Why is it so hard to stay connected when conflict shows up? For most of us, the moment tension rises, we slip into debate mode — fighting for the win instead of fighting for the relationship. In this episode, Wendy and Chris get honest about what that looks like in their own marriage, and what it takes to choose connection instead.

They share stories from their early years together — when Saturday morning chores, unspoken expectations, and clashing habits revealed something much deeper: the longing to be seen, loved, and secure. Along the way, they name how family of origin, formative wounds, and even the wiring of our brains set us up to repeat old patterns, and how easy it is to cling to being “right” when what we really want is to be close. (Ever had an argument where the real fight wasn’t about the dishes? Yeah, us too.)

At the heart of the conversation is a crucial distinction: coercion vs. connection. Coercion may look like control, persuasion, or even righteousness — but love rooted in Christ makes room for freedom. It bears with one another in humility, gentleness, patience, and forgiveness, just as Ephesians 4:2 and Colossians 3:13 call us to.

This isn’t about avoiding conflict or pretending differences don’t matter. It’s about moving from debate to dialogue, from certainty to curiosity, and from control to trust. Honest, funny, and deeply hopeful, this conversation is full of the kind of real-life wisdom y’all will recognize — the kind that just might change how you show up in your next argument.

Connect with Us!
Follow @nurturecounselingnc [https://www.instagram.com/nurturecounselingnc/] on Instagram
Visit nurturecounseling.net [https://www.nurturecounseling.net/]

Losing Is the New Winning: Choosing Love Over Being Right

We had the best time sitting down with Becky Allender — writer, grandmother, co-founder of The Allender Center, and yes, longtime partner-in-life-and-love to Dr. Dan Allender. But make no mistake: Becky is a force in her own right. Her presence is warm, steady, and disarmingly honest. And for decades, she’s been a vital voice shaping the work that has impacted thousands through Dan’s teaching, writing, and the Allender Center’s mission.

In this conversation, Becky reflects on entering what she calls the final chapter — not with resignation, but with clarity, intentionality, and grace. She shares what it means to show up fully in marriage at this stage of life, especially as Dan focuses his last major professional efforts on the topic of marriage itself. Becky names what it’s like to be drawn more visibly into that work, to keep growing in her own voice, and to embrace the joy and ache of this season with open hands.

We also talk about parenting — the beautiful and brutal reality of reckoning with the ways we’ve missed the mark, and how to best engage when our adult children bring their stories back to us. Becky's example of listening with humility, resisting the urge to defend, and offering genuine curiosity is a masterclass in becoming more like Jesus. We discuss what it means to bless our grown children even when their lives and choices look different than ours did, and to trust that God is big enough to hold what we couldn’t.

This episode is honest, tender, funny, and rich with lived wisdom. Becky doesn’t offer easy answers — but she offers something better: a deeply human picture of love, courage, and grace that keeps unfolding across decades.

We’re so grateful for her presence, and we think you will be too.

🌐 Connect with Becky [https://theallendercenter.org/about/team/becky-allender/]
Follow @nurturecounselingnc [https://www.instagram.com/nurturecounselingnc/]

Becky Allender on Marriage, Voice, and Growing Through Every Season

As our lives grow more complex, so does our faith. The black-and-white answers we once held tightly often lose their grip when we find ourselves sitting beside hospital beds, walking through grief, or holding space for the pain of others.

In this second half of our conversation with Rachel Clinton Chen, we talk about what it means to grow a faith that’s big enough to hold suffering — our own and others’.

If you’ve ever felt shaken by disillusionment, unsure how to trust again, or wondered what love really looks like when power has been misused — this episode offers story, clarity, and hope. Healing doesn’t always come through having the right answers. Sometimes, it begins with letting go of certainty and choosing to stay curious about who God really is.

Connect with Rachael:
@rachaelclintonchen [https://www.instagram.com/rachaelclintonchen/]
theallendercenter.org [https://theallendercenter.org/author/clintonr/]

Learn more about Nurture Counseling:
@nurturecounselingnc [https://www.instagram.com/nurturecounselingnc/]
nurturecounseling.net [https://www.nurturecounseling.net/#home]


Rachael Clinton Chen (Part 2): Harmers and Healers

Some people come into your life and quietly, powerfully change its trajectory. For Wendy, that person was Rachael Clinton Chen.

In this first half of a two-part conversation, we sit down with Rachael — a pastor, teacher, and co-host of the Allender Center Podcast — for a conversation that’s rich with honesty, clarity, and care. We talk about what it means to be truly seen, why minimizing suffering is so common (especially in Christian spaces), and the small but brave turns that can lead us toward freedom.

Rachael shares pieces of her own story — from growing up in a fundamentalist church, to experiencing spiritual abuse, to slowly finding her way back to a more spacious and embodied love of God. She reflects on the disorientation that comes when relationships, especially those rooted in spiritual authority, become harmful — and how reclaiming our voice and agency is part of the healing journey. Along the way, we talk about power, trust, and the kind of theology that either binds us or sets us free.

This episode is full of honesty, warmth, and fierce kindness. It’s for anyone who’s ever wondered if they were too much, too broken, or too far gone to be met by God — and needed to hear, gently but clearly: you’re not.

Content note: This conversation includes references to trauma and non-graphic mentions of suicidal thoughts. Please listen with care.

Connect with Rachael:
@rachaelclintonchen [https://www.instagram.com/rachaelclintonchen/]
theallendercenter.org [https://theallendercenter.org/author/clintonr/]



Rachael Clinton Chen (Part 1): Story, Suffering, and the God Who Meets Us

What comes to mind when you hear the words “self-care”? A bubble bath? A walk in the woods? Maybe… a little guilt?

In this episode, Wendy sits down with her good friend Danielle Hughes—a counselor, spiritual director, and fellow traveler in the world of soul-tending. They talk about what it really means to care for ourselves in a way that’s honest, sustainable, and spiritually grounded.

Danielle shares about her unique upbringing overseas, her current season of parenting and ministry, and how she’s learning (slowly) to listen to her own needs. Wendy reflects on a season of burnout, and the surprising ways she found healing—not through doing more, but through receiving help from others…and from God.

If you’ve ever felt tired but unsure how to stop, or if you know all the right things to do but never seem to get around to actually doing them—this one’s for you.

They also share a new offering for women in Charlotte: Self-Care Camp [https://www.cultivatecharlotte.com/store/p/held-a-soul-care-summer-camp] (yes, it’s as good as it sounds). Come listen in.

**Register today @ Cultivate Charlotte: https://www.cultivatecharlotte.com/store/p/held-a-soul-care-summer-camp**

Connect with and learn more aboit about Danielle here [https://www.cultivatecharlotte.com/about].

Alone, But Not Lonely: A Conversation About Soul Care with Danielle Hughes

Y’all… we’re blushing just a little over this one. Because today, we’re going there — with therapist and author Sam Jolman, who joins us for a gracious, grounded, and yes, occasionally awkward conversation about sex, story, and the deep hope of healing.

Sam’s new book The Sex Talk You Never Got is the kind of resource we wish we’d had at 13, 22, and honestly, last week. We talk about what we learned (and didn’t) growing up in the church, how shame got tangled up with desire, and what it means to honor our bodies — and each other’s — with curiosity, reverence, and kindness. Together we explore consent, deep wounds caused by “purity culture,” emotional regulation, co-regulation, and the quiet ache for connection that often lives beneath our behaviors.

Whether you’re parenting kids through the thick of it, untangling your own story, or simply trying to feel a little less weird about the fact that this topic still makes you squirm, we hope you’ll feel seen, safe, and invited. Because this part of us — our longing, our tenderness, our capacity for joy — was never meant to be shut down. It was meant to be restored.

Check out Sam's book at samjolman.com [https://www.samjolman.com/the-sex-talk-you-never-got-book/].
Connect with Wendy on Instagram: @nurturecounselingnc [https://www.instagram.com/nurturecounselingnc/]

Sex, Story, and the Hope of Healing with Sam Jolman

A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.

But how exactly does that work?

What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?

What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process?  And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit?  Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems?  Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?

In this THIRD episode of a3part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey....  They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive.  No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time.  Enjoy!

Story Work in Your Marriage: The Hope, The Challenges, and The Power (Pt. 3)

A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.

But how exactly does that work?

What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?

What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process?  And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit?  Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems?  Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?

In this second episode of a three part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey....  They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive.  No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time.  Enjoy!

Story Work in Your Marriage:  The Hope, the Challenges, and the Power (Part 2)

A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.  

But how exactly does that work?  

What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?  

What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process?  And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit?  Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems?  Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?

In this first episode of a three part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey....  They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive.  No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time.  Enjoy!

Story Work in Your Marriage: The Hope, The Challenges, and The Power

Here's a crazy thought:  The hardest places in your marriage--the most maddening merry-go-rounds of misery, mixed motives, meanness, malcontendedness, and missed moments--might actually hold the key to discovering greater intimacy and connection.  (Yep. Read that again.)

Hang with us here.  What if our rough edges, our raw spots, our "triggers," if you will-- are not just random, or merely "sin patterns" we need to repent of, or weird personality quirks? What if there is a reason that each of us loves what we love, and hates what we hate? Doesn't it make sense that those nagging "bad habits" or addictions or relational patterns that we can't break free from were learned somewhere, from someone, and for some purpose? And if so, could the path to lasting freedom involve deeper exploration of where they came from?

Put another way, the idols that our hearts have looked to for deliverance had to have been forged in a furnace at some point.  If that's true, then what might we learn and how might we grow, by going back into that fiery furnace--but with with wise guidance, kind care, and worthy travelling companions?

In in this episode, Wendy and Chris and their dear friends, Steve &  Lisa Call, explore the transformative power of marriage "story work," and how it can rekindle hope for a relationship, catalyze greater attunement to one another, cultivate a more enduring resilience, and deepen intimacy. There's also practical guidance on what it looks like for couples to engage one another's most formative stories by themselves, with a counselor, and in marriage story group contexts. 

The Calls are the founders of The Reconnect Institute, and co-authors, with Dan and Becky Allender, of an incredibly insightful and practical new book, The Deep Rooted Marriage: Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight--a book that provides encouragement and practical guidance for building, nurturing, and even repairing a marriage. 

Steve is a longtime counselor and counselor educator at the Seattle School of Theology & Psychology, and Lisa is a story work coach who has completed multiple levels of training in narrative focused trauma care at The Allender Center. Through The Reconnect Institute, they have worked with countless couples to dig up the roots of recurrent conflict, and provide opportunities for reflection, renewal, and resurrection.

Where to find our guests:

The Deep-Rooted Marriage [https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Rooted-Marriage-Cultivating-Intimacy-Healing/dp/1400344468/ref=asc_df_1400344468?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80195820408724&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583795285512647&psc=1&msclkid=63e676e67644185ae646112b8ff4e899]

Reconnect Institute [https://www.thereconnectinstitute.com/]

Marriage Story Intensives [https://www.thereconnectinstitute.com/marriage-story-intensive]

Hope for Any Marriage (Yes, Even Yours!) with Steve & Lisa Call (Pt. 2)

Welcome to "The Thriving Lawyers Podcast, brought to you by Chris Osborn and Michael Kahn of ReelTime Creative Learning Experiences!  Join us for candid but ultimately inspiring conversations with lawyers from around the U.S. and Canada (and maybe points beyond) who have found ways to truly thrive in the practice of law.   We may even discuss a movie or two, on our never-ending quest for inspiration, motivation, and practical solutions. (That's how Reel Time got started, after all!)

The Thriving Lawyers Podcast

Join licensed clinical mental health counselor Wendy Osborn and her husband Chris as they share intimately about their journey  through three decades of marriage, and the healing and growth God has brought them individually and as a couple in the process. From a storybook beginning right out of an 80s rom-com, though times of disappointment, heartache, seemingly unresolvable conflict, loss, and grief, their story forms the backdrop for considering how God uses struggle to draw folks closer to the real Jesus. Surviving Saturday is all about holding tenaciously on to hope in the darkest days-- in between the crucifixion on Friday, and his resurrection and ascension on Sunday.  

Brought to you by Nurture Counseling [https://www.nurturecounseling.net/], PLLC in Charlotte, NC, a counselling teaching and training center in Charlotte NC committed to helping families flourish, one story at a time. 

Special thanks to singer/songwriter extraordinaire BIll Mallonee for the licensing rights to use one of our favorite tunes about relational trainwrecks, and the road back to forgiveness, redemption, and renewal of hope.  You can find this tune and more of his music at https://www.billmalloneemusic.com/ or on the Bandcamp app.

The "Surviving Saturday" Podcast

Chris's Show

Encouragement and wisdom from licensed mental health counselor Wendy Osborn and her husband of 35 years, Chris, on how to navigate doubt, betrayal, disappointment, and other hard times in marriage and parenting.  We believe Jesus is a very present help in trouble, and is always at work to bring us closer to Him and to one another.  Our stories from our families of origin often provide important clues to how your styles of relating have been formed and ways that we have tried to make life work on our own terms.  Based on our training through Dan Allender and The Allender Center in narrative focused trauma care, we believe that God enables us to partake of his grace and reflect his glory, and that it is the kindness of the Lord that leads us to repentance and restoration.

Chris

Shows