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The Complexity of the Self (or selves) and the Perplexity of God...
68 Plays12 days ago
Here's a fun thought experiment: Imagine you are in line at a coffee shop or helping with a newcomer's lunch at church, and you spot a person who seems really, really familiar. Once you look past the questionable fashion choices and the "what exactly were they thinking?" haircut, you realize that this person you are meeting is in fact a younger version of yourself, from 20 or so years ago.
After the initial shock wears off, and you recognize your younger self, what would you do? Would you introduce yourself fully to yourself? Or would you exercise restraint so as not to freak them out? If you were to sit down for a chat, what do you imagine that conversation would be like? What would you want to say? And how do you think the younger you would receive your thoughts?
That's where we start with this one, good people. But there's oh so much more.
What do we make of the suggestion that our bodies "keep the score" of the difficult circumstances, lesser "small-t" traumas, and downright harm that we have experienced throughout life? If that notion is true, or at least a potentially helpful therapeutic concept, what do we do if we realize that "the score" sometimes was decidedly not in our favor? What does healing look like, when the harm was experienced so long ago, and yet its aftereffects linger with us (sometimes in very problematic ways)?
What if we can't remember the details of what happened, and we aren't even sure it should be a big deal? Or what if we can describe some events thoroughly, but only from a place of sheer emotional detachment, because "the past is in the past, and what can you do?"
And what does any of this mean for our relationship with God? If we have befallen harm in our families of origin-- and most of us have, to at least some degree-- how do we reconcile that reality with our view of God? Where was He in those darkest moments? And if He is "the same yesterday and today and forever," and he has the power to overcome evil with good, why didn't He do it then?
Spoiler alert: we don't offer answers to these questions. We can't.
We can, however, offer a safe place to wrestle with them, honestly. And not just with our minds, but with every fiber of our bodies and hearts. As well as a picture of a God who we can dare to hope is with us and for us, even in the midst of our confusion, doubt, and pain.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Surviving Saturday'
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about finding hope in the midst of life's disappointments.
The Powerlessness Between Crucifixion and Resurrection
00:00:18
Speaker
We resonate with the powerlessness that Jesus' first followers experienced as they waited between His crucifixion on Friday and His rising on Sunday morning.
00:00:27
Speaker
We feel led to bring light and goodness into a world that aches and wonders when relief will come. Here you'll find no easy answers, just honest conversations about actual pain through the lens of a suffering God.
Meet the Counselors: Wendy and Chris
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, licensed counselor based in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband, Chris, a counseling intern and family law mediator. Join us as we wait together for more.
The Impact of Charlotte's Historic Snowfall
00:01:01
Speaker
Welcome back and happy winter. hi Chris. Hey, folks. are y'all? Wendy, how are you? Good. This is our first Sunday without ice or snow.
00:01:12
Speaker
in three weeks. That is strange to say. i mean, that makes it sound like we're in the Midwest or somewhere, but this is well Charlotte and we had yeah two weekends of... I do pride myself on being one of the only believers that the snow would come and I was vindicated it came. All they have to do is put the little snowflake like on the weather prediction Yeah. And you are already planning, celebrating.
00:01:40
Speaker
It's like a bone in front of a dog. I just keep watching and watching. Yep. You are bought in. And then if it goes away, oh my gosh, that front went somewhere else or whatever. You're sort of already bought in, right? Yeah. feel like they took our snow away.
00:01:56
Speaker
the weather people and I'm the opposite I'm like I will believe it when I see the flakes and maybe the flakes will fall but will they accumulate I'll see it well we got what I understand is the largest snowfall had in Charlotte in 20 plus years we remember the one from 04 yeah that was they were saying was that the the previous one because we talked about it I think another time but we were able to make huge igloos and our kids were making snowmen forks and all I just find snow falling to be magical
00:02:27
Speaker
There's just something about it. I don't even really want to understand how it works because it just is like magic falling from the sky. See, the way my brain works is I want to somehow find a way to test it. You know, they always tell us no two snowflakes are alike. I'm like, there's no way in the world you could possibly know that because you can't get a snowflake from like here.
00:02:47
Speaker
and one falling in, say, Tibet at the same time, yeah you could never possibly compare. so I do wonder about the the hard science on that claim. But you like to believe it. I'm sure there's something scientific behind it.
00:02:59
Speaker
And certainly none of them may be here. But that just fascinates me. I'm not going to you know go on a quest to try to prove I found an identical sniffling. But it just that's that's where my brain goes. i like the different consistencies and yeah past of snow like I could tell with the second and second snow that we had, it was less ice and sleety type stuff. But the second one was packable snow. Gorgeous snow. People were more sledding. Yep.
00:03:25
Speaker
It was beautiful. Of course, this is all passe for our friends in the Northeast. We live with it all the time. We hate stuff. Yep. But it it was a beautiful experience.
Writing Exercise: Meeting Our Younger Selves
00:03:37
Speaker
Yes. um so the weekend of the ice, um shortly before it started, i met with a few friends for a writing workshop.
00:03:48
Speaker
And one of the things we were talking about is the idea of if we ran into ourselves at a younger age. Ooh.
00:04:01
Speaker
Oh, wow. Isn't that fascinating? That is a very fascinating concept. I've found myself saying many times in recent years, and particularly in some educational context, like ah ah in my practice of law, if I ran into my 30-year-old self, I don't know how well we'd get along. I think that guy would think I'm a little bit loopy. I look more like the people at that age that I thought were kind of bizarre. I didn't know how to understand them who would who would have their in-law firm and grither hair long and you know, yeah you know, all, all, all those things. And I'm, I'm now it's kind of, think I think I'll be an interesting encounter, but what was it like for you? did you go with that?
00:04:37
Speaker
Well, thank goodness we grow and we change. And you know, the, the conversation and the writing prompt was very open-ended. So you could pick the age at which you were encountered as a younger self. Okay.
00:04:53
Speaker
You could also decide if you ran into each other somewhere. One friend met her post-college self at a local bakery. They ran into each other at the cake display. Sweet. ah See what I did there.
00:05:10
Speaker
Ah, that was a good one. So I decided to encounter myself in mid-20s. Okay. Okay. And I made it a coffee date.
00:05:22
Speaker
And so um i'm going to read what I wrote as I was thinking about it. So this would have been, to place it in history, we would have been married and living in Charlotte, but no children yet.
00:05:35
Speaker
Okay. And, you know, as I was doing the exercise, I was thinking, what I said a minute ago, thank God he allows us to grow and move and change.
00:05:48
Speaker
that he is always on the move, maturing and strengthening his people. Okay. So this is from the perspective of me now looking back at my, we're going to say 25 year old self. And you call it a poem. I mean, it looks like a poem the way you've written it. It is. like it. It is. I write it as a poem.
00:06:10
Speaker
Apparently this was an internet trend that went around a few years ago. um i met my younger self for coffee. Okay. I saw her and invited her to coffee, somewhere we could get her favorite, hot cocoa with a ridiculous amount of whipped cream and a single peppermint stick.
00:06:31
Speaker
I had watched her at church, trying so hard to be all they needed. She smiled, but I sensed there was more. I could almost feel the humidity of hidden tears in the air.
00:06:44
Speaker
The happy face seemed more for them than a genuine reflection of her insides. She so wanted to belong. I could see it in the way her eyes followed the ones they wanted and in the way she avoided her own reflection.
00:07:00
Speaker
I could almost hear her cry, if I could just be them, i'd be okay. If I can just recreate a family with God in the middle, I'll finally feel peace.
00:07:14
Speaker
She seems surprised when I approach her with the proposition of a date. That's because she is always the one asking. She frets over what to wear.
00:07:25
Speaker
i can't wait to tell her she's beautiful all the time. We sit down in a corner booth, privacy with a side of sunshine on our faces. She smiles to please.
00:07:38
Speaker
I speak to interject honesty. Life is hard. I can't go deeper or say much more or she won't know what to do. There's no one to catch her from a fall like that and she doesn't yet know how to stitch her pieces back together.
00:07:56
Speaker
I have the same questions she does but my answers have changed mainly because they are mine to give not notes born from others expectations.
00:08:07
Speaker
They are unto freedom and a gritty hope. One day she'll have those things too Dang. If your mic weren't like attached to an arm attached to my desk, I'd say just drop it right now.
00:08:20
Speaker
I mean, that iss my that is the line that catches me every time is there's no one to catch her from a fall like that. I can't go deeper say much more than wanted to do.
00:08:30
Speaker
There's no one to catch her from a fall like that, and she doesn't yet know how to stitch her pieces back together. Wow. Well, what I was thinking when that line came was...
00:08:43
Speaker
I thought I was really mature at this age. Yes. And I knew you at that age and I would have said, oh my gosh, you're mature. And I think other people in your life would have said, gosh. was going to say, think there were other people who were ignorant enough to think I was also mature. You're talking your time about the time frame when like we're 27, 28 and we're you know asked to, hey, lead this community group. Oh yeah. Be in charge of people. Mentor this couple. Things that, how in the world were we supposed to know how to do?
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah. um And so that line, I can't go deeper or say much more than just telling her life is hard or she won't know what to do. i at that age, my faith was still fairly simplistic. I wanted it to be very black and white, filled with lots of certainty. Yes. And so to grapple with life being harder than i had strategies to engage...
00:09:41
Speaker
was way too scary. And see, it's funny. um in I haven't done the assignment yet, but in thinking about it, my first instinct was, oh my gosh, I would tell that guy, you know my 25-year-old self, your husband at the time, I'm telling all this stuff to watch out for and to not get right. And the thing I recognized in a crushing way was he wouldn't have listened if he could understand half of what i was saying i don't think he would have taken it in and paid attention and said oh well thank you for those helpful correctives, I will now change. He wouldn't have. He was like pretty certain that he had it figured out pretty much. yeah and And he was on the right path. And so I could, you know, so i I'm going to do this experiment at some point in time, but I'm like, it it can't be this. I gave him all the wisdom it and, you know, help them navigate and and avoid all the pitfalls that were coming.
00:10:32
Speaker
I couldn't. and And I don't think he would have been, whatever, old man, you you know nothing. Well, right, because don't you think we have to live life to learn how to live life faithfully? That is a truism, and it's one of those things that that sounds obvious, but... but you really don't i think know that until you experience it I think that's probably accurate.
00:10:54
Speaker
um Yeah. So that that kind of got us thinking a little bit, didn't it, about sort of the idea of just recognizing this concept of you know younger versions of ourself, which is is probably a more, you know. common way that people talk or or recognize that that you know just even be able to I guess partly it's it's ah we can blame the Marvel ah franchise I know you're not as big a fan but they posited the idea of the multiverse yeah this is not the only universe there are others and everyone breaks off at a different thread and all that stuff and it's a fascinating thought experiment I mean there's no way to ever prove it obviously but Marvel's done some great stuff with especially the Loki series and kind of messing with that idea but but the idea that there are young
00:11:41
Speaker
that we sort of experience.
Biblical Reflections and Personal Safety
00:11:43
Speaker
um I was kind of thinking about that today ah when we were at a church service and our pastor was talking about um ah the story of Joseph and and and kind of just pointing out, ah drawing some from the ah Wisdom at the Bama podcast saying that look the repeated thought throughout this whole ah passage of of Joseph's early like life ah post being solved by his brothers but before he rises to Pharaoh um and the Lord was with Joseph
00:12:17
Speaker
and and And that line is repeated so many times and it's repeated at the low points. It's repeated at the at the worst places, almost as a reminder. And that is sort of echoed throughout it.
00:12:29
Speaker
um And that was powerful for me. It took me to an interesting place because I was thinking about, um and we were singing songs that sort of went with that. And I was thinking about Where did I decide to flee my body? Where did I decide that I didn' i was not home in my body? I did not want to acknowledge I had a body.
00:12:53
Speaker
like um Meaning I wanted to live in my head. i wanted to I was always reading a book. I was always doing a puzzle, solving a mystery, watching a show.
00:13:04
Speaker
um And the idea of tending to my body came very late. and still was a struggle i think ah when other guys were like lift weight just good on i'm like why no you partly because i wasn't good at him but partly i just didn't get it and And what came to me is i was remembering being in my house where there was a lot of conflict and all. And i can imagine as I was envisioning an eight-year-old, a nine-year-old, hearing what I heard in my house, hearing the conflict and the lack of safety and the harm and and being sort of a combatant in it.
00:13:37
Speaker
um Of course, I wouldn't have wanted to be present in that body for very long. I was not wanting... Wanting isn't even the right word. I did not want to feel the things that I had no choice but to experience. Yeah. And so it it kind of makes sense that I would sort of, you know, like i mentioned, if you tune your radio to a station and they're just blasting static and noise, you know, you're going to turn that, you're going to turn the dial somewhere else or turn the volume down or something. Yeah. And so that's sort of what the environment my house was like.
00:14:09
Speaker
and And I just was overcome with compassion for that little guy. Yeah. And like, of course, I have a tortured relationship with my body because my body was how I was experiencing and sensing, you know, chaos and cruelty where there was supposed to be care.
00:14:26
Speaker
Yeah. And so I felt compassion and I felt this kindness and I felt this, and the Lord was with me. I didn't profess faith until a little bit later after that, but just, i was just, I felt just worshiping that I survived that, that I didn't go a darker path. I went and a darker path. I didn't get lost. I didn't disappear. They were, you know God's kindness is also there, even as I am more in touch with the sadness. Does that make sense? It does. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, depending on the theology of our households at young ages, we begin to see those events differently.
00:15:14
Speaker
yeah And so sometimes, you know, the the faith we teach our children is, hey, Jesus came, he died, he took all the bad things.
00:15:26
Speaker
Thankfully, we can be his if we trust him. And one day there's heaven. But what's missing is what do we do with all the quote bad things that still come?
00:15:37
Speaker
Yeah. The parents fighting, a divorce, an illness of a sibling, you know, a broken friendship, whatever it is, what do we do with the things that the developmental level of our faith at the time can't handle?
00:15:57
Speaker
And in our 20s, I would say you and i um certainly, while we might could describe at a 30,000 foot level Some of like we knew, i you know, my parents were divorced and it was hard, but we could describe it.
00:16:11
Speaker
um But we also found comfort in, but we have a you know, we're with God now. We trust God now. And, you know, we have sort of a theology that takes us so far.
00:16:22
Speaker
um It was a ah while before, you know, some of the things you mentioned, suffering, losing, you know, very close loved ones, my mother, and my sister to cancer, your father to cancer.
00:16:34
Speaker
different aspects of that sort of upended. like Like suffering, particularly for our kids, became not theoretical really early. Right. And so one of the things I'm thinking is child development right now. And I'm thinking like also the development of faith.
Peter Enns' Four Stages of Faith Development
00:16:56
Speaker
And so I'm thinking, you know, children up until 11, they're still thinking very concretely. I mean, the first couple of years of life, their thinking is based on what can come in through their literal senses. What can I mouth?
00:17:13
Speaker
What can I touch? What do I hear? Okay. Or they explore by putting stuff in their mouth. Yeah, exactly. Okay, what does this taste like? What does it feel like? That's a sensory... Yeah, so much more than a full-time job in those...
00:17:26
Speaker
moments. um But it's not until a child is 12 or older that they develop the ability to think abstractly, to entertain hypothetical situations, or consider there could be multiple viewpoints.
00:17:46
Speaker
Okay, so I'm thinking like you're listening to your parents fight, okay, and you're eight, nine, and ten, okay, your thinking in this regard is going to be much more concrete.
00:18:01
Speaker
yeah okay You don't have the nuances of, well, wait a minute, I bet dad didn't really mean that comment. And mom is overreacting because sometimes her depression makes her think this, right? We can't do that. Yeah. Those are not eight-year-old thoughts right there at all. It's more who's good, who's bad, yes which meant I think I felt very much compelled to take a side.
00:18:23
Speaker
ahhu And in my family at the time, it was not even a contest. It was dad's the monster. Dad's dangerous. Mom is smaller, frail.
00:18:34
Speaker
um She is in harm's way. I got to stand with her. right And I say that now and I'm like, okay, picturing myself as an eight-year-old nine-year-old, I must defend my mother.
00:18:47
Speaker
It's up to me. And I just want to I want to scream. on I'm like, oh my gosh. I mean, no, no hate girl is supposed to have to do that. Well, and think about the innocence. You actually thought you could.
00:18:59
Speaker
Well, yes, that's right. um But yeah, you're right. There's a, there becomes a black and a white. There's a good and there's a bad. So then I started thinking about faith development.
00:19:11
Speaker
And, you know, a lot of people have looked at the stages of faith development over years. The person that I'm drawing on right now is Peter Inns, who's a well-known author and theologian.
00:19:26
Speaker
And he traces four basic stages of faith development. Not everybody's going to agree with him, but do think he has some good things to say, especially here.
00:19:38
Speaker
So the first stage he would call simplicity. And that's going to be more that faith like a child. it's god mean That fits with the songs we teach kids at that age. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus loves me. Or even the, what's that bumper sticker? The Bible says it, I believe it. And that settles it.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. it's very. That now makes me laugh. I'm like, says what exactly? Right. so It settles what? What we continue? Right. That's the stage in which maybe we've just come to faith, but everything seems very clear, yeah very simple. So even in your context, yeah,
00:20:13
Speaker
God, if you had been asked, was probably on your mom's side and the devil was in control of your dad. Like, i don't know if you're thinking of those categories, but there was a good and there was a bad. At some point. Yeah. Yeah. There was white hat and there was a black.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Okay. So then Pete ends would say the next stage would be complexity. So wait a minute, things are little more confusing. Wait a minute.
00:20:36
Speaker
Both of my parents are actually saying mean things, ah you know, and I'm putting this in the context context of your family. right It has more to do with faith, but I think they overlap. yeah The next stage would be perplexity of, wait, this doesn't make sense.
00:20:52
Speaker
And I think that's where we ask the question like, but why did my parents have to divorce? Why did my sister have to get cancer? This doesn't make sense to me. Right. And I would say in the complexity stage was, well, wait, the good, the person who was supposedly, you know good, the the white hat, you know, did harm in other ways.
00:21:12
Speaker
Okay. And then, yeah and then what, what, what, what does the the person with the bad, with the black hat, the bad guy? but What's their relationship to goodness though? or is there Are there things about them that might be good too? What do I do with that? Right. And I think at first glance, it can feel as if a person at this stage has gone backwards.
00:21:33
Speaker
Yeah. They're not willing to cling to the certainty of, oh, but it's this and not that. So they're more in a place of, you know, this is super confusing. Yeah.
00:21:45
Speaker
um And then the person, the final stage, as Pete Enns would put it, is the state of harmony. Now, can you say first more, how would you distinguish between complexity and perplexity? I love that those are two different words, but what's your on it? Well, think complexity is we are saying this is really complicated. It's not a single issue question. Right.
00:22:09
Speaker
um There's all these layers to it. And then perplexity is a little added on and I don't know how to reconcile. These don't really make sense. Yeah, like like in complexity, I'm probably, so ah the person or me in this case is still looking for answers, trying to make sense of it.
00:22:26
Speaker
Perplexity is getting to the point of going, I can't make sense of this. right This is beyond my comprehension, but there are these multiple things that are true and they are colliding with one another and i i don't think I'm going to be able to reconcile them and I'm i'm i'm acutely aware of that.
00:22:45
Speaker
Right. Like to say to the young father who's been diagnosed with cancer that God works all things together for the good of those who love him is lost on him.
00:22:58
Speaker
That does not bring him closer to the care of Jesus. He is living as is his family an incredibly perplexing situation, which to me does not make sense. And you can add that add to that list, I mean, a a relationship ending or somebody having had an affair or um all kinds of things that are basically, wait a minute, I thought um was following God.
00:23:26
Speaker
I was growing kids God's way. I was ah dating my spouse, you know, and having a date, my subscript whatever, the formulas, the ways that we've we've operated
00:23:38
Speaker
That's where I'm meeting. however we've thought or engaged with something before yeah not covering i mean i'm struck by that um in in my counseling internship that's where i'm i'm meeting couples in particular that i'm working with um They've had one couple I've worked with said they never fought for 20 years.
00:23:56
Speaker
And they were like, they always thought that was great. but and and and And there is a greatness in it. There's a goodness in it. But they realized this disruptive event happens. And they realized they've actually not been bringing anything.
00:24:09
Speaker
real hurts ah for twenty years and they all of a sudden kind of get ah triggered by one thing and then they're like wait a minute there's more in here ahhuh i've got hurt that i was feeling on the way but i stayed really far away from it. yeah and And thinking I'm doing a great thing and being selfish. And they were you know Christian and it somewhat our story as well.
00:24:31
Speaker
um And so all of a sudden it's almost like the the scene of you that the scales fall from your eyes or whatever it is. Now they're seeing I see how I got here, but I can't i can't operate the same way anymore.
00:24:45
Speaker
Now so that this thing
Integrating Past Experiences into Current Faith
00:24:47
Speaker
has happened. And to clarify, our story was never that we didn't argue. No, it's the opposite. that's Yes, well, that's what I mentioned to this couple. I'm like, we were the opposite. We were combustible.
00:24:59
Speaker
um Nobody saw it in public, but we experienced deep conflict and And when we started reckoning with that and figuring out where that came from and and what the sources of that were, there was some kind of Rubicon, finally, that got crossed for us, too, of whatever we were doing before, we can't go back to that. Right. that's not working we are goingnna you know blow up and and just do more harm we have to find a new way to engage, a new way to to move forward in the world.
00:25:31
Speaker
And I would say for both of us, a lot of it um was um involved tending to those younger parts of ourselves, realizing, oh my gosh, there's a reason that we react the way we do, that we act the way we do, that is...
00:25:49
Speaker
you know, stuck down in our bones, down in our body, in our ways of being, in our styles of relating. It's not a choice thing always. We are just operating on this is how my body learned to adapt and survive at a much younger place. Does that make any sense? Yes. And I think I wanted to finish the thing about P. Dunn. Yeah, yeah, please. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
00:26:11
Speaker
So this final stage that he will label harmony okay is when we're able to integrate... all of these nuanced possibilities, okay, and to recognize God and his ways are indeed very mysterious, highly loving, but very mysterious, and we are able to be at peace with that fact.
00:26:37
Speaker
Yeah. And so there's a ah loosening of any sense of certainty about certain, you know, what more nuanced things. I remember Bono had a great line in a song one time, while I'm getting over certainty, you know, ah um ah still trusting God is real. God's here. I've seen and experienced him in new different ways, even amidst all this both in helping trouble times but also you know in the ways I experience him today, I'm certain of that and of his love.
00:27:09
Speaker
But as far as how everything is supposed to play out and everything works out on every single issue, I'm a lot more confused yeah than I used to be. These are the things i I know are true about God and about Jesus as as his son and as his representative here.
00:27:23
Speaker
And it is hard to reconcile all of it and figure out, you know, all the implications. And you have to get to kind of go, this is it. but But I know these multiple things are true and they don't all harmonize easily. So I don't have that pat answer of, well, happened for reason, so you're good.
00:27:40
Speaker
Right. So if we go back to looking at ourselves at younger ages, yeah where we were earnest, we loved Jesus, we longed to live faithfully, um but we hadn't, our our faith hadn't been as necessary yet, a mature faith.
00:28:06
Speaker
We were still able to keep things under the wrap of certainty yeah and somewhat,
00:28:16
Speaker
I don't want to say naive, but untested sense of faith. Yes. And it kind of ties in with another aspect of of ah growth and development, doesn't it?
00:28:30
Speaker
Where, and this is kind of a newer concept for me, but maybe you can speak to it more. But when we experienced these, um these things that were harmful, ah whether it was neglect, abandonment, um discord, whatever, and and and everybody's may not have been extreme as mine. And some people's is way more extreme than mine.
00:28:47
Speaker
But whatever we experienced, if yeah we we had this traumatic experience, this, this um i don't have a caregiver i'm not safe, ah there's nothing but chaos and all that, um those memories, if if we, as as those sensory intake children, looking at things concretely, taking our senses, if we absorbed and were aware of all that information, of the horror of what was happening, particularly those people who were sexually abused, physically abused by parents in some way,
00:29:22
Speaker
You can't take all of that sensation in. You can't ah make sense of that. The the rational you know stuff is not there. The rational parts of the brain aren't there yet. And that sensory overload for that reason, isn't it true? Those from that, those memories are still in there, but they're fragmented.
00:29:37
Speaker
They're not tied together. You might have, some people have a smell memory or a sight memory or a sound memory, but there's nothing that integrates them together. And that's how can that show up kind of in in an adult life?
00:29:49
Speaker
Well, I mean, for starters, I think, you know, um children's psyches will generally disallow them turning against their caregiver.
00:30:01
Speaker
Oh, yeah So, because they're dependent. Yeah. They literally will not survive without a caretaker. Yeah. And so, oftentimes, they will not see the story for the...
00:30:18
Speaker
horrid, tragic thing that it is. Okay. So they, they will minimize it. This is where the concrete thinking, the immature, magical thinking comes into place. Well,
00:30:32
Speaker
But I did have too much sugar and that always makes dad mad. And so he didn't mean to hit me, but he did. Okay. So children begin to make the excuses. And partly there's a loyalty there, yeah but it's a natural instinct. They don't want to. um I sat with ah a woman recently who said basically their family had moved like nine times before they were in seventh grade and they had never gotten a chance to make any friends at all.
00:30:57
Speaker
lot of instability. Mom and dad both had mental issues or drug issues. And as a seventh grader, they finally spoke up and said, i don't know what y'all are going to do, if y'all get but I'm not moving anymore. We're here. They were near some grandparents and they felt safe and they sort of crossed the threshold where they were able to say, I'm not okay with this and there's something I can do about it. Well, yeah, i mean, they're in that stage of abstract thought, and they can entertain. There could be multiple um viewpoints. And they could see there's another pathway to care.
00:31:34
Speaker
But the point of all that is that you know traumatic memories are fragmented. They're kind of caught cast aside, or they're in there in different places in the brain.
00:31:45
Speaker
And if you don't have the Cysbeth Vandercocle, which like, people have read body keeps a score if you don't have a wise caregiver to help you go through these hard sad difficult things um then they stay fragmented.
00:31:57
Speaker
If you have care, and we say that a lot to you know parents that we work with, hey, if you've experienced trauma and difficulty, but you're on it and you're with your kids, they're going to have a chance to be okay. doesn't mean not harmed by it, yeah but you can help them make sense of it and integrate the memory and you are showing care. I another horrible story this week of but somebody witnessing a terrible tragedy in their house and there was no speaking of it afterwards. yeah just No human in this world is going to escape childhood without at least a lowercase t traumatic event. Exactly. Nobody. Yeah. um But no, that doesn't have to have the final word.
Therapy and Revisiting Childhood Memories
00:32:35
Speaker
Exactly. You just need kind care following the event or years later engaging the event. And that's where it comes to what the work we do in the counseling room then and and the the we've had to do an arm healing journey that was really one of the biggest difference makers was revisiting um those scenes of harm, revisiting those places where a younger self experienced cruelty when there should have been care.
00:33:04
Speaker
or aloneness when there should have been comfort and companionship And it's not just being able to, i oh, yes, that happened. Let me tell you that it happened at a at a very abstract level, but rather connecting with that younger self experience. that's I feel like that's what I was doing a little bit this morning. It's it's happened more often a therapy segment this morning. It happened in worship where I was just connected to my younger self and and realizing you know God was there but boy how scared i was boy how alone I felt, boy, how confusing that had to be.
00:33:41
Speaker
And that this was the this was the the whole tone and tenor of my house, second through fifth grade. um I remember some happy and good times at other people's houses.
00:33:53
Speaker
I got almost nothing of that in my own house, but I have these you know conflict things. And just being able to go there and let myself feel that sadness because I've spent a lot of life staving it off autonomically going somewhere else, checking out, whatever. um and And you were saying it was powerful for you also, well i way the the prayer was playing out today. Well, the way the prayer was playing out, yeah. But first i want to say this, like the way that we get from the childhood experience and
00:34:26
Speaker
Look, it it could be as simple as my fifth grade teacher didn't like me and the year was really difficult. yeah okay they They could be more minor stories. sure But the way you get from there to a tried and true tested faith, again, back to the poem, is we get closer to the Jesus of the crucifixion, the Jesus who suffered,
00:34:55
Speaker
then we race to the Jesus of the resurrected body. Because as close as I can get to my suffering is as close as I will truly be willing to get to him in his suffering.
00:35:08
Speaker
And therefore, let that withness impact me. Yeah. should you Keep going. One of the things that our pastor was doing today, and I think this is what you were just referring to that was very powerful, is when he read those passages in the story of Joseph, and he said, and God was with Joseph.
00:35:30
Speaker
He was also talking about the world today and the division that we feel. But where are you saying that? What are you talking about? And so the idea being, we want it to be an us and a them and a God's people and the other people. And he was saying, this is for God.
00:35:51
Speaker
the people created by God. But what he did is he stood up at the pulpit and he just kept saying, he is with you.
00:36:02
Speaker
He is with you. He is with you. And it felt like somebody was singing over me.
00:36:14
Speaker
And it had such a calming effect, especially when he was saying the way the times that this is said in the story of Joseph are the dark times. Yeah. Was God with him when he was like...
00:36:29
Speaker
The it man? Well, yeah. Was God with him when he was parading around in a coat that his brothers were jealous of? And telling them they were going to bow to him. Right. But what needed to be told to those of us who would read the story this much farther down the line is that God is with us in the hard places. They may be perplexing. They will make no sense often. But will I venture to believe that the God of the crucifixion, that the theology of suffering, the God who is the author of that, is with me in this time of pain in my own life?
00:37:14
Speaker
And so to bring that back around to this idea then of caring for meeting our younger self, caring for a younger self, am I getting this right?
Parenting Stages and Growth in Faith
00:37:23
Speaker
Because I'm newer to this than you, but it's not only, you know, God is with me.
00:37:28
Speaker
now as i face trouble present day but it's a way of looking at there was a time in the past where i you know my my eight-year-old self faced this you know what his suffering what his difficulty was and the concept we're getting at is providing care now to that young child who didn't get enough care then who wasn't held and you know just rocked and said this going to be okay. I'm with you.
00:37:58
Speaker
that That young eight-year-old guy is still in me. And there are times you would probably be the better, the best witness of this. He shows up, would you say, doesn't he? Yeah. um Where I'm, it's not, you know, you wouldn't say, oh, there's an eight-year-old, but I am operating out of a different state of being, a younger self. I mean, Allender says, yeah how old are you? You have that many years, you know, and more, virgin you they're in you It's not like they're multiple personalities. It's not that. It's the same you.
00:38:31
Speaker
But you your body bears the scars and wounds of what you experienced at 8, at 12, at 15. And also said the beautiful things. And the beautiful, yes. It's a constellation. Yes, because I look at my young self and and and aspects...
00:38:45
Speaker
of of my personality and how i am and the fact that becoming a counselor that I can trace to also to that same house, to that same ah you know environment where I learned skills, where I learned to attune to people's feelings you know in and in a a certain way. um But so the idea then being...
00:39:05
Speaker
Not just to describe, I had these bad things out. I had somebody come in and just describe ah recently, you know, it's actually the person who talked about seventh grade and staying, we're not moving anymore.
00:39:16
Speaker
That person, a woman also described four or five major, major um harms. I mean, between sexual abuse, drug addiction in one parent, you know yeah i mean, what they are carrying was tremendous.
00:39:33
Speaker
um And they can describe it, but no, they haven't gone near letting themselves feel the pain of that. And, and and you know, kind of what we were saying is, how could you?
00:39:44
Speaker
Well, because I think it requires a very sophisticated level of thinking yeah to be able to entertain that God would, could, chose to be present at a time like that and quite frankly still let the event happen. Yes. okay It's perplexing. It doesn't make sense. And so I think oftentimes this is why we have to go back. we have We need to draw upon the level of thinking and theological development we have now and take it back into that place where there was a young child who could not conceive of it this way. Okay, so then you had some good thoughts. Kind of tie that to ah we have to kind of have a a new regard, maybe as a way to phrase it, for the younger version of ourselves, partly recognizing sometimes that maybe what's getting activated or I'm operating out of that. If I stop and say, how young do I feel right now? That's a strange question, but it actually is a helpful question yeah because I can tell the difference between that and you know how I sit here now.
00:40:52
Speaker
Pretty calm, regulated, aware of a lot of things, right? um certainly far less you know but but also trusting god How do you tie that to kind of how a parent-child relationship, you know, tends to change? How does that reflect it in our relationship with God as father?
00:41:09
Speaker
Well, I mean, the first thing that came to mind is when you said, how old do I feel right now? And then you started transitioning into parenting. I'm thinking of some of the hardest interactions with one of our children when they were a teenager. Okay. And I would essentially either visibly or inside my head be rolling my eyes. Okay. At that point we are peers fighting for power oh good way to put it no would not have I was not an adult. No, I was very much a teenager.
00:41:44
Speaker
I was very much 16 myself. Well, we'll see if you do. Well, yeah, you'll watch me. Okay. Right. So you got two teenagers then. Yeah. um But yeah, when I think of parent and child relationships, our children now in their twenties, one being almost 30, they relate to us in very different ways and need us for very different things than they did when they were three, five, and seven. That is right. If they were still coming up to us and saying, Daddy, I'm hungry. Feed me. You know, like they did at five and six when it was perfectly right. If they were still doing that now, we would identify that as a problem for them. And if we were trying to treat them that way, also, here, let me cut up your food for you. You know, 20 minutes. But think it can look more subtle. It can look like, I want you to be me. Right.
00:42:36
Speaker
Okay. And imitation would be a very young skill. Okay. This is like younger than 10. I want to be whatever you want me to be mom so that you'll be happy with me and I'll get rewards and that consequence. Oh yeah.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yes. They left that kind of thinking a while ago. Right. So it's, it's not even just the laughable, like mom, come tuck me in You know, it may look more like, um, I can't make a decision about my job. and so have to call you constantly to ask or, um, you know, just something that's a little more subtle. Well, it's the idea of individuation where they have to, in order to form a self and be able to move into the world and govern themselves and make their own decisions, they have to individuate, which means they have to kick against the goats they have to take
00:43:32
Speaker
What we have taught them, painstakingly by the way and passionately, yeah they have to take that and reject it in a sense to some degree and it looks different for different... To form it into their own thinking. So they have ownership. Yes. So they're not just following, they're actually leading their own lives. And that part is painful because...
00:43:53
Speaker
i don't know about you but i tend to think hey look i am presenting to you a very thoughtful nuance considered version of christianity i've thought through all the difficult things i've stuck it to the man of all the stuffy people who can only sing in pews and wear choir robes look at us we are we've kicked all of that all that form and all that uh rigorousness and traditionalism we kick it to the curb so you could have this nice new you know uh modern faith and they come along they're like you know
00:44:26
Speaker
well None of that. i mean, what you are is there's two There's no personal formation in that. It's like, here, I have created you. I'm going to drop you into life and expect you to know what to do.
00:44:39
Speaker
Like, they have to come into their own. Yes. Again, to lead their own lives and not just mimic what I have told them. And so if it makes sense for two things i've here here I hear you saying, for as people grow, particularly teens to to adults, our relationship with the world and how we understand it grows in complexity.
00:45:02
Speaker
And it also has to kind of be willing to risk or challenge what's been handed as truth. what's been handed as certainty if nothing else so it becomes their home And it's not just memory. Right.
00:45:16
Speaker
um It would seem like that would apply also as we were relating to God and thinking about our younger selves as well. In other words, wouldn't make sense that over time, even as we're adults, even I love that, you know, you at 50, 55, you're not 56 yet, right? I can say that. I can say that online.
00:45:38
Speaker
um But you chose your mid-20s self about half your age. And I love that because it's two adult virgins. And you can recognize the difference. And it's profound. yeah It's not just up when I was a child, was big as child, and then I became an adult, and put my child things. It's like, well, no that's that's a continuum. That's a process, and it's still ongoing.
00:46:02
Speaker
I hope in 20 more years I'll be able to write about being 55. Yes. And we'll have learned and grown. And that's where, mean, people like Dan Allender and others are sort of such a
00:46:17
Speaker
you said yeah i love that you appreciate my wisdom of now, but I said a lot of foolish things to get here. i at 55 knew nothing either. um That gives me hope. um So with that kind of idea, if if, you know, our relationship with God, with maybe with theology, with our young selves kind of, you know, change is not something to to fear or run from. It's actually sort of the order of the day. It's kind how you know there's growth and maturation happening.
00:46:47
Speaker
what are some of the fears or what what what do you think makes it hard for us or and for people that we work with also, um to to embrace this idea of, you know, I'm going to be changing, growing,
Fears of Changing Self and Faith Dynamics
00:47:02
Speaker
evolving. There are younger versions of me, that whole thing. i think it's because sometimes we equate our relationship with God changing with God changing. Okay. Okay.
00:47:14
Speaker
So, you know, I believe that God is the same yesterday, today, forever. Okay. There's also some confusing stories about how the, you know, the widow was able to talk him into something.
00:47:27
Speaker
Right? Well, he changed his mind. Yeah, he changed his mind. He decided not to destroy the earth. I'm not theologically versed enough to say what that means. I see what you did there. That's a nice pun for you.
00:47:41
Speaker
what not theologically verse verse ah didn't think about that. I don't get it. so i I think that we're we're afraid of the idea of God changing. And I do think that his characteristics stay the same.
00:47:54
Speaker
He is good. He is loving. He comes for his people. He will not leave. But I think that our relationship with him, as we know ourselves better, as we encounter different parts of life, we need different parts of him.
00:48:10
Speaker
There are times I need the resurrected Jesus to give me hope. Yes. There are times I need the crucified Jesus to understand and comprehend the suffering of the darkness I'm walking in. Okay. There are times I need the ascended Jesus to allow me to look into the future. Okay. For the things I do not yet know.
00:48:36
Speaker
um And so my relationship with him changes. That does not mean he changes. And you can even apply that to, I mean, we get the story of Jesus and the gospels over the three year span he's on earth and think about it, the different vignettes of what he did and the parables he told, all of those are also kind of somewhat separate distinct truth they're all part of the larger truth and mystery who he is, but sometimes I need the Jesus who wept with Lazarus. Yes. Sometimes I need the Jesus who turned over some tables and said, this will not stand. You're turning my father's house into a house of robbers.
00:49:15
Speaker
And so we we allow Jesus to have complexity yeah in the different parts of God that he manifested in. human bodily form. Um, and, and that sort of, you know, we, we, we want to, to take hold of those different aspects of him. So it would make sense that, that there are different aspects of him that we would experience differently in different seasons of life.
00:49:39
Speaker
Yeah. Um, it and and we shouldn't be too afraid of this idea of god becoming more complex i mean but one of the i had the great privilege i don't think i've got to tell you about it but a friend of mine who i i love dearly, is a reader. We bonded over Flannery O'Connor, but he was asking a couple of us at something at church about, you know, what should he read with his sixth or seventh year old, seventh grade child.
00:50:02
Speaker
And he made the mistake of saying he hadn't read ah the Chronicles of Narnia yet. And then my other friend and I just pounced right away. like What? You're looking for something to read? A middle schooler?
00:50:15
Speaker
Oh my goodness. Forget anything else. Don't listen to anybody. else says read they'll edit and I warn him you have to start the line which in wardrobe don't buy one of those defective sets that starts logically with magician's nephew read them in the order they were written but um the reason I mentioned that is because we all you know a lot of us have heard and celebrate I think it's the silver chair it's the character Jill pole when she encounters Aslan up on the cliff and basically you know
00:50:50
Speaker
Aslan, he's mighty and terrified. and She's like, well, promise you won't eat me. And he's like, I'm not making a promise at all. I've eaten you know kings. I've just destroyed countries, all this stuff. But you need this water. I'm providing it for you. So she's encountering if there's a God, and he's way more powerful than I thought.
00:51:07
Speaker
But the even more iconic scene is in Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, where the Peppensy kids are learning from and Mrs. Beaver about Aslan. And they say, is he safe oh no who's saying about safe but he is good right there there's a ah moving of complexity the way asler is depicted he's he gets the claws out he has power he's also so gentle They also can rest in his fur. Does that make sense? Yeah, it depends on what's needed.
00:51:33
Speaker
Yes. And I think we were talking about this in in the last episode. um We have so much theology and belief as it gets us to a certain point. But then we hit these, Jay Stringer calls them, you know critical periods or crisis, critical. of Those words have the same root where I'm off the map now.
00:51:52
Speaker
i' that video know i had the map it got me to here And now i' I'm lost the wilderness or I'm in so much pain. I can't think I don't feel whatever. And so those are those times of, well, either you can try to keep fitting it into your, your more primitive sort of,
00:52:14
Speaker
ah not very nuanced, you know, black and white understanding, or your concept of God has to expand somehow. uhu um Or you conclude, i guess he's cruel, he's against me. You know, and there are Psalms where the Psalmist is saying, are you cruel? Are you asleep at the wheel? What's going on? So the wrestling is good.
00:52:30
Speaker
And the, um but but what can come out of it is, ah is that that witness like you said with mike pronouncing yeah you know he is with you is with you and and and we only through living mean it'd be something to tell our 25 or 30 year old selves you will meet god it's not going to happen where you think it's not going to happen the way you think but i can tell you this god's real because i've met him and i've experienced him and it's We were talking about this in ah in a Sunday school class this morning of in ways sometimes that don't have any words to actually explain how I knew God was with me and his comfort was real and visceral.
00:53:08
Speaker
yeahp Does that make sense to you? it does. So thinking here as we've wrapped up a conversation that I've enjoyed, um we've been on a bit of a meandering path.
00:53:22
Speaker
So how would you sum up what we're wanting people to most here? Well, I was going of tie it back to, so we were were talking about we're we're afraid of God becoming more complex. I think we also, you know, have a ah ah difficult relationship with our own, the idea of our own concept of ourself changing.
Identity and Personal Growth Fears
00:53:42
Speaker
Like that's what I was just talking a minute ago of of I've got my map. It gets me to this part of the world. I think at least for me, I've held on to, I am this way. I see myself a certain way. I want not only the world to work a certain way, God to work is certain way, but I want to be regarded a certain way. Does that make sense? I think that's been some of the harder things for me to let go of are aspects of my personality or style relating that I'm like, I'm just this kind of person.
00:54:08
Speaker
Or of course I did that because i you know i can look at things. ummen I can understand, as I said with clients, why it's hard to consider change.
00:54:20
Speaker
because there's ah there's a sense of what wait if i don't get to operate the way I have as myself. If I don't get to do the things I do, who am I? Okay, so it's like a loss of identity? Yes, it's ah it's an identity thing. um And what kinds of things are you thinking of that are hard to grow past, move away from?
00:54:42
Speaker
I think for me, like the dependence on, so in that home where I was, where there was a lot of fighting and arguing and I jumped into it and I had the opportunity, as I've talked about in other episodes, to speak into it and sort of bring a pause or at a detente or a you know, something.
00:54:59
Speaker
I... i put all my eggs in the I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm articulate, I will talk my way, I will argue my way out of any situation.
00:55:10
Speaker
And that got me really far in life. That got a lot of success in school and being a lawyer and things like that from that tool, which I'm still grateful for that tool. I never want to be a not good communicator.
00:55:25
Speaker
But I ran into situations my words could not fix or pain that my words could not express, that sort of thing. And so I'm literally in this process of becoming, even I'm saying you know this after after talking for two minutes straight, but less of that, less of that protective, less of that strategy that that I think is going to make me safe and more room for God to just be with and in me.
00:55:51
Speaker
Okay, so you're entrusting yourself to a position where people may not listen to you, understand you, um learn from you, whatever it might be, convinced by you. Yeah, I even feel something, a young self of mine, rising up when you say people might not understand you. like, oh, hell no. That's like, I crave. Would you say that? I crave being understood so much.
00:56:19
Speaker
Even if I've done something wrong bad,
00:56:23
Speaker
i won't do it again you know i being being Being able to come become content with being misunderstood, and it's really hard too because I'm a teacher of that trade. I'm an educator also. And like, I have to be understood or I have no job.
00:56:38
Speaker
um But I have to sometimes be okay being misunderstood. And that's been a journey. and that That's what you're saying you're growing into. Yes. But it's hard to let that yes that outer covering, that outfit fall away. Yes. And that's where God being with me, the sense of God with me present but also past is helpful Because what I've learned to do instead of chide myself for, here I go, explaining, arguing, trying to be understood again, and shaming myself over it, I am more in touch with, wait, who was the kid that had to adopt that as their way of finding hope, meaning, significance, whatever, of distinguishing themselves, of being seen?
00:57:21
Speaker
of What did he expect? those things. ah What would you say? I mean, there are things that you picked up as well in the family you grew up in. are the things you've had to to learn to to recognize and bless for what they did for you to get you so far, but to let them go so that God could actually inhabit you?
00:57:42
Speaker
I think I would say the self-protection that comes through isolation. a um to instead move into community even when I'm not sure if it's trustworthy. Oh, yeah. But so that I can love and risk being loved.
00:58:01
Speaker
um But that's a place that I very much need him. Yeah, because one of the things you learned is like if if I can't play this game and win, I just won't play. yeah Okay. so for And play the game meaning do the things to get connections.
00:58:19
Speaker
that may not be good so yes Without saying. So that answers your question of of how we'd wrap this up, what we want people to take away, why don't you do that?
00:58:28
Speaker
Well, I'm just thinking that, you know, it's been a really good conversation and people may be feeling the many different places we stopped along the way.
00:58:41
Speaker
And so I think I'm wanting people to hear that in the incredibly complicated lives we live, in the midst of a very perplexing world, good word especially right now, that God is here and God is good and God will not leave.
Conclusion: Trusting God Amidst Life's Mysteries
00:59:05
Speaker
And that we have to lean into the mystery that we will not understand, but that we will trust. And I'm thinking of earlier you mentioned, um before we got on this recording, you mentioned Mother Teresa, in the time that is pretty famous. She was asked to pray for someone to have clarity.
00:59:30
Speaker
And her response was challenging. She said, I will not pray for you to have clarity, for clarity is the crutch for the Christian.
00:59:42
Speaker
I've never had it So I will not pray for that, but I will pray that you will trust God. And that's in the mystery. That's in the perplexing nature of life.
00:59:56
Speaker
And so may we all be able to look toward heaven with eyes and hearts that trust when we have no answers. May we experience God in ways that are personal and particular.
01:00:10
Speaker
Yeah. And that may defy explanation or understanding. Yeah. But we experience them deeply enough that we need to treasure them. Yeah. So happy weekend. Be well. Thanks for being with us.
01:00:24
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling, PLLC, a counseling teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time.
01:00:36
Speaker
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01:00:51
Speaker
and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net.