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Ep. 94: What on earth do you do with a bully when you're a teenager?
176 Plays4 months ago
Today's guest speaks of horrific emotional bullying at school as a teenager. She struggled to make friends after she was accepted to a selective school, and her self-esteem suffered. Her parents had sacrificed to get her into the school, so Angela didn't feel she could complain to them. Instead, she felt guilty for having attracted the abuse. This is all too common for children who are bullied - the feeling that something must be wrong with them.
Angela tells me how this impacted her through her adult life, and how she eventually turned around her view of herself. She now helps others who are dealing with the effects of bullying, be that at school or in the workplace.
Who is Angela Roth?
Angela journey from being badly bullied in school to becoming a leading figure in the heart-centered coaching industry is a testament to her resilience and commitment to helping others. Growing up in Birkenhead as one of eight children, Angela faced significant challenges but emerged with a determination to make a positive impact in the world.Despite enduring bullying throughout her school years, Angela developed a strong sense of empathy and a desire to protect and assist those who were vulnerable. This early experience shaped her character and set her on a path of service and leadership.After pursuing a degree in mathematics, economics, and business at the University of Manchester, Angela joined the police force, driven by her desire to serve the community. Despite facing obstacles such as sexual harassment and corruption within the force, Angela remained steadfast in her commitment to making a difference. More information HERE!
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a counsellor, a parent coach, and a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email [email protected].
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
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Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Episode produced by Malloy Podcasts.
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Transcript
Introduction and Forgiveness
00:00:00
Speaker
But I began to realise that forgiveness wasn't about them. It was never about saying that what they did was okay. Forgiveness was about me letting go of the pain that they caused.
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager. I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same. My guest today is a coach who was badly bullied as a child.
Angela's Background and Early Experiences
00:00:45
Speaker
Growing up in Birkenhead as one of eight children, Angela Roth faced significant challenges. But despite this, she developed a strong sense of empathy and a desire to protect and assist others who were vulnerable. This early experience shaped her character and set her on her current path. Angela joined the police force driven by her desire to serve the community.
00:01:11
Speaker
There she faced sexual harassment and corruption within the force, but she was determined to make a difference. I'm going to ask her to tell us about that and about how she's responded. Angela, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, thank you for inviting me. Angela, um I'm going to start, as we always do, by asking you to tell us a little bit, if you will, about what your own teenage years were like. And and I'm guessing you might want to start a little bit earlier ah with your bullying experiences. um Yes, I think growing up, you know, like as you said, to with so there were eight of us and it was a very warm, loving family environment. and It was a home where, like,
00:01:53
Speaker
and loads of people were invited. My dad worked with international students, so every shape, colour, size, it didn't matter who they were, they were welcoming our home. And I think I grew up with this idea that that's how it was, that that's what everybody did.
Transition and Bullying Experiences
00:02:06
Speaker
So I went, I enjoyed my primary years, but I went to a secondary school that I didn't have any friends to go with because the local schools had suddenly become comprehensive overnight. And my sisters, my older sisters were struggling in the in the new and comprehensive school they were in. So mum and dad sent me to a different school. And I was quite shy. So first thing walking in and there were quite a lot of girls there who'd grown up together, they'd been at school together and so on. And literally on the first day I was
00:02:39
Speaker
um just looking around and seeing if there's anybody that looked friendly. And this girl came and sat next to me and just whispered in my ear, you needn't think you won't have any friends. You know, who do you think you are coming in? This was the first day and it was such a, I can remember it now and I can remember how it made me feel. And it was just so endless, you know, that kind of sense. I mean, that's hard anyway. I think that, I speak to a lot of parents whose children They remember their primary school children as joyful and full of life and energetic. And then they've changed seemingly overnight as they've hit secondary schools. I think that transition's hard anyway, but to be uprooted from all your friends and put somewhere where you don't know a soul. I can almost feel a bit panic stricken myself just thinking about it. is Is that how it felt for you?
00:03:39
Speaker
Yes, it did. it It felt just very lost. I mean, there was a sense of pride because I'd had to take an exam to get into the school. So Mum and Dad were very, very proud of me that I'd actually got through the exam. And so there was a sense, and also Mum and Dad had to help. and It was a direct grant school at the time where you got some money to help. but they had to they also had to pay something. And that was really hard for them. And they thought they were doing the right thing, detecting you and giving you the best education. but yeah ah um and And there's another aspect to that. When you know your parents have put pushed themselves to get you somewhere and it feels like it should be a privilege, I imagine you didn't want to complain. I didn't feel I could because I you know i felt like
00:04:25
Speaker
and I would be letting mum and dad down because the girl that was in charge of the little gang that she had was very subtle as most bullies are. It was mostly verbal. There were some kicks and things going as I walked past and stuff, but it was, I just felt guilty. I felt guilty that but something there must be something wrong with me because why would you do this to me? And, you know, I'd had this opportunity for this school and it was going to give me sort of a start to life. And then suddenly here I was.
Impact of Bullying on Self-esteem and Coping Mechanisms
00:04:53
Speaker
and no friends. And even though one girl I thought was my friend, when we were standing sort of at the side of the games field, she, these girls came and started kicking me, and hitting me, pulling my hair and so on. And she just stood and watched. So she was the only person I thought might be my friend, and she didn't feel strong enough to go and tell the teachers. That's pretty common, isn't it? I think i've I've spoken to a number of people who've been bullied on the podcast, and they've said,
00:05:21
Speaker
They've said this that it's ah and actually where I had a psychologist on a few weeks ago who said um it's ah it's a lot to expect other kids to intervene with the so-called popular group if they're treating someone badly. It's what we would do as adults and it's what we hope people would do in school, but kids are too young and too vulnerable themselves to risk being ostracized for standing up for a friend. It's so sad.
00:05:50
Speaker
I know, and ah you know, at the time when she said to me, well, I couldn't say anything because they would do it to me. And that was her fear. And at that point, she was she thought she was safe from it. So, you know, now looking back, like you say, I can understand how she felt, but at the time, of course, it felt completely, if she wouldn't even stand, how would people believe me if the one girl that saw it wouldn't actually, you know, tell anybody? Oh, you must have been, well, how did you feel? I just felt abandoned and crushed and, as I say, guilty. I just, I couldn't understand what it was, what did I need to do to stop it happening. um So i I would try and stay out of their way as much as I possibly could, but I was in classes with them a lot of the time. and So people were in the corridor together a lot of the time. and um
00:06:44
Speaker
I actually, my coping strategy, and I sort of understand that more now, but my coping strategy became food. and My mum and dad, I had bus money, but I didn't actually want to go home on the bus because they would be at the bus stop. I used to walk home, which meant that I had my bus money in my pocket and I could buy chocolate with it. And chocolate gave me a feeling of and warm I suppose. It was a dopamine hit that you get from chocolate, isn't it? Serotonin, isn't it? some of the but it It provokes some hormones. The sugar is a rush. Yeah, yeah and it's and that's so that but that became a habit really each day. Something for chocolate mum couldn't understand why I was being in wait.
00:07:28
Speaker
um and of course that's because No, it's really understandable to want to seek some form of comfort, isn't it? When you're really in a tormented situation and there's nothing you can do about it. And you you you mentioned guilt and you know it it equates to shame that anyone should feel ashamed of being bullied when they haven't done anything wrong. It's just awful. Shame is such an overwhelming emotion that people will do anything to escape from it. so It's not really surprising that people turn to, um well, not young children. Well, I suppose some of them do. I'm thinking about alcohol as well because it's nu that's another thing I heard that an expression once that was all addiction is pain. So if you had a sugar habit and and you haven't called it an addiction, I'm putting words in your mouth, but you know, sugar habits, any kind of habit that is used to make you feel differently to how you are, risks becoming an addiction. So what whatever the substance is, what or the behavior even that makes you feel better, you're you're going to be driven to that.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And it was, it did become a form of addiction. I don't mind saying so. I think sometimes we
Cycle of Addiction and Shame
00:08:53
Speaker
shy away from that word because the automatic assumption is must be drugs. If they talk about addiction, it must be drugs. And of course that's not true, but it did be become and and became, it has been a lifelong battle to and move away from that and to understand why that happened and where it came from. And it was only by helping, eventually helping other people to lose weight, losing weight myself and helping other people to do it that I began to realize what the story was and where that kind of behavior came from. which so But you know i mean for many people, it could be that they didn't they never find out. They just they just carry on using the behavior. And feeling ashamed of it if they don't like the results of it. So alcohol leaves you feeling awful. It and changes your behavior. Sugar make can make you gain weight, which is obviously was detrimental for you. it It's easy to carry on with those things because you don't feel able to give them up.
00:09:47
Speaker
because otherwise, how would you cope? And then berate yourself for doing it because you don't like the consequences of it. And so it's a vicious cycle. Yes, it is. And I think it's not even I realized that I would always go for it when there was nobody do watching, or i would um or I would hide it, or I would hide the wrappers. If I ate it or a chocolate, I would hide the wrappers down in the bin. It was kind of beginning to realize that those kind of behaviors meant that I was actually ashamed, not just of the, when when I was younger, I didn't realize this, of course, this was later realizing that actually, it was all wrapped up in that guilt feeling that started when I was 11. And the shame, like you say, and the more you feel it, the less you can talk about it. So, you know, you're kind of in a vicious cycle, really, you feel you have a couple of minutes hit or feeling good when you're eating the chocolate, or whatever other behavior. And then of course, like you say, you just
00:10:47
Speaker
feel even more rugged actually. Yeah worse than you did before, yeah but it's so compelling. So did you just keep all of this to yourself? What did you do? i I did keep it to myself and because of that it didn't, I did end up in other situations which and where I was vulnerable um and with a youth worker for example, men particularly, and seemed to recognize in me somebody who wasn't going to tell.
Journey to Self-acceptance and Forgiveness
00:11:21
Speaker
Oh, wow. And it got me into all sorts of scrapes. Fortunately, I never, you know, well, no. Yeah, it got me into all sorts of scrapes. And scrapes I didn't know how to get out of and I didn't know how to tell anybody. So I kept it all to myself. In fact, I only started talking about it probably about three years ago during lockdown. So my mum found out for the first time
00:11:46
Speaker
then she could see heard me talking about it, but I decided that why would I keep this a secret when it maybe it would help other people. And I needed to, I actually needed to acknowledge it and um and forgive and let go of all of that pain that's been sitting inside of me for all those years. Wow. That's huge, isn't it? Are you able to say any more about what you've started to disclose and how what how that's helped you? Yeah, I began to realise that if I could talk about the guilt and acknowledge that none of that was my fault. And there was a kind of of realisation in me that
00:12:36
Speaker
um I've got slightly further is, what it had left me with was this feeling that I was a second-rate person, that maybe I'd been born by accident, maybe that I didn't really have an identity or know I wasn't really the sort of person that should be here. Now, I kind of dealt with that through having children, marriage, my husband is absolutely wonderful. There was lots of ways that I saw past that, but it wasn't until it finally sunk in And I'll tell you what happened was that the miracle of my birth suddenly became real to me, in the sense that i the agonists are like, it's miraculous that they get together. And when I actually fully understood just how miraculous the point of conception is, then I realized I wasn't hit by accident. And that made a huge shift inside of me. And it began to show me that actually, if somebody bullied me, or was horrible to me, or
00:13:32
Speaker
tried to take advantage of me. That was their problem. It wasn't my problem. It was their problem. And it was that they probably had a lot of pain inside of them. You know, they probably were reacting to something that was going on, which I wouldn't understand that I could never change. But I just just literally decided that I wasn't going to take the blame for it anymore. And it was, it was really, it was wonderful, actually, because I began to realize it was like there was, um you know, those bungee ropes that you had tie roof boxes on and things with. actually, I realized that what was happening was I so i was hooked to one of these behind me or quite a few of them actually. And I could move forward, you know, I had a successful career and so on, I could move forward. But I kept being pulled back as soon as I got to a certain stage, I'd be sort of pulled back. And I realized that the only way I was genuinely going to step into who I am, was by unhooking those things. And the only way I could do that was actually forgiving the people who bullied me. wow And the man who
00:14:32
Speaker
took advantage and that was um hugely significant. stayed in my own journey, really. um Okay. So I'm really interested in that because you're right. Bullies are you... Well, i I would like to say always, but I don't know every single bully. So I don't know, but ah my perception is that they always do what they're doing because they've got pain themselves. So I think you're completely right. It was about them. It was not about you.
00:15:08
Speaker
But that doesn't make what they give to you all the difficult feelings they've got that they want to offload on you, because that's what they're doing, I think. Any fairer or just more justifiable or easier to tolerate. And so I don't know. how you forgive. I've heard people say this before that actually you have to make your peace with what happens to you. And you know as a counselor, I know that acceptance is a huge part of shifting our mindset and and um being able to move forward. But what did it take for you to forgive those people that had hurt you and set you up for a lifetime of being in that victim space?
00:16:00
Speaker
So I think because it is a very, very difficult thing to do, that's probably one of the reasons why it took me so long. But I think what happened was I began to say that I was a perfectly valid um human being who had been miraculously created. There's nobody like me in the world. And then it began to see that these other people and these girls particularly were similar um and what I could never do and never would be able to, I don't even know where they live. is understand what was going on in their lives. I never would be able to understand it. I don't understand, you know, whether they were being bullied or treated badly. But I began to realize that forgiveness wasn't about them. It was never about saying that what they did was okay. Forgiveness was about me letting go of the pain they caused. So it was, that was a hugely releasing thing because it had held me back. Because like you say, people kept saying to me, oh, you just need to forgive someone, you just need to put them behind you when I even started talking about it.
00:16:59
Speaker
like, well, how do you do that? Because that, that makes it okay. And then I began to realize, of course, it never could be okay. But I didn't want to carry the pain anymore. I didn't want to carry the the the guilt or the anger or the hurt anymore. So forgiving them was like, it's almost like releasing them to whatever life they've got now, and hoping that they've managed to sort themselves out. But it was about me saying, I'm not going to be controlled anymore.
Resentment and Its Effects on Life
00:17:27
Speaker
by that pain, the shame, the guilt, the anger, the hurt, I'm not going to allow it to affect me. And once I turned forgiveness into that, it became so much easier. oh It's really interesting because the word that I had in my head, because I think we've all been in a situation where we've been angry with someone and haven't been able to get what we perceive as justice. The word that I had in my head as you were saying all of those things was resentment.
00:17:58
Speaker
And I feel like that might be the hardest thing to get rid of. It's really easy to continue going through your life with this, you know, like this idea of a hit list, like a mythical, these these are the people on my list. If I ever get a chance, I want to repay them for what they did to me. I feel like we've all got one of those, right? Or is it just me? It's definitely not. No, I think. and i And to be honest, and in me that that came out, I think it comes out even more when you've got children and you realize that a child of yours is being you know badly treated or hurt because there' this is overwhelming. you know what What are you going to do with that? and visit it when you've got kids you just It's like the mama bear thing kicks in and you just want to destroy everyone who's hurting them. Yeah, absolutely. i mean One of our children was very badly bullied, our third son, and eventually I actually came out of school.
00:18:56
Speaker
I ended up home educating our younger two children because I wasn't going to let him go through what I'd gone through. and But I think resentment itself has such a negative impact on us. Yeah, I feel like resentment is... it's It feels like such a bland inconsequential emotion. I know it's on the anger spectrum, but it feels like it's not anger. It's just a bit of resentment, like frustration. It's like we can trivialize it, like it's not a big deal. But I think you're right. It's huge and really, really destructive and we don't give it the attention it deserves. What's your take on resentment?
00:19:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I think one of the things that helped me to deal with it was I remembered some, my mum and dad took loads of people into our house and one of it was elderly people, elderly women particularly, because they were you know on their end of widows in the area. And as a child, I was very struck by the difference between them. And there was one dear old lady, I know she'd had a bad life, but she never had a good way to say for anybody. And her whole face and facesh shirt features showed the lines around her mouth, around her eyes, whereas the other ladies just were jolly and happy and and so on. And they would always be very positive. And it did have a big impact on me because i I began to, I remember thinking what's gone on in her life that's made her look like that. And it was as much the way she looked as what she said. And that struck me later on that I did not want to be like at that. I think resentment, if you allow it to grow and sit, I think you can hide it.
00:20:39
Speaker
when you're, you know, generally day to day, but there are triggers. And when those things trigger that resentment, you'll hear people snapping or saying something horrible or, you know, at work, they'll be the one that makes the snide comment about the person who didn't lose their baby weight or, ah you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it did have quite an impact yeah I'm just thinking about all the people who who seek out the drama, you know, like the trolls on on social media, all the people who were the first to pick up on a really terrible news story and doom monger about, I don't know if that's a word, however I made that up, but um the doom mongering that goes on.
00:21:25
Speaker
And it's like they're drawn to tragedy and negativity. and And then those are often the people who are very quick to anger, like you say, who will snap and hurt people. And they probably don't know that it's about some lingering, deep-seated resentment caused by an upset, because let's let's face it, going back to that quote that I said earlier, oh all addictions like pain about pain, everything Everything negative in the way we respond is about pain, usually. It's just that we don't tend to recognise it until we've done some deep work. I know counselling is different to coaching. what what's um and When we're getting off topic, because I want to come back to your time in the police force, but what's your take on it as a coach, helping somebody let go of resentment?
Healing through Counseling and Coaching
00:22:21
Speaker
Well, I think having had counselling myself and one of my sisters had a lot through some problems she had, um the reason I moved into coaching instead was actually because my experiencing of counselling was, it was a great place to talk about myself, to acknowledge that I wasn't the only one that was suffering in that way, that there were other people. So I i had kind of permission to experience the pain if you like. And that was, you know, encouraging. And it was a, it probably was a first stage to acknowledge what was going through. However, it didn't give me the tools to escape from it. And that was really clear to me. And it's the same with my sister. Now I'm not saying that counseling is wrong. So please don't think that. But no for me, I'm interested in the difference because I think some people at times in their lives need counseling and some people
00:23:12
Speaker
need coaching. and that i don't I think people struggle to know which it is that they need. I think quite often, for anyone that's been traumatized in any particular way, counselling should come first because it needs a space to really accept that what you've been through and is it okay that you struggled with it. yeah there's There's no blame or shame that you struggled with whatever it was. and I think counselling is really powerful at that place. Once you've got to that place of acknowledging that you're not alone and that it's it's understandable why you felt how you did, the coach is somebody who can come in and help you to let go so that you can don't you you stop living with that pain and you have a place where you can really move forward and step into who you want to be and actually probably who you all always should have been and would have been if you hadn't have been through that situation, but also
00:24:10
Speaker
It takes the positive out of the pain and it says and it says, what did you learn through it? How can you help somebody else who's going through it? And it brings it into a place where it's a powerful, powerful thing. So just a quick example, when my brother died, who was my hero, my rock, and he died of brain cancer nearly 20 years ago now, my world fell apart completely, literally. I had no, you see I could tell him things and it just, I didn't know how to deal with it at all. counselling really helped me to accept that it was okay that I was going through that pain. And just because other people were losing things didn't negate my pain. So I needed that space to give myself permission to grieve. Yes. But then I needed a way as I've gone forward to turn it into something that I can now move other people and touch other people and help them to step forward. So I can use that pain. It it never goes away.
00:25:09
Speaker
I'll never have a point where I don't wish my brother would walk through the door, but I've grown around it and something stronger has come out of me because of it. And that's where coaching comes in. a That's really interesting. I'm a um'm ah bereavement counselor as one of my specialisms and there's um as's a theory of grief. I think it's Tompkins theory of ah where grief is like a fried egg. So when you break an egg into a pan and it starts to cook,
00:25:41
Speaker
The white spreads out. The yoke never gets any smaller. That's the grief, the sadness. It never gets any smaller and people want it to get smaller. um And it's coming to terms with the fact that the grief never gets any smaller, but your life spreads out and grows around it, which I think is a really nice theory. And you've just kind of described that process. where What I'm struck by with coaching is that it sounds like coaching is um
00:26:09
Speaker
there's There's more proactivity to it. Again, if that's a word. um like and Look, it's a proactive goal setting and action points that you can do to proactively make your your life better. ah have i kind of Have I got that right? Yes. it's it's it's and that the The picture of the egg is absolutely spot on exactly how how that happened for me. And the the coaching side, What it did was it turned that yoke, if you like, into a springboard that I could jump from and um and I can go back to and jump from again and it gives me power to step into a situation that I find myself in where people will start opening up to me about things and they'll say, I don't know why I'm telling you this. No idea why I've started talking about this and I know why they're doing it because there's something in me that resonates with what they're saying. yes And I think for anyone,
00:27:07
Speaker
you know If you can have an opportunity to do that with the pain that you've been through, then it it changes your life completely. yeah yeah that's Yeah, that is quite profound because there's a lot of cliches, are well, they they're not cliches, but to to a hurting person, they might sound like cliches around, use your grief, use your pain. um and There's a lot of kind of rhetoric on social media about ah using it to make yourself something better and i I do think sometimes that can be damaging in that it can set us up to believe that
00:27:48
Speaker
we should see our pain as a positive thing. And we are failing if we don't, if we see it as something that is deeply has deeply affected us in in a negative way. um So I like the way you've described it as a ah like a springboard, but to you um I'm imagining that you go back to that grief, that that egg yolk, and feel deeply sad about the loss of your brother. Oh, and you know, and that yeah. And then pull yourself out of it because you know that there are things you can do. Is that ah yes right? ah Yeah, I mean, I would say it's it's about and it's not it never leaves me. And I think it was when I realized that that was okay, that the whole he's left is never going to be filled. Nobody will ever replace my brother. They can't.
00:28:44
Speaker
um And that that's okay. that's okay yeah It's absolutely fine because he had a really special place in my heart. And um you know, at one point I would have, and and sometimes I still will tear up when I'm talking about him, probably less so when I'm explaining how how it's helped you know how understanding that it's okay to have that pain and to have that hole. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that it's still there because you're right. When people used to say to me, Oh, well, you know, in the future to come, you know, it's going to make you a woman that you never would have been. What doesn't make you stronger? That awful phrase. it's It's just rubbish. But what will make you stronger is when you recognise that the whole is there and that it's okay for your life to grow around it. Yes.
Challenges in the Police Force
00:29:34
Speaker
Yes. And it's okay to still have pain and to cry sometimes. You can recover from that each time you do it.
00:29:42
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that's that's what I was trying to say. Yeah, you've said it much better than me. Right, Angela, I'm i'm really curious about this um time you spent in the police force. Tell us a little bit about what that work was like and where the that where the sexual harassment came in. Well, when I was in the police force, it was by the time I joined, um women were supposed to be equal to men. and there'd been law changes. and you know In the old days where police women, for example, didn't patrol the streets, um you had just one on overnight just in case a woman was attacked and that sort of thing. All of that you know was well out of the way by the time I joined. and In theory. Supposedly. yeah you know we We were equal and therefore were supposed to do exactly the same job. so that was There were women there who had been fighting for that for years you know and obviously by the time I joined,
00:30:42
Speaker
Some of those women were still there, but they were much older. and But a lot of women had left, of course, when all of that change came in. But a lot of the men had not changed. They had not embraced this change at all. And they still saw themselves really as the real police officers. And that the police women were useful, um but could be done without really, you know. And know particularly the older, the older bobbies, and particularly sadly, those who were in senior positions because they had been in the police through all the changes and um had been used to being um in this masculine world and sort of being revered by the policemen. So some of it was very subtle where, for example, maybe I'd be doing something at the desk and a certain inspector would come in and he wanted, he would make out that he needed to pick something up from the desk. And instead of moving to the right-hand side of me,
00:31:40
Speaker
go get what he wanted he would lean across the front of me so that he could touch or fondle you know whatever and as he went and so it was all that kind of thing or he would put his arm around me as if he was encouraging me and say something supposedly nice um now i would never want to say they were all like that because i had a wonderful wonderful inspector who was so um i admired him so much and he was utterly the opposite but there were just there weren't enough of these people who were still part of the police force. And the thing was, you couldn't talk about it because nobody did. It was accepted. It was part and parcel of being a policewoman. This was what you just put up with. Some of the policewomen actually were even worse in a way because I didn't fit their bill. I was still in a bully-able state of... Again, if that's the word, I don't know if it is,
00:32:40
Speaker
And there was something about me clearly that triggered certain people. And I didn't i didn't swear. um I didn't sleep around. So there were various things that certain policemen did do. And because I didn't, it clearly triggered them and probably made them feel guilty. I don't know. But they then saw it as there i is their duty. to belittle me and, you know, ask me, make sexual comments to try and get me to join in with the, you know, or to embarrass me in front of people. So the the women were, I found that harder actually. I understand that. Yeah, like you didn't fit the mould and so they were trying to force you into it and your resistance would have left them wondering what the heck to think of you and what to do about you.
00:33:34
Speaker
yes Yes. So even ah even, for example, I got engaged when um when I was in the police and I was so sir happy. I mean, my husband is just so wonderful. I got my engagement ring on. I was so proud of it. And this one particular police woman just pulled it to pieces. She pulled it to pieces. It wasn't good enough. It wasn't big enough. It wasn't enough diamonds in it and all the rest of it. wow we had We had very little money. you know We were trying to save up for our house and all of this. And I'd, we'd shared by my engagement ring and they we'd chosen it together and it was, ah and I'm still wearing it now, it's really special to me, and but she couldn't, she had to belittle it. She had to mock that, you know, that relationship and so on. and So yeah ah I found that more difficult to deal with. It's fascinating how women
00:34:26
Speaker
can collude in that way with the the whole misogyny. And I'm thinking back to, ah to I'm gonna own something here myself. Oh God, I can't believe I'm gonna say this. um I'm thinking back to a time when I was young, my first kind of proper full-time job, I was probably about 23, 24 maybe. And I was um an area manager for pubs. And I'm talking 35 years ago. So um very similar as you were describing the police, i was ah I've got very similar recollection of being a young woman surrounded by middle-aged men primarily, because those were the pub landlords and their wives who actually secretly ran things from behind the scenes, a lot of them.
00:35:21
Speaker
um but but deferred and let their husbands take their or their partners take the limelight. um And I don't think I realized what my what my role needed to be because it was a different time. I often wish I could go back with the the knowledge that I have now and the progress we've made, albeit that there's still plenty to make in terms of feminism. and do it differently because I just colluded. i just i I just got in with the jobs for the boys message and I became ah quite tough. um In fact, I was incredibly tough. I had to be because people did try to belittle me and undermine me. And so I responded by really stepping up my game to the detriment of my health, actually. I found it incredibly stressful, even though I was very successful.
00:36:19
Speaker
um to prove that I was just as good as any man and I could make it in a man's world. That was the narrative that I had going on for me. And I didn't notice when other women didn't make it in a man's world. ah I don't i don't think i ah but i don't but think I ever belittled anyone or put anyone down or held anyone back. In fact, I did the opposite where I could, but I just didn't notice when people weren't thriving in that world. so i could totally And I've made this about me now, but i it's just such a powerful
00:36:57
Speaker
sense of where you are and I'm actually quite astonished at your strength that you were able to withstand that and not join in with the other women who were making derogatory comments about it, not, not collude.
Staying True to Oneself and Teenage Identity
00:37:13
Speaker
I think and it puzzled me a lot because again, I couldn't, I think the the reason that I um was determined not to give in to get into that or join in with it was And because I like being a woman and I i always have. and and And I think because of the way that they behaved and the way that they dress, there was a part of me that felt sorry for them because I felt like they were trying to be men. and And actually they'd been in the police a lot longer. They had been part of the fight for equality. So, you know, I think I began to realize that probably that's what came through, that they were determined to prove
00:37:57
Speaker
that they were like men instead of realizing, of course, that, you know, we're just as good as, yeah but we're different and we should be able to celebrate our differences. and and and what i And I think the other thing that helped me, really helped me was this one particular inspector who genuinely cared for me and my career and I was okay. And um he was a really straight, really old school um guy that reminded me a bit of my dad. And, um, and he would just, he was just always there in the background a little bit, like a bit guardian angel. And also a couple of the other older men, I heard them the way that they thought about these other women and they weren't impressed. They weren't, um, they didn't respect them. Right. So I think that gave me that, you know, edge of actually, I don't want to be like that because I don't actually want people to talk about me like that. Yeah. Yeah. What you're speaking to is a, a.
00:38:55
Speaker
a desire and a tenacity and an ability to stick to know who you are and stick with it, which I think is fundamental. And for any teenagers that are listening, this is probably one of the hardest things you will ever do, especially at your your age. is to know who you are or figure out who you are, because who knows who they are really at 14, but figure out who you are and not get dragged into being something that you're not just to fit in. Yes. Yes. I think I have to say, you know, and I'm sure anyone who's in the teenagers now, um you know, one of my uncles used to say, oh, you know, it's the best years of your life and all of this stuff. I hate it.
00:39:47
Speaker
my teenagers and I don't mind saying so, they all they were the worst years of my life. big Because you are, you know, insecurity is there, your body's changing, you don't know who to talk to, how do you admit things to people, you don't know what you're feeling is the same as what other people are feeling. um And I think I did nothing wrong with saying it. But it's who do you say it to? you know, particularly if other people around you have got expectations about you and you're supposed to be achieving these goals and and all the rest, um and you feel different. So, you know, I wish I could have talked to somebody at the time. and And I know, absolutely hand on heart, you know, if my mum was listening to this, and she may well do, um I know that my mum would have been down that school like you would not have been able to stop her, she would have been in there. do
00:40:40
Speaker
There's no way she would not have stood up for me, but they were so subtle and clever. I didn't know how to say. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking where you just said, who do you say it to? For a lot of the kids, first of all, they can't say it to their friends because they don't know who to trust.
00:41:05
Speaker
They don't necessarily want, actually, teachers sometimes become the person that they say it to, I would imagine, because very often, although us as parents, we desperately want our kids to say it to us because we want to fix it for them. That's the very reason that our kids don't say it to us, because they know that we have a vested interest and we may make decisions based on our own emotions. rather than on what they want to happen. And I've kind of said that in quite a complicated way, but our kids don't trust us as parents to do what they want. We might do what they need, but we don't do what they want. So it's inevitable that they often don't trust us with some of the some of the hard things.
00:42:03
Speaker
Yeah, and and and especially if there's some kind of um vested interest, in my case, obviously, with my mum and dad contributing towards the fees for this school, you know that and and their their expectations, because it had a good name, and I think if any young person is is being bullied and there's anything of that around the edges, it makes it even less likely that you're going to speak to your parent because you feel like you're letting them down. Yeah. You don't want to hurt them. Yeah. Can I just say to all teenagers, your parents, unless, with with a few exceptions, a few individuals, but your parents almost always are not going to think that you're letting them down and they'd always rather you talk to them, please. Okay. ah Bit of a heartfelt message there. Oh, do you know what? i I couldn't say it more strongly myself because when my mum found out,
00:43:00
Speaker
because I started talking about it, she sort of took me on one side and she said, were you really so unhappy? How did I not know that you were so unhappy at school? And I was able to say to a mum, mum, when I was at home, I was happy because I was safe, I was loved, I was cared for. Home was my escape because I knew there that I could be who I was, I could tell you if I was upset and so on. yeah but school was a different place, but you protected me through that time and helped me to get through it just because you loved me and you were at home and I was safe.
Encouragement for Personal Growth and Support
00:43:32
Speaker
And that really, I needed to say that to her because of course her immediate reaction was, why did I not know? Huge guilt from her, I imagine. Tough. Yeah, really tough. Gosh. Yeah, I feel like we've uncovered,
00:43:50
Speaker
we We've done quite a lot of deep work today. We've uncovered quite a lot of things. um And if anybody is... intrigued and feels compelled to do something for themselves here, whether that be counselling, whether that be coaching. um there are I will put some links into the show notes for counselling resources that I recommend. um But Angela, where can people reach out to you and find out more about the work that you do as a coach?
00:44:25
Speaker
ah I have ah as a website, and the business is called Succeed From The Start, and the website is SucceedFromTheStart.com. um So you can always get me there. There's a little message me talking on the front. And the whole business started because I saw the way that people were tricked into um buying into sort of expensive coaching training programs during COVID and it was a lot of them out there. Oh, you mean the online stuff, the the download and doing your own free time? Yeah, like anyone ever makes that happen. Well, exactly. And the promise with them was you're going to get this six, seven-figure income and all the rest of it. And it was so many people did it and they put their savings into it and all of this. And I actually put my savings into something that didn't didn't end up giving me what I needed. So the business is very much focused on
00:45:13
Speaker
um Helping those who've got a passion to serve and and ah an ability to change people's lives, but they don't know how to run a business around it. so It literally helps you know helps them go from A to B, setting their business up with all the tech support and everything behind that. but The whole purpose of it is to get their voice out there, to get them in front of the people that they can help. I and i'm all i always love, you know if there was a young person that was sitting there thinking, I need some help with this. You know, that's a passion that I've got to help those people unlock that part of them so that they can move on and move forward and and achieve what they're capable of and not be trapped in that circular world of never knowing how to get out of it. But that's the best place. I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, so you'll find me there with the succeed from the start, even if you put the hashtag in, you'll find me.
00:46:05
Speaker
Amazing. I will put that link into the show notes for anybody that wants to find out a little bit more. Angela, thank you so much for your time today. and Thank you for having me. It's been really good to talk to you.
00:46:21
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out, as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say. If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. If you have a story or a suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail dot.com or message me on Instagram. I i am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey.
00:47:10
Speaker
See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teams. Bye for now.