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Story Work in Your Marriage: The Hope, The Challenges, and The Power (Pt. 3)
41 Plays3 days ago
A frequent theme of this lil' ol' podcast is that having a more honest, compassionate, and kind regard for your own story of formation in your family of origin can be a huge source of greater intimacy and kindness in your marriage.
But how exactly does that work?
What does it look like in practice for both people in a marriage to explore their stories, together?
What are the ideal circumstances and commitments that a couple would want to have before going into such a process? And what might they hope to gain if the effort bears fruit? Is it just a bunch of self-absorbed "navel gazing" or blame-shifting to our parents for our present day problems? Or, might there be something powerful, delicate, and maybe even holy at work?
In this THIRD episode of a3part series, Chris and Wendy share intimately about what doing story work has looked like through the last 20+ years of their marriage. And as you will see, it's been quite a journey.... They also describe what can happen when a couple either works with Wendy as their counselor to do story work for the benefit of their marriage, or decides to engage in a marriage story workshop or a one-on-one couples' intensive. No matter where you are in your marriage, there will be something of goodness, mystery, and wonder to be gained just for a half hour or so of your listening time. Enjoy!
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Transcript
Introduction to Surviving Saturday
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Surviving Saturday, a podcast about holding on to hope in the midst of life's difficulties, disappointments, and dark seasons.
Parallels Between Easter Saturday and Life's Challenges
00:00:13
Speaker
Times like that remind us of the agony and despair the followers of Jesus felt on the Saturday of Easter weekend, in between the Friday on which he was crucified and the Sunday on which he rose from the dead.
00:00:23
Speaker
That Sunday forever changed the way that humans can relate to God. But what does it look like to be honest about the very real pain we experience in the in-between? To fervently cling to hope in the God who promised us His peace and His presence, at times when He feels distant or even cruel.
Meet the Hosts: Wendy and Chris Osborne
00:00:41
Speaker
I'm Wendy Osborne, a licensed counselor in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm her husband Chris, a marriage mediator, conflict resolution coach, and trauma-informed story work coach.
The Role of Story Work in Building Hope
00:00:51
Speaker
Join us each episode for authentic conversations about how life not turning out as we'd expected has created the contextual soil for the growth of a tenacious hope in the resurrection and in a God who is still making all things new.
00:01:08
Speaker
Hey there folks, and welcome back to another episode of Surviving Saturday with Chris and Wendy. Yay, we're here with you. And today is going to be part three of our three-part series about um couples doing story work together.
Story Work in Marriage: Importance and Process
00:01:27
Speaker
um If you listened to the last couple of episodes, the whole idea we were discussing was um how it can be very beneficial and powerful and transformative in a marriage when both spouses and a couple um are ah willing to do story work and are doing story work and actually want to try to do it together.
00:01:48
Speaker
And we talked about some of the um The benefits of that, but the hope of that, and as we described, the hope of it is, can each of you learn to see the other person that you're in relationship with, with an eye for what they have endured, what they've experienced?
00:02:05
Speaker
Can you have um a growing respect ah for the stories that they've lived through that have been what formed their ways of seeing themselves and their ways of seeing the world, their way of showing up in the relationship?
00:02:17
Speaker
um Or as Wendy said, it kind of succinctly, can you let the story of the other person's life break your heart so that you have compassion for them? Even when when you encounter a place of some resistance, reactivity, conflict, difficulty, um can you learn to see, oh, I know what's behind that?
00:02:37
Speaker
because they were harmed a certain way. They experienced um life a certain way in their family of origin. um And of course, the the tricky part about that is before you can really able to do that for other person, what we've experienced and what we we think there's a lot of of of good teaching that supports is you kind of have to be able to let your own story break your own
Selecting Couples for Story Work
00:02:58
Speaker
heart. You have to have that compassion um and wisdom for yourself in order to then be able to try to to give that to the other person. It's a delicate, tricky process. We would say we've been at it, what, 20 plus years oh yeah at this point.
00:03:13
Speaker
um And we keep learning and experiencing new levels of what it means. And we would go back to our 30-something-year-old selves and say, oh, gosh, just hold tight.
00:03:24
Speaker
You don't even know half of what you're to need to know, want to know, to be able to meet each other to love each other in um in a different manner way. um So this part three is going to focus on the what what are the challenges? What are some questions that arise when we talk about doing story work as couples? um And i want to start with just Wendy, do you kind of speak to what couples are even appropriate for doing story work
The Role of Hope in Marriage
00:03:50
Speaker
together? It may not be for everybody.
00:03:52
Speaker
What is, what's the kind of the grid ah that you look through are the criteria that you apply in kind of deciding, is this something that would be beneficial for a particular couple? that you're working with or that might be wanting to come do an intensive with us or something.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, I think the first thing that I think of is both people have to have some degree of hope for the marriage and a desire to make it better and more than it is. And we've said before, um and I think we talked about it with Dan in the interview when he was here a little while back, God always has more in mind for our marriages, no matter how good we would consider them to be.
00:04:34
Speaker
So I think both partners, if they're going to do story work, need to have a sense of hope, um be willing to work on the marriage even if they're currently separated, but they have desire for more. And when you say hope, it's not, you're not talking about like optimism, like, yeah, this is going well, which means fine tuning.
00:04:54
Speaker
They can be in a place of, this is really hard. we We are stuck. We don't like where we are, but I want to persevere. I want to figure this out.
00:05:05
Speaker
I want to be able to learn and grow, even even though it might be a mustard seed. Yeah. Yeah, it may even be, I want to want to do this.
Safety and Trust in Story Work
00:05:16
Speaker
But even that to me is a glimmer of enough hope that they're willing to show up. um So that's that's one thing. Also, they've got to have enough safety and a sense of trust with each other and with the coach or the counselor that they're engaging in the work with.
00:05:34
Speaker
So they've got to feel emotionally safe, again, enough. Okay. Yes. um And say a little bit more about what you mean by safe enough. It's not going to be a perfect, they're getting along and they're chill all the time, but what what would you say is safe enough?
00:05:55
Speaker
So safe enough is that they come back to a place of believing that they want more for the marriage, their spouse wants more for the marriage, and that the other person is for them and they were willing to be for the other person.
00:06:15
Speaker
Okay. um And so I guess that means, and this sort of gets someone into my territory and the the legal work that I do, but ah if you have a situation where there is active, say physical abuse or financial abuse or emotional abuse,
00:06:31
Speaker
that's still going on. That's probably going to be a little bit of a red flag. Well, those people ethically wouldn't be considered candidates for marriage counseling of any sort yeah because honesty would be too costly.
00:06:44
Speaker
Yeah. um and And what I hear you saying is um It's got to truly be safe if for for each person to to be vulnerable.
Personal Growth and Story Work
00:06:54
Speaker
If there is a significant risk that that vulnerability is going to be weaponized or misused, um you definitely don't want to to to try to delve into that territory.
00:07:07
Speaker
Well, and I think that brings up another issue of each person also has to feel safe within themselves. So a lot of times what will happen is couples will tell me they went home after a session and one says to the other, I can't believe you made me look that way.
00:07:25
Speaker
I can't believe you told that story. um Why would you describe it that way? And so each person has to have enough internal safety. And that would, again, be the case for marriage counseling, that they can endure the process.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yes. um And so ah that kind of ties into another that criteria then is they they really um need to have some level of willingness to do their own individual work.
00:07:54
Speaker
It doesn't mean they love it all the time. doesn't mean they're great at it necessarily because nobody, and present company included, nobody starts off super well-attuned or astute about our own stories. That's part of why it takes um a trained counselor, story work coach, or a um recovery type and intensive setting um because we can't tell our own stories. Honestly, really, that's part of the challenge we're dealing with. We're all narrating what we experienced as we were formed to do.
00:08:25
Speaker
And as as we made sense of it at the ages, we experienced different things, which when we go back and sort of revisit it as adults, we start to realize, oh, that's what my... 10-year-old brain decided about this or about life because it had to yes to survive. I needed to separate people into good and bad black hat, white hat categories in order to make sense of it.
00:08:48
Speaker
And it turns out the story is is way more complex than that. yeah revis it So everybody's got to be willing to do some of their own work. um So what would you say then, imagine you encounter frequently,
00:09:01
Speaker
when you have a couple and one of them has begun doing story work and started connecting some dots and realizing, oh my gosh, there is really benefit and value in this.
00:09:11
Speaker
But the other spouse is resistant for some reason, either they're hostile and say, you know, I don't, I don't even understand it. And, or they say, but I don't have a story you do, but I don't, or they say, I just don't understand how that connects to today. That seems like it's spent time the past. Kind of talk about that a little bit.
00:09:32
Speaker
So I just first want to honor the deep loneliness that that spouse feels. the one who is doing the work and longing for their spouse to join them. yeah So there's a lot of loneliness.
00:09:48
Speaker
There's a lot of um grief. Like they want their spouse to join them, to know them, And to be willing to be uncomfortable for the sake of growing the marriage.
Challenges When One Partner Resists Story Work
00:10:02
Speaker
And it can be really challenging for that person because in a sense what's happening is they're waking up to or learning to navigate their feelings. And in some sense, it's it's going to be hard to name that desire and that it's not being met, but not just go into compulsive ways of trying to fix that situation.
00:10:24
Speaker
Right. um To sit in that sort of loneliness of, oh my gosh, I think more is available for us. I can see it, but also have to reckon with their powerlessness to not be able to make it happen for the other person.
00:10:40
Speaker
Right. And that is likely storied itself. Like when has this spouse who is beginning to see things that formed them and desire that their marriage include this kind of work, when what are their prior experiences with being powerless?
00:11:00
Speaker
you know And so that is likely going to indicate the way they deal with their spouse when their spouse will not listen to them to say, come and do this with me. And I think we can, we identify, we were talking about a little bit beforehand this morning on, we both experienced seasons where maybe one of us felt like, oh my gosh, I'm learning something. This is helpful.
00:11:25
Speaker
If we really did this, it would change us. and And we I know, and and at least in my case, when that happened for me some, I i i think i I became kind of desperate and demanding in a different way because I like got a taste of, oh my gosh, i learning about some of our unhealthy relational patterns.
00:11:47
Speaker
To me, it started kind of making sense, connecting dots. um and But then I kind of became sort of pushy or demanding like for you, you should see this too and You need to see this the same way and you weren't you weren't there at that point. um And then you've experienced the flip side.
00:12:05
Speaker
Other times where like you're seeing me stuck in a place and you like, you you can see there might be a way out and I'm not i' not embracing you know healing enough.
00:12:16
Speaker
Right. And I think, you know, if a couple is already with a coach or a counselor at this point, an astute helper can see that the stories of both people are playing out right there in this conversation, where one feels the need to power up.
00:12:35
Speaker
because they likely have contended with a lot of powerlessness in their life. The other one may be used to having their autonomy overridden. And so you're playing out a cycle that is very familiar to both.
00:12:48
Speaker
Yeah. And it's it's hard because... The good part about real deep healing and and in processing your story is it feels super liberating um when you start seeing, oh my gosh, this explains so much. I always wondered why I struggled with chaos, disorganization, distraction, whatever it is Now I can understand there's a power in that. that's It's really good. You want that energy because you have this vision of, I don't have to live the way that I've always lived. But that can you then you sort of have that that energy of the new convert of you want everybody like, get some of this, come on.
00:13:27
Speaker
And then you you come in and and can be, at least we've we've experienced this, you you sort of can be pushing that on your on your spouse um without regard for where are they in their story? What are they ready to name? What are they feeling safe with?
00:13:41
Speaker
and And they're going to possibly be feeling a number of things. One is your sort of new, redeemed, um more alive, more present self is going to be disruptive because you're you're you're not entering into the old patterns of relating the same way.
00:13:57
Speaker
And it's going to probably, you know, upset them and they have, again, as you said, many storied ways of how can respond to that. It may be intimidating. They may feel shame, like, well, I can never heal like that, but they won't say that.
00:14:11
Speaker
um and So there's all kinds of tricky territory or or you things you have to navigate here. um and so you have to watch out for it if somebody is doing the work watch out for that demanding you have to it can be you have to see me this way like i see me this way now you better also that's you know not going well or you have to do your work too um i know i went on a ah healing with intensive recently with some other men and everybody's at different places in the relationship and different people are you know wanting to go back and and like the drive that dan always talks about you know to go back to your family once you start realizing this stuff and you want to kind of go in and set everything straight and like be careful with that and watch that energy hold that um what would you say the the invitation then uh and the other thing that could happen is you could start despairing if the other person you're doing work that person's not you have to sit in that longer so think you phrased it really well when you spoke earlier to the invitation to
00:15:07
Speaker
The partner who's who's a little you know more embracing of storybook is grief first. Yeah. there's That's what I was saying earlier. like There's so much grief that is going to have to be felt, experienced, endured um because what they hope for is not presently
Impact of Past Experiences on Marriage
00:15:31
Speaker
available.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. um One thing that came up as you were talking is I've been working with a couple and the man sees their dynamics in a different way.
00:15:45
Speaker
And he sees the roots of the way they deal with each other coming directly from the ways that they had to live inside their families of origin. So the roles they played.
00:15:59
Speaker
Okay. She carried the role of always having to make sure everyone else was okay and not having needs because there were too many needs in the family.
00:16:12
Speaker
So he is inviting her into healing, but deep in her bone, she feels this terror of having needs. And so she presents as saying, I don't understand why any of this is relevant. Right.
00:16:27
Speaker
okay But I can see behind that resistance that she does not think it's okay to have needs because she's not sure they'll be met and she will just be asked to sit with the pain of her own vulnerability.
00:16:44
Speaker
Okay. And so i think that, you know, for this man, there's a lot of grief. Grief over the freedom that she cannot experience right now.
00:16:55
Speaker
Grief over where he would like to be able to be closer to her, like joined together for the sake of the marriage. Grief that he sees things she doesn't see and he sees a way forward that she's not willing to see right now.
00:17:12
Speaker
And so it's really painful. I think i'm I'm reminded too of something that one of our counselors said early on that we both had to, like it was kind of radical, but but the idea of learning to wait well.
00:17:26
Speaker
Yes. um I remember hearing that going, know, screw that. I don't like waiting, period. Like I just read something or learned something, experienced something. This is the answer. Let's get it. Let's move it forward. You can hear my energy rise. Yeah. And the idea of learning to wait well.
00:17:43
Speaker
um and entrust and wrestle with God. That's where you when you're saying grief, that means wrestle with God. Oh, I want this for them. And and i am I am more aware than I used to be of my powerlessness to make it happen.
00:17:57
Speaker
Well, you know what you said made me think of you know a dynamic between us. So I'll let you speak to your side, but I'll name it that your some of your wounding has left you energized to fix things. Yes. Some of my wounding has led me to despair and hopelessness and a sense of why try.
00:18:19
Speaker
And so those two things can really collide. Okay. Yeah. That's actually helpful as you say that I can connect that to because like in my family,
00:18:33
Speaker
the fighting was overt, loud, unmistakable. And I was drawn into it as a combatant. And part of my story is a was almost like, you know, picture me at like a little nine or 10 year old self, but like referee. Mm-hmm.
00:18:48
Speaker
mediator, communicator, caregiver, combatant. So for me, my nervous system comes alive. Oh, there's conflict. I got this. I know how to do this because I started doing when i was young. Now that's, that's, that's not fully right. and I've had to learn, you know, how to, to wield that energy rightly well. It's some of what forms me and and makes me a mediator and, um, have counseling mindset and coaching mindset today.
00:19:13
Speaker
um, there can be this over energy of it is up to me to fix this. And if I don't, nobody else will because that's what it felt like. yes And a lot of how I've had to grow you know and as a mediator and as a counselor is sometimes I have to sit and hold hope and invite, but I can't make.
00:19:34
Speaker
yeah and i And that desperation is the dangerous part and that it it depends on me. Even when I'm mediating, I have to step back and go, I can't bring folks any any farther than they're going to go. yeah And I don't want to be a person who, you know, there's a saying in mediation, like, are going to twist our arms and twist our arms? I'm like, I really don't want to. yeah I'm going to invite you to see challenging things. yeah um and And I'm okay with that. yeah But same thing here in our work with couples, we can invite them to see things and you hold out the hope and the possibility that this could be helpful if you do, but we can't make them.
00:20:10
Speaker
See things. Right. And we have to really deal with the issue of trust. Okay. So it may be less about the spouse's trustworthiness, although there's probably, you know, none of us are fully trustworthy.
00:20:25
Speaker
um But it may be less about that and more about the experience that one of them has had being unable to trust others' goodness. Okay. So some of my clients have come from homes where they were set up to trust in something only to have it ripped away or to be mocked for believing in something. Okay. So you
Role of Counselors and Mediators
00:20:52
Speaker
can imagine the kind of war that is um for them to trust. So I have a young man that I work with.
00:21:01
Speaker
And when he was little, his father invited him to consider building a tree house together. And he let his son draw pictures of exactly what he wanted.
00:21:14
Speaker
And they went to the hardware store and they started looking at what they would buy. And they went home and they wrote on a budget and showed it to the rest of the family and talked about where in the yard it would be.
00:21:26
Speaker
And so on the Saturday morning that they were to build the tree house, The son is all dressed. He's got his little overalls on. He's got his little toolbox. He comes out with the pictures and dad starts laughing.
00:21:40
Speaker
and says, did you really think we were going to build a tree? Oh my gosh. Okay. So for these kinds of events happened over and over in this child's life, this being the most extreme. Okay.
00:21:54
Speaker
But can you imagine the war it is for that now man to trust his spouse has anything good for him.
00:22:05
Speaker
And when his spouse fails him, He remembers just how foolish he is to believe that someone's goodness or promise of goodness toward him will ever come to fruition.
00:22:20
Speaker
So there is so much work to do inside of him before we can get to him trusting his spouse in present day. That makes sense. Because those stories have such power over him.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah, and that's one of the things I guess you do as a counselor, when if you are working with each of them, and maybe you've seen them individually sometimes or you've seen them together, but you're kind of getting a read on where are these formative places? What are the obstacles and barriers going to be?
00:22:50
Speaker
And you're going to have a better attunement to that. both because of professional training, but because of your objectivity. Like you're not in the spin with them. And so you're able to see it. And that, we'll come back to that point yeah a little bit, the value of an outside aesthetic witness. Sometimes that has to happen more either with you or with a a recovery type group or group setting yes before then,
00:23:16
Speaker
taking it into the the relational category. yeah So the the call, as we mentioned, if you are the if the person if you're the person who's doing more story work, is more bought in, um the invitation also is then to experience change for your own sake.
00:23:32
Speaker
yeah I know when I've been to a recovery week setting or a um an intensive ah as I mentioned earlier, we you leave, there's this energy like, oh my gosh, I'm being changed, but you really want the other person to see that. But the problem is is is the desperation to want them to see that. And I can relate to it. I did it so much. Oh my gosh, I'm different. I learned something. Hey, honey, get it. Look, look, look, I'm different.
00:23:57
Speaker
yeah That is potentially going to feel, well, tell me, what did that feel like sometimes if I if that's how I kind of showed up, like I've got the answer, I'm different, please see me as different. Could you read that? And what did that do in you? oh Well, now i see it and it breaks my heart because I can see that there is this desperation in you that was planted early of, will somebody see me and call me good?
00:24:22
Speaker
Like, look at me, look at me. To me,
00:24:26
Speaker
to me it read as desperation that there was another thing wrong with me and my autonomy was going to be overridden again so that I could be fixed enough to be pleasing.
00:24:39
Speaker
yeah Because my story is very different, that there was always something wrong that if I was ever to be chosen, must be fixed. And it wasn't just like a single thing. It was like,
00:24:52
Speaker
I experienced it as everything about me. Yes. And I didn't know at that time, that depth of level of your story and was clueless that I was coming in, landing on that. And so really i remember getting somewhere along the lines and the guidance of, Hey,
00:25:10
Speaker
you're what you take, what you do. If you learn something that's new, that's helpful, that's great. Learn it, make it yours, do it for your own sake. Um, I remember, and and not as a means to an end to get what I want from you in the relationship. And I remember I may have told the story in um in a prior podcast episode. I don't think I have, but I remember an epi episode or a men's retreat at Montreat with our church.
00:25:33
Speaker
And I remember there being something pretty powerful said by the speaker. Um, And don't remember exactly what it was, but it led to me in one of the quiet times going and just sitting kind the middle of that creek that flows in one tree. Lake Susan. Yes, exactly. The creek that kind of flows out of that. And I remember, you know, just God just showing me everything you've learned has been a tool that you have taken try to fix your marriage and what's going on in Wendy and what's going in you and all.
00:26:04
Speaker
And can you just lay the tools down? Can you just be transformed, just be different, just operate, not to make sure somebody sees it yeah and you get the acclaim for it or or or not.
00:26:18
Speaker
you So you'll now you'll do your part, right? Because I've brought a lot of that energy to just, well, I have to be this different person. I have to experience this healing and and trust. you know It may make things better. It may make things worse. Because that's the other thing. he Again, if would when you run into the fact that your healing self is disruptive for the other person, And maybe not for reasons that you can understand and certainly not for reasons that you're culpable for. Right. Like you don't see, but can you sit and and can God be enough yeah to sit with you and help you just self-regulate and help you go, how do I wait well now?
Co-Regulation and Empathy in Relationships
00:26:53
Speaker
And how do I wait in ah in an undemanding way?
00:26:56
Speaker
Well, and that's where, you know, having individual care, whether by the same coach or counselor or someone else, is really important because for some of us, we're not at a place where God himself feels safe enough.
00:27:12
Speaker
And so that val self-regulation may actually come from co-regulation with another human being who is empathetic and kind and can honor where this person is.
00:27:26
Speaker
Well, and that a good transition to another challenging place. Let's say you have a couple where both actually are willing to do some work and they're starting to do some good work, but both of their stories are really hard. There are, like you just described in our dynamic, things that we didn't even know they were landing on. There's more complexity, there's more darkness than either of them has woken up to.
00:27:51
Speaker
um that can make it challenging to do it together as well, because you're both sort of learning this new territory, this new way of being at the same time. um um And so I like what you alluded to. they They need to be getting individual care also. And that that could be meeting individually with you separate from their couple times.
00:28:12
Speaker
Or do you have a lot of people who are like, they're you for a couple work, but then they each have an individual therapist or vice versa or So I do have that. um If the couple, if both individuals are willing, I will often work with each of them individually and then with them together.
00:28:32
Speaker
They have to feel completely safe and willing. The reason is, and I know the stories, because if one of them is meeting with another counselor,
00:28:44
Speaker
They can come back and tell me and that's fine, but I may learn differently if I work with them individually than together. Now, more often what happens is the couple comes to the sessions together, even if we're only focusing on one of them, because what I often hear from the other spouse is she never talks that much at home or I never heard him tell that story that way. i actually had no idea.
00:29:13
Speaker
That's the way that thing went down with his dad. yeah I had heard the story from his mother and it it was very different. yeah So a lot of times couples appreciate getting to hear the story in a neutral situation without all the emotion.
00:29:30
Speaker
um And that has a healing power. Like if if I can hear your story as you tell it to a counselor and I'm not inflamed, you're not mad at me in the moment, so I'm not resistant, then it can draw a ah compassion for you out of my heart of, wow, I've never thought about the story that way.
00:29:56
Speaker
and then there's that powerful moment because I know how you do this and I know how we do it when we do a couples intensive. It's not, so other spouse, do you see that? Do you get that? It's not a harshness. It's a lot of times it's like, what are you hearing?
00:30:10
Speaker
is the you know how How is this, as you sit and listen to us have this dialogue, what is that doing in you? And people say some amazing things. yeah They are actually seeing it differently again because this neutral person and this trained person is drawing the story out with, with kindness, um with attunement, because that's what we're trained to do. yeah um And that's where we can't emphasize enough um to have compassion on your own story, to see it rightly, to see yourself with kindness and curiosity. It really super, super important. It helps to have the empathetic witness of others. That is where we have both would say we've experienced some of the greatest
00:30:52
Speaker
breakthroughs, healing is other people to sit with me in my story and go, um that's that's really worse than you're playing it out to be. Do you see what you're doing with this or or stop you know whitewashing this or whatever to to enter into and go,
00:31:08
Speaker
my heart is breaking or I'm angry at it this person because they are harming you and you're still making excuses for them or you're trying to minimize what they did. And they're like, no, I'm angry. I am pissed. and There's this freedom to go.
00:31:22
Speaker
Maybe I could be too if I were allowed to, which I wasn't then. um So the empathetic witness of another person is huge. And the desire to have that other person be your spouse is a lovely one.
00:31:35
Speaker
It's a great one. It can be what happens. It is a good end result of this, but you can't get there too fast. You can't make it happen. It may be you need to be experiencing this healing on your own.
00:31:49
Speaker
with other people beside your spouse first to bear the sympathetic witness in a safe environment. Then as you grow in your own ability to have compassion and your own ability to regulate as you go into your story, then is when you sort of bring the couple together as each of you is doing that, that's where the the couple dynamic breakthroughs can start to happen.
Approaches to Story Work: Couples and Groups
00:32:12
Speaker
But there, so I love that there is no one size fits all. yeah There's really, tailoring it to each individual couple. um And so it may be they're doing couple sessions with you and then breaking off individually.
00:32:26
Speaker
And then you have had the the, we've had the privilege of some clients will come and do like an intensive weekend where we do more of this. And one of the advantages of an intensive is you can, you can stay with it a little bit longer yeah and do a deeper dive and do more of the, Hey, let's stay with you for an hour and then stay with the other person for an hour.
00:32:46
Speaker
and then do some processing out of that. oh And you have that opportunity to hear those stories a deeper level. Yeah. And you can also in that format do some experiential exercises um because you you just have longer. Didn't we, ah in fact, one intensive we did a sand tray. Didn't you do? We did sand trays with a couple.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yep. So each couple. Tell people what that is. Yeah. So sand tray is just a modality of allowing a person to tell the story of what's happening using little miniatures, little figurines. So it it's a way of telling the story little bit more out of your right brain of how this feels to you than just thinking in terms of the way you would tell it in words. And so I've got hundreds of little miniatures that metaphorically represent
00:33:41
Speaker
different situations. some Some are literal. There's people and there's animals and there's fences. um But we give a person a prompt and ask,
00:33:55
Speaker
how would you represent this part of your life? So I've had children that have come out of foster care um do it and describe the different houses they lived in. And so they might use fairytale characters that were in charge of the different houses. you know This one There is a witch. There is a fairy. And just sort of I can get a sense of their internal world. But at the couples intensive that you are referring to, we had each member of the couple have their own sand tray and create a visual of how their marriage looks to them. And she put herself as a superhero holding every member of the family up above her head.
00:34:41
Speaker
And she said, I feel like I have to carry everyone. wow And her husband was stunned that that is the way it feels for her. yeah And so there's even a way to have compassion if someone isn't merely telling, but they're showing this is what it's like. And you can see this figure straining to hold up an entire family And you can imagine what it's like for her to be buckling under the pressure.
00:35:09
Speaker
Well, and the visual image is helpful and for some of us. Visual images mean more yeah than auditory. um And they've got a picture they can kind of hold on to and kind of come back to. you One of my favorite stories that I still remember where we saw some real healing happen, Dots Connected, there was a couple that came and described different stories from their background. And one of them had said something to the effect of, had gotten to tell stories of family member turning on them, a family member
00:35:48
Speaker
kind of similar, not as bad as that treehouse story, which is awful, but similar set ups um and ah only to be cut down. and And they came back after, because we you know give them time to reflect in between sessions, but they came back for the last morning.
00:36:04
Speaker
And the person who had heard that other person's story said, I have realized from hearing that story, I've got to be the other person's ride or die. I've got to actually, when we're with his family, I've been joining with them in condemning him, making him feel small, left out.
00:36:22
Speaker
I've got to be his ride or die. yeah And it was so powerful. And then there was a flip side. um he the other The man had more compassion, but the other person, because like I did not know that when I bring all this energy in this way, I'm landing on that story of hers. And now that he's seen that story and entered into it with her,
00:36:41
Speaker
It's more, and and we would say that's happened for us. There's ways that we tread more carefully yeah because we know what delicate space it is. yeah um And so that when it works, when it happens, um it can be super helpful. And you what I've enjoyed about it is you really never stop learning. right um we've gotten We've been privileged to do a group with some couples that we did an intensive with.
00:37:08
Speaker
couple of years ago and then several of us have orre invited to stay in the group together. We get together once a month and we all enter in and do this together in a group context. And it's fascinating to watch um how each couple gets to sort of be center stage and, and deal with, Hey, here's where we are. Here's where stories are showing up and being frustrated. And the other couples can have insight because everybody's doing work can see, Oh my gosh, I have compassion for you. I see this for you.
00:37:37
Speaker
in a way that, again, the the couple in the spin, when it's us, you know, we can't quite see this, but somebody else comes and says, do you know, do you get how this hits her? And and and they're reacting to it And there's something really amazing that happens.
00:37:52
Speaker
It's been so sweet and so effective because they're there's so much honor for where each couple is. And you can, if you surveyed,
00:38:04
Speaker
the year and a half at least that we've done this, um you'll see each couple in wildly different places. Yes. And, you know, from like beautifully connected to fully at odds to somewhere in the middle and there's honor and no judgment and there's no um condescension, but more of a, yeah, I don't know where we'll be next time.
00:38:32
Speaker
yeah um And so that just creates a sense of safety because all these places in marriage are normal. And then the goal is that you walk the road of all that terrain together.
00:38:45
Speaker
Yes. and And I love that you use the word safety because I was going to say that as well. I feel safe for us to come into that particular space and be raw and say, this is what happened this morning.
00:38:57
Speaker
yeah and and And other people doing this too, even the couple that's leading it. Yeah, it's hass modeled that so well. of This is live. This is real.
Exploring Hidden Narratives and Trauma
00:39:06
Speaker
This is not. Remember when we weren't functional in our marriage and now we are. It's so it's like, yeah here's what where we've grown and learned and even as much as we've grown and learned,
00:39:16
Speaker
we still fall. We still fall back into but you're in a safe environment where it was trying to catch and say, oh, you're bad. Oh, you're in this. It's more, let me support you because I have walked with you yeah and seen some of your story. I know where you've walked and we can kind of call it back.
00:39:30
Speaker
And that's the hope of it. um The last thing to speak to briefly, um there still might be some people who who just don't feel like they have a story. Like they are just like, I mean, my childhood was, as far as they are describing it, it was pretty good.
00:39:45
Speaker
um What do you say when they're not resistant, they're not hostile, and they're not questioning? They're like, yeah, but I don't really have anything to say. She's got the dramatic story, but I really don't. I would say there's something in that where they've never been allowed to have emotions or feelings, um that they've just had to be okay. But the truth is, we all have a story because I believe God is writing one, but we're all raised by sinners as sinners in a very fallen world.
00:40:14
Speaker
And so all of us have experienced both beauty and brokenness. And so everybody has a story, but it may take a while and a lot of kindness and compassion and a lot of general curiosity to help a person be willing to step into what is theirs.
00:40:32
Speaker
I'm always intrigued when I'll hear people who who will say that's their story, that their child was pretty good. And they'll just sort of casually say, I mean, my parents divorced um um and and just sort of bounce off. up but you know But they co-parented really well. we got through this. I'm like, okay, but but that did do something to you yeah for there to be a rending asunder of The family that was supposed to be. yeah and and And some of them, some of the people I've worked with, their family wasn't together long.
00:41:02
Speaker
They were very young when there was a divorce. Okay. That's that. In fact, some of them were older, cognizant, aware, but there, there are feelings in there about that. and And the way we often approach it is just to have some curiosity about, well, you know, how did your family handle disappointment?
00:41:18
Speaker
um How did you learn to to deal with loss or, you know, separation, anxiety, whatever? um and and And a lot of times that's where, you know, paying attention to what the body knows is often helpful um because, you know, what we're talking about is not just big, what would what some people would say, big T trauma, like, oh, we had a death of of a parent or we had, and we moved across country and there was our friends. Again, some people did not have discernible,
00:41:47
Speaker
um big traumatic moments, but there may have been small losses, disappointing places along the way, or ways that you were socialized and and shaped. Yeah. I mean, I think to be alive in this world yeah is to have experienced some level of pain and brokenness or trauma.
00:42:06
Speaker
Trauma is really just an event that overwhelms your nervous system's ability to cope. And so that can be quite frankly,
00:42:17
Speaker
Your parents tell you to stop playing video games when you're four and you don't want to stop. Yeah. okay So it's, I mean, we've all had brokenness and did we have care in it?
00:42:28
Speaker
um I often will hear somebody describe maybe, ah you know, what are some words that describe either your relationship with this parent or that parent, or or what did it feel like in the midst of a separation divorce? and and And like one person said, you know, I felt missed a lot. like, oh, hey, there's there's more to really dive into there. what What did you do with that being missed? What were you told to do? How did people react?
00:42:54
Speaker
Were you able to speak to, were you allowed to articulate that you felt a certain way? Those things matter. That's what we're talking about. And so we would say to that person, be curious about your own story.
00:43:08
Speaker
um One of things we didn't say earlier that I think is a good note to end on also um both for people as you're going through this process, if you're going through together, or if you're the person who is doing story work and you're waiting on the other person to be you know ready and willing,
00:43:23
Speaker
um playfully be curious, be curious with yourself. um One suggestion that i've I've had recently, I'm trying to do is you know, gather some old photos from your childhood and just sit with them and see what comes to mind. What do you recall? I'm like, i gosh, don't remember that scene at all, but be imaginative about it.
00:43:43
Speaker
And you can be curious with the other person, not over the pain and the hardest and the terrible stories, but be curious about the good formative stories.
Invitation to Engage with Nurture Counseling
00:43:51
Speaker
You learn things from the good parts of, of story as well. And they're always, who was your favorite teacher?
00:43:57
Speaker
You know, mine was Mrs. Gagstatter. But, but yeah, I mean, a lot of times it it can start in present day of what are you feeling in your marriage is hard.
00:44:13
Speaker
And that can lead you back to stories that have formed you. But I love that idea of getting out photos of each of you when you were little and just being curious. Like, tell me about this birthday party and that hot wheel car set you got. Like, I want to hear.
00:44:30
Speaker
And I promise there will always be something to learn because you and I known each other 40 years. And we met when we were probably 42 now.
00:44:41
Speaker
And we knew each other's families growing up and we still continue to learn yeah new details, new things, and see them in new ways. And so if you didn't meet until you were in college, then you got tons of stuff you can explore and learn. If you met dating in the Charlottesene, then you got 20 plus, 30 plus years to go through.
00:45:02
Speaker
Don't think you're done. yeah So we appreciate folks listening and being here for this episode. And if you are interested in exploring your story together as a couple, um reach out to Wendy, reach out to us at Nurture Counseling.
00:45:17
Speaker
um And we we do plan to have more marriage folks yeah offerings coming. That is on the short list. And we have a wait list for intensives because those are everybody has to kind of schedule those and work those out in advance.
00:45:30
Speaker
um And I'm available to do story work with a limited number of of people um on a go for it basis. But thanks for listening and we will see you on the next episode.
00:45:43
Speaker
The Surviving Saturday podcast is brought to you by Nurture Counseling PLLC, the counseling, teaching and training center based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. We help families flourish one story at a time.
00:45:54
Speaker
Nurture Counseling provides counseling, counseling intensive for couples, conflict resolution coaching, story work groups, seminars, workshops and retreats to provide a safe and welcoming context for exploring the agonizing experiences of pain, brokenness and evil that disrupt our lives.
00:46:10
Speaker
and that God often uses to nurture deeper trust and intimacy with Him and with each other. You can find us online at www.nurturecounseling.net.