, right?
00:37:37
Speaker
But then I run for office when I'm 30 years old and I'm in the paper, the local periodical saying like, oh yeah, I'm a black bisexual man, right? And I give the fuck who reads it.
00:37:52
Speaker
And I'm like, sure my fellow congregants are saying this, right? And as you saw my website and across social media, I don't hide it from anyone at this point. You can see by somewhere on every social tag. But even as I went through that campaign and lost, there was this affirmation from the church and this kind of ability to hold me down. I think despite what's on the public record at this point, this kind of taboo topic,
00:38:22
Speaker
And the amazing thing, Rob, of the past six weeks is that my pastor reached out and asked me to join the Deacon board at the church. So now, tomorrow, I'm going to my third Deacon training as a Deacon of Ebenezer Third Baptist Church. And in church these days, I don't lead with it. I wouldn't hide it if it came up, right?
00:38:51
Speaker
It's plastered everywhere from my point of view, right? And they're like, still, you get to be in one of the most significant spiritual leadership positions of this church because we see how you are. We see you're a man of the people.
00:39:08
Speaker
of community. We see that you're showing up in ways that we think Jesus Christ would have showed up 2000 years ago. Like as a socialist, as a person attacking the empire, right? And we're gonna honor that even if we don't fully understand or, you know, haven't fully wrapped our heads around that aspect of your identity. But
00:39:34
Speaker
We're still gonna trust this leadership that you're displaying. That's certainly a great first step of that community to take. I mean, of that acceptance and willingness to engage and listen. And it also sounds like you're providing a really positive example of just by being yourself of what bisexuality or queerness is. Because I think people think it's this other thing so often.
00:40:01
Speaker
You're just kind of showing them like it's this aspect of you that Can can fit with everything else that that the church values that makes me that more loving that more Able to remember your birthday your anniversary. I'm the ultimate you're gonna get a card in the mail If you if you give me your address
00:40:26
Speaker
And you know, makes me this effusively, community driven person I am. And it's absolutely not an aspect of shame for any of us.
00:40:36
Speaker
Right, right. It's all stronger. Yeah, I mean, I think it is a great first step, like what what you're describing and what's going on. But I, I also think a lot of the things you're describing that came with your by awareness and coming out and this idea of limitless love, actually shows how much of an asset queerness can be to religion. And you know, the few kind of queer religious scholars we've talked to on here, like,
00:41:06
Speaker
Benjamin Perry. Yeah, like Benjamin Perry is who I'm thinking of. It isn't just something to be accepted, but actually it can advance the religion and the community. And so I think you're on your way there. It sounds like- Great gift.
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah. Have you found much actual explicit queerness in a faith-based community or also black queer community? Have you found either of those in Texas? Man. Or is that difficult? You know, I might give it five years, right? And
00:41:47
Speaker
I imagine it's hard to find, to be honest, especially in Texas. Hard to find. But y'all, come on in. The water is fine. I ain't shit. I'm thinking of specific folks in my faith community. I'm like, come on in. The water is fine. There's beauty and love and acceptance here and the ability to be yourself more fully. But yeah, explicitly, Black queer faith community is right. I think it's a real
00:42:19
Speaker
kind of lacking aspect of life in Texas in 2022. But, you know, more and more, you know, with each passing year, it feels like the possibilities are there. Awesome. I look forward to seeing whatever work you do in that space. I'll be delivering, you know, the speech with my bi flag and, you know, my like, my sermonic reflection as a Deacon, you know, if I'm a bisexual. Awesome. Cool.
00:42:52
Speaker
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00:43:16
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:44:25
Speaker
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00:44:36
Speaker
Let's talk about your work, and you mentioned a little about high expectations of you growing up, and that led you to law school.
Career and Advocacy
00:44:46
Speaker
So what's it been like since then? How did you decide to focus your career on civil rights and abolition? And what does that actually look like in your life? How has that played out?
00:45:00
Speaker
Totally. So I knew I was going to be a lawyer or wanted to be a lawyer when I was a child, but kind of envisioned being a public defender or a criminal defense attorney as I went in the law school. I was even going to team up with an aunt of mine, my mother's youngest sister, who lives in Northeast Louisiana where they grew up and
00:45:21
Speaker
maybe kind of take on criminal defense work that way. But then in 2014, as I'm entering my second year of law school, Michael Brown was murdered in Ferguson. And that resonated for me because my parents, sister and I lived in Florissant, Missouri.
00:45:36
Speaker
and adjacent suburb to Ferguson for about six years from 1998 to 2004. And so it got the gears turning. I'm like, well, criminal defense is certainly a meritorious calling and very worthy, but perhaps I could do more work that could impact this
00:45:57
Speaker
perniciously evil system of police murdering black people. And so I thought of this church that I attended while I was at Howard and the associate minister who was also the general counsel of Advancement Project.
00:46:15
Speaker
and messaged him on Facebook and said, well, Rev, you know, if you have any opportunities for internships, I'd be very interested in summer of 2015. And he put me in touch with the staff attorneys who were running the program.
00:46:29
Speaker
you know, the rest is history. As I got to DC, an intern for advancement project, I really fell in love with this work. Then and now they focus on border protection, right, kind of extension of the franchise to folks who have been shut out, formerly incarcerated people and folks on probation and parole, but also the opportunity to learn, right, the smell in the school prison pipeline, which you so,
00:46:55
Speaker
so grandly described in my bio, but also putting forth the affirmative equal educational opportunities, right? These schools where, you know, black and brown children, LGBTQ young people and kids with disabilities can be free of arbitrary standardized tests and can be free of the fear of racially discriminatory school closings and, you know, in Texas, like the impact of environmental racism
00:47:20
Speaker
and this lack of investment in the physical infrastructure of the school, that can prevent the best learning outcomes. And so I kept doing that work throughout this internship, knew that I wanted to come back to DC for a bit, at least a few years after law school, and then that led to the Lawyers Committee and the Advancement Project, staff attorney roles.
00:47:44
Speaker
What is so interesting, Rob, I am almost a year removed from a very anti-black investigation by the Texas Board of Law Examiners where, you know, I'll share with the listeners, if you go to DC as a lawyer for more than 90 days and you have a physical office in DC, you have to apply for the DC bar. It is clear cut and dry in the DC rules.
00:48:10
Speaker
But so many lawyers in DC will go up with state bar membership elsewhere, right? Like me, I took the Louisiana bar right after I finished law school in Louisiana, passed it, and went out to work. And we'll use their state bar membership to engage and work in whatever jurisdiction. And also use a mechanism called pro-hive DJ special admission, where you just use a lawyer's bar card in that jurisdiction to practice.
00:48:38
Speaker
And the Texas Word of Law examiners, as I pretty much started the application for the Texas Bar when I moved to Texas in 2019, over a two-year period, gradually argued that because I didn't apply for the DC Bar, I had engaged in the unauthorized practice of law from 2016 to 2019, and had displayed fraud, misrepresentation, and deceit.
00:49:06
Speaker
I got this later in June, 2021. I was like, what? My boss in Texas Applesey very graciously got me a lawyer who I, you know, started to pay for. And my parents
00:49:24
Speaker
And these, I can get into this a little bit more, but my parents and niece came down from Oklahoma to Austin in November, 2021. My aunt came up from Houston and watched my niece in the vestibule. And my parents and I sat in this 90 minute hearing where the primary question is, does this man fundamentally have the character of practice law?
00:49:49
Speaker
I tell you a story in this way for two reasons, right? It fortified my commitment to racial justice advocacy because the personal experience, I tell you Rob, aside from not applying to the DC bar, I had died every I and crossed every T. I done everything right. I had gone to school. I had engaged in my career. I had had this sense of altruism and how I showed up in my professional and personal lives.
00:50:16
Speaker
And they are like, we are going to hone in on you, make you pay thousands of dollars in legal fees for after the hearing concluded, the three judge panel to within 15 minutes say, oh, he is unanimously certified to practice law in the state of Texas. Why the fuck did you waste our time?
00:50:37
Speaker
Why did they? Is there an answer? Rob, I went to Twitter meetings this year. You can do public comment for two minutes in any kind of state government meeting. And I went up in that thing in March and June, Rob, and they knew my fat ass.
00:50:58
Speaker
Thanks for having me coming from two miles away. I would say this is the most anti-black racism that I have ever experienced, and I'm a civil rights lawyer.
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah. Y'all don't like black people and I don't care that y'all have the rainbow coalition up in here, a black woman general counsel, an Asian American staff attorney. This is a systemic issue, which you identified in this letter that you sent to me that I fight the school prison pipeline. I fight barriers to access to the ballot box.
00:51:35
Speaker
Y'all are racist, sit with that. And wait on me to see you at some point, just let me get my records together. But it also arrived, this was two months after I came out publicly. And I'll go into this more as well, but I blocked my parents and sister for the month of September, 2021. Because again, when it came out publicly, they did not have good reactions.
00:52:03
Speaker
And I told them to be methodical in how they responded because as I shared earlier, this is a statement. This is not a request for acceptance.
00:52:13
Speaker
But then, basically, at that point, they were a month unblocked. And these folks, my parents, who I love with all of my heart, even when we're fighting, had to come down. And even as they are dealing with this deep spiritual uncertainty, because they feel like in their minds it's wrong, they're like, this man who we gave birth to in 1991, his character, his impeccable character,
00:52:43
Speaker
And both of my parents offered these beautiful reflections in the hearing and really affirmed that, you know, this is our child, this is our son, the doting uncle, the arbiter of family conflict, right? Our pro bono lawyer, he is absolutely willing and able and capable to practice law in an ethical way.
00:53:09
Speaker
And so all of that substantive knowledge has built really for seven years since I interned at Advancement Project. And then truly over the course of the pandemic, Rob, these personal inflection points with my bar hearing, with me coming out publicly, it's like, oh, not only am I advocating for this in a professional sense, but truly
00:53:34
Speaker
the personal is political and I'm able to bring myself fully into my work because I've been through the bullshit and come out on the other side.
00:53:45
Speaker
Yeah, that is amazing that it was all happening right at the same time and it's kind of, even though it must have felt like a lot to be going through at once, it's kind of nice you got that validation from your family embracing all of you even at this sort of moment they might have been unsure.
00:54:08
Speaker
And Rob, it's not perfect, but like this 11 month period with my parents, right? Like, I mean, we don't fully get each other all the time, the three of us, but like these, you know, deep reflections. Usually my father and I talk about politics. He's like, well, where's Frump gonna go to jail? I'm like. Yeah, good question.
00:54:33
Speaker
I'm like, damn, technically a prison abolitionist, but you know. For some people. But anyway, they're a piece of shit. And then my mother, you know, who even when I, over the past 31 years, have had disagreements with my mother, as anyone will with their parents, I'm like, my mother is like this angelic force.
00:55:01
Speaker
of good, I just, you know, admire deeply. And it has allowed, to that point earlier, of deepened, authentic relationships to let that flow between my parents and me because there is that less shame and stigma. Yeah, cool. I want to ask a quick question about abolition and defunding the police, just because, like, I was reading a little on your something you wrote.
Vision for Justice and Activism
00:55:28
Speaker
But I'm curious, like,
00:55:30
Speaker
When a lot of the opponents of abolition or defunding the police will say like, well, you need something in this place. You can't just get rid of this thing. And it's always like, yeah, obviously, there is stuff to come in. So I read on your side, you're talking about getting police officers out of schools and replacing them with more school counselors and more appropriate resources that will actually benefit the kids and not just
00:55:59
Speaker
treat them as criminals. So can you talk a little about that? And like, what does abolition or defunding actually look like in reality? Because it's not just suddenly that prisons disappear. Right, right. Certainly, it's twofold, right? It is indeed the absence of these death making institutions, right? Where policing in the US has its direct
00:56:23
Speaker
ascending line from slave patrols, the protection of white people's private property, and union busting, which in some form or fashion American policing does in the 21st century, and then prisons which are en masse, sites of deep sexual violence, homicide, the prisons themselves because of this violence that is
00:56:49
Speaker
been allowed to flow through them, especially since I'd say 1980 in the US. So it's the absence of those things. But it's the presence of life giving resources that every human being needs and deserves. Healthcare, education, housing, that you don't have to pay for. Art, culture, every human being deserves and needs in some form or fashion that
00:57:19
Speaker
that literature, that music, that painting, that sculpture to show you that your individual experience is your own, but that you are a part of a collective species. And the thing with abolitionists, we recognize the existence of harm within the human condition. That as human beings, we will cause violence and endure it.
00:57:47
Speaker
But we argue, and I think if folks really were to contend with this political practice, if you put those life-giving resources in place, you are going to significantly diminish the likelihood that the worst harm is gonna occur from human being to human being. A burglary, a robbery? What I gotta go to your house for? I have a house. I have food. I have resources. I have what I need.
00:58:17
Speaker
And I'm living in abundance in this world truly without policing in prisons, right? But because you have met all of your material needs, you can then move forward in the kind of tougher, emotional work that's needed to actualize abolition, right? Where if you recognize that all human beings will cause and endure harm,
00:58:43
Speaker
then when it happens, what is the space created to talk about, oh, you hurt me. And not just a passing fleeting way, like this was a deep arm and oh, I hurt you in a deep way, right? And you kind of create the space for those conversations to lead to accountability, acknowledgement, right? And hopefully repair the harm so that it doesn't occur in the exact same way.
00:59:10
Speaker
Right. And so it feels like with police out of schools, you know, after George Floyd, there was a resource published called eight to abolition.com. And this was one of the tenants of it was police out of schools. And it feels like a very tangible material way to get toward that abolitionist future, where policing in schools, you know, generally in American history, in recent history, like not that far back.
00:59:39
Speaker
And, you know, folks can kind of think of a time, certainly after Columbine, you know, after Sandy Hook, you know, and now let's say Santa Fe Parkland and Yuvalde, there are these inflection points where, you know, the narrative gets complicated with school shootings. But then you look at Yuvalde and 400 police officers were in and around that building. And still this man was able to perpetrate the crime. Yep.
01:00:08
Speaker
So I think folks feel because of their deep investment in their children, whether they are their biological children or children in their community, and the idea that even folks like a couple of generations removed from us, our parents and grandparents, can think of a time when they were in school without heavy militarized police forces.
01:00:30
Speaker
Yeah. And like, and kids fight, right? And kids disagree, but you go to the principal's office. Yeah, your assistant principal helps out right. And then you move forward. Yeah. Well, it's like, I love everything you're saying. I mean, it's gonna be such hard work in this political climate, but it's like, we obviously need a society with accountability and hopefully like restorative justice, as opposed to right now that our culture just seems to
01:01:00
Speaker
have this knee-jerk reaction to punish people and to criminalize and other people and use these very hard hands of justice. And the policing and prison system costs so much money.
01:01:16
Speaker
It's not like we have to do that. If we redirect those resources, we may not even need so much policing, so many prisons. And it requires a total shift in the way you think about the world because most of us were brought up with policing and prisons.
01:01:37
Speaker
And it just is like, Oh, that's how you solve this. And I, I always say this, but I think it's like a kind of a uniquely queer, not uniquely, but it's kind of queer by thing to be able to imagine a completely new way of having accountability and justice in our society that doesn't so much involve like these harsh punishments, but actually involves addressing the root
01:02:00
Speaker
of these issues. And yeah, like if, if everyone had a universal basic income, you know, would you people need to steal from other people or harm other people? Certainly not to the same degree. No. A black bisexual woman, Marsha P. Johnson at Stonewall said, fuck the police. And for over 50 years, us queer folks have followed in her tradition
01:02:29
Speaker
and say the police actually had no fucking place in pride. And I really appreciate your reflection just now to think about harm, right? And it is the reality that individuals will harm each other and endure harm themselves. But when you are harmed in this incredibly violent culture that is American society,
01:02:53
Speaker
There is this push to say that you are responsible for the harm that you cause in a vacuum. You have seen American militarism. Even Dwight Eisenhower said, y'all, the military is getting a little bit too big.
01:03:10
Speaker
And you have seen the exporting of violence for over half a century in Monda across the world. Even if you don't see it materially as a person living domestically in the US, you know the expansive reach of the US military. You know how that trickles down into policing and prison practices in the US. So when we say these folks did these
01:03:36
Speaker
Violent things right and not to excuse your violence in the form of sexual violence or homicide, right? What society did it occur in? One that deprives people of their material needs Blames them for it and then says good luck
01:03:58
Speaker
And you gotta survive somehow. You're probably gonna live, as we calculate, 80 years, but you're gonna live 80 years without the material needs of human life. You can't divorce this violence from the society. And this is another beautiful call of abolition, right? That not only if you put the resources in place, right, but start this transformation of society, then you will get to this place where we can say, you know,
01:04:27
Speaker
We are truly responsible for each other and we really hold each other in care even when we hurt each other. And we can kind of move forward with this recognition of everyone's humanity.
01:04:45
Speaker
Perfect segue into talking about a little politics because what you just said is really like a radical reimagining of how this society could function. And I think we need it because I'm very nervous about where we're headed at the moment, and I'm very nervous about where we're headed
01:05:05
Speaker
in a couple weeks and we'll talk let's everyone needs to vote this is coming out the day before the final day you can vote which is november 8th um hopefully you voted already but if you haven't please vote so so i'm nervous so but i want to ask you before we talk about this the midterms like
01:05:25
Speaker
All of that is a radical reimagining of everything, which is, I'm guessing, part of why you identify as a socialist and ran for office as a socialist. So tell us why you identify that way and about the campaign you ran for Justice of the Peace in Texas.
01:05:44
Speaker
For folks who are only listening to audio, I just held up my planner and I put my I voted stickers on there from today. I voted on October 24th and got rained on so they wouldn't stick to my shirt.
01:05:56
Speaker
But we have these cool new ones in Travis County with bluegrass. My political evolution has been fascinating, Rob. I was very enthusiastic to vote for Hillary in the primary and the general in 2016. I love that Bernie was a crotchety old man who was just throwing a wrench in the political machine, which he was.
01:06:24
Speaker
All of those things are true. We love to hear it. But even as I progressed through, you know, at that point I was 25 and wrapping up law school and
01:06:38
Speaker
moving back to D.C., I still kind of saw, you know, as I voted in primaries and general elections from 2016, even the 2020, I'd go for establishment them candidates, right? You know, kind of recognizing in spaces like D.C. and Texas where I was voting that, you know, it is much better than the fascist alternatives, you know, through the GOP.
01:07:02
Speaker
But got to a point in 2019 where I'm like my political evolution at work is showing me that I believe in a society where children are given the utmost care, where the resources are put in place, right? And where you don't have to pay for the necessities of life. And it's like, okay, more and more like these are socialist tendencies, right?
01:07:27
Speaker
And then I get to Austin and when I moved there was, which has just come up in the 2022 Supreme Court term, the case of Rodney Reed, who is a black man from Bastrop about 30 miles from Austin on death row, has worked its way through the state and federal court system.
01:07:47
Speaker
in various capacities over the past 20 years, but at the time that I moved to Austin, he was really close to getting executed. And so I ended up at a couple of rallies and I'm like, you know, fuck the death penalty and capital punishment has to go. And I ended up with members of the Democratic Socialists of America Austin chapter, just like at these rallies, right? And, you know, we just like started talking and I go to coffee with some of them, right? We're just getting to know each other.
01:08:17
Speaker
As friends and in a political context the pandemic hits and some of those relationships fell off for a bit But you know during the pandemic the incumbent in Iran for justice of the peace and precinct wanted Travis County This judge received pretty bad press attention from the Washington Post about not scrupulously applying the tenants of the CDC eviction moratorium and in place at the time and this is like the heart of 2020 and
01:08:46
Speaker
And I reconnected with one of the guys in particular who I met at Rodney Reed protest and kind of stayed in touch with. And in like the summer of 2021, he's like, Andrew, we've been looking at this race, you know, I've checked your registration, you're in the precinct. I think you should run for office.
01:09:07
Speaker
And at the time, the story was kind of like because of the bad press attention and the fact that she had been in for three terms at that point, that she was thinking about retiring. And I'm like, okay, well, that can be a good segue into electoral politics, right? Be her chosen successor. But as I reached out toward the end of summer 2021, you know, through the State Bar of Texas website, she's like, oh, Mr. Harrison, I actually just decided to run one more time.
01:09:37
Speaker
And I'm like, damn, okay. Well, we have already started this infrastructure building, right? I became a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America in August, 2021. You know, still proud card-carrying member. And I'm like, let's do this, you know? Bernie ran for office when he was 30.
01:10:03
Speaker
Now I have some of the results of Bernie. Bernie got 1500 votes in a 1972 US Senate race in Vermont. And I got about 3300 votes to her 12,000 of a Justice of the Peace.
01:10:20
Speaker
Following Bernie's footsteps. Just think about me in 2072, just think about the King. President Harrison. Now, if you meet my parents, they're gonna love you, you know, they'd be like, oh, president, you know, Drew, even with your bi-socialist abolitionist ass, you still gonna be the president?
01:10:48
Speaker
But I'm also glad that you set the framework for where we are politically in the United States. So I expect no state Dems will win in Texas. My final prediction is 53%, 47% in favor of Abbott.
01:11:03
Speaker
Right, and I'm very excited about my congressperson who will be sworn in for the 118th Congress, Greg Kazar, you know, a Latino man around my age, who, you know, is also a socialist. But yeah, I think our state prospects are pretty slim.
01:11:20
Speaker
And I don't want to sound cynical at all or pessimistic, but Rob, as of October 24th, 2022, I think we're going to see a rematch in 2024 of the 2020 presidential contest. And it's going to go the opposite way.
01:11:37
Speaker
very scary. Yeah. Okay. I mean, despite that everyone needs to vote. And like, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous about losing the midterms and what happens in that 2024 election.
01:11:55
Speaker
even if Joe Biden gets more votes than the other person. If we don't control the House, I'm afraid of what happens, and so that's why this midterm is so important for me. But it does just feel like there isn't the urgency that there was two years ago
01:12:13
Speaker
Also, your story is like it's very hard in general to change the status quo and to get incumbents out who are not representing people well just because people know their name and they vote for them. I don't know what gives you hope. Is there anything that gives you some hope in this moment? Yes.
01:12:38
Speaker
To match my abolitionist politics with my foray into electoral politics, I was just at the University of Texas Law School this afternoon speaking to a class and quoted one of my revered mentors. She doesn't know that she's my mentor, Maryam Kaba, who's a prison abolitionist in New York, who often says that hope is a discipline.
01:13:02
Speaker
and I think it's a beautiful meditation on this pandemic era and you know whatever comes after it and the long game of this work right across decades and centuries right that in certain respects as you know queer folks let's say right we have been fighting for liberation for
01:13:23
Speaker
decades for centuries, right? And we are building on the successes and the heartbreaks of those who came before us while dealing with our own successes and heartbreaks. But queer folks will look to us in 2072 and say, Rob Cohen and Andrew Hairston were doing the damn thing.
01:13:46
Speaker
And January 6, 2021 happened and your Trump was still running around in 2022. And all of these moving pieces, white supremacy remains are addressed largely in the US. But people are laboring, making the connections both in history and in the present moment, right? Creating this framework where
01:14:11
Speaker
Even, let's say, with the Dobbs decision and so many abortion bans in place throughout the US in 2022, folks are organizing, supporting their abortion funds, saying unequivocally, like me, I am pro-abortion, right? Anytime, any reason. And it is your fundamental divine human right. And people are able to say that
01:14:37
Speaker
with, I'd argue less shame than they had in 1972, 1973, right?
Hope and Collective Action
01:14:43
Speaker
Certainly abortions were happening as queer people existed, right? As all these social
01:14:50
Speaker
Occurrences were in place, but with each passing epoch, we have more of an opportunity to talk candidly about who we are and how that fits into the grand human struggle for justice and equality. So answer more succinctly what gives me hope. It really is the eternal struggle.
01:15:08
Speaker
I know that you do your work and your time to kind of paraphrase Ella Baker, another community organizer I revere. And then when you die, you pass along your records and then people will carry the mantle.
01:15:23
Speaker
I really like that because sometimes I think of how much there is to be done and I just think, I can't help with any of that. I can't do all that and there's so much to change the political culture and all the disinformation.
01:15:43
Speaker
You know, but but I really appreciate what you said, because it's like, we can only do what we can do and do something, like something over nothing. And if every person is doing, doing their part, it's, it may not fix everything, but it's the only way if we're not doing it, then it definitely isn't getting fixed. And truly, Rob, no person does it alone. We're conditioned in our capitalist society to think they are
01:16:12
Speaker
specific successes or heartbreaks are our own to bear exclusively. And not to minimize the experience of any one human life, which is a beautiful meditation on possibilities, wherever the human life entails. But absolutely, we are a species built on collectivism. Even if socialism is used as a boogeyman in 2022, this idea that we care for each other,
01:16:42
Speaker
and that we hold each other down. And some days we're fucking tired and need to take a nap. And somebody can come along and say, you know what, Rob gets to rest, Andrew gets to rest, we're gonna hold down this rally or this action and they're dead. And then collectively we look back on our lives and say that truly we did not do this alone. And nobody can and nobody will.
01:17:10
Speaker
I love that. I've heard people say things like that who may identify as straight. It's not exclusive to us, but I do think there's something about queerness that I've felt what you're saying in a different way and really been part of communities, especially of
01:17:33
Speaker
diverse, more diverse communities than I had been part of where I really got to know people in different ways and support each other. And so it's not a uniquely queer thing, what you're saying, but I do think it's intertwined in some way. And the way you said it so eloquently, I'm sure it's been building inside you as you've been on this bi journey.
01:17:59
Speaker
Wow. To know I do have my biological family. I love them even when we disagree. But this chosen family that has sustained me since 2018. And folks who probably saw this within me saw this, this limitless capacity for love before I knew how to articulate it, right? And who patiently journeyed with me and who now celebrate me and hold me with tender care.
01:18:27
Speaker
That is this piece of the journey that is indescribably, I have to say again, freeing. And that gives me hope for the present and the future and lets me know that there is optimism to be felt in times of despair. And we'll pray for those straight people.
01:18:50
Speaker
Some of them will get it at some point. Absolutely. And this will be like straight folks, right? And look, I ain't shit because I was 26 when I came out. But you know, it's straight for now. You know, let's give them a decade. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
01:19:06
Speaker
Got to get all the Republicans to listen to this podcast and maybe that'll change their mind. Once I convince them to go to a sex party, then they'll rethink everything. I think Jaboukie has a joke who I love, Jaboukie Young White. He's like, I'm not like too enough to have like a modeling career, but I'm too enough to ruin a Republican senator's career.
01:19:31
Speaker
Exactly. Well, on that note, and seriously on the lovely note about the limitless possibility of love or the limitless capacity for love, thank you so much for being here. And also, everyone, please go vote if you didn't vote already. I voted early, Andrew voted early. You got today that this podcast comes out, and you got tomorrow on election day.
01:20:01
Speaker
Please get out there and vote. It won't take that long and hopefully, and it's incredibly important. Any other final message on that or anything you want to say? This was the best day of the year. Thank you for this life-giving resource of this conversation and hold on to hope, y'all, and to each other, right? Vote in the midterm, certainly, and let's keep fighting regardless of the result on November 8, 2022. Awesome.
01:20:31
Speaker
Thank you so much for being here. It was great to finally meet you and chat with you. See you real, real soon.
01:20:41
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Mincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off your first three months of Zencaster. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.