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Living Authentically: Lessons from Xir Divine's Unique Approach to Business, Kink, and Spirituality
45 Plays11 months ago
SUMMARY
In this episode of Dirty Money with Bevin and Mike, we are blessed to be in the presence of Xir Divine Rae - a multi-passionate serial entrepreneur with an incredibly unique approach to business, kink, and spirituality.
Through their own personal experiences and discovering their true calling in the divine masculine as a professional and lifestyle Dominant, Xir Divine has not only built a thriving business but also cultivated a community where they can give back while staying true to their beliefs.
TOPICS
[3:45] How Xir Divine Love Was Born
[12:25] Challenges working in an Erotic Energy
[19:55] Xir’s Personal Relationships & Serving the Community
[33:20] All about Revenue
[43:45]: Tips for the Financial Side
[53:55] Advice for folks considering to new to the industry
[01:00:35] Plans for the Future
RESOURCES & LINKS
Connect with Xir Divine Rae
Instagram:@divinekinkacademy
Website: https://www.divinekinkacademy.com/
Other Resources Mentioned:
CONTACT INFO
Bevin Morgan:
Instagram: @bevinmorgan & @temple_eanna
Website: www.templeeanna.com & BevinMorgan.com
Mike Poulin:
Instagram: @mjpou56
Dirty Money Podcast:
Instagram: @dirtymoney_podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Dirty Money Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Dirty Money with Bevin. And Mike. A space to talk about financial topics for folks who don't fit into traditional financial spaces. We believe money is a tool for everyone. Our mission is to provide a literal microphone and platform for queer, BIPOC, polyamorous, and sex-positive individuals. No topic is off the table here.
00:00:31
Speaker
That being said, one tiny little housekeeping note. For those listening who may have others with sensitive ears, the listener discretion is advised because we do not censor ourselves. That's right. You've been warned, but enough from us. Let's get this episode started.
Meet Zurg Divine Ray
00:00:54
Speaker
Welcome back to Dirty Money. I am Bevin with my co-host Mike. Hi, Mike.
00:01:00
Speaker
Hello. And I am incredibly excited, incredibly excited to be here with Zurg Divine Ray. Hello, Zurg. Peace. Hi. So I'm going to jump right into it. Well, actually, I'll let you start. So will you please just give us a brief introduction, whatever you want to share, pronouns, where you're located, what you do, who you are, all of those things. OK, great. Thank you.
00:01:31
Speaker
My name is Zer Devine Ray. I use they, them, he and God pronouns. Pretty much all the masculine things resonate with me, but I am a two-spirited indigenous energy channel. I'm a healer by way of BDSM and Kink. I'm a pro-dominant as well as a lifestyle dominant and top. I am a lot of things. I'm an artist. I founded Divine Kink Academy, which is
00:02:02
Speaker
a modality that intersects BDSM and sacred sexuality, or just looks at BDSM through the frame or the lens of sacred sexuality. I'm also co-owner of Dark Haven ATO, which is Atlanta's only like black co-owned kink space. We're a studio, a photography studio, and we happen to have a lovely dungeon space. So we focus on entertainment, education,
00:02:32
Speaker
and art creation. And so between all those things, I'm just a sexual entrepreneur and I've kind of been in sex work and surrounding fields pretty much most of my adult life. So I have lots of hands on experience and I'm also a scholar in pursuing my master's in psychology with an emphasis on human sexuality.
00:03:00
Speaker
So I plan to be a certified sexologist and a licensed counselor, and however I can continue to connect my dots is what I will be doing, so. All of the things. So, Bevin, I know you know them. I don't. So I'm just sitting here just like, we're like peeling back all these layers right now, and I'm just like ready to just kind of like dive in.
00:03:30
Speaker
I know we said we try to keep this to an hour, but I don't know if that hours time today. My first question for you is how, you know, you said that you've done this most of your adult life.
00:03:47
Speaker
How did that happen? How did we get here today? Take us back. I'm very, very curious.
Journey into BDSM and Sex Work
00:03:57
Speaker
OK. So at the age of 18, I gave birth to the most wonderful human being. And his father at the time had been incarcerated,
00:04:15
Speaker
was incarcerated on a day that I found out I was pregnant. My life with him had been pretty much a kept individual. I was young and just like a trophy girlfriend. And when he was arrested, the little 10,000 in savings that we had, or that I had, kind of went by.
00:04:37
Speaker
pretty quickly. So I floated through my pregnancy off my savings, moved back in with my parents, but then now I have a child and a mouth to feed. I moved back to New York and a friend of mine or just someone that I knew was a dancer and invited me to come audition at a go-go club where she worked. And I was completely like,
00:05:02
Speaker
I had no experience in seducing or being sexy. So I kind of went through like a stripper bootcamp, if you will. And this became my primary source of income. I was really good at it. I was making like around 100,000 a year. And my, well, no, no, no, not then.
00:05:26
Speaker
was floating, right? But I was doing good. I met the one of the clubs that I worked in upstate New York, I met the house dominatrix or the club dominatrix. She kind of took me under her wing because one of her clients had noticed me. And she was about to get kind of pushed out the the arrangement. But she was wise about it and kind of took me under her wing and became an ally. And so I learned femdom.
00:05:55
Speaker
from a pro sex worker pro dom in the clubs. And it was just a basically a fuck you pay me type of arrangement with people. And I didn't really know the ins and outs of like consensual BDSM. But at that time, it was a completely different landscape than what we see now with just more of consent and loving BDSM being prominent. So it was
00:06:21
Speaker
just definitely more of an exchange between people. But I learned a lot in the three years under her tutelage and kind of developed my own persona or one that was given to me, right? I didn't know myself at that time. So I was just like, here, you take on this persona. I think it was a little racist, but like, it was like Mistress Raven was the first name like they gave me and I'm like, all right, Ravens are dark and mysterious, whatever, I'm going with it. So I did that.
00:06:52
Speaker
dancing and doing like club BDSM for about two to three years. And then I kind of got into the management end of things where I was tired of dancing and working, but I knew girls, so I would bring them. We would travel and I would teach them how to do femdom. And so, you know, keeping the higher end clientele for myself and just kind of building a business and a team around the need for
00:07:21
Speaker
you know, DS and S&M. It wasn't until maybe I was 25 or 26 when I started to really educate myself outside of a club scene and do more personal exchanges and just had different mentors and
00:07:39
Speaker
of educational opportunities along the way. I'm obsessive when I find something I'm interested in, I want to learn everything about it. So being a psychology interested person my whole life, I wanted to know what makes people tick and how to mind fuck them, if you will, consensually.
00:08:01
Speaker
And I just kind of grew, I wasn't out. So at this time it was kind of living a double life. I was in the music industry as well. And I was a songwriter and a traveling artist, but the sex work was how I funded all my travels, studio time and things like this. And it kind of went hand in hand in that way. I outed myself, I want to say,
00:08:26
Speaker
2015-2016 when I started practicing shibari and wanted to show off my skills and wanted to show my rope. What is shibari?
00:08:39
Speaker
Shabari is a Japanese style of rope bondage and it's real decorative and it's like the formal end of rope bondage. I have since kind of loosened up my style and created more of like a freestyle Shabari, which isn't so centered on like the technical aspects of it. And it's just about learning rope and connectivity and just having a good time and creating art
00:09:08
Speaker
But at the time I was like studying under a rope master and it was really like gate kept in those times. So I started I outed myself little by little. And then in 2018, I after
00:09:25
Speaker
like a physical trauma and head injury and like rebuilding myself in physical therapy. I birthed this version of myself and stepped out formally as Divine Ray. And then I think that's when most people started like taking notice. This was pre-pandemic. So during pandemic and lockdown, I got a lot of attention because I was one of the main people online that people saw when they're looking for POC kink and imagery that like represented
00:09:55
Speaker
uh, brown bodies. So little by little, I just decided that this was going to be my life in a, in a business way. And so I just was honing all my skills because as I was living this double life, I was serial entrepreneur either way. So I'm like, let me just find more things that are in alignment with my actual desires. I had a spiritual awakening in 2012 that kind of, I was battling for a while.
00:10:24
Speaker
between these two polarities. And so Divine Ray was the integration of myself and like fully accepting, I am a spiritual being, I am a sexual being, and I'm also a divine being here to experience all those things. And I've been just branding myself around that and really being, you know, a thought leader, I'll say, in,
00:10:51
Speaker
speaking more about BDSM as a spiritual practice.
Creating Inclusive Sex-Positive Spaces
00:10:55
Speaker
I didn't invent that wheel, per se, but
00:10:58
Speaker
there weren't a lot of people talking about it when I was first entering the scene or looking for other communities to join. So I started holding spaces and creating my own events and having just sex-positive environments for people to come explore themselves. And it wasn't always money motivated, but I learned how to make a living and how to be honored for my work.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah, we got here through just self-awareness and development and the desire to just express who I am in this life. And after bumping my head, I'm good at a lot of things, but finding my passion, what the world could use,
00:11:48
Speaker
and what could sustain me financially. I think it's called like Ikigai in Japanese. It's a zen diagram in which your passions and what the world could use kind of meet. And that's like my dream life. So all these kinds of things are just in alignment with me being my true self and living what I consider my best life, although it comes with its own challenges and controversy.
00:12:17
Speaker
I've just remained on my path, but that's the best way I could say it. And I hope you don't mind. I am a little bit interested in hearing more about some of the challenges that came along this path because the themes that I heard and what you just said are so beautiful and around this idea of meeting yourself, knowing yourself, saying yes to who you are and saying yes to opportunities as you're coming along.
00:12:47
Speaker
And this life doesn't take it easy on any of us all of the time. So will you just speak to some of the challenges that you were able to overcome and how you made your way through that, et cetera? Yeah. I think the first challenges were around the legality of these kind of things. There's always this hush-hush.
00:13:14
Speaker
you know, because a lot of people associate BDSM as being strictly sexual. There's always that, are the feds going to come or you know, there's always that, like, fear, right? But I've had to
00:13:33
Speaker
realize we're not in the 50s anymore. There isn't these task force that are specifically looking for people who are just having a good time. Obviously, there's that fine line between what is legal. A lot of this stuff is consensual, but it's not necessarily respected under the law. Ownership of another human being, consensually or not, is still very much illegal.
00:14:03
Speaker
You know, impact play, erotic spanking is still violence. And so there's all these gray areas surrounding, you know, what can we do in a way? What can we do publicly and how much can we share and show? And then vetting individuals and making sure that the spaces that you're creating are safer. We can't say safe. We try to stay safer. There's no 100 percent guarantee that we try to create safer environments for education and play.
00:14:32
Speaker
Then there's the community itself, which we use community as an umbrella term, but it's really a conglomeration of a bunch of communities that decide what the standard will be. And so when you have someone who is like, I acknowledge my shadow self. I am a self-proclaimed ethical vampire, like energy vampire and a succubus incubus. And,
00:15:01
Speaker
you know, some people can't separate the fantasy from the reality of who I am as a person. So one of my personal challenges has been kind of like being falsely accused by a scorned ex and of like consent violations. And then the gossip mail, the rumor mail starts, and then you have people who are irresponsibly like propagating this, these,
00:15:29
Speaker
rumors based on what they think. And because you're a vampire and a top and you like spanking ass or whatever, and your online persona is of this kind of dark creature, it's so much more easy for people to assign you as a villain. So there's all these like human interactions that become challenges, all the personality types. And then like, I think the biggest overall challenge is
00:15:59
Speaker
maintaining a consistent income when the economy might be in flux or the instability of when everyone was on lockdown, like how do we still hold spaces? Am I still taking clients? Am I still throwing parties? And then feeling like I need to do these things because people will still be seeking and what types of unsafe environments are being created because the responsible people are sitting back or
00:16:30
Speaker
not being as active, but then you have these little alley parties and unsafe environments in which consent isn't being honored or being the most important element. So yeah, the list could go on because anytime you have human interaction, there's definitely room for challenge, but those are some of my more prominent and personal ones. And I continue to just show up as who I am and gain
00:17:02
Speaker
followers by just being who I am authentically and holding space and letting people see who I am and come experience the environment. And as far as financially, I've just learned to keep that serial entrepreneur mentality going, but I just have to make sure I don't have all my eggs in one basket.
00:17:22
Speaker
while also not going so far away from my path that it kind of takes me away from my main mission objective. That is so important. Speaking from the business side of things, We Are Money podcast. So the idea of diversifying your income streams
00:17:49
Speaker
so that you're not just a one-trick pony. So if that dries up, you're not up Schitt's Creek without a paddle. But then the other side of this, which I think a lot of people don't
00:18:05
Speaker
always take into account is keeping to your values of why you're doing your business. And I see it a lot with clients is they think that they need to do all these things for because money is the driver, right? Money is important, but I think it's that's really important and that you said that because it is how do you find that balance of
00:18:32
Speaker
you know, not just doing one thing, but keeping making sure that the streams of income all align with your intentions and your values. Right. Yeah. Cause I, like I said, I'm really good at a lot of different things. And if I see something.
00:18:49
Speaker
that could be lucrative. I'm prone to investigate that. But I've also learned to have like these nameless or faceless brands that have nothing to do with me that can be completely separate.
00:19:03
Speaker
and just kind of build a team around these other opportunities without taking myself away or bringing, you know, like I said, like, if there's people who don't like me, or don't fuck with me, I don't want you hating on this particular business because my association. So I'll make it just like a corporate brand. And so I've had a hair company, I've had
00:19:25
Speaker
like music studios, I've had several online boutiques and kind of continue to still do that. But the closer that I can get to things that are in my main mission path, there's rooms for cross promotion and ways for people to engage with me on multiple levels. So I like that as well. Great. One other thing I wanted to dive into in terms of challenges is
00:19:55
Speaker
as a queer polyamorous person myself, how was your, as you were figuring out who you were, right? You started your life in a very different place. So how has you kind of coming into your own affected your previous relationships, whether it be with family, your son,
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah, just how has that been, what positives or negatives with that? But I'm just curious. For sure. So my relationship with my son is really beautiful. He's my best friend and he is 21 now. He goes to Long Island University for music tech. And I feel like he's,
00:20:51
Speaker
the perfect split. He's me when I split cells with him. And all I cared about was weed, video games, and making music. And so I love that for him. Like, go live your life. He's kind of prudish to be my child. That was
00:21:08
Speaker
something that I still joke with him about because he's always been raised in a sex positive environment. I'm not, he was never around things that, you know, he shouldn't be around, but, you know, there were times when we'd have conversations and I'd be talking to him about his body and just really open with him about my, my lifestyle.
Personal Relationships and Family Dynamics
00:21:29
Speaker
Cause I also am ethically non-monogamous. I wasn't always ethically non-monogamous, but I was always non-monogamous. So he's always seen me with,
00:21:38
Speaker
multiple lovers or, you know, partners and just been raised in kind of a non-traditional family structure kind of thing. I mentioned like when I had my team of girls who were traveling and working with me, like this was his aunties and, you know, other moms or whatever. And so he was always raised in this kind of like, it takes a village type of scenario. And as a little kid, he was kind of bratty where he would kind of,
00:22:08
Speaker
If girls were working for me and they didn't buy him candy or whatever, he would like, OK, well, I'm going to tell my mom. And he won't see you for long. And he was kind of like the kings, the prince. Everyone was scared of offending him for fear of pissing me off, because he's also one of the reasons I will fly off the handle.
00:22:29
Speaker
my family, I've always been like the favorite child and also the black sheep. Like I'm one of my mom's favorite children. And I just like, I'm that doting offspring, that child who's always like making sure my mom is taken care of and paying her bills and stuff like that. But then there was always this, at some point she stopped taking money from me because
00:22:54
Speaker
my sexual life went against her religious values when she got back into the church and went to do her ordainment. But I was also her queer child, non-monogamous. So it wasn't necessarily like the sex life or sex work that kind of alienated me. It was all these other things of me being out and open. But I'm also my family's favorite. Like all my aunties, everybody loves me, but I'm sure they're behind doors like, please,
00:23:22
Speaker
you know, I don't know if they're praying for my soul or what, but they actually come to me for spiritual healing. As I've gotten older and like settled into like the knowledge of who I am and being able to offer my gifts to my family, one of my aunts actually was like asking, was like, hey, next time we're around, can I do some rope? And so they're seeing that because of my advocacy, it's not inherently sexual, you know, at first I was like,
00:23:48
Speaker
Is that weird? But it's not. Because if I'm out here preaching, this is a healing modality and also waves, like somatics. So if we're doing somatic embodiment through BDSM and kink, how could I find it shameful to do it with family? So there's those fine lines, because also there is erotic rope and shit like that. But you're not doing that with your auntie, unless that's your thing. That's just not my thing. But I don't knock anyone.
00:24:20
Speaker
As far as my personal relationships, as a sex worker, everything outside of my main lover was transactional. So I couldn't find value in just a submissive wanting to serve me. There had to be a financial reward or people wanted to date me because I was not monogamous. I'm like, okay, I can date you, but it still needs to be transactional. I need to have some kind of reward that,
00:24:49
Speaker
is associated. And I'm a Taurus sun and a Capricorn rising. So like those signs are very material, game driven and luxury and comfort and all the things that come with Venus ruled beings. So that kind of, my lens was skewed for a while because I was also, you know, from 18 to 25, my brain's still developing. And I had this like, this idea that people were
00:25:19
Speaker
Well, men especially were food, and they wanted to consume me and my sexual energy, so I justified that all you are is a paycheck. You might be the coolest guy in the world, but I can't connect here. My heart wasn't open.
00:25:36
Speaker
And I felt very much like a commodity to people. I had learned that from the boyfriends that I had, including my son's father, where I was like, this prize, but you didn't cherish me. It was like, I'm a diamond in a box. You don't want me to interact with anyone. You don't want me to really explore my sexuality. And so as I claimed myself and learned how to want financially
00:26:01
Speaker
empower me so I didn't have to rely on a lover or a submissive's tributes or anything like that. I was the empowered one. But I couldn't because of that, I couldn't value human interactions that were just like, I love how you make me feel or we're just together. So that that was something that's something I'm glad I grew out of. And that was like a
00:26:25
Speaker
a big change, like shifting. I think I mentioned before, like around 26, 27, I started like just having a heart awakening and really valuing the divinity in other people because I had discovered my own. So I was always that person coming home with two girlfriends or two lovers, and my mom is like accepting of them and never like talking bad or trying to preach me out of hellfire.
00:26:55
Speaker
I just showed up. I didn't ask for permission. So it was like they've seen all the versions of me reinventing myself and really settling into who I am now and knowing who that is. But yeah, it's been a long journey of just fucking up and realizing
00:27:16
Speaker
you got to trim the fat off of the character that you want to be spiritually, emotionally, and yada yada. So it's still fine tuning at all levels. There's versions of myself that die every day and thought process and belief systems that I grow out of. So I don't know if that actually ever ends or ended, but it's been
00:27:38
Speaker
I do accept and love humans and accept value from interactions that are not monetarily driven. But I also, when it comes to DS and people who just want access to me, I'm very much like a God on earth. I appreciate being worshiped. I appreciate my devotees and attributes. So while I still am financially motivated, it's more of a
00:28:06
Speaker
you're worth more to me than you ever will have been years ago. But even if there's no money that you can offer, I find value in the service that can be offered or just the time that we share. I have other love languages besides acts of service and gifts and money that can be activated now. So it's just a maturity level that I've reached where
00:28:32
Speaker
I see people for more than just like cash luts or pay piggies when we're talking about financial domination. It's like, I love you. I still want you to tribute me, but if you can't, I still find value in you. And my personal dynamics and DS and BDSM, they're valuable to me. I border out codependency of service because I'm so spoiled that if I have to do things myself, I'm kind of like, eh.
00:29:01
Speaker
Whatever, do it. That's not what I would rather be doing. Well, sometimes it's nice to just be taken care of, right? Yeah. I feel like that that's a human emotion, and we can all be independent beings, but we also need community and people to help take care of us, right? We all can't be 100% all the time. Right. Yeah.
00:29:28
Speaker
And so in return, I also, I'm in service to my community. And so I'm giving and pouring into people and I'm holding space for people. Almost every day I wake up to someone needing some spiritual or BDSM leather advice or something like that. So because I've stepped into a leadership role in my community, I'm pouring into everyone all the time. So I do need that where I'm receiving and allowing myself to receive.
Darkhaven ATL and Revenue Models
00:29:58
Speaker
Well, that's such a great segue into a little bit more about who you are and some of the things that you do in the community. So the way that I learned about you was through the dungeon, through Darkhaven. And for folks who don't know anything about dungeons or I believe you also call it a BDSM gallery. Yes. Okay. So will you just tell us a little bit? Yeah.
00:30:27
Speaker
So Darkhaven, so okay, let me back up a little bit. I'm on a mission to just like decolonize everything about my life. And a lot of that is like my kink, my sex. And so we don't always call it a dungeon because
00:30:43
Speaker
you know historically non-consensual torture happened to brown and black bodies in dungeons and so when we're reclaiming our environments we want to use words that are empowering and not so daunting for people because when you even think about the word dungeon if you have no idea of what to expect it just seems like a dark and scary place where things might happen to you that you don't want and so
00:31:11
Speaker
We're legally, because we're a photography studio in an art gallery, the dungeon room is the inner haven in it. All these pieces are art. They were handcrafted by a black artisan who really took our designs and poured love into it. And it's not just like tools of torture or weapons of ass destruction, if you will.
00:31:37
Speaker
It's a space where you can come create, be beautiful, and experience your body. So it is a gallery because art happens there. Even if there's no cameras rolling, the art of BDSM and DS and MS and S&M are happening there. So that part, it's a dungeon, but for just comfort's sake and for legality purposes,
00:32:05
Speaker
we just call it other things as well. And Darkhaven has, we just celebrated our one year anniversary, October 28th. And we're now looking for new spaces, new locations to continue the work. The building isn't the most sustainable financially. It's an older building. So there's like some issues with
00:32:29
Speaker
just the overhead to run this kind of space, but it's been really eye opening and expansive to be in this particular building and to have people who have never stepped into spaces like this, be able to experience that. So yeah, I'm glad that you did, that you got to come. Yeah. When I didn't want to ask you any specifics that you're willing to offer, please, you know,
00:32:58
Speaker
Anything that you can't talk about, don't talk about of course. Okay. But I just from like a business model perspective, I'm just curious. And again, this is a money podcast. So this is kind of what we do. How does it work in terms of how you create revenue in this space? What are your visions for how you want to expand? Just give us whatever nitty gritty you can share. Yeah. So there are several different avenues of
00:33:27
Speaker
revenue and potential. One of them is memberships. And so setting a scale that is accessible but encourages people to buy in by creating value and members only type of perks is one way that we just kind of keep a base level. We also have events, educational, creational, and
00:33:56
Speaker
recreational that you know also bring in income and some of our events have been really popular and then the others have been just a couple people but we still need to hold that type of space and get the education out. We do a lot of community care days like I have an event called After Care Sundays which is open to a wider community and not necessarily focused on BDSM or sexuality
00:34:26
Speaker
you know, included people. And then another way would be retail merchandise. We didn't really, in this phase of things, we didn't really expand into that, although it was a desire. Having your own products and tools and toys, for example, would be one way to like have retail like a little dungeon store. And then pretty much rentals, event rentals, private,
00:34:56
Speaker
opportunities for people to hold space privately and do their own thing. So those are our main ways of sustaining, you know, the building. We also do individual rentals for like one-on-one for sex workers and you know, pro-doms and photographers, anyone who just wants to come, you know, be in the space by themselves and, you know, take their clients. We do allow that as well with vetted, you know, people that are
00:35:23
Speaker
proven to be safe to bring into the space. So yeah, the imagination is kind of the only limit, but the more ways that you can offer services in any business is like the more potential to earn.
00:35:40
Speaker
Absolutely. So I have two questions from that. First one, circle back to the how you said the inner, what was the inner Haven? Yeah, the inner Haven, you commissioned an artist to create. So does that does the
00:36:05
Speaker
Does the retail store exist currently or is it something vision-wise in terms of like letting people kind of create their own pieces of art that can also be used? Is that something that you guys currently have or that's what you're like working towards? So yeah, we're working towards that. The pieces that we have in our gallery, the furniture pieces are
00:36:35
Speaker
When we have gallery nights, we kind of list them and the prices of them to work with that artist directly. But yeah, that's something that I'm working with him to kind of continue to, and I always refer him
00:36:51
Speaker
refer people to him when they ask me when they're interested in having their own. As far as our retail section, it was going to be more like, you know, personal implements and tools and toys and things like that, that you can use while you're on site here or take home with you. But yeah, the BDSM furniture is also part of, you know, that structure of things that could be
00:37:17
Speaker
Commission. I actually want to get into helping people create their BDSM spaces. I've helped people create their zen rooms and meditation. And interior design is like one of my many loves that I don't have time to make a whole business around. But I would love to kind of extend it as a service like here, let me help you get your little sex corner together or your pleasure room or whatever it is.
00:37:43
Speaker
that you're doing. And I also build as well. So we were really hands on with designing the tools, like I kind of designed the saw horse benches that we have. And we just gave him our vision and he's a master like woodsman, wood, wood crafter, woodworker. And he just, yeah, woodworker. Yeah, he just put so, so much love and energy
00:38:08
Speaker
into that. So yeah, I, um, I helped him with his business, but that, that part of things isn't necessarily our main retail goal. Did you see that show on Netflix? How to build a sex room. I loved it. It was so good. So good. And then my other question.
00:38:34
Speaker
was if you talked about memberships, not as only being a money podcast, but also as a platform for our guests. If someone is in Atlanta listening to this and they're really interested in learning more about you or becoming part of the gallery, what does that structure look like? Yeah.
00:39:04
Speaker
darkhavenatl.com is where you can go look at what memberships are currently available. And then there's a vetting process, which means come to an event, meet us, meet the people. But there's also a self-reporting application to start the vetting process. And then from there, we're pretty inclusive. We don't have major
00:39:33
Speaker
like qualifiers, you know, there's disqualifiers obviously, but we're also talking about restorative justice and how to let people who have maybe been ousted by other communities come be re-educated, come be held accountable and like work their way back into community space. It's just a matter of the desire to be in the space and then being able to, the memberships are really accessible, like $20, we simplified it, like $20 a month.
00:40:02
Speaker
And that comes with like a free class and discounted tickets outside of that. So a lot of our events, especially in this first year, were open to everyone because we were still getting the word out and we wanted to make sure people had an opportunity to come.
00:40:22
Speaker
check us out before they invested into like a year membership package at the time when we had those. So Darkhaven ATL is also on Instagram. And then me directly to work with me, Divine King Academy is my baby. Even if Darkhaven closes for a few months, Divine King Academy exists and lives online and serves as an educational space. And we hold events like retreats.
00:40:50
Speaker
and other traveling mobile type of events. So I would definitely say stalk me on the internet. And the divine kink on Instagram is like where you can go see the juicy clickbait and the funnels that get people over here to where the healing is happening. But I use it as more of an entertainment source and just sharing my thoughts.
00:41:19
Speaker
But yeah, I'm always looking for more community and people who are in alignment with just spaces that are safe for queer, trans, BIPOC. That's who our main market is. That's who we do this for. But there's a lot of spaces that are not for us and not accessible to us or not welcoming and inviting. And there's a big difference between tolerance and
00:41:49
Speaker
welcome. So that we try to just stand out in that way. But yeah, it just starts online, just doing some, some preliminary research. And then when people feel ready to come out, they can we have people traveling out from Tennessee, we've had people from California, DC area. So we do takeovers, we invite other educators out to come kind of like take over the space and do their own thing. So there's many opportunities to like just be involved.
00:42:18
Speaker
It's like a BDSM, we work. Yes. And I'm really, in the next instance of Darkhaven, I'd like to have more of a cooperative structure, even if there's like, you know, my elder, my community, my mentors, and they're telling me that co-oping things like
00:42:40
Speaker
brings more drama. So they're encouraging me to still remain in a place of power because I like to call myself a fair and just dictator. So I'm making decisions that are like for the good of us all and not based on like my own ego being stroked. So I am being encouraged to like have co-op but still me have the majority kind of vote so that there's never just a
00:43:08
Speaker
and uncomfortable environment created by me not wanting the burden of all the responsibility. And it can be a burden. It's not necessarily, there's privileges, but there's more so just responsibilities to being able to lead in that kind of way. Well, so as somebody who I would say is acknowledged and seen as, I would say really the leader in our community here in Atlanta and
00:43:39
Speaker
probably nationally. You've been in this industry for many years. You've had success. You're still creating. Well, you just tell us, anybody who's listening and who is trying to find their way in the industry, trying to find financial sustainability in this industry, what are some of the things that you've done other than multiple streams of income, but how do you do it?
00:44:08
Speaker
Um, so if I was going to say starting from the ground up, um, if I had no clients, no, if I just woke up one day, I wanted to do this, I would definitely use the internet and create, um, my platform with visuals and my philosophy and just getting myself out there. Also going to other people's events, finding community, um, and parties and meeting people that are in the lifestyle.
00:44:38
Speaker
and who may be looking for the type of services that someone might be providing. Education is key because a skilled dominant who specializes in a particular area, you kind of make yourself indispensable in that way when you're the leading
00:45:00
Speaker
needle play person or you work with whips or whatever your specialty is and you become known for that. Yeah, it does take objectifying yourself and looking at it in a neutral position as a business and not letting your emotions or your personal feelings of like maybe
00:45:22
Speaker
getting rejected or maybe not being accepted right away. That persistence is really key in building that rapport with people in the community and offering free services maybe or doing pro bono work, if you will. When I was getting my coaching started, I was kind of doing free sessions like, hey, I'm getting my formula together, I'm getting my
00:45:48
Speaker
my coaching business would you mind sitting in a coaching practice and then after that can I use your testimony to
00:45:55
Speaker
kind of promote these services, or will you give me feedback? And then little by little, just being able to charge 20 an hour, 30 an hour, 50, 100, and then having packages. And so like, because it's such a niche kind of thing, we have to use traditional marketing, like non-sexual marketing and business practices, and find ways to apply them, and then niche them down
00:46:23
Speaker
to where we can kind of stand out in a crowd, but also navigating all the sensory or censorship online. And so having your own platform where people can come and get the raw versions of what you're offering is definitely
00:46:40
Speaker
a valuable asset too. I built my, my current Instagram is like 13,000, but I got up to like 7,000 before and was wiped out. I was, I was being a bad boy. I was doing whatever the fuck I wanted to do on Instagram and, and just like, fuck your terms and services. I'm divine Ray. Like this is my internet.
00:47:04
Speaker
have a bone to pick. Because what's the fucking point of close friends on Instagram? If I can't post whatever the fuck I want on it, like I even started using that because I didn't trust it. I'm like, No, it's a setup. But
00:47:24
Speaker
I've been toying with the algorithm. I've been figuring out what can be posted and what can't, but it's annoying because someone was like, oh, we'll just start like a Twitter. And I'm like, well, I don't, the thing I love about Close Friends is that one, everyone that's been on there wants to be on there. So they want to see it. So there's consent involved. And I always do like a quarterly, monthly, hey, is this something you still want to be on? If not, you know, no hard feelings.
00:47:54
Speaker
But then two, I have control, because those people are on that, I have control of who's seeing what I'm posting. And I can see if someone screenshots it or whatever, when sometimes if you put something out there on Tumblr or, you know, X,
00:48:16
Speaker
you don't have that control, right? And certain people that are in certain jobs, because they're in the military, it's like, I can't I have to be careful about the things that I say or things that I post in certain in certain, you know, I have I've signed stuff for the government that says I won't do this on social media and this and that. So like, but I still want to be able to have that space. And that would, for me, I feel like close friends is such a
00:48:45
Speaker
easy thing, but then it's like, why are the terms and conditions the same? Because I feel like it's a different, I don't know, I just, that's my little like bone about that. Like I just. Yeah, I have several bones for also there was this, there's this, you know, it's talked about where black and brown creators are being more heavily targeted. When we're talking about like the controversy about nipples,
00:49:16
Speaker
Well, one, I was like, can I sue these people because I feel like you're forcing me to choose a gender, telling you I'm transmasculine or whatever I'm masculine or center. And so like me having my chest out is not necessarily for sexual arousal or purposes. Like if a cis-head man walks around with no shirt on, we're not blurring out his nipples.
00:49:39
Speaker
So why then is a transmasculine pre-op or may never op person being forced to be in a box with like female nipple or women nipples and stuff like that. Or there's always this, you know,
00:49:55
Speaker
policing of bodies, if you will. So I hate that shit. So I've after being ghost or disappeared by Twitter the first time or Instagram, excuse me, I, I'm not really active on X, but it's porn land over there. Like when I am feeling wild, and I want to just throw whatever I go there, but
00:50:16
Speaker
with Instagram, it's like, I can't really trust y'all. So I'm going to focus on growing the brand and sending people to my platform. Because even sites like OnlyFans and Patreon, they have, well, Patreon was the first to kind of crack down on sexually explicit content. And then, so I left there. And then OnlyFans, I still have, but I'm not so active. There was this whole
00:50:45
Speaker
uproar because they were changing their or considering changing their policies and all the sex workers were at risk of being deleted. They finally like after threats of everyone boycotting them they finally like backtracked on that and said okay well our funders are okay with it now. I think they were just they we call their bluff so I think the more people that move their things away
00:51:11
Speaker
I don't really have a platform outside of OnlyFans for my erotic content, but my website in general, where all my information lives eternally, is really important to me because of that censorship and because of these ongoing terms and conditions. Even Zoom is saying, well, we can use your content now. We can recreate it from your likeness. And there's all kind of predatory practices happening with just social media in general.
00:51:40
Speaker
It's one of those things where having your own website or your own little community discord, even lots of things. It's just like essential for people who are actually trying to create a business. Now, if it's just like for strictly your exhibition kink and you just want to like show your tits and ass every once in a while, like that's great. But it's risky because you can be, you can do all this work and then just be deactivated for
00:52:08
Speaker
Well, you three strikes or whatever, however many warnings they give you. And when I was deleted, it was crazy because I was, I was being really good for a while because I had gotten threatened and I wasn't even active. I wasn't even doing anything. I came back. So they're going, they're doing like retroactive censorship and going through your old posts. Like you may have gotten away with it two years ago.
00:52:29
Speaker
but now we're gonna give you a strike or remove your content or take the music away or whatever. And we saw that, we saw it happening with music too and like what you can post and stuff like that, so. Yeah, the one specific one, both of my close friends posts that have been flagged, I was grabbing my body. That's crazy. So it's like a weird, so there's something with like the hand on skin
00:52:58
Speaker
I was like, there's nothing, I was like, I've posted worse stuff, but this is what got flagged. And it was because, so that's one thing I have found is like they can clearly see like a hand on skin that's too sexual. Right. Well, one of the things is that, that we're kind of getting to is that
00:53:25
Speaker
allowing some other company to own your content is just not sustainable for the long term. And, you know, Divine, you mentioned that your website is so important to you because, you know, these other platforms do change the rules and are able to literally, you know, kind of ruin your business if that's the only place that you have your business. And so one thing that I do want to talk about briefly is
00:53:54
Speaker
Again, for somebody who is thinking about entering into this space or has been doing it for a few years and still kind of like not quite where they want to be, how do you, I guess like, for an industry that is so risky and that is always changing and where it honestly feels like a lot of folks aren't even making very much money, I think,
00:54:21
Speaker
the average that I've seen is like $30,000 a year. What is it about this industry that keeps bringing people back and how can somebody actually make it work for them? I think what keeps bringing people back is the, the ability to, to, when it's done right, you know, get that attention and hopefully financial attention, it's,
00:54:49
Speaker
That's a hard question because there's a secret formula for everybody and you have to just figure that out.
Online Platforms and Censorship in Kink Work
00:55:01
Speaker
Because I can tease on Instagram, I then have a, hey, come see this raw uncut over here. So there's still some value to dripping content or just having the less risque stuff.
00:55:15
Speaker
on Instagram, but it's just really important to make sure that you have that contingency plan or you're downloading your content or just keeping files in another place as well.
00:55:27
Speaker
Again, I think I've been, I was kind of ahead of the time when, it's very saturated also because everybody became a kink expert during lockdown and all the explorers, they started learning their own kinks. It's like, hey hun, we're at home. We can't go no fucking where. What are we going to do at this time? We're going to have sex.
00:55:50
Speaker
We're going to learn all the freaky shit about us, either that or we discovered we hate each other. I feel like there was like one or two things that happened with people that were like locked in together. So for the people who survived the pandemic, because they didn't hate each other, now that they were forced to spend time together, there's a lot of people that wanted to learn about Kink. And so I had a little bit of a head start.
00:56:17
Speaker
And I, but I feel this same kind of way when I'm thinking about taking my podcast more seriously, when I look at the market and there's like a mil, or actually the numbers, it was like 400,000 active podcasts. So while it seems saturated, there's still very much room for a niche. And that's the thing now, it's like, you have to niche down. For me, it's like sexuality and spirituality, you know, finding things that you can pull from your, your well,
00:56:44
Speaker
and connect the dots and bring something that's like, I haven't seen this, but I'm really good friends with Eli the Naked Trumpeter. And I think like, that's fucking amazing. Like you have this talent and your
00:56:58
Speaker
also erotic and you can use your horn in an erotic way. So I think it's really important for everybody to find like what makes them unique and not just say, oh, I see divine doing this. Let me mimic that. We have a lot of that too. And I know everyone has their own like spiritual practices and traditions and like, so there's so many avenues for people to present a similar kind of
00:57:24
Speaker
product or offering, but it's just really important to find your voice. Because for me, because I deal in energy and spirituality, anything that's authentic is going to resonate higher than just something that you're mimicking. If this isn't you, you're not going to be able to sustain that facade. So that's the main thing right now for people. And that's what I do sometimes for the most part at the Divine Kink Academy is really helping people
00:57:54
Speaker
develop themselves and find the dominance or the power or the submissive within themselves. And what does that look like? What are your cultural backgrounds? What are your interests? What is your sexual deviance? And how can we make this a unique thing? So finding that is the most important thing. And then it's just the consistency and finding the people who want that.
00:58:18
Speaker
And I'm grateful for the internet because you don't have to be in your target market. You don't have to live in your target market because it's accessible via the web.
00:58:33
Speaker
A lot of these questions are like obviously just hypothetical because it's, you know, very specific to the person, the brand, their motivation, their drive, what education they have. I'm always looking at some, like who has more followers than me? Like what is this hundred thousand or million follower
00:58:52
Speaker
account doing that I can find inspiration to and make it my own. Like what can I do that was similar to this but not copying what they're doing? So I watch a lot of content from creators that have nothing to do with sex or BDSM and I'm like, oh, I like these transitions on your reel.
00:59:10
Speaker
I'm going to try this and how can we make this kinky? Or what can I do that Oprah just did? I was about to say fuck Oprah and I just did say fuck Oprah, but that's not how my heart feels. I'm just really upset at a lot of the elites and how the money is being used in bad ways.
00:59:30
Speaker
And I'm an activist also, so it's like, yeah, I get a little passionate sometimes, but at one point Oprah was someone I admired and I learned about like the law of attraction through her. And so I'm like, I look at other people who are doing things that I dream of, right? But I wanna apply it to myself. And when you're first waking up to yourself, you don't really know who that is, so it's okay to find inspiration to practice.
00:59:57
Speaker
Being something but it just about for me was when I really kind of struck gold and found consistency is when I Like this is who I am like this is these are my offerings This is my particular way of doing it and I stuck with that versus jumping on every single little trend That you see happening with business or with you know, social media Absolutely
01:00:21
Speaker
Well, so we have been talking for a long time because you are an amazing human who does amazing things. So I think we knew this was going to happen. So I'm here for it. That said, one thing that I definitely want to make sure that we talk about is kind of like what you were saying. So your individual stake in the ground, the thing that you're bringing into the world, you mentioned that you have already purchased or in the process of purchasing land in Arizona.
Future Visions: Retreat Space and Sustainability
01:00:51
Speaker
So.
01:00:53
Speaker
I did, so when we spoke, yeah, we just put money down on some land in Arizona, but when we were doing the due diligence, cause it was sight unseen, it's just all online. When I was doing the diligence, it's bad lands and it would be really hard to kind of establish what I want for that area. So I, within that little 30 day guarantee time, I kind of withdrew from that, but I'm still looking for retreat land. There's a thing that I call my final destination and it's,
01:01:22
Speaker
meet on a retreat land, have offering people opportunities to get out of the rent cycle to come live off grid to come learn a skill or write your book or finish your thesis or whatever the fuck it is that capitalism is kind of stopping you from doing, but also offering healing, hedonism, so an all inclusive type of space, but like,
01:01:48
Speaker
a retreat. And there, Aleta Tantra Institute, Goddess Amina from Aleta Tantra Institute is my hero, my heroine. And she always says, I use my business model, you know, find your own niche, but this is the path and it's working. And she invites people. And she has a retreat center, a retreat home in Costa Rica, that I look forward to visiting in 2024. But
01:02:11
Speaker
When I think about that and how she came from sex work and established her business and is continuing to bring an offering to the world that is not only useful but needed, that gives me the hope and inspiration that I can do the same for myself and my brand. There's obviously never going to be enough retreats in the world, but I'm focusing on rest activism and pleasure activism and
01:02:42
Speaker
kind of just creating another space. Like you might not be able to get to Costa Rica or to Ecuador to go do plant medicine, but you know there's a space in the States. So I'm kind of looking at landing Georgia now. I am spiritualist. My high priestess told me I'm not supposed to leave Atlanta quite yet or leave Georgia.
01:02:59
Speaker
So myself and my new wife, we're looking for land in Georgia so that we can create the same thing and do off-grid living, but not struggle. I want to have an off-grid paradise and you can come be naked and be in the hot tub or saunas or whatever.
01:03:22
Speaker
With that, it'll be using Airbnb opportunities to help develop the land and having a co-op and a collective there, people that can steward the land if I'm traveling because I want to be nomadic and just go other places. But having that hub for myself to come rest and recenter, but also offer that to other people, that's really important to me. It's like no matter any business that I've done,
01:03:50
Speaker
I always try to have a kind of social justice element to it. So for me, this work that I'm doing now, it's centered on social justice. It's just via pleasure and embodiment, because a lot of us don't have access to our sexuality, our spirituality, or just central nature. A lot of it is shunned.
01:04:13
Speaker
So having that space that's like, okay, you can come here, learn kink, learn tantra, learn plant medicine, rest, don't learn anything. Just fucking come twiddle your balls and get out of fucking rent for six months. I want to do residencies. So this is a big, it's a big dream of mine, but I'm like, I'm turning 40 this year or in May this coming year, and I need to make sure that
01:04:36
Speaker
I'm in alignment with more of those goals. So with that, it means pulling energy back from Darkhaven, creating more of a co-op and a collaborative effort. So Darkhaven or space similar can exist while I continue my journey. So yeah. That's incredible. It also sounds like the perfect location for our next season of our podcast.
01:05:05
Speaker
Bevan and I joke. Bevan and I, it's kind of like a running joke where after, usually after our recording sessions, we just like text each other and we're like, why can't we just have a cute little recording space where we just bring in our guests, we get to wine and dine them, have a little production team, just take care of us. And this is just the thing that we do because we love it.
01:05:33
Speaker
I love that. And I feel like it can happen too, especially with creating content online or think like, if we look at the numbers, like a lot of podcasts are moving to YouTube, and there's that visual element of it. When we think about like, daytime TV in the 90s, for example, right, and how these shows were, they were talk shows, they're like, we're there the podcast of that day. So we it's kind of like history repeating itself. And I feel like
01:06:02
Speaker
there's a niche and a space for everyone who is living in their authentic energy. So if this is what you're doing, and I see that it is, and listening to doing homework on y'all and listening to some previous things, it seems like this is something that money and business and
01:06:25
Speaker
connecting them with sex and all the things. It's like you found your niche items and it's just about maintaining that consistency. But having that clear goal, how do we do that? What are the people that we need? And just finding out, just fucking buy some land and put a warehouse on it and develop it and grow. I like the idea of owner financing land because you can
01:06:49
Speaker
It gives access to so many more people that we're not able to purchase. Right now, I want five to 10 acres, but Georgia acreage is really expensive. And so to make it even feasible, I need to have that financial ability to finance. But also, my credit is a little shady, because I'm a hedonist, and sometimes I'll work.
01:07:17
Speaker
and stack up and then I might not work for three months and so like there's this gap of income sometimes where like my number might be high but if you're asking me for six bank statements you're gonna get a very questionable like
01:07:34
Speaker
record there. So I, we have to create these services for ourselves. So I will keep that in mind on if, if I beat you to it and I get my land, because this is the type of thing, like, this is the kind of life that I'm setting up for myself. So it's just about finding other community who wants to do that. And you're poly and queer and POC also like Bevin, like we, yeah, you would definitely qualify. So I'll save a little corner on the
01:08:02
Speaker
on the land. It doesn't need to be big. You know, and for what it's worth, you know, spent $70,000 renovating this house, doing it ourselves. So I have a lot of handy talents. So I will never do drywall again, though. Oh, yeah. I learned it and the standing part of it is like, what the fuck?
01:08:31
Speaker
No. Never again. Never again. I wanted to go to homes and like, you know, like Adobe, Cobb, you know, stuff like that, like natural, natural building materials and just live more harmoniously with nature, but then use the internet to get money. And yeah, so I think I answered that. That was a question. Well, I think this is
01:08:59
Speaker
this conversation has been amazing. And I feel like I have a lot of ideas for how I need to be crafting my life now that we've had this conversation. So I thank you for that. Before we go, is there anything else that you would like to share with the audience about what you're doing, what's in the future for you, how they can find you, et cetera? Yeah. So right now I'm, I'm,
01:09:29
Speaker
gearing up for my hibernation period and just putting more energy into the Divine Kink Academy. We're bringing in new instructors. We're bringing in more courses and things, opportunities for people to study, study, self-study and live study courses. So that's, that's what I would tell people is where you can find me right now is divinekinkacademy.com.
01:09:58
Speaker
divine kink on instagram but a lot of my energy will be going into that especially during this little hiatus that dark haven is taking because the market is shitty so we're looking for the right space and knowing what i know about
01:10:14
Speaker
this type of building, again, I'm just really selective for setting up the future. But online and having my offerings is really the goal for this next quarter. And then we're also in development or we're going to be looking for land and stuff like that. So it's just a good way to stay in touch with me is just jump on the email list at divinekinkacademy.com and just keep an eye out. Even when I go into hibernation or go under a rock, like I always come back
01:10:45
Speaker
Until the day I like ascend into the heavens, I'll always be like reinventing myself and figuring out how to be in community to the collective on a grander scale. So I'm always wanting to outdo myself, but I'm
01:11:00
Speaker
I'm getting to where I want that final destination picture that I told you. So all roads are pointing towards that. And so I'm just meeting folks who are into land justice and who write grants and who are able to help me connect the dots and get funding for podcasts. For example, I meant to mention that also. A friend of mine just told me about some grants that she received for her mental health
01:11:30
Speaker
podcast and I'm like, okay, well, let's see, you know, what type of funding exists. Yeah. So that's my main goal now is like, how do I be, how do I make it really sustainable? Like you said, Michael, you want to work cause you want to not cause you fucking have to. So, and, and you're just doing it for the love of it and let the production team like,
01:11:49
Speaker
you know, earn their salary. So I think that's a good way for me is like, how can we fund this project? I've always been like a self funding kind of individual, but that puts me on a rat race or a rat, a will, what is it? The mouse will.
01:12:05
Speaker
Hands are real. Yes. Bringing money in, but running and having to go to get it and to sustain it. So I want to just have the funding and have the budget for whatever projects and kind of stick to that budget. That's a lot of my
01:12:22
Speaker
where my discipline is right now is like hedonism and discipline. While I want my leisure and I want my rest and my play, I take every Monday off. I don't take meetings. I don't do anything that doesn't give me pleasure. Sometimes it's meetings because it's a project I want to work on. But other than that, I need to know
01:12:43
Speaker
what each dollar is being allotted to. So that way I can plan my rest and know that the project is still like being cared for. So yeah, the Divine King Academy is my main goal right now. I'd like that to be my primary income, but also my primary offering for people to
01:13:08
Speaker
That was fantastic. And if you're looking for a financial coach to help support you in those budgeting goals, I know someone who would love to help you with that. Shameless plug. Hashtag. Yay. Let's do it. I love to, let's barter, you know? It's like, what kinky shit can I teach you? Or what can I offer you in exchange for this? Because I'm definitely upping my financial literacy.
01:13:33
Speaker
I am also a small business coach, so. Hashtag shameless plug. Let's do it. Yeah, it seems like there's some opportunities for collaboration happening. Yeah. Thank you. Well, this has been amazing. What was that? I said, I will be in touch and asking about these services. Perfect.
01:13:57
Speaker
Well, thank you again for your time. This has been such a great conversation and you're an amazing person. So thank you for blessing us with your energy. We appreciate it. Yeah, I'm so grateful. I'm happy that things aligned and I'm looking forward to seeing more of the Dirty Money podcast and seeing all these other juicy conversations. So I appreciate you holding space for me. Yes, absolutely.
01:14:24
Speaker
So I think that's it. Bye. That was fun. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe. That's the easiest way to support our show.
01:14:46
Speaker
We hope you took away a new nugget of information or perspective today. And we're grateful you took the time to listen to us. Until next time, bye. Bye.