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How Sexual Reaganites Deregulated The Sexual Marketplace To Women’s Detriment w/ Louise Perry
19 Plays3 years ago
Author and Journalist (and longtime FDS fan!) Louise Perry joins the queens to discuss the fallout from the faulty assumptions of the sexual revolution. We discuss why so many men seem to be SO undesireable to women, the kinds of women who become sex therapists, Sexual Reaganites, how gender neutrality is disguising inequality, and the unwillingness of leftist media to platform feminists critical of sex positive culture.
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Transcript
Introduction of Louise Perry and Discussion Overview
00:00:06
Speaker
What's up, queens?
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female-only podcast on the internet.
00:00:11
Speaker
I'm Ro.
00:00:12
Speaker
I'm Savannah.
00:00:13
Speaker
And I'm Lola.
00:00:14
Speaker
And today our special guest is Louise Perry, journalist and author of the new book, The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, and the founder of a nonpartisan feminist think tank called The Other Half.
00:00:27
Speaker
Welcome, Louise Perry.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello.
00:00:28
Speaker
Thank you for having me.
00:00:29
Speaker
I know I'm trying to get you on the podcast for a little bit because we've seen some of your work that's been very FDS-esque.
00:00:37
Speaker
And a lot of people from FDS have actually shared some of your work when you're talking about how the sexual revolution didn't quite pan out the way that a lot of feminists expected it to and why.
00:00:49
Speaker
So I think it'd be great to just jump right into the meat of
Outcomes of the Sexual Revolution
00:00:52
Speaker
it.
00:00:52
Speaker
What's your opinion on this?
00:00:53
Speaker
Like what happened in the sexual revolution that ended up leaving so many women sexually dissatisfied?
00:01:01
Speaker
Can I just start by saying that I'm a big FGS fan?
00:01:03
Speaker
Thank you.
00:01:05
Speaker
A male friend of mine introduced me to it like three or four years ago, I think, when you were still on Reddit because you're not on Reddit anymore, are you?
00:01:14
Speaker
No, I hate that place.
00:01:16
Speaker
And he was like, you're going to love this.
00:01:19
Speaker
And I binged on all of your intro stuff and yeah, very aligned.
00:01:23
Speaker
So yeah, I think the basic error that
00:01:27
Speaker
sexual revolutionaries made, I mean, to the extent that anyone planned it, it's a combination of things that all happened at the same time, right?
00:01:34
Speaker
Some of it is just to do with the fact that the pill arrived and for the first time in the history of the world, women could suspend their fertility and that was going to have massive social consequences, right?
00:01:45
Speaker
No matter the political context.
00:01:47
Speaker
But there is also the political story of the sexual religion, which is all about tearing down the old sexual norms.
00:01:54
Speaker
And there were clearly people who were cheerleaders for that, many of them feminists, who assumed that this would be in women's best interests.
00:02:00
Speaker
I think the reason that that hasn't worked out, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that
00:02:06
Speaker
women are not actually any happier than they were on average pre-sexual revolution and sexual violence has not gone away.
00:02:13
Speaker
And I don't think there's really much evidence to suggest that sexual violence has even reduced.
00:02:18
Speaker
And there are all sorts of new problems that have arrived on the scene.
00:02:22
Speaker
You know, it was not considered normal for our grandmothers, for instance, to expect to be choked by a sexual partner.
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a contentious, that issue in particular is so contentious because first of all, everyone's aware that most of that became normalized because of porn.
00:02:38
Speaker
And I don't know to the extent that this is anywhere true, but a lot of men are like, oh, I'm actually not into the choking.
00:02:44
Speaker
It's that women are into the choking.
00:02:45
Speaker
So I do it.
00:02:46
Speaker
And then a lot of women are like, well, I do it because I think men like it.
00:02:49
Speaker
So it's become like this odd, like mirror image of each other where like nobody likes doing it, but then people keep doing it, right?
00:02:56
Speaker
It's very odd.
00:02:57
Speaker
Like, there might be like a select amount of women who are actually into it, but there's just so much more women who are like,
00:03:04
Speaker
I just thought this was part of sex because this is the way that sex has been modeled for me.
00:03:08
Speaker
And then there's a lot of men, again, there's the men who are really into the domination and degrading aspect of it, but then a lot more men who are doing it because they also feel like it's a sexual performance they have to do.
Sexual Asymmetry and Norms
00:03:19
Speaker
Now, the result is a bunch of traumatized women, especially ones who necessarily weren't expecting it to feel like they're being attacked during sex and that it's normal to feel like you're being literally assaulted during sex.
00:03:31
Speaker
And then men who think it's normal to do that can't
00:03:34
Speaker
sexually function without that kind of extreme violence.
00:03:37
Speaker
And then the men who are sort of reluctantly doing it because they, you know, they don't like it either, but they just feel like, oh, this is the thing that women keep asking for.
00:03:44
Speaker
It's extremely dysfunctional.
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:46
Speaker
And you can't blame women and some men for looking at this and thinking, I thought this wasn't how this was supposed to turn out.
00:03:54
Speaker
The sexual revolution was supposed to be about liberating women, right?
00:03:58
Speaker
And it's complicated, right?
00:04:00
Speaker
It's not entirely a bad news story.
00:04:01
Speaker
There are certain ways in which women's lives have improved.
00:04:06
Speaker
Something like domestic violence used to be treated so much less seriously than it is now.
00:04:10
Speaker
We didn't have things like refuges, which were created by second wave feminists.
00:04:14
Speaker
That's a really solid example of genuine improvement.
00:04:18
Speaker
But there's also plenty of examples which suggest that things haven't improved or have gone in the opposite direction.
00:04:23
Speaker
And I think that the reason for that is to do with sexual asymmetry.
00:04:27
Speaker
The fact that men and women are different in really profound ways, including in psychological ways, which are difficult in the current climate to talk about, but which I think are no less real for that.
00:04:38
Speaker
And if what you do basically is you just remove all of the old norms,
00:04:45
Speaker
and institutions that used to regulate heterosexual relations.
00:04:49
Speaker
I mean, the thing I compare it to in the book is like deregulating financial markets, just removing restrictions, sort of leaving people to their own devices and expecting everything to work out.
00:05:00
Speaker
It's like the worship of the free market, that the free market will always... I kind of get where you're going.
00:05:05
Speaker
The people's commitment to the free market, despite all the failures of it, is almost ideological.
00:05:11
Speaker
And they'll very specifically decide to not look at the negative effects of it, to always say the free market always corrects itself.
00:05:18
Speaker
The free market is always correct.
00:05:19
Speaker
And then... Yeah, the invisible hand of sex positive wisdom.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
Right.
00:05:23
Speaker
Exactly.
00:05:25
Speaker
The term I use in the book, which is a bit cheeky, is sexual Thatcherites, or sexual Reaganites maybe would be the American version.
00:05:31
Speaker
Sexual Reaganites.
00:05:32
Speaker
Interesting.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:34
Speaker
Who assume that if you just sort of remove any restrictions, things are going to improve.
00:05:40
Speaker
And I say, well, no, because... Trickle-down sexonomics.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:44
Speaker
Because the playing field isn't even.
00:05:46
Speaker
We know that when you're talking about, well, anyone who's not like...
00:05:50
Speaker
a free marketeer will recognise that the economic playing field isn't even.
00:05:54
Speaker
There are clearly people who have much more advantageous positions than others and are much more likely to use this new freedom to their own ends.
00:06:01
Speaker
And that will include exploiting other people within the market.
00:06:04
Speaker
You know, the factory owners clearly have completely different interests from workers.
00:06:08
Speaker
And I think that that's also true in the sexual marketplace.
00:06:11
Speaker
And the most important division to my mind is between men and women, because the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant, the fact that we're so much smaller and less physically strong than men is so important.
00:06:24
Speaker
It means that in any heterosexual encounter where two men and a man and woman are alone together, the woman's going to be at a physical disadvantage, you know.
00:06:31
Speaker
Almost all men can kill almost all women with their bare hands.
00:06:34
Speaker
And the reverse is not true.
00:06:35
Speaker
And then you also combine that with the fact that women are different from men on average in quite a few psychological domains.
00:06:42
Speaker
But most impertinent to this instance is the fact that we are less, we're lower in sociosexuality than men is what psychologists call it.
00:06:49
Speaker
So that's basically your interest in having casual sex and having lots of partners and experimenting sexually and all of that kind of stuff.
00:06:56
Speaker
There is crossover.
00:06:57
Speaker
There are some women who are high in it.
00:06:59
Speaker
It's not an absolute thing by any means, but on average, men are significantly higher in that trait than are women.
00:07:06
Speaker
I thought it was interesting because from looking back at old, and this is my perception as a millennial of older feminist texts and the push towards swinging and the rise of the playboy culture, that it was very much based around the idea that free of the sexual restrictions of conservatism, that women's sexuality would be
00:07:25
Speaker
akin to men's that like, we are just like men, our sexuality is just like men, and we would be fucking random people and doing all the things they do.
00:07:34
Speaker
And we can do all the things they do.
00:07:36
Speaker
And that to suggest otherwise is anti-feminist.
00:07:39
Speaker
You don't believe women can make their own choices.
00:07:41
Speaker
And that any suggestion that women's sexuality might be fundamentally not as depraved even, or that like, even without the conservative umbrella, that women might actually prefer
00:07:53
Speaker
more like pro-social types of sex instead of like this, you know, random encounters was met with this idea or like almost a defensiveness and especially from the women who were put forth as like our sex positive role models.
00:08:05
Speaker
And that's a lot of like young ex and the older half of my
00:08:09
Speaker
millennials, where they were really defensive.
00:08:11
Speaker
Like, you can't shame women who are really hypersexual.
00:08:14
Speaker
You don't know what's going
Critiques of Sex Positivity
00:08:15
Speaker
on with them.
00:08:15
Speaker
And then like, as they get older into their 30s, it's like a lot of them started to admit like, oh, actually, I was processing a ton of trauma.
00:08:22
Speaker
And that type of hypersexual behavior was a manifestation of self-harm.
00:08:28
Speaker
But it's like, it took a long time.
00:08:29
Speaker
And I don't fault people for like not understanding themselves and completely, but it does seem like those types of voices were purposely elevated both in the media, which we know is run by scrolls,
00:08:38
Speaker
But also among feminist circles at the expense of people like Gail Dines, who was kind of like, you know, a little bit more cautious or a little bit more nuanced about it.
00:08:46
Speaker
And I just have to wonder, like, what was that kind of like, why were they so antagonist against women who were a little more nuanced about like porn, sexual or like a sense of sexual balance?
00:08:56
Speaker
And we can kind of see the same thing today when people talk about swerves, etc.
00:08:58
Speaker
There's just like this vitriolic anger against women who might suggest like maybe there's more to look at here rather than like the party line.
00:09:05
Speaker
What's with all the prude hatred?
00:09:07
Speaker
Why are prudes so hated?
00:09:09
Speaker
Prude phobia.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's the prude hatred.
00:09:11
Speaker
And it's nowadays it's swerf and turfs.
00:09:14
Speaker
And it's like, there's no discussion.
00:09:16
Speaker
It's just shut the fuck up.
00:09:17
Speaker
Like you're ruining feminism for us.
00:09:19
Speaker
And I'm like, but isn't there room for it?
00:09:21
Speaker
But this happened among millennials.
00:09:23
Speaker
And like, now we're dealing with the fallout of basically de-platforming all the sex positive, but sex critical feminists.
00:09:30
Speaker
I just remembered when he was saying this, I want to get onto this, where's prude phobia come from?
00:09:34
Speaker
But I just remembered this piece that was in the New York Times last year.
00:09:37
Speaker
I can't remember exactly what the piece was about, but it was something to do with the sex positive something.
00:09:42
Speaker
And in the comments underneath, the comment that had been picked by the New York Times readers, editors, as like, you know, the starred comment.
00:09:50
Speaker
was apparently a woman saying, yes, my daughter is extremely sexually liberated.
00:09:55
Speaker
When she goes jogging in the park, she will sometimes pick up a man and go have sex in the bushes and then continue on her jog.
00:10:02
Speaker
And I personally read that and I was like, this is a lie written by a man.
00:10:08
Speaker
I do not believe this comment.
00:10:10
Speaker
By a rapist who stalks the park looking for women who are going for jogs.
00:10:14
Speaker
That's a confession of guilt.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, this is 100% not... What mother would write that about her daughter and also just know this is a lie?
00:10:23
Speaker
But I thought it was so interesting that the New York Times picked it as its starred comment because that's apparently the ideal.
00:10:28
Speaker
This is what liberated sexuality looks like.
00:10:30
Speaker
Because that is the fundamental mistake.
00:10:33
Speaker
insane.
00:10:34
Speaker
What I find so disingenuous about that is like, on the other hand, we'll talk about safe sex, right?
00:10:40
Speaker
This is like where I feel like they can't make a decision between what they want to do because it's important to practice safe sex, but also, yay, have sex with random people in the bushes you don't know.
00:10:49
Speaker
Do you remember during COVID where there was the guidance on how to have safe sex during COVID and it was like, always wear a mask, don't face your partner?
00:10:57
Speaker
Which is insane, right?
00:11:00
Speaker
Use a glory hole, that kind of stuff.
00:11:02
Speaker
It was so stupid because it's like you're literally like touching bodies already.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, you won't get COVID.
00:11:10
Speaker
You will get half a dozen other things.
00:11:14
Speaker
So this question of proofobia, am I curious as well about why I think it's worse in America?
00:11:18
Speaker
I think it's harder to do things like criticise porn in America than it is in the UK.
00:11:22
Speaker
At least, well, I don't know, I seem to be getting away with it.
00:11:24
Speaker
But my impression is it's harder for American feminists.
00:11:27
Speaker
And I think that's to do with the fact that there's this real fear of being aligned in any way with the Christian right.
00:11:34
Speaker
And you don't want to accidentally say something that would suggest that you might agree with them on anything, even if they are actually right on something like porn.
00:11:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
So maybe that's what it is.
00:11:44
Speaker
I mean, that's exactly what they do.
00:11:45
Speaker
They say, if you are critical of any of these things, even like card carrying long-term feminists, suddenly you're aligned with the Christian right.
00:11:53
Speaker
And you want these people to die and you hate everyone.
00:11:56
Speaker
You're slut shaming.
00:11:57
Speaker
You hate everyone.
00:11:57
Speaker
You're kink shaming.
00:11:58
Speaker
Even though we probably kink shame a lot of the original, like
00:12:01
Speaker
feminist people who were things like BDS critical, like they were very careful to talk about it from the perspective of like power dynamics, et cetera.
00:12:09
Speaker
Now, and now we're having that conversation while we're talking about consent and me too.
00:12:13
Speaker
But a lot of these things were started, you know, a generation ago and got lost in translation because I like to call them like pick me sexuals.
00:12:21
Speaker
A lot of these women who just like wanted to be like the baddest sex positive bitch on the block who's down for anything, you know, wherever, whenever, you
00:12:28
Speaker
It's like they wanted to take the spotlight and get all the attention.
00:12:32
Speaker
And then it's just sort of drowned out a lot of the more reasonable issues.
00:12:36
Speaker
Now, like the problem is, is like now those of us who've either lived through it or experiencing now, we're like, what the hell happened?
00:12:42
Speaker
And like, why are all these guys really gross porn sick?
00:12:44
Speaker
And we're not any more sexually satisfied than we were, than maybe our mothers were.
00:12:49
Speaker
I think also the media ecosystem encourages the sex positive stuff.
00:12:52
Speaker
Definitely.
00:12:53
Speaker
Because it's very readable.
00:12:54
Speaker
And I think also that if you look around at anyone who's writing a column about sex, there aren't any, it's just me really, who's writing like the brutish stuff.
00:13:03
Speaker
And I would never ever write about my own sex life as a rule, because I think it would be unhealthy to do that.
00:13:08
Speaker
I think it's like important to have boundaries and to not expose my husband, you know.
00:13:13
Speaker
So kind of by definition, if you're going around writing about your own sex life, you probably don't have very healthy boundaries and you're willing to expose your partner to public scrutiny in a way that he probably wouldn't appreciate.
00:13:24
Speaker
It's also kind of need interesting anecdotes.
00:13:26
Speaker
It can't just be like, oh, we have like, you know, like nice vanilla sex a couple of times a week isn't very interesting.
00:13:32
Speaker
You need to be having lots of like exciting sexual encounters.
00:13:34
Speaker
So if you go to any of these magazines that have like a sex columnist, you're going to get the really sex positive stuff.
00:13:40
Speaker
Although interesting that there was a, I can't remember her name now off the top of my head, but the woman who writes a sex column for Vogue, where she does often write this sort of, you know, the empowering narrative around having casual sex.
00:13:50
Speaker
She wrote a really sad article about how porn has affected her recently, which was actually really moving.
00:13:57
Speaker
And I mean, she didn't come to the conclusion, the right conclusion in my mind, that actually this whole, the whole thing is, is terrible.
00:14:04
Speaker
She's not there yet, you know, but clearly actually she's not happy.
00:14:10
Speaker
doing all of this.
00:14:10
Speaker
And it is clearly coming from a place of insecurity and trauma, but you get a lot of clicks from this content.
00:14:16
Speaker
And to be honest, from exploiting young women talking about their intimate lives.
00:14:20
Speaker
And it also gives the impression that that's normal and aspirational.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:24
Speaker
I mean, we've made the comment that there's no qualifications to be like a sex positive educator.
00:14:30
Speaker
And it shows.
00:14:30
Speaker
I mean, honestly, like you're almost like toggling between women who are
00:14:35
Speaker
deeply mentally ill, some of them.
00:14:36
Speaker
Like, in fact, there was like this sex positive feminist who I think I can't remember her name exactly, but she was like struggling with bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder.
00:14:45
Speaker
And while she's doing this, she's having like the sex in the bushes with random men encounters and then saying like, this is really powering for me and I'm taking control of my sexuality.
00:14:55
Speaker
And it's like nobody at the magazine said like, maybe this is a manifestation of
00:14:59
Speaker
her struggling mental illness, right?
00:15:01
Speaker
It feels so exploitative when you watch it.
00:15:03
Speaker
Cause like
Dating Dynamics and Gender Roles
00:15:04
Speaker
on first glance, I'm like, wow, like she's really, really lying to us about these encounters.
00:15:08
Speaker
And like, sometimes she'll admit it later, like, oh, it wasn't that great.
00:15:11
Speaker
But then it's like, well, she's also kind of lying to herself because she's in the middle of a mental illness.
00:15:14
Speaker
So I can't exactly blame her because she doesn't have that perspective, but it's like the people who run the magazines have that perspective or they should.
00:15:22
Speaker
Well, they don't care about it.
00:15:25
Speaker
Or they're making money.
00:15:27
Speaker
A lot of these magazines are owned by rich old guys.
00:15:30
Speaker
And then, yeah, like you said, Louise, they're exploiting young women writers, you know, trauma dumping, essentially.
00:15:37
Speaker
And often not paying them very much as well.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:39
Speaker
They're making like $20,000 a year working for, I don't know, Buzzfeed or something, talking about, you know, the horrible sexual traumas they've been through as a result of, you know, hypersexual culture.
00:15:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:50
Speaker
I mean, there was this great piece by Sarah Dytam, I think in Unheard, a year or two ago, about all these, most of them young women, who would write these really exposing pieces, like first-hand pieces for places like Jezebel, back when this was really voguish, it's a bit less so now, about lurid sexual experiences or other things.
00:16:09
Speaker
There was a woman I remember who wrote something about having sex with her dad, like really grim, really exposing stuff with the potential to blow up their lives.
00:16:17
Speaker
And they'd get paid like $100 or something.
00:16:20
Speaker
And in the hope that it would lead to a media career, which it of course didn't.
00:16:25
Speaker
The way that the market works in journalism is absolutely not geared towards like, there isn't really an HR department for freelancers of any kind.
00:16:34
Speaker
So if you're willing to say anything or something that would cause people to click on the article, then they'll platform you because it's just shocking enough to get people to pay attention.
00:16:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:44
Speaker
And I think the sex positive stuff generates clicks.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yes.
00:16:48
Speaker
The other thing that we've noticed, at least now that we have like this podcast, is just how monetizable it is.
00:16:53
Speaker
Meaning like if we wanted to sell like different types of supplements and dildos and all these types of things, like it's
00:16:59
Speaker
Because that's the kind of thing that we get all the time.
00:17:02
Speaker
And from other podcasters or sex educators who want to come on our podcast and talk about whatever they're doing, which is just generally, generally, it's like, I went through all this trauma, and my boyfriend's a scrote, but here's how I rationalize it to be okay with it.
00:17:15
Speaker
So now I'm a sex educator.
00:17:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:18
Speaker
And I'm telling you, like, that's the script every time.
00:17:20
Speaker
It's like, I went through a spiritual healing journey after my boyfriend cheated on me and then realized that we were better off in a polyamorous relationship.
00:17:27
Speaker
So now I'm, you know, I want to come to your podcast and talk about it.
00:17:30
Speaker
And like, that's, that's the market.
00:17:31
Speaker
And when I look at this, I'm like, yeah, I can see why this became really popular because like, there's so many products you can sell.
00:17:37
Speaker
There's so many people willing to sell their trauma for very little money.
00:17:41
Speaker
So, you know, is it art imitating life or life imitating art at this point?
00:17:45
Speaker
Because, you
00:17:46
Speaker
There's enough women who are willing to do this that I can also see the magazines being like, well, there's all these women out here that want to talk about their experiences.
00:17:52
Speaker
Let's talk about it.
00:17:54
Speaker
I don't know what chicken or egg situation.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:57
Speaker
I think the sex positive thing is attractive when you are in this situation where women are in this really pornified culture and they're competing for a minority of men.
00:18:09
Speaker
So we know from things like dating apps that the most attractive, I think on Tinder, it's something like the most attractive 10% of men are getting 60% of the likes from women.
00:18:20
Speaker
And what that means essentially is that in that kind of casual sex market, those men can have their pick of the bunch and they can be demanding and expect pornified sex and expect choking and expect sex on a first date and all this stuff that we know that women in general don't prefer.
00:18:35
Speaker
But you end up with this very kind of masculinized environment sexually.
00:18:39
Speaker
I mean, what men often say is like, oh, but I'm not getting any.
00:18:41
Speaker
Like, yeah, I know.
00:18:42
Speaker
Like, it's very unequal.
00:18:44
Speaker
But it is still men who are pretty much assessing the terms.
00:18:47
Speaker
And women have that feeling that they have to go through the casual sex phase in order to get to a committed relationship, which is what they want.
00:18:54
Speaker
And so they're ending up being having these horrible relationships, brief relationships with men who treat them really badly.
00:19:00
Speaker
And you can see why the sex positive thing would be appealing if you feel like you're stuck in that rut, because it's a way of rationalizing your experiences to make them seem like you've chosen them and like they're not painful.
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah, cope.
00:19:13
Speaker
Cope, yeah.
00:19:14
Speaker
Hashtag cope.
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:16
Speaker
Cope's such a good word.
00:19:17
Speaker
It really summons up so much.
00:19:19
Speaker
As with so much internet slang, it actually has a really deep meaning.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:24
Speaker
The whole thing is cope.
00:19:25
Speaker
As we're kind of unpacking what happened, what do you think is the push for the future?
00:19:32
Speaker
Because in a couple of different ways, we can attack this question because the first one obviously is, is it true?
00:19:37
Speaker
And if it is true, we're in trouble as a species that even without the...
00:19:43
Speaker
invention of dating apps, like, is it true that only women are really only attracted to a small minority of men?
00:19:49
Speaker
Or is it just like a dating app problem where the dating app leans itself to that type of behavior?
00:19:54
Speaker
Because I feel like if we're at the point where 80 to 90% of the male population is unacceptable to at least a large percentage of women, then something's basically got
00:20:05
Speaker
I'll tell you from the FDS perspective and how we've thought about it is like, we need to start just being brutally honest to their face about why they suck.
00:20:11
Speaker
Because I think part of it is like them living in a bubble for so long about what women actually want, like an ego protective bubble that everyone builds for men.
00:20:20
Speaker
partially know why it's because all these incels freak out if you give them the slightest criticisms and because men are much more likely to vote with their dollars against something that disrespects them.
00:20:31
Speaker
Whereas like women just like absorb the disrespect so easily.
00:20:34
Speaker
It's one of the most more frustrating things about watching the difference between how men and women interact with anything really, but as a consumer, if a man gets up on, you know, writes an article or gets up on television or says something and says to men like,
00:20:48
Speaker
okay, if you're not sexually attractive to women, you need to watch your weight and put on... Here's buy some new clothes here.
00:20:55
Speaker
And basically tell them grooming habits or different types of interactions that are more positive.
00:21:00
Speaker
Then men will be like, fuck that guy.
00:21:02
Speaker
Turn off the television.
00:21:03
Speaker
Decide they're perfect.
00:21:04
Speaker
And it's women that are the problem.
00:21:06
Speaker
But if you gender reverse that and you have a woman dating coach come on and be like,
00:21:10
Speaker
girls, just make sure your pictures look nice and put on lipstick and dye your hair blonde or something like the old school rules where it was all about trying to make yourself look like a specified dream girl.
00:21:20
Speaker
You'll see women just be like, okay, I got to do that.
00:21:22
Speaker
So the difficulty is that how do you reach men to say like, you guys aren't cutting it and you need to evolve a lot faster than you are if you want to actually be able to secure any type of relationship in this current market?
00:21:38
Speaker
It's also an economic story as well, isn't it?
00:21:40
Speaker
Because you've got more and more men who are unemployed or earning less than women on average and are just not attractive life partners on that basis.
00:21:51
Speaker
arguably their own fault to a certain extent.
00:21:53
Speaker
Like, okay, so this is my side note rant.
00:21:55
Speaker
But some of it is just like in the US, especially a lot of manufacturing jobs and jobs used to be solid middle class, working class jobs for men to provide for family, they've gone overseas.
00:22:04
Speaker
And that I agree with.
00:22:05
Speaker
But the other thing is like, they're not competing in the new marketplace, meaning like getting education and figuring out how to adapt their skills in the new marketplace to the extent that women are.
00:22:14
Speaker
So the question is like,
00:22:15
Speaker
Is it our fault, you know, or like, is it their fault for not adapting or what do we do?
00:22:21
Speaker
Or is it just like reality?
00:22:23
Speaker
I mean, in the West, we've shifted so much towards a knowledge and service-based economy, which in service-based economy in particular is really well suited to things that women on average are better at.
00:22:32
Speaker
Like there are some of the traits on which men and women differ.
00:22:35
Speaker
One is sociosexuality.
00:22:36
Speaker
Another is agreeableness.
00:22:38
Speaker
Women are more agreeable than men quite considerably.
00:22:41
Speaker
Again, by average, but you know, it's like a clear trend.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:44
Speaker
Not me, damn it.
00:22:45
Speaker
No.
00:22:47
Speaker
I've always had a soft spot for disagreeable women personally, but like, but the normal feminine behavior is very agreeable.
00:22:53
Speaker
Right.
00:22:54
Speaker
And there are some situations in which that's really advantageous.
00:22:58
Speaker
And one of them is, you know, working in say retail or call centers and things like that, where actually women are at an advantage.
00:23:05
Speaker
And in lots of knowledge, you know, all these kind of laptop jobs, it doesn't matter whether a worker is male or female up until a woman has children.
00:23:12
Speaker
And then she obviously have earnings fall off a cliff.
00:23:14
Speaker
But the economy has just utterly changed.
00:23:16
Speaker
And it doesn't seem likely that it's going to change back, even if we wanted to.
00:23:20
Speaker
So, so yeah, men are contending with that problem.
00:23:22
Speaker
I think probably the agreeableness gap also is an explanation for why men are more resistant in general to those kind of dating tips, whereas women just absorb it.
00:23:30
Speaker
And similarly, why women are so amazingly sometimes accepting of men's terrible behaviour in relationships.
00:23:38
Speaker
I think a lot of it comes down to agreeableness.
00:23:40
Speaker
So that's the Jordan Peterson argument, which I find interesting that there's a little bit of convergence on that, because that's that's a lot of the same things that he said about like, oh, women are more agreeable and this and that.
00:23:51
Speaker
I think the centralized question of that is like, is it entirely nature or is it nurture to a certain extent?
00:23:57
Speaker
I think it's something that gets sort of, it's a difference that gets exaggerated by culture.
00:24:02
Speaker
Like girl school culture is just sort of an exaggerated version of all feminine traits, you know what I mean?
00:24:09
Speaker
Like you're encouraged to be more agreeable.
00:24:12
Speaker
Of course, it comes with other forms of indirect aggression.
00:24:15
Speaker
But sorry, the question at the beginning was what do we do about the 80% of men who are apparently really unattractive?
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:21
Speaker
I mean, it seems like they've just devolved into porn and video games, things that are very easy for them to win at and engage in.
00:24:28
Speaker
And like women are just as they disengage with life.
00:24:30
Speaker
I think women are just sort of more stringent because like at that point, you're just dead weight.
00:24:34
Speaker
It's not even like a there's no benefit at that point.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:38
Speaker
And I mean, for some women, it's all a good news story.
00:24:40
Speaker
It's that actually it is now much easier to just live as a single woman for your whole life.
00:24:46
Speaker
And you don't need to have a relationship with a crappy man, whereas you might historically have ended up with one.
00:24:51
Speaker
So I think that there are absolutely women who are better off as a consequence of all of these changes.
00:24:55
Speaker
A lot of these men probably could be a lot better, but there don't seem to be the incentives in place for them to make themselves
Female Supremacy and Societal Impacts
00:25:04
Speaker
better.
00:25:04
Speaker
And they're not just in terms of things like grooming, they're things like the allure of video games and porn.
00:25:10
Speaker
which I think they're both products that are so maladaptive, porn in particular, but video games too, because they're so designed to hijack the young male brain, which is seeking out adventure and conflict and sexual stimulation and so on.
00:25:27
Speaker
They're sort of driven towards.
00:25:29
Speaker
And these products just take that drive and suck these men in, and they basically will end up, in the worst cases, having just no interest in anything else in real life.
00:25:38
Speaker
Yeah, the powers that be are probably very excited about that because we probably would have had two or three revolutions.
00:25:45
Speaker
If they weren't so distracted with porn and video games.
00:25:48
Speaker
And we've made the argument that this is the perfect time for women to take over.
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah, the female supremacy argument.
00:25:53
Speaker
We keep coming back to female supremacy because, I mean, that's my vision for the future.
00:25:58
Speaker
I mean, men are dropping out of, you know,
00:26:00
Speaker
careers and university at record highs.
00:26:03
Speaker
Their dopamine receptors are getting fried by porn and video games.
00:26:06
Speaker
They don't have the willpower or determination or motivation or just drive to do anything except jerk off and play video games.
00:26:13
Speaker
So that's going to pacify them.
00:26:14
Speaker
Honestly, that's going to prevent them from becoming terrorists.
00:26:17
Speaker
Like, you know, at least not, you know, it'll quell some of their violent tendencies maybe or divert them.
00:26:22
Speaker
It just seems like it's getting more randomized, right?
00:26:25
Speaker
Like, and rather than a cohesive... No, but the economy is favoring women, right?
00:26:29
Speaker
We're getting, like, we're witnessing the decline of men and the rise of women.
00:26:33
Speaker
That's what we're in the middle of.
00:26:34
Speaker
So I don't think it all has to be all doom and gloom.
00:26:37
Speaker
Like, oh, how do we change things back?
00:26:39
Speaker
Oh, everything's terrible.
00:26:40
Speaker
Like, you know, how do we change things back?
00:26:41
Speaker
No, we got to look towards the future and what the future holds is even better for women.
00:26:45
Speaker
Trust me.
00:26:46
Speaker
What are your thoughts on the female supremacy argument, Louise?
00:26:49
Speaker
I'm curious.
00:26:50
Speaker
What if we're just better than them?
00:26:54
Speaker
Because like, no one ever wants to ask that question.
00:26:57
Speaker
Yeah, I just think women are cognitively superior to men, honestly, at this point.
00:27:01
Speaker
The only reason men have been more successful is because they're bigger than us, and they didn't have the burden of pregnancy.
00:27:07
Speaker
But as you know, women have been able to control that, and that the jobs have shifted from physical strength being a premium, it's like they've lost everything that they were good at, so to speak.
00:27:16
Speaker
They've lost their advantages and women are gaining more advantages.
00:27:20
Speaker
And, you know, it's unfortunate that a lot of women are not going to find a partner.
00:27:24
Speaker
You know, a lot of women are going to be single, but that's not so bad.
00:27:26
Speaker
I mean, again, you know, there's lots of studies now saying that single women are the happiest demographic.
00:27:30
Speaker
So, you know, who's really losing?
00:27:33
Speaker
And like post-World War II, they had the same problem, right?
00:27:35
Speaker
It's not like it's not been throughout history, especially with wars and stuff, that there's been a surplus of women versus men.
00:27:41
Speaker
In this case, it's like there's a surplus of, quote, eligible women versus eligible men, but there's no excuse for a war for that to be the case.
00:27:49
Speaker
So the bigger question is like, yeah, we have 80% of the population that's unattractive to women and they're not being shipped off to a war somewhere where they can be preoccupied.
00:27:59
Speaker
Like what's next?
00:28:00
Speaker
Like, what do we do with them?
00:28:01
Speaker
Like, what's the next step?
00:28:04
Speaker
What are your thoughts, Louise?
00:28:05
Speaker
There's a lot there.
00:28:07
Speaker
I think it is absolutely true that there are some women who are probably just better off on their own.
00:28:11
Speaker
And, you know, historically, that have always been, like, that's what nunneries were for.
00:28:15
Speaker
I mean, nunneries were for lots of things.
00:28:16
Speaker
But, like, actually, if you read about life in nunneries in previous centuries, it actually sounds great.
00:28:22
Speaker
In many cases, it was actually, like, a pretty good option.
00:28:25
Speaker
Just gardening, reading, hanging out with your besties.
00:28:27
Speaker
Like, what's not to love?
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, a bit of like lesbianism occasionally, like great.
00:28:32
Speaker
And I think that, so it should always be available, you know, for some women, like the uncoupled life is completely legitimate as a route, but most women don't want that.
00:28:42
Speaker
Something that has to be accommodated within the female supremacy blueprint is if people stop having children, it's going to last a maximum of 100 years, this utopian vision, and then it's just going to die out.
00:28:54
Speaker
And also people do mostly want to have children.
00:28:57
Speaker
It's something like 95% of women say that they want to have children and whether or not, you know, some second waivers would argue that that's sort of inculcated by patriarchy.
00:29:06
Speaker
I think it's probably a much more instinctive desire than that.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, people want things that are bad for them all the time.
00:29:13
Speaker
Like people want like drugs sometimes.
00:29:15
Speaker
I don't know.
00:29:15
Speaker
Some people want drugs.
00:29:16
Speaker
Some people want to eat cake or whatever, right?
00:29:18
Speaker
Like it's very normal to want things that are bad for you, right?
00:29:21
Speaker
We wouldn't survive as a species if women didn't want to have children beyond all rationality.
00:29:27
Speaker
I don't think that there's any species that would survive if there wasn't like a strong instinct for women to or for the females of the species to procreate.
00:29:36
Speaker
Well, mostly people have a drive to have sex and then kind of biology does the rest.
00:29:40
Speaker
But I mean, women definitely have a drive towards like caring for their children.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:45
Speaker
I mean, I guess you could say, well, let's go out on a high.
00:29:47
Speaker
Let's like have a hundred years of female supremacy and then just like, yes, immolate as a species.
00:29:54
Speaker
Hashtag, let's start that on Twitter.
00:29:55
Speaker
Hashtag a hundred years of female supremacy.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like humans, we pollute the environment too much.
00:30:02
Speaker
You know, we're just microplastics everywhere.
00:30:03
Speaker
We're all pretty much fucked environmentally.
00:30:05
Speaker
So, I mean, yeah, let's go out on a high note.
00:30:07
Speaker
Burnout.
00:30:08
Speaker
It's a coherent take.
00:30:09
Speaker
I will give you that.
00:30:10
Speaker
It's got, it's got, it's like, yeah, internally consistent.
00:30:14
Speaker
If we do, though, want the species to last beyond 100 years, I guess we do have to find a way for men and women to get along.
00:30:21
Speaker
I mean, there clearly is a minority of men who I think really should be in prison.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:30:27
Speaker
That's why I say work camps, like send them to...
00:30:29
Speaker
Send them to work camps so they can rebuild our crumbling infrastructure.
00:30:33
Speaker
They can create something positive, right?
00:30:35
Speaker
I feel like they would be happier working.
00:30:37
Speaker
Like, it's not like it doesn't drive anybody crazy being behind bars 24-7.
00:30:41
Speaker
So a lot of, like, prisoners are actually happy to do work as long as it's not, like, you know, abusive.
00:30:45
Speaker
So, I mean, whatever, like, percentage it is of men who are so sexually violent that they just cannot.
00:30:53
Speaker
You know, I'm a straightforward carceral feminist.
00:30:56
Speaker
I'm quite happy to wear that label, yeah.
00:30:58
Speaker
I think not enough men are in prison, honestly.
00:31:00
Speaker
I think the wrong types of men are in prison.
00:31:03
Speaker
Like they weigh, you know, sex crimes, crimes against women and children are not punished nearly enough.
00:31:09
Speaker
Drug crimes.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah, you don't need to go 20 years in jail for like weed.
00:31:13
Speaker
That's stupid.
00:31:14
Speaker
America is actually way too carceral on the stupidest things because I think we do have like the largest prison population in the world.
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, we'd want to have a lot more violence against women convictions, right?
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:28
Speaker
So it's like, it's very lax when it comes to certain types of crimes.
00:31:31
Speaker
And to me, it's just like 100% a function of most of our governance being men, as well as the judicial system, mostly being men.
00:31:39
Speaker
And then like a few pick me women they let through.
00:31:41
Speaker
Yeah, but that's changing too.
00:31:42
Speaker
Women are surpassing men in law.
00:31:44
Speaker
We can like join the legal field en masse and reshape the laws to our benefit, increase the penalties for sex crimes against women.
00:31:52
Speaker
You can play at that game, right?
00:31:53
Speaker
That's just, we can change that strategy for our benefit too.
00:31:56
Speaker
Right.
00:31:57
Speaker
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Speaker
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Masculine vs Feminine Traits
00:33:15
Speaker
On the female supremacy point, do you not think that there are kind of, so it's fairly obvious, I think, to all of us what masculine flaws are, right?
00:33:23
Speaker
The main one being violence.
00:33:24
Speaker
I mean, the masculine aggression is clearly evolved in a context where it's directed at other men in competition for resources and also potentially at like animals and stuff.
00:33:35
Speaker
But it's completely maladaptive in modern society where we're trying to keep the peace, you know.
00:33:40
Speaker
And there are some men who are so hyper-aggressive that they're really, really antisocial.
00:33:44
Speaker
So that clearly is a masculine flaw and there are others.
00:33:47
Speaker
Do you not think that there are feminine flaws as well?
00:33:49
Speaker
And that there is to some extent a sort of balance to be struck between the two sets of virtues and sins?
00:33:56
Speaker
Opening that up to the room.
00:33:58
Speaker
Do women have flaws?
00:33:59
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:00
Speaker
But I think that women as a whole are much better at controlling those flaws.
00:34:05
Speaker
The main reason being that men have a tendency to externalize blame.
00:34:08
Speaker
Women have a tendency to internalize blame.
00:34:10
Speaker
That's actually a flaw that I feel is actually a double-edged sword because for women, the ability to accept responsibility is the first step to improving yourself and fixing that problem.
00:34:22
Speaker
But also women accept blame for things that are not even our fault, like
00:34:26
Speaker
it's taken to the extreme.
00:34:27
Speaker
So that's one, I think, feminine flaw, whether that's like a female thing or a socialization thing.
00:34:33
Speaker
I'm not really sure, but probably has to do with the agreeableness, right?
00:34:37
Speaker
I have a theory that Twitter is an extremely feminine environment because you can't possibly use physical violence on Twitter, right, by its nature.
00:34:45
Speaker
You can't use masculine means of aggression, so you have to use feminine means of aggression, which are to do with gossip, spreading rumors about people behind their backs, yeah, exclusion.
00:34:55
Speaker
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I've experienced that on Twitter, but I rise above.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if you're going to choose between direct and direct aggression, you might well choose the latter.
00:35:03
Speaker
I don't know, though.
00:35:05
Speaker
Would you rather be, like, ostracised from your community or punched in the face?
00:35:08
Speaker
It's a bit of a...
00:35:10
Speaker
It's actually quite a tricky choice.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:13
Speaker
Okay.
00:35:13
Speaker
So I kind of see where you're going with it.
00:35:15
Speaker
It's like there's much higher social control that women both exert as well as experience and obey.
00:35:23
Speaker
For whatever reason, women are much more willing or they're less willing to step outside of the societal norms because they're more likely to acquiesce to
00:35:34
Speaker
needing these like interpersonal relationships in a way that men are not because like the quote unquote disagreeableness of men, they're more likely to be like, fuck this.
00:35:41
Speaker
And then just like, you know, do their own thing.
00:35:43
Speaker
I guess.
00:35:44
Speaker
Okay.
00:35:44
Speaker
So the balance between men and women, is there like a way of, is there flaws in the feminine model?
00:35:49
Speaker
I'll have two points about this.
00:35:50
Speaker
The first point is that what I find difficult to parse out when we discuss this is like how much of like the feminine flaws are caused by patriarchy because so much of like, when you look at like the women who are in prison, for example, so much of it is like them protecting men or meaning like I took a charge for my boyfriend because he was a drug dealer or them getting involved in like nefarious things that men started and they're more or less like just going along with it rather than necessarily being like the initiators of some of the more toxic
00:36:19
Speaker
types of relational issues or like toxic types of effects on, you know, the people around them.
00:36:26
Speaker
That being said, there's like the types of illnesses that are uniquely female, or at least mostly female, like Munchausen's by proxy and stuff like where women clearly like they need attention and martyrdom so bad and like emotional validation that they'll literally poison their children to get it.
00:36:41
Speaker
And I feel like that is a type of covert narcissism and like a feminine flaw that I guess I'm questioning, like, is that something that would be necessarily balanced by men who probably just wouldn't?
00:36:52
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think men improve.
00:36:54
Speaker
They probably just abandon the kit, you know what I mean?
00:36:56
Speaker
And then like seek glory and emotional validation other ways.
00:36:59
Speaker
What I'm trying to figure out is like, okay, if we have feminine flaws, how so are they balanced out by what men are doing?
00:37:05
Speaker
Are they just, it seems like they're most of the time made worse.
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:08
Speaker
No, I think men that make them worse, like toxic moms.
00:37:11
Speaker
Like that's another one that comes up a lot in FDS is a lot of FDSers we've noticed have like toxic mothers, including myself.
00:37:17
Speaker
And so I had a tweet the other day that was very polarizing where I said like motherhood is the only socially acceptable role where women have like absolute control over another person.
00:37:29
Speaker
And like, I feel like my mom definitely like exploited that power dynamic.
00:37:34
Speaker
you know, a lot of people have amazing moms and like, I'm really happy for them.
00:37:38
Speaker
Right.
00:37:38
Speaker
But, and I'm looking at the toxic moms and like, what role did the dad play in it?
00:37:41
Speaker
Like, did the dad actually like reduce the suffering on the child or did they just sort of like turn a blind eye and like, or even facilitate it in some ways.
00:37:49
Speaker
Right.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:50
Speaker
And so often it's like about them trying to get that man in the first place.
00:37:54
Speaker
And you look at like Jeanette McCurdy's new book about I'm glad my mom's dead or, you know, she's talking about the fact that like so much of it is like her mom wanting to like present a certain image to the male execs at Nickelodeon or like her wanting to force her daughter to be sexualized, to be agreeable and appealing to men.
00:38:12
Speaker
It's not necessarily like to her, right?
00:38:14
Speaker
Which is really, really a weird thing when you're talking about toxic moms, because so much of it's like them just being pick me's and then downloading that into their kids.
00:38:22
Speaker
And so we're like, if you take out the male element, like what else would women be pick me's for?
00:38:26
Speaker
But it's like almost all of it is them just trying to like kiss some guy's ass and like being toxic in the pursuit of a man.
00:38:32
Speaker
Female and sexual competition.
00:38:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's like most of it.
00:38:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:39
Speaker
So I don't think that men are necessarily like preventing toxic femininity.
00:38:43
Speaker
In like a media organisation, let's say, which is where I have personal experience, it used to be that newsrooms were 100% male, right?
00:38:50
Speaker
And you'd have, apparently, according to like television, you'd have people constantly shouting and swearing at each other and really sort of
00:38:58
Speaker
macho posturing competitive behaviors all this very masculine energy in the room whereas now that's less likely to be true but then what you read about particularly in liberal media outlets is new kinds of aggression so no one's swearing at each other on the on the newsroom floor but you have like uh slack channels ostracizing particular people you've got all sorts of like covert behavior trying to muscle people out and
00:39:25
Speaker
And, you know, it's just like a different form of aggression.
00:39:27
Speaker
It's just not necessarily as obvious, which is why I wonder if it's been a long dream of feminists, right?
00:39:34
Speaker
Like, you know, if we had a society that was completely run by women, we wouldn't have any more wars.
00:39:39
Speaker
We wouldn't have any more conflict and problems.
00:39:41
Speaker
I think that's probably not true.
00:39:43
Speaker
I think we'd have different types of conflict, different means of...
00:39:46
Speaker
More Cold Wars, maybe.
00:39:48
Speaker
I think we would die in a lot less stupid hills because the male sexual aggression or a tendency towards aggression, and we've talked about this, makes them die in a lot of very stupid hills for no reason because they're terrible at risk management.
00:40:00
Speaker
I think we would have way less conflict because you wouldn't see as much just dying on like taking devil's advocate
00:40:07
Speaker
just to do it.
00:40:08
Speaker
For whatever reason, like men are more compelled to take those types of risks and then never ever do an about face if they're wrong.
00:40:15
Speaker
It's weird.
00:40:15
Speaker
They don't mind being ostracized from the group as much as women do.
00:40:18
Speaker
We probably wouldn't have gone to the moon without like a really masculine society.
00:40:23
Speaker
But then arguably, what was the point of going to the moon?
00:40:26
Speaker
So you might say, oh, fine, whatever.
00:40:28
Speaker
Don't do that kind of crazy, risky stuff that is very, seems to be very embedded in the male mind.
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah, I find it really interesting, like the masculinity and femininity in a culture.
00:40:39
Speaker
I know a guy who shot himself just to know what it felt like.
00:40:41
Speaker
So that's like how men think, right?
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:44
Speaker
No one would ever, ever do that.
00:40:46
Speaker
The curiosity.
00:40:47
Speaker
So it's like, it's stuff like that.
00:40:48
Speaker
It's like, I want to go to the moon just to do it.
00:40:50
Speaker
So, and that's why women live longer because men are more likely to just take risks just to do it or because they want to feel what it feels like.
00:40:58
Speaker
But there's something like that in the male mind.
00:41:00
Speaker
If you hear of like an extremely stupid thing or the Darwin Awards are almost like entirely men because they're just doing shit just to do it.
00:41:07
Speaker
And so while I think overall, we might not have as many of the big wins, but I don't think we'd have as many of the catastrophic losses, right?
00:41:14
Speaker
Because for, you know, putting a man on the moon, we also had like Hitler and the Holocaust, right?
00:41:18
Speaker
Like the impetus for men to, you know, create efficiencies and do something better than everybody's ever done it before leads to them creating efficient killing machines called gas chambers, as well as it leads to them...
Innovation and Gender Differences
00:41:29
Speaker
creating a rocket ship to the moon.
00:41:31
Speaker
So it's like, it's tough because like, I think we would get there as a society because I think women are also infinitely curious and would want to do it.
00:41:37
Speaker
I think we could do it with a lot levels of destruction, although it would take much longer.
00:41:42
Speaker
No, I think women could have gotten, in fact, I think we would have gotten to the moon sooner if women hadn't been kept out of education for so many centuries, right?
00:41:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's true.
00:41:51
Speaker
So I think women are just as capable of like innovation, you know, you don't need to be physically strong to innovate or to have ideas and stuff, right?
00:41:58
Speaker
And in fact,
00:41:59
Speaker
nowadays, most innovation isn't just like one guy with an idea.
00:42:03
Speaker
Innovation happens on a team generally, you know, even to build like, you know, giant, like, you know, weapons and stuff.
00:42:08
Speaker
It takes like generally multiple people working together to achieve a common goal and stuff.
00:42:13
Speaker
And like, yeah, men can work together really well, but like team management and stuff and teamwork, that's also something that women I think can be very good at, you know?
00:42:21
Speaker
So I mean, I don't know if I buy the idea that
00:42:24
Speaker
If we lived in a female-dominated world, would we have no wars?
00:42:27
Speaker
No, we probably would still have wars because women are just as capable of aggression as men.
00:42:30
Speaker
But I also don't think that, oh, if women ran the world, then we'd all be taken down by gossip and nasty rumors and stuff.
00:42:38
Speaker
Because actually, I work in a male-dominated sales environment, and men are just as prone to gossiping and talking shit and rumors and that kind of stuff.
00:42:46
Speaker
as women are.
00:42:47
Speaker
So they really are.
00:42:48
Speaker
I'm tired of the bad PR on women for that because all the messiest people I know.
00:42:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:55
Speaker
Men participate in office politics too, right?
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, they do.
00:42:59
Speaker
I mean, on the innovation point, I, my extremely hot take on this is that I actually like the thing that is most likely to destroy the planet in a single like catastrophic moment is
00:43:11
Speaker
scientific experimentation so I don't think that as we saw with COVID I mean do we want to get into like lab leak on the FDS podcast but risk taking I personally am a very risk averse person I don't think that we should be taking loads and loads of risks in scientific discoveries necessarily
00:43:26
Speaker
And actually, there's a really strong argument saying, I don't know if any of you have ever read Civilized to Death by Christopher Ryan.
00:43:31
Speaker
It was a New York Times bestseller some years ago.
00:43:32
Speaker
It's very good.
00:43:33
Speaker
He basically makes the argument for anarcho-primeterism and says that actually, before the agricultural revolution, people actually had much better lives in those ways.
00:43:41
Speaker
And civilization isn't all it's cracked up to be, basically.
00:43:44
Speaker
It's a great book.
00:43:44
Speaker
So the argument that you get sometimes from anti-feminists that, well, men built civilization, you know, there is a response which is like, okay, okay.
00:43:53
Speaker
Civilization was a mistake.
00:43:54
Speaker
Is civilization really that great though?
00:43:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:57
Speaker
A lot of it's trash.
00:43:58
Speaker
It's like, right.
00:43:58
Speaker
It's like, why are you forcing us to live like this?
00:44:00
Speaker
It's actually awful.
00:44:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:04
Speaker
We're all miserable now.
00:44:05
Speaker
So thanks, men.
00:44:06
Speaker
You fill our foods with poison.
00:44:08
Speaker
And then if we want to actually have food that's not full of poison, we have to pay extra versus like before when we were agricultural based, like we could just grow it ourselves.
00:44:16
Speaker
Right.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:17
Speaker
Men built that.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yeah, feminist anarcho-primitivism is, I think, the hottest new ideology around.
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:25
Speaker
Maybe that's my next book.
00:44:26
Speaker
Feminism and anarcho-primitivism.
00:44:28
Speaker
Nice.
Feminist Activism and Challenges
00:44:29
Speaker
Maybe it should be.
00:44:30
Speaker
I don't know.
00:44:30
Speaker
I haven't decided.
00:44:31
Speaker
I'm really curious to know, because what you talk about is very unpopular, right?
00:44:36
Speaker
And so I'm curious to know, like, what are some of the barriers that you've had in trying to bring this topic into the mainstream discussion?
00:44:43
Speaker
And how did you overcome those?
00:44:45
Speaker
So you say that, and yet I have not had nearly as much grief as I thought I would with this book.
00:44:52
Speaker
Yeah, because Gail Dines, like, suffered, like...
00:44:54
Speaker
Well, at least not in the US.
00:44:56
Speaker
I haven't seen you like main like platformed anywhere in the same way.
00:45:00
Speaker
You know, I don't see you being on Vice magazine or unless you have for some reason, I don't know.
00:45:04
Speaker
Well, I basically haven't had much coverage from progressive outlets.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah, they're more likely to ignore people like you.
00:45:12
Speaker
Yeah, that seems to be what's happening.
00:45:13
Speaker
I mean, I have had like, I had a very nice review in The Observer here and I've been on mainstream things like Radio 4.
00:45:20
Speaker
But generally, the coverage I get is from centrist and conservative places and is positive.
00:45:27
Speaker
And I just haven't had very much shit.
00:45:29
Speaker
I used to get, because I also work on the We Can't Consent to This campaign, which is a campaign against the rough sex defence, this thing where men are claiming that women consented to lethal violence and die because of a sex game gone wrong.
00:45:41
Speaker
We've got quite a lot of grief from that one, from the kinksters who call us prudes and frigid and yada yada, but they haven't succeeded.
00:45:50
Speaker
It turns out that they actually have basically no influence in politics.
00:45:55
Speaker
That's good news.
00:45:56
Speaker
I mean, they're trying to change that though.
00:45:58
Speaker
Hence the reason why they are disingenuously trying to conflate a sexual fetish or a kink with a sexual orientation.
00:46:07
Speaker
So that's why you see, for example, fetish gear at Pride.
00:46:11
Speaker
That's why they're trying to make the argument that
00:46:14
Speaker
If somebody doesn't want to see, or for example, somebody who is repulsed by seeing, I don't know, a dom, you know, walking a sub on a leash like a dog, then that's the same as being repulsed by two gay men kissing, for example.
00:46:27
Speaker
So they don't have influence in, you know, BDSM is still quite marginalised to some degree, but they are trying to change that by hitching their wagon to the LGBT plus argument.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:38
Speaker
And using gay liberation as a model.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yes, yeah, and trying to conflate a sexual fetish with an orientation.
00:46:44
Speaker
Yeah, they're doing their best.
00:46:47
Speaker
But they, so far, they're coming up against a lot of opposition, which I hope remains true.
00:46:52
Speaker
Well, in the US, it's mostly coming from conservatives because of things like lips of TikTok.
00:46:57
Speaker
And the left, again, is not platforming any type of sex critical voices at all.
00:47:02
Speaker
So it's like it's your team red or team blue.
00:47:04
Speaker
And if anybody in the middle who's like, yeah, I don't think it's OK for a man in a dog costume to wave like a pink dildo in front of a child's face, then it's like you're a conservative, right?
00:47:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:13
Speaker
You know, let's be real, come election time, they're often shocked at how people vote and then they just blame anything else other than like people being rightfully horrified by some of these polarizing culture issues that I think a reasonable person who is an average person who has kids or something would be upset by.
00:47:29
Speaker
Speaking of kind of the LGBTQ arc, have you noticed a difference between what's being said in heterosexual relationships versus LGBTQ relationships as it pertains to the sexual revolution?
00:47:40
Speaker
Because on our end, like I know that this is part of the controversy of FDS is that we pretty much exclusively focused on heterosexual relationships and then secondarily women loving women.
00:47:51
Speaker
And so a lot of the other people felt like, okay, who are part of the LGBT community who didn't understand the dynamics of straight relationships would be like, why is there not gay male representation with female dating strategy?
00:48:04
Speaker
There's some of that, but there'd be like gay men or who would be like, well, I'm equal with my partner and we split everything equally and we don't have this problem.
00:48:11
Speaker
Or like, or even like lesbians who felt like, although I think lesbians, I think bisexual women really get it who date women.
00:48:16
Speaker
No, I think a lot of lesbians get it though.
00:48:18
Speaker
Like they understand it.
00:48:19
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of lesbians get it, especially if they were compelled to have sex with men when they were younger because of cultural pressure.
00:48:25
Speaker
But like, there's like this attitude that like everything in gay relationships is the models for straight relationships not understanding.
00:48:32
Speaker
There's all these like adversarial effects.
00:48:34
Speaker
So I feel like a lot of the feminine, like the intersectional feminists have sought to like de-gender and de-sex relationships.
00:48:41
Speaker
to the detriment of women, because not acknowledging that there are serious sex based differences, both in risk and reward.
00:48:48
Speaker
And what that's the lens that we go through is that some things are riskier for women and lower rewarding versus for men has effectively like neutered the conversation about sexual dynamics between men and women in mainstream media.
00:49:00
Speaker
Because as soon as you start saying like,
00:49:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's really unfair for like women have to do all this type of sexual labor.
00:49:06
Speaker
Like why can't we when we're dating like vet men for XYZ or not do it this way or expect men to pay for dates or contribute more or contribute in things that are more stereotypically masculine.
00:49:15
Speaker
And then they'll say like, no, that's not the equality model.
00:49:18
Speaker
The equality models, everything has to be the exact same thing on paper.
00:49:21
Speaker
And then like you'll have the LGBTQ community run and like, well, we're parents and we split it this way.
00:49:26
Speaker
And I'm like, yes, but you're also not in a heterosexual relationship, which has its own differences.
00:49:31
Speaker
So I'm rambling here, but like, what's your opinion on that?
00:49:34
Speaker
I completely agree with you.
00:49:35
Speaker
You can't just ignore sex differences.
00:49:38
Speaker
It's one of the things that I noticed a lot when I was reading about things like catching feelings and like how to have feminist hookups and all this kind of stuff that they talk in sort of gender neutral terms about things like feeling distressed by hookups or trying to like not emotionally attached to partners and stuff.
00:49:57
Speaker
And it would be presented in a gender neutral way.
00:49:59
Speaker
I was like, oh, come on.
00:49:59
Speaker
What's that?
00:50:00
Speaker
Like, we all know that the vast majority of people who are experiencing this are women.
00:50:04
Speaker
Like, you can't represent this as being something entirely equally distributed between the sexes, which is like my whole big part of my whole argument against huckab culture that it's bad for women, which I think we all agree on.
00:50:15
Speaker
I made the decision in the book to only write about straight people.
00:50:18
Speaker
And I don't, I only very briefly mention gay and lesbian relationships, mostly just to sort of underline the fact that they are good evidence of male and female sexuality being quite different.
00:50:28
Speaker
The fact that lesbian and gay communities have quite different cultural, different cultures and different expectations.
00:50:33
Speaker
I figured that like 95% of people are straight.
00:50:36
Speaker
And so it is fine to sometimes deliberately talk only about straight relationships.
00:50:41
Speaker
I'd love to read a gay man writing on some of this from a more critical perspective.
00:50:46
Speaker
Okay, so at least in the States, especially around the time when like the push for gay marriage and more visibility for LGBTQ people was being platformed, there were actually a lot of gay men who had podcasts and like articles and stuff.
00:50:59
Speaker
One of the more infamous being someone like Dan Savage.
00:51:01
Speaker
I don't know if you've heard of him at all, like Savage Love.
00:51:03
Speaker
But yeah, they were effectively the pioneers of gender neutral advice.
00:51:07
Speaker
And now even Dan Savage has had to walk back so much of it.
00:51:09
Speaker
Like now he's older.
00:51:11
Speaker
And now a lot of women who, you know, at the time, maybe like 2008, 2009, when this was novel, you know, he used to have all these rules about sex work and then like age gap relationships.
00:51:20
Speaker
And now him like acknowledging like actually the nuances are quite different between gay relationships versus straight relationships.
00:51:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:26
Speaker
I understand why they wanted to platform our LGBTQ people.
00:51:28
Speaker
So I'm not like saying it was a bad thing because quite frankly, they weren't allowed to talk about these things before.
00:51:32
Speaker
And then there was a thought at the time that like, well, gay men like men too.
00:51:36
Speaker
So then there may be some similarities here and like they can kind of talk about it.
00:51:40
Speaker
And the effect actually was the opposite.
00:51:41
Speaker
Is that like a lot of, you know, even Sex and the City, I think a lot of the showrunners were gay.
00:51:45
Speaker
So like there's a lot of shoehorning female sexuality through the lens of gay men.
00:51:49
Speaker
Samantha is basically a gay man.
00:51:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:52
Speaker
Once again, being like cast through a male gaze, but just instead of the straight male gaze, it's like the gay male gaze about what sexuality is for women.
00:52:00
Speaker
And like nobody can help us in this regard, but ourselves really.
00:52:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
00:52:05
Speaker
This is quite a big conversation itself, but I think it goes both ways a little bit.
00:52:08
Speaker
I think there's also been a sort of, if you read something like, watch something like Will and Grace, it is sort of like gay men imagined through a straight female lens.
00:52:16
Speaker
It's not actually a good representation of what gay life is like.
00:52:19
Speaker
So I think, yeah, you can definitely overestimate the extent to which gay men and straight women are experiencing dating in the same way just because they're both attracted to men.
00:52:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's an error to assume that it's going to be identical, even though obviously there is variation among individuals.
00:52:33
Speaker
I think the mistake is always looking to men to answer any questions.
00:52:36
Speaker
And that's why a female dating strategy takes the position like we're our best experts.
00:52:40
Speaker
If you understand it as power dynamics, instead of just like there's some magical guru out there that's going to give you a love potion or spell or whatever to...
00:52:49
Speaker
keep you from being affected by patriarchy, there isn't.
00:52:52
Speaker
And when I see on the left a lot, and I've joked about this, about it just being like bizarro world religion, you know, instead of like praying for a good man, you know, there are more, you have women that are like, oh, I'm a witch and I do all this like Wicca stuff.
00:53:05
Speaker
And like,
00:53:05
Speaker
And it's to say I put a love spell on a guy.
00:53:08
Speaker
Instead of polygamy with like a sister wife, then you have like the Hugh Hefner, like a swinging culture where it's still one man with very many women, but it's like the same thing functionally where they don't have any control over their life, have controls everything, they're dependent on him, etc.
00:53:23
Speaker
And then, you know, instead of like willful submission through loving adoration of your husband of Christian conservative women, there's like the BDSM, like I'm willfully submitting partner, but I'm really a person that's in power.
00:53:34
Speaker
Like when I look at how the sexual revolution played out from my perspective and as an internal micro change within myself, and like, I think I maybe just figured out a little bit faster than maybe the culture at large was like, I was like, how is this different from Christianity?
00:53:47
Speaker
As a person who was like, Christ is Christianity.
00:53:49
Speaker
I remember being like,
00:53:51
Speaker
But this sucks.
00:53:51
Speaker
Like, why is it that like, it's basically the same power dynamic, but just like dressed up in leftist, like choosy choice language.
00:53:59
Speaker
Right.
00:53:59
Speaker
And so as I started to notice, like that men are still taking the power positions and all of the situation, it's just women are rationalizing it differently.
00:54:06
Speaker
And sometimes they're not even rationalizing it differently.
00:54:08
Speaker
They're just saying, they're saying the exact same thing, but just choosing parallel types of choices.
00:54:13
Speaker
I find it interesting that like there's been not a lot of like almost like sexual innovation from women, if that makes sense.
00:54:19
Speaker
Like where do you feel like the sexual innovation needs to come from?
00:54:22
Speaker
Like it's not going to come from porn culture because that's dominated by men, both as viewers and consumers.
00:54:27
Speaker
And it's not going to come from like...
00:54:29
Speaker
you know, looking at like, apparently not from even like sex positive or sex therapy media, which so once again, is so often by either women who buy certain narratives about men that seem absurd about like men have like men need to fuck a bunch of people because otherwise, like they're not their best self.
00:54:45
Speaker
And it's emotionally abusive to expect them to be monogamous and stuff like
00:54:48
Speaker
that.
00:54:48
Speaker
Like there's a lot of that kind of stuff.
00:54:50
Speaker
It's like, how come through all this sexual positivity stuff, like there wasn't any like real innovation?
00:54:55
Speaker
Like I haven't seen that many like, okay, you're a female and you should have like a male harem type thing.
00:54:59
Speaker
Right.
00:54:59
Speaker
It's always like, you know what I'm saying?
00:55:01
Speaker
Like, or we were joking about how like there's so many euphemisms for sexual acts
00:55:06
Speaker
in porn, like if you want to do a gangbang or like a double penetration DP.
00:55:10
Speaker
And then we were like, so this is going to get graphic, but we were brainstorming like what would be like a sexual equivalent for a woman?
00:55:15
Speaker
Like if you just have like multiple guys go down on you or give you oral sex, is there a name for that?
00:55:19
Speaker
No, there's not a name for that.
00:55:20
Speaker
Like there's just all these types of things that just don't exist in our popular culture.
00:55:24
Speaker
And I don't even see like feminist sex therapists like innovating this area.
00:55:28
Speaker
They're just like rationalizing what's already there.
00:55:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:31
Speaker
Feminist porn still looks an
00:55:34
Speaker
full lot like women just sucking dick doesn't it doesn't really it is and admittedly they have to do that because women just don't purchase enough of it for them to make a living yeah oh it's just such a like a dead-end market yeah yeah when you look at porn sites for women like it's always still tna it's always still boobs and butt and the prominent display like i don't see any gorgeous model to your guys i mean if they had nothing but porn of like jason momoa then maybe i'd watch that shit but it's just still a
00:56:02
Speaker
I want porn of like men just like chopping wood and like, I don't know, doing tasks and being competent.
00:56:07
Speaker
Like that's not even porn.
00:56:08
Speaker
That's just like guys being normal.
00:56:12
Speaker
I want to see more guys being normal.
00:56:14
Speaker
That's the kind of content I want to see.
00:56:16
Speaker
But seriously, Lilith, like there was a guy that went viral because he was chopping wood and so many women thought it was hot.
00:56:23
Speaker
Yeah, that guy's hot as fuck.
00:56:24
Speaker
I love that.
00:56:25
Speaker
I love that guy.
00:56:26
Speaker
Exactly.
00:56:27
Speaker
And there's no sexual, like, if you look at the market, there's nothing like that for us.
00:56:33
Speaker
Are there a bunch of like, okay, we're going to create like a slow motion video of a hot shirtless guy, like chopping wood and stuff.
00:56:40
Speaker
Vote with their views, sis.
00:56:42
Speaker
Like only pay attention to men who serve the female gaze.
00:56:46
Speaker
No one's creating it, even in the sex positive feminist space.
00:56:50
Speaker
It's weird.
00:56:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:51
Speaker
If you build it, they will come.
00:56:53
Speaker
Okay.
00:56:53
Speaker
We got to start.
00:56:54
Speaker
When we see it, we reward it.
00:56:55
Speaker
And then pun intended.
00:56:56
Speaker
And then the algorithm will eventually be like, oh, like people want to see this more kind of thing.
00:57:00
Speaker
Like stop looking at like stuff that degrades women.
00:57:02
Speaker
Start looking at more stuff that, you know, women like looking at like Hawkeyes chopping wood.
00:57:06
Speaker
I don't know.
00:57:07
Speaker
Are you aware of this new set?
00:57:08
Speaker
I only know about this because I had to, I was asked to write about a piece about it for the Telegraph.
00:57:12
Speaker
This new platform called Passion Flicks, which is owned by Elon Musk's sister.
00:57:18
Speaker
All right.
00:57:18
Speaker
So I'm going to stop it right there.
00:57:21
Speaker
There's a lot going on in that sentence.
00:57:23
Speaker
Anyway, Passionflix.
00:57:26
Speaker
It's basically a platform for film of women's erotic fiction.
00:57:32
Speaker
So a lot of it is based on romance novels that have been really successful and turned into films.
00:57:39
Speaker
And I had to watch some of it for the piece.
00:57:41
Speaker
It's not my bag generally, but it's apparently, like romance fiction in general is not really my bag, but it is apparently popular.
00:57:47
Speaker
And yeah, it's lots of like very muscly men brooding.
00:57:53
Speaker
And like quite a small proportion of the films actually involve sex scenes.
00:57:57
Speaker
It's all more about like the emotional turmoil of the relationships.
00:58:01
Speaker
So it's rom-coms with hot guys.
00:58:03
Speaker
So that's basically why 365 Days was popular because the movie is trash.
00:58:06
Speaker
But like, if you just actually put a man that women find attractive in the movie instead of all these like, quote, Hollywood attractive men.
00:58:13
Speaker
I don't know, Seth Rogen guys.
00:58:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:14
Speaker
Ones they're trying to gaslight us into one and a five.
00:58:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:18
Speaker
Well, passion flick has every genre of a man if you're into it.
00:58:22
Speaker
Oh, so you can like porn sites, you know, they select by, you know, race, boob size, hair color, whatever, right?
00:58:29
Speaker
You can't quite, but there are enough things that you could like browse through until you found preference.
00:58:34
Speaker
And then they have a combination of like really short, so some of them are only like five minutes and some of them are feature length.
00:58:40
Speaker
I think also it doesn't lend itself to women's sexuality because like women like a certain level of like class and men like we don't get off by like degrading, disgusting men in the same way as like men want women who are degrading and disgusting.
00:58:53
Speaker
So then I bet that it's just harder to find porn stars that appeal to women because they have to not be creeps.
00:58:59
Speaker
This would be not like the average man.
00:59:01
Speaker
No kidding.
00:59:02
Speaker
Right, exactly.
00:59:02
Speaker
I'm like, if you look like a guy I could just pick up, you know, hanging out at a bus stop, I don't really want to have sex with that.
00:59:08
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:59:08
Speaker
Like, this just looks like some guy who would be like trying to jump on the front of your car to squeegee your window.
00:59:14
Speaker
Like, that's not a guy.
00:59:15
Speaker
What the fuck?
00:59:17
Speaker
No.
00:59:18
Speaker
Sorry to switch gears a little bit, Louise, but I wanted to ask about your new think tank.
00:59:23
Speaker
You mentioned this offline before, but tell us more.
00:59:26
Speaker
Now that you've kind of achieved what you wanted with We Can't Consent to It, what's the next step for you?
00:59:32
Speaker
Transitioning from men washing windows.
00:59:34
Speaker
Yeah, so we can't get into this.
00:59:36
Speaker
It's now like coming up on five years old, I think.
00:59:38
Speaker
And we were able to change the law, which hopefully will make the rough sex defence more difficult.
00:59:46
Speaker
And it's a difficult legal problem, but the government did propose a new provision within the Domestic Abuse Act.
00:59:52
Speaker
So we're hoping that that is going to make it much more difficult.
00:59:56
Speaker
And yeah, and our question was, so where do we go next?
00:59:59
Speaker
And what we've done this summer, so literally just, you know, we barely have a website.
01:00:02
Speaker
This is super new, but we got a lump of funding to turn, we can't condense this into a mini think tank called The Other Half.
01:00:09
Speaker
And our reasoning behind it is that the world of...
01:00:13
Speaker
feminist lobbying is very, very liberal feminist.
01:00:17
Speaker
It doesn't represent the views of most women.
01:00:20
Speaker
If you look at polling, right, it's very orientated towards sort of Hillary Clinton style feminist thinking.
01:00:27
Speaker
Equality is the favorite word, whatever.
01:00:29
Speaker
and is really hopeless mostly on things like porn because there's this fear of being, you know, rocking the boat on that kind of issue.
01:00:39
Speaker
I mean, it's what we were talking about at the top of the show, right?
01:00:41
Speaker
Like, why is there this terror of talking about things like porn?
01:00:45
Speaker
I think it comes down to that fear of being kind of confused with conservatives.
01:00:48
Speaker
But, you know, we found that actually with getting the We Can't Consent to This...
01:00:52
Speaker
attention and support within parliament we got just as you know it was a conservative government that acted on it we had just as much support from conservatists as from labour and lib dems and we got just as much positive attention from right-wing media as left-wing media so it's i think it's all about like trying to find these open doors that you can push on and actually you can achieve things that are good for women without needing to be partisan such i think the partnership holds it back
01:01:17
Speaker
Because I genuinely think that actually the relationship between feminism and the left is really vexed.
01:01:21
Speaker
I think there's increasingly a divergence.
01:01:23
Speaker
It's really not obvious to me that the left is like the natural home of feminism necessarily.
01:01:29
Speaker
And I mean, we all know that left wing men are just as likely to be misogynist.
01:01:32
Speaker
There's really no, like, it's not a safe space by any means.
01:01:37
Speaker
I don't think they're there that we're there yet in the United States.
01:01:40
Speaker
Like they're always putting out these studies about, oh, conservative men are more likely to think certain things about women, which may or may not be true.
01:01:46
Speaker
But the implication is that always that like all of the bad things are coming from the conservative side.
01:01:50
Speaker
For example, we just did an episode about incels and like the Atlantic painted it like, oh, these incels, they're all right wing, but
01:01:57
Speaker
Everybody who does research an incel and also from our experience interacting with them, they're actually politically all over the place.
01:02:02
Speaker
And in fact, quite a few of them are leftist, but the intent is to always like paint it as right wing because then like when something happens, you know, it's a way to score political points.
01:02:11
Speaker
And so
01:02:12
Speaker
In the United States, there's not been a conscious divorce of feminism from the left-wing party quite yet, from Democratic Party.
01:02:21
Speaker
They're starting to go cannonball into different types of gender neutrality, and then obviously gender ideology, and then what people are calling wokeness, so to speak, which is a general theory of heterosexuality.
01:02:32
Speaker
how different types of oppression interact with each other.
01:02:34
Speaker
That's been applied to a bunch of other stuff that the original authors didn't necessarily mean.
01:02:38
Speaker
I mean, you're in a tricky spot, right?
01:02:40
Speaker
The right want to ban abortion, the left want to put male sex offenders in women's prisons.
01:02:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:47
Speaker
Man, that's a whole can.
01:02:48
Speaker
No, I mean, it's a whole
Future of Sexual Culture
01:02:50
Speaker
can of worms.
01:02:50
Speaker
It's something that like, once again, nobody's voice on our side who's otherwise a leftist, but things like kind of common sense things about men and women and the differences need to be acknowledged.
01:02:59
Speaker
There's no place for that right now.
01:03:01
Speaker
Because like if you say men and women have differences, you're a conservative.
01:03:05
Speaker
If you think you're supposed to, if you're going to be left wing, pretend that like every difference is a matter of opinion or something or socialization completely rather than like maybe there's some innate sex differences unless you're talking about transgenderism and then it's like biology.
01:03:19
Speaker
It's really weird.
01:03:19
Speaker
So we're in a weird spot where like the left doesn't know.
01:03:22
Speaker
It's just talking in circles and nobody will be platformed who talks about anything that makes sense.
01:03:27
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:28
Speaker
but doesn't follow the party line.
01:03:30
Speaker
I think that things are a little bit more sunny in the UK.
01:03:34
Speaker
And the thing that I take hope from is the fact that the grassroots response to efforts to reform the Gender Recognition Act from British TERFs was really successful.
01:03:45
Speaker
And also one of these things that really kind of cut across left and right, it wasn't really associated with either.
01:03:51
Speaker
Like you've got left-wing trade unionists kind of joining forces with like women's union style, women's institute, sorry, I should say, style, like conservatism with a small c and actually like successfully representing the interests of the vast majority of women who do not want, say, male sex offenders in their prisons.
01:04:11
Speaker
So yeah, I think it's a really interesting time for feminism right now, which is, I think...
01:04:15
Speaker
Like America and Britain, I think are really different contexts at the moment, but it could well be that the sort of grassroots organizing we've seen in the UK is replicated in America soon.
01:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think the biggest problem in the United States is not just, it's just geography and not even just ideology is that people who live in different states live entirely different lives.
01:04:36
Speaker
And so we might as well be living in different countries.
01:04:38
Speaker
And so sometimes it's harder for America to adjust compared to smaller countries because of how, I mean, you're talking about
01:04:44
Speaker
I don't know our population size, I mean, like 350 million or so people, and then they're geographically spread out and, you know, have different incentives.
01:04:53
Speaker
So it might be a while.
01:04:54
Speaker
So that's why so many movements, even grassroots movements take forever, because you really got to get a lot of consensus across a bunch of different states because of the fact of how our federal government works.
01:05:05
Speaker
But it can happen.
01:05:06
Speaker
And, you know, it happened with the drug war.
01:05:07
Speaker
I'm trying to see pushback on that, like in all of the states, you know, things like getting child marriage off the books started to ruminate through all the states.
01:05:14
Speaker
So like it can happen where suddenly everyone in the country is sort of on the same page about a particular issue.
01:05:19
Speaker
It just tends to take like
01:05:21
Speaker
years of work from people in all the different states.
01:05:24
Speaker
So to, I think, finish the conversation, in your book, it looks like you start to make an argument for a new sexual culture.
01:05:33
Speaker
What, in your opinion, would be the ideal?
01:05:36
Speaker
I mean, I basically think that what we've seen post-sexual revolution has been the
01:05:41
Speaker
women have been encouraged to imitate masculine sexuality, right?
01:05:45
Speaker
I mean, we've covered this from various angles over the course of the conversation, the kind of sex and citty having sex like a man thing as the ideal.
01:05:53
Speaker
And I think that it would be a much healthier sexual culture would be one that actually encourages men to imitate female sexuality.
01:06:01
Speaker
Agreed.
01:06:04
Speaker
and be more... Get to chopping that wood, gentlemen....stable, monogamous, whatever, like long-term orientated.
01:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the trade-off for that, right, and the response that I get from some men is that means that some men will end up being sexually frustrated, will be forced into monogamy when they'd rather sow their wild oats or whatever, to which I say...
01:06:26
Speaker
Oh, the fuck.
01:06:27
Speaker
Well, I'm sorry.
01:06:27
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:28
Speaker
To which I say, well, okay.
01:06:30
Speaker
Like I accept your terms, gentlemen.
01:06:32
Speaker
That's how it has to be.
01:06:35
Speaker
That's the break.
01:06:36
Speaker
Because the alternative is women having unwanted sex, which is where we're at now.
01:06:39
Speaker
And I think that that's like my feminist principles say, no, that's unacceptable.
01:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, which women having unwanted sex is the norm and the glue that keeps us society together, right?
01:06:48
Speaker
And so if we start to unsticky that glue, you know, the question is like, first of all, how are men going to react?
01:06:55
Speaker
Will men being pulled more to female sexuality?
01:06:58
Speaker
They're just gonna have to suck it up.
01:07:00
Speaker
Honestly.
01:07:00
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
01:07:02
Speaker
There are some women, I'm sure throughout history, many women who've gone their entire lives not even having an orgasm.
01:07:08
Speaker
Okay.
01:07:09
Speaker
So the idea that some men might not be able to get everything they want sexually, it's like, ah, tough luck, you know, join the club.
01:07:16
Speaker
That's normal to not have your every sexual desire or thought or whim satisfied.
01:07:22
Speaker
Like that's normal to not meet that a hundred percent.
01:07:26
Speaker
And they're just gonna have to suck it up.
01:07:27
Speaker
Once again, it would be really great if our, you know, our left wing media would make this argument rather than like everything men want is responsibility for women to provide either through sex work or directly through sex work or through like us being coerced into relationships that don't sexually satisfy us.
01:07:42
Speaker
And we've roasted so many articles from mainstream media that I think one of the most egregious ones was like a guy that a woman just met had some kind of kink fetish and
01:07:51
Speaker
And the woman wasn't really sure if she was open to it and was a little disgusted by it.
01:07:55
Speaker
And like the sex therapist was like, well, maybe he could play with this outside of the relationship and you give him space for that.
01:08:00
Speaker
I'm like, what relationship?
01:08:01
Speaker
She just met this guy.
01:08:02
Speaker
But like, this is, I feel like the question, the answer is like sexually incompatible move on.
01:08:07
Speaker
But it was like the immediate, the sex therapists are all involved in like telling women to be more open-minded and like let men sexually explore to their own detriment.
01:08:15
Speaker
Once again, this is feminist media.
01:08:18
Speaker
This is what makes it so odd.
01:08:19
Speaker
And I'm like, you know, this guy was going to be like a complete overhaul of sex positive culture and the women who are quote unquote pioneering it.
01:08:26
Speaker
But I have the sneaking suspicion that the women who are pioneering it are in it because it's trauma informed.
01:08:32
Speaker
Right.
01:08:32
Speaker
And so that's kind of the thing with the sex positive angle is that women who are maybe having great sex lives and like are not
01:08:39
Speaker
trying to make it their entire identity are probably not going to make it like a company around sex positive engagement, so to speak.
01:08:46
Speaker
So that's like kind of the tough thing that probably women who have normal, healthy sexual relationships with self-select out of being a sex therapist.
01:08:54
Speaker
They probably want to hear disgusting shit men say either.
01:08:57
Speaker
It's like self-protective.
01:08:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I optimistically think that we've probably already hit peak sex positive.
01:09:03
Speaker
I think that it was, I think it is kind of on the way out.
01:09:06
Speaker
I think it's becoming less fashionable, which can only be a good thing, particularly for young women.
01:09:10
Speaker
Like young women in this environment where being like choked by a boyfriend is high status, they're being so set up to fail and actually put in danger.
01:09:20
Speaker
a culture that encourages them to have sex with violent men.
01:09:24
Speaker
So I think that's going.
01:09:26
Speaker
And I partly think that because I've had a surprisingly positive reception to what I'm doing.
01:09:31
Speaker
And we can't consent to this, had a really, really positive reception.
01:09:34
Speaker
And yeah, I'm hoping that that's starting to change.
Conclusion and Further Engagement
01:09:38
Speaker
So thank you, Louise Perry, for coming on our podcast.
01:09:42
Speaker
If you want to check out Louise Perry, where can we find you?
01:09:44
Speaker
So the book is, it's come out in the US like 10 days ago.
01:09:49
Speaker
And it's called The Case Against Sexual Revolution.
01:09:51
Speaker
And you got sex in the 21st century available in all good bookshops.
01:09:55
Speaker
And if you want to follow you on Twitter?
01:09:57
Speaker
I am at Louise underscore M underscore Perry.
01:10:00
Speaker
Great.
01:10:01
Speaker
So check us out on our website, thefemaledatingstrategy.com forward slash forum.
01:10:06
Speaker
If you want to discuss this episode further, also check out our Patreon, patreon.com forward slash thefemaledatingstrategy.
01:10:12
Speaker
Also check us out on Twitter at fem.strat and on our Instagram at underscore thefemaledatingstrategy.
01:10:18
Speaker
Thanks for listening, queens.
01:10:20
Speaker
And for all you scrotes out there, get to chopping that wood.
01:10:23
Speaker
Die mad.