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How Financial Therapy Can Reshape Your Money Mindset with Haylie Castillo, MSW, LSWAIC, CFT-I (TM)
65 Plays7 months ago
SUMMARY
Welcome to another episode of Dirty Money with Bevin and Mike. Join our hosts today as they discuss financial therapy with their guest, Haylie Castillo. As a financial therapist, Haylie Castillo shares the transformative potential of this emerging profession, which seeks to bridge the gap between personal finance and mental/emotional well-being.
With expertise honed through a journey of personal discovery and academic pursuit, Haylie shares insights into the intersectionality of finance, trauma, and social justice. Tune in as they explore the evolution of financial therapy, its core principles, and its role in reshaping conversations around money and mental health.
TOPICS
[1:30] Introduction to Haylie and Financial Therapy
[8:15] What to Expect in a Financial Therapy Session
[14:04] Ideal Clientele and Pillars of Financial Therapy
[26:15] Dreaming of a Different World
[32:36] Manufactured Scarcity
[45:40] Intersectionality of Sex Work, Personal Finance, and Therapy
[50:45] The Road to Becoming a Financial Therapist
[1:08:25] Wrap-Up
RESOURCES & LINKS
Connect with Haylie Castillo
Instagram: @c_financial_therapy
Website: https://www.castillofinancialtherapy.com/
Other Resources Mentioned:
- The Trauma of Money
- Adrienne Maree Brown
- The Book — Edgar Villanueva
- Sonya Renee Taylor
- Tricia Hersey
CONTACT INFO
Bevin Morgan:
Instagram: @bevinmorgan & @temple_eanna
Website: www.templeeanna.com & BevinMorgan.com
Mike Poulin:
Instagram: @mjpou56
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Episode Start
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Dirty Money with Bevin. And Mike. A space to talk about financial topics for folks who don't fit into traditional financial spaces. We believe money is a tool for everyone. Our mission is to provide a literal microphone and platform for queer, BIPOC, polyamorous, and sex-positive individuals. No topic is off the table here.
00:00:31
Speaker
That being said, one tiny little housekeeping note. For those listening who may have others with sensitive ears, the listener discretion is advised because we do not censor ourselves. That's right. You've been warned, but enough from us. Let's get this episode started.
Meet Hailey, Financial Therapist
00:00:52
Speaker
Welcome back to Dirty Money with Bevin and Mike. I am Bevin and this is Mike. Hey. Hi.
00:01:00
Speaker
And today with us, we have Hailey, and we're super excited because Mike and I are both big old financial nerds, as you know. And Hailey, why don't you tell us what you do?
What is Financial Therapy?
00:01:11
Speaker
Sure. I am a financial therapist. That's so cool.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yes. So Mike and I are both like, we love financial therapy. We think it's amazing, but here's the thing. I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who've never heard the phrase financial therapy. So will you tell us what that means? So financial therapy is a profession that is being created
00:01:42
Speaker
to basically bridge the gap between the worlds of personal finance, which historically has not really delved into the area of psychology or emotions around money, pretty much at all. And then the world of mental health, emotional health, wellbeing, and as a licensed mental health provider, I can tell you that typically,
00:02:11
Speaker
the mental health psychotherapy world usually has not delved too much into the world of finance. And so financial therapy is this new world that is attempting to bridge the gap between those two worlds. I love that. Yeah. We often joke as financial coaches
00:02:35
Speaker
that the board of therapists are gonna come after us because it feels like, because money has so much emotion tied to it. Regardless of who you are or what you do, how you were brought up, how you were raised, how you navigate through your life, it all is affected and your money is part of that because unfortunately, the society we live in
00:03:03
Speaker
everything costs money. So it's all tied. And yeah, it's like, I feel like a lot of times therapists can't necessarily like, they can give their clients tools to think about money, but they can't actually then hold them necessarily accountable with like the coaching side of things. And then you have the he who shall not be named
00:03:28
Speaker
money guru. I will not say that name on this podcast. Their tactics about helping people get out of debt and things like that are rooted in shame and guilt and just feeding into that. And so yeah, financial therapy is just an incredible
00:03:52
Speaker
world that is just starting to evolve. And it's really, really exciting.
Hailey's Journey and Approach
00:03:57
Speaker
And that's why I wanted to have you on here. Thank you. Yes, it is. It's very exciting to be in a space that is literally being created. There's pros and cons to that, right?
00:04:13
Speaker
I see myself as, I've always been a little bit of a disruptor, even though I, like without even trying to, even just as like a little person, just I would always be the person to, you know, the little girl that would ask the next logical question in my mind, right? And then the whole room of adults would just kind of like, oh, like hands over their mouths. No, we don't talk about that.
00:04:41
Speaker
And so I have, you know, come to own that as one of my gifts in this life. And so creating new spaces, asking hard questions, sitting with kind of the unknown is something that I'm here for. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's, it's super excited. And as you mentioned, very needed, very, very needed.
00:05:10
Speaker
Well, and so you mentioned that you are coming to this work from a professional therapy standpoint, right? So you were already a psychologist and now you're moving into this work, or can you tell us a little bit about how that journey has evolved? Yes. So my journey is actually pretty unique, even, so I'm, even within the scope of financial therapists that exist in that I,
00:05:38
Speaker
I'll give you kind of a quick overview. I was on my own personal finance journey. And then also, I have a lot of childhood trauma as well. And so I was on my mental health trauma healing journey. And so I had these kind of parallel paths that I was going down. At the same time, I was very involved with social justice, a group of folks that were very intentionally
00:06:08
Speaker
community-based, putting good into the world. And I noticed kind of the separation between the three worlds, where my personal finance people that I was listening to were very, like you said, shame-based, kind of motivate, using the motivational tactics of like guilt and shame very much. The mental health journey was just so healing and so expanding, right? And then the social justice world was
00:06:38
Speaker
just very, we don't talk about money, money is evil. It's kind of this vow of martyrdom and we must suffer in order to put good into the world. And I just kind of stumbled upon financial therapy as this way to kind of marry all three worlds and then kind of reverse engineered it from there of like, that's what I meant to do.
00:07:07
Speaker
And so I went back to grad school to become a licensed therapist in order to become specifically a financial therapist.
Financial Therapy vs. Coaching
00:07:17
Speaker
That's really cool. I love that the universe kind of gave you all of these clues that helped you find a direction that has worked for you. And for somebody who would consider working with a financial therapist as opposed to a wealth manager or a financial advisor or even a financial coach, what
00:07:37
Speaker
What types of things can they expect to receive in like a session with you and kind of what like sets financial therapy apart from all of those other things? Sure. So the way that I approach financial therapy is the same way that, let me start over. So the way that I approach financial therapy is I see it as a specialization within the field of psychotherapy.
00:08:07
Speaker
So very much like a, like a sex therapist who focuses on your relationship to sex, your body, others, you know, how to navigate that area of life or like an eating disorder therapist and your relationship to again, your body, food, that sort of thing. I think of financial therapy and I approach it this way in my work as that specialized
00:08:36
Speaker
way that specialization in we're going to focus on the way that you relate to money, your sense of success, your sense of self worth, how that shows up in your relationships, and especially your relationship with yourself. And so that's my approach to financial therapy. So if say a client is looking to work with me, we're going to explore all of those themes around money, what
00:09:05
Speaker
emotions come up most of the time. My specialty is kind of in shame, deep seated, deep seated shame, which a lot of folks have around money and financial trauma as well. But yeah, rebuilding your sense of self trust around money, unpacking your narratives that you have picked up along the way that you are projecting onto.
00:09:34
Speaker
the way that you interact with your money.
Triage and Emotional Healing
00:09:37
Speaker
So it's very much more the emotional and mindset mental side of the money relationship rather than what like a money coach would do or a financial planner would do is more the strategy and like let's make a plan and let's enact the plan and put those tools in place.
00:10:01
Speaker
So you would even say that, do you often, because if you have clients that are coming to you, I'm sure you have had this happen where they're just in survival mode, right? Where they just either A, don't make enough money. They just feel that they feel like they're up against a wall. Do you do any sort of like,
00:10:23
Speaker
in order for them to even like talk about how they're feeling, do you do at least some sort of like, I call it triage budgeting, right? Like, hey, let's just figure out, let's just maybe not like, let's not plan for like the next five years, but like let's talk about right now and let's see because I have found in my, you know, I've been a personal financial coach now for almost five years and sometimes
00:10:51
Speaker
People come to me and they're just so anxious and so like they don't even they can't even think because they just don't know what's happening and once you see numbers and Once you have like at least some sort of like path Even if it's like I'm not even sure how long this path is gonna go but there's just so something so comforting I have found and
00:11:13
Speaker
with knowing your numbers is like half the battle, right? Knowing that we have a deficit now of $400 a month. Okay, great, I didn't know that before. Now I can, you know, let me door dash or let me, you know, rover or like just getting to that, like, I feel like I'm not sure if you do this, but I could see that being very helpful in then being able to create that mental space to then talk about what they're feeling.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yes, and I'm so glad you did bring that, Michael, because yes, actual one on one financial therapy is not the answer. That's not for someone who is in literal survival mode. You're not going to have the capacity to, you know, to delve into all of the deeper kind of things to get to the root of the problem if you're if yeah, if you're in survival mode. So yes,
00:12:09
Speaker
Absolutely. The triaging, I love that word, yes, of being able, and I agree most of the time, financial anxiety comes from the fact that you just haven't looked at the landscape. And so the anxiety exists because there's this huge unknown.
00:12:37
Speaker
Yes. And a lot of times it's just having a compassionate person to sit there and kind of hold your hand and hold space for you while you're looking at the numbers and kind of, yeah, let's just take a look and see where things are at. And then we can problem solve from there. Yes. Interesting. Yeah. So you mentioned that
00:13:06
Speaker
if you're in actual survival mode, like true lack and one of these bills is not getting paid this month, you're probably not in the head space to go into financial therapy. So with that said, what types of clients do you typically see? Like what types of challenges are you usually working through? Yes, great question. So I, first and foremost, yes,
00:13:35
Speaker
I see people who are able to invest the, all of the resources, not just money, but time and energy as well. And it's not a personal fault of yours. If you don't have that capacity right now in your life, that's not, again, remove the shame from that. And I'll just say that. But, but yes,
00:14:01
Speaker
So I work with folks that, yeah, number one, make a decent amount of money or are able to invest, kind of work things around and make the intentional choice to invest in this relationship in their lives, with their relationship with money, right? Also, my favorite clients tend to be, or the clients that are most attracted to me, I'll say it that way, tend to be folks who do have a lot of shame
00:14:31
Speaker
tend to be from either shame-based backgrounds or have not been able to live true to themselves in some capacity, whether they are LGBTQ plus, right? Or they are a person of color or they, they have not been able to live full fully true to themselves for some reason. And they have internalized that shame. They've done some personal healing work along the way.
00:15:00
Speaker
to start healing some of that trauma, but they're still noticing that there's this really complicated relationship with their finances. And so it tends to be one of the last things on their kind of personal healing journey.
Systemic and Trauma-Informed Approaches
00:15:17
Speaker
And then, yeah, and then they find me and we're able to start unpacking that and healing and shifting that relationship. And I say it, I help people.
00:15:28
Speaker
with money, shame, relearn how to trust themselves with money. Well, so I know that you have gone through the trauma of money coursework, which I am currently in the process of doing and Mike will be doing soon. So everybody in this room right now is like trauma of money is the best. For anybody who doesn't know that is trauma of money is a course, it is a community,
00:15:58
Speaker
and a framework around how to kind of address some of the money wounds that a lot of us are walking around with. And the reason that I bring it up is because I know one of the things that is so foundational to that coursework is this idea of trusting yourself with money. So I would love to just know from you, Haley, what are some of the other, I guess, like pillars of your work, like
00:16:22
Speaker
what else should people be wanting to walk away with when they speak with a financial therapist or speak with somebody like you? Sure. So I am, not only am I a financial therapist, I come to it from a specific philosophical standpoint or approach. So I take a systemic approach and a trauma informed approach and I'll kind of
00:16:49
Speaker
describe what that means. So because not all therapists work within these approaches, there's kind of a large spectrum of types of therapy out there. So a systemic approach means simply that you take into account the context in which the person exists.
00:17:16
Speaker
So literally just talking about your intersectional identities, the way you grew up when it comes to money, we're talking about your socioeconomic class, the neighborhood that you grew up in, the schools that you went to, whether or not you had access to spending money, you know, what did your communities, what did your family and your community
00:17:44
Speaker
believe about money and what did you observe in the way that they related to money and what did you pick up from that? Your race, your ethnicity, all of those things. So that's a systemic approach. And without reducing you to just the, you're just the product of your environment as well, because that's reductionist. But yeah, just looking at the individual within the larger context.
00:18:13
Speaker
in which they exist. The second, the second one that I very much am, how do I say this? Hold on, back up. Okay. So the second, the second approach that I take that is very important to me is that I'm trauma informed. And believe it or not, not all therapists out there are trauma informed. And basically,
00:18:43
Speaker
What that means, a simple way to say it is that a reactionary stance will ask the question, what's wrong with you? A trauma-informed approach asks rather, what happened to you? It's a much more compassionate approach. And I personally take it a little bit further in that I truly believe that we all have the ability within our own selves
00:19:13
Speaker
to heal ourselves and we just need the environment and the relationships and the safety in order to access that ability to heal and to have a guide or a community or a healer or a therapist be able to help facilitate that. I'm not the professional and the expert coming in to fix your brain.
00:19:43
Speaker
I'm, you're the expert on your life, and I'm the professional that has the training and some tools to be able to help you access your own ability to self heal, if that makes sense. Which is one of the reasons why I'm such a fan of the trauma of money program, because that is their approach, 100%. Yeah, I know with my own personal journey with therapy,
00:20:13
Speaker
My therapist is always like, I'm just giving you tools for your toolbox. Yep. And I literally say the same thing. That's fine. So yeah, my, my therapist, um, he is actually, his main kind of like job is actually, he works at an addiction clinic. So very trauma informed, very. Yeah. So he's, he's a, he's a gem. Yeah.
00:20:42
Speaker
No, my life coach, life coaching certification was based in motivational interviewing, which is essentially like a drug prevention, or I guess like a drug addiction treatment style of therapy. And it's very much like, I am providing you with a platform. Let us heal together. Like you, you guide me through this
Challenging Capitalist Norms
00:21:01
Speaker
process. So I mean, the basis of our podcast. Exactly. Like, so tell me more what I feel like I'm hearing you say.
00:21:12
Speaker
Well, that is all very cool. And I'm very excited for your work. I'm glad that you exist. And I'm glad that the people know that this exists now, because I think a lot more folks need this than even realize for this conversation. That's dope. And if I can say one other thing, as I it's it flies in the face, again, back to the kind of the disruptor persona, it flies in the face of
00:21:38
Speaker
the dominant economic culture that we exist within, especially with personal finance, right? That's literally all that you hear is, you're doing this wrong, you need to be better, it's your fault.
00:21:55
Speaker
Well, it's all rooted in capitalism. Correct. Being a financial therapist is literally being anti-capitalism. Correct. Because you are teaching people how to be in control. Capitalism doesn't want us to be in control. Because if you're not in control, you're going to spend more money. You're going to make them more profit. That is literally the game. And so that is what draws me so much to this
00:22:23
Speaker
profession, and I said this before we started recording. At our last job that Bevin and I worked at, our CEO often joked that she wasn't worried about FINRA coming for us as an organization. She was more worried about the board of therapists because we literally, we had boxes of tissues in the office because when we sat down to talk with them, I mean, we also had bottles of wine.
00:22:52
Speaker
So because you got to get that, you got to get that flowing. If the anxiety is there, let's just, you know, yeah. But, you know, it because there is so much emotion that is tied to money and it's something that we all need that we use daily. But then there's this dichotomy that we don't talk about it. And like it's wild. It's just wild because and I've even done this. I've seen a few studies. I've done it on my social media before.
00:23:23
Speaker
It's like 70 to 80% of people polled would rather tell a stranger their favorite sex position than how much is in their bank account at that very moment in time. And I'm like, money should not be more intimate than sex. I'm sorry. Like, I just don't understand.
00:23:45
Speaker
And so that has been my kind of mission as a personal financial coach to just, let's just talk about money. Let's make it something that is not shameful. That is not like you, like, you know, when I'm talking to clients and they're like, well, I do really well. Like when I'm not around my friends or like.
00:24:05
Speaker
I know my goals and I'm like, you have to be the one to start the conversation. And it doesn't have to be, oh, I can't do this because I don't have the money. You can reframe it to say, hey, I really just want to spend time with you. Is there something that we can do this week that fits?
00:24:24
Speaker
You know, I love that idea of like going out, but like, Hey, I have the steak that I need to cook. Why don't you come over? And like, you can reframe your conversations to still, cause it's like, think about why you're spending time or why you want to spend time. It's not to spend money. It's to spend time with your, with your friends or family. And, but our society doesn't want us to
Reimagining Society and Economy
00:24:48
Speaker
think that way. So, right. Because it will literally crumble if we all awaken.
00:24:54
Speaker
to the agency that we have, which I am here for. But with that being said, I think it is an important conversation to have, to like talk about the realities of that, right? Because I feel like especially in circles like this, you know, in the echo chamber that I live within, there are a lot of folks who are just like, oh, you know, the way the society is set up and capitalism, everything is bad. But what you just said, Hailey, like if every single person in this country
00:25:22
Speaker
realized tomorrow that they could grow four different foods in their apartment and they could invite their friends over for wine and just do all of these things that are kind of anathema to the capitalistic system of spending more money to have a good time, that literally would completely change the foundation of our nation. So what do we think
00:25:49
Speaker
Well, like what's the vision that we're creating for this world that we live in? So I'm also so here for this conversation as well because not only do I enjoy like the micro level aspect of like the one-on-one individual work that I do. I love, I'm a Pisces and a Cancer Rising. And so I'm like this, it's an ocean over here.
00:26:20
Speaker
March 17th, actually, just coming. Happy Mother's birthday, St. Patty's baby. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Keep that. Sorry. Yeah, so it's my season even. Yeah, yeah. So I'm here, yeah, for the big picture part of it. And I have found such guidance and mentorship from afar from listening to Black queer women.
00:26:51
Speaker
folks like Adrienne Marie Brown and Emergent Strategy, she is phenomenal around reimagining. It's our gift and our job to reimagine what this society and world could look like. That is also one of the...not to go too much on a rabbit trail, but that's one of the things...I'm...I love my soapbox now.
00:27:21
Speaker
That's one of the things that capitalism actually takes away from us. It literally steals our imaginations from us. And I actually got that from an indigenous writer named Edgar Villanueva and his organization, Decolonizing Wealth. But back to the other women that I've been learning from, Sonya Renee Taylor, Adrienne Marie Brown, Mia Birdsong,
00:27:51
Speaker
Trisha Hersey, just these folks who are doing the labor of facilitating this and expanding our imaginations around what does it look like to have healthy relationships with ourselves first and then with each other in community and with the earth so that it's sustainable.
00:28:20
Speaker
That's the work. I mean, that's the vision. It hasn't been created yet, but there is an awakening happening and we get to be part of it. But to bring it back down to the individual, the micro level, folks don't have that capacity if they're in survival mode. When they literally, it's not scarcity mindset, it's literal scarcity.
00:28:49
Speaker
Right? Because capitalism is a system founded upon manufactured scarcity. Yeah, right. That's it. You've said so many things that I just on a deep core level that I just I agree with so much. I will say that, you know, the whole
00:29:16
Speaker
Capitalism, one of my favorite arguments is when, because here on this podcast, we believe sex work is work. Yes.
00:29:26
Speaker
but there's so much stigma around it and people are like, oh, why don't you get a real job? And I'm like, wait a minute. You are also selling your body just in a different way. You're selling it to the office that you aren't using your body in the way that you want to use it during the day. You're just slightly projecting on them because you think that they're having more fun probably. Maybe, maybe, you know, that may not be the case for everybody, but
00:29:53
Speaker
I always love to bring that conversation back around on the person when someone says that because it's like, no, we're all selling our bodies. We're in capitalism. It's the same thing that when I tell, so I'm a veteran, I have my VA disability, and I have a lot of friends that served with me who either felt like they didn't deserve to go and do the
00:30:17
Speaker
because they're like, oh, I didn't serve in combat. And I didn't go on a deployment. So I don't deserve to get this disability. I'm like, no, you sold your body to the government for however many years. That is a benefit because you will never get that time back. You will never get that cartilage back in your knees. There are just things that we are put through regardless of what we do in the military. That is why those benefits are there.
00:30:45
Speaker
It's you, you sold your body to the government. And so I often, it's the same concept where it's like, no, you need to apply for that. You earned that. You did the thing. So once again, the shame, it comes back. Well, I didn't do it. No, you did. I think that's such a good point though, Mike. And it goes beyond the military, right? It's like every single one of us shows up on this planet.
00:31:14
Speaker
by accident, none of us asked to be here. Literally, I did not ask to be here. None of us asked for it, but now we're here. And we are put into this system where we're told, okay, if you're lucky, somebody will take care of you for a certain amount of time. Your whole job is to learn again, if you're lucky. But then after a certain point, you got to figure this shit out of your own. So we all have to exchange
00:31:44
Speaker
our time and our bodies in some way in order to just live, like just to just have the things that literally keep us alive. And so Haley, like I love what you said about this idea of manufactured scarcity. And I really want to walk down that path because that's not something that I feel like gets talked about a lot. And it's just, it's such a like unique turn of phrase.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yes, so I actually did learn that phrase from trauma of money, credit where credit's due, but trauma of money gave me language for a lot of the things that I was circling around already, if you know what I mean, and that is how capitalism was formed.
00:32:38
Speaker
It was created with this idea. It was very, it's, it's, it's, it, I mean, it's in bed. It has to rely on exploitative. It has to rely on exploitation, colonization, white supremacy, all of patriarchy, all of the toxic systems, and they're baked in to it. So.
00:33:08
Speaker
One of the things that it does rely on is this manufactured scarcity, which means that, I mean, to kind of explain it, there's actual abundance on the earth, if you think about it. There is enough for all life that currently exists. There's enough for everyone to survive and thrive.
00:33:38
Speaker
And by everyone, I'm thinking of us as nature even, right? Right. I think that's an important, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it's something that there's an interesting kind of dichotomy to that too, right? Because if you think about nature,
00:33:58
Speaker
We often sometimes see violence in nature. And, you know, it's like, oh, why would, you know, a mother bird, like, kill some of its, you know,
00:34:10
Speaker
It's that instinct of like, I don't know if I can take care of all of these mouths, right? So there is abundance, but there's also nature also has checks and balances. And I feel like as humans, when we add the emotion, sometimes I feel like we, also because of capitalism, I feel like we kind of play with that kind of like equilibrium of like, because there's emotion to our species,
00:34:41
Speaker
that sometimes we forget that nature is beautiful, but you can't have beauty encompasses all of the emotions. And I think that's important sometimes to keep that frame of mind because yes, there is abundance, but also it's like nature's abundance has its checks and balances too. Not our manufactured ones,
00:35:10
Speaker
Right. But it's an important just side note too because I think that oftentimes sometimes people will be like, you know, well, if there's it goes back to the whole scarcity where it's like, well, if there's, you know, this many people, like, how are we going to, you know, how am I going to get this piece of pie type of thing? So.
00:35:32
Speaker
Right. There's room for the complexity of it. And there's the whole spectrum. You don't get the top notes of the, you know, the cotton candy and the beauty and the really without the dark, heavy stuff as well.
Concept of Money and Capitalism
00:35:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I do want to keep talking about this a little bit because it
00:35:55
Speaker
It buds up next to something that I've personally been struggling with, which is just this idea that money doesn't exist. It's not real. It's, you know, just conceptual. And, um, you know, it's like if a zombie apocalypse happens tomorrow and Jeff Bezos is in his Manhattan apartment, he's only going to survive as long as the food is in his apartment, right? Like those billions and billions of dollars that he has ceased to exist. They don't matter.
00:36:23
Speaker
And it's like, yeah, he's, he might survive longer than somebody else. He's like the Bill Murray in the, you know, the zombie movie. Like he's got the big house and like there, maybe there's more food in the basement than other people. But at the same time, it's like it really levels the playing field. Right. So it's like once, once the internet goes down, money ceases to exist. We all have to like find seeds and guns. I don't know. But with that being said, like.
00:36:51
Speaker
What does it mean for somebody who is trying to navigate this capitalist system? If they're like me and they're existing with this secondary mindset, this is all a fake game that was made up by somebody long before I got here. How does it mean? Asking for a friend. Yeah. You're the friend.
00:37:20
Speaker
You are absolutely correct. I hold that opinion as well. Money's not real. It's this, it's this construct that we've all agreed to use, right? Very similar to time, linear time. Time is a construct as well that we have made up to try and we will agreed
00:37:46
Speaker
collectively that we're going to use this tool in order to order our lives some way, right? Money and time are very similar in that aspect. They're also really similar in the sense that we use, we can spend time, we can spend money, we can, we even use, you know, the same kind of words around it of like trying to buy back time or save time and yeah.
00:38:14
Speaker
within that understanding of yes, absolutely. This is completely made up. It is a construct, right? And it has its limitations because of that. That is what we have decided collectively to agree upon for now, right? And if you can start seeing money and time as these constructs that we
00:38:44
Speaker
have placed upon this energy, this flow of energy, and you can start treating it that way, that can open up a lot more freedom to start using money and thinking of it as a energetic resource so that you can exchange value. But then you start getting into the concepts of reciprocity, which again, in the dominant economic culture right now,
00:39:13
Speaker
there's not a lot of reciprocity that is happening that in turn creates this feeling of lack of safety within our bodies and minds, which is over decades of living under this system creates what in the psychotherapy world is known as complex trauma.
00:39:38
Speaker
Can you like break that down for us? Because it's like, I feel like I heard the words, I'm following you, but I need like an example. Cause this is, this is going deep and I want to make sure that we're all catching this. Let me, let me think of an example. I, while you're thinking, I also have this value, this feeling of money's made up and you know, the society, but the thing that I like, the, the, the,
00:40:06
Speaker
The vantage point that I try to utilize and help my clients understand is that yes, we understand that this thing is here. I don't like using the term necessary evil, but that's the closest thing I can think of. So it's like, how do you.
00:40:26
Speaker
what, let's look at what's important to you, not the system. All right. Let's, a lot of times, uh, when clients would come to me, I'm the first person that actually wants to know what's important to them. Like when I'm like, okay, so what are your goals? And they started saying, well, you know, I want to get married. I want to have a house. I want to have kids. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I don't want to hear that, that answer. I was like, how do you spend your time? What's important to you?
00:40:56
Speaker
What are things that you want out of life? Because then, if we have those pillars, we can then figure out, okay, this is what I want.
00:41:07
Speaker
this is the system I have to be in. How do I play that game to get what I want out of the system that's here? And half of the battle is understanding the system. I just recently made a post on my social media explaining the difference between your credit card statement date and your due date, because those are two different things. And a lot of times people are like,
00:41:37
Speaker
You know, I pay my credit cards off every month, but my credit score isn't increasing. What's the problem? Like, well, you know, outside of derogatory, you know, history payments and that sort of stuff that that all checks out. The next place to look is what's being reported when you get your statement. If you have a thousand dollar credit card and you're running it up, the statement gets cut.
00:41:59
Speaker
you have zero availability that's being reported to the credit bureaus. And that concept is just not talked about. So helping people understand the game
00:42:13
Speaker
can help them if they know what they want out of it.
00:42:33
Speaker
how asinine this entire system is. And this is the thing, like this is where I get angry. So you're saying you're a Pisces with the cancerizing. Well, I have an Aquarius moon who's like, wow, like the rebellious nature in me. It's just like, I hate it all. We got to start over. But that being said, you're absolutely right. It's like, if you understand those nuances, even if they burn your butt, if you can like turn it back on them, it does make a big difference. Right.
00:43:04
Speaker
Yeah, well, not to get you heated. Yeah, I know.
Generational Trauma and Trust
00:43:08
Speaker
Well, and so I know that we were we were trying to come up with an example for what you were talking about earlier, Haley. And for me, so when you when you were talking about that, just the idea of like the reciprocity not happening for folks, literally what I thought was just, you know, black people, it's like, from the first day that we stepped foot in this country, as a people, we have given a lot.
00:43:34
Speaker
with very little returns. And to your point, it can feel hard for me as a black person today to feel comfortable saying, well, I'm going to give you 40 hours of my time and expect to get something of value in return. Based on history and logic, why would I take that deal?
00:44:01
Speaker
It's a no-brainer that I'd be like, F the system. I'm just going to do whatever I come up with on my own. Of course. And also generational trauma is real as well. There are studies that have recently been done to show that trauma does actually get passed down in our DNA. So your ancestors trauma still lives in your body.
00:44:30
Speaker
So of course you're not going to trust the system. And again, the personal finance gurus that's completely bypass, you know, to say, Oh, well you just need to get your money shit in order. It's all on you and put the systems issues upon the individual person is just another trauma within itself. Right.
00:44:59
Speaker
And it's just a huge bypass to what is actually going on. Another thing that I really love, and I'm just bringing it up because I want to talk to y'all about this because I love talking about and thinking about the intersection between like sex work and finances and therapy. And I talk a lot about consent.
00:45:28
Speaker
a lot about consent. And the system that exists right now is so unconsensual. The fact that we have to get a job, go like you guys have said, go give our bodies and our minds and our souls to these jobs or whatever it is. Did anyone ask you for your consent to that? No.
00:45:59
Speaker
It is such, and so when I start with any client that I start with, I have an entire conversation around the fact that this relationship between me and you is a consent-based relationship. You communicate what you need so that I can respond to that and vice versa because finances
00:46:27
Speaker
the whole world around personal finance has been complete. There's a complete lack of consent around that. And then also with our, with talking about personal healing oftentimes as well and trauma that there's a whole, yeah. Anyways, I'm losing my train of thought, but yeah. That I love that concept.
Consent and Client-Centered Therapy
00:46:53
Speaker
I have never thought of it that way. And now I'm like,
00:46:58
Speaker
Ooh. Yeah, it's funny because the way that I speak to my clients is I feel like in a similar vein, I've just never explicitly said, you know, it's consensual. But it was very much like, you know, I
00:47:18
Speaker
I can only help you with what you tell me about. I'm not a mind reader. So I'm going to focus on the things that you tell me, not the things that I think you need to do or the things that I think are important. Because I often joke, I'm like, I don't actually care what's important to you. I just want to know so that I can help you work on those things.
00:47:42
Speaker
It's like you're taking your priority list, but I need your priority list so I can. Exactly. And I don't want to impose what's important to me. Like, yes, there are pillars of financial health, but we need to make sure that they align how we get to those pillars align with what's important to you. And that is my focus. And that in a way is consent based because
00:48:08
Speaker
they're the things that they want to accomplish. Right. And I think a lot of times like the old school kind of personal financial advisors are coming at it from this asumptive, not asking for consent of, Oh, you just want the quote unquote American dream. Everybody wants that. Right. And it's the same as hopefully this isn't inappropriate. It's the same as just like somebody just coming up and being like, Oh,
00:48:38
Speaker
You like it this way. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to stick my dick in you and pound you this way because everybody likes it that way. Right. It's the same thing. Yeah. Where was the conversation? And so that oftentimes just, we take the first few sessions together to just establish the safety within a consent based relationship around your finances because
00:49:08
Speaker
Where else in our society do you get that? A lot of times people love hearing that, but there has been no practice around that either. There's been no lived experience. Your body doesn't know that I'm a safe person. And so I have to earn your trust. And so we'll just spend the first few sessions establishing a sense of safety.
00:49:35
Speaker
within the boundaries of consent. That's so good. That's so good. Yes, yes, yes. So with your consent, I will be taking that concept into my work because I love that so much. I love the idea of being like a consent based trauma informed financial coach. Because all of those things are so crucial. Like I feel like you can't. Yes, it's so important. Yes. Come on, why not do them?
00:50:06
Speaker
Haley's not gatekeeping it, Bevan. It's fine. You're fine. No, I just, I do, I want to dive into a little bit more about your work and your experiences in your timeline, kind of of where you've gotten.
Building a Financial Therapy Practice
00:50:30
Speaker
What have been some of the biggest,
00:50:33
Speaker
hurdles that you've had in your, in your journey. If you don't mind sharing. Right. Well, so if I can ask kind of a clarification, clarifying question, do you mean in my work as a financial therapist? Yeah. Yeah. As your journey becoming the financial therapist that you are today, what have, what have you, um, once again, asking for a friend, I'm the friend.
00:51:04
Speaker
what have been some of the kind of like hurdles that you have taken on? Sure. So just to give you context as well, I'm fairly new here, you know, to this world, as most people are to be perfectly frank, because again, it's an emerging space. But I started my I launched my private practice last year.
00:51:33
Speaker
So I've only been doing this particular iteration of this work for a year. Some of the hurdles along the way have really been because it is such a new space. So if I'm advising or kind of in a mentor type of capacity,
00:52:03
Speaker
At all for anyone who is interested in joining this very needed and exciting field it is to I would give you the you know, give the advice to Just know that you're stepping into a uncharted land None of us have maps none of us have like there hasn't been a
00:52:31
Speaker
the paths created. Like right now, there's like maybe some footpaths that we, you know, some people have created, but we're all still exploring what's here. And so just give yourself permission to own that. And also create capacity in your life to or make space in your life to
00:53:01
Speaker
to deal with all that that brings up as well. So that has been one of the hurdles that I've seen is feeling misunderstood when I say what I do, feeling shut down or like that my voice isn't really needed from the more powerful voices that are out there in the personal finance world.
00:53:30
Speaker
But the antidote to that has just been to seek out support, seek out community. And, uh, and also really trust myself, like really rely and continue to develop that sense of inner self trust that this is where I'm meant to be. This is what I meant to be doing. So again, asking for a friend named Mike.
00:53:57
Speaker
What's the actual, like, what is the pathway to financial therapy? Because you said, like, you went back to school, got your, you know, therapy degree license. Like, how would something we could just come from the financial world or the therapy world actually like do this thing? Before you answer, can I tell you what my roadmap is going to be? And then I can get your opinion on it.
00:54:25
Speaker
So not that you need my blessing. No, no, no. But as someone who has been through it, I want to make sure that, you know, this is because this is a journey that I am actively researching and figuring out how I want to do it while navigating the realities of just life. Right. So I do have I have I have my bachelor's degree. It's in music.
00:54:53
Speaker
But I was going originally for education, music education, so I have a lot of psychology courses. I almost had a minor. So that's kind of always been there. I'm coming from an approach of just from both my financial background and the military background of being kind of like a mentor coach.
00:55:17
Speaker
I feel very confident in my personal financial skills where I don't feel like I need to take business courses or I have looked at master's in personal finance, but looking at the curriculum, I have the personal experience and also I've worked with almost 500 people.
00:55:42
Speaker
So it's like, I know my worth in that side of things. Where I've kind of decided where I need to focus my higher education is on the counseling, is on the mental health. So I have the legitimacy
00:56:06
Speaker
Um, and I understand, you know, so my kind of trajectory right now is first step. I want to do the trauma of money because that's, I just have to pay that out of pocket. And I think that that would be unofficial as a coach. It's kind of, I see it first professional development for my current job that I work at. Um, cause I do, I am a personal financial coach full time. Um, if you want to work with me, DM me separately, because I don't want to mix. I know anyway.
00:56:36
Speaker
And same with Devon, if you want to work with her. She's also a don't want to, you know, if you need coaching rather than therapy right now, those are the two. And then once I have completed the trauma of money, my plan is to apply for a master's in mental health counseling. I haven't decided which license
00:56:57
Speaker
kind of route I wanna go post-education. I do know it takes two to three years after you get your degree to be fully licensed. So I know that process. And once I finished the degree in mental health counseling, I have, once again, I have the, because I sold my body to the government, I have my full GI Bill. So I'm gonna get paid to go to school full-time.
00:57:25
Speaker
So being strategic about where I go to school to maximize those benefits. So figuring out, you know, where in the world or where in the country I want to go to school and what program I want to go to. So that's kind of where I'm at is researching the different types of programs. But then once I finish my, while I'm working on my hours to become licensed,
00:57:54
Speaker
Kansas State University has an online certificate for financial therapy, and I'm going to use the last little bit of my GI Bill to do that. So I have a three-pronged education course that's going to take probably like five to six years total.
00:58:13
Speaker
But that is, I've been like honing in on that over the last four or five months of like, this is something that I want to do. I've been following a lot of you guys on social media. It aligns with everything that I feel like I have been doing and I just want to bring more legitimacy. And then as someone who I know you are also part of the the queer community, my focus in financial therapy and
00:58:43
Speaker
coaching, I want to focus with an emphasis on queer and polyamorous individuals. We need you. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I don't want to interrupt you. Yeah. No, that that's kind of my that has been my like it like that has been my homework. That's what I've been kind of like brainstorming. So if you have any
00:59:12
Speaker
thoughts, comments, concerns, would love to hear it as someone who is on the other side of that track, or if you have anything to add of what your journey with what you did in terms of like education. Yeah, that sounds like perfection, honestly, like simple answer, right?
00:59:35
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that will serve you well to have a plan. Most of the folks here in the financial therapy space right now, we kind of all stumbled into it. And we're like, oh, what is this new land? This is cool. And then there's me that I stumbled into it and then I went back and got my degree and that sort of thing.
01:00:02
Speaker
So someone who will have the intentionality that you have will that, yeah, that will just serve you really well. I will say from my experience, the, yes, you 100% agree with you. You don't need any more education or training or certain, you know, like, what was the word? Um, legitimacy in the personal finance, like.
01:00:27
Speaker
knowledge literacy like that at all. I might try and get my CFP. Sure. Like I might try to take the test because I feel like honestly,
01:00:39
Speaker
If you can, I mean, if you could just do it, just do it. I mean, I think I believe you can. I, there's, there is like study materials, but I feel like I, and I obviously I would, I would look into that, but that eventually probably would make sense to just also legitimate sides. The let's talk about your money because I'm both the idea is to be a licensed therapist and a CFP. So yeah. But yeah. So from my personal experience,
01:01:08
Speaker
the I would I always highly recommend if you can going back to grad school to actually get the training in the therapy aspect, whether that's mental health counseling, I did clinical social work. There's marriage and family therapy. And then of course, the psychology. Basically, I mean, the industry once you graduate and you do get your licensure, it's
01:01:36
Speaker
if you're working clinically, one-on-one, it's all the same job. So, um, there's little nuances here and there. Don't come after me, fellas. But like basically like, yeah. Um, but, um, that now I will prepare yourself to enter a world where finances are not talked about. It's highly taboo. And if they are talked about, it is,
01:02:04
Speaker
with not healthy relationship or mindset or approach at all. And so that will not be in the scope of any kind of a grad school degree, but you will have access and training and the internship and all of that with being able to put the interventions into place to perfect the craft of really holding space for people.
01:02:35
Speaker
So yes, and then that'll be an easy transition to be able to kind of use that with folks in their money. So I do highly recommend that the grad school and getting licensed, if you can, trauma of money for me was like coming home, to be honest, because it is, first off, I'm a trauma therapist, right?
01:03:05
Speaker
And that I would have sought out what they provided over probably decades over my career. And I would have found and come to those conclusions and developed that craft on my own. And I felt like they just had, it was like, I found the gem, the world, the place that I belonged, right? Where, oh, these are people who have already
01:03:34
Speaker
figured this out and are already doing it and I can learn from them. I don't have to be on my own. So trauma of money for me was the key to kind of bring it all together as far as really helping folks knowing and it's also an immersive experience as well. And so you're you're experiencing it yourself along with being able to
01:04:04
Speaker
take away tools that you can immediately implement with your clients as well. So those two, I can't speak to the Kansas State Certification. I can speak to the Financial Therapy Association Certification. That to me was, it was okay, sure, to get some legitimacy, sure. But as far as, it was very academic,
01:04:35
Speaker
It was very, you know, learn the material, take the task, get the certification as far as like the actual practical aspect of it. And my, what I've heard as well from the Kansas state program, it's similar, right? Great information, but just very academic. Right.
01:04:53
Speaker
Like teach to the test type of thing. Yeah. It's more of a, like, because I know that it does help you. It prepares you for the certification test. And I think also it covers your first. Attempt or something. I think, I mean, it can be completely wrong, but the.
01:05:14
Speaker
The reason that it's so appealing is that I will still have GI Bill left after my grad school. So it's like, okay, let me do these two programs and use it all up and me not pay a penny for it. So yeah, that's, that's. I will say, I will say that having that extra, this, those extra letters after your name, the one thing that from, again, like kind of an anti-capitalist like
01:05:43
Speaker
Very like a anti-hierarchy person, right? The one thing that I have found value in having those extra letters.
01:05:53
Speaker
is that it does get you into rooms and gets you a seat at the table and gets you into conversations that I otherwise would not have had access to. And so it gets you on the radar. And so there is value in that. Yes. And just to be clear, will you, for the folks at home and everything like that, what are your letters? Like what all? Sure.
01:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, so I am a licensed social work associate in the state of Washington. You're allowed to start your own private practice as an associate. As long as you do have a supervisor, which I do, I have two, I have lots of support. And then I also have
01:06:44
Speaker
the CFT certification. So the certified financial therapist level one certification through the Financial Therapy Association. That is the one where it was very academic and useful to open the doors. Yes. And very soon
01:07:02
Speaker
I will have the trauma of money certification as well. Finishing that up. And this is just, sorry, because I've kind of walked down the rabbit hole of the CFT one certification to see if it might be a good fit for me. Is there a level two or is that just like a T? There is. It's up to a level three. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I don't know of anybody personally that has gone past level one. Okay. I'm just curious because I was like,
01:07:31
Speaker
you know, when they say level one, it indicates there are more levels. I'm like, where are these levels? Are they hidden levels? Do you have to go into a cave? I don't know. Right. It's an emerging space. That's what everybody's trying it out and seeing how it goes. Thank you so much for your insight. We are getting
01:07:55
Speaker
close, if not over our time, but this has just been an incredible conversation. So I do have one more question. You did say that you have been kind of doing your private practice now for a year. Are you willing to
01:08:13
Speaker
briefly, as we like to call from our old place of employment, get financially naked with us for a second on how has this year gone in terms of realities of opening your own practice? Sure. So I did make the decision to step out on my own with the safety net of having a partner whose income
01:08:41
Speaker
we can fully live on. So that is part of my context that I realized that not everybody has. Right. So, but yeah, so I have. Last year I brought in my revenue was 23,000 for the year after launching in March. I currently
01:09:11
Speaker
am able to pay myself pretty regularly every month between the amount of $1,500 to $2,000. Again, not livable wage, but you know. And right now I am, yeah, well, what else do you need to know? Yeah. I think that's great, you know, and I, as you said, it's an emerging kind of space.
01:09:40
Speaker
And I know one thing that I've talked to other financial therapists about is, you know, what level, cause I have friends in the therapy world that just general licensed therapists that have started on their own. They have told me, you know, if you just started a practice straight out of grad school without your certification or your license yet, typically if you work at a practice, especially that takes like health insurance,
01:10:08
Speaker
you can make around 60 to 70,000 with then she just also stepped out on her own and this past year made 170,000 and she's like, I work 30 hours a week. But because my clients in the state that she lives in, and I know every state's different and all this other stuff, but the state that she lives in, she takes certain clients that have certain health insurances.
Insurance and Therapist Autonomy
01:10:33
Speaker
So they, you know, a session through the health insurance
01:10:37
Speaker
her clients pay a co-pay of like $25, but she gets paid almost $300 per hour. And I know that with it being an emerging intersection, some of the challenges that I've heard is, unless if someone has a gambling addiction, or they've been referred to you because of something,
01:11:02
Speaker
you know your clients have to pay out of pocket you may not be able to depending on the work that you're doing you may not be able to have that boost of of insured billing insurance and so and hopefully that landscape changes as we
01:11:23
Speaker
you know, as the, as the, um, I think, you know, it is a much needed, um, niche of therapy. And I think that, uh, but you know, that's just a reality that I've also been acutely aware of, um, doing my research and stuff like that. So it's important to, to note about that. Yes. Yeah. So there is the whole conversation about whether or not to be on insurance panels when you're a therapist.
01:11:51
Speaker
And it really is an entire conversation. I have intentionally chosen not to take insurance and to be out of pocket because that allows me to have so much more freedom to do the work that actually needs to be done with my clients. Also, if you are paneled with insurance, they have the control.
01:12:21
Speaker
they can come back and they can garner your wages at any time for any reason that they deem necessary. And they can also take all of the client notes, information, anything. It's theirs. It's not mine. It's not the client's. And so that lack of consent.
01:12:46
Speaker
was very important to me from the get go and so that is that yeah that has been a very intentional both eyes wide open decision that I have made in order to have that autonomy because that is so core to the work that I do with my particular clients as well yeah
01:13:15
Speaker
No, I resonate with that so much.
Innovating Financial Therapy Practices
01:13:19
Speaker
And that has been because of that knowledge that I've known and, you know, all this homework that I'm doing of this like path that I want to take is like, I'm also now working to lower my financial footprint as much as I can. Because I want to, Devon and I talk about this all the time, we are working towards that soft life. Like, I want to be able to not worry about money.
01:13:45
Speaker
I have the, you know, one of the privileges that I do have is that disability income. I have non taxable income that I get every month. And so if I can, as I'm working through this school and this certification, how little can I create my footprint so that when I do decide to create this coaching therapy,
01:14:12
Speaker
practice that I can potentially even, you know, sliding scale, you know, based off of my client's income. Like that, those are things that are important to me because I want it to be accessible and I want to be able to help. My goal is not necessarily to become rich and famous. My goal through all of this with my values is to help people, but I need to make sure that I'm where I need to be.
01:14:39
Speaker
to do that. Right. Yeah. I feel that. Yes. And I'm going to call back to the reimagining piece, that piece of this is an act. I very much see it as I'm also trailblazing. Again, not alone. There's a whole slew of us out here in the therapy world that are literally reimagining how healing work can be done.
01:15:08
Speaker
and the money piece as a part of that. Yes, but it is labor, right? But again, I feel like it's something that is exciting and we're disrupting shit, right? Like we're rebuilding things. We're reimagining how we can help folks and still thrive on our own accord.
01:15:36
Speaker
That's perfect. Come join in. Yes. The water is good. I feel like I'm at the pool and I'm just like on the sidelines and y'all are just like having a grand old time in the pool and I'm just like, let me go get my bathing suit. I'll be right back. Yeah, Michael, go get your bathing suit or just jump in. You know, there's no shame here. Like, come on.
01:16:06
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Haley. This has been a great conversation.
Connect with Hailey and Conclusion
01:16:10
Speaker
I feel like we've introduced a lot of folks to a concept that they didn't even know they needed. And I appreciate you for just kind of, you know, humoring us and kind of giving us the behind the scenes scoop of what it's like. Absolutely. Before we go, where can the people find you if they're looking for you? Yes, come and find me. Let's connect.
01:16:35
Speaker
You can find me on my website at Castillo Financial Therapy dot com. I am also hanging out on Instagram lately. That's kind of my playground at C underscore financial underscore therapy. And that's kind of the main places where you can find me. Feel free to sign up for my newsletter to kind of stay in touch with everything as well. But yeah, let's connect.
01:17:04
Speaker
Oh, I was just saying beyond your practice. Is there anything that people should be on the lookout for or like, I don't know if you've got like a conference coming up or something like that? Not at this point. I've got some stuff in the works, but nothing that I can actually, yeah. Okay. So the folks can do, go to our show notes, go to your Instagram, get on your email list so that they can see what's coming up. Yes. Yeah.
01:17:32
Speaker
I have loved, I appreciate y'all in this podcast and you as individuals so much. I feel like I want to be friends. Can we be friends? I have, this has given me life. Thank y'all so much.
01:17:47
Speaker
I actually, I also wanted to publicly thank you for being a supporter of our show, not only as a guest, but as a listener. So it really means a lot because this is a passion project for us. But it's something that we just love doing. And I think it's important. So yes, absolutely. Awesome.
01:18:08
Speaker
All right. Well, until next time, to everybody who's watching and listening, please reach out to us on our Instagram, dirty money underscore podcast. And let us know how much you love this episode, all of the questions that you have for Dr. Haley. And if you have questions for us, comments, concerns, whatever you want, let us know. We are here. We're excited. And if there's somebody that you want us to bring on to interview, we will also do that.
01:18:38
Speaker
The end. We did it. Goodbye. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe. That's the easiest way to support our show.
01:19:03
Speaker
We hope you took away a new nugget of information or perspective today. And we're grateful you took the time to listen to us. Until next time, bye. Bye.