Transcript
Speaker: You know, Maiden shows what a girl can do if just one person believes in her and I was such a screw up and I did Maiden and that's the message. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager. I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who's been through something difficult as a teenager but come out the other side in a good place and made a real success of their life.
Speaker: Has your teenager dropped out of education? And if so, are you worried about their future prospects? I'm hoping that this episode will give you some comfort and maybe a little bit of inspiration to help your child move forwards. My guest today is Tracy Edwards, MBE, sailor, author, motivational speaker, mature student and charity founder. I'm reading from my notes here because it's such a good list.
Speaker: Incredibly, all of these achievements came from a girl who was expelled from school when she was 15. Tracy won international fame in 1990 as the skipper of the first all -female crew to sail around the world when they raced maiden in the whip -red round -the -world race. She since headed up more incredible sailing projects, been through bankruptcy and recovered to become a philanthropist.
Speaker: After selling Maiden, she found her again in 2017, restored her and set up the Maiden Factor to promote and fundraise for the education of 130 million girls worldwide who don't currently have education as a right.
Speaker: As if that wasn't enough, Tracy's since done a degree in psychology, proving that you don't have to follow a typical educational path to get the qualifications you want. She's also the mum of a young adult, so she's well versed in parenting a teenager. Tracy, I'm going to want to know all your secrets to get me through the next few years with my own teenagers. Welcome to Teenage Kicks. Thank you.
Speaker: I can't wait to talk to you about teenage life in particular and get your tips on looking after my own. Because teenage life's not easy. Teenage parenting, I'd say might be even harder. I'm not sure which is the hardest, but I'm going to start with asking you a little bit about your film, Maiden. Now, I'm not a documentary lover. I've got about 32 episodes of Panorama sitting there waiting for me because I feel like I should watch them.
Speaker: But I'm not kidding, your film Maiden had me literally on the edge of my seat. Can you put yourself back there to when you were really quite a young woman in charge of that crew and describe some of the emotions that you went through? Yeah, so it was actually quite weird for us watching that film. I have to say we weren't, we didn't quite know what to expect. We had given them full editorial rights, which is quite a little bit nerve wracking
Speaker: Yeah, we'd all agreed that we were going to be very honest and really say it like it was. And I think, well, I couldn't believe actually that everyone was so kind to me. I thought it was going to be a lot worse. So I think we all watched the film and came away with the same opinion was that we couldn't believe who we were then. And so to be transported back to that and to
Speaker: remember all those emotions, which I think over 30 years, probably most of us hadn't not forgotten, but we sort of moved on from if you like. And I remember thinking that the thing that I thought the most was I don't remember ever being that profound. I mean, I, I look at myself at the age of 22, 23. And I'm like, Oh, I was actually seriously impressive. I have no memory of that at all. My memory of myself then
Speaker: was, you know, a bit of a muppet, actually, if I'm honest, you know, sort of somehow wading through that project and somehow getting to the start line. So it was actually quite a vindication for all of us that we were
Speaker: A, so well organised, so driven and passionate and I'd forgotten I was that tenacious really. So yeah, the film is a really interesting way to go back and realise all that. Yeah, I love that actually. And when you look back at where you were, God, 30 years ago, that feels, but it doesn't. In other respects, it actually feels like, you know, just last year or so.
Speaker: and to see that actually you were a really strong person, a really smart person, a really savvy person. I think young people do themselves a bit of a disservice, they think they're a bit rub - well we all think we're a bit rubbish at times don't we? So to look back and see what you've achieved and yeah amazingly how cool is that to be able to watch yourself at that age? Yeah no it's very cool and it's a shame isn't it that
Speaker: as young, when we were young people, that we didn't have more faith in ourselves, you know, that we have to grow up and look back and go, oh, actually, yeah, no, I was, I was an okay human. Well, I mean, I wasn't, during my teenage years, I most certainly was not. But of course, in my early 20s, I'd already got all that out of my system. Actually, I got it out of my system by the time I was 17.
Speaker: and had grown up very quickly. I guess we look at our own young people, our own children as they go through that and we try and make it better and we try and say all the right things but at the end of the day we all have to learn and sometimes we have to learn the hard way.
Speaker: Yeah, and on our own, we have to do it our own way. So actually, let's go there. Can you tell us a little bit about the circumstances of your departure from standard education? And I'm using air quotes for those who can't see this. Yeah, so I was a very well behaved child up until the age of 10.
Speaker: I always, my mum always used to say that, you know, I don't know if you remember that advert from a very long time ago. Mummy says I'm going to be a proper little madam. And I do. So that is how people used to describe me, you know, very precocious, very confident. I mean, I have some think I was probably a bit of a brat, but very happy and with a very, you know, great family and a happy home life. And then my father died when I was 10.
Speaker: And my mother, unfortunately, remarried and the guy that she remarried was not a particularly pleasant individual. We didn't know that at the time. The best thing he did do was move us down to Wales. Well, that double -edged sword really, because we moved to a small holding in the beautiful Gower Peninsula and
Speaker: I met a group of kids from the village that I was in and around and we ran wild. I mean, we were uncontrollable. My poor mother, I just feel like saying sorry to her every single day what I put her through because I just changed so drastically. You know, I'd gone from, I guess I'd gone from an English boarding school, girls boarding school to a mixed comprehensive. And so that was,
Speaker: a huge shock to the system. My father and my stepfather and I had quite a volatile and at times violent relationship. He was an abusive alcoholic.
Speaker: And I went downhill very quickly. I mean, it was quite spectacular, I think, really the change. And I think the worst thing was I didn't tell my mum any of this. I just became this awful, horrible person and didn't tell her why. I didn't ask for help. I didn't say what was happening with him. I didn't tell her I was being bullied at school very badly.
Speaker: and you know that I'd sort of retreated to hanging out with this gang who became my family really, my protection and you know we all were very close and I excluded my mother entirely from my life you know during the ages of 13, 14
Speaker: And then at the age of 15, I was finally expelled. I mean, my poor headmaster had suspended me on a number of occasions. I almost judge him for not expelling me sooner. He obviously saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. And in the end, he couldn't allow me to stay any longer. And I remember my mum, I don't think she was that surprised really, but what is surprising to me
Speaker: Now, when I look back at it, was how courageous it was of her to say, well, you know, I think travel would be good for you, you know, and
Speaker: When my daughter became 16, I remembered that my mum had let me backpack to Greece at the age of 16. And I just went, oh my goodness, now I know how brave she was. And I would never let my 16 -year -old daughter do that. I mean, it was a different time. I don't think it was that dangerous. But what she did was she gave me this gift, which was this travel to get away from where I was
Speaker: probably headed to prison, I would suspect. I'd stolen a car by that point, I'd been arrested, I was on probation. So travel for me was something which gave me a chance to live the rest of my life in some sort of semblance of sanity. Well, I guess it gave you something to grab onto, something to do and fill your time and your energy and your mind.
Speaker: Well, it did. And, you know, Mum always used to say to me, well, she didn't always used to say to me, she said to me once before I left. She said, you know, we are all good at at least one thing. I think she was saying her prayers hard at that point. But I think she believed that I needed to go and find me because I wasn't there. That wasn't me. And it was just the best decision that anyone could have made for me.
Speaker: Very brave of her. Can I ask why you didn't tell her all of the things that were going on for you? I think, well, I mean, I don't know how other teenagers are, but I found it very difficult to ask for help. In fact, I've spent the whole of my life learning how to ask for help. That's probably my personality.
Speaker: But the other thing as well was, you know, she had so much else to deal with. I mean, you know, she was earning the money. He was drinking it and she was fixing all his messes and, you know, and trying to, you know, mum was a very respectable upper middle class lady. And, you know, she kind of fell from a great height, really. And she had some great friends in the village.
Speaker: where we lived and she worked in the pub and they were very supportive of her but I think she felt acutely that her place in the world had been shifted and changed and I couldn't add to it which is perverse because if she'd known it might have made the situation better but in my young mind I thought I would be better off not telling her and just acting out instead.
Speaker: You know what though at that age we think that we're capable of taking on the world by ourselves don't we? So I can imagine you not wanting to burden her and thinking you could just handle it but obviously you weren't handling it and you said you were bullied at school. Do you remember why that was? Yes I stood up for another girl who was being bullied and I didn't know how things worked then you know I'd come from this really nice
Speaker: you know, arts educational, girls boarding school where I'd studied to be a ballerina. And here I was, you know, in this comprehensive school in Wales in Swansea. And it was a bit of an experiment. It had gone from grammar school to a comprehensive school and not very successfully. I might add, although now it's a very good school, but then it was going, it throws of, oh, I don't know, chaos. And, you know, there was some pretty tough kids there and two of them in particular, I won't say who they were.
Speaker: sisters, they were bullying a friend of mine, we just got off the school bus and they'd started on her and I stuck up for her. Because I didn't know any better, you know, that's how... Well, good for you. Well, that's how I was taught, you know, that's how I grew up and, you know, values and principles and I learnt very quickly to my cost when they stopped bullying her and turned on me, that was the, you know, that's the result.
Speaker: And I mean, not just bullying as in a sort of a psychological sense, which was also, you know, just the fear of turning a corner, would they be there? And the little, they had a gang and getting on, running onto the school bus and hiding under the seats. So they couldn't get to me before I got on the bus. And one day when I did actually go to the sweet shop on my own, which was a really stupid thing to do that they surrounded me and
Speaker: beat the living what's it out of me so that was the point when I stopped going to school and you know because I hated it anyway and then this happened and I just hang out with my mates at their house get off the school bus at someone's house and stay there for the day and intercept the lessons from my headmaster when they used to arrive at home
Speaker: We had a post box at the end of you, we had a small holding so at the end of a very long drive, you know, I'd just pick up the letter from the headmaster on my way to wherever I was going to Mitch from school that day. Wow, we're very resourceful as teenagers, right? Very, often in not the right way. No, well this is what scares me because my daughter's about to turn 16 and like you say, I cannot imagine
Speaker: there's places way closer than abroad that I wouldn't want to let her go right now. I cannot imagine opening the door and saying off you go. And yeah, actually, I was 18 when my mum and dad allowed me having been actually quite controlling parents only allowed out once a week and not back
Speaker: after midnight and dad picks me up and awful they suddenly let me get on a coach to Plymouth and a ferry to Spain and go au pairing and do my own thing and at that point there's no mobile phones no internet they had no idea where I was
Speaker: I don't know how parents do that. Well, do you know what? I think it's a leap of faith, isn't it? Whatever age they are. She could be 38 and I'd still be a bit nervous if it was the first time. Have you been through that moment with your daughter where you've just let her go and gone, God, I hope it's all right. Yeah, absolutely. I
Speaker: I have to say I am incredibly lucky with my daughter. She is opposite to me in almost every way it's possible to be opposite to your mother. I think we jump a generation because my grandmother was incredibly naughty and I'm very much like my grandmother. My mother was a very little Miss Goody two -shoes and my daughter is very much like my mother.
Speaker: So I haven't told my daughter that she's in for a real shock when she ever has a daughter. I totally agree. I've said that this morning to someone that totally skipped generations. I can totally see. In fact, I don't know why. There must be some science behind it. There must be. But I've been so lucky. My daughter is... I look at her sometimes and I just think, who are you?
Speaker: So, I mean, she's had an interesting life and it's not been easy. And I think, you know, it's interesting, actually, I often get asked by some smart aleck in a school usually, Miss, do you think it's because you were expelled that you were successful? So all the teachers, you know, take a sharp intake. And I always say, no, no, I was successful despite being expelled, not because of it.
Speaker: I think that the trials and tribulations of our youth often contribute, obviously, to who we are as an adult.
Speaker: My daughter is no different. You know, when she was three years old, you know, I carted her off to the Middle East and we lived in Qatar for two years while I put a big sailing event on there, which went horribly wrong. Well, the sailing event didn't, but they didn't pay us. So she went to school in Qatar, which is like going to school in an oven. And you know, so she, you know, we had a driver and a houseboy, which is
Speaker: a bit surreal, you know, and not something...
Speaker: I particularly liked, but you know, it's what you do. And then of course, bankruptcy, losing everything, everything I'd ever worked for. I lost everything, the boat, my house, my home. I had to put my mum who was living with us into a home, which was the worst part of all of it because my mum and my daughter were very, very close. And so that was awful. And then, you know, literally packing all of our house into storage and moving to London.
Speaker: Found a great little house, semi -detached, which we moved into, which was actually paid for by one of my creditors. I had lovely creditors. And, you know, change of school. I mean, she's been to seven schools in her life and then a sixth -form college. And, you know, to the point where I did manage to... I've always fought tooth and nail to send her to private school and...
Speaker: You know, I don't know whether that's right or wrong, but my mum fought for me and my brother to do it. And, you know, maybe it's just a blind tradition. I don't know. But it was important for me. And I quite frankly would have lived in a cardboard box in the middle of the road. It meant being able to afford for her to go to school.
Speaker: But, you know, to the point where I would turn up to these schools, you know, in my nanny before she left us, left me her old banger. And so I used to park down the end of the road and we used to walk the last bit so that people couldn't see which car we were arriving in. But she's, my daughter has turned out to be very adaptable and
Speaker: She's very much, you know, there's a very strong line of women in my family and she's very much a product of that. She's much quieter than me. She's, I think she's a sort of an introvert, but you know, she, where she's coming out of that, she used to be quite shy. She's very gentle. She's very quiet. All the things I'm not. Do you know what? She sounds amazing. And you say that she's nothing like you.
Speaker: Um, and it's all down to her, but actually I don't think we give ourselves credit as parents. You may feel like you haven't given her the most amazing life, but maybe it's because of your parenting. Maybe it's because of her experiences that she's turned out the way she has. What's your parenting thing? I think, well, I mean, my mum said to me, I knew I was going to be a single mother and that was a very conscious decision on my part not to stay with her father.
Speaker: which was the right decision and I think it's interesting actually it's only 20 years ago but that was even then that was my mum I think there was a little bit of stigma attached to that and she struggled with it bless her but you know she was always there for me always very supportive
Speaker: And she said to me, you know, you're going to be a single mum and it's really important that you get the beginning bit right. And she said, you know, she fits in around your life. You do not fit in around hers. You know, you're going to be a working mum. She's got to have a routine. So mum, I bought a house with a little cottage in the garden and literally from when Mac was old enough to toddle.
Speaker: you know she'd be over, I was very lucky and you know my mum was very close and so she used to toggle over to my mum's, see grandma who'd read to her and you know they were like they put some peas in a pod and but I was, I was probably quite a tough parent, I think that please and thank you is important and I think that when you say no it's no and I
Speaker: I think I probably got that from my parents. And if I'm honest, I think that, I think if I hadn't had that first 10 years of my life and I'd had the then experience of my teenage years, I wouldn't have got back to being me if I hadn't had that, you know, that discipline at a young age. And I mean, ample oodles of love as well and affection, but no, I mean, my dad was very tough and, you know, my mum was a bit of a softie.
Speaker: But I do believe in discipline. And I'll never forget, actually, when Mac had been to one of her first ever play dates. I mean, absolutely terrifying, obviously, for us mothers the first time they do that, because then you have to deal with other mothers. And there, you know, you start to form opinions of each other. And it's, God, that's so scary. No one warns you. And anyway, this lady dropped Mac off and she came into the house and this woman looked at me and she went, how do you do it?
Speaker: I went thinking she meant how do I be how am I full -time you know job and mother and everything else so I said oh how do I do what and she said how do you get her to say please and thank you and I thought how do I get her to say please and thank you what a weird question and it was something I just assumed that you know that's what you do but then I think
Speaker: I mean, I am proud of the way I brought up my daughter. It has not been easy. You know, we've been through some interesting times. It took me a long time to get back on our feet. But I think, you know, she has had an interesting life which has contributed to her awesome personality. I mean, she works for me now.
Speaker: And she runs all the maidens events very competently. I mean, she's an extraordinary organizer, which obviously I think that does that does come from me. But she does have a strength of character, which I think probably, as you say, comes from all of these different experiences. And every time someone says to me, my goodness, your daughter is such a delight, I just
Speaker: I mean, there's nothing like it is there? No, I'm getting chiffers now and she's not my daughter. I know exactly what you mean. Isn't it awesome to see that? We're at 16 now and I'm only just beginning to see I always knew there were things there. She always made me proud.
Speaker: But I'm just beginning to see a glimpse of the adult that she's going to be. And I'm so excited. Honestly, it's amazing. It is amazing being a mom of a teenager. And that's why I do this podcast and these blog posts, because I'm constantly told by parents of younger kids, often girls, how scared they are about the teenage years. And yeah, they are challenging, but they are amazing as well.
Speaker: Um, look, let's go back a little bit because it's just fascinating. Can you tell us just a little bit about the story of how you got from 15 year old expelled off on travels to Greece to
Speaker: being the skipper of a record -breaking yacht crew. That's a weird one, isn't it, really? Yeah. So, yeah, I was working in a bar in Greece, and I'd see these beautiful yachts out in the marina, and it never occurred to me that people actually work on these. Although the crews, you know, I'd start meeting the crews, and they would come into the bar, and then a guy came in one night to skipper up one of these beautiful yachts and said,
Speaker: his stewardess had left he had a chance coming up and would I like to leave my job as a as a barmaid and become a stewardess and I said yes in about five seconds and the next day literally I left and I was on the boat and I
Speaker: We had to go to Rhodes to pick up the charter. So four days with just the crew and getting to sort of feel my way around a little bit. And within four days, I knew that this is what I was going to do for the rest of my life in some way, shape or form. And at the age of 17,
Speaker: to know that I mean that was a gift it was like you know someone up there gone right here's your second chance take it you know and um I mean apart from the fact that I was horribly seasick and uh knew that I was just gonna have to deal with that uh I don't think I've read that about you so you've done all this sailing but you suffer from seasickness yeah have you got got on
Speaker: I'm not too fond of getting wet and cold either, but anyway. So what was it about the boat that you loved? For me it initially wasn't the sailing or the ocean, for me it was the people. This was the first time, well actually not the first time, really the second time in my life that I had been adopted by a group of people.
Speaker: And I fitted in so well because everyone on boats at that time, none of us had any exams or qualifications or anything, people used to fall into sailing. And it was usually reprobates and gypsies and nomads and ne 'er -do -wells, as my mother would say. We gravitated together. And again, we were this quite dysfunctional family.
Speaker: Very, there's something very psychological about this, something quite Freudian, I think, because the skipper is like dad and the cook is like mum, and then you've got the steward and the stewardesses and the deck hands. It's also very weird. But it worked and it worked for me. And, you know, for the first time, I think, ever in my life, I felt part of something rather than on the outside.
Speaker: looking in at something. And I spent most of my childhood wondering why I was always slightly behind everyone else. I figured everything out a little bit after everyone else figured it out and thinking I was probably quite dense. And here were these people who completely accepted me for what I was. And I had these extraordinary skippers as well. I had been
Speaker: very lucky in my life. And they would see something in me and do something about it and say, well, why don't you learn to cook? Why are you just doing this? And on my second transatlantic, my skipper said to me, can you navigate? I said, of course I can't navigate. I was expelled before long division. It was stupid.
Speaker: You know, numbers are like hieroglyphs to me. And he said, well, don't you think that's a bit worrying? You know, what if I fall over the side? I said, well, there's two other guys. He said, well, you know, what if they fall over the side? I said, well, I'll use the electronic thingy.
Speaker: And he said, the batteries go down. I'm like, oh, for goodness sake. So he said to me, second most profound thing anyone has ever said to me in my life, he said, why are you being a bystander in your own life? He said, you're supposed to be playing the starring role in your own life. Not a bit part. I thought, okay, a little bit profound for two days out into the Atlantic. But he said, I'll teach you to navigate. And he, he taught me to navigate in two days. And navigation became my,
Speaker: overriding passion. It became the thing that I was good at, that I loved. I'd never, never lost my passion for it.
Speaker: And it really gave me much more of a reason to be on boats and sailing and to go into racing, which I eventually did, as a sort of a weekend fun pastime that everyone used to do. I thought, well, I'll try that. And then I discovered that I'm very competitive, which I did not know up until that point. And, you know, this overwhelming competitiveness.
Speaker: Um, and I thought, oh, racing is, this is so much fun. I, you know, I like this. So I ended up doing the 85 86 race, uh, Whitbread round the world race, um, on a boat called Atlantic privateer. Now this is my God, I know 35 years ago when girls didn't get on boats and race around the world. So I think, I think there were 260 crew and there were three girls and I was the only girl on a ocean racing maxi. And actually the first one.
Speaker: to ever do the race on the top level boat as a cook, I have to say. I mean, there's no way I've got on as anything else, but I just loved it, absolutely loved it. And I hated the cooking. I mean, I'm really not a great cook.
Speaker: God knows how I got that job, but I just got to the end and I just thought, what a myth all this is, you know, all this macho, oh, this is really tough race and you're, oh, you little five foot two, you know, female, you're going to really struggle with this. I got to the end and I thought, I don't think that was very much of a struggle.
Speaker: apart from the fact that I was pretty seasick. So I just thought, this is crazy. Why aren't more women doing this? It's so much fun. And that's the first time I looked at the sailing industry and thought, oh, this is sexism. This is what misogyny looks like. Because of course in the charter world doesn't exist because the girls are in the galley and the boys are on the deck. So it's kind of working how it should.
Speaker: And I remember saying to my mum, you know, this is crazy. I want to go around as a navigator, but I know no man will ever let me on his boat as a navigator. Ever. That's never going to happen. I thought, God, that's, isn't that, you know, an awful knowledge to have? And she said, well, if you don't like the way the world looks, change it. And I said, I can't.
Speaker: change a whole industry. She said, you don't have to change the whole industry. She said, do the one thing that makes the next thing change, that makes the next thing change. Be the person who makes the first change.
Speaker: I'm like, okay. I love your mum. Your mum sounds amazing. I miss her so much, I know. She'd love what we're doing now, I have to say. So I thought, okay, I don't know how to do that. I flew over to Jordan to stay with King Usain, who I'd met when I was chartering and we were friends.
Speaker: Honestly, I'm sorry, I've got to interrupt. I flew over to Jordan to stay with King Hussein. What kind of sentence is that? People don't get to say that. How did you meet him and get on? I'm sorry, I'm taking you off track, but I need to know this. That's fine. I met him when I was a stewardess on a charts yacht. He and Queen Noor chartered the boat I was on in America.
Speaker: was 21 years old and we just got on like a house on fire. I mean I have to qualify that King Hussein was one of the most extraordinary human beings who's ever walked this earth and he was a collector of people. He loved humans, goodness knows why, but he did and he would
Speaker: If he liked someone or if he got on with someone, he would stay in touch. And I have met loads of people from all over the world who went through this very weird thing as well. And they were like, I thought I was the only one, you know. And so, yeah, we got on really well. We both loved navigating. We both like taking machinery apart and putting it back together again. We love radio communication. He was a ham radio operator.
Speaker: So we stayed in touch over the years. And so he was really the next person I told about this. And I said, you know, I think I have to put my own team into the race, you know, and I think it's got to be an all female cruise that we can prove that women can do it. But, you know, so that basically so that I can navigate. I mean, this is quite selfish. Right. And he said to me, this absolutely you must absolutely do this, you know, and he he had no doubt
Speaker: He had no doubt I could do it. You know, so we announced the first all -female cruise to the Whitbird around the world race, and that was in 1986. That was in September 1986, of course, to much laughter and hilarity from the rest of the sailing world, which I'd kind of expected. But what I didn't expect was the. The viciousness of some of the things that were said about us was quite
Speaker: It was quite amazing. Tell me some. Can you remember? Oh, female journalists tended to be the worst, which was such a shame. I know. I mean, God, all that's changed now. But at the time, I think they were trying to outdo the male journalists. One woman wrote, back to the kitchen sink, girls, you failed. Another one wrote, women will never be as good as men. And I was quite extraordinary. And my favorite.
Speaker: Bob Fisher, who I adore now, we're very good friends now, but at the time, oh my God, he was awful, and he wrote, in the Guardian newspaper, they're just a tin full of tarts.
Speaker: You'd never get away with that now, surely. Oh my goodness. Women, the horrible women saying awful things about women. Women saying that women will never make it and will always be worse than men. I know. I mean, it's all changed now, but well.
Speaker: to a degree, it's changed. But yeah, I know. We still have a long way to go. You still have to stand up for yourself. And that's what I'm really liking. Well, I'm liking in your story that you've absolutely determined to make things happen. And I think that's a message that kids need to hear that if something isn't working, they need to change it and they need they can't wait for it to change. They need to be the person that makes that change. I think that's a wonderful message.
Speaker: and also just not to stand for it, not to put up, not to quietly retreat when somebody says something terrible about you or gets in your way, but to quietly and sensibly but determinedly make it happen and go around them and call them out for it. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: I think, I mean, I don't think I know that Maiden attracted a certain type of person and these were extraordinary individuals. I mean, she was like a magnet, Maiden's like a magnet for anyone who has ever been told they couldn't do anything, especially for women sailors. I mean, people say to me, how did you find your team? Well, I didn't, they found me. They arrived from all over the world, you know.
Speaker: couldn't find 12 women in the UK that had that experience because I was the only one in the boat that had ever done the race and so that was an interesting process but I had all the support you know and all these amazing people you know with their strength and their tenacity and we'd all have ups and downs I mean there were times where I thought
Speaker: I can't do this anymore. And, you know, Howard Gibbons, our project manager, would turn around and say that, you know, I've got you, I've got the slack, you know. And so we all contributed to this, you know, sort of this forward movement.
Speaker: which never faltered, even if individuals, if we ever so often, we faltered, you know, that maiden was always going to happen as far as we were all concerned. And I mean, in the end, it was King saying that funded maiden when we couldn't find sponsorship and we'd raised the money to buy a secondhand boat. You know, we'd done all the work on the boat ourselves, which is very unusual at that time to see a woman anywhere near a boatyard, let alone working on a boat.
Speaker: But also around about that time, we started getting a lot of support from the teams within the race who started to realise that we weren't going away. We were actually quite professional. I don't think they thought we were going to do very well, but they started helping and we started becoming part of what was happening. So that was interesting. But yeah, people say to me, you must be a great sailor.
Speaker: I'm really not. I'm not. I have to work quite hard at the whole sort of, you know, sailing technique and everything else. What I'm good at is picking teams. And, you know, I, as far as I'm concerned, I picked the best teams in the world. And Maiden was, I think, the best team in the Whitbread. And that's how we got through it. And that's how we got to the start line. And that's how we competed. And you were actually pretty successful. We were.
Speaker: which was very annoying for so many people. Yeah, so yeah, so we won two of the legs and two of the most difficult legs and came second overall, which is the best result for a British boat since 1977 and hasn't been beaten yet. And we won lots of other awards on the way. Claire, our doctor, for instance, won the Courage Award, I think, or Achievement of the Race Award for saving the life of one of the guys on one of the other boats.
Speaker: And, you know, we won communication awards and all sorts of things. And then I became the first woman to win the Yachts Man of the Year award, which was, it's interesting. So yeah, we were very successful. And - Does it say Yachts Man on the trophy? It still says Yachts Man. Does it? Yeah. So since then, Ellen's won it and I've won it again. And Nikki Henderson has won it, but it's still Yachts Man of the Year award. There are some things that just don't change.
Speaker: I'd want to get a sharpie and cross it out and write woman. Sometimes you just have to move. You don't sweat the small stuff. No, it's just a word. Yeah. It is just a word. It is just a word, yeah. We were talking before we started recording about...
Speaker: Mary Claude, who was your skipper? No, you were the skipper. She was my first mate. First mate, that's it. And watching the film, the moment when you two fell out pretty catastrophically and she went,
Speaker: I was thinking, oh my God, this is never going to happen. How's she going to get there? How's she going to recover from this? That boat's not sailing. Because it was such a big rift. I wasn't going to ask you about it, but because you mentioned her and your friends again now, I'd love to know what happened in that relationship and why and how it's patched up back together again to be as good as it is now.
Speaker: Well, I mean, this whole thing really is that none of it was her fault. She was fulfilling the role for which I had employed her. But the more she asserted her dominance, the more I didn't like it. And, you know, at that point, I was 24, 25, and quite young, I think, in my
Speaker: social awareness and learning how to be a leader. I mean, in two years I had to learn how to raise money, be a manager, be a PR person, be a skipper, be a leader, you know, so all of these different things. And the leadership bit was harder for me because I don't like confrontation. And, you know, I had to
Speaker: had to force myself really to deal with issues that I didn't want to deal with and I still to a certain extent have that about my personality which I know people find very difficult to believe but so instead of talking to her and saying Mary Claude yeah I know you're my first mate but you know I'm I am the skipper you know I don't want you to take over my role as skipper I didn't and I just hoped it would all
Speaker: sort itself out you know but of course it's not going to just sort itself out so it got worse and worse and worse and you know so in the end when she defied my orders to take the full medical kit on the fast net and we had to pull out before we I mean we would have won our class that was very very frustrating so I sacked her and I
Speaker: There's only two things I regret about the Whitbread Round the World race. One is that we didn't win, which still bugs me. And the second thing is that I was so awful to her because if I'd got rid of her sooner, she might've been able to get on another boat.
Speaker: But I completely screwed that up for her. She then did the next whip bread on a boat called Heineken with some of the girls from Maiden. And we both became very good friends again. We made up and I apologise to her, quite rightly so. And we get on very well now and we both agree it was a very good thing that she did not do the whip bread on Maiden because we'd have probably killed each other as it is. What happened when she left was
Speaker: quite fortuitous because we ended up reforming the structure of the team, if you like, because what I'd done without realizing it is I created a male hierarchy because that was all I knew. So, you know, we had this pyramid, this hierarchy. Well, women don't work well like that, especially on boats. We like a flattened hierarchy or circular. And, you know, we,
Speaker: we tended to defer to each other quite a lot before the start. I mean, then you have to have a strong skipper that, you know, tells you to do what, you know, what you need to do. But, you know, sort of a democratic team up until you cross the start line is a great way for women to work. So in the end, it worked out really well, but it was more by luck than my judgment, I have to say. But we have gone full circle because Maiden, who is
Speaker: back in the land of the living is now in Hamble waiting for us to get rid of this awful situation we're going through at the moment and Mary Claude's looking after her for me. I love that that's brilliant it was when you said that when we were chatting that I thought right I really need to know this because girls in particular
Speaker: have friendship issues growing up and they're difficult sometimes and sometimes they get a bit out of control, girls get very emotional. I'm not saying that boys don't have this, I've got a girl and a boy and so I see I see it in both of them but girls in particular can find it super difficult to navigate those relationships when things aren't quite working. Having
Speaker: had all the experience that you've had and gone through all of that and I totally understand that I was a very bossy team leader at the beginning. I was 23 when I was given my first team to manage and I was known as really bossy and inflexible and I had to learn it. I had to go home every night and go
Speaker: I shouldn't have said it that way. It didn't work. I should have done more of this. And it took a while to become a good leader. I guess it does. But I think the qualities of a good leader are also the qualities of a good friend. So what's your take on friendship issues and how best to approach them when they go wrong? I don't think I have too many issues with girls as friends,
Speaker: growing up and apart from being bullied by girls, I think I have always gravitated towards, I mean, I've got great male friends, but my greatest friends are my female friends. And I have hammered that into my daughter throughout the whole of her life. Men may come and go.
Speaker: But your female friends are everything to you. They will be there for the whole of your life as long as you nurture them and be a good friend. And I have got the best girlfriends in the world. Someone said to me the other day, God, you've been on your own for 20 years. Do you ever think about getting remarried again? So I said,
Speaker: Not really, because A, I've got used to living on my own and I'm having a man around that's so messy and noisy and to pick up space as well. But of course the other thing is, you know, if I have the choice between a blind date and going out with my girlfriends...
Speaker: The girlfriends win every time. Yeah, it's easier. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm very lucky. I have got great friends and one of the things I've never really understood that got thrown in our faces when we were sort of putting, made them together, every time we got over a hurdle, it was like they throw something else at us. Here, have that. Have another hurdle. Have something else to get over.
Speaker: and when we proved everyone wrong on everything the parting shot literally when we crossed the start line was girls don't get on you'll be screaming and shouting and pulling each other's hair you'll be getting all getting off at the first stopover and I could never figure out where does that come from you know I
Speaker: I think, especially now, I see, you know, women are so supportive of each other now. You know, I do see that. And supporting girls as we're doing, we work with some wonderful female partners, actually, pretty much all the people we work with, not by choice, just because
Speaker: they happen to be good at what they do. So I've always despaired a little bit that there is this, you know, oh, girls don't get on because I think that's very unfair to young women who may, as you say, be struggling with friendship issues and school and peer pressure, all of these awful things that they have to deal with with the added nightmare of social media, which for girls is dragging them back into the dark ages. It's just the worst thing.
Speaker: that could happen to them. Having to deal with all of that and then being told of course girls don't get on. I think it's such a shame and I really hope we are sort of coming out of that attitude. I think we are as I say I see a lot more especially women's movements groups coming together rather than
Speaker: We used to see some 20, 30 years ago, well, this is my part of feminism. This is my part of female power. Yes, we were very protective of ourselves in our own arena. Absolutely. But I think now that's disappearing. I think women are looking at the world and going, OK,
Speaker: Well, you know, men have not done a great job, I'm sorry, I'm going to say, for the last 2000 years. So they've had a chance now, we're going to have to get together and sort it all out. So I have to say, along with some incredibly intelligent men who, you know, would be the first to admit that they're feminists, which I think is wonderful.
Speaker: I think the other thing that's changed is that men are part of the conversation now, whereas 30 years ago, they most certainly were not, they were either against it or couldn't be bothered to deal with it. Yes. And now you've got, you know, you've got the Women's March, you know, two million people marching, bigger than the Civil Rights Movement, you know, in 2016. And you've got
Speaker: men marching with placard say, I'm marching for my wife, for my daughter, for my sister, for my mum, you know, and I love that. And I love the fact that these groups are coming together, the Women's March, Me Too, He For She, you know, all of these extraordinary people coming together to make the changes we need in the world. And also going back to something that you said about young people, you know, not
Speaker: waiting for things to change. Look at the young people we have got in the world now. Someone said to me the other day who inspires you, I said, well, actually all of these young people, like you've got Greta Thunberg, you've got Vanessa Vash, Emma Gonzalez, all these extraordinary young women, I guess, mostly, I'm sure there are amazing young men out there as well.
Speaker: I tend to follow on Twitter, these young women, all fighting for something and, you know, for their right to live in a world that isn't being destroyed by my generation, which is something I'm so ashamed of. Yes, I feel the same. And, you know, it's not just Greta and it's all the girls and boys getting behind them who feel so passionately. Our dinner table conversations.
Speaker: are riotous and often end in somebody angrily storming out but that is because they are so so passionate and they want us as their parents and their older generation to understand and they're not afraid.
Speaker: to tell us that that's what they want and to try and make us understand. And they are making us understand. And that is massively inspiring. I think you're right. And you've said, in fact, I'll ask you this question now. I've heard you say before that ages 15 to 18 give you your life opportunities. Tell me what you mean by that.
Speaker: Well, studies show that obviously the first seven years of your life are the most important because they make you who you are, and we all kind of know that. But girls in developed countries often drop out of school at the age of 15. So it's interesting. I mean, we've learned. I've learned so much about girls education in the last five years. It's been
Speaker: a steep learning curve. So what we found is as we sell maiden around the world raising funds for girls education and working within communities supporting them because it takes a community to get a girl into school. But it also takes a community to keep a girl in school. And so what we've discovered in is in developing countries, we're working with communities to get girls into school, to get rid of the barriers and hurdles and obstacles which prevent them from having an education.
Speaker: But in developed countries, I mean, Britain and America had dreadful statistics for girls dropping out of school at the age of 15. And studies show that if you keep girls in school between the ages of 15 and 18, their life choices, their life opportunities increase exponentially. So we're sort of having two different battles here. And I know from my own experience, which is one of the reasons I am so passionate about
Speaker: you know, girls remaining in education until they're 18 is I meant it when I said I didn't succeed because I was expelled. I succeeded despite being expelled because when I was made bankrupt in 2005, I had to get a proper job for the first time in my life at the age of 43. And I was qualified to do nothing. And, you know, I didn't even know how to write a CV. And so I, I pretty much had to start from ground zero.
Speaker: at the age of 43, without an education, an education would have been so useful at that point in my life, with my mother's voice ringing in my ears, you know, it's always good to have a backup, which I didn't have. So I do believe passionately in education for girls. And we know from so many facts and figures from UNESCO, from UNICEF, from the World Development Organization, that
Speaker: We can improve almost every single situation in the world by educating girls. If we had total equality in education, we could eliminate world poverty. We could get rid of the spread of viruses. When the study was done, it was HIV and AIDS, but look at what we have now. You educate a girl, you educate her family, her community, her village.
Speaker: you increase the socioeconomic status of her country. People around Educator Girls are happier and that's a fact. You know, I'm in all these extraordinary figures. So yeah, that's why we do what we do with Maiden and I'm so passionate about it. Yeah. So tell me about what Maiden has achieved so far and what's next.
Speaker: so we we started our world tour we completely restored her during 2016 and 2017 and then in November 2018 literally as the film came out maiden
Speaker: Tada! Made her appearance. It was brilliant. So exciting. Yeah, it was. So we started a three -year world tour covering 33 ,000 miles. We initially were going to be going to over 30 destinations in 20 countries. That's actually increased. And what we do is make themselves into port and we have already worked, no, identify the community with whom we're going to be working.
Speaker: We work with yacht clubs who are so fantastic at raising money for the different programs that we fund all over the world.
Speaker: And what I love about York clubs as well is they're often run by very powerful women. And you know, once you say to them, you know, we need to raise money for girls education, they're like, right. They're on a mission and you know, job done. We have hundreds of
Speaker: Girls down to the boat which is total chaos and absolutely wonderful pandemonium But we're showing them you know maiden Shows what a girl can do if just one person believes in her and you know, I was such a screw -up and I
Speaker: I did Maiden and that's the message. And she's, she's a physical, they can touch her, they can get on her. You know, it's not a teacher saying to them, oh, you can do anything if you put your mind to it. And you know, which a 15 year old is going, whatever.
Speaker: And I see these girls looking at the crew. We've got this great all -female crew now on the boat. They're so awesome. They're so much better than we were at that age. And I know they're thinking, I could do that, you know. Yeah, it's inspiring. Oh, it's just wonderful. We have screenings for schools and the crew speak afterwards, which again is very, very powerful. And, you know, we've raised a significant amount of money for the programs that we work with.
Speaker: We've come to a bit of a halt, obviously, in March. We had to stop what we were doing, had to get all the crew home. My daughter, who runs our events, as I said, was literally on the last flight out of Antigua, which is where we were racing. And then we managed to get Maiden home. So she's sitting in Hamble waiting for us to resume in April next year, I hope, with a news for you at World Tour.
Speaker: Fingers crossed. I'm going to just say it for the benefit of all the people that are going to be listening to this podcast in 10 years time. We're recording this during just coming out of lockdown but still struggling with coronavirus pandemic stoppages shall we say. So that's the context around which we're talking and it's really relevant.
Speaker: Tracy, where can people find you, read more about the Maiden Factor, support to the Maiden Factor, watch the film, tell me all the places. Okay, so if you go to our website which is www .themaidenfactor .org you can do a number of things, you can donate which is always very much appreciated.
Speaker: or you can go to our charity shop where we've got lots of really great made memorabilia and you can volunteer, you can also probably from November onwards we're going to put up, we did have an application page on the website which is not there at the moment but November December should be back up with our hopefully new schedule
Speaker: And you can apply to Sail on Maiden. You can do a leg, either as a guest, if you make a donation to our charity, obviously. And we are allowing men to sail on Maiden for their first time.
Speaker: As long as they have a large sum of money to our charity. And we also take, you can apply as a young sailor if you need to get some miles under your belt. We do apprenticeships. We have this extraordinary crew who mentor young women who come sailing on us in every leg. We usually take about two young women so that they can get experience and miles and
Speaker: There's loads of different ways that you can follow what we're doing on Facebook and Made In Factor on Facebook and on Twitter and Instagram and as I say go to our website. And you Tracy yourself are very prolific on Twitter I see you every day there so people can come and chat so you do answer. Yeah.
Speaker: Before I finish, I've got two questions. You talk a lot about mental health for teenagers, but specifically for girls and young women. What's the one message that you'd like them to embed to take care of their own mental health as they become adults? I think asking for help is the most important piece of advice anyone can ever give another human being. It's interesting that what the film did for me was it reminded me
Speaker: what we've done. And I think we underestimated, you know, women are the world's worst, you know, this imposter syndrome thing that we all have, you know, oh, it was nothing. No, no, it really wasn't. Anyway, it was my daughter, actually, at the age of 19, who said to me, Mum, what is that thing you do when people come up to you and say, I think you're amazing? And you go, Oh, no, what is that?
Speaker: She was embarrassing. And it's rude. She said, what you should be doing is saying, thank you so much. I'm really proud of what we achieved. I thought, I've bred a monster. She's right. And so I did start appreciating what we've done.
Speaker: But what the film also did was after the screenings, people would ask what happened after Maiden. And I've never really spoken about that until a couple of years ago. And I remember watching the royals, the young royals heads together. I think the mental health charity they started and the fact that sports people started talking about mental health. And I for the first time said, well, actually, what happened after Maiden was I had a nervous breakdown, quite a
Speaker: quite a massive breakdown, actually. And I disappeared for two years, which I think is why a lot of people don't know about Maiden. I mean, I just left the stage and I became a recluse, went back to Wales and stayed there. And that's because I didn't ask for help. And I would say to any young person, you know, there's no shame at all in needing help.
Speaker: and struggling we every single human being in the world struggles at some point and I love the fact that sports stars are now coming out you know these people that think are very strong and powerful and indestructible saying no I've had mental health problems I've had issues you know I've I've had difficulties and so yeah so my advice speak to someone
Speaker: Yeah. It's very easy to look strong on the outside when there's all sorts going on on the inside and actually you're not coping as well as it looks like you're coping to people. I know then that you're going to have some good advice for me. What's your best tip for me as the mum of two teenagers
Speaker: Oh, this is dangerous territory. Oh, God, I gotta hide now. No, no, no. I mean, I, you see, I don't think I am the right person to give advice because I was so lucky that my daughter was so perfect. I mean,
Speaker: I think she had a tantrum when she was about two years old. She was a perfect child. She smiled and laughed, never cried. I was getting almost a full night's sleep when she was about eight months old. Other women hated me. I had to lie. I had to say, oh, gosh, she cried all night. Oh, I'm so tired. None of it was true. And I was visiting Sally from Maiden. She lives on the Isle of Arran.
Speaker: And then we walked up this huge mountain right at the top of this mountain. Mac, who is two years old, decided to have her first and only ever tantrum, which is perfect because Sal just went, Sal's great. She went, I'll just leave her there. You know, we'll sit here. We'll have a picnic two hours. I mean, if I'd been in a supermarket or somewhere else, I would have I would have given up. I would have given in. I would have, you know, ruined it all. But I think she learned pretty much from that point that that wasn't going to work. And I've just been so
Speaker: incredibly lucky. I'm so sorry that I don't have some amazing piece of advice. I know some of my friends who are especially during lockdown
Speaker: You know, it's so unfair for young people to be locked down with your parents is just not right, you know. I know that so many people have had a tough time in lockdown, but I keep on saying the teenagers have had some of the worst times. I know. My daughter's 16. This summer, she was so looking forward to basically her first summer of real independence. She was off to different places. She booked concert tickets and paid for them herself.
Speaker: You know, she was doing it and then it all stopped and she had to sit in the house with us. Oh, it's awful. Not what they want to be doing, is it? And it's being minimised by the press and by the government now, actually. A friend of mine actually wrote something in Telegraph today.
Speaker: It was Matt Hancock who said, don't kill your granny to the university students. Honestly, these kids have had the toughest time. Then you load all that on them, all that guilt tripping, not okay. Sorry, I've taken over and gone off on a total rant now, but you - No, I'm with you 100%. Yeah, you are absolutely right. Well, you know what? Maybe.
Speaker: maybe the best tip when things are not working out with your teenagers comes from your daughter's tantrum and that actually it's best to just let them feel it out for a bit until they settle and there goes my dog to the postman for the third time in this podcast
Speaker: She's not barking, mine goes absolutely crazy. He's scratching at the door but um yeah maybe it's just to let them burn it out a little bit and then sit down and talk to them about what's what's causing the problems and ask them to talk as you said before. Yeah absolutely you know communication is what's the key to everything.
Speaker: It is. On that note, I think that's a good place to stop Tracy. Thank you so much for your time and your fascinating story and wonderful live tips. Thanks so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to meet you.
Speaker: Ah, wasn't that just a brilliant chat? I love Tracy's story. Honestly, if you haven't seen Maiden yet, I would definitely recommend it. It's on Amazon Prime at the moment and it's a brilliant watch.
Speaker: And I love those last couple of tips from Tracy. To parents, let kids get out of their system the things that are winding them up and causing them to throw tantrums, be that a toddler tantrum or that teenage chaos that sometimes erupts from seemingly nowhere. There's a reason, let them get that out of their system.
Speaker: and then get them to talk and teens ask for help I know you think you're invincible every teenager that's ever been alive has thought they were invincible and didn't need their mum and dad or their friends or any professional help but you do everyone does there is no shame in it just ask for help when you need it
Speaker: If you've enjoyed this episode of the Teenage Kicks podcast, I'd love it if you'd consider subscribing or giving me a rating and a review on iTunes. It really helps other people to find these amazing conversations about teenage life. There are lots more episodes so have a browse and see if anything else strikes a chord for your family or for someone you know and share it with them.
Speaker: There are more parenting teens tips on my blog actually mommy too so do head over there if you love a blog. I'll put a link in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. Come back next week when I'll be chatting with another brilliant guest about the fun and games of racing teens.
