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Big News! Introducing Chris the intern (Yes, THAT Chris)
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There’s a new intern at Nurture Counseling — and y’all, while Chris Osborn might be married to Wendy, that doesn’t mean he’s off the hook for the usual intern duties. In this episode, we officially welcome Chris to the team… and gently remind him that coffee runs and red carpet rollouts may still be part of the gig.
But in all seriousness, this episode opens up a much deeper story — one that’s been unfolding for decades. Chris reflects on his family of origin, growing up in the wake of a very public divorce, and learning early on that being the “good guy” could help him survive and belong. He shares how shame quietly shaped him, how his identity became entangled with performance, and how that eventually unraveled through the pressures of marriage, parenting, caregiving, and calling.
Now, as he steps into the work of therapy, Chris shares the kind of clients he hopes to sit with — especially those who feel like their answers are no longer working, who are worn out from trying to hold it all together, and who need a safe place to be fully seen. With humor, humility, and a deeply thoughtful presence, Chris is stepping into this new chapter with both feet — and a lot of heart.
This conversation is honest, funny, and full of grace. It’s about the stories we carry, the systems that shaped us, and the quiet courage to begin again — a courage that doesn’t come from within, but from the love of a God who meets us right where we are.
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Transcript
Introduction of Counseling Practice and Intern
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome back and happy weekend. Hi, Chris. Hi, Wendy, and hi, folks. Today, i am introducing a new stage in nurture counseling. What? i have an intern, which I've lovingly dubbed my minion.
00:00:23
Speaker
Oh. And it's you. um my goodness. Wait a minute. i didn't know about the minion part. Oh, you do. You That was not in the job description. It was there from the start. my goodness. It was there from the start. So one of our daughters this morning suggested that maybe part of this job description...
00:00:39
Speaker
Is you bring me coffee when I want it and you roll out a red carpet everywhere I walk. Oh, my goodness. You mean like ah like I don't already do that? Is that what you want people to think? I think you could up it little bit. I could up my game?
00:00:50
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Oh, my goodness. So in all seriousness, you are almost completely done with your degree. I can't believe it. sans your practicum and internship. That is correct. They have, ah let me cram all the book learning parts into my head, and there's been some practical skills learning and training parts of it.
00:01:13
Speaker
But the main part, it feels like ah you know everything that's that I've studied is is sort of leading to, hey, it's time to really start doing it. And they you know I love how the counseling profession regulates this You got to do it under supervision. you got to do it as part of the degree before you can get the degree.
00:01:30
Speaker
um And so they they call you an intern and let you get started. And it has worked out amazingly for me to be able to do that through and at Nurture. Yes. Now, I will not be your supervisor.
00:01:42
Speaker
That is correct. Because not going to risk our marriage with that. No, that would be a little bit. So you have another trauma counselor in town who is a former professor in the Gordon-Conwell Counseling Program. That's right.
00:01:57
Speaker
Wonderful guy who will be doing your weekly supervision. That's right. His name is Dr. Christopher Cook, and i hope we'll have a chance to introduce him to everybody on the podcast. He's a great guy.
00:02:07
Speaker
We actually met doing narrative-focused trauma care at the Islander Center. We were in the same small group and having some of the same sort of journey and processing and kind of get in touch with our hearts and figuring out what was going on kind of on a different level. Great.
00:02:22
Speaker
So we will start with the basics of what this will mean. And then I'm going to sort of make people privy to my interview of you. Oh, there we go. this sp So you are going to work primarily on Friday afternoons. That's the plan right now. Yeah, we're to have about four or five slots and maybe four at least to start with.
00:02:45
Speaker
And those will be in person at our new offices. Now I'll be doing some virtual. I'll be in the same basically yeah room that you're doing, ah there that you're doing your therapy in, but you won't be around those days because you'll be doing remote or other stuff.
00:02:58
Speaker
And I may have other slots open up ah depending on need. I'm hoping to do some group work as as well, either some, you know, just some seminars, workshops, or if there's interest in actual group kind of processing. and Yeah, you've got some ideas brewing. Yes. um There will be a reduced rate, which we will let people know later. But just because you're not fully credentialed, um that's how pretty much all interns enter the game. But um it's a good way for you to get the hours you have to get and other people to get really good care at a reduced rate because you'll be supervised for everything you do.
00:03:39
Speaker
It's also a secret plot takeover. Ah, good luck. Good luck. All right.
Personal Reflections and Youth Experiences
00:03:46
Speaker
so okay am now going to interview you sort of retrospectively, similarly to how I have interviewed you during our life together. okay And and the it's not gonna be like that all the time.
00:04:02
Speaker
No. Although I do have to say with this minion boss thing. ah So Bossy Bueller's Chicken Shack, my favorite for iced tea outside of McAllister's.
00:04:14
Speaker
And I did break down and buy one of their T-shirts today. So Aunt Bossy's motto was, it's okay to be bossy as long as you're right. The one I bought today says the bossiest of all.
00:04:26
Speaker
So I was like, you know, it would be fitting to wear that today, but it's like 100 degrees. And I couldn't bring myself to put on a cotton t-shirt. That's Bossy Bula's Chicken Shack on Freedom Drive, also now in South End and other locations around Charlotte. it's a good commercial. i like that. hope they hear us and maybe, you know give us some sponsor love. Just kidding.
00:04:45
Speaker
They give me some free tea because I'm in there so often. So they're very free life at this point. ok Okay, want to know a little bit, like we know that you are a lawyer.
00:04:57
Speaker
This has been your career. yes You are not giving up your law practice. um You are merely adding in another component. And you don't know what it'll look like long term, but for now, you'll be doing both.
00:05:11
Speaker
um I want to start by asking you about your own healing journey. Oh, wow. Okay. So when you think back to maybe, so you and I are in our mid fifties now.
00:05:24
Speaker
That is correct. We got married when we were just over 20. I think you were 22. was 23 and you turned 23 a few weeks after. That's right. We were 22 and 23. I was turning 23. That's right.
00:05:36
Speaker
i was turning twenty three that's right So it's been 32 that we've been walking and growing and healing together.
00:05:48
Speaker
So when you think back to the you who got married to me, what would you say was the fuel that kind of kept you going? What what is it that um that ah surrounded the way you showed up in the world?
00:06:06
Speaker
Okay. um I think there's a few different ways you could you could conceptualize it. I think I was the nice guy, the good guy. i you was a pretty straight-laced, I guess, straightforward kind of person.
00:06:18
Speaker
Smart, did well in school. Would you say straightforward? Oh, straightforward. That may may not have been the best word. No. um I was going to say straight lace, but that's that that word doesn't sound exactly right either. um ah think I think I was, you know, like the valedictorian, you know, super smart, got scholarships to school. President of our youth group. Vice president. i was there.
00:06:42
Speaker
ah vice I was a vice president of lots of stuff. I actually never was president. That's one clue that I didn't have real leadership skills that anybody recognized or wanted. I usually knew enough to get, I could get elected vice president, which I figured out early on. You didn't have to do anything. yeah That's a good rule. Secretary? No way.
00:06:59
Speaker
No, oh not I'm not the person for secretary, but vice president was always like a figurehead sort of thing that looked good at the time. You know, we were all worried about our college transcripts or application transcripts. and And you didn't have to do like you have to do these days and like save a country and invent a whole solution to something. i mean, you just had to have a bunch of stuff on there. Look, he was the vice president of something called the Key Club.
00:07:22
Speaker
I don't even remember. i think I was in it. I can't remember. i don't even know what it was or why was in it. It was not about keys and locks. It was some kind of about civic service. But I need to be um regarded as helpful. I'm not sure how helpful actually was, but I would do the things to be in places where, oh, my gosh, look at those helpful people or look at that nice person or whatever um to get the glow and the the feedback of it. But I was not like this servant guy, don't think.
00:07:48
Speaker
Okay, so I think that's interesting what you just said. i wanted to be one of those, look at all those hopeful people helpful helpful people over there.
Marriage, Family Expectations, and Personal Growth
00:07:56
Speaker
What did that do for you if people thought you were helpful and good?
00:07:59
Speaker
Well, I think I wanted the regard. I wanted to be... a good kid, a good guy, partly because what i could what I could have articulated at that time was i knew my ah my parents had divorced when I was 10. It had been very chaotic and difficult.
00:08:17
Speaker
And my mom was determined that we weren't going to be a statistic. There was so much coming out, you know, no fault divorce had had arrived in the 70s. And there was all this energy around the children of divorce grow up to have all these problems and to be, you know, suffering in all these different ways. And my mom was like, Yeah, I remember having the image. It was like they're axe murderers and they're like terrible. They drop out of school. Like it was such a sensationalistic slant. When even the language around it, ah you're from a broken home now.
00:08:48
Speaker
um As I look back on that, I'm like, oh, number one, I think a lot of homes are broken. Whether there's a divorce that happens or not, there's a lot of brokenness in the one sense. And to say that, well, only those kids are, are you know,
00:08:59
Speaker
suffering and broken or yeah broken to some a different degree. I don't view it that way anymore. But that was the stigma that I sort of felt up against. Number one, I didn't have a father figure in my home afterwards. My mom remarried for a short time, had a stepfather for like ah a hot minute.
00:09:18
Speaker
um And then I did have, you know, men in my life, of father figures, sort of, who who would take me under their wing or sort of, you know, gave me some attention, but nothing that was on the anywhere close to replacing, um you know, a good fatherly male presence. And my dad was pretty much not involved.
00:09:36
Speaker
from ages, not at all from ages 15 to 22 and really not much between 12 and 15 either. So I also had kind of, a i sort of picked up what I learned from my mom.
00:09:48
Speaker
She was social, nice, friendly. We went to church. I think I did you know meet Jesus at a young age to some degree as much as you can with a Barely break brain then.
00:09:59
Speaker
yeah um But I became kind of, yeah, youth group kid. I could sing and act. So I liked being on the stage. And I've talked about that before on the podcast. so I won't go into here. But like the stage was a comfortable place for me because I could pretend i could put on a character. And I like to do a lot of that, probably putting on um being funny.
00:10:18
Speaker
You know my friends and I always knew the you know jokes and routines from comedians or SNL, stuff like that. So how do you think this longing to be regarded well intersected with the loss of your dad in your life?
00:10:34
Speaker
I think, um i think ah well, and some of this only put together more in recent years was our family's breakup or their breakup was fairly well known in our neighborhood. Like it was kind of notorious because i think i I remember spending nights at four or five different neighbors' houses or going to get our next door neighbors in the middle of some horrible conflict my mom would send me over you know go get so and so or whatever um and so i think i felt to some degree like all eyes were on us i couldn't have articulated it that way but i sort of felt like oh my gosh everybody knows we're that family that everybody has to sort of step in and help out and what's happening now you know and so that sounds very shaming yes don't know how that landed with you but I couldn't have named it as shame. I think it operated on me internally yeah without me being aware of it.
00:11:26
Speaker
yeah And therefore, i was instead determined to, I will dazzle. I will impress. I will get such good grades that you'll think I'm so smart. I will you know sing so beautifully or act or whatever.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I wanted that acclaim. I wanted eyes on me in a good way, I think. and To it kind of a desperate level. is Is there some part of it too, like i almost wonder, you know, we can't believe he came from that home.
00:11:52
Speaker
Look at him. Yes. Yes. Like you were defying statistics so well. It was very much on that level. And then was also showed up, I think, in how I interacted with, you know, girls as an adolescent, like when you and I met and how I dated and things like that.
00:12:09
Speaker
My dad was such a screw up and was so um harmful and hurtful. I'm not going to do that. I will be the nice guy. I will be um the the kind soul. And and that led me in part because I physically developed, I think, a little bit later because I had to do a lot of emotional maturing.
00:12:27
Speaker
to some degree at that level to survive my family. um So I was the best friend. I was the nice guy. The fraternity I was at at Chapel Hill was that's the nice guy fraternity. That's who you called if you need somebody to walk you home at night, you know, that's the safe fraternity. I'm not saying every one of my fraternity brothers was like that, but But we had that sort of reputation. That worked for me. I want to be ah good guy. um And so where that played out later, though, was I, you know, ah parlayed that into, OK, I go to law school, i become a lawyer, ah we're married, we're starting to raise kids. And and part of the I think what happened is i just I found myself at different moments running out of
00:13:07
Speaker
whatever that good guy, nice guy fuel was, or coming to the end of it, or sort of played out all my bag of tricks of here's how I'll be nice, here's I'll be charming, how I'll be sensitive, whatever, wouldn't always work.
00:13:20
Speaker
Can you think of a time, either inside our family or outside, where your answers, your tricks ran out, they weren't doing the trick, so to speak?
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it there were some glimpses of it early on when we, as we talked about in the podcast, when we first got married and we had been best friends and we had no context for we are going to actually land on each other's, you know, we had these places of harm and and wounding that we were completely unaware of.
00:13:54
Speaker
And the first cracks I can remember were in that season of conflict and rage kind of came out of me kind of early on. Right. Well, because what you knew to do was not working.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yes. And it had worked many times before. we We have our strategies because they work. Yes, yes. um And so, and yeah, it it sort of worked because I i ah did get to marry my best friend. I married somebody that was very in love with, very attracted to.
00:14:21
Speaker
it was working. Then we get married and we have this conflict and and and we have you know difficulties and challenges and that nobody really prepared us for. And so I think I was the first sort of round of what just happened. Where did this rage come from?
00:14:36
Speaker
But my answer at that point in time was how I approached everything else. Wait a minute. There's a problem. There's an answer out there somewhere. I will learn how to fix this. I will learn how to deal with my temper or I will learn how to be a better husband.
00:14:50
Speaker
um And we sort of took that approach. There was always a book we could read or something we could learn. I think we went to probably five or six marriage retreats at different points in time. You know, this will fix it. This will fix us. And part of what I didn't know was happening, though, is I was desperate for something to fix, to control whatever it was.
00:15:10
Speaker
And anything I adopted would work for a while. is is That's part of the dangerous part, too, wouldn't you say? Yeah. And i'm I'm even struck though by the language you used. We use it like to fix us. Yeah. And before like broken home that you you know made a good point that, you know, all homes have some degree of brokenness in them because they're all made of humans.
00:15:33
Speaker
they're They're full of beauty and brokenness, but we just, we have this way of seeing ourselves as needing to be fixed, maybe as projects. And so that's the kind of thing that having an answer or a solution would appeal to.
00:15:49
Speaker
Yes. So I, yeah. but well And that's one of the things ive I think I've learned in later years, how how deep how deep that drive went for answers. um And I've talked about, I think, in another podcast episode, just Encyclopedia Brown was my hero growing up, or Sherlock Holmes. Detectives, I loved the person who solved the crime, the person who saved the day. I still read um detective stories, murder mysteries. It's one of the yeah genres of fiction I'll always kind of come back to. I'm reading one now by Anthony Horowitz, who is fantastic.
00:16:20
Speaker
um And I love that being the person who figures out the answers yeah and gets it done. The problem is, um ah so as we, you know, had kids, I'm running a law or I'm in a law practice, I'm a partner in the law firm.
00:16:35
Speaker
At some point in time, I didn't feel like I wasn't holding everything together well. It would show up some in my in my work in sort of chaos and just disorganization.
00:16:47
Speaker
i was undiagnosed at that time, but um ADHD, it turns out, was a a factor for me, which had always been masked by my intelligence. I could always, you know, I waited until the last minute to do everything in the world, but I did it well.
Balancing Career and Family
00:17:01
Speaker
yeah um Even I had to stay up all night um the night before something was due or the night before an exam, but I would pull the all-nighter and it would be A-level work, so nobody was noticing or worried about me. But really what happened is trying to navigate career, which was going fine, and our relationship and kids and then mom at at that point in time, ah you know, mom's bow with cancer.
00:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. And she had needs and kept kind of pulling us back in. And we were rightly wanting to care for her and be with her in her cancer journey. And there was, you know, I started running into, I don't actually have an endless supply of energy or boundless resources.
00:17:43
Speaker
um I didn't have a self, I think, as I look back now, as i was bopping back and forth from, i here I go do my job. Now I'm doing what I'm doing at church. Now I'm the dad. Now I'm, you know, all those And if I can pause you for just a minute, I'm aware, you know, there's this,
00:18:01
Speaker
belief in your c si in your family early on, that your family is broken and your mom refuses to let y'all be a statistic. Yeah.
00:18:11
Speaker
Okay. But she also needed you to do a lot of fixing. Go get the neighbor. Yes. um Call your father, see if you can get him to come home. Like there were a lot of things like that. And so We develop a sense of loyalty to the um the philosophy, if you will, of our family of origin.
00:18:34
Speaker
And so I'm wondering, as you look back on this narrative about the home being broken, there needed to be answers so that you didn't fail the way your dad did. We would go to, you know, six million marriage conferences I'm wondering what it's been like to let the loyalty to that system go, which also means letting go of this perception that answers will change the world. They will change your life. They will save you.
00:19:08
Speaker
What's interesting that you phrase it that way, because um a step, a big step in journey, I think when we started going and and getting any couples counseling or counseling at all, was partly because we had we felt like we had all these external things.
00:19:24
Speaker
Mom's cancer, those challenges. We didn't go because we we thought we had any difficult dynamic in our relationship. We knew we fought, but we didn't think there was much to that. yeah And that's where we began experiencing somebody being a safe person um to to to ask some thoughtful questions like, well, um can you care for your you know kids and your wife like you want to and your mom at the degree, at the level she's needing or wanting you to?
00:19:48
Speaker
And that woke me up just even to the idea of I've got to think about in terms of those loyalties, in terms of what have i been operating? What's my operating system, if you will, and and how did it get wired?
00:20:02
Speaker
And a big moment was a time during that whole stretch when um in a conversation one time, my mom kind of went down a path she had gone down before, and there's so much to love about her, and she's a wonderful person. But in this moment,
00:20:16
Speaker
This was not her best side on display, but she said sort of attackingly, contentiously, you and your family, you just have to put your family first. You're always putting your family first. And for the first time, I actually rose up and looked her in the face and said, yes, I have to.
00:20:32
Speaker
That is what I'm actually supposed to do. If I don't have the capacity and resources to handle everything that is possible that I could do or should do, I've got to start prioritizing. And yes, I have to choose them over you.
00:20:45
Speaker
And that's a really hard thing to say and to live out. It was gut-wrenching. remember that. And I think it felt a lot like near death. It did. It was years in the making to get to the point yeah to say that. Because I probably had tried to say things here and there, tried to do little things. And this was a moment I still remember where we were standing in our kitchen. I still remember the look on her face and how I felt. and it was this declaration of,
00:21:10
Speaker
Yes, I can't do all this. And I'm sorry, I have to be less for you right now because I'm responsible for these kids and this and and my family. And we are responsible, you know, we as the adults, as the parents.
00:21:25
Speaker
And so if something's got to give, if I have, and that was that I did not like the reality constraint. of you don't have enough energy, you're not killing it, you're not crushing it, something is goodnna suffering is all you're going to suffer because I'm the kind of person who would always take on more things. Sure, I'll do it. Sure, I'll do it.
00:21:41
Speaker
And then not really do it well. Well, and I mean, I feel like that is so core to the human condition. We hate where we are powerless. yeah We hate when we have run out of ourselves yeah and our own strength.
00:21:55
Speaker
And so you were contending with that then. So the beginning of it was naming, i am i'm powerless, I'm limited. I'm sorry, mom, there has to be a season where we can't be as helpful. And that it felt like death yeah at the time. It did. um She didn't respond well to start with. Now things got you know better later. It was a formative moment that that helped.
00:22:16
Speaker
um and and helped catalyze different things for her. But then was like, okay, I've sort of put that aside. I'm focusing just on our relationship and doing my job and being a parent, all this.
00:22:29
Speaker
And it's still, things weren't working. Our conflict was still seemed intractable. And then I couldn't, fix it again even though i'm okay i'm focused now just on what i need to be and um but um and i was you know i guess i was leading in the church as well and so trying to do that yeah bunch of us were all trying to figure that out um but again i remember even as we had conflict i went back to that there's got to be an answer once we got a taste of couples counseling oh my gosh the counselor says this or the counselor gave us a book and it was helpful and we learned this well i'm still
00:23:04
Speaker
you know, unbeknownst to me, wielding that almost as weaponry. Because the purpose in my heart was not, let me figure out how to love you well, so that we can get through whatever these challenges are. It was, how do I stop you from being so disappointed in me, upset with me? Again, those eyes on me of critique and disappointment. Oh, yeah. That felt like death. You can see how that that reenacted the story of your neighborhood.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And so i didn't know the drivenness I was bringing to something that I thought was noble. I'm trying to be a better husband. Well, no, I'm trying to not get in trouble for being a bad husband ah is really the way I would say it.
00:23:49
Speaker
that That feels very important. And I do it too. We all do it. Oh, yeah. But like, what an epiphany. What an insight.
00:24:01
Speaker
That feels really powerful. And I remember somebody even just pointing out the subtle shift, the difference between I want to be a good husband, which kind of means I want to be regarded as a good husband. That's really what was under. I don't want anybody to be able to say I'm not.
00:24:14
Speaker
and That is a different goal than i want to love my life my wife well. ah Notice it it they they sound very similar, but there's a subtle difference in the second one. I want to love my wife well, which means sometimes the most loving thing I can do is hear, how have I failed?
00:24:31
Speaker
what What did I do? What was hurtful? And not my 10 defenses for why you shouldn't be so bothered by that or it wasn't really that bad or give me a break. What would I say? I would say, cut me some slack. I got this and that, blah, blah, blah. You don't understand. Yeah.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, i we all do this to one another in relationship. And we i feel like we frequently blame the other that they do not believe, feel we are loving them well.
00:24:59
Speaker
Yes. Right. So rather than, can you tell me more about how I am failing you because i I'm sure that I am. It's more, oh my gosh, I can't believe you think that. Or why would you think that I was meaning that?
00:25:13
Speaker
And so what a beautiful, loving insight you had. And I would say it was the beginning. like and there it feels like there are so many of these momentous sort of beginnings, but but the the common theme of them is coming to the end of myself and having, ultimately just having no choice but to admit,
00:25:32
Speaker
I got nothing. I don't have any more tricks. I don't have any more techniques. um and And at one point, I remember powerful moment. We actually, on our very just a quick trip up to the mountains recently, we we stopped through Montreat, which is a place where the church we were at has always had, actually every church we've been at does mentor treats.
00:25:51
Speaker
And I remember passing a place in the creek there where we'd heard another speaker. I forget what it was about, but I remember the moment with God was...
00:26:01
Speaker
I have to lay all the tools down. ah Stop trying whatever, even the things that you think are good, things that are, you know, from, you know, a Christian source or church or whatever.
00:26:13
Speaker
But stop the fixing of of Wendy or trying to of the relationship and just learn how to be. um and experience, you know, be alive to yourself was, I think, a part of it. And the invitation, and I think, that counseling started providing me was I had a safe place where I could express whatever I felt and didn't have to worry about the judgment, the thought, anybody in my head or anybody else saying, but that's not loving, that's not good. That's, you know, I just got somewhere invited to bring my whole self.
00:26:49
Speaker
and And that was new. Well, you know, that is a good segue into a question that I wanted to ask. Go for it. So, you know, as Christians, we love to use God's word, which I think we should. Sure. Okay.
00:27:02
Speaker
And sometimes I sit back and go, okay, what exactly is this Bible we've been left? Hmm. Is this the story of how God made humans?
00:27:13
Speaker
Is this the history of why humans and snakes hate each other? Is this a a chronology of a relationship of God with his people?
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. And so a lot of times we, not knowing how we are choosing to approach the scripture as any of the above, we want to find all our answers there.
00:27:35
Speaker
And that is then what will fix the problems of life. If we can live according to it, if people that we love can, I'm not saying that's not true. But I'm wondering where God met you that day in the creek or Lake Susan, whatever it would be, with um ah asking you to put down your answers, put down your tools.
Spiritual Connection and Vulnerability
00:27:57
Speaker
Who was he to you in that moment when he was like, hey, it's not about all the tools and the answers and quote, getting it right. Right. Oh, um, he started becoming my heavenly father is what happened.
00:28:16
Speaker
Um, I didn't expect to go this direction, but I started to let myself feel what I've been carrying probably for 20 plus years by that point.
00:28:29
Speaker
More than that. He just, God just held me and just met me. and accepted me with all the mess and chaos of feelings that I had. And I began to taste that I could actually be honest. um My prayer life became, i think, way more authentic and inarticulate.
00:28:51
Speaker
Oh, yes. What do you mean by that? I mean, i I began to experience what it's like to to to wail, to moan, to grieve. I became, i think, as the scripture says, you know, Jesus was a man acquainted with grief. And I had not been before that. I could talk about grief. understand it conceptually.
00:29:10
Speaker
I began to unlock my own grief. And why why was this so hard? And why did I feel so strongly that I needed to fix and do this and all this? And God just held me and provided care in the form of of of several men and friends who held me and who let me not have it together. They let me fall apart and they loved me anyway.
00:29:35
Speaker
And I experienced the kindness of God in a deeper and richer way, began to, where part of it was like, hey, you don't need the tools for me. You don't need to fix anything. I'm not sitting here going, hey, product of a broken home, you need to get this shit right.
00:29:52
Speaker
I'm going, I love you for who you are. I'm struck by the tenderness. And a picture like Jesus drawing you to his chest. And he's like, we're going to keep warm by this fire that is fueled by your building plans that I've just shredded.
00:30:09
Speaker
of like Because we don't need them. Right. Like I just want you and I want you to know who I am to you. Yes.
00:30:20
Speaker
I remember hearing Tim Keller during that time period to quote an old hymn or something. It was lay your deadly doing down, down at Jesus feet. It's an old hymn. And rest in him complete. And that became real. Yeah. And where I became, and and it sort of changed how I showed up in our arguments and stuff. I'm like,
00:30:39
Speaker
I'm not arguing. I actually don't have any arguments. You make a good point. Or even if you didn't, I still, you know, I kind of even got away from the whole, um it began the undoing of the having to be right.
00:30:53
Speaker
ah in In life in general, but also in in ah in a conflict. yeah um It became less important to win and to persuade, which was what I, that was my stock in trade. It's what I did for a living. It's what I was darn good at.
00:31:08
Speaker
And just to sit in silence and sometimes have no answer. And I hope, I think, i mean, you speak to that, but i at some point I started to be maybe a little safer For you to actually feel your feelings and not get a damn answer lecture or shutdown of some form from me. Oh, a hundred percent.
00:31:27
Speaker
That's been part of our beautiful journey together. I mean, I've brought my own things that I've needed to change and more of that will always come out here on this podcast. Yeah.
00:31:39
Speaker
No, I began to experience that I too could just be, and I could be brokenhearted. i could be um with nothing left.
00:31:52
Speaker
I could have an opposing opinion and and you would just be in all of those places. What would you say was was hard or difficult about kind of being married to somebody who's sort of answer man and kind of always trying to get it right, fix, have the answer? what what Where did that leave you?
00:32:12
Speaker
Well, I think one place that left me was there was a lot of shame. i felt a lot of shame when I didn't get it right or meet your standard, live according to your answer or meet your standard.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah. And that that that just that breaks my heart to hear now um because now, especially knowing more of your journey that I've learned over the 20 years since then, is would want to make you feel that way.
00:32:43
Speaker
I wouldn't want to pile on shame now that i know you know that that that's been your journey so much. And I had no idea of by being answery and on top of this and I got this, how that does heighten shame.
00:32:55
Speaker
And I can appreciate that now. And I wouldn't want, if I could do it again, my disappointment in you to reenact the stories of your young life. I would want to be able to bring...
00:33:08
Speaker
my grievances and pain in a way that also was very much for you. Yes. Our daughter told us today about the girl she nannies. And um I think this little girl is eight and she lost her dad suddenly um about two years ago.
00:33:25
Speaker
And she took Savannah outside and she said, hold my hands and look in my face. I want to tell you something. And they were getting ready to be separated by her vacation and our daughters.
00:33:39
Speaker
And she said, i may not always be beside you, but I will always be on your team. Yes. And it was the most beautiful, beautiful out of the mouths of babes moment. yeah I may not always be beside you or with you, but you can trust I'm always on your team.
00:33:58
Speaker
And i that's what I want for us. And we missed that in a lot of our journey. It's interesting you use that phrase out of the mouths of babes because you know that's a storied phrase for me. For you. Yeah.
00:34:13
Speaker
Thought of it as I said it. Yes. That's one story I've i've gone back to and realized there was a moment in, and you know, and I'm eight or nine. I'm in one of my parents' conflicts. I am a combatant, you know, with my mom basically talking back, yelling at him. I don't know remember what I said.
00:34:29
Speaker
But I said something that seemed to maybe have some wisdom or profoundness to And I remember my dad, I can picture him and see the expression on his face and hear his tone like, out of the mouths of babes. like Well, and in a way we've talked about that's a bit of an origin story of you carry the right answer in you. That's what I was thinking. That was a very, very formative moment of, ooh, look what my words can do. I sort of stopped him in his tracks. Let's do more of that.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah. And both it was it was both a and honoring isn't that smart and also kind of a shaming. Oh, yeah. I think it was complicated. um Very complicated. But boy, formative in there and driving the, you know, the guy who has to, you know, get all the good grades and crush it in law school and everything else.
00:35:15
Speaker
And so what I would say. Where that journey then went was. being invited to actually feel in present time and allow myself, my body to sort of experience feelings that that were in there from story from growing up as well.
00:35:35
Speaker
And it it was a complexity. i never knew exactly would happen when I would go to a counseling session of, are we going to the present, which is painful enough? Or are we going to the past? And it and would there would always be this mix kind of of both because one of one of my dear beloved counselor, John's, you know, questions always was, have you ever felt this before?
00:35:53
Speaker
You know, and you say you feel alone or scared about, have you felt this before? and I like at first wanted to, you know, run out of the room or smack him or something. um And, but as I became more comfortable with, yes, um I have felt this before. Oh my gosh, so much of how I operate is a drive yeah to not feel certain things again.
00:36:14
Speaker
and that this is all happening below the surface. It's the operating system that I know nothing about. And that journey is, I think what's continued and intensified probably in the last, five or six years as I started ah wrestling with kind of calling.
00:36:30
Speaker
I, in addition to being a lawyer, I've been an educator. What do I love about educating? Why do I love that? Why does that have my heart more than just being you know a lawyer? And it's something about discovery, self-discovery, light bulbs coming on.
00:36:43
Speaker
That was happening. And then as my own healing journeys continued and I've had more opportunities to to unpack you know, my story and how I got here. The common theme that kept coming back was I found either a group of men or other men, or we found a couple together, something, the safety yes of being able to be honest, to be real, to not have the answers and to have people who were comfortable with that.
00:37:09
Speaker
or like And like you said, in real time, not retrospectively, in real time. Yes. As different challenges have come, it It's been this both. um I now and pay much more attention to, you know, how a younger self shows up.
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah. It doesn't surprise. i mean, it still will catch me off guard sometimes, but in general, I've got a little bit better radar for, it I'm operating on something different in this five minutes than I was 10 minutes before that.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah. I want to let people know you've passed the interview. Oh, I passed the interview. You got the job. Okay. And I'm wondering if you would tell us the type of people that you are hoping will show up on your caseload. Yes. Okay.
00:37:56
Speaker
I've just found myself very drawn. I want to be that safe place for other people, for guys in particular, but for couples also who maybe have tried everything and they, maybe their answers are running out and they are sort of in despair or they're battling checking out.
Creating Safe Spaces for Healing
00:38:13
Speaker
They've you know, quit desiring or hoping for change. They're just kind of going through the motions. If you've anybody who's had hope for like, I think marriage is supposed to be more. I think it's supposed to function better. I think I'm supposed to, you know, this is, this is my partner for life and I want there to be joy there, but either there's no room for that amidst the busyness of life. There are family challenges. There are curve balls that get thrown job loss. mean, we've experienced kind of all those things. Yes.
00:38:42
Speaker
fatal family illnesses, job losses, you know serious conflict, things like that. um There were people who who just who were that safe place, who pointed me, who brought me to the foot of Jesus.
00:38:54
Speaker
well, not with a scripture verse and go meditate on this or or just learn this better, but rather when none of that was working, none of that was enough. That feeling, that experience of the bones, let the bones that you have crushed rejoice from Psalm 51, that bone crushing yeah i that I would have about. an embodied Jesus in the midst, would you say? An embodied Jesus, yes, that cares about Our body is... Well, just someone representing him in bodily form. Yes, yes. And embodying his kindness. I would say that's the essence of what Dan Allender does.
00:39:28
Speaker
There is grace and truth. um There is a speaking of truth, but in a kindness and in a context of a loving kindness that is just powerful.
00:39:39
Speaker
I hope I can channel a little bit of that. I hope I can share a little bit of that. Oh, I have no doubt. Just by being, you know, being safe, being real um with folks, ah whatever you're navigating. um There's not anything, I don't think anybody can say anything that that shocks me.
00:39:55
Speaker
It's going to make me go, oh my oh, that, oh gosh, that's really bad. You know, or I think shame is such a formidable force. I think shame has a hold on so many of us. It has had a hold on me in ways that I could not have named.
00:40:10
Speaker
And I sort of, you know, maybe if I have to have a mantra or something, i want to be the sworn enemy of shame. Yeah. and and In people's lives, in couples' lives, in men's lives. and And the antidote to shame is, well, what would you say? How would you answer that? What are the antidotes to shame?
00:40:24
Speaker
Love. Love. Love is the number one love and withness. I'm not walking away. And it's not, and it is God's love. Yes. But God's love is meted out through body of Christ, which is other believers. Right. And that can be church body. That can be other believers, maybe not in your church body, but embodied kindness and a safe presence. It can any human, any image. Yes. Well, and even animals.
00:40:53
Speaker
Even animals. um But that I think, you know, when I look back at the formative experiences that I've had in the last five, six years that have led me on this journey to say, I need to get a counseling degree. I want to do that. I want to bring those skills. I want to bring that mindset, those um just that way of being to bear. i mean, it's been.
00:41:14
Speaker
because of it's been a continued healing journey. It is that those things have happened together. It's not like, oh, look at all this healing that I have experienced. And now I will go study it and be a healer for other
Integrating Personal and Professional Growth
00:41:24
Speaker
people.
00:41:24
Speaker
And never the twain shall meet. It is the exact opposite. No, lead out of your own healing. Yeah. And it's very, it's an integrated thing. It feels like a, it feels, it's felt like as I've taken the classes, as I've done the preparation work, and as I've done this healing work, it's felt like a coming home to myself.
00:41:39
Speaker
Yes. And so much so that even in the work I do as a lawyer, this has shaped me and changed me. And my practice is in a totally different place because um I know that's how I show up now is, and it's kind of odd because people come to me as a lawyer and they want answers and they want fixes.
00:41:58
Speaker
And my answer often is, you know what? that We don't necessarily have them. We have laws, but guess what? They don't exactly apply wonderfully and perfectly all the time, or you have a different situation.
00:42:09
Speaker
yeah and People want me to fix stuff, and a lot of what I'm doing is shepherding through people through things that there's not an easy fix for. There may not even be a fix that they, you know, they did we're trying to find the best fix possible when there has been so much harm, so much rupture.
00:42:25
Speaker
Some ruptures are repairable and some are not. um And so i I find that I'm bringing myself with that counseling mindset into um my my, you know, my legal work. And I am mainly doing family law now because it's relevant there. Yeah. Me being, you know, having a counselor mindset as I'm not doing counseling with people.
00:42:46
Speaker
But my favorite thing for my clients to say is You know what you just said reminds me of something my counselor said. I'm like, oh, really? Huh? Okay. Well, let's go with that, you know. yes ah And that's a lot of that honesty about what what is broken and what can we fix and what can the law fix? Because people, when they've realized, okay, relationship is broken, they want the law and the legal system fix it all. set and And they want, you know, especially if there's been a power differential and a problems and all, people who have been disempowered, they want some power then.
00:43:16
Speaker
Yes. And this way of doing it. And sometimes we have to write the power balance. And I've had some experiences where I've definitely gotten to do that to help write a power balance. And we don't want this pendulum to swing all the other way. And now let's crush them because they crush me.
00:43:32
Speaker
I'm very resistant to that kind of, you know we're not going to play out the same dynamics in your separation of divorce that played out in the marriage. That's not going to help, particularly if you've got kids that you've raise. Very well put. How do we want to work together? So all that is to say the counseling piece, um I'm real excited about getting to work with couples in particular, where you know the wheels have fallen off, they don't know how to put them back on and they've tried stuff.
00:43:56
Speaker
They feel kind of at wit's end. I can sit in that pain, sit in that in that questioning, wondering, because I've been there. Yeah. um And the hope that I know came through, you know, God through his people.
00:44:11
Speaker
And the honestly, an inspiration to me too, is the work that you've done, you know, the work that you've done in your own heart and what what that healing work has done and and what that's enabled you to do as a healer for other people, too. So I'm kind of honored to join and come learn from you.
00:44:24
Speaker
Well, thank you for letting people get to know more of your heart. Thank you for being an intern at Nurture. I'm very excited. We will continue to do marriage intensives.
00:44:36
Speaker
We may end up doing some joint sessions and you'll have your own caseload on Friday afternoon, starting in September. And and we will keep people posted, but anybody can reach out to our assistant, Elise, or on the website if they or someone that they know might be interested.
00:44:57
Speaker
So thank you, Chris. We're excited to have you. Thank you for having me, Minion Master Wendy. Happy weekend, everyone.