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Becky Allender on Marriage, Voice, and Growing Through Every Season
50 Plays9 days ago
We had the best time sitting down with Becky Allender — writer, grandmother, co-founder of The Allender Center, and yes, longtime partner-in-life-and-love to Dr. Dan Allender. But make no mistake: Becky is a force in her own right. Her presence is warm, steady, and disarmingly honest. And for decades, she’s been a vital voice shaping the work that has impacted thousands through Dan’s teaching, writing, and the Allender Center’s mission.
In this conversation, Becky reflects on entering what she calls the final chapter — not with resignation, but with clarity, intentionality, and grace. She shares what it means to show up fully in marriage at this stage of life, especially as Dan focuses his last major professional efforts on the topic of marriage itself. Becky names what it’s like to be drawn more visibly into that work, to keep growing in her own voice, and to embrace the joy and ache of this season with open hands.
We also talk about parenting — the beautiful and brutal reality of reckoning with the ways we’ve missed the mark, and how to best engage when our adult children bring their stories back to us. Becky's example of listening with humility, resisting the urge to defend, and offering genuine curiosity is a masterclass in becoming more like Jesus. We discuss what it means to bless our grown children even when their lives and choices look different than ours did, and to trust that God is big enough to hold what we couldn’t.
This episode is honest, tender, funny, and rich with lived wisdom. Becky doesn’t offer easy answers — but she offers something better: a deeply human picture of love, courage, and grace that keeps unfolding across decades.
We’re so grateful for her presence, and we think you will be too.
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Transcript
Introduction to Becky Allender
00:00:01
Speaker
So today's episode features a conversation with Becky Allender, and I don't even want to start by saying she's Dan's wife, which she is, but she is in her own right, a woman with a really powerful presence.
00:00:17
Speaker
She's a gifted caregiver. We've been privileged to receive care from her in ah like a small group context. I love how she provides this foil to Dan, this additional commentary on the stories that he tells and tells so well.
00:00:31
Speaker
ah But really, what I'm was so captured by ah was just her humility.
Becky's Spiritual Journey
00:00:37
Speaker
And the is somebody who's wrestled with Jesus for a long, long time and is letting him meet her where she is and change her.
00:00:47
Speaker
ah You'll hear about kind of what that change has been, what it's what it's required, what it's cost, what it's looked like. But the joy that's fruited out of it is one of the things that's kind of most compelling. What do you say?
00:00:58
Speaker
Absolutely. And Becky is a woman who is clearly committed to growing until she leaves this earth. And that's, I think, what's been, you'll hear us talk about the podcast a little bit, why hearing her stories and Dan's are so inspiring. Partly it's because they're never done.
00:01:14
Speaker
They're never only talking about 10 years ago and 20 years ago. they have some powerful stories from then, but they're still in process. They're still learning about each other. And with a delight and a playfulness that is inspiring, they're learning about the breadth of God's mercy, the depth of God's mercy, and just how to show up and be an agent of that in the world. And it's it's super encouraging and inspiring.
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, so in the conversation, we talk some about marriage, some about what it means to find your voice, what it means to parent, and then let adult children find their voices with us.
00:01:52
Speaker
So we look forward to you tuning in. Hope it'll be an encouragement to everybody. God bless.
Becky Allender: Author and Partner
00:02:03
Speaker
We are delighted to be here today with Becky Allender. of Bainbridge Island, Washington, the wife of Dan Allender. So welcome, Becky.
00:02:14
Speaker
It's so great to be here, Wendy and Chris. Thanks for having me. I am so glad to see your face and be with you. So you are Dan's wife, but you are way more than Dan's wife.
00:02:27
Speaker
You are an author in your own right. So your book, Hidden in Plain Sight, came out a number of years ago. what do you remember what year it came out? It was November 2017. OK.
00:02:41
Speaker
OK. It was right after i started going out to Seattle. I went out that August for a story workshop. We recently had Rachel Clinton Chen on.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I was talking about that story workshop. And my experience there is the reason that I do what I do today. So i good make for i remember picking your book up really quickly, but I wouldn't have known it was potentially within a few months.
00:03:09
Speaker
who Okay. So you're an author in your own right. You've also joined Dan in a recent book, The Deep Rooted Marriage. Okay. Yes. Yes.
00:03:20
Speaker
And tell us a little bit, well, you can tell us anything you'd like to about yourself. I'd love the people to get to know you, but tell us a little bit about the trauma informed couples training that you are hoping this book sort puts a frame around.
Working with Dan in Couples Training
00:03:38
Speaker
Well, I think because I'm not a therapist and didn't get that degree, oh because I'm married to Dan and he loves teaching and training and trauma has been a big part of where God has led him in his life's work, that I was able to come alongside him and be a part of these things.
00:04:02
Speaker
marriage intensives, as well as some conferences and retreats. Yeah. So yeah. And that's where I've mainly encountered you as well. When we, think we came to Nashville right before pandemic and the coming out to Bellingham for, for the calls, the reconnecting. Oh yes. And gotten to sit with you and, and get care really, and just to get to know you, which has been been phenomenal.
00:04:28
Speaker
But so continue. What's that? Thanks, Chris. well your Your role has grown so much, it feels like. Well, it has. I used to be facilitating for the narrative-focused trauma care. And i Chris, you were always a person on the screen I liked looking at because oh you just had that kind face. And i so it's been so great that we've gotten to know both of you you know over the years.
00:04:51
Speaker
because for a while it's just all on the little screen. So it's been a joy. So yeah, I have been sort of thrust into this work with my husband. I've loved it. um It's been really ah ah privilege to...
00:05:07
Speaker
work intensely with four couples over two and a half days.
Finding Her Voice
00:05:12
Speaker
I think there's five group times and very validated to be sitting next to Dan, but also this is, he's in a, at a recovery route week right now in 1988, I went through the first recovery week.
00:05:26
Speaker
I don't think I knew that if you literally were here. I was the guinea pig. I was in the very first. Andrew was a nursing baby. So I didn't spend the night with the women, but it was nearby. And someone just asked Dan today at the recovery week.
00:05:42
Speaker
Well, how did that work out with Becky and your group? First they're like, she wasn't in your group, was she? Well, yeah, he was the only group leader. Oh my goodness. It didn't work out very well at all. It was total reenactment. Oh my gosh. I was so angry at him.
00:06:00
Speaker
And I'm like, I'm never going to be in a group with you again, which actually ah so kind of was true until these intensives. And and now it's um a whole new situation, of course, where I can see where he has been in the depths of people's sorrow for a long time. and and hears God and can connect the dots really well. So at times I i sit in awe, just amazed that I get to be a part of this, but I also have a voice in it as well.
00:06:34
Speaker
Well, I'd say, yeah, it's it's a rich voice. It's an impactful voice. If nothing else, just because it's great for Dan to have a foil, to have somebody who's like, I was there also. ah That's right.
00:06:47
Speaker
but Here's what it felt like for other people. And and we are that benefit to each other. I think we've been married 32 years, but we are still amazed at how we can perceive the same situation very differently, you know, from our own stories, from our own lenses, we'll surprise each other every now and then, even though we we've done a lot of work, we know about each other's stories, we'll still be like, how did you not see this or see that? And so having that other perspective, it is it can be maddening and exasperating, but it's also a good, helpful thing also. Particularly when you're counting, you know, challenges.
00:07:18
Speaker
If it's not between us, we're really, really good and helping, hey, there's more to it than this. The harder part is when it's about what we experienced. and so yeah Yeah, that curiosity, you know, when we were newlyweds, we didn't have any curiosity. We just had our own hearts that were being run over, you know. so yeah It's so wonderful to have these other tools in a different way.
00:07:44
Speaker
i I, you come to mind often, Becky, when we are having conflict because there've been a few stories. I'm assuming Dan is the one who said them when I took them in, but I remember one story where think somebody had called the house.
00:08:05
Speaker
I feel like this is an old, old, old story. Might've been a client, but Dan didn't want you to say he was home. And I might be mixing two stories.
00:08:17
Speaker
But in any event, you were like, yes, and he's right here. And Dan was clearly very angry. Well, you went into his office and started reading one of his books. And he came in and he was mad. And you said, oh, I'm just here reading what you say to do in situations that I'm in.
00:08:36
Speaker
Yeah, I remember that very well before there was caller ID. Yeah. Yeah. So that goes back way back. were married in 77. So 48 years.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah. I don't, you know, I must have just gotten so angry at that time. I needed anger and sometimes still now before I can actually say what I want to say.
00:08:59
Speaker
You know, unless you get yeah angry, I can't use my voice in a way that's what I really want to say. So I think we were both fired up that point.
00:09:10
Speaker
ah sure But um I did have the book Bold Love and I more or less put that as... and Hello, I'm doing what this book I think tells me to do. Nice. Well played. I totally did not do what he wanted me to do by setting the phone down and saying that he was nearby, you know.
00:09:34
Speaker
Right. Okay. You said something interesting I'd like to hear more about just then. You said, unless I was angry, I couldn't really access my voice. So I think, you know, there's, we all have stories around our voices and how easy or difficult it has been to use them on behalf of self and others. so what's been like your journey with using your own voice?
00:10:01
Speaker
Well, i I would say it's been a slow one, but I'm very grateful to be where I'm at now. I know there was a couple of years ago, i had a situation that I called someone and I was upset.
00:10:15
Speaker
And this person said, gosh, it sounds like you've got complex and anger, complex trauma. And I didn't know what this person meant, but hung up and then about six months later called this person again. And she's like,
00:10:31
Speaker
I think you have some complex trauma. So, you know, when you hear a word or a phrase and you never heard it before, and then all of a sudden it's everywhere. It's every yeah yeah every podcast. so I um actually started Zooming with a graduate of the Seattle School. And it's been so good for me to have time to talk with her. And her validation was, in one story, I'll get to your point.
00:11:01
Speaker
I was in first grade and my mom said, I can't pick you up on time today at ballet. just Just go to the lobby and wait there.
00:11:12
Speaker
Well, I had been called often that I was stupid and that I was dumb and that ah you know I really never wanted to bother my mother. And so I quit asking for help in a lot of ways at a young age.
00:11:28
Speaker
But I couldn't ask an adult where the lobby was because then they would know I was stupid. I didn't want anyone to know I was stupid. So I just started wandering.
00:11:42
Speaker
And so this therapist I have now is like, Becky, do you see how early in your life you were set up to not ask, to not have a voice? And then and then so it played out through...
00:11:59
Speaker
through and it still plays out through my life now. I have a lot more agency now to use my voice. I have a lot more awareness of that tenderness. And instead of shredding myself with fury, i can say, oh, okay, I'm allowed to say this right now.
00:12:20
Speaker
it's It's not like I really have to get angry in order to say it, but... It also has been a journey to to use my voice and then not feel stupid.
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. Well, and especially, so has it made it difficult? i mean, you're married to a a person who makes their living by bringing words to the world.
00:12:44
Speaker
in written form and in vocal form and obviously brilliant. I love his his academic journey, Dan's academic journey, he cracks me up. it's so It's such a lovely story, the whole thing.
00:12:56
Speaker
but Well, I was funding it, but thank you very much. That's right. but like It wasn't
Chris & Wendy on Marital Dynamics
00:13:01
Speaker
always funny. Right. right But what I'm saying is that he is is obviously brilliant. He was not the best student in high school. He had other activities, obviously, that he was devoting his creativity and entrepreneurial energy to.
00:13:13
Speaker
But he is clearly brilliant and has this voice. And so this picture of you alongside him and yet something there's some kind of spark or spunk in you still.
00:13:25
Speaker
That is, you know, you didn't just kind of become sort of a, nevermind I'm in the shadows, you know, i know that was hard fought. yeah um Yes. Well, and I think again, back to this therapist, she said, well, Becky, you had to marry someone like that.
00:13:41
Speaker
See, my parents were very vocal, both of them very big talkers. Okay. And so, um you know, it was quite, I was used to that role listening or laughing. Yeah. And so that, but yet then...
00:13:57
Speaker
you know, living on the planet Earth, you actually do want to show up. And that means a voice. So um it seemed like our sin in some ways fit together so beautifully, especially in the realm of the church.
00:14:12
Speaker
um because I could serve and provide a beautiful table or home for people to come and Dan could ask the most amazing caring questions. And it was it was fabulous until it wasn't. i That's the title of my book, Hidden in Plain Sight. you know i yeah I had to um come to grips with my own quietness.
00:14:40
Speaker
yeah and and break out of that. So I'm curious, what can i ask you question first, Wendy? Wendy was showing her copy, or if anybody's watching this video, they'll see, and it's got like paper, it's got like yellow stickies like throughout it and dog-eared pages.
00:14:57
Speaker
And this is actually like Wendy and I have a joke, she likes to read parts of books most of the time. She reads, you know, get the gist, but this one, there's no part untouched. yeah um What you remember being connectional or momentous about this or meaningful about this when, and especially now that you contextualize it to more like 2017, 18?
00:15:17
Speaker
I mean, I think the main thing that I took away was this idea of it was really easy to stay hidden by Dan's bigness.
00:15:27
Speaker
yeah And in some ways that worked for you until it began to dissolve you. But how did it resonate with you? I think the same thing. okay Yeah.
00:15:38
Speaker
So you have a common story situation. yeah What married to a long-haired, so what loud mouth. Right. Know it all. or yes Recovering know-it-all perhaps. Yes, yes.
00:15:53
Speaker
Well, and, you know, as a child, only daughter in the family and a lot of confidence Among my father and my older brother.
00:16:05
Speaker
and a lot of, I was definitely, I needed to be quiet and to the line. I'll just say that. that I needed to be a good girl and I needed to not make waves.
00:16:18
Speaker
And so I smiled a lot. And like you said, laughed. I laughed a lot. Oh, And then married my best friend i mean at 22. And we had met at 13. Wow.
00:16:31
Speaker
For most of that time. And i don't think I realized, well, certainly didn't realize I had a war with my voice. No. And did not realize that we would have a war letting both of our voices share the stage.
00:16:47
Speaker
And i was sort of, I didn't realize... how i I was, I basically, my story is, is a fortified by mother in a high conflict marriage relationship. I'm not sure that you remember, but I, I found my place to hide in plain sight in one stages, yeah behind podiums, speaking, singing, telling jokes, you know, whatever.
00:17:12
Speaker
So I didn't lack for words. But I've come to realize in the later, more recent parts of my healing journey, I was deprived of a voice in a meaningful way. It just didn't look the same. It wasn't, I didn't go silent. I just went chattery and, but theyre you know, I can talk around everything.
00:17:30
Speaker
And I'm constantly dancing away from things with my voice. it's not, I'm not speaking. But am I speaking what's in my heart? Being authentic? Am I using my words? In fact, this is, I'll share an NFTC level one moment that was powerful for me that that you mentioned.
00:17:47
Speaker
Very first time doing NFTC when you had done it before, I knew somewhat would of what to expect. I didn't know how it would impact me, but I knew this, I think this would be helpful. This would be meaningful for me. But one person told me after kind of we had some dynamics and how we show up in the group. And this guy said, Chris,
00:18:03
Speaker
I wanted to to you, you you use these you have these words and to me they're kind of like a cloak and a cloak can be really great. It can be used to give shelter. It can be used to hide when you need to. can be used you know to bring warmth, but it also can be a place to kind of hide.
00:18:20
Speaker
And so can you think, you and I've thought about that ever since of am I hiding? Am I cloaking with words? Is there more power? that's where I began to learn there's, and especially somebody, a lawyer paid to talk, but gosh, there is no class in law school about silence and how helpful that would be sometimes. Yeah.
00:18:36
Speaker
But it's actually really useful, really helpful in my counseling training. They emphasize that. So all that is to say, I didn't have a voice, but it it looked different. It was loud, but it still, there was, is that making sense when?
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, and yours also came with a lot of confidence.
Parenting with Independent Voices
00:18:54
Speaker
like Projected confidence, yes. Yeah, like Chris was valedictorian, full scholarship to Chapel Hill, full scholarship to University of Virginia Law School. lay Congratulations. Yeah, it's brilliant. I didn't know that. Confidence behind the words.
00:19:11
Speaker
And I did not have that confidence. it's very easy for me to reenact and presume that I relatively speaking was not very smart or wise.
00:19:25
Speaker
Like I should bow down to what he was saying. And when I have telling me that, but there was a difference in the way we perceived our own value. So like when we first started having conflict and again, it threw us for a loop because we've been best friends and we were best friends.
00:19:42
Speaker
We didn't fight. Like the first time we even had, after we started dating, we had discomfort. We're like, what is this? We didn't have any way relate to it, but we kind of just sort of shut it down. But conflict in our marriage showed up early on and we were unprepared, unwarned anything.
00:19:59
Speaker
But for me, I ramp up. Oh my gosh, somebody's going to leave. Somebody's upset. But then I get more verbal. Yes. Very early. You shut down. Right. You didn't know what you thought or felt for about three days sometimes. Oh, yeah.
00:20:13
Speaker
Which is madness for me because I'm like, I've been in that environment where somebody's just judging and hates me and I don't know why and i am I'll ramp up, I'll get bigger and smarter and more better performing and this will work.
00:20:28
Speaker
And eventually, because that's how I had that dynamic with my mom, eventually I would do something really crazy. when hes Oh, you're the best. And she would go into... you know a good mode. Yes. Which I didn't even, couldn't even name the ah knew I knew had, well, I didn't know I had any mom issues at that time. I knew I had, I had dad issues galore.
00:20:45
Speaker
But in in the early, early framing of my story, mom was the hero, dad was the bad guy. Okay. Boy, is it more complex than that, it turns out. Yes. I'm being verbal now, so. No, I'm really glad. No, I mean, i thank you, because that really gives me a great idea of that dynamic. Yeah. but And the mix that it was for us, number one, not expecting conflict. our We worked at the same church at the time we were, well, the year before we got married, while we were engaged.
00:21:16
Speaker
that right? Yeah. That was before we started dating. well Oh, no, that's right. We worked at the same church before. That's right. That's right. um But our our because we had worked at the same church, our premarital counseling was like, yeah some y'all are cute. Y'all are the church interns. but And we were in youth there. Yeah, we were in youth group together.
00:21:33
Speaker
It was like, oh, this is great. This is great. No preparation for do you have, you know, lots of issues that will come out. Yes. Yes. And in my case- No, you guys were perfect.
00:21:46
Speaker
so it's Exactly. Actually, that's a funny story too. One of my best friends at the time sang in our wedding and he sang this song. It a song called To Trust in Jesus. And he actually, while he was singing, he messed up the lyrics.
00:21:59
Speaker
He actually sang, supposed to be two separate pathways leading to glory. He actually sang, two perfect people leading to glory or something like that.
00:22:11
Speaker
Oh gosh, that's a lot of pressure. It was hilarious. I'm the only one in the whole church who knows what the actual lyrics are. And so I start dying laughing. but But in a way, although we were not said we were perfect people, we kind of would have thought, we're going to pretty good at this marriage thing. and Yeah.
00:22:29
Speaker
We really did think that. You know, one thing on a transition is just a little bit. So, you know, you get married and Dan's pretty clear about this in his books, but you learn to be married by being married.
00:22:43
Speaker
Right. Like it's like you you learn who you are and how good or terrible of a lover of other people you are. as you're in this intimate, most intimate relationship.
00:22:57
Speaker
Yes. And then you learn to parent as you parent. And so I have said so many times, like, why doesn't God give us like fake children? Like we're in the age of AI. So maybe now, maybe now people will get the benefit.
00:23:12
Speaker
But right, like you do, you parent and And, you know, how children raise their parents, I still recommend it frequently because it's its message is that in the process of parenting, you will learn how badly you need to be parented, ultimately by God, but where the holes are.
00:23:32
Speaker
yeah And so I'm thinking, you know, you're, you know, a few years into marriage, most of us, you begin to have children. you're both learning to be married and learning to be parents at the same time.
00:23:47
Speaker
And you, like we now have adult children who thankfully I think are mainly honest enough to say, guess what? You know, I'm For good and for hard.
00:23:59
Speaker
And so I just, I think I'm just curious, like what's your take how in the world do we learn to do both at the same time, Becky?
Balancing Spouse and Parent Roles
00:24:08
Speaker
Like it's a hard road there for few years, isn't it? Or longer.
00:24:11
Speaker
It's really hard. Oh my goodness. It's ludicrous that there there's not more training out there that everyone has to go through. I've learned so much from my daughter-in-law who's a Montessori instructor. Oh my goodness.
00:24:27
Speaker
So, um but yeah, back back when you're just married and you're just kind of bringing your own stuff to how you were raised to try and raise, it's it's nuts. Yeah, but thankfully we do have children that who are adults and and um yeah, they can bring their disappointments.
00:24:48
Speaker
yeah i i I did write that one chapter, I think, in the book about Amanda was going to be moving to New York, and so that was just our three children without their spouses.
00:24:59
Speaker
And it turned out to be a food fight as it just was like question telling us so many things that we did wrong. I took it way, way to heart rather than being wise, like undefensive.
00:25:15
Speaker
I'm going to use this again, my therapist said, Becky, knew what he was doing. He left you there alone to you know, hear all this stuff.
00:25:27
Speaker
Now that that's been almost 10 years ago. Yeah. And so recently over Mother's Day, our older daughter just ah had some pretty severe things to bring to me.
00:25:40
Speaker
This time around, I could say, Tell me more. ah and up and And oh, you're right. And go gosh, oh, that's awful. I don't remember, but oh, tell me. i want to, please.
00:25:56
Speaker
Tell me what your experience was. Yeah, yes. And to to not be defensive and just say, I'm so thankful that you have brought this up.
00:26:09
Speaker
because we will be hashing this over, you know, maybe for a lifetime, maybe not. But to have that openness that only by the grace of God, only for the forgiveness that we have through our Savior is, I mean, it's forgiveness all way to heaven, really.
00:26:31
Speaker
yeah And so I'm so thankful for... ah the growth I've had for someone listening to my story to be able to receive her words very differently.
00:26:42
Speaker
Well, that's a real gift. Can I can't say? Yeah. um I have either from I did recovery week a couple of weeks, years ago, I've done a couple other intensive type things. And I've seen the dynamic play out frequently.
00:26:56
Speaker
And I, by the time I was doing more of my deeper healing, but my parents had passed away. So I didn't have this temptation or this driver to worry about. But I've seen many as men in particular who have these revelations and are realizing this was worse than I thought, or I am harmed by this, or this is, this helps explain why I am now. And they want to, there's a strong urge to go and talk it out with the people who harm them or the people who neglected or who let harm happen.
00:27:25
Speaker
And Dan always gives a great caution of, Slow that roll. Don't go down. You want that instinct is so good and you want and you have this vision of, oh, and but i've I've seen several people who did not heed that advice and went and tried and they just got re-traumatized often because they got defensiveness, because they got you're remembering it wrong. Who is influencing you? All kinds of you know horrible type things. And it's doubly crushing.
00:27:53
Speaker
versus, you know, the gift that you gave and and what we hope we're doing. And I guess hearing you say it is encouraging, like, and you know, your your child's in their, what, you know, 30s, 40s. So it's not like this is their first time. 45. he has that helps me, you know, it it could happen in the future for us.
00:28:10
Speaker
And we want to have that spirit. Well, I think it has. It has some, yes. But I'm just saying, I'm just like, no, it may not be done. Yeah. Oh yeah. And try to be okay with that. Yes. You know? Yes. Yeah. That's the only thing I wanted to say is just what a gift.
00:28:23
Speaker
And you're you're a model. Yes. Something that we want to remember. How can we be receptive? Especially when we have argued and defended on other things. Yes. Right. But so what were going to say? Yeah. I was just thinking, you know, like...
00:28:38
Speaker
As Christians, we set out to raise these little people into largely Christians. And that's a good thing. Okay.
00:28:49
Speaker
And I think that sometimes we get a little misguided and it becomes all about the morality of particular things. Not I want to be permissive, right? And just let the kids raise themselves and do what they want.
00:29:04
Speaker
But i have found that a lot of times I'm asking myself the question, what did it mean then and what does it mean now to be a good mother?
00:29:18
Speaker
A good mother who loves Jesus and wants to represent Jesus to her children, with the hope that they will receive the invitation that he has.
00:29:30
Speaker
And that's a really hard question, you know, because it doesn't mean always that what comes out the other end is a person that's going to stand up in front of the church and give a testimony that everyone applauds.
00:29:45
Speaker
That's right. You know, and so think I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Like, what does it even mean to be a good mother, a God honoring, Jesus loving mother or father?
00:29:55
Speaker
You're saying at this stage? Well, then and now. Then they and now. Well, that that's a really good question. wow. wow You know, if we knew now what we didn't know then, yeah probably would have been a lot of things.
00:30:12
Speaker
yeah Less worried about a reputation within the church or, you know, all the things that Dan and I came out of the 60s and found Jesus in, you know, the but Jesus movement in the seventy s So,
00:30:32
Speaker
So we're all mixed up if we look at the circle that we went. And so, yeah, I just hope it will bring more grace. I just hope to have more compassion for the woman who I was thinking that I was doing things right, as well as more compassion to my children who were receiving the instruction that I gave them that probably was a little off kilter and sometimes completely off kilter. yeah And, and I, I think God is big enough. Like I don't have to worry about, mean, he's that big.
00:31:15
Speaker
yeah I think they're great adults in every way. And they're choosing to raise their families very differently. And I bless them. Yes. Can you mentor people in that? I know. I, I, yeah, I love who our, our children are. Pretty sure they'll listen this podcast and probably never will. It's probably a cringe idea to them. And so i I relax that now, but yeah, they, they, their families are going to look different from ours.
00:31:43
Speaker
And I'm trying to celebrate that. That's God's creativity. yeah yeah That's there. That's there was one of our children said, Hey, you did raise us to think for ourselves, right? Did you not think were going to actually do it? I'm like, well, kind of. I mean, you know, think for yourself as long as looks like me was sort of what was unbligating it. That was our youngest.
00:32:02
Speaker
And they came home from, I think it was ninth grade. And I was sitting in my little office and they were like, mom, mom, I've been thinking about this on the walk home.
00:32:13
Speaker
You taught us how to think. And that was really good, mom. And I'm like, thank you. I need an encouragement. Right. she was like um and and know it's hard because we do think. And we don't think everything you want us to think. And I'm like, I can honor that.
00:32:31
Speaker
I think I can love that. I was thinking too, so, you know, a lot of times what I get asked as I counsel children and or their parents is what's a good family devotion?
Family Devotions and Open Dialogue
00:32:42
Speaker
Like maybe I should be having more devotions. And as a young homeschool mom, it was all about discipling my kids, which I bless and doing devotions. And so we were up in Boston last weekend with our oldest daughter and her roommate.
00:32:57
Speaker
And I brought something up about this particular family devotional. And her friend, who her roommate, who just finished a master's in religion, was like, oh, my gosh, I hated family devotional. And I'm like, well, the one that stands out to me lately is I was reading the story of Abraham and Isaac going up to the mountain, and Abraham was being asked to sacrifice him.
00:33:23
Speaker
And our kids are loquacious. Well, two of them. The other one is equally smart, but does not feel the need to interject herself. So the others are like, they've got questions and commentary galore.
00:33:37
Speaker
So I'm reading and all the comments and questions are flying and I'm like, stop, I'm reading the Bible, reading the Bible. And so, you know, because I needed to get through to the point.
00:33:48
Speaker
And the point that day was we need to have so much faith because look what God will do. And so the youngest, Ella, said, wait a minute, when I finally let them speak.
00:34:00
Speaker
Wait a minute. Did you just read? They got told this dad to kill his son. And I'm like, well, I think that's what I read. But did hear the answer?
00:34:11
Speaker
And she's like, that is crazy. And more this discipleship would have come, I believe firmly, if I had let that question linger, because now those are the comments and clarifying questions and conversations we have as a family.
00:34:30
Speaker
Like, I do believe God is big enough that it is not lost on him. But this was a pretty crazy ask of Abraham. And the Isaac probably had trauma from that moment on.
00:34:43
Speaker
Yes. Okay. In Isaac in a story group later, there had been such a thing going, so how did you put set the scene for us? What was it like going up that mountain? Did you see the knife? Were you aware?
00:34:56
Speaker
and How much fear did your body feel? And what kind of a father did he become? And so just, I think again, so much of it is, do I as their mother, does Chris as their father believe that God is big enough to wrestle with?
00:35:13
Speaker
And then there is not a singular point I have to lead them to, but rather to the bigness of him and the lavishness of his grace and compassion. And a lot more in that vein.
00:35:27
Speaker
And so, yeah. what What do you think? I think that's fabulous. Yeah, I think that would have relieved so much pressure yeah just that whole idea. God is bigger and this is crazy.
00:35:40
Speaker
And you know, if you ever hear a voice telling you to cry, don't listen it. So what? So mom, what if, you know, I just told me to take my father off. Yeah. But wait a minute. We we would, we would say, hold on.
00:35:53
Speaker
That's what we say. We're all going to the hospital now. So let's lose it. Right. Right. And so, yeah, it's, and I do have compassion on that young mother that I was. i wanted so much for my children. You were showing up and giving connection.
00:36:12
Speaker
you were having your own renaissance of learning. Yeah. Because you've often spoken of that's when you really learned to love learning for learning's safe. Yeah. By learning with them. Yes. And yeah that part did take hold. You know, that's where the learning to think and learning to...
00:36:26
Speaker
And also stuff I think I was learning too, that I had those same questions about God. Yes. I was too afraid to ask them because I did not belong in the community that meant so much to me.
00:36:40
Speaker
And so I also was afraid I was just so obviously wrong that I needed to just stamp belief on. And it's not that I don't believe I'm a deep lover of Jesus, but I feel it's healthy to have questions.
00:36:56
Speaker
I want to see if we can spend some time talking about the marriage book and particularly in marriage.
Co-authoring with Dan
00:37:02
Speaker
ah And specifically, I'm curious, you know, what was it like to write with Dan? Like this is the first book where your voices are in there. I know you and Lisa wrote those sort of separate sections, but you all are conceptualizing this together.
00:37:18
Speaker
choosing what stories to tell. How was that process different? what ah but What was it like, you know, at this stage where you are now to do that? Uh-huh. It was, well, I'm very thankful that Lisa and I were able to write a ah bit of our story.
00:37:37
Speaker
i've After having written a book of my own, it seemed so small. And so i I don't want to sound ungrateful, but there's so much more that I i thought of that. I thought of that. Yes.
00:37:52
Speaker
Yes. Keep going. And so, i'm I mean, they're the two therapists and then that was the contract. But no, it felt really... really good And I think how i I do love the book that Dan did tell a lot of stories in his part about me. So that was able to be the last story. I really didn't, I thought i didn't act very well at all. And so I even think that's good because none of us can always do it right and be on the ah you know the good side of an argument or something. So i was very glad to be included.
00:38:34
Speaker
Well, that's one of the things that we found most beneficial about both you and Dan and the cause as well. you are still in process. Every time we've been with you at any kind of workshop or anything, you're not telling always 10 and 20 year old story. You're telling last month, the conversation about the kitchen went like this and it didn't go well.
00:38:58
Speaker
And I can't tell you how encouraging that is because there's times when we're like, we've been married for 30 years. Why have we not fixed this crap yet? Why do we still get triggered?
00:39:09
Speaker
Get stuck. We now both have training. How do we how can that possibly happen? But you all are out there modeling. Daggum it, we're writing the book on this and we're helping other people do it, but you've you've got to hear this.
00:39:21
Speaker
You do not reach blissful nirvana. You do not just arrive one day. in Which I don't like very much. I want to reach blissful nirvana. I think you want me to reach it more than you want. That's true.
00:39:31
Speaker
That would be great. but Right. yeah know let Speak to that dynamic a little bit in terms of how have you all grown in the ability to give each other space and to to navigate two really complex trauma stories together. Yes.
00:39:48
Speaker
Yes. Well, first of all, we're in our 70s and it's ah very clear to us that our time is short, shorter than it's ever been.
Sustaining Kindness in Marriage
00:39:59
Speaker
And it's also very clear to us that the older you get, the more faculty you lose, not only you physically, but mentally. i mean, you're just not at the top of your game anymore.
00:40:12
Speaker
And so the kindness that I feel like I can offer to Dan as well as he can offer to me in light of being the two same sinners still married together, you know, that I'm trying to have a kinder voice because often when I'm triggered, I don't have a kind voice at all. All that goes out the window.
00:40:39
Speaker
And I know that there are people that can say really hard things with a kind of voice. So that's my desire to grow in that way. And there's also just at this stage of life, the older we each get, that I like and the understanding that it's shorter than ever and It's better than ever.
00:41:01
Speaker
Like this is better than ever. I'm amazed at the beauty outside our windows. Like I am noticing because this is so wonderful to be alive.
00:41:15
Speaker
And many people my age have not made it this far. So I think that posture of... Like I'm missing Dan, at least for their recovery yeah yeah that the The facilitators would stay at our house and Dan and I would be in the same bed.
00:41:31
Speaker
still miss him when he's gone. And that yearning is is good, but it's hard. It hurts. so So there's even imagination of a new place next year where I can go as well.
00:41:45
Speaker
So I think there's joy. i think you grab the joy. yeah have to. So as we begin to close, Dan has been clear that one of the legacies that he would like to end on is that of marriage.
00:42:00
Speaker
And I know that y'all are investing time in the next year training therapists in working with couples when there has been trauma at play before the marriage, likely during the marriage.
00:42:15
Speaker
But what are your hopes as far as where you want to lead married couples?
Hopes for Couples' Resilience
00:42:20
Speaker
a Well, i my hopes are that I will actually hear Jesus a bit more, that I can hear the Spirit, that I don't sit quietly and let Dan do that, that I can actually you know be alongside other people as an advocate for them, also you know ah a prayer warrior.
00:42:46
Speaker
I think I just see goodness ahead. And I didn't realize this, but the last few years he said, well, I always wanted to end my memory. on marriage. I like, you did? didn't know that back in the day, but I wonder if you do that. I mean, yeah, like that's, that's amazing. And who I hadn't, and then maybe I wouldn't have wanted that early on in our marriage, like, oh no, I can't do that.
00:43:14
Speaker
Now of it's just like, oh, that's really good. the more that we're together is really a good thing at this stage. What do you want to give married couples? I want to give them hope.
00:43:27
Speaker
I want to say, you know, go for it. Get out what you need to have. We've been, Dan's been teaching, training counselors for like 45 years.
00:43:38
Speaker
That's three different schools. that's That's like, you know, in the beginning, it was nine months to get a degree in biblical counseling. Isn't that crazy? Every year, like the students, the one in their...
00:43:52
Speaker
spouses and children were like our church. They were everything to us. And it wasn't sustainable. But i I think what I'm wanting to say a beautiful couple decided to divorce. They had four teenagers.
00:44:11
Speaker
And later on, she said, wish I'd had more faith. I wish I had had more faith. And so I think that's what I want to end.
00:44:24
Speaker
I mean, some marriages are meant to to end, but there might be a lot of marriages out there that the spouse afterwards says, I wish I had had more faith.
00:44:36
Speaker
And so I hope that that calls people forth to find another couple or find a therapist or a story guide because it it's it's a really big deal when a couple decides not to stay together.
00:44:54
Speaker
And ah it hurts. It hurts other people for a very long time. Yeah. And I think that it's so important that couples not feel alone because we also need to borrow hope hearing, oh you too.
00:45:12
Speaker
You have been here even yesterday. You know, like it is not shameful to be where we are. That God is of redemption, right? And of making things rise from ashes. Right.
00:45:28
Speaker
That was one of the saving grace is when we did first get married and we experienced this. Two things. One, we got into a ah Bible study of other couples that were in law school the same time.
00:45:39
Speaker
And there was a couple that had been married a couple years later and they're like, oh, you fight? Yeah, of course you fight. like we're at Like, I've never seen that end well because of divorce and everything. and And they didn't fight well at all in their family. yeah And so for minute, like you can learn to fight well. Like, thats say at least at the beginning, that's not enough, but yeah at least it was something to say, okay, we're not crazy, but it's completely messed up. And the other thing was, you there were Christian musicians that started singing more authentically little bit at that point in time. I was more drawn to...
00:46:09
Speaker
where there were some honesty and saw him or Stephen Curtis Chapman singing about echoes of careless words and slamming doors. I'm like, what? Stephen Curtis Chapman, who everybody thinks their music is great. Yeah. they have fight Okay.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah. it's not crazy. We're not crazy. And then it's a long journey to curiosity. Well, but, but why are we wired? How are all? Why? not Yeah. React. Great words. Really good words. Yes. Chris.
00:46:35
Speaker
Yes. Well, we are thankful for you, Becky. We're thankful for Dan, but we are thankful for you and the presence you bring. And, you know, when I first started going out to Seattle, i think it was you with Heather Lukert and y'all ran prayer times in the chapel in between teaching and small groups.
00:46:58
Speaker
yeah And you would sing, you would pray. i would go and lie under your a weighted blanket on the floor and listen to y'all sing. And it was so healing for my soul just to be in proximity. And so the presence that you have brought to Dan, to the Allender Center, to the Seattle School, to the world, to couples like us,
00:47:25
Speaker
is phenomenal. And we thank you for that. So we love him, but we really appreciate Becky too. We're we're big fans of the package deal. Yes.
00:47:37
Speaker
Oh, Wendy and Chris, thank you so much. Those words mean so much to me. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for joining us. Oh, a pleasure. Have a fabulous time welcoming Dan back home with your family.
00:47:51
Speaker
And um we're just excited for our listeners to have had this time with you. So take good care. And I'll say thanks for being that guinea pig in 1988. And giving feedback and sticking with it. And because I think it is some of the most phenomenal care that's out there.
00:48:09
Speaker
I have the fondest memories of my time two years ago. And I feel bonded with the people I was there with and the team. hundred um I'll say this, Dan has democratized and used this power, so like shared it. Yes. And it's bringing up other people and we are just, we're grateful to be the dentist. Thank you. yeah Thank you for your influence and encouragement.
00:48:33
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you so much. Yes.