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Story Work in Your Marriage: The Hope, the Challenges, and the Power (Part 2)
37 Plays7 days ago
A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.
But how exactly does that work?
What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?
What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process? And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit? Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems? Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?
In this second episode of a three part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey.... They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive. No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time. Enjoy!
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons. Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That Sunday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us His peace and His presence at times when He feels distant or even cruel.
Expertise and Unexpected Growth
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach. Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
Understanding Personal Triggers and Connections
00:01:08
Speaker
Story work we've found then is is is really the only way to get at that reactivity, those buttons, those triggers, how we deal with disappointment. um Yes, I get demanding, but why?
00:01:19
Speaker
Yes, I get dissociative, but why? And I think the deeper level work has become, it's not just, aha, now I understand why you are so difficult and why you're so bad. But more, there's a the deeper level is what formed you?
00:01:35
Speaker
What is it that makes everything in your body go on high alert if I just look or speak a certain way? yeah Speak to that dynamical, but how do you get to the the what's underneath the well I mean, I think, you know, one thing that comes to mind immediately is Kurt Thompson. i think it was in The Soul of Shame.
00:01:56
Speaker
He has this comment. um Everyone comes into the world looking for someone who is looking for them. And they never stop.
00:02:06
Speaker
Okay. And to me, that's a picture of Genesis and God's making of the first humans and the blessing. i mean, if he's breathing life into nostrils, he's certainly looking face to face in their eyes. Yes. And so there's this, you know, we're always longing for good, safe connection and a person that lets us know we matter.
Role of Nervous System and Marriage Dynamics
00:02:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:02:35
Speaker
And that would be in the image of God who let us know from the start we matter, like we are precious creations to him. And so the way that that way that shows up, I think, in story work, and you tell me if I'm wrong about this, but basically as you start plumbing the depths of the stories um that forged some of these ways of reacting and some of these expectations, um part of the purpose is not to go, oh, see where you picked up that bad habit? See where you started self-protecting? Shame on you.
00:03:08
Speaker
That's not good. That's not where it ends, and that's not enough. It's to go, do you understand Can you see why your you're at age 10, you were longing, in your case, you were longing for safety and protection to see the stories that made you crave that?
00:03:28
Speaker
Right, because this same God put in us nervous systems that are charged with the job of keeping us alive. Yes. Now, we heard somebody say recently, and I thought it was so funny, like, you know,
00:03:42
Speaker
Help me to understand when I'm just reading a triggering email and I'm not actually being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. Exactly. Okay. And that's well said. like there This nervous system is meant to surveil the world for danger. Yes.
00:03:58
Speaker
And it doesn't know or care if this is an emotional threat or a physical threat, but God put this system in us that is charged with the job of keeping us feeling safe. Yes.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so that matters to him. And so therefore, when we develop as young children strategies to find safety, that makes sense. And then if we do not heal, we will bring those same strategies into our marriage yeah and use them against each other when the other does not leave us feeling safe.
00:04:35
Speaker
And so you were longing, one of your core needs was for safety. I think mine was for relief. Can I just be off?
00:04:47
Speaker
Can I not be required of, demanded of? and And if I can't um negotiate that with a person, then I'll just steal it somewhere. I will find some way to be off by being passive, by not showing up, by being sort of immature.
00:05:05
Speaker
yeah um And again, i've sort of come to a place where, thank God I found ways to do that. Thank God I found ways to disassociate in a way and check out from the pain I was carrying.
Family Dynamics and Emotional Safety
00:05:19
Speaker
Because I could have found other also destructive ways. Okay, but if you had not found ways... to keep your heart alive, yeah then where would you be now? I would have been deeper in worse addictions or I would have become this sort of, um you know, I would have had no accessible emotions at all. right I would just completely cut off and become just a, you know, brain yak.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah. um And, and gone really, really my head. And I somehow God kept waging this war for me, not just to just be a brain, but to also have, you know desire and hope.
00:05:55
Speaker
on but it's But it's been a war ah for sure. um And so what what you hear us talking about is um we can better, we could have had this conversation 10 years ago for sure.
00:06:07
Speaker
um Definitely not 15 years ago where we can understand each other's story better. The irony of one of these things I've noticed too is like, especially when we've done an intensive with a couple and you got one of them who's still kind of saying,
00:06:21
Speaker
I mean, I don't really, my my family was great and and we all get along so great. And the other spouse is over there going, um can can I say something? I might've seen something that I'm a little troubled by this. um And there's some examples of that in our relationship that,
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, I've discovered some things about my family dynamics that looking back, you're like, you know, I always kind of thought that was weird. You know, the way y'all deal with conflict or stuff like that.
00:06:47
Speaker
um So the irony is, if if one if one spouse is saying, I don't really have a story, there wasn't anything bad in my family, probably... important to listen to does, does the other person have some insights because they didn't grow up in your family system and they have their own swirl of things that were sort of chaotic and unhealthy, but, but they might see yours better. You might see theirs better when you start this.
00:07:11
Speaker
Now the purpose of it is not to be able to say, well, there you go again, being your bad self. and That's not love, which we're deciding in our opinion, marriage is about. Yes. If marriage is about love, what happens is we,
00:07:24
Speaker
we learned to go into those stories with one another of like, oh my gosh, like I remember as you process some of the things about um pain and and ways that you were felt alone and the reasons you needed safety in your house. um That was eyeopening for me, like hearing how things I would say or act a certain way would and land on that, would make you feel that again. That was eyeopening. I'm like, I don't,
00:07:50
Speaker
want to make you feel that way instead of, damn it, I'm not them. you I think I had a lot of that yeah for a while. I'm not your dad. I didn't do this. I'm not your mom, whatever. yeah I shifted to, um oh my gosh, I see what you've experienced. i don't want to I don't want to reenact that. I don't want to land on that.
00:08:08
Speaker
what can I do to moderate or modulate how I speak or how I show up or how I physically hold myself so that you don't feel that again. and And you've done the same sorts of thing with me.
00:08:21
Speaker
yeah um And so it's it's kind of an invitation to, um it's almost like you're you're working on the bomb squad in a way. As you understand the things that are the triggers, that are the things that detonate, you can you can navigate them more carefully and go, oh, there's the red wire.
00:08:38
Speaker
I don't want to touch the red wire. I don't want to make you feel like you are threatened. How can I communicate this differently? So I think it might be helpful at this point to tell ah shortened version of a story of each of us, because part of our healing has come through not only understanding the stories that have made each of us who appeared on the stage of marriage, but to learn about the other.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yes. Because that's what brings compassion. All right. You have one in mind particular. I do have one. You want to go first? No, want you to go first. You go ahead. Okay. So again, this wasn't formed, this desire to be emotionally safe wasn't put into words when we got married, but my body was looking for a place where I could just Exhale and be okay. I didn't have to worry.
00:09:35
Speaker
um i think I probably had anxiety as a child. um No one knew because I contained everything. And I was so committed to being good that I didn't talk about the things that worried me.
00:09:49
Speaker
And you would put a smile on your face. I put a smile on my You had a great smile. but it would be sort of a shield. Yeah. And so I don't know if I've said this part on here before, but I was not a huge reader when I was little. I really preferred to play outside with friends, but I went through this season in middle school where I was obsessed with books about people's journeys with cancer.
00:10:12
Speaker
Okay. And I think as I look back, My heart was craving for some safe company with which to land where my suffering could like have a home, so to speak.
00:10:25
Speaker
Okay. So wouldn't have had words for that, but I just knew I couldn't read these books fast enough. And I would lay in my book and ah in my bed and read these books. Unlike. any other book you could hand me. Like I would kind of go, yeah, whatever. I'm going to write my go card. These are what captivated your heart. captivated me.
00:10:43
Speaker
um Do you remember what it was about those books? that Yeah, I think it was my suffering had a safe community in which to land. Because these people were suffering. pain, yes. Normalizing that, hey, you're going to feel pain. These books were all about the journey.
00:10:58
Speaker
And I didn't have a place to land the journey of my pain. I had to be really contained emotionally and really, really good and unbothered. That was how I got connection.
00:11:10
Speaker
and um But one of the stories that comes to mind, I was, i think, eight and my dad built both of the houses that I lived in growing up. Like he was not in construction.
00:11:25
Speaker
He was actually an accountant turned photographer, but he was very frequent. And so he figured out how to oversee a building project and how to outsource the things that he couldn't do and how to teach me how to caulk. And so he was building the house that I would live in from the time I was 10 until I left home, which is the only house of mine you ever knew. yeah um And so we were living in a rental house and it was in the quote, bad side, bad part of town.
00:11:59
Speaker
And so there were lots of disclaimers about what it was going to be like to live in this area of town. um And so I was already a little bit nervous, um but also it sounded a bit exciting. to I knew there was a little girl next door my age, and so and we could walk to some places. So there was part that seemed exciting.
00:12:19
Speaker
But we went into the house. ah This was probably right before move-in day. And i was told the room that was picked out to be my room was the room in which the previous owner had died. Oh my gosh.
00:12:36
Speaker
And so I'm eight. And that that did not sound adventurous or exciting to me. It sounded terrifying. No. But I remember laughter in the room as this was announced.
00:12:48
Speaker
And so my little heart stopped and i don't know if I ever spent a night in the room. um I mean, i don't remember sleeping in there.
00:12:59
Speaker
So I went and I slept with my older brother. So I figured out a solution, yeah but there was, as I entered marriage, because I had not unpacked any of that, my body was so desirous of safety and of kindness, not laughing mockery, but safety in which I could be afraid, safety in which somebody would say, oh, you're scared here. Let me help you figure out a solution. Okay. So instead I figured it out, but I did it on my own. So
00:13:37
Speaker
We get married and I'm still looking for this safety, but I'm also convinced because that's not the only story where this was a theme, but I'm i'm ah equally convinced that you're not really going to save me.
00:13:54
Speaker
You're not really that good or more so I'm not that worthy of being saved is probably the better way I would phrase it. And so desperate. I'm desperate.
00:14:05
Speaker
for a human to come and make me feel okay. And I'm convinced that no human is ever going to find me worth saving. So anytime that you did not care for my fear or my anxiety, and I brought anxiety into marriage or anytime that you laughed in just a certain way, yeah my body would get activated. And it I didn't know it at the time, but I was back in this little rental house, concrete floor bedroom, believing that I was all on my own.
00:14:42
Speaker
And you had a longing for somebody to be the bigger, stronger, wise person yes looking out for you and first saying, hey, don't worry about the haunted place. yeah We'll let your dumb brothers leave there. Did I say that second part of the sentence? Like the man died in here.
00:15:01
Speaker
slat colon We hope it is not haunted. We hope it's not haunted. that's That was an important pronouncement. And that's where it terrified me. Because by this point, I had been to sleepovers where kids wanted to watch...
00:15:16
Speaker
Freddie, what is it? Like Friday the 13th and Freddie, who was Freddie? Friday the 13th was Nightmare on Elm Street. Nightmare on Elm Street. All those. And I would get terrified.
00:15:27
Speaker
Had y'all done the Ouija boards by then? Because I know you you and your friends did Ouija boards at some point. We did the light is the feather game. And can you talk to the dead uncle game on the Ouija board? in my way You know, mass pandemonium with a group of little girls who are like elbowing each other and making the board move. And then being convinced they saw something out the window. So yeah, fear is very present in my body at this point. Okay. Yes.
00:15:50
Speaker
And so that and what made it really challenging, of course, is you you had no understanding of this, which meant you couldn't communicate to me. no. Here's what's going on.
00:16:01
Speaker
No, I was scared and to cover that mad as hell. Yes. Okay. And so that, I wasn't sure what what I was going to mention as my story, but I think it fits beautifully. um So my hero in the books I read as a kid, you know what I'm going to say, is Encyclopedia Brown.
00:16:20
Speaker
Okay. Encyclopedia Brown, for those of you who may be too young to remember, was the boy detective. Yes. Before the Regersham novel. 25 cents slammed on the gas can in the garage would get him to take your case.
00:16:32
Speaker
That's right. And so Encyclopedia Brown, the name of his, like one of the episodes or one of the books of, it was all every short, it was a bunch of short stories, but they were all, you know Encyclopedia Brown.
Childhood Influences on Marriage
00:16:45
Speaker
And the name of one them is Encyclopedia Brown Solves Them All. That was your favorite. but Yeah, it was my favorite because the the premise of that was his dad was the chief of police and his dad would come home with a perplexing crime that happened that that you know the the cops couldn't figure it out.
00:17:02
Speaker
He would tell Encyclopedia the story over dinner and Encyclopedia would have it solved by dessert. By dessert. He would know exactly what had happened and know who bad guy was. And then he translated that into what you're talking about, the court on the gas can.
00:17:14
Speaker
He would translate into he ran little detective agency for his friends, for people who were his age. Out of his garage. And you can imagine how I gravitated to this yeah as a third, fourth or fifth grader.
00:17:25
Speaker
Number one, this guy was the smartest person in this world. He made the sense of the world. And I, because my family was so chaotic, I was longing for something. to make sense of the world um and in a place where I could i could stand out. And I realized a lot of my you know challenges and stuff, my my parents took center stage. Their conflict was the central element of our family.
00:17:49
Speaker
I don't know what we would have built our family around otherwise, other than maybe my soccer a little bit. like But basically I wanted answers. And so, and, and it happened that i was a smart kid and I did well in school. I even had a couple of friends would call me encyclopedia. i was born, you know, of course I puffed up hugely inside. yeah I can imagine. I'm the smart guy.
00:18:09
Speaker
um And so imagine I bring that in and I'm longing for answers. It's not just, ha ha, I'm smart. It's, Hey, people see me when I'm smart. People regard me and think I'm special.
00:18:21
Speaker
Because when my parents are having all their chaos, I'm not feeling special at all other than I'm sort of in the middle of it trying to you know say things to my dad or bring comfort to my mom.
00:18:34
Speaker
I'm operating on this adult level, solving things trying being asked to solve things that I can't solve. have no business really trying to solve. Meanwhile, I can't just you know be a kid and just have things just be ordinary.
00:18:46
Speaker
So imagine I bring that into this dynamic in our marriage. When you start, you know, ah having a strong reaction to something or being inconsolable or having an angry reaction, I want to figure that shit out.
00:18:59
Speaker
And there was a part of me that wanted you to figure it out. Yes. Yes. But I'm thinking about it from all my brain power. yeah I'm thinking through it in terms of words.
00:19:10
Speaker
That wasn't the right thing to say. Okay, what else can I say? I'll say something different. I'll say better words. But it's still, it's it was not genuine attunement to you.
00:19:21
Speaker
What do you need and curiosity about why you need what you need. It was, well, I got i got a new idea. I'll try this and this will fix it. And then it would sometimes work for a little bit. It might be better than what I did, but it never worked for long.
00:19:35
Speaker
Right. Because I think it was your left brain to my right brain. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. We've never, folks, we've never actually put that together, even juxtaposing the two kinds of stories exactly.
00:19:46
Speaker
For me, it feels a little bit, even a deeper level of revelation happening right here, um which you can see the mismatch of that and why that led to conflict. Because eventually, I'm exasperated because I feel like I've done everything and I've tried everything and i I've read the daggone marriage book and I'm doing the right thing. Even, even folks, even we started going to counseling, I think there was a time period when I weaponized that.
00:20:09
Speaker
Like, Hey, remember what our counselor said? Remember we're supposed to do this, but I'm still trying to figure it out. It's still a puzzle. It's still a something for me to solve.
00:20:20
Speaker
Not how do I show up differently? Cause Encyclopedia Brown, He might have had an empathy. I don't remember, but that's not how he solved his problems usually.
Expressing Emotions
00:20:29
Speaker
um And I remember i remember a poignant moment, actually. I was i i was on a men's retreat one time, and I remember the speaker had you know been saying something else about relationships. I don't remember who it was, but I remember being in the middle of that creek that runs through Montreat.
00:20:42
Speaker
And I remember my encounter with God being, him saying, lay down the tools. Everything you learn, you are trying to use to extract happiness from your wife or bring happiness to you get the marriage to be it's supposed to be.
00:20:59
Speaker
You've got to stop. And my counselor, I think, had been probably saying that too, but I came to this moment of like, oh my gosh, I do that with everything, don't I? There's got to be a solution and this one will work. And having to die to that, and it and it felt like that because I'm like, what do I have?
00:21:13
Speaker
Well, because what you had had to date was helping your mother survive. Yes. A really painful marriage and divorce.
00:21:24
Speaker
And having to do that while being an eight year old and a nine year old right being right woefully. Okay. On the one hand, horribly unequipped to do that. shouldn't have been in that role.
00:21:36
Speaker
And I did develop some attunement and caregiving skills, but it got all jammed up. And I didn't know when, when can I not be in that mode? Right. Right. And you got applauded by your mother for being such a good man of the house. Oh, yes.
00:21:52
Speaker
Right. And so that bound you to come in and you would make our home flourish. Yes. Now, great desire, but not not one born out of desperation.
00:22:03
Speaker
Right. Now I'm over here wanting you to save me. Also, it's not it's a job too big for you. yeah But then when you would fail, either because you did it wrong or simply because you were human, yeah it confirmed my belief that no one would ever really save me.
00:22:22
Speaker
And that you weren't worth saving. And that I meant I wasn't worth it, but I would never be made safe. Now, sometimes that would get put on God. We'll take that up with God.
00:22:35
Speaker
But I also didn't feel safe with God. Right. Because I had never felt safe with humans. And so part of my journey has been finding places who can hold my pain. And you have become a part of that group yeah um over the years. Yes.
00:22:53
Speaker
Once I could feel safe with some humans, it was more of a possibility to be safe with God, which now I feel. Yes. But at the time, it was all riding on people because God was such a stretch for me to feel safe with.
00:23:09
Speaker
And when you didn't come through, it was just a little reminder of, Wendy, you were foolish to ever hope. that goodness would come for you. So then we're both left in our corners. Because I've got, I'm over there going, i was foolish to ever think that I just wouldn't be used. And I was just consumed. Yes. And there's, you know, my, the crowd my heart is is there space for me?
00:23:31
Speaker
yeah can i just and And I was carrying so many unexpressed feelings yeah of rage and anger and and hurt and pain that I had no place to express. Now, they would start coming out yeah in our conflict. I would, when something got laid, I would blow up.
00:23:47
Speaker
yeah And I would you know kick the shit out of something or break a glass. or yeah this There was rage in me that I had no... for a long time, no explanation for it. And then started to understand, wait a minute, there's a part of me that's inside that has some things to be angry about that predated before you ever came along and something's coming on.
00:24:04
Speaker
And I experienced that same thing as you also. Some some place had to be some group of people and ended up whether it's a counselor or a a counseling group had to be a safe place for me to actually explore that rage not bad chris stop being angry why are you so angry and and the sin of ah you know don't sin in your anger and yeah anger ah you know man's anger does not accomplish the righteousness of god all true things yes but i had anger that had to have a vehicle somewhere.
00:24:33
Speaker
I had sorrow that you had to have a place somewhere. That's like telling a depressed person, would you just stop feeling sad? Yeah. right like yeah It doesn't work. Yeah. It doesn't work. And I don't think that it's what God intends.
00:24:47
Speaker
I think that God is about tending to the heart and the brokenness of life and the way evil has come against God in the form of his people as image bearers.
00:24:59
Speaker
And so these stories
Empathy and Relationship Transformation
00:25:01
Speaker
matter. And one of the verses that comes to mind when I think about that um and and just the concept of learning to be more genuinely empathetic, I think I was...
00:25:12
Speaker
I picked up on people's emotions and and and and could read them. But to feel with them, to have empathy was a harder thing because, not because I wasn't capable of it, but because I was scared of what does that mean? going be me left.
00:25:28
Speaker
But I love Apostle Paul's words um that one thing that Christians do is rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. And, and that, that's become a weightier and more momentous. um That's, that's not a light phrase. Oh, just be happy with people. haven't yet No, no no To mourn with people, to grieve with people, I see and experience. I've just experienced really differently. Like you said, with other people.
00:25:56
Speaker
holding me as I go into my story and I let the rage kind of have a place to go. And and it's been helpful sometimes for you not to be there yeah because these people don't have to you know go home with me afterwards. And you do the same thing.
00:26:09
Speaker
um And then there's this coming together that can happen when both people have done some of that healing work. And and what you heard us do in this you know episode is the product of like years, if not year decade plus, where we can say, I want to come when we're getting up against those rough edges.
00:26:31
Speaker
How can I bring curiosity and ask and be curious rather than furious? Easier said than done. um And can't can I bring kindness and kindness for what you experienced that made you react certain ways and not just pissed off that you react certain ways that I can't stand?
00:26:48
Speaker
Well, I think... To me, the benefit of processing my life in this way with story work has meant that I have found a safety inside myself with God that then affords me the opportunity to let the experiences you have endured both break my heart and bring appropriate anger so that I can love you and not resent you because you are not meeting my needs.
00:27:20
Speaker
So it's not even just about like it helps with conflict. It's back to Dan's comment. There is more. There is more intimacy, more connection, more love.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yes. So when I can shed tears or feel anger on your behalf, yeah then I actually can love you even when you're not meeting me the way I need.
00:27:45
Speaker
yeah But the other half of that is that I have done enough of my own work that I long for you to meet me in places. yeah And I'm not desperate when you don't.
00:27:57
Speaker
Now, sometimes I still am, but of course that that that is the trajectory. I love your use of the word trajectory because that's what it feels like. Like we... we it doesn't mean we we get this right all the time.
00:28:09
Speaker
um we We don't, but we we catch it and we can see what's happening sometimes quicker yeah or recover quicker. Like, oh, I, and so, we but but you, I believe have learned, you have called me to to be better and to grow up in some ways.
00:28:28
Speaker
And when it's not coming from the desperation, when it's not coming from the, I have to have this or else I'm going to kill you or, or check out what's coming from the strength. It's actually really compelling.
00:28:38
Speaker
It's actually like, okay, I can't, I can't blow this off as you're just overreacting or use this or that. I am sort of caught when that happens. And like, I, I need to reckon with this. You may have something to offer me here and in your steadiness and your peacefulness about it is, is helpful.
00:28:57
Speaker
it's It's refining because I'm not getting hung up on, you know, how it came out. um And so the idea that we want you all to understand as we kind of bring this episode to an end, um the way we'd phrase it is, you know, in story work, in a marriage, know,
00:29:13
Speaker
it's a process of learning to see the other person with an eye towards, as Wendy said, what they've endured and have a respect and an honor for the stories they've lived through. Honor, I like that word. Honoring what they what formed their ways of seeing themselves, their way of seeing the world, their way of saying expectations and how they learned to self-protect, to fight, to flight, ah to to flee, to run um or to check out.
00:29:41
Speaker
can you get but past just here's the the strategies they adopted important to know those but what was the pain what was the heartache what was the hurt that led them there grieve that together and it's it's this kind of great cyclical sort of thing instead of the chaos cycle and you drive me nuts but you drive me nuts and you just can't yeah you you have a different source like we're like oh my gosh i had no idea yeah And now that I understand you better, I ah one ah want to honor you differently.
00:30:13
Speaker
And we feel like we've been tasting that. And it's this weird thing of you can't give it to the other person if you haven't experienced it for yourself. If you don't have it yourself.
Impact on Parenting and Society
00:30:24
Speaker
And that's where it helps to be in a context where there is individual work.
00:30:31
Speaker
or your own work with another group. And then you come back together and say, how do we how do we integrate this as a couple? Because times we're like, we're so aware of what we're carrying. there's There's sort of desperation of like, well, I get to go first. No, I get to go first. yeah and And even having to to work through that of how do we get enough safety that we can enter in together? And sometimes you don't, we will not get it right on the first try.
00:30:53
Speaker
um What you're hearing is reflection and looking back that we we hope you keep trying to get better at doing. Right. And as we close, I just want to point out too, look, we are all products of stories, including our children. Yes.
00:31:10
Speaker
Okay. And so we have created or crafted portions of stories that our children have lived, that have marked and affected them for good and also for ill.
00:31:22
Speaker
Sure. And so we do not say any of this out of a place of, merely being those on the receiving end, but we have also been those on the giving end.
00:31:36
Speaker
And there have been conversations and there will be more to come with our children about how it has been to be parented by us. yeah What it is like to be in relationship with us and to be solid enough for them to say, hey you're doing that thing again.
00:31:54
Speaker
yeah Where I can't talk about XYZ because it makes you nervous about ABC. Yes. Like we are called to love our children in this way as well, knowing that we have authored some of the stories that they've had to endure.
00:32:13
Speaker
And we have both been agents in in ways that we have said things or operate in ways that were harmful. And there are other places where we weren't aware. We weren't tuned in. We didn't know.
00:32:25
Speaker
and and And it's partly because they didn't feel, there may be things they didn't feel safe bringing us. And we want to be receptive and own that. yeah That is not easy also. But that's, I think, the amazing thing about conversation.
00:32:38
Speaker
As you understand your story more and more deeply and with greater kindness and compassion for yourself, it actually changes how you operate. Really, for me, it changes how you operate with everybody. Yes.
00:32:49
Speaker
I'm now doing family law work you know most of the week um while I'm you know still in school, getting my counseling degree and all, but I am sitting with people who are hurting and making decisions.
00:33:00
Speaker
terrible decisions or or good decisions in the face of their spouse making terrible decisions. And I am able to sit there and and hold myself together and bring compassion and kindness to them, no matter who they are. Sometimes I'm representing the abuser. Sometimes I'm representing the person who's being abused.
00:33:17
Speaker
yeah And I want to you know be that safe presence, even though my job is, I'm not to be their counselor, but yeah I at least can be that safe presence where they can relax a little bit.
00:33:27
Speaker
yeah um So I think it's valuable yeah really as we, you know, to me, it's where that, that verse about sharing the sufferings of Jesus has become yes to be a little bit more meaningful.
00:33:40
Speaker
yeah They used to be like, okay, great. So i'm signing up for suffering. What does that mean? don't get it. But it's really, um you know, Jesus was acquainted with grief. yeah He was acquainted with his own grief when he was, you know, weeping or or crying, sweating blood. yeah He's weeping for,
00:33:56
Speaker
what humanity has done and what he's experienced and what the world is about. And we can, as we grieve, as we process feelings, it really is transformative into who we are.
00:34:07
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And, you know, redemptive love is fueled by the grief of hope. So that's a great way to phrase it. We'll leave, we'll leave the people there.
00:34:20
Speaker
There you go. Well, ah can I add one more too? Yeah, you What's the verse? Perfect love casts out all fear. I remember hearing that and thinking, okay, so just be loving when you're afraid. It's a little bit more complicated than that, but but experiencing love.
00:34:35
Speaker
of people just being able to hold your story yeah and say, actually, that, that sounds worse than you're saying it is. That's actually, do you understand that a seven year old maybe ought not to have to have done that right or experienced that disappointment or whatever it is? yeah um Being loved and being held in our pain, that's where it dissipates that fear you were talking about. yeah And fear is a good thing to try get rid of.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yep. So thank you guys for being with us. And we'll be back.
Next Episode Teaser
00:35:05
Speaker
Hey there folks, we are going to pause the conversation right there because we've got a little bit more to say on this topic. The idea of story work being done by couples in a variety of safe contacts is something that's super important to us personally, but also it's really at the core of what we want to be about at Nurture Counseling.
00:35:25
Speaker
And so stay tuned for part three in which we'll talk through some of the frequently asked questions about story work. We'll talk through some of the the challenges that it presents and and how we navigate those and particularly the challenge of what if one partner is more eager or interested in story work and and more ready for it and and the other is not.
00:35:43
Speaker
If you have any interest in any of our Marriage Story Work offerings, such as a Marriage Weekend or an intensive one-on-one with me and Wendy, or with a Marriage Story Group, please let your interest be known.
00:35:56
Speaker
Email Elise, E-L-Y-S-E, at NurtureCounseling.net, and we'll be glad to add you to our wait list. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.