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Ep. 98: Childhood trauma: The shame of being different
176 Plays8 days ago
Welcome to series 9 of the Teenage Kicks podcast, and a brand new set of brave conversations with people who had something difficult to go through in their teenage years.
This episode features Jon Wilson Cooper, who - through his career choice as a counsellor - has explored his own relationship with his mental health at length, including how he feels about having grown up with a sibling with disabilities.
We discuss everything from the embarrassment of being seen in public with his deaf brother, who had behavioural difficulties as a result of his disability, the jealousy of the attention given to his brother, and the shame of feeling this way.
Jon says there's a difference between shame and guilt, and the challenge for our teenagers - and for us as their parents - is to reject the shame (which is paralysing) whilst managing the guilt effectively.
Who is Jon Wilson Cooper?
Jon is a qualified psychotherapist, trainer, and organisational consultant with over 38 years’ experience of helping people with their mental health. He is the Founder and Director of The Albany Centre for personal and professional development, which is a counselling training institute and therapy. He also runs Mosaic Counselling Services CIC (a low-cost counselling service) in St Albans, Hertfordshire. He has worked in the UK, America, and India in a variety of settings with a wide range of clients, including those with addiction issues, mental health problems and histories of personal trauma. Jon has a special interest in helping individuals raise awareness of their blocks to emotional well-being and making positive life choices.
Jon is also a TEDx speaker whose talk on why people hate was chosen as one of the top TEDx talks of 2024. Watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su-0oL1QdHM
Jon welcomes connection - you can find him here:
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a counsellor, a parent coach, and a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email helen@actuallymummy.co.uk.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr's policy page
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Episode produced by Michael J Cunningham.
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Transcript
Guilt vs. Shame Explained
00:00:00
Speaker
I think one of the things that people muddle up is guilt and shame. So guilt is I've done something wrong. I feel bad about something I've done, but I can do something about that. I can apologize, not do it again. and I can restore in a way. Shame runs a lot deeper, which is I am wrong. There's something faulty about me.
Season 9 Introduction and Focus
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to Season 9 of the Teenage Kicks podcast. I'm your host, writer and psychotherapist Helen Wills. Can you believe it? When I started this podcast, there was nothing much online for parents about teenage mental health. Still less about how to cope with our own anxieties when our teenagers are going through difficult stuff.
Podcast Evolution and Counseling Journey
00:00:46
Speaker
Since then, I've spoken to over 100 guests about struggles they had in their teenage years, how they've coped since, and the advice they'd offer to young adults and their parents today. We've talked about all the difficult things, from anxiety, to being diagnosed with an illness, or getting kicked out of school. Spoiler alert, it all involves a bit of anxiety.
00:01:11
Speaker
and many of my guests have told me the conversations have felt like therapy. It's what led me to think about training as a therapist and I'm happy to say that I'm now a fully qualified counsellor. I help my clients with anxiety and depression, loss, grief and bereavement, clinical illness, trauma and relationship issues and especially parents who are finding the teenage years tricky.
Counseling Services Announcement
00:01:39
Speaker
If you think counselling might help you, you can find me at HelenWills.com. That's Helen Wills W I double L S dot com. I offer a free initial conversation to see if we're a good fit.
Series 9 Topics Preview
00:01:54
Speaker
Now, on to Series 9, and I have some fantastic guests for you. We're going to talk about what it's like to grow up with a disabled sibling, the teenagers who are embracing a sober adolescence, how to support a child who's questioning their gender or sexuality, and teens who are people pleasers.
Introducing John Wilson Cooper
00:02:15
Speaker
Yes, they might be ballbreakers at home, but lots of teens feel under pressure to perform for other people. And they need our help to help them stop, says one of my guests. Today is a treat for me because I get to hear more about my guest on a personal level, having known him for three years as my counselling tutor. We're going to talk about what it's like growing up with a sibling with a learning disability.
00:02:42
Speaker
John Wilson Cooper is a qualified psychotherapist, a trainer and an organisational consultant with over 38 years of experience of working closely with humans and their emotions.
John's Career and TEDx Talk
00:02:54
Speaker
He's the founder and director of the Albany Centre in St Albans.
00:02:58
Speaker
which is a counselling training institute and therapy centre, as well as Mosaic counselling services, which is a low-cost counselling service also in Switzerland. He's also a TEDx speaker whose talk this year has had 28,500 views in the first three days of going live on the TEDx website. He talks about why people hate and how we all do it.
00:03:27
Speaker
John has worked all over the world with a wide range of clients, including those with addiction issues, mental health problems and histories of personal trauma.
Personal Nature of the Podcast
00:03:36
Speaker
He has a special interest in helping individuals raise awareness of their blocks to emotional wellbeing and making positive life choices. John, welcome to the podcast. Hello. Thank you for having me.
00:03:51
Speaker
Oh, no, it's so nice for me. I'm so excited because it's so nice for me to talk to you on a more personal level in my space because normally I'm sitting in a room which is entirely created by you, although I think you're probably going to tell me it's co-created by everybody in the room.
John's Childhood and Shame
00:04:07
Speaker
um And now I'm kind of in... Well, I've grown up a lot in the last three years, but i was I've always been in the space of, well, this is the guy in charge and I need to behave myself. Whereas here, I'm in charge.
00:04:20
Speaker
Revenge ah put me on the spot. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's lovely to be here. And um yeah, i mean i'm I'm really up for the conversation. Fantastic. Because um actually, before we really dig into it, um one of the things that I was nervous about talking to you on here is that this is a very personal podcast. And I do ask my guests to go deep and talk about really tough things.
00:04:49
Speaker
And you have always, to me, been someone who's been incredibly private and that's something that I know is born... Well, it's born out of lots of things and you can tell us about it, but I know one of those things is that as a counselor, it's about the client, it's not about you. um yes So what's it like to have to come here and talk about your own personal stuff and put it out in the world?
Sharing Personal Experiences
00:05:17
Speaker
Well, in some ways, the same principle applies. I mean, as a trainer and as a therapist, I do occasionally ah share personal stuff, but it's with a lot of consideration about whether or not it's useful to the other person. So I sometimes do disclose as a trainer, um but I do think long and hard about the impact of that on people, whether it's going to um maybe disable them or whether it facilitates a conversation.
00:05:43
Speaker
um So I do think personal experience, mine and students' personal experience is the richest learning there is. So I'm certainly up for sharing. um And I think the podcast is the same. I think if my experience is actually useful to people, um if it's useful to parents and maybe teenagers that are going through similar experiences that I had as a child,
00:06:09
Speaker
um That's a good thing.
Teenagers and Shame
00:06:11
Speaker
um and you know i've I've moved beyond feeling any kind of shame about my experience. I think shame was a big part of my teenage years, um but i've I've done sufficient work, I think, on myself to not carry that shame anymore about my experience. so I'm up for answering questions about what happened for me.
00:06:33
Speaker
Awesome. um We will talk about Shane because I think that's something that, I mean, mostly this is parents who are listening to this podcast, but sometimes we do have young people.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I'm not sure that most people know that what they're experiencing is shame in these situations. So it might be quite illuminating.
Family Dynamics and Neglect
00:06:54
Speaker
John, just to get us started, tell us a little bit about what it was like growing up in your house and particularly as you came into those adolescent years.
00:07:07
Speaker
Well, to give it some context, um my brother was born six years before me, and and he was strangled by the umbilical cord as he was being born, ah which cut off the oxygen plate supply to his brain, obviously. um My parents were told he probably wouldn't survive the night, um and then they said, the doctor said, if he does, he'll be fine, but it's unlikely he's going to survive the night.
00:07:32
Speaker
So my parents, um they got him baptized, they were Christian at the time, um and they kind of braced themselves, I think, for him to die. ah that didn't The doctors didn't put him into an incubator, so i mean there was a lot of negligence involved around his birth.
00:07:47
Speaker
and Apparently, it's fairly common to be born with the umbilical cord around your neck, and it just needs to be dealt with rapidly, and the child needs to go into an incubator. Those things didn't happen. so The result of that was, I think, a very large part of his brain was was killed off, a very large part, um and he did survive.
00:08:08
Speaker
My parents were very slow to recognize that he wasn't hitting developmental milestones. I think in that era, the babies weren't being checked on to the same extent. um Nowadays, you you so you see a medical practitioner fairly frequently when you've got a baby. So my brother wasn't properly diagnosed for a while.
00:08:29
Speaker
um So yes he had a severe learning disability i would say probably the mental age of a two year old um and real limited ability to communicate even.
00:08:42
Speaker
So ah that was what I was born into, this brother that was six years older, but I probably overtook him when I was about two in terms of capability. um And it restricts everything. um There's this concept that when you have a disability in the family, the family's disabled.
00:09:01
Speaker
um And so that was very much kind of my experience that we were different to other families. um And we were restricted. So other the things that other families would take for granted, um we wouldn't do. ah So we didn't go out to events. We didn't do very much. My family were quite unsocial. um And where shame comes into that is is being very, very aware of that difference.
00:09:29
Speaker
um And so thinking, I think as a child, that it reflected on me, that I was somehow different to anybody else. um And kind of wanting to hide. And probably the most difficult experience as a child was so being dragged around the shops on a Saturday as a family. my My parents were very keen that we should all go shopping into the center of town every Saturday. um And as a I think it was just that was what we did. So that was probably the only thing we did as a family where we went out into the world. um And that was so embarrassing because my brother would have tantrums. So it was a big fight to even leave the house. And then he would just walk up the street talking to himself, sometimes shouting to himself, waving his arms, directing traffic.
00:10:22
Speaker
All sorts of stuff, which you can imagine is absolutely mortifying when you're 13 and you're trying to be cool. yeah It's like, oh, I really hope I don't bump into anybody from school.
00:10:33
Speaker
yeah ah happened um When I was very young, yes, when I was in primary school, I remember another kid saying to me, oh, your brother's a bit odd. Um, and why is he wearing a radio? Cause he had, he had a hearing aid and and one of the really old fashioned ones with leads and everything. Oh, cool kid.
00:10:55
Speaker
And it was an odd experience because I was absolutely mortified by the question and actually looking back on it, I think it was perfectly innocent. Yes. You know, he wasn't making fun of me or, or of my brother actually, he was just asking a question. But I think I had a heightened sense of being judged. Um, and I think that really stuck in my mind. And it's like, I really don't want anyone to see my brother or yeah, to, to see me with him.
00:11:21
Speaker
Right, well that's what that's the sense I was getting that yes it's embarrassing, it's awkward, it's difficult um and it's about your brother but I had a kind of image in my head of you hiding behind him as you were out there in the centre of town.
00:11:40
Speaker
I think I probably would have hid all together, not behind him. I think if I could have darted down an alley and not been seen at all, that would have been my preference. um The difficulty was I think my parents were so stressed by the whole thing that they had no patience for me at all. So me protesting or wanting to not go with them into town,
00:12:07
Speaker
I think would have been quite dangerous. They were at the end of their tether quite often. and that That really is the feeling of my childhood. They had ah no spare capacity. um yeah Their attitude towards me was, well, you're fine. you right we've got to We've got to look after him. You're fine.
00:12:28
Speaker
um And that's really stayed with me or all my life is that while you're okay, you don't need anything, you're fine. And that's something I've carried really. Yeah, what did you do with those feelings if you couldn't voice them to your parents who knew you weren't going to get the response that you were looking for?
00:12:46
Speaker
I think I just kind of buried them. I think I i really took on their attitudes, which is you're making a f fuss about nothing. right I remember my mum saying that a lot. Oh, you're making a fuss about nothing. um you know Stop moaning.
00:13:00
Speaker
ah you know stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. ah yeah now Yes, there's really intolerance and I think, you know, I really kind of adapted to that and just shut down and switched off and just had very low expectations of anybody really caring about me um and just getting kind of getting on with it.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah. To quite extreme extents actually. um There's a few incidents in my childhood where they were quite extreme that I realized I still wasn't going to get what I needed. um My first one was when I was six. ah A kid in class gave me a piggyback and I fell over the top and hit my the top of my head on solid ground, which split my head and there's blood everywhere. um and What happened is we went into the school office, blood all over my shirt. um They called my mom and they said, you know he needs to go to hospital, he needs stitches. She eventually turns up at the school. I'm sitting there really distressed and she says, how am I going to get this blood out of your shirt? What a pain in the And wasting my time, we've now got to go to the hospital. And she was so cross that she had to take me to A and&E, and that she had a bloody shirt to deal with. um And I remember consciously thinking, right, that's it. I'm never going to cry with her again. um you know it's just She's not ever going to give me what I need.
00:14:27
Speaker
um And that was the first of a number of incidents. I had a similar one where I broke my arm. And my mum again said I was making a fuss about nothing and wasting time. um and Because the the first time I broke my arm, it was cracking my elbow. um And the surgeon said, actually,
Parental Denial and Idealization
00:14:44
Speaker
we can't put it in a cast because it's your elbow. We have to put it in a sling for a few weeks. And she said, well, it's not even properly broken. You didn't get a cast.
00:14:53
Speaker
r So yeah just it it, your emotional needs. Absolutely. Yeah. Literally making a fuss about nothing, whatever it was. Because you had so much else that was that felt bigger to hurt, right? I think so. Yeah. I think, you know, and and they they were similar. I mean, my dad was warmer, but I think he still had the same attitude. It was still very much like, well, he's the one with the problems. Your brother is, you know, yeah needs needs a lot of help.
00:15:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost like, as you were talking about these things, I was thinking, these are quite normal things. I mean, they're fairly extreme normal things, but they're quite normal things that kids do go through. I had a friend, I was in A&E once or twice as a kid. Most kids are, my kids have been. So for them, I suppose it must have felt like, well, this is normal, this is childhood stuff compared to what was going on with your brother, which was not normal at all.
00:15:51
Speaker
But for you as a child with this going on it was huge because the pain the drama of it all.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, and the complete lack of empathy, I think. um um mean The other thing that made it difficult is stay they had stacks and stacks of denial. so As well as saying he's quite needy, they they also said, oh, he's not that bad. He's not as bad as some. They would compare me to the him that he would have been if he hadn't been disabled.
00:16:24
Speaker
So they had this fantasy of him being incredibly bright. He happens to be quite quite reasonable arithmetic. He does ah basic sums. And they said, ah, he's got a talent for maths. If he'd have been normal, he probably would have been a maths genius and would have gone off to university to do maths. I remember them saying this. So then I was being compared to this fantasy brother that was incredibly capable.
00:16:52
Speaker
Right. Oh, there's something in that about compensating for what your child has and wishing it were different, but reassuring yourself about how it could have been different, would have been different.
Handling Difficult Situations
00:17:09
Speaker
Is that it? I mean, it's either that or it's
00:17:14
Speaker
beating yourself up about how different it could have been. It sounds like they were trying to put a positive spin on everything to, as you say, deny that it was as bad as it was to feel better about.
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, they they never spoke to me about how hard it was for them, um what it was like for them, um which in turn kind of denied me the right to talk about that. So I don't remember them ever talking to me about what my experience was like and how it was hard for me having a brother like this.
00:17:50
Speaker
And and the the first time I had that was actually an aunt ah was was talking to me and she said, oh this must be really hard for you. And that was so significant it really stays in my mind. That was the first adult that actually acknowledged what the impact on me would be.
00:18:09
Speaker
But as I say, that was kind of tied up with they're not really allowing themselves to talk about the impact, about how hard this was. and That's an interesting put moment to just bring in but the dilemma that I think parents have when there's something difficult in their lives. I remember, well, i don't ah do I didn't know this at the time. I know it now looking back, but my parents went through a stage when we were quite poor.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I only know that because they never spoke to me about it. I only know that because I look at what our diet was like for a few years when I was a child. And when it noticeably and very suddenly significantly improved, um they never ever mentioned it to me. And I've always thought that was a good thing and I've i've i've um been quite impressed by them for that.
Teaching Resilience Through Adversity
00:19:04
Speaker
Because no um as a parent, I've often wondered how much to tell my own kids about how how difficult I'm finding life, things in the family. um ah And I think parents wrestle with themselves all the time about how much to let how much to hide from their kids. What is your take? on I mean, I know what your take is, but I want you to tell the listeners,
00:19:33
Speaker
your take on that? I think one of our jobs as parents is to actually teach our children how to deal with adversity. um And that's that's a really important task that if we shield our kids from the painful realities of life, they don't get to learn. They don't get to learn from our experience and our struggles. A case in point was I remember we had a cat guy When my daughter was very young, she must have been about four years old, four or five years old, and we we were told that the cat was on the side of the road, having been hit by a car. So me and my partner went to pick up the cat and brought it home, and my daughter was was with us.
00:20:20
Speaker
Um, and we buried the cat and my wife was distraught. She was absolutely sobbing. And we talked about it afterwards and thought, actually, that's quite a good thing that my daughter saw this. I mean, she was ah obviously upset too, but we were able to talk about it and say, this is a really sad thing and it's really okay to cry about this really sad thing. Um, so my daughter had this kind of lesson of, um, yeah, painful things happen.
00:20:50
Speaker
um And we survived them and it's okay to have feelings about it So I think I understand the desire to protect but I think what that can do is it makes things secretive um And kids think oh, it's not okay to talk about this um It's not okay to have feelings about this because my parents don't they're the role models so if they don't talk about this either it's not a problem or ah It's so awful that it can't be talked about. um and I think that's the that's an unconscious message that gets transmitted. It's like, this must be terrible if they're not going to talk about it and we have to keep it a secret and not tell anybody. and I think that's the beginnings, ah that's part of shame, is having an experience that is taboo.
Feeling Different and Shame
00:21:42
Speaker
There's something terribly, terribly wrong about this.
00:21:45
Speaker
And so I got the message, I think, growing up. The fact that they never talked about how difficult it was having my brother meant that that clearly was not something we should ever contemplate. um And I think that's what was going on for them. it They couldn't go there. It was just too awful to talk about.
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah, so you talked about shame. um and know yeah I want to kind of pick your brains on what that feels and feels like and get you to just explain, if you will, for the listeners, anyone who's in this situation as um as a parent or as an individual who's experienced it in within their family.
00:22:29
Speaker
Because we're not just talking about children with deafness, we're talking about children with anything that is noticeably different about them, anything that is more challenging than, I'm doing air quotes for those who are just listening, the norm.
00:22:46
Speaker
um
00:22:49
Speaker
What does shame feel like? How does it manifest? How do people know that shame is what they are experiencing in this situation, met maybe as parents or as siblings?
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah. um I think one of the things that people muddle up is guilt and shame. So guilt is I've done something wrong. I feel bad about something I've done, but I can do something about that. I can apologize, not do it again. I can restore in a way. Shame runs a lot deeper, which is I am wrong. There's something faulty about me.
00:23:24
Speaker
and and I think what's really important for us as human beings is to belong. Belonging is essential to our survival. we We don't exist in a vacuum, we need each other. So we've got this very deep drive to belong. Belong to a group, belong to a family, have people in their lives, have connections.
00:23:44
Speaker
and I think anything that threatens that possibility of belonging becomes problematic. so In my case, being in a disabled family meant I felt different to my peers. I felt different to all the people I was in school with. I didn't know anybody else that had a disabled sibling. I felt different And that difference translates, I think, in a child to, there's something wrong with me. I don't belong here. um And people are going to discover there's something wrong with me. So I think the incident with the, would see my brother with the hearing aid is like, oh, I've been found. I've been discovered as being different and wrong. and So that's, I think that's the origins of shame.
Split Identity and Communication
00:24:31
Speaker
And then what happens with that is that we then want to hide that part of ourselves. So when I was talking about going into town with my brother, what I wanted most in the world was hide my family's disability. I wanted to hide my brother. I didn't want people to know that I was disabled in the sense. So that that's one level of it is ah hiding difference and not talking about it. um And that's kind of stayed with me quite a lot. um It's something I don't talk about an awful lot. um And I remember somebody a few years ago saying to me, you never use his name. So it's always just like my brother when I do talk about him.
00:25:17
Speaker
Yeah, which is kind of interesting so that there was a kind of disconnect in me. Yeah, I realized that quite ah yeah i live two lives. I was split. um And it was interesting listening to people that come from two cultures ah who have a similar experience that, you know, if you're English Asian, for instance, there was one of the speakers at TED this year in St. Albans who was talking about the split between her Asian family and her very white identity in the outside world. yeah And that really resonated with me because I think I did the same. I had my outside life and my friends in school and very much a kind of a whole personality that was John in the outside world. yeah And then there was John in home. And the other thing the other speaker spoke about which resonated was how mortified I would have been for the two worlds to meet.
00:26:13
Speaker
yeah I didn't want the outside world to come into my home. I didn't want friends to come into my house. um And I didn't want my house to go and interact with the outside world. So I think that's a a strong factor with shame, that when we feel shame, we actually want to hide. We want to split off and deny that part of ourselves. If possible, make it not exist.
00:26:38
Speaker
you know so I think that's going to resonate with quite a lot of people, because i think I actually think that a lot of teenagers do a little bit of that anyway, as as we all grow up and want to separate from our very embarrassing parents. Your parents are so embarrassing. Yeah, I think families with um with children who have got something different and challenging, ah ah that's going to land really significantly for them, I think.
00:27:08
Speaker
um What do you think? o
00:27:14
Speaker
I've got three questions in my head. I'm going to go
Neglect in Families with Special Needs
00:27:17
Speaker
with this one. Have you have you spoken to your parents since as an adult now about what happened and how you felt?
00:27:27
Speaker
ah Very little. i mean they They both died quite a few years ago now, so um mean the opportunity is gone. um and I left home while I was still at school, which means that ah those there was a kind of limit to my relationship with my parents, actually. I think it was it goes very deep and very far-reaching.
00:27:49
Speaker
that I didn't have a open communication with them. um Yeah, I'm certainly not talking about my brother. um I did have quite quite a row actually with my dad once which was similar to what you're asking. They were experimenting with my brother going into respite care. and this just said They moved to North Wales which is why I left home because they moved to North Wales while I was still at school and I stayed in this neck of the woods.
00:28:21
Speaker
um So in North Wales, I went to visit them and they were trying out West Bike Care for my brother. um So he would go into a care home for a week and come out again. And it happened to coincide with when I was up there that we were going to pick him up.
00:28:38
Speaker
So we went to this care home to pick him up, and in the care home, in the living room, there was a woman who was almost horizontal in a wheelchair, ah one of these kind of reclining ones, who was pretty much totally disabled. And the whole time we were there, she was screaming, just screamed and screamed and screamed, just made all this noise the whole time.
00:29:02
Speaker
And as we came away, and I was sitting in the car with my parents, um I said, it makes you question whether or not her quality of life is worth it, whether you know she would have been better off not not being alive, really. And my dad completely lost his temper. He says, you can't question that. You can't say that. It's not for us to decide. And I thought, oh, I really hit a nerve there.
00:29:32
Speaker
And clearly, that was something he couldn't even contemplate that, you know, that, say, euthanasia would be an option, or even termination, you know, the idea of terminating a baby if you believed that they were going to be severely disabled.
00:29:49
Speaker
Um, so, so that was, that's probably the only experience that I can remember that I kind of raised the subject about what an awful life. And ah in a sense, I was kind of suggesting, wouldn't everybody be better off if this disabled person wasn't here, which, which sounds really cool, but actually the quality of life for everybody concerned was absolutely awful. Severely disabled person that just screams all day.
00:30:20
Speaker
So I think that was a bit of a warning shot that, okay, I can't really talk to them about this. Well, yet again, and that's what was going running through my mind as you were talking about it. Yet again, you can't talk about your opinion on any of it. And ah i'm I'm imagining, I mean, you said that they were a very Christian, so of course that's that touches a nerve for them, but I'm also imagining that there was an implication there in his mind that if she shouldn't exist, should your brother exist, which is quite hard to take? Yes.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yes, i'd think I think it was something that they couldn't contemplate, really. um They just wouldn't go there. Because I think what it also does is it means acknowledging how awful this all is. Yes. Which is the thing that they never did. No, they were just avoiding knowing how awful it was. so Absolutely. Yeah, which I think then became a gag to me. It was like, okay, that's, you know, it's off, you know, we can't do that. Off table again. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. The reason I asked that question is because I wonder what your advice would be to parents who are wrestling with this kind of situation in their homes.
00:31:40
Speaker
I would say, i mean it it sounds pretty obvious, but it's it takes work, and that is don't forget the other child if there's another child in this dynamic. I've recently, just ah two weeks ago, I joined a siblings group.
00:31:56
Speaker
for siblings with ah ah who have got a sibling with a but ah ah disability of some kind. um And I think there was quite a lot of commonality within the group about the disabled sibling always coming first. um And all of us were sort of touching upon self-neglect, really, that we've all been raised to put our sibling first and ignore our own needs.
00:32:25
Speaker
Right. And so I think yeah we have to be quite proactive as parents when one child is demanding a lot of our attention, a lot of input. And I do acknowledge how hard this is, that that can be all encompassing, all consuming. But if there's another child, what about them?
00:32:45
Speaker
They're still a child. They still have the needs of a child where they need care and support and they've got their emotional crises as well as any physical problems they might have.
Advice for Parents
00:32:57
Speaker
They're working really hard to see them as separate and distinct and having their own needs um and being treated as special. One of the things that drew me to the siblings group was years ago I came across them in America and they started off, they were set up to support children.
00:33:15
Speaker
who had siblings with disability and they would do, they would do summer camps for these kids and take them out and treat them, you know, treat them to some respite themselves. You know, like let's all go and do something fun and that you're important too. Right. It seemed that that actually quickly evolved into really realizing that those kids needed emotional support. So they would start doing groups with these kids and actually really taking the effort to talk to them about what life was like for them.
00:33:45
Speaker
which I was really inspired by. And I thought, oh, that's fabulous. you know I think this needs to happen. So yeah, there's a long answer, but it's like, can you treat the other child as special from time to time?
00:34:00
Speaker
You know, it's a bit like, uh, I've had this experience myself as a parent is having a second child and realizing the first child can be losing something in that process. absolutely Yeah, they still need to be, they still need to feel like they're special. Yeah. So, so with my kids, I quite enjoy me and my wife going out with my older daughters sometimes on our own when, when my son's away or he's, he's at school or something.
00:34:27
Speaker
So that she gets it still gets a bit of that time that being special you know that she's important and as I say I really get how hard that can be if you've got a child with extra needs.
00:34:41
Speaker
Well, this is the difficulty all around, isn't it? Everybody's suffering, everyone. as you The whole family has ah has a problem when one child has a problem. and i This is when the guilt kicks in, and this happens in um stereotypical families. The guilt kicks in when the second child is born.
00:35:00
Speaker
And then that's, I just, look, we could go into shame, but that's a whole other episode. um I'm umm fascinated by how that guilt turns into the shame and the people pleasing. Maybe it comes from being a people pleaser originally for the reasons that you've mentioned. um But yeah, parenting's really, really tough.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yes. And we have limited resources and I think that's a factor. We do our best. um And to some extent, you know as long as you're alive, it's never too late. you know um Having those conversations and saying, actually, yeah, I feel you've been a bit neglected. I'm sorry about that. like Let's do something about it. you know Even with an adult child. I've heard you say that before. you've so I think you said that to me before when I've been banging on about, my God, I've been such a bad parent.
00:35:54
Speaker
I love that that you you know there's still time to repair. It doesn't stop when they go off to university and find their own friends and move out and get their own life. You can still have those conversations.
00:36:08
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think they can be really healing from both sides. And and i I really firmly believe our kids don't need us to be perfect. In fact, they learn from us being imperfect. And and what they what they need is is ah the opportunity to kind of talk about stuff and process it.
00:36:28
Speaker
yeah We can make mistakes. I remember my first boss used to say the worst thing you can do is to a child is frighten them. Because if you frighten the child, you silence them. Whereas what we want, as hard as it is, is if we make a mistake, if we annoy our child, if they have the freedom to react, then your focus is in it.
00:36:48
Speaker
I really don't like what you said there, Dad. I don't like the way you treated me. Okay, let's talk about it." It's that's a kind of it's organic. It moves. and so yeah There's something about just being open for the conversation and not shutting it down. um Whatever that conversation is, whether they feel left out or that things are unfair,
00:37:11
Speaker
um I think that's the theme in all families, but it can be especially strong in a family with a disability.
Discussion on John's TEDx Talk
00:37:18
Speaker
the there's yeah There's an imbalance, there's an unfairness. um and I certainly felt that all my life, my brother got away with things that I could never get away with. right and I he would be kicking him under the dining room table. I was just incensed what he could get away with that I would get told off for. That sense of injustice and unfairness, that was always shut down. It's like, well, you know you need to be more understanding. He can't help it.
00:37:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. I'm kind of there with you. We could keep going, um but I want to talk about the... Thank you for sharing all of that because I know that's super personal, but I think it is so much of what you said there will we' land with a lot of people, I think. um What drove you to consider getting up on a stage and talking to people about... And i ah I want to introduce the topic of... I will put the link in the show notes for anyone that's intrigued. John spoke about why we all have the capacity to hate other people and why we shouldn't be in denial about that. I mean, what possessed you to get up on a stage and talk about that?
00:38:36
Speaker
Well, I think it worked two levels. One was i just thought I've always liked TED Talks. I thought I really liked the format. It's it's like you know you've got 12 or 20 minutes to put an idea across, and that's it, rather than droning on for a whole day as a keynote speaker. So I liked the format, first of all. I thought it was dynamic and just this idea of an idea that you put out there.
00:38:58
Speaker
but Beyond that, I just thought, what a fabulous experience to do that and to to learn a new skill. um i mean It's not obvious, but I talk to groups for a living. you know i'm I'm a trainer, but that's a very different style. That's very free-floating. I'm having a conversation with a group of students.
00:39:18
Speaker
um The idea of presenting really to a sea of faces ah with no feedback is a very different skill. We're talking about keynote speaking. And I thought, what a fabulous eye opportunity to develop that skill. um And it was. I mean, the team were brilliant. We we got coaching. We got lots of feedback. Our scripts were analyzed.
00:39:43
Speaker
um We had a ah ah voice coach working with us, ah and I just felt like I learned so much from the process. and Being part of that whole community, ah there's an amazing amount of people involved in putting this together. There must have been about 20 people in the team. There was a social media team, there was a videographer team, there was a photographer, you know and they're all really, really skillful professionals.
00:40:09
Speaker
So you've got this amazing bunch of people as well as my coach ah speakers who are fabulous really interesting bunch of people. you know yeah reading they' were all bor it It felt like ah just a very special experience. So I think I got a sense of that when I applied. I i want to be part of this.
00:40:28
Speaker
um And it it it has been just it's been absolutely wonderful um It's been ah a lovely experience a lovely thing to be a part of and I'm kind of really proud of what we all did I mean, I really you know, I don't it's not down to one but it's a little bit like the Oscars where the main actor gets all the glory and it's like actually it probably takes two three hundred people to make a movie and Yeah, the actor was a very small part of it. And I feel a bit like that with Ted. It's like, yeah, yeah I did a talk, but actually without all those people, none of this would have happened. And I certainly wouldn't get the the views I got if the quality of the output wasn't top notch. Yeah, it is a very good um organization. This is TEDx and Albans we're talking about. They were in their second year. is it so Was it second year? Yes. this And they're growing. It's going to be even bigger next year. um and ah But I think everywhere TEDx is is a really professional organization. and and What an amazing opportunity. How how did you deal with the nerves of being up there?
00:41:33
Speaker
ah Probably against what everything else I say when I'm a trainer, I actually just kind of blocked it. ah I was very nervous in the lead up because I just couldn't remember my speech. I went over it and over and over it. And I had real difficulty remembering it all. And I think part of the problem was the way I'd written it was actually quite disconnected. It was a lot of ah different concepts, different ideas, whereas most people told a story.
00:42:02
Speaker
And that feels a lot more ah organic and simpler. Um, so I had real problems getting remembering it all. So I was, the nerves were there before a lot. yeah And then on the day, I just thought, I'm just going to do it. You know, I was backstage about to go on and I just like.
00:42:20
Speaker
Just do it. Just go out there and do it. ah And you actually try not to focus too much on my nerves. Just focus on delivery, you know, and yeah.
00:42:34
Speaker
don't overwhelm myself. there was There's a few tips I picked up as well about what you're telling yourself about how it's going to go. so you know Literally, if you're imagining that he goes badly, you're going to be very nervous. and Somebody said even imagining it going well is a distraction. You've just got to be in the moment. What I yeah tried to do as I walked out on stage is just focus on delivering, nothing else. yeah Yeah, it's kind of like the exam nerves thing. Yeah, yeah it was it was prior. And then, yes, like if you if you go into an exam knowing your subject, it's actually quite a buzz. You know you can you can focus and just do it.
00:43:16
Speaker
and and Yeah, it's a bit like that. Looking look at the video now, I can see that i my voice was kind of shaky throughout, ah but I'm actually okay about that because I think that's emotionally appropriate. What I was talking about was emotional, and it it probably added the the fact that I was a little bit hesitant or a little bit shaky.
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah you looked um I was in the audience, you looked just thoughtful. um but You were really thinking about what you had to say, so yeah I think you're absolutely right. It did add to it. Anyone who is interested, and I can't imagine you wouldn't be, the talk is called, ah why Why Do We Hate? Is that right?
00:43:58
Speaker
Yes, um I mean what ah what I was fascinated by really, it came out of an article I wrote a long time ago where I thought we were constantly looking at being loving, being kind,
00:44:11
Speaker
how we you know we're trying to the um yeah offer each other unconditional positive regard and these sorts of ideas. And I thought, well, we're we're missing something here, which is so often we don't do those things, so often where we can be cruel and unkind. And I think it's it's quite ah dangerous actually, to see the bad people as being so something different. um We've got this underlying concept of a society that some people are just bad or some people are evil, which is very simplistic and it just means, oh, it's somewhere over there. It's not me. And the reality is, if you look at world history, it is ordinary people that do horrible things.
00:44:56
Speaker
um As I said in the talk, that yeah most Nazis were very ordinary people. They weren't exceptional. A lot of them were kind of clerks and sort of middle class, you know fairly normal people.
00:45:10
Speaker
And so what I was quite fascinated and I am very really quite fascinated by what switches that switch, what gets us to, you know, switch into being horrible, horrible. And we can all do it and we can all do it on lots of different levels. So we could be horrible to ourselves. We can be horrible to our kids, let alone on the global scale. So that was, that was the motivation. That was what I was interested in.
00:45:37
Speaker
um And the more I kind of looked at it, the more I thought there's so many different aspects to this. There's so many different ways in which we can be horrible. like Yeah. And none of us is immune to it. That's the point that I think you are making that I really like. So everybody that's listening right now, if you're fascinated by this idea that you don't like to think of yourself as someone that could hate another person, go and have a watch of John's
Closing Remarks
00:46:05
Speaker
talk. The link is in the show notes, or you can find it on St. Hawkins TEDx. Or you can find it on the TEDx site. The link's in the show notes. Just press the link.
00:46:15
Speaker
um John, ah we've we've got to draw it to a close. I wish we could carry on for a lot longer, but I feel like I could sit and chat to you for... a ah Well, we have, haven't they? Chatted for nearly a week at a time and it's still never enough. um Thank you so much for sharing everything that you've had to say today. um Let people know where they can find you.
00:46:40
Speaker
um The Albany Center in St. Albans. Our main website is theorbanycenter.com. um I'm also quickly trying to redevelop my website, which is johnwilsoncooper.com. um It's a bit basic at the moment, but that that is taking off in the next week or so.
00:47:00
Speaker
Amazing. So I will put links to both of those and the Albany Centre is also on Facebook and John is on LinkedIn. I'll put those links in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being with us today, John. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Cheers.
00:47:21
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please give it a rating on your podcast app. And if you know someone who might benefit from listening, do share it with them.
00:47:32
Speaker
It also means a lot when you give me feedback, so if you have comments or suggestions for another episode, or know someone who'd like to tell their story on the Teenage Kicks podcast, do get in touch at Helen at HelenWheels.com, or come and find me on my blog, ActuallyMommy.co.uk. Head over there now for more articles on the joys, and there are many, of parenting a teenager. Bye for now.