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A Conversation with the Fierce and Formidable Rebekah Vickery
47 Plays6 days ago
"Though she be but little, she is fierce..."
This compact complement, from Shakespeare's play The Merchant of Venice, could really apply to either of the women whose conversation you get to listen in on for this one.
One has to be fierce to come alongside people who have suffered often unspeakable evil, and to help them find their voices.
Abusers come in all guises and wield a wide range of weapons to prey on their victims. Some are powerful people with fancy titles before (or smarty-sounding letters after) their names. Others are caregivers or confidantes who wore masks of kindness and care to build trust, only to end up shattering innocence and compelling complicity.
One thing most abusers have in common, though, is their diabolical expertise at silencing their victims. Part of the insidiousness of sexual or spiritual abuse is how effectively perpetrators cover their tracks, and leave victims terrified of naming (not just to others, but to themselves) the harm they have suffered. Offering a listening ear to people with such wounds is both delicate and demanding work, not for the faint of heart.
But it takes altogether "next level" fierceness to create safety for victims to reconnect with their bodies and other parts of themselves that they have shut down or shunned, out of shame or chagrin. And then to invite them to healing, wholeness, and the goodness and life that they were made for? Well, that's just off the charts.
That's the kind of work that Wendy's guest Rebekah Vickery does as a therapist in private practice, as well as a teacher and facilitator for The Allender Center. Diving in to the deepest waters, traversing the densest jungles, navigating the most mind-effing mazes, to seek and save the lost and forgotten. Deploying her next-level kindness, wisdom, and creativity to break her clients free from the places they have been imprisoned for far too long. And fiercely naming the power--in all its forms--that has often been co-opted for evil rather than good.
Now, all that makes this episode sound waaayy darker than it actually is. But you, dear listener, know us better than that! Wendy and Rebekah's friendship and affection for one another shines through as they compare notes on their own journeys to escape imprisoning thought processes and systems of power. And there's actually a heck of a lot of laughter. (Spoiler alert: Rebekah's "rapture story" alone is worth the listen. :-) )
UPCOMING WORKSHOP OPPORUNITY: Wendy and Rebekah are part of the teaching and facilitation team for The Allender Center's upcoming virtual Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing, May 1-3, 2026. (Click here for more info and to register.)
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about finding hope in the midst of life's disappointments. We resonate with the powerlessness that Jesus' first followers experienced as they waited between His crucifixion on Friday and His rising on Sunday morning.
00:00:27
Speaker
We feel led to bring light and goodness into a world that aches and wonders when relief will come. Here you'll find no easy answers, just honest conversations about actual pain through the lens of a suffering God.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor based in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a counseling intern and family law mediator. Join us as we wait together for more.
Guest Introduction: Rebecca Vickery
00:01:01
Speaker
Welcome back. I am joined here today with a good friend, Rebecca Vickery. Rebecca. Hello. thank you for having me.
00:01:12
Speaker
I am so glad you're here. um Rebecca is a licensed professional counselor in Seattle, Washington, and she also is facilitator and instructor at the Allender Center.
00:01:27
Speaker
um Rebecca, I know that one big part of your focus in your work is church trauma, religious or spiritual trauma. um What are the other things that you feel passionate about in the world of healing?
Focus on Trauma and Healing
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah, that is a big focus of mine. I also work with a lot of women who are coming out of abusive relationships, whether that is, it could be marriage. It could also be an institution or working as an employee for a boss that has a narcissistic or an abusive way of relating or leaving your family of origin um in some ways. So that's, I'm very passionate about that. Obviously, a lot of that is tied to my own story. So it's a very personal passion.
00:02:18
Speaker
um Right. And it's not totally separate than the church drama. um It's just really another way that fundamentalism plays out. Well, i I was having this conversation with a friend the other day who is a local social worker. And, you know, I think when we as humans realize that we have healing work to do in our own lives, that often catapults us to bring healing in very similar places. And so even if it's not the exact same song, the verses tend to be very similar. And so i feel like we just, we develop these passion areas out of our own, what we've lived.
00:03:03
Speaker
And I think that's something really beautiful about, I mean, even thinking about attachment, um we what we know now through continued research on attachment is that we can develop secure attachment as adults, or insecure attachment, and that can happen because we're receiving good care and attachment, but it can also happen because we're offering it.
00:03:25
Speaker
And so there is something yeah to like, not necessarily using people to get to our own healing, but our own healing is going to happen as we're in these spaces, which I just think is so, I think our brain is fascinating in that way. I think our brain is fascinating the way God set it up. And you know as you say that, I'm remembering back to probably 15 years ago. And at that point, I was not a licensed clinician, but I was doing a lot of what I called at the time lay counseling in the context of the church. And I remember telling people often, I am giving what I am desperate to receive.
00:04:03
Speaker
which is really like a safe space to process the pain of life. And so I totally agree with you that um we get healed often in the process of offering healing. And maybe that has something to do with, you know, a more um ah developed sense of self and purpose and identity, you know, and that in itself is healing.
Attachment Theory in Life and Ministry
00:04:28
Speaker
um But I'm glad you brought up attachment because that's one of the things we had talked about wanting to talk about today. And um this comes up in my work all the time, um whether I'm working with children, um foster or adoptive children or biological children from the start or adults in their friendships, work relationships,
00:04:55
Speaker
marriages relationships with their own children um and there's a place that it overlaps with our relationship with god so let me ask you first rebecca um when did you find yourself interested in attachment theory i worked at a ministry for this before becoming licensed um where we actually called it late counseling as well.
00:05:26
Speaker
Some overlap there. um yep And I didn't know very much about any of the psychological language around it. So I didn't have an understanding that it was called attachment theory or that's what we were doing.
00:05:42
Speaker
But what I did recognize was when we have been deeply harmed in relationship, like healing happens in relationships, And at the same time, I recognize like, oh, there is a lot of overlap um in the ways that our harm and our healing happen. So, for example, like a lot of the it was a residential program um for folks who are wanting to work through addiction.
00:06:07
Speaker
And a lot of them had also had experiences of abuse or trauma in a church setting or a family. some form of institution. And so they came into this program where there were guidelines. It was communal living. There were people in authority.
00:06:25
Speaker
So there was a lot that actually felt really similar to their trauma, but it was because of that similarity and then having a different experience in it that brought some
Understanding Spiritual and Religious Trauma
00:06:35
Speaker
healing. So that's what kind of sparked my interest initially where i was like, what is happening here? Like there's something to this. And I think at the same time I was recognizing my own need for healing and wanting to,
00:06:46
Speaker
figure that out. Yeah. As a true Enneagram 8 going to a 5 space, I was like, i'm goingnna I'm going to figure this out.
00:06:55
Speaker
Okay, so we've both now a couple of times used the word spiritual or religious trauma. Okay, and that can be a bit of a trending word right now or phrase. yeah um And, you know, I'm aware that we're talking about harm coming to people, whether that's individuals or dyads, within the context that we would initially think would bring healing.
00:07:24
Speaker
Right. So a church space um where people would maybe come to receive safety and healing. So I'd love to hear you maybe give even just not a little more than a definition, but just sort of thoughts on what are we really talking about when we say religious or spiritual trauma?
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think about our spirituality. and I know in this context, we're talking about it through the lens of Christianity. But I think about our spirituality as our capacity to connect to love, capital L love. Yeah.
00:08:01
Speaker
And so that is identity forming. And when there is trauma or abuse that happens in a spiritual context. We are understanding it not just as there is this person or a system in front of us that's harming us, but that this person or system is doing on behalf of God or on behalf of capital L love. And so it distorts our relationship to what it means to be.
00:08:28
Speaker
loved and to love. So that's, that's how I hold it. And it and it is a trending word right now. um And I think it doesn't mean it's not true. it just means it's getting a lot of press right now. Yeah. And often when we start to hear people tell stories, there's something in us that resonates with like, oh, I, I've also experienced that.
00:08:49
Speaker
And so I think that's some of what we're seeing now is we're hearing more and more stories and there's something in us that resonates with, Oh, I also have experienced that and I didn't have language for it.
00:09:00
Speaker
um Right. When I think about my own experiences of spiritual abuse, it if felt sticky to me because I, I could look at the person and say, Oh, what they're doing is wrong or it doesn't feel right in my body.
00:09:15
Speaker
But it felt complicated to say that because I also felt, but they're speaking for God. And so if i say something against this person about what they're doing, yup then am i also going against the Lord?
00:09:25
Speaker
And I think that's where the spiritual trauma piece gets so intertwined. Yes. Yes. Um, i had a client, um, a couple of months ago and he was talking about, um, uh, a small group leader that he had who was encouraging him. He clearly had a way that he wanted this man to behave in a particular facet of his life. I'm not thinking that the way this man would have wished my client would proceed was wholesale wrong. But he hedged it in a very, um I've prayed and this is what I'm believing God is wanting you to do, um kind of verbiage way. And um the person was left pretty defenseless, right? Like, how do you argue that this other person prayed and God has told them what you should do?
00:10:23
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. and And so where it left this client was at odds with God. Like God had not told him this. And it was, let me be clear, it was a gray area.
00:10:35
Speaker
This was nothing along the lines of you're cheating on your spouse and someone is telling you they're very certain God would rather you not continue in secret this way. You know, we're talking more um about a style of relating with someone in his life.
00:10:53
Speaker
And um it left my client, one, believing that he needed a mediator between himself and God and that he could not be trusted with his own life.
00:11:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good. And I'm glad you said that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know before we get too far down this road ahead of ourselves, um these things tend to follow an attachment style that got developed usually in our family of origin.
00:11:26
Speaker
And so I will say a lot of times to families, you know, the early family for a child is a Petri dish. It's not like a place where people come to get vaccinated against the woes of the world so that none of those things happen in here.
00:11:40
Speaker
But it's a Petri dish where they learn who they are, who others are, what relationship means, what love is, what to be respected and give consent or not means. Okay, we're learning all the
Attachment Styles and Their Origins
00:11:55
Speaker
things. Okay. And depending on how the adults in our lives respond to these needs, we develop a style of attachment. So would you be willing, Rebecca, to go through and sort of give us an overview of the different attachment styles so we can sort of know yeah the categories we're starting with?
00:12:16
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I like your description that you just gave because I think attachment sometimes when we hear it talked about, it's used interchangeably with love, but attachment and love are two different things. Like attachment is yeah how we learn how to connect, how we stay safe in relationship. yeah And that's different than love.
00:12:36
Speaker
um But we generally have either an insecure attachment or a secure attachment. And an insecure attachment is exactly as it sounds. um There's a lack of um security or trust that we can rely on this relationship to provide what we need.
00:12:58
Speaker
So when we're very young, that can look like not knowing, can I go to my parent and tell them I messed up or I did this thing wrong and trust that even if they have a reaction to it, they'll be repair. They'll be able to eventually say, oh, like you're okay. I still got you. Right? If we can't trust that, then there's an insecure connection that we establish. So there's generally two two ways we can have an insecure attachment. and of course, this looks so different for each person. um So I'm talking in a general sense. But one way is what we would call insecure or preoccupied.
00:13:35
Speaker
And this is where there's that push and pull. Like I think about it as saying like, I'm fine, everything's fine, but also I really need you. Like, I need you, don't leave me. I need you, don't leave me. Like it feels very, and we feel very uncertain of can we trust that this person can stay, but at the same time, it feels really terrifying when they leave.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yes. And so we can become very preoccupied in our adult relationships, especially in our primary attachments. So that could be with a spouse or a child or even a a parent as an adult child, where we're very, very attuned to what they're doing.
00:14:14
Speaker
And we're paying really close attention to is this person going to continue to be for me? Can I keep relying on this person? So that's one way of insecure relating.
00:14:25
Speaker
The other insecure attachment is what we would call avoidant. um And that also sounds exactly it sounds. And that's where we've learned when we're really young that we can't rely on our primary caregiver. Usually it's a parent. It could also be an older sibling. it could be um a foster parent, could be any number of people.
00:14:45
Speaker
But whoever is our primary person that we look to, to receive nurturing and care and even get our basic needs met, if we don't have consistency with them, then we learn, actually, I can't trust people. I have to do it on my own.
00:15:00
Speaker
So that person, and I would fall more into this category, who is more avoidant is going to withdraw when they feel really overwhelmed or when they need care. um yeah You can have two at the same time, and that's where we would call it a disorganized way of relating or disorganized attachment.
00:15:21
Speaker
And that's where so our caregivers or our parents were inconsistent in a way that felt dangerous. Sometimes they might be really, really kind, and sometimes they might respond with cruelty or anger, and we can't really know when when that's going to happen.
00:15:38
Speaker
So we have to stay in this constant place of both being really avoidant, but also drawn in. And it does, feels very chaotic in our bodies. yeah i can't I can't trust anything or anyone.
00:15:49
Speaker
ye So that those are the insecure attachments. And when I think about secure attachment, I think about, can I trust that there will be repair if there is a rupture or a conflict in this relationship?
Importance of Secure Attachment
00:16:03
Speaker
Can I trust my own sense of what's happening? Like there, you might feel confused or unsure, but you're not going to have that sense of feeling crazy. um And yeah can I feel secure in that this person gets to have their own wants and needs and I get to have mine and that doesn't threaten the relationship.
00:16:24
Speaker
Right. Right. So, you know, at this point in a session with anyone who is a parent, they always start to panic and they're like, but I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm rupturing with my children and I don't know if I'm repairing well. Okay. So first, um, how much of the time, Rebecca, do parents have to get it right? Right.
00:16:49
Speaker
For our children and to be set up. It's God set the bar pretty low, right? Yeah. What is there a percentage you tend to operate out of? Yeah. I mean, and this is what research shows us too. I mean, we really only need.
00:17:06
Speaker
around 30% of the time, which is pretty low. That's what, yeah, that's what I tell parents 30 to 50%, but really on the low end of that, like, I feel like that's the grace of God, you know, right there in action. um The other thing, you know, I know i was reading some research recently and the idea that we would rupture with our children actually serves a developmentally healthy purpose.
00:17:35
Speaker
And so a lot of times we're like, oh, but I yelled at my child. I'm terrible. Okay. I'm not here condoning yelling at our children, but I am condoning being human, which means that if you engage honestly with other humans, you're all going to lose your marbles at different points.
00:17:54
Speaker
And so i know research has done been done in relationships where a baby was never allowed to cry to very long to let signal letting the you know the need to get their needs met.
00:18:09
Speaker
And then, of course, ones who cried for a very long time. And then ones who cried but were tended to within a reasonable amount of time. And I'm being very vague because i don't remember the details of the studies. But the healthiest set of children came from the set of babies who did cry at times maybe more than their parents would have wished for, but for different reasons. But the parents came and reliably always met the need.
00:18:38
Speaker
So the ones who never had to really get that animated or revved up to get their needs met, they actually did not do as well later in life as the ones who who used their voices.
00:18:52
Speaker
And I think even when we think about that as like a um predictor, you know, we we look at children as developing in a healthy way when they do fuss at their parents a little bit. They do lie to say, what are you going to do with the truth when I bring it and you don't like it? Right? Like they're not becoming so avoidant. Would you agree?
00:19:20
Speaker
Yes. Absolutely. and The word resilience comes to mind there, ahha right? Where yes we actually need to experience hardship um yeah because otherwise we don't build that sense of, oh, I know that I can both get through this on my own if I need to, but I also can rely on other people to help. Yes.
00:19:42
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. yeah So I absolutely agree. And I see a lot of-
00:19:49
Speaker
Yeah. And I see a lot of young parents in my practice right now. And these are people who maybe are in their late 20s or 30s, even like early 40s, who now have this awareness because they have either been in therapy or they listen to podcasts about attachment, where they really don't want to harm their kids, and they want to have good attachment.
00:20:13
Speaker
But then they think the way to do that is to just never rupture, never have any place for human error or make any kind of mistakes. But that's actually not setting themselves up or their kids up for success. Like they actually do need to make mistakes with their kids because the rupture is not what is traumatizing to our bodies or what creates insecure attachment. It's the failure of the person later on to not come back and repair.
00:20:43
Speaker
To be left alone in the aftermath. to be left alone. you Rather than to have someone come. So i there's a poet that we both enjoy from Asheville, my side of the world. um His name is David Gate, and he just came out with a book just a couple of months ago called A Rebellion of Care. And the term, just to briefly mention, he says, you know,
00:21:09
Speaker
A rebellion of care is not a term of naivete. And it's not on the other side of cynicism where you've given up on everything. But it's where you've been through a dark night of the soul and you've seen that trite answers do not pass muster. And you have chosen love, capital L, and care, capital C, for self and for others. And so he's got this poem. My poems tend to be very, very long. And ah met him recently. love your poems. As a side note. Thank you. Thank have you. You've been one of my kind my kind readers. We were laughing together when I met him because his are very short. Some are one line.
00:21:56
Speaker
But this one this one is maybe 12 or 14 lines. But this makes me think of um the way that an avoidant attachment or a disorganized attachment might begin. And it's called, We Are Born Telling the Truth.
00:22:13
Speaker
We are born telling the truth, making cries for our needs. But soon enough, we are taught to stop speaking unless it is urgent.
Vulnerability and Powerlessness in Relationships
00:22:24
Speaker
that silence is a lie. We shroud ourselves in independence to hide the helplessness.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yet the truth never changes. I need you. And so that's you know that can be child to parent. That can be friend to friend. That can be partner to romantic partner. That can be person to God.
00:22:51
Speaker
But I'm struck by his line in there, we shroud the helplessness. So I talk a lot with my clients about powerlessness and helplessness, and those can be different things, but I'm wondering, what do you do Rebecca, with that relationship yourself with powerlessness, your clients? Like that's where we humans spend a lot of time and we do something with our attachment style in that space.
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah. What was coming to my mind when you were reading that was
00:23:29
Speaker
I mean, James Dobson comes to mind as a name. There's other names, like people within the Christian world, evangelical Christian world, who talked about child training um through the lens of authority and submission.
00:23:44
Speaker
And so what came to my mind was, oh, it's a baby, right? Crying in bed. And there's this method to respond to them that is intended to like help the baby to sleep on his or her own. So it's not necessarily ill intended, but what it does in attachment wise is if nobody comes for the baby that's crying, it tells the baby eventually that they are powerless.
00:24:10
Speaker
um And so it's effective. The baby will stop crying eventually. They might protest first, yeah but it is effective. But in that powerlessness, it communicates, oh, nobody is coming for me.
00:24:22
Speaker
yes And so... then that can get played out as adults. Say we're in a conflict with our spouse, or I see this in my therapy practice with clients when there's been a misunderstanding or I failed them in some way.
00:24:36
Speaker
There's not an expectation that, oh, you're somebody that will come back and repair with me. yes So I actually need to withdraw or I need to surrender to that sense of powerlessness.
00:24:47
Speaker
And that's where attachment styles come out because for some people that can look like going into that fight place, right? I'm going to now try to overpower you because I feel powerless. And for other people, it might be, I need to actually withdraw and hide because I don't yeah trust that you're going to be able to hold my anger or my distress.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah. So that's what comes up for me in that. And of course that plays out in our relationship to God and like our spiritual lives, because how could it not? Yeah. Right, right. Well, okay, so then I think about, um okay, so this, work we're also tracking here the development of a human, of a human psyche, of a human um soul, of a human mind and
Attachment, Self-Development, and Spirituality
00:25:34
Speaker
body. Okay, and so if we are developed in this place where I'm mainly needing to look out for me,
00:25:44
Speaker
I need to hide what I've done wrong because I'm going to get in trouble. So I probably need to lie about it. um Whatever the thing may be, i need to not be too forthcoming with my needs because no is so painful. So I'm going to sneak around, you know, and get the needs met. what There's a million varieties. But we're developing a different sense of self that which is not one really rooted in safe relationship.
00:26:17
Speaker
But then this is the self that in our church context is invited to receive God in. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about that. Like we've got this kind of shaky little body trying to figure things out. Yeah. And now we need to pray a prayer or make a particular public profession. and I think it can get wonky very quickly.
00:26:45
Speaker
But what do you think? Yeah. Yeah. What actually comes to my mind is a story of my own for my own life. um ah huh That now I hold some endearment around, but I grew up in a Christian context that really emphasized like praying the sinner's prayer. Like you, these are the words you say specifically that will then, you know, ensure that you are yeah going to have eternal life in heaven.
00:27:13
Speaker
And so growing up in a home where I couldn't trust in the security of attachments, When i so i first learned about the sinner's prayer, like I prayed it and I was five years old.
00:27:29
Speaker
And it was a very sweet, like it's a very sweet memory to me still. There was a lot of innocence, I think there. But then what happened over the years is every time I was in church or I was in some environment where there was an altar call and they talked about people surrendering their lives to the Lord,
00:27:47
Speaker
I started to have all this panic because I felt, I don't know if my prayer stuck. Like, I can't really trust in the security that, yeah oh, God is still there.
00:27:58
Speaker
So I would go up every single time, and I rededicated my life to the Lord probably 40 times. um You know, some pastor got the benefit of you upping the numbers, right, Rebecca? likes Yes. Some church got to keep counting you, and like, we had another 40 conversions, right? But yeah, but in all seriousness, yeah, this anxiety and an anxious,
00:28:23
Speaker
attachment was fueling this right you couldn't rest yes yes i couldn't rest and so of course then as an adult right that gets the stakes feel so much higher because then you're in an abusive context where maybe for me it was being a ministry and having a ministry leader that used the bible to say to try to keep me in my place as a woman right like i'm not supposed to have authority I'm not supposed to have perspective on things.
00:28:54
Speaker
Right. But I had already been trained to not trust my own sense of right and wrong. I had been trained to look outside of myself and I couldn't trust where I was looking. So it left me feeling very disoriented and yu crazy.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Okay. That makes me think of a little aside. So we've got one of our kids in town and um brought their partner with them, who is the most delightful human I know, other than all my other kids and their partners. But um they were telling me about, um I don't know if this is the name of the, I think this is the name of the podcast, um but the name is called, um That's What Happens When Women Read.
00:29:37
Speaker
Okay. know if you've heard of it, but I'm going to be tuning in. Okay. And apparently this is a person who was once a it pretty involved in the fundamental evangelical movement.
00:29:51
Speaker
Okay. And began to raise some questions. And anyway, I'm going to butcher the story, but the bottom line is a remark was made to a woman by a male pastor. This is what happens when women read. Okay.
00:30:07
Speaker
Okay. So if- Well, he's not wrong. Right. Right. He's not wrong. But what's wrong with it, Rebecca? What do you hear? Right. right Well, he's putting so much meaning there, right, to that fundamentalism of I am always right.
00:30:22
Speaker
And therefore, you having a different perspective threatens my sense of rightness, right? It's entitlement. Exactly. And I could go on. but You could. Okay, because here's the thing. It sets, in that situation to me, it sets faith, God, the pastor, maybe all the above, up as being fragile. Like this woman who now has read and taken an opinion could blow the whole thing up. Like that makes it feel like not something that could be trusted in that easily. So...
00:30:57
Speaker
does a whole lot in me yeah it's an it's what i call a narcissistic bind right because it leaves the sense of i was actually just talking to someone about this this morning where myself as a woman i still go into spiritual spaces or even psychological spaces now and wrestle with i don't want to be too powerful but i also don't want to be too small Right. But that's that narcissistic bind where it doesn't allow two people to be right sized with one another. Yeah.
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Yes. OK, so this is funny. I had now I am an Enneagram for OK. And so.
00:31:40
Speaker
It was, it began as a journey of shame and deep rooted, thickly veiled shame around every part of me, but it has grown with some maturity into a commitment of do not fit me in your box. I refuse to, to squeeze into that shape.
00:32:02
Speaker
Okay, and so I was meeting with a client the other day, and he's trying to work through his own relationship with powerful people in his life and how they bring out the young part of him, and he begins to carry himself very differently. And so as we were talking, he gave me what I am holding on to as a tremendous compliment. And he said the way that he experiences me is like, hey, here's my offering.
00:32:34
Speaker
If you take it, great. And if you don't, equally great. And so I was like, okay, that feels like I've grown in some solidity where I don't need to be or get a certain thing. I can be solid in what I offer. And if it's taken and received in a helpful way, great. If it's rejected, I will also be fine.
00:32:59
Speaker
And so i yeah I think that's a part of it too. You're describing a secure attachment with yourself there. Yeah. Well, and I said to him, you know, this is a hard fought for way of being. yes I did not enter the delivery room with this way of being.
00:33:19
Speaker
um Okay. So want to go back to an earned secure attachment. Earned secure. Yes. Yes. Yes. A lot of work we put into these things.
00:33:31
Speaker
I'm like, yes, that was harder to earn than any A in school ever. And for your listeners, for $49.99, you also can experience our insecure attachment.
00:33:44
Speaker
Exactly. Just send Rebecca and I Venmo us $49.99. Yeah. And we will send you a certificate of secure attachment. You have earned secure attachment. And only we will. All manner of things will be well. Selah. Okay, so um I do want to go a little farther in this attachment with God because I think that is where it all to me ultimately hinges. like If human relationships set us up for the way that we are prone to relate to God and the two are so intertwined,
00:34:22
Speaker
um And we've got a lot more on the line with our faith, right? Like we have eternal goodness, eternal damnation, right? Like we have, it's a very um black and white, strongly etched out um this or that, right? Like which door are you choosing?
Attachment's Influence on Faith
00:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. And because we've been set up by prior relationships with caregivers, most of us do not immediately have a secure attachment with God.
00:34:57
Speaker
I relate to you that it was very much a nightly sinner's prayer ritual in my little bed. trying to make sure I said it just right so that God didn't reject me on a technicality. Like I didn't know phrase. Yeah, miss a word, you have to start over again.
00:35:15
Speaker
I did, Rebecca, yes. yeah And then I was like, wait, I didn't cry when I said um my sins are as crimson. I didn't cry. I don't think I feel bad.
00:35:27
Speaker
But at the same time, I had learned to not cry because tears were not cared for in my house. So I'm already in this bind, right? yeah And then later in life, you know, so I'm probably really good at being disorganized in my attachment style. I think I can channel both um avoidant and anxious. But the avoidant part was often looked at as maturity. Right.
00:35:54
Speaker
Like I was okay. I did not need much. I was seen as wise and I could quote scripture just using my head and I was never deeply hurt. And so then it got kind of cemented as this is a way people appreciate me being in my faith.
00:36:14
Speaker
Yeah. You're modeling and I'm putting this in quotes, but you're modeling holiness, right? You can, yes. You are, it's the peace that passes all understanding, right? That's how it was reflected back to me of like, you have somehow figured out how to be in this place of just being at peace with what happens. Yes.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yes. In reality, of course I'm not, right? I'm trying to respond to all this distress in the way that I know how, and you weren't either. Right, right. So I think of um some of the studies they did on children where they were trying to assess. I don't think this was the still face. I think this was the strange situation experiment, but where they had hooked kids up to electrodes while a caregiver took them into a place like a doctor's waiting room. And then mom ran out to the bathroom and left the kid playing. And then mom came back and they're assessing at all the points of
00:37:12
Speaker
of connection and separation, how the child's doing. And the ones who were avoidantly attached had um physiological functions like revved way up, heart rate, temperature, breath patterns, but they seemed fine.
00:37:30
Speaker
And I think that's what often happened when people looked at me and thought, she's so mature and grounded. It doesn't like fluster her inside. I'm a mess, but people just think I'm very settled. And so I settled for thinking, oh this is what settled us until I realized actually anxiety medicine makes me feel a lot better, you know, when these things are not happening inside of me.
00:37:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and I think as you're saying that, I'm thinking about, I know I said I was probably more avoided earlier. What's more true is I'm probably more disorganized. and um High five across the country. There we go.
00:38:14
Speaker
But impacted for me, like, how I saw God. Because huh I couldn't trust, like, okay, there's goodness, yes, but also there's punishing. And I can't trust what, when is going to happen, what.
00:38:31
Speaker
So that's why I say the service prayer over and over again, growing up, because I'm actually terrified. But at the same time, I'm terrified to not say it. So I'm both drawn in, but I'm also really, really scared to be close.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yes. Yes. What's the fear in being close when you're in that place? Yeah, for me, it was exposure, right? I'm, I'm close. There are is a sense of, oh, God loves me.
00:39:03
Speaker
There's intimacy. And now all of my places of vulnerability are gonna get exposed. And I'm gonna do something that's gonna break the relationship because it will be my fault.
00:39:14
Speaker
And then I'm gonna get annihilated. I'll get cast out, right? I'm gonna go to hell was the language I had as a child around it. But really the deeper fear there is I'm gonna get cast out of this relationship.
00:39:25
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And it will be because there's something wrong with me. Yep. Okay. When you said seen there, I think you used that word. It made me think of dan Siegel's research around attachment and just interpersonal neurobiology and connection. And he's got the four S's. He's big on like...
00:39:46
Speaker
acronyms or whatever you would call this, a bunch of letters for a bunch of words. But these four S's are we need to be seen, soothed, safe and secure. And that would, you know, if those are done reliably, at least 30 percent of the time, we would end up with a secure tech you know connection to this human. Well, I'm thinking, you know, for those of us who had some anxiety in our bodies, in our faith journey, um the idea of being seen was very real. Like God's there, right? Like he's he's like Santa or the elf on the shelf. He's always always watching. Yep.
00:40:24
Speaker
Right. he's going to see everything bad I do. So the being seen for those of us with anxiety did not fruit out in safety. it fruited out in fear of then what will happen to me.
00:40:41
Speaker
So then I'd rather avoid it, you know? yeah And the when I think about like the disorganized piece of that, there might be times where it felt comforting.
00:40:53
Speaker
At the same time, yes it's terrifying.
00:40:57
Speaker
It can be both at one time, right? Yes. um They can vacillate. We can vacillate between the two. Or it could be that a part of me feels very, very um noticed. and like he's looking at me with eyes of love. And another is like, oh, but when's he going to see the other?
00:41:17
Speaker
You know, I picture like a child that comes in the kitchen and they still have crumbs from the cookie jar. It's like that. Like, well, is mom going to like say, hey, sweetie, where have you been all day? i'm so glad to see you. or is she going to notice, you know, how long is it going to take her to notice the chocolate chips, you know, yeah falling off my chin? And so it's that both at the same time.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So, you know, there's another um book um that I have turned to on this subject, and I've recommended it to quite a few clients, but it's by a counselor in Oregon um by the name of k Crispin
Recommended Reading and Concepts
00:41:57
Speaker
Mayfield. It's called Attached to God. And i think you told me you've listened to his podcast. I've not heard the podcast yet, but I'm very intrigued. Yeah.
00:42:06
Speaker
It's very He his spouse, they... he and his okay fay They did a whole series on Adventures in Odyssey one time. They go through like different, the Left Behind series. They do different things around evangelical cultural artifacts. yeah And they'll talk about it through the lens of attachment or um yeah how how that it's impacted.
00:42:30
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Well, I'm going to tune in because, um you know, my ninth grade teacher in public school read the book Raptured to us.
00:42:42
Speaker
And with a child with anxiety, i was riddled. i'm like, when is it going to happen that I'm separated from everyone? Either I get taken or they do. Which one's better? i don't know. i'm with you. I read the late great planet Earth and that was horrifying. Yeah.
00:43:01
Speaker
I mean, now I'm like, we have like villains come into schools of a different sort, but I'm like, Mrs. Lovelace sat every day in English class and read Raptured.
00:43:14
Speaker
That is so astounding to me. could do that today. Yeah. Uh-huh. No, she couldn't. And this, this is a side story around the Rapture. Yeah. I was five and had just learned about the rapture.
00:43:30
Speaker
And I took a nap and everyone in my family went out to the backyard. I didn't know they were back there. And I woke up to my neighbor practicing the French horn. And I went and looked throughout the house and nobody was there.
00:43:41
Speaker
And I thought I had been left behind. You're like, the angels are playing their hymn. Everyone got taken. What did I do? i was like, I hear you, Jesus. And I missed it.
00:43:54
Speaker
Right. I'm so sorry. I fell asleep. Oh gosh, Rebecca. Yeah. All right. Okay. Tyler, we're back. So in this book, um I pulled up one of the quotes that had been meaningful to me, and he's talking about he's overlaying an attachment style onto our relationship with God and our faith, because as we've been saying, it really has an impact. So he starts by quoting a pretty well-known female theologian who's authored a lot of books, who has said in some of her writing,
00:44:30
Speaker
We must love God with our minds, allowing our intellect to inform our emotions rather than the other way around. And I feel like this is a lot of Western theology. right like Read your scripture. It's a lab report. If you read it well, you'll find the bottom line. There is a truth, end of story. Believe it. And then...
00:44:56
Speaker
conjure up some emotions around that to embody it. But what he goes on to say is, but if we only love God with our minds, we miss out on the spontaneity of authentic, intimate relationship with God that we see throughout the Psalms and the rest of scriptures. When we listen to our hearts and share our feelings with God, we find connection with a divine parent who longs to hear our emotions and help us understand them.
00:45:27
Speaker
What do you think about that? Yeah. It feels so invitational. Like, I think that's the first that's the first experience I have listening to that, is there's something that feels very warm and invitational and connecting versus...
00:45:44
Speaker
The original quote from the theologian sounds more, it sounds colder, right? It's that sense of, I have to figure this out. Yes. And then if I figure it out, maybe I'll have that sense of relationship versus what Kristen is saying is, I start with relationship.
00:46:01
Speaker
Yes, I start with a relationship. Well, and I mean, that's the God of scripture that I read about. Like he was committed to relationship from the beginning. Yeah. um Yeah. And i I think this last year i've begun to do a lot of thinking around.
Bible and Faith as Relationships
00:46:21
Speaker
what What is the definition I hold of the Bible, of Scripture? Is it a story of a relationship of a God with His people?
00:46:34
Speaker
Is it a story of why we should be deathly scared of snakes? Is it how to avoid hell? Like, what is it? Right. Um, is it a book of rules that I need to follow? um and, and I'm landing on the first one. It's the journey of a relationship yeah between a God and his people or her people. Yeah. They're people.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I think about how stories, I mean, whether it is stories in the Bible or fairy tales that we read growing up or stories that are told about our family history, you know, the family stories that get passed down.
00:47:19
Speaker
there's There's so much meaning yeah that we make of that. And so much of that meaning is rooted in how we've actually learned how to attach in relationship. And so where I think about how these stories of a God in relationship with his people, her people, right, can get distorted is when there are people that start to put meaning to that to fit their own categories of attachment, right, and abuse and entitlement.
00:47:48
Speaker
So I feel the risk there and also feel the Yeah, say a little bit more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, say a little bit more there. Yeah, like I'm coming in as a nine-year-old, I'm thinking about a particular time, right, where I'm going up to the front of the church to recommit my life to Jesus.
00:48:05
Speaker
And I'm thinking really hard about what sins have committed. Now, looking back, I'm like, what, what sins was I committing at nine? I don't know, right but I'm being so earnest there. exactly And because I've heard this story, right. About in one lens, it could be love, right? Like there's an invitation to relationship with God that could be really, really invitational, kind.
00:48:33
Speaker
But my attachment experience within my family, within other places, had taught me actually intimacy is dangerous, right? And so the meaning that I'm putting to it isn't just, oh this is an invitation to love.
00:48:48
Speaker
It's, oh, I have to be really, really good or I'm going to get cast out. The closer I am actually, the more in danger I am. Yep. So that's that's an example that comes to mind of how we can distort or how these things can be distorted for us.
00:49:04
Speaker
The closer I am, the more danger I'm in And can you put just a little bit more flesh on that without telling more than you wish? Yeah.
00:49:15
Speaker
Um, you mean like my own experience and how that informed it? How that, yeah, how that came to be. I mean, I know it could be as simple as the closer I am, the more my parents are going to see what I do and I'll yeah be in trouble. yeah Um, but I'm just curious where that developed. Yeah. Well, a small piece of my family life, and of course it's not the whole of it, but a small piece of it was that we were in a context of Christianity that had a patriarchal model.
00:49:48
Speaker
So my dad is the one that like ultimately has a final say over what happens in the home. My mom has some authority, but ultimately she's going to bend towards my dad.
00:49:59
Speaker
Right. And then as children, there is a sense of powerlessness. Um, like we're not the ones in charge right there's an authoritarianism like context that i'm living in where i'm already trained to know like i need to obey i need to do the right thing i need to look the right way in order to maintain some connection that feels good right so the closer that i am
Impact of Family Dynamics on Intimacy
00:50:26
Speaker
to say my dad right ah he's kind of at the top of this patriarchal structure
00:50:31
Speaker
the more he's gonna see the ways my humanity and the ways that I'm not measuring to that. right And so that starts to be encoded in my body as intimacy is actually dangerous here.
00:50:43
Speaker
But at the same time, to leave the family also feels dangerous. right And so you're I'm caught in this predicament yeah that plays out when I hear the altar call. Yes. This predicament, I go down front and also going down front means I'm really seen um by God and I've already sinned and cost him his life. But then the only way to be safe is to say the prayer again. Yeah. yeah I can feel it. Yes. And my little heart loved Jesus and was also terrified of him. Right. And that's that disorganized attachment. Yes.
00:51:17
Speaker
Yes, Rebecca, that is so tragically, but really well put. My little heart loved Jesus and was also terrified. Right? Like now my heart loves Jesus and I'm often also very confused right by him.
00:51:36
Speaker
Like far more than I've ever been yeah as I've owned. Yeah. The reality of life. Um, yeah. Okay, so as we're wrapping up here, one thing that's coming up, the other day I was doing a little bit of writing around children going back to school and what that's meaning for the families I
Parenting and Attachment Styles
00:51:55
Speaker
work with. And it really dovetails with what you just said. If you've got dad, you've got mom, you've got children. But then a little while ago, you mentioned, you know, our own attachment style now shows up in our current relationships and particularly with our children.
00:52:12
Speaker
And the way we relate out of our own attachment style is is developing an attachment style. Right. Right. And so I was thinking of, you know, I'm hearing a lot of stories of bedtime is awful or this child won't get out of bed.
00:52:31
Speaker
um And or this child is coming home melting down. um But there's so much at stake for the parents, right? Like there's like I or more likely my spouse screwed up at bedtime. And that's why it was such an ordeal. Right.
00:52:47
Speaker
Right. And so it's like, I've got some anxiety in my attachment of how I've got to do parenting right. And now we've messed it up. And now he won't get out of bed. And now the teacher is going to think we're that parent because we're late again. Yeah, the stakes are so high. then the child's getting off the bus and being rude.
00:53:04
Speaker
They're so high. Right. And so what would your word be, your sentences maybe, to people who are feeling the impact of their own unhealed attachment style now affecting their children? Again, we're not trying to avoid all ruptures.
00:53:27
Speaker
But we want to see that we're bringing something into this relationship that is probably more about our own anxiety or avoidance than really about loving our child and bringing soothing and safety and security to them as we see them.
00:53:44
Speaker
Well, it does make sense. And I feel so tender as you're saying that um and just very tender. yeah I just feel gentle about that. Like I i feel how high the stakes are and how terrifying it is to not want to do harm.
00:54:00
Speaker
And at the same time, we're so human and we can't help attaching the ways that we've learned. Yes. And just feeling all of that. Yes. So there's a lot of kindness there that I'm feeling.
00:54:12
Speaker
And I also think about the, I mean, research now shows us this, but I think we have intuitively known this for a long time. But the ability of us as parents to be able to care for our own selves and hold our own humanity with kindness is one of the biggest predictors of secure attachment with our kids.
00:54:36
Speaker
And I think in our effort to not want to do harm, yeah we we become so focused on our children or in other contexts, it could be my clients or my parishioners or whoever it may be, right? Yes. That we actually lose sight of, it starts with us. it starts with actually holding the young parts of us with a lot of kindness. And so in that moment when there's anxiety over I've ruptured or my spouse is ruptured in this way. And now I feel conflicted because I can anticipate all of the steps that are coming after.
00:55:09
Speaker
like can we pause to actually just be with ourselves and say, oh, I see you. Like I see the panic. the young panic that comes up with me. Yep.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yes. Yes. A hearty amen to that. And I feel like the conversations that I tend to have with parents more often is not the list of like how to parent that they initially come in asking for. So what do I do when my child has a lot of meltdowns and can't regulate his emotions? We both need coping skills. Yeah.
00:55:41
Speaker
You might, but mainly you need grace for self that will then find its way into grace for this child that you're parenting that of course you don't know what to do with.
00:55:53
Speaker
Right. Because humans are incredibly complicated. Humans are incredibly complicated. That is the truth. Right. And so no duh that we don't know what to do, but we are called to love.
00:56:06
Speaker
Yeah. So. Rebecca, what a treat.
Conclusion and Nurture Counseling Services
00:56:10
Speaker
What a treat. love talking with you. I could talk with you all always love talking you. I know maybe we'll come up with another topic and talk again.
00:56:21
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time.
00:56:33
Speaker
Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:56:48
Speaker
and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net.