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The Financial Journey of a Drag Queen with Harriet Tugsmen
61 Plays10 months ago
SUMMARY
Welcome to another episode of Dirty Money with Bevin and Mike! Today, we're joined by the one and only Harriet Tugsmen! She is here to share her unexpected journey into the world of drag performance, insights into various income streams within the industry, and her exciting aspirations for the future. Despite some technical hiccups—thanks to Christian nationalist hackers who hate fun — we're thrilled to bring you this enlightening and hilarious conversation.
TOPICS
[2:15] Becoming Harriet Tugsman
[12:10] On The Courage to Try Again
[15:55] Money Mindfulness as a Performer
[22:30] Diversifying Income Streams
[40:00] Plans & Dreams for the Future
[46:51] Drag Queens Help Heal the World
RESOURCES & LINKS
Connect with Harriet Tugsmen
Instagram: @harriet_tugsman
TikTok: @harriet_tugsman
Tiparations: @TipHarriet
Other Resources Mentioned:
- Wait, Take Me Off Speaker Podcast
- See Harriet LIVE
- Fri: 7 pm @rockbarnyc
- Sun: 5pm @hardware
- Cohost @takemeoffpodcast
- Friendly Black Hotties - 3rd Thursday every month @rockbarnyc
CONTACT INFO
Bevin Morgan:
Instagram: @bevinmorgan & @temple_eanna
Website: www.templeeanna.com & BevinMorgan.com
Mike Poulin:
Instagram: @mjpou56
Dirty Money Podcast:
Instagram: @dirtymoney_podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Dirty Money' and Its Mission
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Dirty Money with Bevin. And Mike. A space to talk about financial topics for folks who don't fit into traditional financial spaces. We believe money is a tool for everyone. Our mission is to provide a literal microphone and platform for queer, BIPOC, polyamorous, and sex-positive individuals. No topic is off the table here.
00:00:31
Speaker
That being said, one tiny little housekeeping note. For those listening who may have others with sensitive ears, the listener discretion is advised because we do not censor ourselves. That's right. You've been warned, but enough from us. Let's get this episode started.
Guest Introduction: Harriet Tugsman, Drag Performer
00:00:54
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to Dirty Money with Bevan and Mike. I'm your host today, Mike, with my co-host Bevan. Hi, Bevan. Hello, hi. I'm so happy to be here. And today we have the honor of interviewing the insatiable, incredible Harriet Tugsman. Welcome. Hello, hello, everybody. Hello, hello. Hi, hi. Too kind, too kind. Oh.
00:01:23
Speaker
What is going on? How's everyone doing today? I'm doing all right. You know, it's snowy here in D.C. I don't know how it is over there. And you're in New York, correct? Yes, I am in the great state of New York. We're known for apples and rats. A winning combination. I love it. What is it? Are you all like snowed under up there right now? New York City is never really snowed under. I'm pretty sure like Jersey's underwater
00:01:53
Speaker
Upstate's probably gone. But like for the most part, New York City global warming isn't full effect here Fantastic. We love that for you. True Yeah Yeah, so
Harriet's Journey into Drag
00:02:05
Speaker
I'm Harriet. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself who you are what you do and We'll just jump right into it Yeah. Hi. My name is Harriet Tubbsman. I have been a professional drag queen here in New York for about two years now and
00:02:23
Speaker
I am an accidental full-time drag performer. And by accidental, I started this with a full-time job, a part-time job at the same time. And then they all decided that they wanted to see other people. And so I now work in drag full-time. And that's it. My name's Harriet Tubbsman. I am a reverent.
00:02:50
Speaker
space all of my stuff in blackness and black queer culture and black history. I like to call that my tips are called Tipperations. So that's kind of me and a little bit of a nutshell.
Podcast Co-hosting and Future Plans
00:03:04
Speaker
And you also have your own podcast, which I have thoroughly been enjoying as well. I often forget, yes, I am also a co-host of a podcast called Wait, Take Me Out Speaker.
00:03:17
Speaker
with Micah, Judy. I think at this point, his name is now going as Big Apple Jacks. We are trying to brand him. But yes, yes, we just wrapped up, not just wrapped, we wrapped our first season last year and we're kicking it back up now. Awesome. I can't wait for more episodes. So yes, I can't wait for people to come up and tell me about things I said that I have fully forgotten that I have said. They will say so many things to me. I'm just like,
00:03:48
Speaker
I said that. And I'm like, Oh, I
Challenges of Full-Time Drag
00:03:52
Speaker
still stand by that. Like it was a special time, but I still stand by when I said so that's
00:04:01
Speaker
One thing I want to first dive into is you started drag at a time in your life when you were working full time and had a part-time job as well in New York because I think you have to in New York, right? Like it's just the reality.
00:04:21
Speaker
Don't laugh at my pain. Don't laugh at my pain. Oh, it's not pain. As someone who has three incomes here in DC, I get it. Commiseration. What were some of the challenges that you had with that shift? Well, the main challenge is that it was unwanted in a shift. OK.
00:04:47
Speaker
I think through everybody, like the pandemic hit everybody in a different way. Like right before the pandemic hit, I was working for this company. I have been with them for almost three to four years. And then like as any tech company that starts going under, so like I got laid off in November of 2019. And so like at that point, it was like one of those jobs where you're just like wildly stressed out all the time.
00:05:11
Speaker
You, so I was like, you know, I'm going to take some time. I had also just gotten broken up with. So baby, I was getting, I was in a gym. I was revenge body. I was taking time off. I was like, I'm going to find myself. I mean, it's going to be like, love me. And then January, 2020 hit. And I was just like, got sick and I was just like, okay, let me start looking for jobs. Literally landed a job a day before the shutdown happened of New York city and then lost that job.
00:05:41
Speaker
two months later, because everything was just, the job was literally throwing events in offices. So like, the writing was, we didn't know how long things were happening. But like, you know, the writing, looking back on it, like, baby, Red Realm was on the wall.
00:06:01
Speaker
So Bevin and I are probably feeling the same thing. We had a very similar, our old job that we worked at was very event-based, physical locations.
00:06:13
Speaker
And so it was the same thing. Like we had a very similar, we, fortunate enough, were there a little bit longer than two months during the pandemic, but it was the writing on the wall, right? It was just like the next wave of layoffs, the this and that, the restructuring. So like, we feel your pain. And our HQ was in New York City. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:06:40
Speaker
It was so funny, like one of the companies I worked with was Salt Lake City, and they were the last to shut things down. They were just like, yes, send us our stuff. We're going to have this. Oh, we're having a nice little snow cone day. I was like, Mama, even the rats aren't coming out here, but you're out here celebrating at Salt Lake City. All right. They're like, Mormon Jesus has got our back. We'll be just fine. Right, baby. The settlers were still out there on the trail.
00:07:11
Speaker
they hadn't died of dysentery yet. So how because I mean, you said that you were essentially like laid off during this whole COVID time.
Makeup and Drag Debut at Albatross
00:07:20
Speaker
And presumably, that's when you started doing drag full. So like, how did that transition even happen? So I'm sorry, I am no pretender. So please pull me back in. Gotcha. So what kind of happened? I
00:07:36
Speaker
Like everybody else, we were just consuming a lot of media. So for me, I started looking at, particularly I got obsessed with Jackie Aina's. Aina's, I think that's how you say her last name. She is a black beauty guru on YouTube. She's been in the game for like, I want to say maybe seven plus years. So I was trying to get obsessed because everybody's like, I have to be like this. Hello. This is the new palette.
00:08:02
Speaker
If you see like, so I got obsessed because like everybody was talking about these eye palettes. I was like, okay, like what is happening up in the makeup world? Cause I think we were hearing about James Charles and his bullshit. Oh, can I curse on here? Oh yes, please. Okay. His bullshit. So like you're hearing about all these weird little tits happening. So I started consuming a lot of these makeup videos and so I was like, you know what? I got a lot of free time.
00:08:27
Speaker
the government was finally saying that we were actually human beings and sending that nice little truck. So, you know, I was using some of that little money and I was like, let me go get some like Trixie cosmetics, some kimchi cosmetics. I just started playing in makeup as something to do. And then actually Jay, who at the time worked, lived across the street from this bar called Albatross here in Astoria. They were like, they're doing a debutante ball. So I was like, well, I've been playing in makeup for the past half year and let me just put this little show on.
00:08:58
Speaker
And that was kind of like, you know, murder. She wrote after that. I love it. So most people, you know, learned how to bake sourdough during the pandemic. You learned how to become a drag queen. I learned how to cut a crease, huh? Tea. Well, yeah, like I just wanted to I am not a good cook. I suck at math. So like baking was never going to be an option for me because that is exact science, failed chemistry. So that was not going to work. So.
00:09:27
Speaker
makeup is what I kind of just kind of fell into. I love that. So I just imagine the viewers are just like makeup, her.
00:09:40
Speaker
Yes, for those listening, if you are listening to us on Apple Podcasts, there's full video of every episode. I don't think we've ever said that. So yes, so our guest today, she is in full drag right now. She looks incredible. So, you know, get into it. So pandemic hit, makeup,
00:10:08
Speaker
this ball happened. What happened after that? What was kind of your trajectory?
Overcoming Early Performance Challenges
00:10:16
Speaker
My trajectory after that, there was this lovely performer named Misty Mountains here. She allowed me to come to a tip spot, and it was one of the worst performances I had ever done in my life. I'm just going to describe this for you all. For a drag persona, usually, I'll say the most typical is you have padding, you have corseting,
00:10:37
Speaker
Um, and padding could be either you're choosing to do the illusion of having full breasts or big hips and ass. And I bought my costume from Amazon. I hadn't really learned how to do wigs. And during my performance, I literally every piece of clothing betrayed me. You had a full on Janet Jackson, um, super bowl malfunction. I mean, like, yeah, it's more so like, um,
00:11:07
Speaker
Imagine like you finally got like a Barbie doll and then you like took the arm off and you look inside and it's just like just rotted garbage because like the illusion was being like the shirt came up so you're seeing like all of my censure because I didn't really have full body like I was still learning at the time of what it meant to get your body done so like that happened and then I took about three months to just like kind of digest
00:11:36
Speaker
the horror that had happened at that performance. And then I kind of redebuted a similar version to this at Rock Bar for the Mix Rock Bar contest. So that's how I kind of got my star. And like, that's when like the steam really, like the water really started kind of boiling for me. And after that is when I started getting bookings and it just kind of kept snowballing.
00:12:00
Speaker
How are you able to maintain the courage to try it all over again, though? Because I mean, just putting yourself out there in the first place is hard. Putting yourself out there in a full illusion is additionally hard. And then having this kind of devastating first experience, I can't even imagine. It was more so. I think the way I got really, so let me also break this in two parts. I am not scared of performing.
00:12:30
Speaker
Unlike a lot of the performers in Hell's Kitchen weaponized their BFAs in musical theater, I went to school for songwriting. So prior to that, singing, I did a lot of classical singing, a lot of performances. So that part never really scared me. It just kind of became easier when I created the character of Harriet Tubman, because if I take this makeup off, cut out, and we're live. So particularly, I didn't
00:13:00
Speaker
get discouraged because like I also want to make sure I didn't paint like myself so that way that like this is like a suit of armor. I feel like I'm about to go to church but like I put the suit of armor of God on and you know got back up so like that wasn't so difficult for me because I knew Harriet was a persona and I take this makeup off. You know I look like Shamor Moore and like so these are two different people that we're dealing with in this space. Did I hit you? Did I hit you? You know
00:13:30
Speaker
John Amos is under this. Baby, it takes a village, and it takes about three and a half hours. That is correct. Other things I can't talk about legally, lawsuit. But yeah, for something that wasn't intentional for me,
00:14:00
Speaker
a bit jarring because I've always been in a nine to five space, health insurance, you know, commuter tax benefits. You know, like I've always kind of been in that realm and drag for me was also a space for me to release a lot of the pent up energy. So if I always approached it from like, I want to do whatever I want it to do.
00:14:29
Speaker
So when you go into a full time and you start working in these spaces, I would be lying to say I didn't change a bit of my drag persona so that way that I can make money because it's a bit of a give and take. I need your dollars. So I need to kind of give what, you know, not necessarily what you want, but like I have to give a certain side of me that I probably wouldn't have to do if I knew I had a nine to five financing everything else. And it's real easy when you have, you know, that's fuck you money when you have, you know, a steady paycheck coming in.
Financial Strategies in Drag
00:15:00
Speaker
It's not necessarily fuck your money when you have a mansion. It's whenever I can creatively do whatever I wanna do. Yeah, how have you, through that transition, I know it was kind of abrupt and not on your terms necessarily, but how have you kind of like regulated yourself with that in terms of like shifting from this is something that I enjoy doing and do on my terms to, hey, I have to say yes to this
00:15:30
Speaker
rents to, right? You know, like, what, what have you done personally to kind of keep your peace? Oh, there, or maybe you have it. You know, it's one of those things that like, unfortunately, for me, I feel like in this in, in my world, it's kind of like a week by week case. Like, you know, the closer we get to the first, the more I'm like,
00:15:58
Speaker
I'm sorry for those of you who aren't watching. I am nervously shaking because you want to make sure that you have enough bookings, you're having to plan out. And particularly for me, for my version of Fuck You Money, I didn't plan. I didn't have to worry because I knew on the 1st and the 15th, this was coming. I did not have to think. So now, unfortunately, which
00:16:22
Speaker
I don't know if this is good or not, but I hate constantly thinking about money. It's something that is always on my mind. More so than ever. I think about everything. I think of that dollar going out. Before I used to be like, you know what? I will try these foundations. I'm not trying new shit. I'm going to try the two products.
00:16:41
Speaker
There is no money to be wasted if you want to give it to me for free. Yes, but like that has been like the biggest shift for me is like I think about every penny that goes out the door and comes in and forecasting like snow happening. Like I'm thinking OK, it's a Friday. People usually come out, but if it's actually starts snowing or it's raining like I am looking at here the weather. I am looking at what's happening with the train systems like I am trying to forecast financially what that night is going to be like.
00:17:10
Speaker
You know, it's very interesting. I've never seen an industry be so volatile and what I've made it looks like. I think, you know, since I want to say Drag Race, RuPaul's Drag Race came out 2008. I think from like 2008 to about 2015 that or I'll say maybe. Why not 2016? That was an I've made it moment. I think anything past that has now changed because there's so many different franchises.
00:17:41
Speaker
What is it? A lawyer makes the most money when they find a niche market? And drag is no longer a niche market. It's not something that is pigeonholed exclusively to America. You're seeing it in Paris, you're seeing it in Belgium, you're seeing it in Thailand, you're seeing it in the UK, you're seeing it in Mexico, Canada, Philippines. I'm pretty sure Japan is next. So where you were as an American drag performer, you could go on that show and then tour the world.
00:18:11
Speaker
go on that show and you're kind of coming back and working the same gigs. So, and that's like no shade. It's just, it's hard when you are in a very, I don't want to use the word polluted because that's a negative connotation, but like there's a lot of us out there. It's hard, it's hard to concentrate in. Yes. And I think the other thing that's really as an avid watcher of the show,
00:18:37
Speaker
I think that it has now become kind of a, it used to be at this, you've made it. I feel like it's now become, okay, what do you do after you're on the show?
00:18:49
Speaker
What do you, like, are you going to be a Trixie that just does everything, right? Are you going to be, you know, or are you going to be like someone like, you know, Sasha Colby, who already had this incredible kind of career and just came on the show just because, right? You know, like, I feel like she's just like, I'm just going to walk down and do this thing.
00:19:11
Speaker
And, you know, there are, and then I feel like there's a few others too that I'm blanking right now that it's just like, they use that show to then bolster, um, yes, just really kind of catapult themselves into other things.
Evolving Drag Scene and RuPaul's Impact
00:19:27
Speaker
And, you know, so it's like, what do you do? And I think they start talking about that too, on the show now where it's like, what are you going to, what are you going to do after this? Because there's just, so.
00:19:41
Speaker
I think, yeah, they've always said like the true race starts after drag race. And, but I don't, and even in that conversation, I don't think we're going to, it's going to be very hard to become another Trixie. It's going to be very hard to become another Bob the drag queen. It's, it's difficult because as I said, it's such a con, as you said, a concentrated space now that there's so much. And, you know, even the conversation that I have with other drag performers, they're like, do you want to go on that show? And for me, I'm going to say no.
00:20:11
Speaker
That's not like an end goal for me because you it's a gamble. You're spending a lot of money to go on this show. You could be, you know, upwards. Some performers are taking loans up to $100,000 to have this costumes are expensive. So like, you know, good, good costumes, even bad costumes are expensive, you know, you know,
00:20:38
Speaker
Like I, you know, like to go back into it, you know, like this year I said, OK. I looked at how much money I spent on websites buying, you know, costumes and wanting to push my drag into new areas. Like I'm going to have to make my own costumes. But even when you start looking at. Just the fabric, the trinkets, all that stuff, like sometimes I understand how fast fast fashion
00:21:05
Speaker
is here because like, I made one costume, I was like, in total, just not even like the man hours, I was like already at like 200 to 250. And I hadn't even put it together. Fabric materials, if you want things to look nice, do you want ostrich feathers versus, you know, rooster, you know, or versus turkey. So like all these things start coming into play where it's an expensive space to be in.
00:21:35
Speaker
So when I see these performers go on that show, I'm thinking that's a gamble. You don't know if they're going to get a good edit, if you're going to be liked by the fans. So for me, I've adjusted that. Like my goal is I want to produce events in a space where I'm booking RuPaul's Drag Race performers. To me, that's kind of like an I've made it moment where I'm giving you the job opportunity because
00:21:58
Speaker
That's something I've learned through this journey of being booked for gigs, then having the opportunity to work my own party, saw the pitfalls of that, and then worked with another party that has been successful in seeing how much you make on doors. That is where now my mind is shifting. It's like, $1,000 in tips would be great at night, but that is a far and rare occurrence for me specifically. I think that that's a really good
00:22:26
Speaker
thing to bring up what as a drag performer, um, I know for every drag performer, it's probably a little different based off of location and popularity and things like that.
Diversifying Income Streams
00:22:36
Speaker
What are some of your largest income streams? Most of my largest income streams are usually if I am working a party. That means I'm probably having shared revenue at the door. That means if there's a deal with the bar, I'm having maybe a shared revenue of like, how am I increasing your bar sales? So like,
00:22:57
Speaker
I have structured some deals where I have show pay, and if I reach a certain amount of money in alcohol sales, I get additional. So I had to think this year, it feels like everybody knows the recession is coming. So like, how do I diversify my drag income where it's not just tips? How do I push that other areas? So starting a podcast, putting a Patreon together,
00:23:27
Speaker
having, I hate TikTok, I hate social media, but I have to now move into that area. So sometimes it's like, I have to figure out what's unique for myself. And then I also have to realize where people are and have to go get it. About that, the shows that you do, do you negotiate those kind of contracts? And how do you, if you do, how do you do that? Because that's really, really kind of interesting to me.
00:23:57
Speaker
I think yes, I do. And as I said, I think what has benefited me, I used to work as an events manager. So I've worked with negotiating contracts. That is something I can easily do in my sleep. So I already know the value. I already know how much it costs for a head to come in. I speak directly to a bar owner as I am one of them, because I know what it's like to be on the other side. I know how much it costs for a venue, how much you need to have, you know, to have your lights on, to have your staff there. Are we having a door? Like I understand that. So I speak directly
00:24:26
Speaker
to their pain points. So that helps me with the negotiation and contract part of it. That's so smart. Sorry. That was pretty immediate. Because I've always known that like an event space like okay, so how many I actually can talk about this company, they're dead, they're gone. So I worked for this company called galvanize and galvanize was a
00:24:53
Speaker
tech education space where you would come in and you could learn either web development or you could become a data scientist. So I knew if I had an event I needed to have at least 10 heads sign up for our introductory course. So if I got 10 people to sign up for introductory course then that was at least $100,000 that was coming in if they were going to do the $10,000 that would cost to get in. So like I was already thinking about that process so like the moment I started doing my own shows
00:25:20
Speaker
I knew that if I made $3,000 on that stage and that bar made only $200 in sales, I'm not going to get asked back. So I knew that I had to shift it. Sometimes you just have to bite and be like, you know, this was a shit night.
00:25:37
Speaker
But if I can continue to get them to have drinks and they may not tip me out, that at least means that I have another chance to come back in and make money and continue having at least a steady gig that people can come see me at. So I know that bar sales is what the bars care about. They don't care about my talent. They don't care about how I look. They care about the end of the day, them not being in the red. Who are you bringing in? What's the traffic look like?
00:26:06
Speaker
That's really smart, and I think that if you're looking for an additional income stream, I feel like that's a great opportunity for you to feel like that's not a skill set a lot of drag queens have. Well, it's specifically, right, it's specifically with your industry, right? I think that a lot of girls could benefit from
00:26:34
Speaker
learning kind of stuff. Yeah, I think all performers could benefit. And I talked to like, I'm from the newer drag generation where like we are, we all love each other. We're very nice and we share resources, which, cause like I hate people gatekeeping information like that. Like, especially like if I want you to do good so that I can get that booking so we can do good. So like, I'm always talking to people. I'm like, ask what your bar sales are, journal that shit every time I would ask,
00:27:03
Speaker
One of my good duties I work with at Rock Bar Joey, I'm like, how did we do last year? Because we're about to, I have a show there at Rock Bar called Friendly Black Hotties, and we're about, we just hit our two year anniversary. And so I'm always looking like, okay, what did we do last year? Did we do better this year? Are our numbers going up? Are our numbers going down? How do we need to pivot? And sometimes you kind of have to, you are the,
00:27:30
Speaker
the Jesus of drinking, you have to save the children to get them to drink. So that is primarily my main role at a bar. Being funny and putting on a show is kind of second to that, if I'm thinking about it in financial terms and longevity.
00:27:53
Speaker
Yeah, because in New York, oh God, bars and dating are the same. It's the next best thing. Who's over here? What could be offered? How can I feel what's there? So you have to like constantly be thinking about what is the next best thing and how can you keep these people here? Without lighting yourself on fire. I think that's a little bit regional.
00:28:20
Speaker
I'll say like the next best thing I think like for a lot of drag performers, because of the impact of RuPaul's Drag Race, there is now a huge market of white heteronormative women who love watching Drag Race. They're not going to come to a gig that starts at 12. So like the main thing that people love and like the most successful thing people want is a brunch. It's brunch.
00:28:47
Speaker
You get to come during the daytime. You get drunk in your home by 10. And that little homosexual just did a little dip for you and did a backflip that you saw happen. The world is great. So I think like, I think regardless of what region, everybody wants a successful brunch because we want white women across America to give me your money. And I will gladly continue to operations.
00:29:16
Speaker
And if you are a white woman listening to this, go to Tip Harriet on Vidmo. Yes. We'll also put it in the show notes. So yeah, we'll get you there. Yeah, that's actually funny that you bring up the brunch. That's one of my friends who's an event planner here in D.C.
00:29:38
Speaker
And he has a very successful, he calls it his home brunch, H-O-M-M-E. And so he typically, they have different themes. But the main draw is that there are two homes that walk around in very little clothing that refill your drinks. And then there's also usually a drag performer as well, or at least one.
00:30:01
Speaker
And they're just, they're so much fun. They're, they are, but they're also so expensive. So like, I can only go to one, like once a month because I can't. So what would you say is the cause for that? Is it all, I'm pretty sure they have one fee regardless if you're drinking or not. Or is that a separate cause?
00:30:22
Speaker
It's a separate class. So they'll do the bottomless as its own, but typically he'll book at places that also have a bottomless brunch. So you can do the package or you can do just the food if you're non-alcoholic.
00:30:41
Speaker
So, and it's still a good time. I have sober friends that go and you know, but it's like you also as a participant, right? Like I also want to make sure I have enough cash for the performers and for the boys that are refilling my drinks, right? So it's not just the food and the drink, but you also want to make sure that you're adequately tipping the performers and the staff. So,
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah, I know it's it's a it's a really great event like I said every sometimes it's like Like artist theme so like I've been to Lady Gaga wine He had one for it, you know, everyone had a Barbie wine, right? Like I feel like that's pretty much whatever is culturally relevant at the time will be the game for the brunch Mm-hmm. Yeah and then one of my
00:31:32
Speaker
good friends here who's a drag queen. She has a Saturday, Sunday brunch every weekend with this rotating cast of girls and performers. And it's just, it's wild. I don't know how she does it, but it's just at this one chain restaurant that loves having, and she'll like in the middle of the day, walk outside, get on top of a car that's parked on the side, you know, do all the things. It's a great time. It's so much fun. I mean, they're, say that again.
00:32:01
Speaker
Oh, it's it's sold out every weekend. Yeah. It's a human zoo, baby. Human zoo with human zoo with liquor. That's what I like to call it. Hmm. It hit the masses with that. I think that's a valid. It hit the masses where you weren't seeing Robin Williams as Mrs. Doubtfire. That's drag. You you've seen Eddie Murphy as in the clumps. That's drag. So like it really did kind of hit.
00:32:29
Speaker
Oh, this is a performance. Tyler. I mean, it still is, but it is drag. It is drag. So I think like in drag brunch was. I'm pretty sure like correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure it started in SoCal. I want to say in the 2000s, that is where drag brunch. So it's even predates drag race at a time.
00:32:59
Speaker
To the multiverse of podcasts, if you listen to Delta Works podcast, she talks about like the birth of drag brunch being started out there in like the SoCal area. So I think drag is always going to be there. It's always taking different shapes. I think what's different in this time period is everything kind of gets lumped under drag now. Where whether it's little NAS X.
00:33:21
Speaker
insert random pop diva that wants to get to the gay audience, you know, it's always kind of like it's evolving now. We're seeing a lot of queer performers live in their true identity, which sometimes gets pushed underneath there. So I think the next thing is that I, what I'd like to see is that the pop stars aren't always heteronormative people, but they start becoming looking like the queer people I see in my day to day life. I think that is where everything is going. So the same access that
00:33:51
Speaker
heteronormative lifestyles have, I think is going to start looking more like the drag scene and the queer scene. So a little bit more like Kim Petrus, Sam Smith. Yeah. That's sort of our first kind of, you know, major movie bros for a gay romance. So like it's starting to happen. So I just imagine
00:34:13
Speaker
Things are going to get bigger and bigger. There's the Internet. It's never going away. That is the unifier of everything. So you ban all you want. But like, did you not see what these queens were doing? These queens and performers on Twitch during the pandemic, like take away the bars. Drag is still going to be as prevalent. It will just find a new route. They're already on cruise ships, so like, hey, it's happening. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:38
Speaker
That's true. I think Jackie Cox is on Atlantis this coming, or by the time we air this, it'll happen. But yeah, so yeah, they're on cruise ships and all that sort of stuff. I think what's another important thing with
00:34:57
Speaker
you know, understanding drag is that there are so many different types of drag.
Artistic Diversity and Audience Suitability in Drag
00:35:04
Speaker
And that's another thing you mentioned that kind of gets all lumped together. And I think that that's
00:35:09
Speaker
It is an art form and just like painting, just like music, just like acting. There are different styles and types and not everything. People are like, oh, all the stuff about kids and drag story hour and things like that. We've heard it all, but it's like just because there are child-friendly or kid-friendly events, just as there are kid-friendly
00:35:38
Speaker
paintings and music and other art forms, not all drag is going to be valid for consumption of minors. Like that's just, we're still queer. I think a part of our culture as queer people is kind of sex positive, which is not gonna be suitable for children. Like that's just the tea, right? So like, when things get lumped together, when different things
00:36:07
Speaker
I don't know if you've watched the most recent season of Canada's Drag Race with the girlfriend experience, but she talks about how a video of her performing and pretty much nothing got pulled from something that was very much just an adult situation that then got vilified by a politician.
00:36:32
Speaker
Okay, but that wasn't meant for, like, you're making this argument that it's not like she was performing that for children, right? She went to McDonald's. She walked into Chuck E. Cheese. She said DJ kicked out full vagina at the Chuck E. Cheese. She kicked Chuck E. the little rat off and said, baby, this is my time. These kids are gonna see a vulva today.
00:37:01
Speaker
That's it right there baby and 10 years from now you're going to see me on top. So yeah, I think I think what you said earlier of of you know everything kind of gets lumped together. I think that's important to understand that there are so many different types of drag. And so.
00:37:27
Speaker
I don't really know where I was going with this. I just wanted to make sure that that was driven home, that there are so many different types, because I think it's really important to say that we're back. Sorry about that, everybody. We had some technical difficulties. Technology is great. And don't remember what we were talking about, but we're going to go ahead and... I think you need to tell the truth and let them know that we were hacked by Christian nationalists that did not want this information getting out.
00:37:58
Speaker
And we will be doing a thorough investigation into who you are, and we will find you. We will find you. Everyone has a right to be heard.
00:38:12
Speaker
But enough about them. Let's get back to the real issue at play here. Bevan, I know you had some follow-up questions for Harriet. Yeah. So one of the things that I thought was interesting is Harriet, you mentioned like it was a three-hour process for you to get prepared just for this interview. And I was just asking like,
00:38:35
Speaker
Is drag your forever gig? Is this going to be the rest of your life? And then with some of just the work and the cost that goes into being the drag queen, I don't know. Is it worth it? Is this forever? It's actually funny now. We chatted a little bit about this earlier, and now I'm thinking about it
00:39:05
Speaker
The capitalist in me would love for this to go on and like how to figure out how to easily figure out how to make everything cost efficient and be able to save money in the bank. The other side of me also understands that that's not a promise. That's not a guarantee in this business. So for me, I know that I like performing and I like chatting with people, but I don't know if drag is always going to be that avenue.
00:39:35
Speaker
So yes and no, I'd love for this to be a forever way, like being part of the queer community and being part of the quilt of that, I think is lovely, but I don't know. I just think like tying myself to just this is a little bit of disservice to the many things that I can do. Right now this works for me. I love that.
00:39:57
Speaker
Well, so, I mean, one of the things that you mentioned earlier is that you're interested in hosting events, producing events for other drag queens and things like that in the community. Are there other things that you've kind of considered for maybe future projects or what's captured your fancy recently? Well, recently my co-host for Skinny Brunch at Hardware every Sunday at 4 p.m.
00:40:22
Speaker
we have been talking about putting together a show like what interests me and what I like to get back into having like a stable paycheck nine to five is that I want to do stupid things like we want to do a night of a thousand Godzilla's where someone comes in as Mothra or tech Godzilla of some sort and we're able to like what I think sometime is missing from the drag world because we're all trying to
00:40:48
Speaker
make it in some way and have like, you know, a livable wage is that we have to sacrifice our art. So I want to kind of get back to the place where we're not having to. No disrespect. And I mean this in whole earnestly, but like how many Knight of 1000 Lady Gaga's can we keep doing?
00:41:06
Speaker
before people get tired of that. And that's naturally so, I mean, the only people that have been able to make that work is Fast and Furious, but I don't know where else where you can have the same theme happen and people don't get tired. Yeah, you bring up a good point. And this is something that I, why I hate capitalism is that if we as a society didn't need money,
00:41:35
Speaker
Right? How many more artists? How much more art? How much more just
00:41:42
Speaker
things would exist because we're not solely focused on making sure that we have enough money to feed ourselves and house ourselves and we can less worrying about how you're getting the money and more just create, right? And that like literally, yes, that is something that I think we're missing just as a society in general. And I think it's probably
00:42:11
Speaker
because of the art form and I know it's more mainstream but drag is still niche being in the queer community you know it's kind of I think it's even heightened more because of that right we're already at a disadvantage typically when it comes to jobs and money and things like that as our our heteronormative counterparts so when but we're also the ones that want to do a lot of this art or we do the art because
00:42:39
Speaker
we don't give a fuck, right? So like, I feel like it's hyper kind of concentrated even more of that feeling of like wanting to, you know, balance the paycheck versus the art. But that,
00:42:59
Speaker
But one can't kind of live without the other in this curtain. Right. In this. Unfortunate. Correct. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because I mean, I guess. And now we have nine of a thousand Ariana Grande's. You know? So. Well, I can't be mad at that thing. I can't be mad at that because people got to make money. People need to survive. You need to be able to pay for your Cobra benefits or whatever. So like, you know, it's it's always a give and take with that. Give the people what they want.
00:43:28
Speaker
They want Godzilla. They want Godzilla yet. That's the thing. It's like, that's why creativity is so important because it's like, you don't know that you want a night of Godzilla until somebody presents it to you. And it takes a creative to say, here's this insane thing that I thought of. Here you go. You're welcome. So yeah, special shout out. Like I got really inspired by there's this performer here called Miss Woman the woman.
00:43:56
Speaker
and they competed at ICON for Pantheon season two and they did a number as Godzilla and they built these like tiny little cities at a cardboard and then like would destroy them by doing a split on top of them it was like the most iconic beautiful hilarious it was like everything I'd ever I was like I want this in a show
00:44:21
Speaker
Were you destroying fake cities by doing a split on top of them? Like it was just iconic. So I I wish if I had a dream for drag, I wanted to go more in that realm versus digestible for flyover states. And I mean that respectfully, but like they just don't have access to it. Yeah. So like watching someone do the splits.
00:44:46
Speaker
Jump into a cartwheel like they think that that is dragon. That's fine because that's all they've been able to experience in their spaces But there's way more to that Well, so I mean with that said like I truly believe that every art form every Industry every whatever has an opportunity to make the world a better place if it so chooses So like what how how does drag give back? Like how is drag gonna make the world a better place?
Exploring Gender Identity Through Drag
00:45:15
Speaker
Oh, God, I feel like this is a pageant. I think of the people that are people, that are peopling, people will people. How does drag make the world better? I think from my experience of drag, I think it is already making the world better. Sorry, the Texas jumped out of me.
00:45:41
Speaker
What I have learned is that drag has made me closer to the person I am. Weirdly enough dressing like this and putting on a show, it allows me to kind of reflect and view parts of my life that I never thought I would ever review. I never had to sit there and think about how my gender is presenting and how I want to present it.
00:46:08
Speaker
especially being black, especially growing up as a black male, like there was so many things already put on me that I didn't even was unconscious about. So seeing that drag has done that for people to reveal their true gender identity to themselves, not say reveal, confirm, because I think that from my understanding that that is something that they've always known and maybe have not been able to vocalize yet, but I think it is doing the work.
Personal Growth and Community Education in Drag
00:46:33
Speaker
If you're
00:46:34
Speaker
I feel like if you're in drag, you're viewing yourself. And sometimes you can go a little vain, plain drain, and then it could go on the routes of it. So I think it is doing the work already innately by us just thinking about what do we want to put into this role? I don't think you would do that as an accountant or as someone who's
00:47:00
Speaker
A salesperson, I don't think those are roles and jobs that you have where you're not having to review yourself and how you're presenting it to the world. I think another important part of that is also not only for the performers, but those that participate in the shows or
00:47:21
Speaker
you know, as a spectator, you know, one of the reasons I love going to drag shows, I love watching people perform. It brings me so much joy to see talented people being celebrated, seeing queer people being celebrated. That to me is just such a joy. And I know that Vinu and I have talked about this before, like in my journey of coming out
00:47:51
Speaker
I think, you know, when I first kind of came out as bisexual, I like did not, trans and drag queens scared me. I'm like, you know, like that, that's just the facts, right? Like I didn't, as I learned and became more of who I am and really kind of learned about, drag really kind of opened my eyes and helped me learn more about
00:48:16
Speaker
my own community. And so I think in ways it really does help educate the children. Children not actual children anyway. But I think as a spectator and supporter and kind of ally of drag queens and the art,
00:48:40
Speaker
It just, it really brings me, like that's, I do love, I do love a brunch. I do love a drag show. I do love, you know, I love what, you know, that's,
00:48:52
Speaker
When I'm feeling sad, I'm gonna watch a Trixie and Katya compilation of their YouTube videos. Like that's just, you know, that's my source of joy. And so I think drag queens can bring a lot of joy and a lot of warmth and stuff to people who even aren't actual performers, so. I love that. I love that as just this idea of an example of a mirror just saying like, hey, guess what?
00:49:21
Speaker
because we are allowing ourselves to be over the top and fun and expressive and creative and freaking physically like active athletes up here like look you can do whatever you want to like it's okay look at me i'm doing something big and brave and bold and you can too like i love that idea of drag is like a beautiful mirror for people that's gorgeous now the one thing i would love
00:49:51
Speaker
It's for that creativity. It's funny, like one person said this, like, we were having a conversation, me and another drag performer, they were like, I sometimes want to come in and just do sad songs because I'm sad, but somehow I have taken this role and I have to make you happy. Meanwhile, crumbling inside. So if you're watching and listening to this, please make them feel comfortable because most of the time I just want to do sad songs.
00:50:20
Speaker
I'm like, let's all just group cry. That's all group cry at brunch. I mean, I feel like that that's a that is a niche. I think a lot of people would resonate with that, to be honest. I mean, and especially just like with everything happening in our world right now, I mean, or even, you know,
00:50:46
Speaker
It can happen at night as well whenever we need it to happen. But I think you're right. Folks need an outlet. Catharsis is healing. And I think there probably is an opportunity to just be like, you know what? We're going to take it down a notch. We're going to acknowledge some of the bullshit that's happening in our world and hug each other.
00:51:05
Speaker
This is our hugging space. Get some power ballads going, just really emotional. That could be just as good. Let it go. Just let the whole crowd fucking cry. Can you imagine? I'd be there. I'd go. Let's just all, yeah, let's just the group cry. I'm here for it.
00:51:30
Speaker
Collective crying. Mascara is just... Oh baby, waterproof over here. Y'all can be having the little runny mascara. If you didn't do three hours for this to just start going because we want to cry. Unless that's part of the act, right? Yeah. Everything is valid.
00:51:50
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so I think we just created a new genre of drag. This is fantastic. You've heard it here first, folks. We're going to have some catharsis on the drag stage. Let's go. So, Harriet, when you have your Sad Girl Summer brunch, let me know. I will book two tickets and I will be there. It'll be in February, right after the 14th. Perfect timing. Beautiful. Perfect.
00:52:18
Speaker
I like those. Well, so this is usually where I ask my what do you see for the future question. I feel like we have kind of covered that extensively, but I do want to ask Harriet
00:52:31
Speaker
So you are a full-time drag queen. You're out here living a lot of people's dreams. You have various ideas for how you might transition for yourself and really own your personal career. But let's take it like outside of that. What I really wanted, like my big thing is I like to world build.
00:52:56
Speaker
And as somebody who believes in Black liberation and is all for the Black people, what is the world that you want to live in? What is the dream that you would like to see come to fruition? Ooh. I think the most immediate thing
00:53:16
Speaker
My dream world is that every citizen, I'll start with America because I can't really feel like I can get into otherwise politics. Everybody has to have a registered therapist that is funded by the government. I would love to see the school to prison pipeline demolished. I would love to see people have full autonomy of their own bodies of whatever they want to do with it. If it's from
00:53:44
Speaker
gender confirmation to even a nose job. I think if that's mentally going to help you get to the space you need to be, do it. And I would like to see a world where we actually had community. And I think we had it at one point, but it has just gone away.
00:54:03
Speaker
particularly for the queer community, the HIV and AIDS, demolished the community. There is so much history that was just lost from the 80s and 90s that we will never recover. And like sometimes I have to remind myself is that, oh, we are now part of that, like that this is now like the tapestries kind of getting added to now. So like, I just want there to be community and healing.
00:54:30
Speaker
to happen. And to do the work. Like I really would like people to do the work. It's hard work. It's not easy. It's hard. Like Nishina said, it's called blowjob for a reason because it's a job. You have to be willing to hang over here, people. Some people are not fit for that job, let me tell you.
00:55:01
Speaker
The biggest plot twist. They're like, you know your body. They don't. They don't, because they're disconnected with their body, because they're not doing the work. Because they're not doing the work. See, it all comes back around.
Envisioning Societal Change Through Drag
00:55:15
Speaker
It all comes back around. What's that song? That was just some song lyric. I'm not going to get into that. I think it's Throw Coat by Kim Patrice. Is that the song you were referencing?
00:55:29
Speaker
No, that comes back around or goes back around. I don't know. I feel like that is a beautiful place to send us out. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It is about community at every level in every community. We're just
00:55:47
Speaker
we have to remember that we are all connected as human beings. And hopefully, you know, the age of Aquarius is redawning people. So we have an opportunity to make some big changes. Just going to throw some Zodiac woo woo at you. But that being said. Ooh, missed it. Ooh, dodge, dodge. Ooh, that was close. Harriet, where can people find you? Where should they be looking for you? All right.
00:56:15
Speaker
You can always find me on Instagram at Harriet underscore Tugsman. I think that's my TikTok too, but as I said earlier in this podcast, I'm getting back into that. I'm figuring it out. If you're ever in New York area, you can always find me at my resident bar, rock bar and hardware bar, which are based in Manhattan. So definitely go to my Instagram. You can always find me there at this. I am a traveling queen and if you have a booking, I'll show up.
00:56:40
Speaker
I've done a diaper party. I rarely say no. I rarely say no. I love it. I'm sure Crystal's always looking for queens for that Saturday, Sunday brunch, so. Baby, I'll get on that train down to DC. It's not a bad ride. It really isn't. I like trains. I really like trains. I sound like very Joe Biden right now. I love trains. Going on them. Sitting on them.
00:57:08
Speaker
I love trains. Japan has a right with trains. If you ever sign this as a tangent, but go on YouTube and watch their first class train rides. They have a lot of things figured out. That's a whole other podcast episode. Their vending machines have AI in it. I don't know. It's crazy. I want to go over there.
00:57:32
Speaker
They just build what you want as you push the button. Like it's just, it's magic. Full port tonkatsu ready for you. Now I'm hungry. Okay. This is great. Well, thank you for being, I'm not even, I'm Mike, you end the thing for us, please. I was like, I thought you weren't hosting today, but I guess you are. Maybe later.
00:57:56
Speaker
No, but, uh, you know, thank you. Thank you again for being here. Um, Harriet, it's been a pleasure talking with to you, even with our right wing extremists, uh, hacking our episode. We will find you, we will take care of you. Don't you worry. Yeah. And, um, yeah, until next time, thank you for listening. Bye.
00:58:37
Speaker
If you've enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe. That's the easiest way to support our show. We hope you took away a new nugget of information or perspective today, and we're grateful you took the time to listen to us. Until next time, bye. Bye.