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Ep.92: When does your child need a smartphone?
232 Plays7 months ago
The big question in this episode is whether or not to give your child a smartphone, and what's the right age for your teenager to have a smartphones.
Ofcom research in the UK in April 2024 claims that nearly a quarter of 5-7 year olds have their own smartphones, with 65% using WhatsApp and other messaging services.
Hannah Oertel is the Founder and CEO of Delay Smartphones, a pioneering initiative dedicated to protecting children from the dangers of smartphones. As a therapist and intervention coach, she says she’s observed a concerning rise in anxiety among clients, and didn’t want her own children to have a childhood based on smartphones.
Hannah developed a non-judgmental parent-to-parent approach that empowers parents with research and alternatives, encouraging them to delay smartphone access until age 14. With Hannah's leadership, Delay Smartphones has garnered support across the UK and recently expanded into the US.
More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:
Helen wills is a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.
Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email hhelen@actuallymummy.co.uk.
There are already stories from fabulous guests about difficult things that happened to them as teenagers - including losing a parent, becoming a young carer, and being hospitalised with mental health problems - and how they overcame things to move on with their lives.
You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.
For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr's policy page
Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.
Episode produced by Malloy Podcasts.
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
So we know that 27% of all video content on the internet is pornographic. Of that video content, 87% has violence in it. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast, where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same.
Should Children Have Smartphones?
00:00:36
Speaker
Today's topic is one that I know is going to spark debate whether or not to give your child a smartphone. Ofcom Research in the UK this week claims that nearly a quarter of five to seven year olds have their own smartphones with 65% using WhatsApp and other messaging services.
00:00:56
Speaker
Hannah Autell is the founder and CEO of Delay Smartphones, a pioneering initiative dedicated to protecting children from the dangers of smartphones. As a therapist and an intervention coach, she says she's observed a concerning rise in anxiety among clients and didn't want her own children to have a childhood based on smartphones.
00:01:20
Speaker
Hannah developed a nonjudgmental parent-to-parent approach that empowers parents with research and alternatives, encouraging them to delay smartphone access until 14. I know what I think about that, but we're gonna have a good discussion. With Hannah's leadership, delay smartphones has garnered support across the UK and has recently even expanded into the US. Hannah, welcome to the podcast.
Societal and Peer Pressure on Smartphone Use
00:01:47
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me, Helen.
00:01:50
Speaker
I think we're going to have an interesting debate because I feel quite differently about smartphones. I'm not sure I agree with the quarter of parents who've gone as far as giving their child a smartphone at the age of five or seven.
00:02:06
Speaker
But maybe I would if I had children of that age right now because for me there was quite a lot of peer pressure and I think this is where parents, and I don't mean peer pressure on me, I mean self-perceived peer pressure because of the peer pressure on my kids. I think that's where parents give in and go with the smartphone option and then wonder if they've done the right thing and then get on the internet and
00:02:35
Speaker
rage about how smartphones and social media are killing our child's brains and ruining their behavior and causing all sorts of mental health issues. And somewhere in there is some truth. I know that. But my belief is that it's not the right thing to ban your child from having them when all the other children have got them. So there you go. I've said it. That's my that's my take on it. And I've got my reasons why and we'll talk about it.
Impact of Screen Time on Child Development
00:03:03
Speaker
But
00:03:05
Speaker
Tell me why a five-year-old shouldn't have a smartphone from your perspective. Yeah. So, I mean, that social pressure you talk about is definitely one of the main reasons why parents, you know, end up giving their children smartphones, you know, at that young age. But I think that the first thing is that what happens is we get, you know, one or two kids maybe get them in a class. It always tends to be
00:03:29
Speaker
Parents old iphones that they've maybe got you know from work or you know They're just sort of sitting in a drawer and a child will end up using it at home like a little ipad And then eventually they're like oh, well, they're going to school or they're going to you know The grandparents house it would be good for her to have a way to be able to contact them Let's just pop a sim card in it. They already know how to use it It's the phones that we use and we know how to use
00:03:52
Speaker
So it just seems like a sort of natural step. And then when those first couple of kids have them in a class, then children will go home to their parents and say, everyone's got a smartphone except me, I'm the only one. When we know normally that's not the case at all, it might just be a couple. But obviously if that, when those phones get brought out, they're very compelling for kids and exciting. And so we'll often get groups of kids crowding around. And so then parents think, oh gosh, if this is when everyone's getting them, then, you know,
00:04:20
Speaker
absolutely as you say I don't want my child to be left out. So the issue we've got is that in a very short amount of time we've gone from a childhood predominantly based on play to a childhood predominantly based on phones and so there are there's tons of research that shows the dangers of children having phones just in terms of you know their physical health and the
00:04:45
Speaker
things like all the things that they can be exposed to. But even if we just put all that aside, it's that opportunity cost. So what are all the things that they're not doing, if they're spending most of their childhood on smartphones.
Safer Alternatives and Tracking Concerns
00:04:59
Speaker
And so I think that, yeah, the longer that we can push that back and delay that, and so this is absolutely not a
00:05:07
Speaker
no tech campaign or delay phones campaign. It's giving the right device at the right age. So of course, when children are going out on their own, to the park, to school, yes, we want to be able to contact them. Many parents want to be able to track their children, but all of that can be done with an alternative device that doesn't come with all those potential harms.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah, the tracking thing's interesting. We might talk about that. I've just posted in my Facebook group. I have a Facebook group for parents of teenagers this morning to track or not to track because sometimes you see things you don't want or need to see that worry you. My daughter's away at university and I spotted one night at 11.30 that she was in the middle of a park and I just went into overdrive like, are you in there on your own? Are you safe?
00:05:59
Speaker
So I could have done without knowing that. So this phrase that you used, a childhood spent mostly on phones, I find that quite shocking. Is that really true?
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah, so we know on average that teenagers are spending nine hours a day on screen on screens when they're not at school. So it's and about five hours of that is on a smartphone. So even if you think it's just two hours a day that kids are spending on their phones.
00:06:31
Speaker
you know, in a week, that's, you know, 14, 15 hours, and what could they be doing instead, you know, with that time if they weren't on their phones. And so I think that again, that's the kind of opportunity cost, these are the most addictive devices that have ever been created. And so if we got them as adults, you know, we know how addicted they are, you know, but our brains were fully formed, you know, that that sort of frontal cortex is
00:06:55
Speaker
you know, so we were able to have a, you know, a childhood, you know, without phones and going through all those experiences, rites of passage, building resilience, having, you know, developing socially, whereas they're not getting that opportunity anymore. And so a lot of very basic things have just, yeah, have just been taken away from them. And we now see with
00:07:18
Speaker
Gen Z, that kind of 17 to 22, 23 year old, this group of people that are really, really struggling and they were the first generation who were given smartphones sort of pre high school and have just grown up with them and now seeing the effects of that now. When you say struggling, what does that look like?
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I think what's most widely been reported is this sort of youth mental health crisis. But it's also just in, so as I said, my background's working as a therapist and coach. And so I saw a lot of clients just in the last 10 years, just a huge increase, especially in social anxiety.
00:07:59
Speaker
And so I think that even just very things that would seem quite minor. So for example, for me, and I'm sure you growing up, you know, we didn't have maps on phones and things like that when we go around, you know, you'd get the back of an envelope, be drawing out and kind of, you know, navigate your way wherever you were going. And of course, you'd get lost, you'd get to take a wrong turn.
00:08:18
Speaker
But what would you do? You'd straight away find someone, oh, can you help me? Which way is it? And you'd be on your way. And we did that over and over and over again. And so that now, if you're suddenly dropped in the middle of nowhere, you'll be able to figure it out, even if you don't have a phone by asking other people and looking for support.
00:08:37
Speaker
So even that, giving a kid a smartphone with maps on it, which a lot of parents will say, oh, but they need maps. How are they going to navigate? And so what happens is that then they're so used to always using that technology, looking down all the time, not observing, not being present when they're traveling, but also not having to interact with members of the public, strangers.
00:09:00
Speaker
And so then if you if you then take a 20 year old who is in a city, they maybe don't know that well, and their phone dies, and they've got to get to the train station, they can end up having a panic attack because they've never had to go and ask people for help. And so that can feel like a huge, huge deal for them to have to ask someone
00:09:18
Speaker
to speak to a stranger, they've never done it before. And so even just life skills like that, that for you or I are just, you know, as a normal part of that transition from child to adult, that we would have had those experiences over and over again, that then means we're able to cope as adults, you know, we've built that up.
00:09:38
Speaker
So they haven't had loads of those opportunities that are just missing for them. And so I think that's definitely one of the biggest issues that we see in terms of their mental health and their resilience. I think that generation are often sort of called snowflakes and they don't have any resilience. But I think it's really unfair because they haven't had all those experiences. They haven't gone through those rites of passage. And so they've been really overprotected by their parents in the physical world.
00:10:06
Speaker
and then on the protected in the virtual world. And so it's also that, you know, sort of all the things that they've been exposed to. But even if you're a child who then doesn't have a smartphone, and so I think that, you know, not every single child, you know, a young adult in Gen Z was given a smartphone at the age of 10.
00:10:23
Speaker
But even if you didn't, if everyone else around you does, then for them growing up to try to interact, you know, if you're trying to talk to someone who's texting, you know, you can't engage with them properly. That's a huge barrier. And so we know that for that generation, they will choose online social interaction over in person interaction. And so
00:10:45
Speaker
even when they're together and so obviously the point of phones is to connect with people who you're not with in person at the time and that's great you know when they're used in the way that they should be but if we're then with people and we're still texting them when we're sitting next to them
00:11:00
Speaker
I've had clients who will want to text me because they're too anxious to speak to me. Even when they're in the room with you. Yes. Okay. So then you're like this, I can't conduct a session, you know, in that kind of way. And so I think that, yeah, it's this anxiety, definitely, but it's also all the kind of physical harms that we're seeing. So the spinal damage of just, you know, kids growing up, looking down all the time, everyone always adjusts their posture then.
00:11:30
Speaker
just listening as Hannah said that I sat up straight and crunched my back a little bit and then we all do it like oh yes I'm part of the perfect posture but yeah but even us exactly as adults like we know when we're hunched over a screen for ages that you know we feel that sort of tightness in our back and shoulders and so
00:11:49
Speaker
imagine that you've got you know your neck and spine hasn't developed and you're spending so much of that time and I mean you can just look at kids getting off a bus you know they're all just straight on their phones when they're walking um and so yeah I think there's just been huge impacts and I think that 10 years ago parents
00:12:07
Speaker
I mean, we had no idea. This was new tech. It was this is great. We can track our children. They've got all these, you know, they can have their bus tickets, they can have their maps, they can have their banking. You know, this was really a sort of exciting time when the iPhone came out and social media. But we've now seen that it's just doing far more harm than good to children. And I think we're going to look back 20 years from now with just absolute horror at what we allowed children to be exposed to.
Balancing Screen Time and Mental Health
00:12:37
Speaker
Right. There's so many threads to pull out of that, not least of which is the fear that parents like me might now have that they've got everything completely wrong and destroyed their child's future. But maybe we'll come back to that in a kind of what can we do if we're already there part of this conversation. But I...
00:13:05
Speaker
So I want to go back to what you said at the beginning of that point about the amount of hours that a child, a teenager, is spending online. You said even if only two hours a day is online, what could they do with those 14 hours? See, I hear that sort of thing said all the time by parents who want to blame their child's phone addiction and their mental health.
00:13:29
Speaker
They want to blame the phone for everything that's wrong about their child as they see it. Part of what I do is help parents to understand that raising teens is really difficult. You're not doing anything wrong.
00:13:47
Speaker
but your child's also not doing anything wrong. It's really normal. And I aim to give people kind of coping and communication strategies to navigate all of that with a bit more confidence, not to resolve the problem, get it off the table so they never have to think about it again, which of course is as parents, that's what we really want. I still do, whenever my kids have got an issue, I just want to know how can I fix this as fast as possible so I don't have to be scared about it anymore.
00:14:16
Speaker
I don't have to look at them in pain, but it isn't like that. So I tend to, and I've gone completely off my point, which was the 14, what could they be doing with 14 extra hours? I think those 14 hours is often time well spent because that is when my child is one relaxing, having some downtime. And I know that teenagers, even without
00:14:44
Speaker
smartphones would struggle to get out and play with a ball in the garden. They just don't have that gene anymore by the time they get to that age. They do want to be sat on the sofa or in their beds most of the time. And it's really hard for parents to watch that. And I do my share of like, let's get out, let's take a ball, let's walk the dog to be met with, oh, God, I did it last week.
00:15:08
Speaker
And it's normal and we shouldn't as parents be feeling guilty that we can't get them off their phones. I also think those two hours are used for social connection that otherwise might not happen. And there is a balance to be had. There's a tipping point where FOMO becomes unhealthy, but there is on the other side of that tipping point,
00:15:36
Speaker
the place where a child, because they're not in a WhatsApp group or whatever chat, I was going to say a Snapchat group, there aren't, I don't know, I don't do Snapchat, so I don't know it. So they miss social arrangements, actual in-person social arrangements that were arranged when they weren't there.
00:15:54
Speaker
So maybe those two, I don't have a problem with my child spending. If it was nine hours a day, I would have a problem. And I hope it's not, but I make an effort to make sure it isn't.
00:16:09
Speaker
but two hours a day is not a big deal to me. Should it be, really? Yeah, so I think, well, first of all, yeah, I mean, we know that is far below what the average amount of time that they are spending on phones. But I think that the difference is, so when you or I were younger, I mean, the landline, I'm sure you can remember. Exactly. Pulling that cable as long as it would possibly go to get away from any listening ears and having just hours and hours on the phone, especially girls, I think.
00:16:39
Speaker
And that was just an absolutely vital part of teenagers. So the way, so as you said, that social connection is absolutely vital. But what we've got now, and this is the difference with phones and those sort of WhatsApp groups,
00:16:54
Speaker
if your child is spending two hours a day speaking to their friends on on a phone where they're having actual conversations and so what we these are these sort of one to one conversations so what we call um they are high investment relationships
00:17:09
Speaker
And that's what we really want to be encouraging. So where you're having real conversations, real connections with people who you care about, they care about you. And if you have an argument, it's going to be within your benefit to try to resolve that because you're going to see them at school the next day or whatever that is. So what's happened with smartphones is that we have
00:17:35
Speaker
Yes, it's socializing, you know, a lot of it is also just watching, you know, those short form videos. But with the group chat, it's a lot of, obviously, we know with the sort of bullying and that it is a bully's dream, WhatsApp, and things like that. But you have, these are low investment relationships, we're having tons of connections all the time, whether that's on social media, people liking your posts,
00:17:58
Speaker
it's, you know, chatting with one person, you know, then you've got these group chats, you can easily leave a group, you can say something mean to someone, you can just be kicked out, you can join another group. So these relationships are sort of one to many, it's the kind of broadcasting type.
00:18:13
Speaker
which actually is not good for our mental health and we are we're not we are we evolved to be in small groups which are these you know high investment relationships where yeah it's you know that community is really important and so that's the thing so that with with a child having downtime of just two hours on their phone where they're in all these groups and on social media
00:18:38
Speaker
We know that this isn't, this doesn't benefit them. This isn't something, they might say that this is something they really want because they're super addictive as we know these apps, the way they're built, the algorithm, they want to keep our kids on the apps for as long as they possibly can.
00:18:54
Speaker
But I think that, yeah, that's the difference. It's not saying, oh, yes, you've got to get, you know, teenagers out kicking a ball around because I know that is extremely difficult. And that's why I think if they're having real connection with their, you know, with their friends, having phone calls, even a text message back and forth, which is why we say that, you know, the more basic phones really encourage real relationships. But a lot of the time we know that people will be interacting with strangers. So, you know, for girls, you know, predominantly when they're on phones, they'll be on
00:19:21
Speaker
things like TikTok, Instagram, Snap, you know, and it's sort of looking through a lot of content of strangers, people they're not really connected to, and then feeling that, you know, social comparison, feeling worse about themselves. And it's a lot about, you know, appearance.
00:19:37
Speaker
Whereas boys will tend to spend more time on video games and porn, you know, that's where they'll tend to spend their time on apps. And so again, you think, okay, you know, you might have a teenager who's going on a phone, but then they're looking a lot at, you know, porn or violent content, that is going to have a really big impact on them.
00:19:58
Speaker
Again, I can understand for parents who maybe have teenagers who do have kids who are on their phones and on think, oh, you know, I don't this this feels really stressful and worrying. I think it's about having those open conversations and asking, you know, how they're doing, because there are some really serious harms, you know, that are that are possible. And so I think that, you know, teenagers, even though it can feel like that kind of communication can be a bit of a breakdown, I think at that point.
00:20:24
Speaker
It's really important just to have that open door that any time you want to come to me, you're not going to be in trouble, not going to be, you know, have shame about things. You know, we can talk about these topics.
00:20:35
Speaker
Right. So that brings me to my main point on all of this. And I absolutely hear everything you're saying and the thought that my kids have seen porn, which of course they have, I know they will have, is distressing. But my main point with all of these conversations is we can't control every other parent. So
00:21:01
Speaker
On the playground, our kids are going to be able to see, or in the lunch queue, are going to be able to see what is on somebody else's device. That being the case, I'd rather my kids were in there from the start, seeing it on their own device
00:21:20
Speaker
at an age, and this is where I get really controversial, at an age where they're young enough to tell me all about what they're seeing so that I can help them learn about what they're seeing and how to navigate it and moderate the things for themselves. So if I was going to play devil's advocate and say, I'm going to give my five-year-old a smartphone,
00:21:44
Speaker
My logic around that would be my five-year-old tells me pretty much everything. When she's 15, she's not going to. So I've got a window of opportunity to help her learn how to use these devices responsibly.
Discussing Harmful Content with Children
00:22:00
Speaker
and understand what she's seeing online. Now, I'm not for a minute suggesting that we give a five-year-old access to the internet with all freedom. I would absolutely want to prevent them from seeing x-rated content and harmful stuff. And I know that I can't control all of that because stuff makes it through Instagram, despite the fact that they say they're squeaky clean.
00:22:26
Speaker
But I'm going to talk about a specific example. It was our local newspaper that was talking about a stabbing that had happened close to the school. And I think my son was 10 at the time. And it was the headline. And so it was just sitting on the kitchen counter. And one of his friends was there, and he read this headline.
00:22:55
Speaker
I said, yeah, okay, I've read that article, this happened, it's an isolated incident, the people were known to each other, it's not something you need to be afraid of, that sort of thing. And the other child's parent was really upset that he'd been able to see that headline in my house because she didn't want to have to talk to him about it, because she didn't think he was ready and shouldn't know about it.
00:23:20
Speaker
My take on this is our kids do know about things we don't want them to know. And we can't prevent that because they'll hear it from each other. Now, I didn't want my son going into school the next day and the hype being all over the school of, oh my God, did you hear so and so got stabbed? He was taken to hospital. I heard he nearly died and the guy's still got the knife. They haven't caught him. I'm like, no, I want my kids to straight away from me. No.
00:23:48
Speaker
what the score is so that they're safe and they feel able to handle the crap, quite frankly, that the other kids talk in school. So I'm not quite sure what my question is. How do you
00:24:04
Speaker
How do you mitigate, I suppose the best question here is how do you mitigate the fact that those phones, those videos, that information is going to be available to your kids if they want to get at it. Irrespective of whether we give them a smartphone or not.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, so absolutely. And my 10 year old daughter was in a choir rehearsal and was shown on someone's phone a beheading video, you know, and yeah, and so you absolutely, it's just one kid, you know, has a smartphone, it can easily, it can very easily happen and it does, you know, unfortunately.
00:24:36
Speaker
But I think that, yeah, so in the first instance, we know that early exposure to pornography is the biggest predictor for someone becoming a child sexual abuser later in life. This is one thing I believe we have to do everything to try and prevent young children from seeing porn when they don't understand what it is.
00:24:55
Speaker
Porn has changed enormously since we were young. So we know that 27% of all video content on the internet is pornographic. Of that video content, 87% has violence in it. So we've got the second most common cause of stroke for women in the UK under 40 is strangulation during sex. So violence has been so normalized in sex from kids seeing this content that we have a major, major issue on our hands.
00:25:25
Speaker
The other thing with kids seeing porn early is that, again, when we were younger in this play-based childhood generation, when boys wanted to, you know, they would start becoming teenagers, they would want to have sex, you know, and they would be
00:25:40
Speaker
have to go and speak to girls at the disco, have to ask them out for days, have to pluck up that courage and get over that nervousness to be able to have these conversations, to be able to ask girls out, because that's the only way they could get that. What we've got now, and this is what we've seen with Gen Z, is that they all have sex way later and less of it, because they can get that fix at home from watching porn.
00:26:06
Speaker
Now, with AI and virtual reality, that's only going to get more extreme, you know, so that it could be really that people are just going to feel less like they actually need to have real life relationships when they can get that need to met, you know, online. That's something that I'm really concerned about. I think that a lot of parents will say the same thing as you, I want to help them use them to
00:26:28
Speaker
smartphones to be able to navigate them at an early age so that we can teach them how to do this stuff, whereas the lines of communication may be sharp for a 15-year-old, you know, and it's much more difficult when they're going to be seeing this stuff anyway. So I think, yes, we do want to be having these conversations.
00:26:45
Speaker
earlier, but also being aware that a lot of we really do want to try and prevent as much as possible them, you know, being harmed by this kind of content. It's so easy for an adult to manipulate a child online. So we know that most of the, for example, child sexual abuse material that is on the internet is self generated.
00:27:07
Speaker
So this is by adults getting kids live streaming in their bedrooms at night and getting them to do things to themselves. So this is because it's very easy for an adult to manipulate a young child. We have the fastest growing crime against children is sex torsion.
00:27:27
Speaker
This has just gone absolutely crazy because it's an extremely easy way for criminal gangs to get money. And so they're not going to stop doing this. So yes, we want to have these lines of conversation open, but for a seven year old to try to understand if someone, you know, does this, you know, then this might be a warning, you know, whatever it is. And the thing is, as much as we try and teach them about all of this stuff, which we need to do, there's a huge lack of education.
00:27:53
Speaker
But it's moved so far. So by the time, you know, all the big tech put in regulations and, you know, try and prevent this stuff happening, they will have found another way. Because at the end of the day, if you've got an adult trying to manipulate a child, they're going to win every time, you know, because it's because they're adults, you know, and so I think that's the thing that we want to be sort of, you know, preventing, preventing kids, you know, being exposed to this content, because it can have a lifelong impact on them.
Challenges in Monitoring and Parental Controls
00:28:22
Speaker
So again, that's why I think we need to be pushing that back as long as possible so that they've got more maturity, more resilience to be able to handle this when they do see that. I had a parent who she'd set up her son's phone in a way that had no social media, no WhatsApp, taken the app store off, no Safari, no internet access, and was like, thought he was completely safe. And then he was on the bus home from school. And then his friends were just well, friends, peers were just air dropping.
00:28:52
Speaker
you know like a violent rape video to him on his own just over and over and over again air dropping it you know and so it's like however much we think oh i've set up the phone in a sort of safe way there's always a way around and all you need to do is google how to remove parental controls and you have full instructions of how to do it you know so
00:29:11
Speaker
Yeah, we well actually I was gonna say we love but we don't love my kids are still pretty aggrieved with me because I put an app on their phones when they were younger that limited the amount of time they could spend on specific things so gaming apps were all off by seven o'clock.
00:29:31
Speaker
I could gift them half an hour every so often on an app. And I had all sorts of controls in place for things like the social media apps. And they say two things to me. One, they figured out really quickly how to get past that. You just go onto the internet and log into YouTube and then you've got access to anything you want.
00:29:57
Speaker
Apparently, this was an app called R-Pact, which we do regularly laugh about because the reviews on the app store for R-Pact are all by 12 year olds who've been controlled by their parents who absolutely think it's a terrible app. But then there's all sorts of reviews telling you how to get past the controls. But the other serious point is that they still, and they're 19 and 16, they still, we can't see the funny side of this.
00:30:27
Speaker
feel that that was abusive of me to control their phones remotely. And they will say this to their friends and their friends are horrified that that's what we did, that we're bad parents. So having done that, I have queried with them, look, I know that iPhones, you can limit screen time. She said, yeah, limit screen time.
00:30:52
Speaker
but don't control which apps we've got access to. I'm like, but that's the most important thing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, I think, and again, that's this kind of generation of just maybe a little entitled, you know, and not seeing that actually as a parent.
00:31:08
Speaker
you don't have to do everything that your child likes or wants. And I think that kind of, and that, but I mean, I literally hear that argument from school counselors, but they love their phones. This is something that, and you're like, yeah, but just a heroin addict might love heroin. It doesn't mean that it's good for them. And so I think that,
00:31:26
Speaker
as parents, sometimes we have to make difficult decisions that our kids won't agree with, it fits for their best interests. And I think that that's one of the reasons why we say delay as long as possible, because we know that once you have given them that phone, it just becomes a constant source of conflict that they're like,
00:31:44
Speaker
I want more screen time. Oh, they've got around the parental controls. How did you do that? Or I'm not telling you, give me my phone back. I want you know, and so it's just, it's, yeah, it's very rare to meet parents of teenagers who say, oh, well, yes, you know, that they they in the kitchen, it goes off at night at eight o'clock in the drawer, and they don't take it to their bedrooms. And you know, it's all we have great boundaries, and everyone's happy. I'm yet to meet a family. No, it's not true. No, it's not. And so I think
00:32:08
Speaker
if we can just make it easier for kids and parents and just say, look, you can have a device that you can call your friends, you can text them, you can call me, you can listen to your music, but you know, you're not going to have via social media and WhatsApp and access to the internet because they are still children and they're not able to self-regulate. And yeah, I'm sure you have heard as well, but so many stories have
00:32:33
Speaker
parents of teenagers who they've really tried to put these boundaries in but they're just it's such an addictive device you know it's not meant to be used you know in short amounts of time it's meant to be to keep you on the app 24-7 yeah yeah yeah no it's true and now you look I'm talking as though I've I've had no problems with smartphones everything's fine my kids are perfect it's not true I think this is a universal parenting issue
00:33:00
Speaker
I just, I really struggle with smartphones to blame, social medias to blame. It's all, and I see what that is. Oh shit, I can't control this. I don't like it. I'm scared for my kids. I'm just going to blame somebody else so that I don't have to feel bad about my choices around my kids and their smartphones.
00:33:21
Speaker
So we're there already, let's say, and actually this is another point. Well, you're saying 14 is a good age. I know somebody who's holding back until 17, she thinks. And I wonder how possible that's going to be and how much it will make her child lock down there.
Collective Action to Delay Smartphone Access
00:33:48
Speaker
they're, well, locked down their relationship with their parents. So they're not able to communicate. And so there's so much that goes on, on smartphones. And this child will, this teenager will know about that from their friends. And
00:34:03
Speaker
probably will rebel and therefore will not tell their, I think it's going to ruin their relationship. Now that's really judgmental of me and they may have a whole scenario where it turns out to be brilliant for them all. But for me, that would have ruined my relationship with my kids because they would have basically, if our kid, my view is if our kids really want to do something, they will find a way to do it behind our backs when we say no.
00:34:30
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I think that's why this has to be done in communities. It has to be done with other families. If, you know, I am the only person to delay in Edinburgh, in my school, you know, with my kids and everyone else is getting smartphones, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible. I would still do that, but I can, you know, it's very, very hard speaking to families who have done that.
00:34:55
Speaker
Yes, it has caused issues. And that's why I think it almost needs to be, you know, speaking to other families as early as possible, you know, and saying, you know, what are you thinking about SmartVince? I'm really concerned about this. Lots of new data has come out. Do you want to delay this together? And so if you've got just even one other family where you know, okay, no matter what you can say, well, you know, little Johnny hasn't got one either, you know, you've both got the Nokia's or whatever it is, it makes it so much easier.
00:35:22
Speaker
But I think that we are at a tipping point where these kids from Gen Z, they are saying, I wish I hadn't got a smartphone so young. I wish that no one had TikTok, but I can't be the only one to get rid of it. Exactly. So I think that they acknowledge that this hasn't been great for them. And so we have to listen to that. And I think that everyone universally agrees that we are in this youth
00:35:48
Speaker
global youth mental health crisis and universally across all the sort of child protection agencies, charities, everyone can see that smartphones and social media are harming children but it's about what do we do now and that's where we differ because some people will say well we have to just go hard on big tech we can't let them get away with this you know they've got to protect our children from all of this stuff you know they're making so much money they've made them so addictive
00:36:13
Speaker
And so and other people like, well, we need government regulation. And I just think actually, we've got a kind of collective action problem. We need schools, parents, government, big tech, everyone to work together to prioritize children and childhood again, instead of it just being about profit and whatever's easiest. And so I think that, yeah, if your child is the only one to not get a smartphone, it's going to be a challenge. It does. It's not impossible.
00:36:37
Speaker
And I think that, you know, from speaking to some families who have delayed, their kids have then come back and really thank them later in life for delaying. I didn't get a TV until I was 10. And I remember everyone talking about what happened in EastEnders and stuff and feeling really left out.
00:36:53
Speaker
But, you know, then I think, well, actually, you know, later in life, I was really grateful for that, because it made me take a lot more initiative and be more creative and just have more kind of get up and go than maybe some of my peers. And so I think that, yeah, I think, you know, it is a balance. But I think that we know that once we give them that smartphone, I mean, a lot of people say that's if you want to end your relationship with your child, give them a smartphone.
00:37:21
Speaker
because there's definitely a sort of before and after. And yeah, just what we know that they're going to be exposed to and the impact that's going to have on them. And we know that a lot of teenagers will say, oh, I'll really protect my parents from what I see on my phone because they'd be horrified if they knew what I'd see. And so, you know, if you have Instagram and your child has Instagram, what the that your experience on that app is going to be completely different.
00:37:48
Speaker
And so it's almost a sort of full sense of security. Because if you're going through Instagram and just seeing, you know, cooking shows or holidays, you know, you're gonna think, well, this is fine. This is what they're seeing. And so I always say to parents, well, look, you download Snap, have it for a week, set it up as a 10 year old girl, get some stock images, pop it on if you don't want to put your own child in it, and just use that app as you think your child would use it.
00:38:11
Speaker
then after a week evaluate if you still want your child to do that. So every parent who I know who's done that has gone, oh my goodness, no way am I giving them that because then they see how much they get contacted by, you know, sexual predators and all you know, it's just it's horrific, the kind of content they see. And so a lot of the time it might not be
00:38:30
Speaker
so immediately explicit or something, but it's just something that's very, very dark and something that we wouldn't want our
Social Media's Influence on Youth
00:38:37
Speaker
kids to see. And so that I think is very misleading. Yeah. We have Facebook, they have Facebook. It's just the same. It's not at all. And in terms of the, yeah. No, that's a really good point.
00:38:50
Speaker
the version of Instagram that I see is not the version of Instagram that my kids see. And I know that because my kids do talk to me about what they see online sometimes. And my son shows me hilarious videos of things that have gone wrong and very cute videos of baby animals crossing the road. Because those are the things that he's into car crashes and cute animals. And there's probably other things that he's into as well that he doesn't show me.
00:39:20
Speaker
that's not what I see. And I find myself going, well, how do I get to see those? Well, I see it, you know, people cooking and talking about mental health. Oh, that's because that's what I'm interested in. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's, I mean, like the algorithm knows us better than we know ourselves. Yeah, what's going to hold our attention. And so
00:39:38
Speaker
with that as well but also in particular for girls you know it will just take us to more and more extreme content because it knows this is what will keep us longer and so that's how you often have you know teenagers who are sort of you know they've just broken up with their girlfriend or boyfriend they're on the apps and they start looking through breakup videos and then it suddenly goes to depression and then it's suicidal content and then how to and then you should kill yourself and like
00:40:02
Speaker
And, you know, this just unfortunately happens all the time, because the content will just get more and more extreme. And they know that's how you know, they want that's what they care about keeping you on the app where they can make money off you. And that's the thing as well for kids, I think they're quite unaware that it's like, you don't pay to have Instagram or Snap, it's a free app for you because you're the product.
00:40:23
Speaker
You're the product. Yeah. Yeah. The customers are the advertisers and that's what they care about, keeping their customers happy. Customers always write, you know, that's what they care about. So as long as they can keep you on it, but you are slave labor for them, free child slave labor. You're not getting paid for working for them. And so it's really for kids to understand they are being completely taken advantage of.
00:40:46
Speaker
And that is something that really we should be angry about, angry about as parents, but also angry about as kids, you know, it's like, and so they might feel, oh, well, you know, I get to have this app for free, but it's like, you're not having it for free. It's something that's taking from you, taking, taking, taking.
00:41:02
Speaker
not only in terms of what, you know, exposure, but just in your life, all the things that you could be doing. And this isn't just to be like, oh, the good old days, but as I said, even just something like maps, you know, those life skills that they're missing out on. Yeah, and it's just, you know, they struggle so much, I think socially with so many things. And yeah, I think it does always come back to social media and smartphones. Yeah, I hear
00:41:31
Speaker
You know, it's a really compelling point and I hear a lot of what you're saying. I still want to go back to the kids who want to text you because they don't feel comfortable speaking to you even though you're in the same room. I wonder if that is...
00:41:55
Speaker
Is it a chicken and egg situation? So for me, I'm thinking how great that they've got their phone and they can tell you via a text. Because if that's the starting point of being able to start opening up about a problem, that's better than sitting there silently because they've got no other way to tell you. And I know there's art and there's writing it down on a piece of paper. There are other ways, but
00:42:21
Speaker
I do think for the socially anxious teenagers, social media is a good thing. I get that it's also a bad thing, but you can be socially anxious before you've got a smartphone and a smartphone can be a useful tool.
Parenting Challenges in the Digital Age
00:42:40
Speaker
So I do get what you're saying. I just think it's so massively complicated. There was another point I was going to make, but I've lost it. So it's funny because I think that's the thing. It feels so enormous and so complex. But actually, I feel it's actually quite simple, actually. And I think that kids, what they need is confidence.
00:43:08
Speaker
you know, independence, they need to feel that they are able to handle the world and life. And I feel like a lot of the time they're sort of being told that, you know, you can't handle this, you know, just focus on your mental health. And, you know, if you're not able to do it, don't worry. And so actually, a lot of this just always sort of focusing on their negative emotions.
00:43:28
Speaker
um, isn't maybe serving them. And I think that, um, and that's where parents, so again, from, from where we were young, um, the things that we were able to out, you know, able to do going out in, in the community on our own things that parents wouldn't dream of today. Cause they think, Oh, you'll be kidnapped and you know, there's pedophiles everywhere. Um, and actually it's, you know, the safest it's ever been. And so I think that that's one thing that we can do instead. So for the child who is the only one in the class without a smartphone,
00:43:56
Speaker
Well, what can we do to help that child, you know, feel more resilient to this situation? It's giving that independence. It's, can you go to the shops for me and, you know, pick this up, whatever, you know, can you, I mean, I always think, you know, saying to, yeah, kids, look through a recipe book, decide what you want to cook. You go to the shops, buy the ingredients, you come back and cook it all for the family. And something like that just makes them, you know, just grow so much. And so if we can give them more independence,
00:44:24
Speaker
and help them do things and support them to do things. That is the easiest thing to combat anxiety is to, you know, get out and start doing these things that give you fear rather than saying, don't worry, stay in your bedroom on your own, be on your phone, because we know that isn't going to make them feel better. And so often the act of that kind of scrolling, watching those short videos,
00:44:47
Speaker
is something that is used almost to self soothe when kids are feeling anxious, but then it becomes the thing that makes them feel anxious. So they get stuck in this loop where they're scrolling because they're anxious, but they're anxious because they're scrolling and it just kind of, you know, can kind of go on like that. So I think there are 100% benefits, you know, to smartphones, especially for adults, you know, I think that, yeah, there are brilliant things, but that's why I think it's more age and stage, you know, you don't
00:45:16
Speaker
pass your driving test and go and get a new Tesla. We first learn to ride a bike and then you might get a rusty Nissan Micro something first. And I think that what's happening now is kids are going from nothing straight to an adult device, which just isn't necessary. No. Well, you've just reminded me my other point was that I made it kind of earlier
00:45:38
Speaker
the reason for having it younger is so that you can help them navigate as a parent through the right way and the appropriate way to handle these devices. I'm wondering if this is a discrete generation thing. I'm wondering if it's our generation of parents. Well, I say our, I mean mine.
00:45:58
Speaker
because we didn't grow up with the internet at all. I resisted emails in my first job because I thought they were just a waste of time. And the only reason I'm comfortable with it is because it's where I made my business for a while. But the majority of parents of teenagers right now didn't grow up with smartphones or much on the internet.
00:46:22
Speaker
And so they don't know how to help their child learn to navigate it responsibly. Whereas when our kids become parents, they will know. So I wonder if they might manage it better than we have perhaps.
00:46:40
Speaker
Um, possibly, I think, I mean, it's changing so fast with AI. I mean, smartphones are going to look completely different in five years. And so I think there's going to be a lot of innovation in this field. But as we know, it's those bad actors are going to keep on evolving faster than we can sort out that kind of regulation. And I think the, there can be, you know, it can be overwhelming for parents trying to understand how to have these conversations with their child, trying to educate their child
00:47:06
Speaker
So even something like financial sex distortion, which is just becoming so common. I mean, we know in 2018 from a study of 15 to 20 year olds, only 5% of kids interviewed had experienced sex distortion or someone trying to extort them with images. And then in 2023, 47%
00:47:25
Speaker
had experienced it. So this is the, you know, the biggest growing crime against children. And so, but this is something that so many parents have never even heard of, you know, they don't even know they're like, well, what is that all my kids would never send images to anyone, they're not, you know, it's like, this happens to everyone, this isn't it doesn't, and it's very, very fast how you know, and I mean, I've spoken to so many parents who
00:47:44
Speaker
Unfortunately, their kids have committed suicide over this. It's just, yeah, it's a really, really horrific thing. So I think educating yourself is really, really important as a parent, having those open conversations, but also being aware this is quite, it's quite a task load, you know, to do this. And most parents don't have the bandwidth for that. And so I think that for parents who've already got a smartphone for their child, asking them
00:48:08
Speaker
How do you feel this is impacting your life? Do you feel like this is something that's positive in your life? Because can we do a halfway house? Can we look at different things?
00:48:19
Speaker
some things I say to parents is sometimes, you know, this isn't about getting rid of their iPhone, let them have their iPhone, they can have it, you know, at home, but how about they have, you know, a more simple device, like a light phone or Nokia, they can put their sim in that. And that's what they use, you know, when they're going out of the house, when they're maybe at school. And so, you know, just to have so they can have a bit of a rest from it almost, you know, or can they have, you know, they've got, you know, the family laptop or iPad at home, where they can still be in the WhatsApp groups, they can still have their social media there, but it's
00:48:49
Speaker
you know, more likely that for a parent, it's easier to monitor that than a smartphone that goes into their bedroom. So it's the smartphones at night in bedrooms is the most dangerous thing for kids. And so we know that so many kids will be on their phones when parents think they're asleep and all of this. So yeah, I think that having those conversations, but at the same time, in terms of
00:49:15
Speaker
teaching kids how to use them safely and thinking we need to give it younger when those lines of communication are more open.
Educating Kids on Safe Technology Use
00:49:25
Speaker
It's not difficult to learn how to use Instagram. This is something that, and also because of how fast it's changing. So thinking I need to teach them this now so that they can work it out better.
00:49:38
Speaker
Again, their ability to be manipulated by adults for every year younger that they are, it's going to be easier for them to be manipulated. And they won't understand that. And so I think a lot of the time, a lot of the education that we give to kids, if someone does this, this is what you need to do. They don't even know it's happening, you know, because they're too young.
00:49:57
Speaker
And so, and there, you know, I don't want to have, you know, a lot of these conversations with my kids about the kind of stuff that I've seen on 10 year olds, TikTok accounts, because I'm traumatized by it, and I don't want to talk to them about it. And so I think that, yeah, as parents, we, if we decide, okay, we really want to give our kids a smartphone, it's first thinking, what is the reason for that? Is there an alternative that I can, that I can give them? If I want to keep them safe, if I want to keep track them,
00:50:25
Speaker
you know, they want to listen to music, whatever that is, if we can do that with an alternative device, shouldn't we all be starting with that first? And then thinking, okay, they're using that well, what's their maturity like with that device? How responsible are they with it? Apart from the fact that these devices are super cheap compared to a smartphone. And then as they get older, let's you know, then I mean, we say like, from at least the age of 14, you know, then they can get a smartphone. And then we can start introducing some of these other things. But
00:50:55
Speaker
Yeah, social media, yeah, I just feel like overall it has harmed children. Yes, there are benefits, but overall, and by kids' own admissions, they say, you know, they feel worse for being on the apps. And what we want our children to have is real relationships, high investment, you know, sort of low exit relationships where they can't just leave immediately, never speak to that person again, which is what happens online.
00:51:23
Speaker
We don't want them speaking to strangers all the time, whether that's on video games, on their phones. We want them to have real, genuine human connections. And I think, yeah, that's the thing that smartphones doesn't really help with. Yeah.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, you make a really convincing point and I could argue with you about it forever, and I absolutely see what you're saying. What do you want people to do? Because we're kind of running out of time
Conclusion and Parental Guidance
00:51:51
Speaker
now. What do you want people to do as a result of having listened to this podcast?
00:51:57
Speaker
Yeah, so I think in the first instance, it's have these conversations, you know, with your friends, with your peers. And yeah, just, you know, if you have not yet given your child a smartphone, I would say talk to friends and just ask them where they're at with this, you know, what are they thinking? Are they concerned? Are they aware of the research? Are they aware of the alternatives?
00:52:17
Speaker
And if they want to delay with you, then great. And so on our website, which is delaysmartphones.org.uk, you can go and sign the pledge to commit to delaying. And I think that you can do that. You can look up your school to see however many people have pledged to delay in your own school. And then we also have a volunteer ambassador program where if you want to get involved and make a bigger impact within your own community,
00:52:45
Speaker
you can get your own pack of research cards that you can share with other parents. And it's really to be able to have these conversations in a non-judgmental way, to just share the research, find out what people are thinking. And many people are completely unaware that there are alternative devices available. And so even if you don't want to delay, can we say, let's have your first device be a basic device, just so we can normalize these phones again for kids
00:53:13
Speaker
You can get for 20 pounds a new Nokia phone that has no WhatsApp, no social media, no internet access, just has a radio, calls, texts, calculator, torch, the basic things.
00:53:24
Speaker
But it's everything that they need. And I think that so often with kids, they're just delighted to get their own phone. They don't actually care what brand it is, what it does. If they can call people they can text, they're so happy. And so I think we're almost, yeah, just assuming that kids wouldn't be happy with this, but they are. And it's so easy to just stick a tracker on the back of these if that's something that you want to do. And so I think, yes, it's having those conversations and then thinking,
00:53:51
Speaker
Can we make a more intentional decision about this rather than our kids just finding an old iPhone in a drawer?
00:53:58
Speaker
I often say that, you know, we'll do sort of more research on buying a new toaster than we will on the first phone we give our child. And this is, you know, it is one of the biggest parenting decisions we'll ever make. And so I think it's something that we want to do it in a considered way, you know, weigh it up properly. I think that a lot of the time, you know, kids will get ticked off or something because they've just downloaded it. Parents don't even know how to use this app and they'll sort of laugh and go,
00:54:23
Speaker
Oh, I don't know anything about that. And I'm like, well, don't you, you probably should. So again, if you want to give your child snap or TikTok, download it as a child, act like that child, and then, you know, experience what their experience would be, and then evaluate after a week, see the kind of, you know, messages you get. And if you think after that point, yes, this is going to be okay for my child, then, you know, do that, you know, whilst importing them. And then I think the other thing is really just to have
00:54:50
Speaker
those open conversations. Know that you tell your child over and over again that the door's always open. It doesn't matter if I'm cooking, driving, whatever I'm doing, you can come to me at any point. If you've seen something online that's confused you, has frightened you, that you're concerned about, I'm always, always here. And also about speaking to strangers online, talking to them about sex torsion, how common this is now. And just that no one who's a stranger should be trusted online ever.
00:55:17
Speaker
and really explain to them how these criminal gangs work and that it's just, this can happen to anyone and educating their friends and things about that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Hannah. That was really interesting debate and conversation and you've raised so many really good points. I will put the link to the website. Is there anywhere else on social media that you'd like me to link to?
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah, so it's delay smartphones on Instagram and on Facebook, yeah.
00:55:51
Speaker
Okay. Ironic that question, given what we've just been talking about. I know, but I'm a grown up. You're a grown up, that's the thing. And that's the thing as well, because people will say to me, although I bet you've got an iPhone, I'm like, yes, I do. Yes, I use it for my parking and navigation and banking and everything. But do you know what? That's like a 12 year old doesn't need to pay for parking, you know? They don't need these things. So I think, yeah, there's definitely a time where it's very helpful and social media can be great when you're an adult. And you know, I think, but yeah.
00:56:21
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. This has been great. I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much for listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out, as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say.
00:56:46
Speaker
If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. If you have a story or a suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at teenagekickspodcast at gmail.com or message me on Instagram. I'm, I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey.
00:57:16
Speaker
See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now.