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The Feedback Loop: What Helps, What Hurts, What Heals
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Feedback is one of the trickiest things to get right in any relationship—especially the ones that matter most. In this episode, Wendy and Chris unpack a recent exchange that gave them a front-row seat to what helps… and what hurts. From tone and timing to defensiveness and shame, they name the subtle dynamics that shape how feedback lands—and what it takes to create space for honesty without sacrificing connection.
But this isn’t just a conversation about communication techniques. It’s about the deeper stories underneath our reactions: the expectations we bring into marriage, the ways we want to be understood, and the fear that we’re being dismissed or judged. With curiosity and vulnerability, Wendy and Chris explore how even casual feedback can stir up old wounds—and how intentional language can start to heal them.
Along the way, they offer clear, practical tools: simple shifts in phrasing, a framework for checking your own heart before speaking up, and some laugh-out-loud moments from their own learning curve. Whether you’ve been married for decades or just want to get better at saying hard things with love, this episode will leave you feeling both seen and equipped.
This conversation is real, warm, and incredibly useful. It’s about the gap between intention and impact—and the courage it takes to close that gap with kindness.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Surviving Saturday'
00:00:05
Speaker
Hey there, folks. Welcome to another episode of Surviving Saturday. on Today, Wendy and I thought we might go a little bit different direction. We wanted to kind of let you in on a conversation we had this morning, actually, that we were grateful for because it went a little bit different direction.
Challenges of Giving Feedback
00:00:22
Speaker
The subject was giving feedback to one another. And What are some of the pitfalls and challenges when we try to bring an observation or something that we have a concern about to the other person?
00:00:34
Speaker
And, you know, not just time and and setting, but but just the words we use and that and the spirit we come with. And so it's going to feel a little bit like we're talking about just kind of communication techniques, and we kind of are, but there is a There's a story aspect to
Communication Techniques and Personal Stories
00:00:49
Speaker
it as well. There's aspects of it that do relate to what we are more frequently talking about, which is how we're impacted by our stories and and how that affects how we show up.
00:00:57
Speaker
Does that sound like an okay direction to go to the other way? I think we're talking about attunement to each other. Yes. And to ourselves. And we're we're not going to recount for you some of our very misattuned conversations that have had.
00:01:08
Speaker
Not
Learning from Feedback in Marriage
00:01:09
Speaker
today. Not today. But this one, we were able in real time to to learn something maybe a little bit. And we we hope it'll be encouraging to you. We've been married 32 years. We're still learning stuff. We're still coming up with or coming up against ways that we miss each other and trying to learn how to not do that as much as often as problematic.
00:01:30
Speaker
Yes. Yes.
Morning Routines and Sleep Inertia
00:01:32
Speaker
What was the sort of the initial piece of information that kind of got this conversation going? Something you brought to me. So we woke up this morning and by woke up, I mean your snooze went off a lot of times. You're saying it might be such a high number that that we don't have an accurate count.
00:01:51
Speaker
And it's tuned to a couple of different radio stations and some might be a talk show that I'm very confused about jumping in the middle of. Some might be really loud music where I feel like I'm getting screamed at.
00:02:06
Speaker
Well, yeah, I don't know what station it is. i try to choose something that's purposefully disruptive because if if if if the alarm goes off and it's like NPR and they're talking all peacefully and calmly and blah, blah, blah, I'm going to stay asleep. I mean, that's not going to help.
00:02:19
Speaker
So it has to a little jolting. I wake up like on the verge of a heart attack. but oh I know. I know. In any event. It doesn't help also that. So one of the settings is this radio station that sometimes is blaring music and sometimes is loud people talking.
00:02:32
Speaker
But the other setting right now is an annoying just within the alarm clock. Oh, yeah. That is also I mean, appropriately, you'd think it would get me up. yeah I looked at getting they have those, you know, alarm clocks that will.
00:02:46
Speaker
jump off your bedside table and bounce around and move around the room until you get it. I thought sometimes it might be good for me to have one of those. I think it would be good for you because I certainly always hope I'm up and out before the the one you just described. Yes.
00:03:01
Speaker
yeah So once we were awake, I was... Which I appreciate, by the way. You did not say this while we were still in bed or while I was still finding out this. We were moving on the day. This is before I said anything. This was all in my head. Okay. Okay.
00:03:16
Speaker
I remembered that once you got up and moving, i had a diagnosis I was ready to give you. Oh, because you had read it. I had learned about this condition ok a couple of days ago. Okay.
00:03:29
Speaker
Determined with all of my years of medical school that it applies to you. And i remembered that I wanted to tell you that you have sleep inertia.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yes, and that was a new term, and not the word inertia, I've heard it general, but when you said it, there was a part of it, I'm like, you know, that that does sort of fit. It's when I'm awake, I'm sort of awake and it's hard to wind down and transition and I i stay up too late.
00:03:56
Speaker
And then when I'm getting up in the morning, I definitely like, it's yeah yeah if you know the concept, the physical concept of inertia is a body at rest is inclined to stay at rest and a body in motion will stay in motion. And so in the morning, when I'm waking up from sleep,
00:04:09
Speaker
What you are observing is or suggesting I'm
Experimenting with Waking Up Strategies
00:04:12
Speaker
a body at rest and I don't want to stop it. And that is somewhat true. So, yeah I had read through the criteria from this article in my Apple News Feed and decided you needed to know that you have this condition.
00:04:26
Speaker
Yes. And one of the things I think first I communicated, of course, um from the sweatshirt and pajama pants I was wearing was part of the issue with getting up is we are experimenting with keeping our bedroom super, super cold.
00:04:39
Speaker
Which actually feels lovely. Lovely to you. Yes. And I feel like I've got to I've got to hunker down. And so I'm in the morning when it's cold. um You all know this. At least some people experience like you just want to stay under covers and then, you know, cozy it up sometimes. And so I'm like, that's part of my problem. But that that wasn't really that's not really the issue of why I can't get up.
00:05:01
Speaker
Because as I pointed out with my medical license, you did this way before we started keeping the room cold. That is also very true. Yes. And so I was was chewing on that and I have had, I've done sleep studies before in the past and things like that.
Understanding Feedback and Defensive Reactions
00:05:16
Speaker
So i was thinking, it but I was, I was open enough to it. I'm like, no, that could be a concept. And so I went and looked up. of course, as we all do on the internet. Okay, what do people know about sleep inertia? And what is it? And all that. And I came downstairs and I think what I said was basically, hey, i read about sleep inertia and I get what they're saying.
00:05:35
Speaker
It doesn't seem to be like it's a ah really a diagnosis. It's kind of, they called it a phenomenon. And so I don't really know what to do with that. I'm not sure it really, and and it kind of points to some of the same remedies that I already probably know I should do and and and don't really do well.
00:05:52
Speaker
Right. It's in the category of what the kids and I diagnosed you with a year ago, revenge, bedtime, procrastination, right? Well, it yeah, it definitely, my what happens at night, definitely that resonates a lot.
00:06:05
Speaker
I don't care whether they call that a, if that never makes the DSM-5, I don't care. It sounds right to me like, yes, I'm trying to get back time now because I don't feel like I had control of how I spent my time today.
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, so I knew this was a phenomena. I didn't think it was truly a classifiable disorder. Yes. But it was something that felt like it applied to you. So you came downstairs and you said, it's a phenomena, not a diagnosis.
00:06:32
Speaker
And I started having thoughts right then. and And you do want to share those? My first thoughts were, you're trying to get off the hook. I'm just describing, you don't want to get out of bed in the morning.
00:06:43
Speaker
And it annoys me. Fair enough. So maybe the diagnosis is annoying a husband in the morning. I don't know. Maybe that's as far as we get. But that's fair because we've identified also the two worst times and in our house for either of us, for us to have a conversation.
00:07:01
Speaker
One is when I'm first waking up and what's the other one? When I'm going to bed, which could be like 6 p.m. Not really, but I wouldn't mind it.
Effective Feedback Delivery
00:07:11
Speaker
Right. We have now, after many, many years and much process of elimination, we have eliminated two times that it is not the right time to start a conversation of any significance, both of logistical, practical,
00:07:23
Speaker
or of, hey, my heart, can you connect with me? Because you start to shut down and you're almost asleep before you're really asleep. Right. And I'm not awake until I'm really awake.
00:07:34
Speaker
So we can name that for sure. ah But you kind of had a response to me saying, hey, it was a, and again, I wasn't dismissing it outright. I didn't say that was so dumb you brought that up, you know, which is better because my younger self would probably have done that.
00:07:48
Speaker
But I was like, hey, you know, i I'm not sure it added anything to the mix. And it kind of was making me probably was feeling a little bit, but not a lot of shame. Like, yeah, this is just something that I still struggle with. um But I wasn't in a terrible place about it. And then you said, after I communicated that.
00:08:03
Speaker
Then I started saying some of the things in my head, mainly one. And I just said, well, the problem is you don't ever think anything applies to you.
00:08:15
Speaker
Yes. I'll let everybody pause to have their own reaction to that. Before emailing to say that I'm right. Yes. No. So i okay, I see the difficulty and the unkindness. Well, you don't have to see it yet because you you didn't at the time. I didn't at the time. But now that I have said it out loud yes again. Yes.
00:08:39
Speaker
But at the time, yeah and you said it, and I would say that it was not said meanly, but we both have been guilty of saying something of that nature in a more harsh way. And it it was not, because it was not harsh and we were in a pretty good space, I felt it a little and I did push back. I did have kind defensive response. I said, hey, that's not fair.
00:09:00
Speaker
Lots of stuff has applied to me. And I thought about listing the things like here's things that I've literally gotten treatment for. OK, can we um just decide you didn't do that? No, that would not have been helpful because you would have said, yeah, but you need to put other things on the list and we would have been off to the races. That's the whole point.
00:09:14
Speaker
But what happened was i i would i didn't get super elevated about it and I wasn't in a bad place myself. And i knew I needed get upstairs to get showered. We were headed out to church from there. And then, but I did say at least ah a partially defensive, but not big response. And where'd that leave you when I headed upstairs? so Well, in my head, I thought, I'm He thinks that he says things apply to him, but he doesn't.
00:09:44
Speaker
So am I just going to let it go lonely knowing that he won't take my advice? Am I just going to ignore this? Am I going to push it? And I think I started, i don't know, eating chocolate chips or something for breakfast.
Improving Feedback Perception
00:10:00
Speaker
And so I let it go. Okay. But you did something different. You were not like when I came down, you weren't still in that. No, I had almost forgotten the chocolate chips were really good.
00:10:12
Speaker
And I wasn't completely in it. I wasn't totally ruminating about it. I was trying to listen to music and sort of um I didn't spin it out either. And so what what follows this next you know part of the conversation wasn't really premeditated. It was just literally kind of ah a moment that I decided to try to seize. But I came back down and and one of your poems was out kind of with my stuff.
00:10:34
Speaker
And as I was sitting there, i don't if I was making my tea or what, but I was reading your poem again. And it's one that ah you were saying, I don't know if you've seen that one before. And it turns out're one Yeah. But I really liked it. And I was reading it and I was going through it. And I gave you, I told you how much I liked it. You did. and point You were very kind. Here's what I like about this. Here's what's.
00:10:54
Speaker
really capturing And we talked through that. So I think you felt seen and heard by that. And I wasn't doing that for any ulterior motive or anything. I was just, man, this good. it didn't feel that way. No, it wasn't. But what came to me as i as we were ending up on the conversation, I said, hey, let me ask you a question. I said, i actually don't have any feedback for you on this poem. I really don't.
00:11:13
Speaker
But I want to offer you, if I did, If I offered you some feedback and you didn't really appreciate it or didn't really land with you, let me give you two options of of how I would say my next sentence. And I want to see, i just want to know which one of these do you prefer?
00:11:28
Speaker
And so option A, I said, is i I would say sometimes it feels to me like you aren't really receptive to my feedback, particularly if it's critical or could be described as negative. So that's option A. Option B is what if I said you never really listened my feedback anyway?
00:11:44
Speaker
And i said, which of those would you prefer? which Oh, and I knew hands down a Yes. and But I did think as soon as you said it, oh, he actually does have criticism.
00:11:55
Speaker
Ah, so you were still fearful that I did. i was like, uh-oh, did I just fall into a trap? But it was clear between choice A and choice B, ah felt loved by choice a and I felt harsh judgmentalism by choice B. Yes. And just the difference in wording, again, you never listen to my feedback versus sometimes it feels like you're not receptive.
00:12:20
Speaker
particularly it's critical, right? And so you answered that kind of within seconds and you knew you liked a and you did not like B. i said And then I said, truthfully, I don't have any feedback. i'm not This is not a step for feedback. I'm just curious about that. Let me add that my body actually felt braced when you said choice B. You never listened to my feedback.
00:12:42
Speaker
And other than my suspicion with choice A, actually felt really at rest when you said, sometimes it feels to me like you're really not receptive to my feedback, especially if it sounds negative.
00:12:54
Speaker
Yeah. Like i felt restful and then suspicious. But the second when my body tensed. Yeah, I could feel it So that's fascinating, too, because this is this is an experiment. This is like, hey, I'm not really asking you a question, but pretend
Speaker vs. Listener Perspectives
00:13:09
Speaker
I am. And your body still has a reaction. Doesn't that tell us something? Our bodies, they are here listening. And particularly if we have trauma in our backgrounds and all, they are reading the cues.
00:13:21
Speaker
Well, it makes me think of Dan Siegel, who's written a number of parenting books, one of which is called Parenting from the Inside Out. He, when he's teaching, will do this experiment where he will just ask people to stay in their chair and he will several times say the word No.
00:13:42
Speaker
No. Okay. And then he'll pause and then he'll do the same thing with yes, with a different tone. And he will ask people to describe the difference in the feeling. Oh, wow. And when i hear him he's yelling, no, he's doing it generically into a group in a room. Okay.
00:13:59
Speaker
I know it has nothing to do with me, but my chest tightens up. Oh, wow. I can feel the the judgment, the curtness, the demand. I think the demand oh yeah would maybe be the best description for what I feel. And you're literally an observer. You're not in it. Like he's not, he's literally not telling you no. No, he's just yelling it into the room.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah. I am waking up to you that I have more sensitivity to you than I used to realize. I just have gotten really good at sort of tuning it out and trying to soldier on. But but the more I let myself sort of,
00:14:34
Speaker
admit I have a body and settle into it. I'm like, huh, I'm having a response to that. I'm feeling this way. Happened to be in a mediation I handled last week where took me a while to realize I'm bothered by the way both these lawyers are handling this particular situation. I'm the mediator and they're not ready to be here and they don't even really want to be here and they don't appreciate me.
00:14:53
Speaker
And my body is sort it's sort of coming out and I'm talking to them, but I kind of needed to also. I'm like, y'all don't really seem to need me or want me. So go about your business. Yeah. So then to continue the conversation from this morning, though, so I said, we talked about a couple of things. I said, I want to, okay, i want to give you one more a and B option.
00:15:09
Speaker
I want to give you one more just thought experiment. I said, this time you're bringing some feedback to me and I'm not really hearing it to start with, or it's not landing how you want it to with me.
00:15:19
Speaker
And here's option A and option B. Tell me which of these you would prefer hearing. A is sometimes I feel like you are resistant to some something I bring you being relevant for you.
00:15:31
Speaker
And option B is, you don't ever think anything applies to you. Now, how did you respond to those two options? Well, that was interesting because my first thought was to hear these statements through the lens of being the speaker because I had said option B to you right very recently.
00:15:54
Speaker
right And so it felt less harsh to me from the vantage point of speaker. And it felt like I'm just saying what's true.
00:16:05
Speaker
Do I need to sugarcoat it? Yeah, you actually use that word. You said I'm just being honest. and then Right. And then as I sat with it and I realized, and this is pretty quick, what would it be like to be on the receiving end?
00:16:20
Speaker
Yes. Of these two comments. Yes. And i realized, oh, they land very differently than they leave the mouth. Yes. They land on the ears in a different way.
00:16:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I thought was just super powerful. In fact, I was surprised. I thought at first, and what I kind of wanted to happen was for you to go, oh, obviously, A, and then kind of realize, oh, crap, I said didn't But you instead, because you were still thinking of, you were thinking of, because these were This was the roles were reversed.
00:16:53
Speaker
and So because you're the speaker, um you're saying this, those didn't feel different to you. And I think that's super instructive because when you're the one who wants to say to the other person, I have a concern with how you respond when I come to you, when we have the concern, you could say what's true is maybe you believe, you know, you don't ever think anything applies to you.
00:17:17
Speaker
But both of those are are sort of true. but you So either one feels equal to say. Right. And as I'm sitting here, I'm you know having faces of clients flash through my mind of when a husband, a wife, a parent says something that is, quote, true.
00:17:39
Speaker
And they do not understand why the other person is not listening, is arguing, shuts down.
Personal Issues Affecting Feedback
00:17:49
Speaker
And I think there's something very true about the fact that it depends on the vantage point from which you're considering this.
00:17:57
Speaker
Are you considering the content through the speaker who is trying to get a message across or as the listener who is receiving maybe something that's in general difficult to hear?
00:18:09
Speaker
Yeah, I'll give an example, a quick one from, there's a couple I've been working with doing a therapeutic separation. And this is where they are separated. They are not sure they want the marriage to end. Neither of them wants it to end, but they know they can't continue in the patterns and dynamics they've had. And they've been married 30 years at least.
00:18:28
Speaker
And the husband is dealing with some really hard stuff. The wife is sort of naming it and they're both sort of doing these kind of healing journeys. And they they initially separated and she went to go stay with some family and that didn't go well for her. It didn't work well it didn't feel as restful and she had decided to come back to the house, but still wanting to separate.
00:18:48
Speaker
And one of the reasons, and I'm watching them have this conversation, one of the reasons he gave what she gave, she said, that didn't work partly because my family is talking trash about you.
00:18:59
Speaker
is they're They are so trying to be on my side. They're saying all these terrible things about you. And I'm like, that's not what I want. That's not helpful. I still remember what's good about you and I haven't given up, but they are in this this reactive place.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so I turned to the husband and said, how is that? how What are you hearing? And he goes, it just makes me feel shitty all over again for how terrible I've been to her.
00:19:25
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh, wow. What a shame infused way. to hear He couldn't hear that she was actually standing against people who were shaming him and crapping on him.
00:19:38
Speaker
She was actually, no, you're not what I need now. I thought, yeah this is a great thing. And it missed. It missed with him because he's dealing with his own shame. But I was able to kind of talk about it and hey, dummy, she said this. you know I'm like...
00:19:51
Speaker
Can you, is there a part of it you can honor? Can you hear that she is resistant to people who are wanting to shame you and put you and say, you're not worth sticking And that's the opposite of joining with your shame of you're so bad and you're terrible. She's actually saying, no, I'm holding on your dignity. And just gently pointing that out. And he was just, he was floored and in the best way. Like it still was gonna hard for him to believe it, but like, but what a picture of what we're feeling, where we are and what we're receiving.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yes. Is going to impact how we hear.
Unrealistic Expectations in Marriage
00:20:25
Speaker
And so ah the other part we we talked about, of course, as especially when Wendy he was first saying those don't seem that different to me because you did kind of stick with that for a little bit. those A and B. I mean, for a few sentences today. I've stuck with them for days before. but Yes. Yeah. Well, in one of the ways we talked, so I said, look, we do this in counseling and story work.
00:20:46
Speaker
As the counselor therapist, and really happens probably with you guys out there too, with your friends, you may see a dozen things or 10 things or two or three that would be good that somebody else needs to know that will help them in their life.
00:20:58
Speaker
But as a counselor, at least you're not going to bring all that at once. We hold complexity a lot and don't say everything we see just because it's true. And just because we think it would be helpful.
00:21:09
Speaker
It might be, but the timing and the level of trust and security matters. So that led to a conversation then when I was asking is, why is it so much harder for us in our individual relationship? What do you think makes it more difficult for us to get into that mindset of let me hold and not give everything now?
00:21:28
Speaker
and And that led to good conversation. what What did we come up with? Well, the first thing I thought was, um and I phrased it a little differently then, but in essence, I prefer to not believe that I'm married to a human.
00:21:42
Speaker
ah Meaning, i would like you to be mature without fail. So sometimes I picture like I could have like a little remote control.
00:21:53
Speaker
And maybe you like look like a man, feel like a man when I touch you But like I can press a little button that says kinder, more generous, mature, not grumpy, not reactive.
00:22:11
Speaker
So part of it is an expectation of you'll be mature all the time. As would i I. expect the same of myself. But surely chris will hear this right, get this right, change, almost as if I shouldn't have to suffer your immaturity.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yes. And you mine. Right. And i I, as you were saying, I'm like, oh, I do that too. I'm doing the same thing of I I want you to be in a perfectly regulated and appropriately attuned to me, caring about me place all the time. And because you are a human, doesn't matter how much counseling training you or i anybody gets, you're still a human. You're affected by things. things If something punches you in the gut, you you're not going to have access to the kinder part of yourself. right We often think back to when we first got our dog, Mick. Remember, um this was...
00:23:13
Speaker
crazy for us to learn, but we got a dog right after we got married. We love this dog. We saw him through the ER, all this stuff. And we bonded with this dog. Great. And one day he went out, we lived by a busy road. He went out, ran, was running away, got hit by a car.
00:23:26
Speaker
And i was the one who found him. I went over to try to help him. And I thought, well, oh gosh, he just got hit by a big hunk of ugly metal. He's going to be so glad his master, the guy that loves him, was coming over to give him care and get him out of road and all.
00:23:41
Speaker
Well, how did he respond to me? Do you remember? He probably bit you. I can't remember. that Oh, he chomped me. He chomped good because the whole system is out of whack. He just got smacked by a big thing. He was in major fight mode. He wasn't respecting, oh oh I know this person and they're good. He didn't yeah wouldn't even be able to get there. and Dang it, I wish we were different from that. I wish we didn't have that primitive part of ourselves that does get to a place of, I can't see a daggum good thing coming from you right now.
00:24:08
Speaker
But sometimes we do. And so that was one of the things that that expectation and tempering that, like as much as you may love this person and as as much healing. This is, I think, another place that we're tempted is God, aren't we more healed in this? Aren't you more healed in this? Can you not please be more healed in this? We start getting into that and we're losing, what we're stepping away from is the benefit of doing story work and trying to do it alongside each other and with help is, oh my gosh, of course you're off kilter now.
00:24:40
Speaker
Well, that would be compassion instead of condescension, yeah which I think the first way you described it, we would be condescending. Are you not further along? Yes.
00:24:52
Speaker
yeah Right. I guess I misread you. Yeah.
Balancing Hurt and Communication
00:24:55
Speaker
Yeah. And so there's also, we talked about there a couple other reasons it's hard between us. um like You want to be respected, right? You want it to be when you speak,
00:25:06
Speaker
I go, oh my gosh, thank you for dropping another pearl of wisdom. Yes. I am so moved by your kindness and your wisdom towards me. How did I get so lucky to marry you? That's right.
00:25:18
Speaker
Which is not not a terrible longing, um a desire, but not great to have as ah you know a driver. And I think the last thing we came up with too was... even though this was not an example of you weren't super hurt and you weren't, this was not something you were, this does not destroy you for a long time. If I'm groggy in the morning and it's hard. This is not one of, there are other bigger issues that we have that cause you more hurt and pain.
00:25:45
Speaker
yes Is that fair? yeah i think that's fair. yes So you weren't as deeply hurt, but there was some hurt in there. And when we're speaking out of hurt, even to a small degree,
00:25:56
Speaker
we are less attuned to or sensitive to how is this going to land? yeah How is the other person going to hear this? um And that's, I think, one of the challenges to even here to recognize it wasn't a big hurt and we weren't in a really bad place.
00:26:13
Speaker
But even that small amount, if it's more your hurt, that's what's on your mind, then you're not thinking about, i wonder if this will be received well. I wonder if he will, you know, feel more loved by this or not.
00:26:26
Speaker
The higher the hurt gets, I would say, um like if you had like a meter of one to 10, the higher the hurt is, the less you give a shit, excuse me my language, but the less me or or you or anybody cares what the other person might think.
00:26:40
Speaker
Like in in example, again, you're trying to get out ah of a burning building, you're gonna shove some people around and yell at them. And that's actually might be love. Hey, you don't see the beam that's about to fall in your head. I'm gonna tackle you and move you out of the way.
00:26:54
Speaker
I don't care that this is gonna hurt because I'm saving you from bigger hurt. I'm saving us or whatever. And so just even that becoming, we've been on a journey, I'm still on a journey, I think of becoming more aware when am I starting to feel threatened? And the tricky part here is the threats aren't physical and obvious, and they're not the same for each of us.
00:27:13
Speaker
So being able to have some patience and curiosity and kindness of, oh, the other person's reacting. And it might be something i said, it might not be, but how do I get back? I'd like to be able to think about their perspective also and not just, you need to hear this.
00:27:30
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yep. And I think what we came to is, you know, we heard a long time ago, you can be right or you can aim to love. And we were talking about this morning, you can be committed to being right,
00:27:45
Speaker
or you can commit to having a healthy relationship, healthy marriage. Because that's going to mean that we hold what we see and say loosely, and we really contend with what we hear. It's not that we get to disregard it if it isn't said well. Yeah, that's right. And not as if we don't get to speak when something is hurtful.
00:28:09
Speaker
But we want to hold compassion and humility and love above all. Well, that identifies something else that we run into that I would add to the list of what makes it tough.
00:28:20
Speaker
I think each of us at times in when we are in more of a herder activated place, there is that fear. Oh, you're making me say this a certain way.
00:28:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I know how that goes. You just basically don't want to hear. You're just shutting me down. And it starts to feel like that. Yes. Like a trap. Yes. Like we're being trapped with the heart. Yes. And so like you can't say, well, no, it is important how you say it, but I'm not using that as a means of silencing you or saying you can't speak at all, or you can speak, but only when you jump through my magic hoops.
00:28:55
Speaker
I think that's ah an area we're trying to learn how to navigate better. Yes. Of how can I be sensitive to that this is going to sound like I don't want to hear you at all, but Which is also not loving.
Motives Behind Giving Feedback
00:29:08
Speaker
Right, exactly. And it's not loving. And so we i was sort of, as I was kind of trying to summarize how I would, a rubric that I feel like um I now know is a thing, which is progress after i don't know how many years of counseling, it's at least decade and a half probably, but In any conversation where we got to bring something hard, we want to say, hey, look, I feel like you're struggling.
00:29:32
Speaker
I feel like things aren't going well. And I want something to be different. Do a little test, kind of check in on your on our own heart. And you have to do this score individually. And how much am I bringing this to you out of my hurt? And I want relief from my hurt.
00:29:48
Speaker
And that is what's driving me. And what percentage is for your good? I think you are hurting or you're causing harm. you don't even know. I want better for you.
00:29:59
Speaker
And it's not a binary on off one or the other. I think we're almost always some percentage mix of those. Oh, yeah. And so it's it's it's paying attention to and even maybe asking each other, hey, what percentage are we here? Because it feels like a lot of a lot of.
00:30:15
Speaker
energy and harshness coming at me and I don't feel very cared for by it. Can you hear that? And can, but I want to hear, yeah I bet you have something good for me because you have before, but can we adjust that mix a little bit? Cause it feels, I'm feeling like I'm going to eaten or squashed or not listened to.
00:30:31
Speaker
And that's making it harder for me to listen to what you're bringing, but I want what you're bringing. in Yep.
Recommendation and Conclusion
00:30:36
Speaker
So I'm gonna put in a plug real quick. yeah we're watching We just finished watching a TV show and I just was realizing, it's not on our show notes, I'm going off script, but Jenny and Georgia, oh yeah the fourth season we just watched. Binged it in week. No, third, excuse me, third season. yeah It's really good. It's a lot of tough, difficult content, but They are playing with this dynamic on there very much. They have so many characters who are in hard places, needing to confront somebody they care about a lot and having no idea how to do it or doing it horribly.
00:31:07
Speaker
But you see each of the characters wrestling with, yes how do we do this? yes There's a teenage girl who has a lot of emotions towards both of her parents who are estranged. There's teenagers and adults, all of whom are trying to communicate disappointment, hurt, sadness, frustration, and a lot times they do a terrible job of it.
00:31:28
Speaker
But there are some moments where they do a really good job. There's some beautiful connection. yeah Some of the mother-daughter stuff. um Don't go there looking for validation of you know your Christian values and morals and things like that.
00:31:39
Speaker
There's a lot of murder and mayhem. Yes. But there is a really good wrestling with what does it mean to love, to be loyal, to work for the good of, yeah.
00:31:52
Speaker
The moral complexity yeah that they are able to weave is pretty phenomenal. um So anyway, just a plug for something. If you're looking, sometimes people are looking for a new show to binge.
00:32:02
Speaker
It's got some just intriguing aspects. The family dynamics there, the story element is really well done because they do a lot of Kind of like this is us pioneered doing flashbacks and stuff. So yeah anyway, we hope this is at least somewhat interesting and helpful for you guys. And we look forward to being back with more episodes. And hopefully the people are not listening after 6 p.m. or before 6 a.m. if they struggle with that like us.
00:32:25
Speaker
But we do hope that this might make you think and think about the ways that you communicate with those you love. So happy weekend. Happy weekend.