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Kissing "Purity Culture" Goodbye? image

Kissing "Purity Culture" Goodbye?

S3 E3 · The "Surviving Saturday" Podcast
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69 Plays9 days ago

We all have stories about how we first learned about sex. If asked when and how you were told about it, and by whom, what or who comes to mind? Were you given "the talk" by  a parent, or a youth group leader, or maybe your Health teacher at school? Or maybe you were surreptitiously given (or found left in your room) a book or a brochure to read, and perhaps with an invitation to "come back with any questions." Chances are, if you grew up in a Christian family or church context, there is likely some element of shame, fear, or at least discomfort with the topic.  (So kudos if you happen to still be reading.)

And if you were alive and anywhere near evangelical Christianity in the late 1990s, you may remember the iconic cultural phenomenon of "courtship." The surprising catalyst of this movement was then 21-year-old Josh Harris, author of the Christian bestseller, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye."  Harris' take on how to honor God while pursuing a suitable marriage partner practically flew off the shelves, catapulting him to "stardom" and launching him into a career as a public speaker and as a pastor.

Here's the thing, though. Like all 21 year olds, Josh grew up, and unsurprisingly encountered challenges in his professional and personal life that defied simplistic answers. The church where he pastored blew up, spectacularly, and his marriage imploded as well.  

The resulting crisis of faith led him to enroll in seminary, where another strange thing happened:.  When the subject of his book or his preaching and speaking career came up, several of his classmates had stories of how the book had impacted their lives... And, uh, not in a good way. 

People whose faith and humanity he respected told Josh that the messages in his book had conjoined with broader messages in Christian subculture about sexuality, lust, and protecting one's "purity" at all costs. And the cumulative effect had left lots of them feeling tremendous shame.  Shame for the mere fact that they had sexual thoughts. Or for the fact that they had little idea what to do with sexual desire when there was little courting opportunity to be found. And many described having found themselves,  once married, horribly ill-informed and unequipped to have a sex life at all (let alone a fulfilling one).

How Josh responded was courageous. He listened--first to these seminary peers, and then to  people he had encountered or ministered to directly, and ultimately to hundreds more people who had thoughts as well (through an online poll).  He was troubled by what he heard. 

What he did next, though, is nothing short of extraordinary.  He re-read his book and reexamined it, based on what he had learned through life and by listening to hours and hours of feedback.  

And then he retracted it--even had it unpublished.  He has since dedicated a significant portion of his time to walking back the harm his words had worked. 

He's not minimizing what he did, or making excuses based on his youth or background. And he's not cashing in on his repentance, either.  Instead he is amplifying the voices of several gifted Christian authors and speakers who are leading the way in unpacking the legacy of the evangelical church's teachings on sexuality.  

We are honored to have Josh as our guest.  On March 1, he'll be joining Charlotte's own Stephanie Stalvey, author of the forthcoming graphic memoir Everything in Color: A Love Story at Warehouse 242 for a talk on recovering from the aftereffects of purity culture. But here's a chance to get to know him beforehand, in the privacy of your own headphones.  

We hope you will listen, and maybe share this special episode with a friend or two, if nothing else just to see what kinds of honest, relationship-building  conversations it might spark.


 

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Transcript

Introduction to 'Surviving Saturday' and Hosts

00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about finding hope in the midst of life's disappointments. We resonate with the powerlessness that Jesus' first followers experienced as they waited between His crucifixion on Friday and His rising on Sunday morning.
00:00:27
Speaker
We feel led to bring light and goodness into a world that aches and wonders when relief will come. Here you'll find no easy answers, just honest conversations about actual pain through the lens of a suffering God.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor based in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a counseling intern and family law mediator. Join us as we wait together for more.
00:01:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome back. Hi, Chris. Hello, Wendy. Lovely to see you yet again.

Guest Introduction: Josh Harris

00:01:08
Speaker
We are here today with a guest some of you may have heard of um former author, now speaker, former pastor, Josh Harris. Hey, Josh.
00:01:20
Speaker
Hey, thanks so much for having me on the show. So glad to have you. So intrigued to hear your story. um You wrote a book that came out in the late 90s, Kissed Dating Goodbye.
00:01:35
Speaker
That's right. Yeah, 1997.
00:01:38
Speaker
1997, the year before our first child was born. So we're we're just about at three decades. We were saying that we we weren we did not come up during that. We we were we had married by then. So so dating was a far thought. And our kids were a little young.
00:01:54
Speaker
ah They weren't dating anytime soon um since they were just still being born. But I remember reading about you in Christianity Today, reading about the book, reading about sort of the the hubbub, you know, and and it was kind of a a movement sort of thing. So you're culturally fixed in our minds, definitely as you remembering that moment for sure.
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah. And you authored this when you were, it came out when you were 21. Is that right? Yeah. Right around there. That's right. Right around there.

Reflections on 'Kissed Dating Goodbye' and Cultural Impact

00:02:23
Speaker
So would you start by just bringing us into the story of how this book became a thing that you did?
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah. Boy, um it's it's crazy to to think that that's been almost 30 years ago. um And sometimes I think, you know, why am I even still talking about this? Yeah. And the answer the answer is is that um ideas have consequences.
00:02:54
Speaker
And ideas, especially around sexuality and marriage and all these kinds of things, are obviously so central to what it means to be human.
00:03:06
Speaker
and the decisions we make around those have such long-lasting consequences, who we marry, the people you know who we start families with, all those kinds of things. So yeah, 30 years ago, I wrote this book, and um I'm still talking about the fallout of it because there's been you know real negative impact in many ways.
00:03:30
Speaker
um so So, all that to say. before you keep going when i first heard the book think it was probably so we were involved in church planting here in charlotte and it was probably among some of the people coming to the church straight out of college closer to the demographic that it was written for. And they were like, oh, you know, I read this book in high school, like his dating advice. So I've just always courted or, you know, co-parents with us. Like, oh, I think I'm going to practice this with my children when they're older. and I remember at the time thinking, um okay, well, that sounds kind of interesting. Sounds kind of safe. Like you sort of
00:04:12
Speaker
Data is a friend group, so to speak. You're all a pack, sort of like moving around from place to place. um And I remember thinking, i probably have questions. i don't really get how this works because it was very different than my own experience. um But what led you to the idea of courtship. Right.
00:04:33
Speaker
Yeah. So I was um raised in the church.

Josh's Upbringing and Purity Culture Influence

00:04:38
Speaker
um My family was really closely involved in the homeschool movement, the Christian homeschool movement in the 80s and 90s.
00:04:49
Speaker
So when I was a teenager, I was the oldest of of the kids in my family, oldest of seven. And um you know for my parents, it was kind of like they they homeschooled their kids to pull them out of you know and and the ungodly influence of the public school system, secularism, all those things. huh And then you know these kids became teenagers and the hormones kicked in. And they're like, whoa, wait a second. We didn't do all this homeschooling to have them run off with... you know right
00:05:21
Speaker
Getting into trouble with dating. And so um part of what happened in the homeschool community is this this, you know, my parents' generation, they started talking and saying, well wait a second, this isn't healthy. We don't want our kids to do what we did when we were teenagers because we were, you know, that was the 60s and we were doing all kinds of stuff. And that's not what's going to happen. And, you know, and so they had a kind of reaction and started looking for alternative voices. And so, for example,
00:05:51
Speaker
um Elizabeth Elliot's book, Passion and Purity, was a big influence. um You had people like Bill Gothard with his basic life principles talking about you know the umbrellas of authority and talking about courtship and those kind of ideas. um And so you know really the mindset was we dating takes place outside of the home. We don't want that. We don't want ungodliness and premarital sex. We should bring this into the home under the influence of parents, under the authority of parents. So you know i was hearing that message from my parents and the homeschool community. And then in youth group, I was a part of an evangelical megachurch youth group, and they were talking about
00:06:40
Speaker
abstinence and true love waits. And you know the Southern Baptist Convention was doing a ah big push. um you know this was The culture wars were in full effect.
00:06:52
Speaker
Parents were worried about premarital sex, abortion, AIDS, all these things. And so they were saying to their young people, sex is something that you save for marriage. you know It's this gift that you give your spouse. So I was hearing all of these messages all the while, had a secret girlfriend at the youth group, was making out with her, was you know was doing all this stuff, did not want did not want to read Passion and Purity. I was like, no, thank you.
00:07:18
Speaker
And so- Wait, I'm just thinking of how terrible that title is. if you're No adolescent boy is ever going to pick that book up. with that passion and purity. Yeah, absolutely not. I joke that i read the i I read all the passion and I skipped the purity. That was my approach to that book at the time. Gosh. So, you know, that was kind of the the atmosphere and the bigger...
00:07:43
Speaker
cycles or things that were taking place in the world around me. i was just a kid and I went i kind of went through ah ah a kind of personal moment with the Lord where i i've got serious with with Jesus.
00:07:58
Speaker
I rededicated my life to the Lord and i wanted to serve the Lord. I wanted to do great things for the Lord. And so I followed my dad into public speaking.
00:08:09
Speaker
I started traveling with him, talking to other kids about you know homeschooling, started publishing a magazine. And in that magazine, we started talking about these ideas that we were hearing about, dating, courtship, and so on. And that's where I started...
00:08:26
Speaker
and essentially taking in all these ideas and saying, you know what? We need to be serious about the Lord. you know We say we we're supposed to save sex, but if we're dating, it's leading us into temptation. Here's what it really means to be on fire for Jesus.
00:08:40
Speaker
And there was a huge response to that. um And that's when I wrote this book. I got a book contract and you know It's crazy looking back now, thinking about the you know the influence that that happened at such a young age, but it was really me as this passionate, ill-informed, naive kid saying, hey, everybody, we need to we needed to go even further if we want to be serious about serving God. And it just caught on and snowballed and became you know this really kind of influential
00:09:13
Speaker
moment where all this frustration with dating and concerns about worldliness and parents and pastors and so on, it all you know unfolded in what we now look back on and call purity culture.

Context of Book Release and Evangelical Culture

00:09:25
Speaker
Well, we should point out that this was also all pre-advent of the internet or the internet becoming ubiquitous or anything. And even the idea of, oh my gosh, your dating pool can expand to people anywhere and you can have matching, you know, services. I remember when people first, it was probably about five or six years after that, we met the first people who had met on oh yeah Harmony or Match.com. So you didn't have that it's a sort of technological structure out there saying, hey, Christian Mingle, find these people.
00:09:57
Speaker
And so as you're describing it, I'm struck by there's an appeal of, hey, we're going to protect you from the some of the the craziness that would happen in dating and all. And also just the whole emphasis on, and we look back on it a little bit differently now, but in the middle of it, it was coterminous with, it was one-to-one with evangelical Christianity.
00:10:20
Speaker
If you love Jesus, you think this way about sexuality and you think this way about marriage. And we were defining ourselves by, we're not like those people. not quite heathen, but mainline churches, you know, that aren't as serious about it.
00:10:35
Speaker
And there's a little self-righteousness to it. i think Even just that we bought into dating out there is unsafe. But I can have them in my house and they're safe. it just the I'm thinking, you know, look, we were homeschool parents. We were not trying to keep them from the evil of the public schools.
00:10:55
Speaker
However, I think I thought they would skate on through life without much trouble. Okay. But the bottom line is there is a failure to recognize Oh, the darkness out there. i'm not immune to it in here. It may be a different dark, but I'm not going to, by having my children in my home all the time, make them immune to sin or painful interactions. I think I was secretly hoping that our kids would date and and fall in love with somebody in our homeschool group. At some point in time, I think that thought entered my head.
00:11:29
Speaker
we've all kind of grown and gone separate ways. And now it's a horrifying thought. I'm like, that would have been no guarantee, no protection against anything. And and if ah not, you know, either direction. I mean, that's so naive, but you know, I could see the appeal though.
00:11:44
Speaker
And I want to look back and, and I'm sure you've had to grapple with this, that there's a bit of a tenderness I want to pour out on these younger selves where there was an earnestness, like you were wanting to do something really good and right.
00:12:00
Speaker
Right. I mean, now there are ways and we'll get into what led you to retract the material, but at the time what was the good that was guiding you? Would you say?
00:12:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think the good that was was guiding it was a a sincere desire to...
00:12:27
Speaker
protect myself and others from the games and the selfishness that can happen in, you know, relationships. And, you know, even today, you don't have to look far for people to be frustrated with dating.
00:12:41
Speaker
You know, it's a, yeah it's a, it's a mess out there and people are, um you know, they're insincere, they play games, they hurt each other. you know, there's a lot that, that takes place there. And I think I looked at all of that. I looked at ways that I'd,
00:12:56
Speaker
you know, broke in the heart of my high school girlfriend. And there's real conviction. There's this real sense of, I want to do something different. And here's what the Bible says sincere love is, putting the needs of others first. You know, if we're really brothers and sisters in Christ, we shouldn't be using each other in these ways. like All those things i think I still think are quite beautiful. ah yeah And so on. And i think you know i look back on my parents and um I think they were doing their best to try to protect and you know help their kids. And I think part of you know you grow older and you live a little bit of life and you just recognize that
00:13:39
Speaker
when you have that desire to kind of control and I'll do anything to keep my kids from experiencing what I experienced, it can be well-intentioned, but it often backfires. you know There's just yeah a reality to the complexity of life that when we when we start gripping things too tightly, it can actually create a different set of of problems potentially. And I think that's the the thing that I've had to to grapple with over the years, that regardless of my good intentions,
00:14:07
Speaker
a lot of the ways that I wrote my book, the emphasis of it and so on, it did instill fear. It was like, well, if you do the wrong thing, it's going to be really bad. And ask if you if you follow God's plan, it's just going to be you know peaches and cream and you know rainbows and all those kinds of things. And again, it's easy to, in a desire to protect and to help others, to overpromise.
00:14:35
Speaker
or to use fear to try to control, you know to go beyond what Scripture actually says, to kind of seal the deal. you know All those kinds of things. You kind of play fast and loose with Scripture, and you end up creating new rules. You end up creating rules outside of the Bible. And that does you know come back to to haunt you. Well, I was thinking about just as you were saying that too, um what are the key gospel passages, the red letters that Jesus said about dating?
00:15:05
Speaker
I can't think of one at all. um He talked about marriage. Yes. But it was mainly about certificates of divorce. And, you know, you you might leave husbands, wives, fathers, know, Jesus had no guidance on dating.
00:15:19
Speaker
And that when I just see even sit with that thought, I'm like the fact that that and it wasn't just your book. There's so many others that canonize these. These are the principle Christian principles about that. And like our kids are like,
00:15:31
Speaker
If you get your dating principles from the Bible, then you're talking about dowries and Leah and, you know the whole Leah and Rachel story just makes them, you know, scratch what is going on here. um It really, it I can see it now is more, isn't it interesting and almost kind of comical that we thought there was something so strongly prescribed.
00:15:52
Speaker
where where it's not. and And we do that a lot with scripture, I think. um But that's, to me, it's ah it's a more glaring area now, but you couldn't tell me that, um you know, during that time frame.
00:16:04
Speaker
Okay. And so, look, I don't want to miss that some people that benefited from the book may still hold the principles dear.
00:16:15
Speaker
You know, they may say, you know, that really protected me. Yeah. And so I want to, I want to bless your earnestness and bless that it has been, you know, a gift to some people.
00:16:27
Speaker
What opened your eyes to begin to wonder or to see actually there's some content in here that seems more harmful? Yeah.

Realization of Book's Negative Impact

00:16:39
Speaker
Well, it was a really long process, to be honest. I i didn't um contemplate that or consider that for a long time because I was yeah convinced that this was God's message and the fact that it it was a bestseller was just more confirmation. Yes. Yes.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yes. One, it worked for you as well. right you Well, that's right. i got I got married and even if it hadn't worked for me, I couldn't admit that to myself because then my whole life would crumble. i'd have to have to I wouldn't be qualified to be a pastor. i wouldn't you know all So there's just a lot of of self-reinforcing um things that were taking place. But um you know I think essentially I hit a point in midlife where Things didn't turn out exactly as I hoped. you know The perfect church that i I thought I'd been a part of um erupted in in controversy and division. um Fights between leaders went public. ah you know People that I had relationships with that were mentors, those relationships were broken. There was a lawsuit because we'd failed to report sexual abuse properly. like All these things happened that really yeah left me in this place of being like,
00:17:54
Speaker
i I wanted to be a pastor to help people, and ah I've actually you know helped build something that's not helpful to people. So there was a lot of disillusionment and sadness. um And during that time, I stepped back from being a pastor to go to seminary because I realized, you know what, I need to learn in a different context.

Re-evaluating Beliefs and Stepping Back as a Pastor

00:18:13
Speaker
I need new voices. I've i've learned everything I know about leadership here, and I need to to step away from from this.
00:18:21
Speaker
And it was in that moment that i I had this space to start evaluating a lot of different parts of my faith and and life and so on. I was i was a student.
00:18:33
Speaker
like I wasn't having to be the pastor who is defending the party line, teaching everybody else, you know all those kinds of things. And I just, I started listening to the stories of my fellow students, like, because they were sitting next to me like, oh well, do you want to hear how your book was used for me? And and I was listening to them. In that context, in that seminary context. Yeah, for sure. who had Oh, what a setup.
00:18:57
Speaker
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And and that was a ah much healthier um setting than just reading reviews on Amazon. Like, you know, you can find people that say your book is awesome and people who don't like it and you just, you know, tune out the ones you don't want to read. But when it's a friend and they're telling their story, that's a different experience. And yeah so I actually threw a...
00:19:20
Speaker
a many, many different things took place to bring this about. But essentially, this process of evaluating my book got pushed into the public through an interaction on Twitter.
00:19:32
Speaker
And i realized, you know what, I need to really step back and ask the question, what do I think of this book? you know It's not enough for me to just be like, well, I'm sorry if it was misapplied or i don't agree with everything in it. you know like I was like, I really need to do an accounting and evaluate this. And so while I was at ah you know graduate school, the semin the theological seminary,
00:19:57
Speaker
um I did a guided study with one of my professors. I read all these different books on on sexuality and sociology and you know history and and was really just trying to understand what are the things that shaped the world that I was growing up in? um What was the the impact of this book?
00:20:14
Speaker
And I reread the book you know after many years and with with new eyes. And That process of listening to stories, inviting people to share their stories, actually doing a documentary where I went out and and talked to people face-to-face about it, um it was a long process. It was a scary process along the way. i wanted to you know pull the escape hatch and just like end it because it was scary. Yeah.
00:20:41
Speaker
But I eventually got to this place of like on balance, I can't stand by this book anymore. like i can't Knowing all these stories of how it's it's caused harm to people and and infused fear with people and so on, um I can't you know be proud of it still being published. And so I apologized for the book. um My publisher...
00:21:05
Speaker
I'm so grateful for them. They unpublished these books um and and took them off, stopped putting them out into the the world. um And so that was a that was a really big step for me. Yeah.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah. Your integrity is stunning. Okay. Like you began to hear people's stories while looking them in the face and And you chose to grapple with what had formed you and then with what what you had formed had caused in

Negative Consequences and Need for Open Conversation

00:21:38
Speaker
others.
00:21:38
Speaker
Like that is so courageous and so integrous. Like many people I think would do what you said, you know, of like, well, I can't be responsible for the way everyone applies it reads it. And I was young and I didn't know everything. Okay. Right. But lot of people would stop right there.
00:21:58
Speaker
Right. What you're describing to me like... Believe me, I was tempted to do that. Of course. course. Why would you not, right? The question is more, why did you not stop with just that? Like this feels to me like an incredible act of repentance.
00:22:15
Speaker
Yeah. Well, what thank you for saying those kind words. i i I look back on it and I do think that... um There were so many ways in which so many parts of my life were falling apart. you know my My sense of identity in in being a pastor, my sense of identity in being this author, behind the scenes, struggles in my own marriage, you know doing all these interviews with people and hearing the effects of purity culture and realizing, oh, like,
00:22:47
Speaker
This has also shaped my life. like There was a lot that was taking place there. And so I i really appreciate your encouragement. I i feel like um you know if you if when you look at all the details of how it unfolded, it was sort of a A beautiful mess. It was a beautiful mess that that humbled me enough to be willing to to take that step. um But i i'm i'm grateful to I'm grateful that it unfolded in the way that it did. I wish that I'd seen these things sooner.
00:23:18
Speaker
um there's ah There's been a lot of collateral damage. But um you know that's part of the the chance that that we're having to talk. is because of you know part of my hope for the rest of my life is wherever I can tell this story you know as honestly as I can, acknowledge the part that I played, share what I've learned, not that I have all the answers now, but just say here here there are unintended consequences of these kind of ideas, and then highlight voices that are that are speaking to this. um And that's where you know I'm coming to Charlotte with Stephanie Stalvey because she's got a yeah ah book coming out. and she's She's this amazing graphic artist, this talented writer, and she's written this graphic memoir that's telling the story of growing up in that purity culture context that my book helped to create. like you know We've become friends across the continent, and she was this teenager that had Ike's dating goodbye in her nightstand you know and was shaped by this.
00:24:20
Speaker
And the power of her story, which is so incredible, is that she she tells the story of like the impact of those ideas in you know in her own body, the the fear, the the tangible like effect of of these, you know what I would now say, wrong ideas.
00:24:39
Speaker
even though she was in a loving, beautiful relationship, there was shame, there was guilt, there was all these you know all these impacts. And she she tells that story in a way that I just think is so beautiful and so healing. um And so I'm like trying to to come back around and say, you know what, I helped to make this mess.
00:25:00
Speaker
Look at these beautiful, incredible, talented people who are trying to clean it up and who are using the power of story to to tell a better story, honestly. yeah Well, I want to highlight something for for listeners who may not know, because what a lot of people might have done ah is then, okay you write the retraction book and you then make that a big deal and you make your living on the speaking circuit again. okay I'll undo it all. You're not doing that. You have like clear and loud.
00:25:29
Speaker
ah We were looking into your your main business, your main way of making money is you've got kind of branding and and message development and coaching and all this stuff. And you're not making money off of you know walking back what you do with I Kissed Day and Goodbye.
00:25:44
Speaker
And in fact, you are amplifying the voices of the other people who are out there with that story to tell. Yeah. And it's just amazing and unheard of. yeah I just want to make sure people understand that it's not, yeah okay, yeah. Because we've seen that. We've seen the, okay, you caught me.
00:26:00
Speaker
And now I'll write about that. And now I'll be the guy who who got you know who fell really hard, but then wrote about that really well. yeah And they're the the public, and especially the non-Christian public, non-Christian public is like,
00:26:12
Speaker
y'all are messed up, you know, like it's true. sleep But before, want to make sure people understand that, but I would love for you to say more if you can about what were, it and if you have ideas without, you know, saying people's names, but what were the stories you heard?
00:26:28
Speaker
What was the impact ah that, and and how did it affect you to make you go, oh my gosh, I'm not sure this was helpful. Can you give people sort of a a taste of yeah of, of what you did here and how it affected you?
00:26:44
Speaker
Oh, boy. and The volume ah of stories was was quite overwhelming. I put out a request for people to to share on my website back then. And I think we got close to like 600, you know, responses. Wow.
00:27:00
Speaker
You know, in some cases, you know. long responses telling the details of their stories and then um as part of the the documentary that it was a student-led documentary it was crowdfunded we made it available free so again not a money maker in any way for me but um we had a day where just people were calling in from all over the world i was just doing these short little calls with dozens and dozens of people And I i think the thing that I would say, like some of the things that stand out to me um would be stories of people who even after they were married felt shame and guilt around sex.
00:27:41
Speaker
Yes. So it's like they they spent so many of their single years with this crushing guilt, any sexual thought, any impulse, interacting with the opposite sex, you know all this kind of ideas of shutting that down, that's wrong, flee temptation, you know and so on. And then they get married and they're supposed to just flip that switch on, you know and it's everything's going to be you know perfect.
00:28:05
Speaker
Well, that's so ah that doesn't normally happen that way. Yeah. No, doesn't.
00:28:18
Speaker
that those ideas your body is bad your body is sinful your so you know sexuality is constantly trying to lead you astray well those ideas, they take root in in our bodies.
00:28:31
Speaker
And it's not easy to just like suddenly become this you know amazing sexual creature um who's just excited and and ready to dive into things. so And part of the problem was- That was one story that was really consistent.
00:28:45
Speaker
I was going to say, we we even though we were you know dated and married before your book, but we were impacted by that aspect, I would say, of period. I would say we were, again, in a you know weird sort of window because we grew up in the 80s, went to college in the late early 90s.
00:29:01
Speaker
But we were impacted by that. The expectation, what was told to us young you know men, teenagers was save yourself from marriage and the sex will be wonderful and it will be right plentiful all the time. And you won't have to worry about, you know, lust and stumbling again.
00:29:19
Speaker
what right tro What a what a, but it felt like a, you know, well, that's okay. And so then when it, when things weren't as easy or didn't flow as easily, which was certainly the case for us, we're like, well, dang, what's wrong with us? Or do we do something wrong? Do we go too far?
00:29:35
Speaker
Yeah. Even though we didn't have yeah intercourse, do we go too far in in whatever we did? Are we being punished for that? You're wracked with all kinds of guilt. Yeah. Yeah, it's really true. Yeah, that that story was was so common. And and then I think um you know just the the stories of where people were, you know they didn't have the opportunity to interact with multiple people before they got married. you know yeah there There wasn't a healthy pattern of dating so they could understand who they are, who they match up well with, you know those kinds of things. And so... they're looking back and they're like, wow, I married this person so quickly, had no idea what I was getting into. And it's because of this incredible pressure to to not date and court and, you know, pursue marriage quickly. So it's just ah it it was a pressure cooker.
00:30:27
Speaker
Like, relationships and marriage, it's already hard. like it' you know it's complex It's complex in any era, in any religious context, it's complex. But there was this pressure cooker of you need to do things right so that you honor God. you need to you know Any kind of sexual activity is the biggest deal. you've you know You've lost your virginity, all these kinds of things. So there's this psychological pressure where you're literally worried that you'll ruin sexuality for yourself for the rest of your life or possibly go to hell. I mean, it's like as if you need any extra trauma. Yeah, exactly.
00:31:04
Speaker
But some of the metaphors or images that were used were just so healthy and destructive only in retrospect. Yeah. Of having to, you know, I remember what was it? There's like chewed bubble gum. Who wants to chew bubble gum that's already been chewed?
00:31:19
Speaker
That is just horrific when you stop and think about that. Yeah. it's ah it's It's wild because... um you know we just We don't treat other, what you know in in like the Christian ah world, when it comes to talking about behavior and sins, we don't treat other sins that way.
00:31:43
Speaker
you know We don't come up with these crazy metaphors for greed. like Every time you're greedy, the bubble gum gets chewed. It's just like, oh, well, if you know just to repent of that. you know You'll be fine. So it really was this this moment where, again, sexuality is unique because of a lot of different reasons. But the the social issues that were taking place, the control issues, the fear, you know there was a lot more going on than how do we help people thrive as human beings? that that was not There was a lot of other things that we're factoring in, which created this environment of let's ratchet up the the you know the promise and let's ratchet up the the fear so that we control behavior. And yes as long as people get married and they're virgins, everything's great. That is just so short-sighted.
00:32:34
Speaker
It seems very simplistic. Doesn't it? like it if If that was all it took, yeah. We probably wouldn't have divorce rate. Well, i and I think the the reason that i like you know stephanie ahbb and Stephanie and I have been working on the content of this this event that we're doing called Beyond Purity Culture She's the the main event. I do just kind of introductory remarks. Then we're having a dialogue portion and a Q&A portion. She's going to share you know the journey of of creating this this book, her new book that's coming out.
00:33:10
Speaker
And one of the things that we've dialogued about is just like the reason that we think this is so important to have this conversation is not just...
00:33:21
Speaker
a looking back like, oh, 30 years ago, purity culture happened and let's you know just dwell on the past and so on. It's because these issues are so right now.

Impact of Purity Culture on Current Generations

00:33:32
Speaker
They're so present. like Every new generation is dealing with this. um you know The fallout of these ideas is still affecting people's relationships, their view of their bodies, their view of sexuality, and so on. And If you spend time in certain parts of you know TikTok or Instagram, you'll find there's a whole new generation of you know kids that are kind of like you know the new version of I Kiss Dating Goodbye that are popping up and are sharing these kind of radicalized views of sexuality and so on, ideas about marriage and so on. And I'm not i'm not trying to like criticize them. I think it's important they have the freedom to have the views that they have. But we're trying to come and say, hey, guys, like
00:34:16
Speaker
there are implications to these things that you might not have thought about. And we've lived through them. And so let's have this conversation. Let's talk about you know the impact of these ideas.
00:34:28
Speaker
Well, and what I find in my counseling practice over and over is parents who were affected by the purity culture still grapple with their own shame sexually if they haven't done a lot of healing work. But then it gets visited on their children.
00:34:49
Speaker
Okay. And their children may be in a very different place. Their children may be in a, I can do what I want, you know, place, but now the parents are projecting their shame onto what their children are doing. I'm not saying don't protect our children. Not at all. I think there is a lot of toxicity that goes on in teenage dating and there's a lot of rape culture and, you know, I, I'm all about protecting our children, but this purity and sexual shame continues.
00:35:21
Speaker
um And so I find that it's often we have to go upstream to help the parents get free so that they can guide their children in a way that both has integrity, respect, love, and care as they want to lead them through dating.
00:35:42
Speaker
That's so powerful. I'm so glad that you're doing that that kind of work. And i I think it's just a reminder of how interconnected we all are, right? Yeah. Like when we pursue healing, when we're willing to go back and ask questions about why we did what we did and what the... you know, the results of that was, and, and how can we be more healthy today? Like that work spills out into the people that we're connected to. So I love that you're, you're talking to parents about those things and, um, helping them to be a, just ah a better source. Well, and let me be clear. And I have since repaired and laughed with our children that the sex education I did with them sucked. Yeah.
00:36:29
Speaker
It was through homeschooling and it was reproductive systems. And I came to them later and I'm like, I failed you. And two of them looked at me and giggled and they're like, it's okay, mom, there's the internet. you know And we had a good laugh. They're like, they're like, we know it all. I'm like, can you ask me anything? They're like, really? We're fine. But in all honesty, I was still too caught in my own shame because Body shame, sexual shame to have the conversations that needed to be had. And so we're having more of those as they are now adults, you know, of like, what does all this mean to all of us? Like, how do we deal with our bodies and with the fact that we are sexual beings? um Well, and you'll notice that she's the only one who refers to any kind of conversation. Yeah.
00:37:19
Speaker
or any, you know, mention of sex sexuality, which on the one hand, you want to respect the dignity. me I'm not sure, you know, yeah we raised all daughters. Yeah. We raised all daughters and they may not have wanted dad to say a lot about the subject. Okay.
00:37:33
Speaker
But for it to be so taboo and for it to be so, oh my gosh, you know the idea, you know, that I, both of us are sexual beings. Um,
00:37:44
Speaker
And for that to be so taboo and so hush hush, but let's don't acknowledge it I'm not saying you should be just you know out in front like, look, kids, watch you or anything like that. Nothing um to desacredize or to make things worse, but to make it so taboo and so off topic for it to be so awkward when it comes up is is, you know, there's got to be a corrective somewhere else. I remember a friend saying a long time ago that the cure for for wrong use is not disuse.
00:38:11
Speaker
It's right use. um The cure for not talking about sex is not, you know, and for talking about wrong is not to just not talk about it at all. That makes it worse. But what is it? And if you are, have you done anything, I guess, or you, I guess some of the people that you are involved with promoting their work are because we don't want to just be saying, okay, not that.
00:38:34
Speaker
You might get a lot of easy, know, fairly easy agreement about that, but what's healthy? What's better? What are you finding then that people are are gravitating to as a positive? um Don't kiss anything goodbye, but embrace this.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, this is where um I'm really grateful. There are a lot of amazing voices that are focusing on embodiment, understanding pleasure, consent. I see a lot of somatic coaches, therapists that are speaking to this. um It's not my area of expertise. And so i'm just I try to just like re repost and highlight you know voices that are that are doing this this kind of work. um
00:39:22
Speaker
i But I do think that those are some of the really important common themes to even be able to acknowledge and appreciate you know the ability to experience pleasure, not just sexually.
00:39:36
Speaker
but in the broader use of the word sensuality is kind of a shift for a lot of people, you know? And and I think a lot of people through a misapplication of biblical ideas have shut down that part of themselves. Yes. And yeah and so reconnecting with with that is is something that's that's really important. Yes.
00:39:57
Speaker
Again, i keep coming back to to Stephanie's work because I'm yeah such a cheerleader for for what she's doing. i I do think that there's something really powerful um about her storytelling being in the form of a graphic novel. And I know there might be some people like, I've never bought a graphic novel. I don't read comic books.
00:40:18
Speaker
Make an exception for Stephanie's book. Yes. Because it's almost like it's almost like a a written a written book is powerful, obviously. can paint a picture and so on in your mind and and everything. But as she draws these images of her own story and shows her reaction to the concepts of purity culture and even shows the beauty of her relationship with her husband, James, and their love story,
00:40:43
Speaker
um it embodies that on the page. Like you're seeing these things and even the pictures of them, you know, kissing, like there's a part of it that's like, oh, there's a little shocking like for, you know, your prude Christian reaction. But it's an example of like holding out the the the goodness of the physical. you know yeah And so i really I'm really excited for how her work can impact people. And I think you know she talks about how even the process of creativity was part of her healing process. like Connect with yourself, connect with expression, yeah you know even the physicality of painting. Yeah. Which I think is a really amazing insight. like These are all parts of this reversing work from you know the negative aspects of purity culture, which is shut down your body, shut down sensation, you know avoid any kind of you know fantasy or like just anything that makes you feel alive and sexual is bad. So what does it look like to to reverse that? It's not just going out and having sex with everybody.
00:41:52
Speaker
Yep. It's not living a dangerous sexual life or something like that. Right. I think it's it's much more tied to reconnecting with who you are as a human being and the the sensuality of that.
00:42:05
Speaker
Yeah, I often think it's as if sexual shame has been injected into our veins through movements like the purity culture movement. And what will it take to drain that and replace it? Yeah, transfuse it. That's great. With a trust that bodies are good.
00:42:25
Speaker
that sexuality and sex are good. They are not to be brashly embraced or avoided. you know, that that there really is a goodness there. But it flows out of a deeper problem. It's one that we've been exploring, actually, at

Theological Implications and Views on the Body

00:42:40
Speaker
Warehouse. So your your arrival is going to well-timed because we've been, ah this is really where we've at least and you were probably ahead of it uh as far as uh ahead of me and concerns but the idea of embodiment in general i think there's some of our language around um you know uh well the flesh okay we have three in the world the flesh and the devil and the flesh got sort of for me morphed with body body like the body definitely is bad And it's better, you know, passages like ah it's better to marry than to burn. And your body is basically just, you know, chaos waiting to happen. under Your body's what's going to take you down. The spirit of God is what's good. even Even songs I used to like, like I love Switchfoot and I love all their songs, but they got their one where they say, you know, the skin and bones is a rental.
00:43:28
Speaker
You know, they, you know, the body is temporary, the spirit lasts, but that can lead to a denigration of the body and a disrespect to the body. And, and it's been powerful for me to, to embrace, you know, I am a body. There's even a C.S. Lewis quote that I now look at differently.
00:43:43
Speaker
Um, uh, it says, uh, you have a body, you are a soul. Like, no, no, you are a human, which has soul. I threw it away after one of our kids pointed it out. Yeah. Um, love Lewis and Lewis, but, but this whole idea of the body is the enemy is bad versus, well, why did God get in one, you know, and Jesus walked around and and confined himself to one. So it can't be inherently terrible. Yeah.
00:44:10
Speaker
Um, what do we make of that? But to talk about it to the extent you're, you work overlaps with that. Well, I can't improve on anything you said. i just will, I'm just clapping over here. i just think that's so, that's so well said. And I i do think there's, there are a deeper, deeper issues of how we view ourselves as humans and implications to how theology gets applied that,
00:44:36
Speaker
It's just important that we be willing to revisit. And this is where I think, um you know I hope that my story can be an encouragement to to people.
00:44:49
Speaker
It's so easy to ride the hype train of movements and yeah you know bestselling books and then not stay around to see the fallout. And if the fallout is negative,
00:45:01
Speaker
Like, what are we going to do about that? how How are we going to learn from that? Let's not just like repeat that that same cycle again. And so you know this this work, this Beyond Purity Culture event, even the fact that that Warehouse, I so appreciate them being willing to to host this and allow us to come and do this. To me, it's so hope-giving that there are local communities, local churches that are like, no, let's let's do a retrospective. Let's evaluate what we got right and wrong. We don't have to we don't have to be condemned or shamed, but let's let's be willing to face up to these things that we did conferences about and sold books about and so on. If everybody just moves on and is like, it wasn't me, i you know i yeah you know it's somebody else's fault. It's like no one's going to learn. No one's going to grow from that.
00:45:49
Speaker
That's right. So let me take a moment to officially announce. So our church here in Charlotte, Warehouse 242, is hosting you and Stephanie Stolvey that we have mentioned a few times now, who has a book available for pre-order. I've already ordered it. I don't remember the name. Do you remember the name, Josh?
00:46:09
Speaker
um It's called um Everything in Color. Everything in Color. And it is a graphic novel that charts her journey Yeah.
00:46:36
Speaker
She is a lovely voice and a very honest one. She's also just fun to listen to. um So y'all are coming together um to Warehouse 242 in Charlotte on Sunday, March 1st. Is it at what time?
00:46:54
Speaker
Do you remember what time it is? It's at 6, it's 6 PM. is sixty Okay. That's what I was thinking. And then I wanted to make sure I had the time right. So, um, that will be here in Charlotte and there is a way to sign up through your clear and loud website, right? Well, if you, um, actually, if you go to beyond purity, culture.com beyond purity, culture.com. Okay. Yeah.
00:47:21
Speaker
you'll You'll be directed to the site with um all the details on the tickets. And the tickets um go to helping Stephanie be able to take this message to more cities, which is really amazing. um She's giving a portion of it also to a local charity that works with with women who have been exploited. um And I'm just donating my time. So i I'm just excited to to be able to be a cheerleader for it.
00:47:47
Speaker
And you're also partnering up with somebody else i know that Wendy's a huge fan of as well, Hillary McBride. Yep. The author of Holy Hurt. Yep. The book, right? Yep. Can you say a little bit about kind of how that partnership came about and what what you guys are doing?
00:48:00
Speaker
Well, um if if people are are going and and purchasing books, add to your list, Holy Hurt. and Dr. Hillary McBride is a a psychologist and really insightful person who's who's writing about spiritual trauma. naming naming the reality of spiritual trauma, talking about you know what healing can look like in a very um powerful, honest, ah really accessible way. And so um we've had the chance to do several events together where I'm coming to really just share my story. like I was a pastor. i I sadly passed on a lot of spiritual hurt through things that I did and said and Now I'm i'm learning and I'm trying to make repair and I'm trying to to tell a different story. And she shares from her research and um you know kind of the the bigger picture of of what's taking place in regards to to spiritual trauma and how spiritual trauma you know it really touches every part of our our being you know because it's all about ah connection to others, to ourselves, to God. So those events have been really incredible and just being able to participate in those has been a ah real honor for me.

Collaborating on Spiritual Trauma and Healing

00:49:17
Speaker
Yes. And some of those have been recorded, right? i feel like I watched the two of you have a conversation. do you know if We did a podcast interview together. Maybe that's what I saw. And it was powerful. And then she has she also has a whole podcast series called called Holy Hurt, which the book came out of and it was based on. Yeah.
00:49:40
Speaker
And then speaking of body and somatic work, she has the Wisdom of the Body book, which is fabulous. And then there's one that's Practices of Embodiment. I don't remember the name of the book, but yeah she puts really good work into the world. So thank you, Josh. She really does. Amazing human. Yeah.
00:50:00
Speaker
Thank you for the way that you have let your story continue to play out. Thank you that you um did not stop with your original earnestness, but you listened to the stories of the people that were affected in ways that were negative. And you have chosen what I'm calling your repentance tour. I don't know what you're calling it, but it to me is so heartening.
00:50:28
Speaker
to see a former pastor say, i want to make right. I mean, if we would all do this and follow in your footsteps, this world might be looking a little different than it is right now, rather than holding on to control. So thank you. And thank you for being here. Thank you for coming to Warehouse Church in March.
00:50:50
Speaker
Um, I hope, whoops, our cat knocked something down. I, um, hope that people will get tickets and join us for the night of you and Stephanie Stolvey for Beyond Purity Culture. Thank you so much. i really appreciate it.
00:51:06
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time.
00:51:17
Speaker
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00:51:33
Speaker
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