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Rachael Clinton Chen (Part 2): Harmers and Healers
65 Plays27 days ago
As our lives grow more complex, so does our faith. The black-and-white answers we once held tightly often lose their grip when we find ourselves sitting beside hospital beds, walking through grief, or holding space for the pain of others.
In this second half of our conversation with Rachel Clinton Chen, we talk about what it means to grow a faith that’s big enough to hold suffering — our own and others’.
If you’ve ever felt shaken by disillusionment, unsure how to trust again, or wondered what love really looks like when power has been misused — this episode offers story, clarity, and hope. Healing doesn’t always come through having the right answers. Sometimes, it begins with letting go of certainty and choosing to stay curious about who God really is.
Connect with Rachael:
@rachaelclintonchen
theallendercenter.org
Learn more about Nurture Counseling:
@nurturecounselingnc
nurturecounseling.net
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Transcript
Introduction to Faith and Personal Growth
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back. um You're about to hear the second part of our conversation with Rachel Clinton-Shinn. And in this conversation, we do a few different things.
Evolving Relationship with God
00:00:11
Speaker
And one of the ones that is meaningful to me is we talk a little bit about how our relationship with God is free to change over time as our own lives become more complicated.
00:00:25
Speaker
Yeah. So was thinking a lot about when I first came to faith, I was content with more black and white, simple answers. And those answers could not provide the sturdiness I needed as I sat around hospital beds or in hospice rooms with loved ones or with hurting children for whom the world seemed to be ending.
00:00:52
Speaker
And those were the places that I needed to learn to dig into a God who is sturdy and was not afraid to speak directly to me.
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah,
Scriptures in Personal Trials
00:01:04
Speaker
it was leading us to have a conversation at dinner just as we were reflecting on this particular episode, how the idea that our understanding of Scripture changes as we grow, I mean, that ought to be pretty much axiomatic and and and not really controversial because there are different aspects of Scripture that become more meaningful right when you've had experience. Like I used to say Psalm 23, yay, though I walk through the valley shadow of death.
00:01:31
Speaker
I probably recited it dozens of times before knowing anything about what what is the valley of the shadow of death. What the heck does that mean? What does death look like? and right like i I clung to it in second grade. My teacher had the class say it as a collective every morning alongside the Pledge of Allegiance. And I had not lost anyone I loved.
00:01:54
Speaker
Right, right. Or some of the other Psalms just about let the bone, Psalm 51, which was a meaningful Psalm to me, I think even as early as college, but let the bones that you have crushed rejoice really was, was, was not, that didn't resonate. It didn't register until i experienced things where it felt like, okay, this is something akin to bone crushing.
The Duality of Faith and Institutions
00:02:16
Speaker
this grief, this pain, this agony, whatever it is, for me, some things involving job loss, involving relationship, stress and trauma, some different things where I was out of words, I was out of tools, I was out of of even, it felt like scripture I could apply.
00:02:34
Speaker
And we get Paul saying in other places, the Spirit intercedes for us with groans that words can't express. Again, what a lovely saying that was until experienced Until I had nothing left and I was desperate. I remember driving down the road groaning myself at times. Yes. i remember yeah and And then just knowing that that is what Jesus was actually doing on my behalf brought me comfort.
00:03:02
Speaker
later in life like it never had when i was young i remember experiences of getting in the car and just screaming and just kind of just wailing just like and nobody's there to hear it except i hoped god um and i had some reason to believe that god might listen to such things because people i was songs i was listening to or sometimes preaching i was hearing was saying yes you can groan and wrestle with god So in this particular episode, Rachel really dives deeper into what what some of her wrestling and individual experiences led her to.
00:03:34
Speaker
and And what I love is she makes kind of a transition to talking about, in the first episode, it's a lot about the complexity of an individual story and how as we process stories of harm, either as Winnie and I do that with people that we sit with or as what we've done in our own stories, the complexity that we have to come to hold that we received care And sometimes the best care that we got came from the same hands that delivered harm or that were
Disillusionment and Personal Growth
00:03:58
Speaker
neglectful or were not there. are we are Things don't get less complex as you process your story. They always, at least my experience, is they get more complex. Wow, there's this good and this bad, and they both were formative.
00:04:11
Speaker
Well, and I would say we are all of us, both healers and harmers. Yes, yes. And so in in the second part of this conversation with Rachel, then she turns it also ah in the direction of thinking about that. Is that true also institutionally? Is that also true that the same faith traditions and or people of faith and or church institutions or denominations that have both brought truth and brought goodness and brought us growth and understanding of Jesus and and maybe introduced us to Jesus also may have caused harm in different ways, also may have contributed to or or provided cover for abusers and perpetrators to um to cause harm from within the faith. And what does that do with your faith? And and how complex is that?
00:05:02
Speaker
And so that's a great direction that this conversation is going to go. She's got some good words in there about thinking through discernment. If you are turning everything upside down and trying to figure out what does all this mean, that doesn't have to mean an abandonment of what's yeah good and what's true when you believe. and that's certainly been true for us.
00:05:19
Speaker
It just means, I think, a reassessment of who God is and who I am with him. So thanks for tuning in. Enjoy.
00:05:33
Speaker
That was also shortly after... I would say at least on a political in the political landscape, you know something of Christian nationalism started coming onto the scene. We weren't calling it that. It's not anything new.
00:05:46
Speaker
yeah It's not even anything new like long before the United States became an ethos. This kind of fusion of empirical power with religion yeah that like just muddies the water in a way that you'll just, you have to say, I don't know, God died at the hands of empire. I don't know if like empire's ever going
Spiritual Journey and Understanding Privilege
00:06:03
Speaker
to be the way. But I love can honor our multiple attempts to make it the way throughout the history of at least humanity.
00:06:11
Speaker
Let's put it kindly that way. But that it was so it was a time when i was even dealing with my own disillusionment of people who introduced me to God, who helped me memorize scripture about who we love and how we treat people and protecting the stranger and the widow and the orphan and being people who are known by our love. And all of a sudden,
00:06:34
Speaker
I don't know God becoming somewhat different. Christianity looking. I mean, there's a lot of memes right now from like my generation being like, what radicalized you? And it's I listened to the maning of the church and listen to. yes I took you at your word. yeah And so I think there was just a really for me beautiful and continued to be liberating collision of to whom much is given, much is required. so Almost like, all right, Rachel, I've spent these years bringing a lot of healing to you.
00:07:04
Speaker
There's always going to be more healing. You have this education. You have this platform. You have this deep understanding of the ways in which trauma and abuse impact our bodies, our hearts,
Storytelling and Spiritual Abuse
00:07:16
Speaker
and our minds.
00:07:17
Speaker
yeah And i think for me, here's the example I give. I would share my stories at the Allender Center, these stories of the church and some of the particular harm. So many women, a lot of white women, but not just white women, would come up afterwards and be like, oh my gosh, you told my story.
00:07:37
Speaker
And at first I was like, wow, what a coincidence. Like this got it so cool. But as it kept happening, all of a sudden I had to reckon with, it's pretty universal. This is big. This is bigger than just like my particular story. And that that led to so much work around that.
00:07:53
Speaker
understanding my identity as a white woman. Yes. Understanding my identity, yes, as a white woman who grew up in the Bible Belt in Oklahoma and what like regional cultural socialization mean. Understanding more of the story of this nation and looking more deeply at purity cultures, not just the way we've talked about purity culture, true love ways, but just this notion of who gets to be sure and who's not and what are those boundary lines and how we define it. Knowing that Jesus really came on the scene and turned every false so but binary on its head, right? Like it's disrupting them, dismantling them. And so, yeah, I do feel like it's the time is now to take a look at way I've talked about it is like a framework of spiritual abuse, which is really just when either people
00:08:45
Speaker
In authority and spiritual authority, whether it's a pastor, it can play out in a family system, right? With parents, it can play out. I mean, I see that a lot with, like can I can't remember his name, but like the shiny, happy people, Bill Gotham. That was such a family oriented yeah Christian movement. It wasn't as much about faith communities as it was family systems. It play out in...
00:09:07
Speaker
school systems or non-profits. They can't really play out anywhere, but just this, what happens when religious authority or spiritual authority is leveraged to manipulate, to control, to violate, to exploit?
00:09:21
Speaker
And again, Any form of abuse can happen in more subtle ways or more yeah extreme ways. It can happen with less intentionality or more intentionality. So it's, again, this is why stories matter, particularity matters, relationships matter, because you can just kind of throw a label up on something that's not actually going to help you get into the why and the how and where do we go from here.
00:09:46
Speaker
So i right trying to give people categories and critical thinking skills to really discern. Because if you are in the presence of human-sized people who will make mistakes and aren't perfect, but who are seeking to bring ah kind of a Christianity or a spirituality,
00:10:05
Speaker
that honors your personhood, then you're not going to feel terrified, shit full of shame, powerless. And if you make one wrong move, you're out or you're cut off from God or you're cut off from community or you're going to be humiliated and exiled.
Redefining Personal Faith
00:10:23
Speaker
so Right. And I think for me, the journey kind of started with when I was beginning to understand my story, I'm not responsible for saving God's reputation.
00:10:34
Speaker
or making him victorious, right, by me being okay and me being unflinching and suffering. But I realized that's what I was doing. I was trying to show him off well as if that was what I was here to do.
00:10:47
Speaker
And I think as I've continued to be formed, a lot of what I've learned is He is holding on to me more than I ever need to scramble to find the right way to hold on to him or to bind people's consciences that the only way they can find him is through a certain way of thinking or believing or that's right.
00:11:13
Speaker
That's right. That it's really so much not about me. I am here called to love and to find who he is, like to learn and discover who he is and let that be what I bring to the world.
00:11:26
Speaker
But I find myself less interested in telling anyone what to do I mean, ethically, I'm bound as a counselor anyway. So there's that. But past that, like, I'm just overwhelmed by the vastness of God and the unspeakable nature of the love of Jesus. That's really all of God.
00:11:50
Speaker
i don't have a lot of, it's got to look this way. Yeah, and I mean, ultimately, for me, it comes down to what Jesus said. What's the most important commandment? yes Love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself. That's what the whole of the law and the prophets, which is more for us, as would have been like most of the Old Testament, stands these two things. Yes.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I actually think God is far more concerned with how we are loving God um with our whole personhood and how we are loving those in our midst.
00:12:27
Speaker
yeah And yeah, so it's, yeah, ethics become important. how we love and how that bears fruit. And yes even when you look at the Old Testament and the New Testament, God is so much more concerned with economics and exploitation of economics than almost anything else.
00:12:45
Speaker
Why? Because it has the most to do with how you are capable of loving your name, others, loving creation, and being like in good, right relationship with others Does that mean there's not a place for justice other things? No, but even the biblical nature of justice is so often so much more restorative than I think we could ever possibly imagine or live out.
Self-love in Faith Context
00:13:11
Speaker
And I say that as someone who's very Italian and I want vengeance against everyone.
00:13:18
Speaker
Like, I just yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Because and what's so sad is if we create these very rigid, this very rigid sense of, oh, it's about moral behavior. It's about these certain things.
00:13:30
Speaker
No one passes the litmus test. That's the whole point. That's right. That's right. Like why we need Jesus. That was right. yeah That yeah limit is true. Right. yeah No one passes it. No one.
00:13:41
Speaker
Right. Right. Well, part of what struck me is both of you guys were talking, and this is delightful even just to get for me to see you guys interact and talk about this because you all were so steeped in it. And I feel like I'm sort of a baby still, but I'm learning by I know how Wendy's transformed, how she came back from Seattle that time and so many other times. That was compelling to me.
00:14:01
Speaker
And the thing I want to connect the dot to what you just said is love your neighbor as yourself, but oh, how crippled our love of self has been in the church. Because there's somewhere in there, some of the messaging gets twisted to, along with you really matter, God knows you, but don't be selfish.
00:14:18
Speaker
Don't love yourself too much. Right. I tell a story about a particular caregiver of mine. I used to tell this as a good story. And what a wise thing. I now see it, oh no, it's a weapon of harm.
00:14:29
Speaker
This person was saying, you think you're so great. You think you're so wonderful. And this parentalish figure, I'll say. And it was supposed to be my caregiver. You think you're all that. You think you're great. And I said, well, no, I actually don't. I think I'm crap and nobody likes to know I'm terrible.
00:14:43
Speaker
And this person said, well, it doesn't matter because they're both self-centered. and And for a while I thought, oh my gosh, she convicted me. That was right. I'm being so selfish. I'm only focused on me.
00:14:54
Speaker
But as I look back on it and I contextualize it to other harm that this person did, I'm like, that just robbed me of having a self. Like basically, they're well where do I land?
00:15:04
Speaker
And I got confused with this idea of we're supposed to lay down our lives. Well, right to do that voluntarily and have it be meaningful, you got to know what your life is and have it and some sense of value. if you And so there's this The love of self that that you all have described is the ability to be honest about what you've experienced.
00:15:24
Speaker
And it's not loving to say, yeah, that happened, but not big deal. That happened, but works all things according to good. I'm so glad. No, love requires honesty.
00:15:36
Speaker
and integrity and to say, no, these things happen and they were harmful and I'm going to explore how they how they affected me. Yeah. And then that's what gives rise to, oh my gosh, other people are being affected like this too.
00:15:48
Speaker
I want to help set them free also. What you guys have both spoke to and live out of. Yeah. Well, night it's exactly what you're saying. This is why I know you both have already heard me talk about
Depth of God's Love
00:15:57
Speaker
this so many times, but I'll just always come back to it. like This is why I love what Paul talks about in Romans 8, because this language of there's no condemnation for those who are in the spirit and you're not bound to fear.
00:16:09
Speaker
and shame, like you're adopted as a child of God. This really, what you're saying, Wendy, like really pushes against some idea of God as, look, you have your basic needs met, deal with it. Like how, be grateful you gruffly. Suck it up, power through. No, like you're children of God and in joint heirs with Jesus and you get to cry out, Abba Father, yes like Papa. Like for so many of us as parents, we would, if the way we parented is like,
00:16:38
Speaker
Okay, you have a house, you have food. Don't ask anything more of me. Yeah. yeah Like how we would probably go to jail. You know, like we love our kids. We want like when they fall down and they hurt themselves. Like you want to be a presence that says like it's okay to be comforted. Like you're going to hurt. You're going to hurt a lot more in this light. You get to be comforted and you get to be strengthened.
00:16:59
Speaker
And exactly what you're saying, Chris. Because so often when we talk about that's why I wrote that paper, you know, like what is God doing? What is God sacrificing? And Jesus speaks so much to privilege, right? There's something of like laying down privileges in times when in the economy of God,
00:17:19
Speaker
Yes. Like we don't have to live as though there's a kind of scarcity that we know is true in this world. Like we get to lay down our lives in a different kind of expectation. Yeah. That life is possible, that there could be more and maybe not always on this side of things, but it absolutely right. Like if there's not a.
00:17:42
Speaker
kind of personhood to actually choose that. yeah It's actually just a form of self-annihilation. Yeah. I love that you use the word privilege in context with that because I hadn't even thought about that. i do some ah related work. Oh, yeah. You know, just like... I've done some of that in the legal space and all, but I was just working on a workshop recently. And because of the times we're in my client was thus other saying, we're going to maybe not use the word privilege right now because it's going to trigger people to, there's backlash against it, which is messed up. But that verse that brought to you brought to mind was, Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
00:18:21
Speaker
That's right. But instead laid down his life. But it is true. He had equality with God.
Faith Beyond Suffering
00:18:26
Speaker
That's all the privilege there is. all that That's a different kind of humming down. yeah right Literally, like he was the definition of all the privilege there is. Literally, yeah i could call down angels from heaven and blow everybody out of the water. Okay.
00:18:39
Speaker
That's all the power there is. But I'm not going to do that. He did not grasp it. He let go of it. And that was part of the whole mission. He had died and he suffered so that many sons and daughters could be brought to God.
00:18:53
Speaker
Whoa. Yeah. And what kind of suffering love like actually had a different, like an even more like potent power to turn death on its head. If we say that's true. And I, again, so I come back to Romans eight because Paul doesn't say suffering doesn't exist. Paul's suffering is so severe creation is crying out.
00:19:12
Speaker
yeah Like you're crying out. We're all crying out. for something more restorative. And this verse that I love, that's right before the one that you quoted, Chris, that everyone quotes in tragedy, like, well, God will work all things for the good.
00:19:24
Speaker
Right, right, right. Yeah, okay, we hold on to that promise because God is a good God who's going to turn all of our ashes into beauty. But right before that, God says, and when you don't know how to pray, when you can't find the words, when the suffering is so severe, yeah,
00:19:40
Speaker
That you are just laid flat. Or you're anxious and you're taken out of your prefrontal cortex, however you want to look at it. Like the spirit groans with language. Like the spirit intercedes for you. The spirit is still at work on our behalf.
00:19:53
Speaker
Even when, like in so many religious contexts, we've been told, well, you just didn't, you obviously didn't pray enough. You didn't have enough faith. You were too self-centered. So God brought this thing to teach you a lesson. It's like now when this when we're, when we don't know how to pray,
00:20:10
Speaker
Because of our weakness, because of our suffering, because of our confusion, because of our humanity, like the spirit is interceding on our behalf. And then this little passage ends with this whole book end of, so then what could separate us from the love of God and Christ Jesus? Like nothing. There's literally not even death, yeah not demons nor angels, like nothing in this world, nothing in the universe could separate us from the love of God.
00:20:35
Speaker
That's a very different story. foundational orientation, then can't let people know I'm suffering because it will reflect poorly on God. on god Or if I am suffering, I'm supposed to just endure because Christ suffered.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yes, that's Godly. Thank you for your pastoral heart. So I want to clarify one thing I said, and then I want to have you tell us the offerings you've created at the Allender Center for this kind of thing.
00:21:04
Speaker
So when I said I'm growing less inclined to tell people what to do, I do not mean I'm throwing away justice, but more that I am less interested in binding their consciences about what I believe God is more narrowly potentially saying.
00:21:21
Speaker
I mean, I am in my, to be clear, criminal minds era, and I love watching Dr. Reed and Gideon and Elle take them down. Okay, so I'm like, there's this bad guy on the loose.
00:21:34
Speaker
They're figuring out and profiling him, and they're taking him down. And I'm like, yes, he's in jail. He's put away. So I'm for justice, but I am not for me interpreting how God is choosing to act in another person's life.
00:21:49
Speaker
in a particular moment, other than to help them understand the vastness of him and the amazing quantity of his love. So I just wanted to clarify, I'm not an anarchist where no one gets to.
00:22:02
Speaker
Well, and I think what I heard you saying is Like we have to stop to have a lot of humility. And again, let love be our primary orientation because yeah we see a lot in scripture where Jesus is like, you thought you were the one worthy of judging
Humility and True Faith
00:22:18
Speaker
the other. And I'm telling you, you missed it.
00:22:20
Speaker
You really missed it. And actually like, you're the one who's been perpetrating harm or you're the one who missed an opportunity. but I just feel like, yeah, I'm with you on that. My buddy and I do workshops and one of them is about dealing with crazy making people, larger life personalities. We call it don't let the jokers drive you batty.
00:22:37
Speaker
And we use the Batman films with Christian Bale as a metaphor. Like, how do you regulate yourself? How do you manage? And we always end it. We've been talking about jokers and how they're crazy and they drive crazy. At the end, we say, be careful.
00:22:49
Speaker
You might be the joker somebody else is thinking about. That's true. Hold that carefully. Don't just sit back and go, all these terrible people. Yes. We always have to. And to me, that's the hallmark of how you know you're dealing with somebody who's on a journey trying to be authentic and have integrity.
00:23:03
Speaker
Can they say, whoops, missed it there, dropped it there. Thank you for bringing me that feedback, whatever. When that's not present, I get a little nervous. I'm like, wait a minute. If you're not, you don't need the feedback. Whoa.
00:23:14
Speaker
Well, and I'll say this and then I'll tell you about the offerings. Yes. There's a lot of, people we hear of this language of the fruit of the spirit. And that's pretty simple. And there's a lot of people who would not fit a lot of Christians categories of who belongs in God, who bear tremendous fruit of the spirit.
00:23:34
Speaker
And there's a lot of people who claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior, who bear very little fruit of the spirit. That's a good word to it. just think there's a lot of mystery to the ways in which the kingdom of God is unfolding.
00:23:46
Speaker
yeah And I try to hold that true to myself. yeah Well, thank you for the invitation to mystery. yeah i will say that when I've gotten to hear your teaching, that has been what's come through. Like your marvel and wonder at, isn't this a great God? And doesn't he do these...
00:24:04
Speaker
crazy and and inexplicable things, but there's a joy underneath the it underneath it that Dan models as well that's so infectious.
Joyful Teaching and Healing
00:24:13
Speaker
This is hard stuff. We're going to deep, deep, hard places with people, but also God is present in a whimsical way Not in a making light way, but in a can we have whimsy and joy at the same time that real deep work is happening and strongholds are being taken down and it is painful.
00:24:31
Speaker
Yes. is that But I appreciate what you bring to that. that I associate you with that sort of that energy, that hopefulness that that I think just radiates and I really appreciate it. Yes. So tell us, you've got a couple of webinars, there's a story workshop, and you've created a curriculum, an online course, which I will say firsthand is excellent.
00:24:53
Speaker
Like it is much needed resource. But please give us a little description of what people can find. Yeah. So we are trying to yeah provide more content in this realm of spiritual abuse, spiritual trauma, religious trauma.
00:25:07
Speaker
And so we do have some, I think now there's three webinars that are dealing primarily with that topic, but one most recent. And we have a story workshop that's coming up in a couple of weeks dealing with stories of spiritual abuse and healing because we're the Allender Center. Everything's oriented toward how do we heal? Yeah. Not just how do we like look at the thing, but how do we heal? yeah and Yes.
00:25:30
Speaker
And then, yes, we did create an online course that's it's asynchronous. So it's basically like you purchase it. It's yours. You can move at your own pace and really trying to do a deep dive on.
00:25:41
Speaker
It really was my labor of love of everyone keeps saying you need to write a book. And I'm like, I'm just so much better at talking. Here is my labor of love to invite more people to bring more voices in.
00:25:52
Speaker
to explore this reality. So we talk about the nature of spiritual abuse. We talk about kind of the setup of it, like what's in the water we're swimming in, how does our developmental trauma yeah and impact how we might be susceptible. We talk about the impact and then we really try to take seriously what are some of the core steps for healing. And, you know, in some ways, any course that's dealing with any form of abuse, the healing steps are going to be similar.
00:26:18
Speaker
The impact's going to be similar, but there's a lot of nuance with spiritual abuse. Yeah. There's a workbook associated with it. And then one of the things I'm most proud of is there's a huge resource guide connected to it with lots of different books and podcasts and healing communities and just trying to provide access to people so that there are more and more people taking this seriously and trying to come together. to And what I want to add is, again, or underline, you are a woman who deeply loves Jesus and
00:26:48
Speaker
and you do love Jesus Church, what you're trying to help people name and heal from is where we get it wrong. And so that may look different in different people's situations, but this is not these are not resources about how to walk away from your faith.
00:27:08
Speaker
These are resources right about how to embrace the authentic Jesus and a genuineness of faith. So I just want to make sure people know that. How would people get access to these offerings?
00:27:23
Speaker
Yeah, everything you could find access to at theallendercenter.org. The story workshop would be under workshops. The online course would be under courses. I think the webinars, yeah, I think there's a little webinars link of what's still available. Okay. And then we do have a bunch of free podcasts available as well yeah at the Allender Center podcast, which you can also find at theallendercenter.org. Okay. And the story workshop, the hope is, i know this is the second time it's being offered. Right.
00:27:52
Speaker
The hope would be that it could potentially be an annual offering. Is that right? That would be the hope. And we're also always... you know, trying to we will continue to work toward making things accessible. Yes.
00:28:05
Speaker
yeah And the right fit for what people are looking for. So we're also playing with the idea of doing something more like story ongoing story groups. groups Great. As opposed to, and yeah you know, intensive workshop. But yes, it would be the hope.
00:28:18
Speaker
that this would be an annual offering, a workshop that's still primarily with spiritual abuse. We also have a general, more general story workshop at the Allender Center that is in person. yeah This particular story workshop with spiritual abuse is virtual. know yeah And the traditional story workshop, will that be coming up next in the fall?
00:28:39
Speaker
Yes, it will yes it'll be coming up at the end of August. So I don't know where you are depends on if that's fall or not. yeah but Well, that's very true. That is very true. Okay. Thank you for speaking to all our international listeners at the Surviving Saturday podcast. ah All three of them are so grateful. Yes, that's right. I'm just saying end of August in Philly is end of summer because we don't go back to school until September. But we go to school to the middle of June. So like summer feels more like end of early July. But in the South, I feel like you guys get out school in May and you start in August. So it's that's roughly right. Yeah, we're kind of the June to August, but it still would very much temperature wise be incredibly summer.
00:29:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Still be in the 90s. OK. Thank you so much, Rachel, for your time. Enjoy an afternoon of baseball tournaments and games. Thank you. But what a gift to hear your heart.
00:29:34
Speaker
What a gift just to know you're out there working in the world for goodness, for faith, for love, for hope's sake. And so I just I really appreciate you. Well, feeling is mutual. so thank you What a beautiful time.
00:29:49
Speaker
Yep. All right. Take care.