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00:00:01
Cultivating a Deeply-Rooted Marriage... with Dr. Dan Allender! (Pt. 2)
58 Plays20 days ago
This one has it all: Logs and specks, vows and curses, mustard seeds of faith, our relationships with power and control... and a compellingly redemptive conversation on a ski slope...
We pick up the conversation with everyone's absolute favorite marriage themes, lust and anger. Yep. :-) As off-putting as that may sound, you may still want to hear the rest of Dan's story. We discuss how coming to the end of ourselves (which often happens when our individual triggers show up) can offer beautiful opportunities for spouses to taste true redemption.
Tune in for Part 2 of our lively interview with Dr. Dan Allender, our friend, mentor, wise guide, and source of inspiration in everything we do at Nurture Counseling and here on the podcast.
Pre-order The Deep-Rooted Marriage here to get access to some special companion resources: https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/deep-rooted-marriage/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Surviving Saturday' and its themes
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons. Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That Sunday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us his peace and his presence at times when he feels distant or even cruel.
Meet Wendy and Chris: Navigating life's challenges
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach.
00:00:51
Speaker
Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
Understanding sin: Lust, anger, and transformation
00:01:08
Speaker
So, owning the reality of what what Scripture demands of us when Jesus defines sin, he talks about it as lust and anger. And lust is not primarily sexual. It's when desire has gone mad, when you're consumed in using and exploiting and anger. And we normally think of that as well. Yeah, I can be hot tempered, but no, Jesus says lust is adultery and anger is murder. So I was getting caught as an adulterer and murderer. And what a
00:01:46
Speaker
fabulous place to get caught in order to enter into the reality of what the preached word, what what indeed the ah the pleasure of what indeed truth in church is meant to be. Yet, at least in that moment, um there was nothing but, ah again,
00:02:11
Speaker
that deep sigh of I am so far, we are so far from what I thought a good marriage, a good family would end up being. And so letting all sorts of illusions, presumptions, really and maybe the core word would be self-righteousness.
00:02:33
Speaker
You know, a lot of that's got to die for not merely truth, but for the potential of repair to occur. And so when we ah deal with Romans 2, verse 4, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.
00:02:51
Speaker
You know, I think there is, ah ah for us, and Becky I think would agree, there there's there's no one's presence of kindness that's deeper than hers. and And in that, I think I have been the beneficiary of the face of God.
00:03:08
Speaker
in a way that um we want. It's one of the core, shall we say, purposes of of writing this book is to invite people to see you you really are the face of God on behalf of one another. And that niceness, just getting along, is never going to change the heart. It may make life easier or so it appears, but it will not change the human heart. And kindness in the face of lust and anger, of misuse and some degree of violence. You know, not being a patsy, not enduring harm in a kind of go ahead and beat me virtually or literally, but far more that I can expose but also invite simultaneously to the life that you most desperately need and desire.
Ski trip story: Kindness and family redemption
00:04:06
Speaker
Well, and there's a beautiful story in the book that you tell that really illustrates that, the story where you're on the ski trip and you're you're skiing with your youngest child, I believe, Andrew, and you go, I mean, you tell the story of going you know back up the mountain and and just the way, maybe tell it briefly, but just how, the way Becky intervened with such dignity and called forth goodness out of you. It it like it moves me every time. but Well, we were skiing early season kind of hard packed ice. We were living in Colorado and our girls went down. They were cold. And so it's just Becky and I and our eight year old son, Andrew, and he.
00:04:52
Speaker
ah was a great skier, but had had an accident the year before that really terrified him. So we're at the beginning of the new season, and I think it's still lingering. His trauma is still lingering, and he is terrified. And I'm pushing him to get down, like, go, let's go. You can do this. And finally, Becky just said, why don't you go on down? Why don't you go on down? I'll get him down. And part of him was like, fine.
00:05:17
Speaker
you you You encourage him down. I'm done. I skied down a couple hundred yards, waited for them, and I could see they were not moving. In fact, not only not moving, but Andrew had collapsed on the ground. And it became, to me, clear ah that Becky's kindness was not going to, quote unquote, work.
00:05:39
Speaker
So I began the process taking my skis off. And again, it's a pretty hard pack slope. So getting up the slope, nearly impossible. I eventually had to go almost to the edge where there was a cliff, where there was a bit of snow. And if anyone's ever tried to make their way up, let me just tell you, 20 yards in I am Like it was freezing, I am now boiling. and I'm feeling it as you say it. I am feeling it as you say it, just ah the frustration of trying to to get footing where there is none. It's just conspiring against you. I'm hot by rage, I'm hot literally sweating. I get up, eventually put my skis on and I start moving over to them and I see Becky move in front of Andrew.
00:06:28
Speaker
And it's clear, she is now standing to defend our son. um It was not just, hey, i want I want to get closer to you. It was clear. yeah She is a barrier to my rage. And I move toward her, and but without screaming, I just mouth the word move.
00:06:50
Speaker
And she quietly shook her head. I wasn't angry. It was just a ah clear, no, I'm not moving. And I got in her face. And again, I'm so angry, I'm now cold. And I just said, move. And she put her hand on my heart. And she began by saying, I know the men who have humiliated you. And right there, just one sentence, she is now cascading memories.
00:07:19
Speaker
of my father, of mentors, of a pastor, of friends, and then in her next sentence is, and I know that is not what you want to do to your son.
00:07:35
Speaker
And with something in those two sentences, I know the men who have humiliated you, and I know that is not what you want to do with your son. And again, i I don't know how the Spirit works. I know the Spirit works. And at that moment, she caught me so clearly in memory, but also desire.
00:07:57
Speaker
and there were tears, and she pushed her hand against my heart a little harder, and she said, you're a good man, and skied away. And she didn't wait to see what would happen, but the story essentially ends up in the catastrophe that my son skis down fa famously, I skied out and ended up crossing my skis and literally creating a a yard sale. And my wife, with great concern, because I really felt hard. I mean, it was a even recounting it. It was like, oh, it was a painful fall. But I got it all together. I got down there. And literally, ah they both put their hands and arms around me and collapsed in laughter.
00:08:49
Speaker
when they finally got up and honored me with, we're glad you're okay. There was a sense as my son s skied away where Becky looked at me and she said, and you will never forget this. And it wasn't just because of the drama, the humor, the catastrophe of my fall. It was far more. And I don't know if she knew all that she meant.
00:09:13
Speaker
when she spoke those words, but essentially what she was saying is this movement of repentance will be a gift for you to know what it is like a thousand times more to face your own failure, but also be received back with the laughter of God. And it has been one of those memories for me where I would say it was awful, just awful. I am so sad for the harm that I brought my son then and many other times. But I also know there is something in that that feels so sweet as a taste again of what redemption can bring.
00:09:54
Speaker
Well, and I'm touched because if you all had settled for less in your marriage, you wouldn't have had that opportunity to taste true redemption. And I feel like when couples come to me, we felt it ourselves, but it, it,
00:10:11
Speaker
The narrative inside is often something is wrong with our marriage. Now, is it the way we're called to treat each other? No, but maybe it is the pathway to exactly what God wants to do if we will let Him. And so in that case, we're we're on the right track if we're willing to speak and we're willing to listen.
00:10:33
Speaker
Oh, Wendy, so brilliantly put, so well put. That's the core of really what we're trying to get across in the book. What would it mean for you if both of you in your own humbling found yourself raised up high? That again, we don't raise ourselves up. There has to be an ownership of the log in our own eye. And we think the word log in our own eye means solely our sin. I don't think it means that.
00:11:02
Speaker
I think it means whatever hinders us from being able to see well. So what what keeps you from seeing well? and Well, in my case, the unaddressed anger and a heartache of having to tend to a woman who consumed me and making something of a vow without even knowing I'm making it, I will never, I will never be used by another woman or any other human being ever again.
00:11:32
Speaker
So it's
Unspoken vows and trauma in marriage
00:11:34
Speaker
blinding me, that vow, that failure of addressing that wound. is the log in my eye. So with Becky's brilliance and kindness, what she's inviting me to is, can we see in the present how you are living out the past? But with the promise that the future holds the potential of such redemption, that it is worth the heartache in the present to begin to do that unearthing.
00:12:07
Speaker
So if we can use the future as the promise of all things will one day be restored, then we can have the courage to look at the past, to begin to have that sense of how it has formed and shaped us in particular ways to manage, to handle trauma, and yet how it continues to bind us in ways that are no longer helping us survive, it's actually helping us lose the very hope of we're that we must want. Yeah. I mean, one of the vows I came into marriage with that I had no idea I had was I will not be harmed by a man who has power over me ever again. And so that vow can come up quickly and it can sound like all men suck and you almost must die.
00:13:05
Speaker
It can come furiously. I think I can follow that. yeah And so I've noticed in the last few years, I'm drawn to movies and shows that have very feminine, but very badass villains. And it's because they're not waiting on redemption. They're taking it into their own hands. And that's not truly who I want to be, but that wound has been so deep and repeated so many times.
00:13:38
Speaker
that it can come up fast. And so I was touched, this is near the beginning of the book. I'm just going to read what I wrote down. This is you. In our partners' moments of vulnerability and failure, we reveal God's kindness and patience to them. Now this is if we choose to grieve our own pain and step into this role. so had four In our partners' fear and pain, we channel God's strength and comfort.
00:14:08
Speaker
as we have the honor of seeing who they are up close, we express God's sheer adoration and enjoyment of his creation. And that, like, I want more of that. I want to give it and receive it. And that is the taste of heaven, like the foretaste that that you're speaking of. Like, what is it like to be raised up and to raise up that way?
00:14:34
Speaker
Well, what you've said is if we don't deal with the triggers, if we don't deal with the vows that are, again, most of us don't make these vows in a kind of public, articulate way. They are so much more unwitting, subconscious, and yet they still have the power. So when we begin to unearth, open up the door to how ah that ah how our past has in many ways, brought about some degree of ruin, it then opens up the possibility of coming back to you know what you were saying, Chris. Oh, it makes sense. Oh, my gosh. Here we are again. And in that moment, it's not justification. It's not explaining it away. It's just, ah oh, oh, oh. Maybe I can take a step back and go, right now I feel enraged.
00:15:33
Speaker
What's going on? It's not that big of a deal. It's really not that big of a deal, but something's getting triggered. So rather than dismiss it, or just feel guilty and ashamed, instead to be able to go, well, let me do what Psalm 42 and Psalm 43 does, where you see the psalmist saying, oh, my soul, why are you downcast with this?
00:16:00
Speaker
So the notion that it is biblical to talk to yourself. And I don't mean by that. Where I leave my keys? ah But that kind of inner conversation of, there is something going on I don't understand, but I need to ask, oh, my soul, what what is going on? And here we actually believe that the Spirit of God is going to engage your spirit in a way in which
00:16:34
Speaker
and God will join the conversation. And I think many of us fear that what the voice of God is is a voice of condemnation. So when you hear and God ask, Adam, where are you, Adam? Is it said with accusation, judgment, said with grief and invitation? And from my standpoint,
00:16:59
Speaker
ah trying to understand the voice of God without hearing directly through the Scripture, the voice of God. Yet tenor of the voice of God is compassion, not judgment. So the ability to be able to say, when he asks Adam, where are you? When he asks Cain, why has your countenance fallen? It's an invitation to join the conversation, not justify, but to be able to go, well,
00:17:28
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know why my face has fallen other than I want to kill my brother. um Why am I hiding? I feel ashamed. Can we now explore that? And the idea that a marriage is meant to be the most trusted relationship to explore the darkest realities of our heart with the deepest conviction that the beauty and the presence of Jesus within us is also the most beautiful part of us. And therefore, what what truly wins is resurrection. Death and our sin never, never has the final word. When we believe that
00:18:11
Speaker
when we believe that, even literally, a small seed. you know, what Jesus says is, you could throw this mountain into the sea, even with a mustard seed of faith. So I think for all of us, our marriages, all we have to have is a mustard seed of faith to actually come to a point of going, we can have something so much more than what we have. On the other hand,
00:18:42
Speaker
It will never be a full escape of of a taste of hell, but it is possible, possible to have so much more a taste of the eternal pleasure that we will one day all enjoy.
00:18:59
Speaker
Well, and I think that's one thing that you have invited us to repeatedly many times. We were often surprised. I mean, we we were in an early church, we were mentoring other couples and we were saying things about marriage and and learning concepts. But it's really only been in the past five, 10 years where we've crossed that threshold of, and it's required going into our own stories.
00:19:24
Speaker
an understanding wait there's so much that's been missed the narrative of my house was so simplified so. Fragmented but also you know so it up in a way that it's taken exposure to other kind people to you being among them to speak in and go.
00:19:42
Speaker
what you have normalized is not actually normal and it has affected you and there's part of my process and that is at times has been to resist and of course to you know do not want to hear that um you know, I would rather be no doubt. I would rather go somewhere else. And it's really through our marriage has been the place where, you know, coming to the end of myself, having to just be undone. I remember times I would sit in a swing when we were in you know halfway in our marriage, looking back now, um but just
00:20:21
Speaker
not knowing that we could repair where we were. It was so exposed. we We had fixed all the externals and we were still in this hard comic place. And I was having to confront, who am I?
00:20:34
Speaker
if I don't get to kick continue being a husband and who am I if I failed as bad as it feels like I've failed and and having to let go of sort of everything and feeling these waves of grief and pain that was kind of the beginning of that. And there's this sense of this is the reason I didn't want to feel this stuff. you know This is why I've crowded my life with so many other things because I don't want to go here because I was afraid this pain and this grief would undo me and I would never get up again.
00:21:03
Speaker
yeah And having that experience of, I did make it, I didn't die. And actually I can see something redemptive, something good of God in it. yeah That was transformative.
00:21:16
Speaker
But you think how many couples and the the percentages of what's now called gray divorce, people who've been married 25 years and more, it is the highest rate of divorce, 25 and above. So you just go people have You know, their kids have left home. Maybe their kids have in some form disappointed them. They're beyond midlife crises, not sure of when they're going to retire, if they're going to financially be able to retire. And you kind of go, well, we're looking at one another kind of going, is this it?
00:21:54
Speaker
Is this like what life is going to be? Is like waking up next to this snoring body in the morning? And you begin to go, oh, the mundane exhaustion. Then add you know the reality of, well, I know you're looking at pornography. I know you're actually looking at other people in a way in which you you're aroused more by them than me.
00:22:18
Speaker
And you add all that, ah and then add affairs, and then exhaustion, et cetera. And you go, and we're asking you to do the spade work of looking at the past? And I know there must be listeners going ah of yeah out of your mind.
00:22:34
Speaker
they're mean this is You don't know what we're going through, and now you're adding a new burden. And there is a degree to which I go, I get
Embracing 'clean pain' for redemption
00:22:44
Speaker
it. And yeah you got two choices. You can die from the pain you're in, or you can maybe find life in a kind of new pain that opens the door to a new freedom. And that's, you can't, you're not going to get out of pain, but you you can choose what ah a brilliant writer calls clean pain versus dirty pain. And clean pain is the clean movement to the possibility of redemption.
00:23:16
Speaker
you know Well, there is so much in this book, and admittedly, I've not been able to finish it.
Audience and goals of the new book
00:23:23
Speaker
But how do you hope couples will use this? Well, one of the things, and it's it's just plain true, 65% to 70% of the readers are women. So what I like about it What I hope is that 30% of men will read, but they're probably a person. So what what I would hope is that a a woman, a wife, would read the book and basically go, there are things in this I want to talk about.
00:23:53
Speaker
And I think many men are going to go, oh, I don't know. I don't want to read a book on marriage. Great. and then Let me read you sections that I want to talk about. ah And I think the book is well written enough ah to be able to capture a good man's heart to begin to go, yeah, let's talk about that. Once the couple is in the book in some form,
00:24:18
Speaker
you know I mean, ah I won't deny the fact that I hope they buy two copies. um Go dog ear different sections and underline different. Do you see this? how you know but But I also don't believe in unicorns. So but let's just say that what I would hope for ah is that once they get in and and and some degree of conversation, that the next step would be um the ah guide, that the workbook ah that we've created with it. that
00:24:51
Speaker
literally will take you not so much chapter by chapter, but a process that I think is pretty equivalent to going through marriage counseling. um And so once you begin that, I mean, honestly, the next dream is that the book would take you to the ah to the guide, but then the guide would get you into far deeper, richer conversations that open the possibility of being in a small group, um seeing a good therapist, talking with your pastor because none of us change in isolation and even for a marriage.
00:25:31
Speaker
You don't change unless you're willing to, in one sense, invite the process of of wise men and women into the engagement. So the dream of dreams, yeah, by the book. ah ah And then but the workbook will open the door to a bit more. That companion guide, I think, is actually incredibly well done. and We'll do more than just give you a few questions. It will really take you far deeper. But we need people, not books. We need people. And so, you know, if if in the ultimate sense of the word, I would rather them see you, Wendy, as a therapist, if the choice was the book or you, I'd take you.
Community's role in marriage growth
00:26:18
Speaker
But I think there can be an ally to the good work that people do with a good therapist, a good friend, a good pastor, just a good community growing our marriages together.
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, we've had a good taste of that a little bit with the calls and with some other people after and follow up to the the marriage enrichment workshops that you guys have done. And it's that powerful opportunity where everybody can see the other people's dynamics.
00:26:49
Speaker
better they Nobody can fix their own. But everybody can see reflected, and it's even fun to watch you know people rise up and and and give care and show kindness. And they're like, can we do that here? Well, yes. And you just got a little lab work, a little practice doing it. And it becomes a little bit easier. And it's helpful to have other people sit and name. I was going to mention this earlier. When other people can see and have a chance to go with you into your stories of harm,
00:27:18
Speaker
and they can help you see more rightly and and undo what's been normalized that turns out is is is not normal and was formative. The power of that empathetic witness that's been demonstrated over and over is is and unvaluable.
00:27:35
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the book comes out January 21st of the Year of the Lord 2025. But if people go on Amazon pre-order, then they get the access that, you know, the the publisher wants you to pre-order. So those are the benefits. They, you know, they they promise that one of us will come cut your lawn. Perfect.
00:28:01
Speaker
that Becky will show up and make beef stroganoff. And you know if you believe that, then I also have a small bridge. and but But actually, there are some really sweet gifts for those who pre-order a webinar that will be just for those who pre-order. So again, we're ah trusting and believing that this will bring goodness. And that's what we want, that there will be a sweet taste of being able to look at one another and say, you really are the face of God on my behalf.
00:28:37
Speaker
Well, and speaking of that, there's one other thing we wanted to highlight that I think also feels different about this book. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it's not just Steve and Dan writing. There are lengthy, meaningful sections from your wives, Becky and Lisa. Talk about what that was like and and how the inclusion of them sort of adds a new dimension to it.
00:28:58
Speaker
Well, you you know you have two older white males writing a book on marriage. And know it is a little like you go, really.
00:29:10
Speaker
um So it it was so imperative to have the voices of our wife. They're not primary. They don't do multiple chapters. But every section, they've got a part of reflection on what we're attempting to address. Plus, at least in the companion guide, ah we have videos that people can watch that are attempting to help you take those first steps ah you know in pondering that. So there's sort of multiple structure to, again, capture not only your interests, but get you going on the first three or four steps on what feels like, and it is a lifetime journey, but we all need to make three or four steps just to begin it. Yeah. Well, thank you again for the ways you have stewarded your life, your marriage, your time.
00:30:08
Speaker
Thank you for talking to us here. um We really do want people to benefit from your book, from your work, and know that there is always the hope of greater tastes for redemption. So thank you. It's been a pleasure. No, we're so happy to be with you both.
Nurture Counseling services overview
00:30:27
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time. Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops, and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness, and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:30:54
Speaker
and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net