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Ep. 95: How to change your relationship with your teenager image

Ep. 95: How to change your relationship with your teenager

S8 E95 · Teenage Kicks Podcast
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Today's guest had an unusual childhood, with a modelling career as a child, and winning Miss Spain at the age of 17. She grew up in the limelight and with a hectic professional schedule. She also attended boarding school in a different country to her family. 

I talk to Lorena  about how a life in the limelight from a young age has influenced her parenting styles and what she teaches her kids about achieving your goals and the reality of success. 

Who is Lorena Bernal?

Born in Argentina, Lorena moved to Spain as a young child and her modelling career kicked off when she was just 7, culminating in her being crowned Miss Spain as a teenager in 1999. She then went on to become a successful actress in Hollywood before moving to the UK with her family and pivoting her career behind the scenes to certify as a life coach and mindfulness practitioner as well as establish her company, Live Love Better. She now balances her career with writing her first book and raising her three sons.

Find out more on Lorena's website, and at Live Love Better, her coaching and mental health community.  

More teenage parenting from Helen Wills:

Helen wills is a counsellor, a parent coach, and a teen mental health podcaster and blogger at Actually Mummy, a resource for midlife parents of teens.

Thank you for listening! Subscribe to the Teenage Kicks podcast to hear new episodes. If you have a suggestion for the podcast please email [email protected].

You can find more from Helen Wills on parenting teenagers on Instagram and Twitter @iamhelenwills.

For information on your data privacy please visit Zencastr's policy page

Please note that Helen Wills is not a medical expert, and nothing in the podcast should be taken as medical advice. If you're worried about yourself or a teenager, please seek support from a medical professional.

Episode produced by Michael J Cunningham.

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Transcript

Introduction and Shifting Perspectives

00:00:00
Speaker
We should shift the point of view ah from which we look at our kids. We look at them as something we need to i tailor, we need to fix, we need to ah teach them. I think we need to shift that point of view towards we need to learn from them. Welcome to the Teenage Kicks podcast where we take the fear out of parenting or becoming a teenager.
00:00:38
Speaker
I'm Helen Wills and every week I talk to someone who had a difficult time in the teenage years but came out the other side in a good place and has insight to offer to parents and young people who might be going through the same. Lorena Bernal had quite an unusual childhood. Born in Argentina, she moved to Spain as a young child and started a modelling career when she was just seven. She was later crowned Miss Spain as a teenager and then went on to become a successful actress in Hollywood before moving to the UK with her family. She's now a life coach and a mindfulness practitioner and a mum of three boys.
00:01:19
Speaker
I'm going to ask Lorena how a life in the limelight from a young age has influenced her parenting styles and what she teaches her kids about achieving goals and the realities of success at a young age. Lorena, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. Wow. what ah well I can't imagine what your childhood was like. Miss Spain as a teenager. ah I've got so many questions ah relating to body image and self-esteem, but I want to hear it from you.

Lorena's Multicultural Upbringing

00:01:55
Speaker
What was it like growing up for you? um It was a roller coaster, really. It was very intense um and very rich because I grew up
00:02:09
Speaker
in different cultures um together. I grew up in Spain, but at home I felt we were in Argentina because my family just moved from there um to Spain to to find a better future for their kids. right ah So at home we were in Argentina. At school we were in France because I attended a French school. um And on the street I was in Spain or in the Basque Country. So just the cultural ah thing was already very intense. Yeah. yeah I mean, why a French school? if ah ah It's not relevant to what we're going to talk about, but why a French school if you were in Spain?
00:02:54
Speaker
Well, to be honest, it was the best school in the city. okay and And my parents didn't have the money to afford it because we were a humble family. and um But my dad was very clear. He wanted a good future for his kids. So he went to the French school and um offered his work. on on anything, he was a plumber, he was an electrician, he was a handyman. So he worked at the school and we could study there. So that that was the beginning of the reason why we studied there. Yeah, oh gosh, so he was very driven. This was all about trying to push his kid push the kids forward to be better to have a better future than they'd have, I i imagine. Yes, totally.
00:03:44
Speaker
Gosh, very, very driven parents. I've got questions about that too. How did it feel for you as you hit the teenage years? Well, when I was 14, that school ended and I had to, or continue my studies in Spanish in San Sebastian in Spain, or to move to a boarding school in France to continue the the French system. So I decided to go to France to a boarding school at 14 and um and around the same time I was all full on on my modeling career in Spain, so I would travel back and forth while I was studying.
00:04:28
Speaker
it was It was complex because it wasn't the very common back then to be a model at that age. no For me it was really like a game because I really enjoyed it and it was something I wanted to do since I was born almost, to be an actress, to be a model, like to be an artist. At the same time, I wanted to be a psychologist. So that was like two real passions that I had since I was born. So in my family, they embraced that and they supported that constantly. But at school, um the other kids not always made my life ah easy. Right. um Because it wasn't common and I guess they
00:05:18
Speaker
they took it sometimes as a target. um But anyway, yes. Well, i'm I'm just thinking

Discovering Independence and Resilience

00:05:27
Speaker
an Argentinian model in from Spain um or a Spanish model from Argentina in a French boarding school, that's already a really unusual set of circumstances. And boarding school on its own is something it's something that I'd really love to talk to someone about on the podcast because I ah i think
00:05:51
Speaker
I think it's, well I'm just very interested in what that experience is like as a teenager and a young child actually because I know lots of people who've really struggled, ah really benefited from a boarding school but really struggled because of being away from home in that setting. How did that feel for you? Yeah, I mean, I can see there are many different type of experiences in a boarding school. There's not just one way of dealing with it. ah Some people really have a good time. Some people have the worst time in their lives. Some people have a very bad time, but eventually when they're older, they kind of are grateful for those bad times because they grow them stronger, not for everyone.
00:06:35
Speaker
hu um For me, the fact of being away from home wasn't really a problem. I was a very independent kid. um And I always felt the support of my parents on my soul, I would say. Like I didn't need them physically close to me and ah or talking to me every day because back then we didn't have phones so you wouldn't talk to them during the week. Yeah. um But I mean, I remember it as a moment where I really found my identity or who I was or who I thought I was actually back then. um It's very important to have friends.
00:07:26
Speaker
good friends because if you don't, you you can feel lonely or or alone and that can kill you or that can make you the strongest person ever. um I didn't have many friends because as I said, they didn't make my life very easy. ah But I had a few which were my like my core friends and I also developed a sense of
00:07:59
Speaker
I can do this on my own like I have myself and I really know what I want and I i really know who I am and these people around me don't have a clue of like what is inside me or what I want and I'm gonna waste my time to explain to them who I am or what I want. So um I developed a ah very strong sense of self, which helped me a lot when a few years later at 17 I became like a famous person. um And it helped me a lot to deal with all of that. So I'm kind of very grateful to that experience.
00:08:43
Speaker
Right, I really like that idea of a strong sense of self. I think that's something that a lot of teenagers struggle with because it's a time when ah we're going through, and i'm I'm using we because yes, I was once a teenager too, we've all been there. and And I remember it very clearly, everyone at that age, whether they own up to it or not, is wondering who they are and trying to figure out where they fit. And actually, we've talked just recently on them an episode with Cary Grant about um fitting in versus belonging and and how how belonging is
00:09:23
Speaker
more more important than fitting in. But teenagers tend to try to fit in because it feels safe if you fit in a group. So I think this sense of developing a sense of self is, I think it's quite unusual. And you did that, you say, through only having a select group of friends and not wanting to waste time explaining yourself to others. What also helped in my case is that there was no way I would fit because my story was very different to anyone else's. I was from a different country. I was raised on a different culture. ah The struggle of my parents ah economically and to make a life
00:10:10
Speaker
wasn't known around me like the other people he didn't go through that. so So there was no way I could try to fit in or belong because I was different. So that wasn't my goal. My goal was was to, I think, just live who I was and and and present myself um by who I was. So there was a fitting in and a belonging with myself. um
00:10:41
Speaker
And i I think I developed a huge sense of an inner world that I think we all have when we are little kids with our imagination, we are dreams, but we start losing it as we grow up and as we try to be like the others or to fit in, we kind of lose that inner world that is actually our true self. So when you don't try to fit in and you trust that that inner world is good enough and is going to accompany you and you trust that confidently, um you develop it and it accompanies you everywhere. So you don't need the approval or the or the company of others unless those others are the right people.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. You're so right.

Fame and Inner World Realization

00:11:32
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about becoming Miss Spain and how that helped you. Well, I wanted to be an actress since I was very little. and The modeling was more about having fun and earning some money to for for my things. um The Miss Spain contest was a way for me to to reach Madrid, which was which was the capital of the country, where all the
00:12:02
Speaker
series films and television was going on. There was no way, no other way for me to access Madrid. I didn't have the money. I was young. Right. So there was this contest, Miss Miss contest. And I said, OK, I'm going to go. I know I'm not going to win because I'm. I'm young and the and I was shorter than the average ah Miss Baines before. So I said, I'm going to go enjoy the experience and maybe this ah put me closer to my real goal. yeah Well, it did. I won the the local ah contest and then I went to the final in Madrid and I won.
00:12:46
Speaker
and the What the night before I was an unknown 17 year old studying in France in a boarding school and the morning the next morning I was one of the most famous people in the country. Yeah, because back then this was 1999 Miss Spain in Spain was yes quite a big deal. I remember watching um miss ah Miss Britain, Miss England, Miss UK, I don't know what it was, but in our version of it and then Miss World as a child. I mean, i'm so I wouldn't want my daughter to watch those things growing up now, but ah i I remember being obsessed with it.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, it was a big thing. It was a big thing. And it was a very good opportunity for young girls that wanted to be in the entertainment industry to reach that world. Because if you were born or grew up in a small town or a small village, it was very hard to access the that industry. a i was ah a and ah quick way to get there. Yeah. So then did the all of the the kind of television and film contracts just come rolling in or was it still hard work? Well, for me, it was a little different than from the others because I was a model since I was seven and I studied drama. I started when I was 11. So I had been preparing myself for this career since I was very young.
00:14:20
Speaker
um the So obviously I would say that everywhere. So the first year you kind of act as Miss Spain on everything, but after the first year I continued working because I was ready for it, I knew I wanted it, and they gave me the chance to prove if I really had what I needed to have. and Yeah. It also closes some, some doors because obviously and back then, especially to have won a beauty contest wouldn't give you necessarily the talent to be an actress or to be a TV host. yeah But at least I had the chance to prove it and to to show that I, apparently I could do it.
00:15:10
Speaker
So you talked a little bit about what ah needing resilience and this sense of self to get through what happened as a result of becoming Miss Spain. Can you tell us how how that how it felt? I mean, I'm sure there were feelings of elation and excitement, but was it also tough? Honestly, for me it wasn't. I took that really as a gift, as a present from life. I didn't have the pressure to deliver because
00:15:46
Speaker
I was happy before having all that. It's not that I put on that the weight of my happiness or of the finding myself or of the fulfilling myself. I was already happy and fulfilled and enjoying my life. Right. um So whatever was coming, I would embrace it happily. um the What happened to me was a rediscovery of myself, actually, because when I was and dont know on the catwalk or on photo shoots or um showing my physical beauty, I really started to be aware of, hold on, this is not me. They are not seeing me.
00:16:36
Speaker
Right. So what I thought was what I was, what I wanted to do became something that was showing me that I was something else. So I started to feel especially with the modeling side, that I wouldn't belong to that world um because they were just stopping after seeing my my outside. And I had a lot inside of me.
00:17:10
Speaker
So people only saw the physical attributes of you and not who you really were inside. So this is when you realized that when I was aware of my inner world and my inner identity before I had it, but I wasn't aware. Now I can speak about it. looking at it from this point of view but back then obviously i wasn't aware but i became aware. That's why i turned a little bit my path into only acting which helped me to develop ah that passion i had for emotions for for human beings because i had to.
00:17:57
Speaker
analyze the characters and analyze the emotions and looking for reasons why they would do this and the drive of the characters and all that world was more fulfilling and I felt more myself than in the modeling or photo shoots or covers of magazines, even if it was the best magazine in in in the world. So it was ah ah it was a great discovery ah of my inner world. It was very, very amazing.
00:18:29
Speaker
There's something there that I just want to highlight about physical appearance versus what's really going on in the inside. Because I think that not just girls, ah boys as well, um a lot of teenagers are naturally very concerned with how they look and possibly put more importance on that than they do on who they really are inside. in you as ah As a live coach, I know you've got strategies.
00:19:04
Speaker
I want to bring some of those in now. Do you have any suggestions for young people today for how they can make that transition from only being focused on external appearance to noticing and projecting who they really are instead?

Teenagers and Self-Discovery

00:19:23
Speaker
Yes, I think the first step is to find out really who you really are. um Unfortunately, The kids don't have always the example from their adults um because adults are not really friends with their inner world. Well, exactly. It's not just teenagers, is it? It's us too. It's the parents as well.
00:19:46
Speaker
It's especially us, actually. And when the kid is young and he's naked around people unashamed and he's speaking their truth unashamed and they're being noisy and they're being joyful and they're being themselves, we are the ones who ask them to hide that curiosity, that honesty, that body. And not only we're telling them to hide that, but we are showing them that we are hiding it too because our kids see ourselves at home being one way and they see ourselves with our friends, with other people wearing our masks. So the example we are giving them is not necessarily the best one. So how can we ask them when they are teenagers, right?
00:20:40
Speaker
to show themselves or to be who they are, if first of all, we haven't opened the window for them to discover who they are. And when we haven't even opened the the door to ourselves, to who we really are. ah in order to model to them um that way of living. So it's not the work we need to do only with the teenagers. It's a necessary work we need to do with adults too. Because at the end of the day, they learn from us. They feel us, they observe us. And if we show them how, instead of telling them lessons that we haven't learned,
00:21:22
Speaker
we are making a ah better job, I think, ah for them. So it's ah it's a ah dual work. Yeah. No, that's a really good point. I was just thinking as I asked that first question, I was thinking of another one. the what What would you advise parents? Because mostly this is going to be parents listening to this podcast. What would you advise parents who are concerned ah about their their teenagers? i don't want to use the word obsession because it's pejorative and derogatory but
00:21:57
Speaker
focus and fixation on how they look, their physical appearance. So the parents of the 14-year-old boy who only wants to spend all his time at the gym, or the parents of the 13-year-old girl who is insistent on wearing a full face of heavy makeup to school every morning, and they're worried that that that's their child's main focus. What would you advise those parents to do? Well, it's a complex thing, not easy to answer, in just ah an answer. But I would start with doing three things at the same time. One thing is to validate whatever the kid is feeling or doing instead of saying this is wrong. What you're doing is wrong. Don't do this. You're getting obsessed. you du to that No, no, no, no.
00:22:54
Speaker
By saying that, we are building a wall between our kids and ourselves. They are not feeling seen, heard, recognized. They feel invalidated. They feel, my mom have no has no clue of what I'm going through or what I want. So you're building a wall instead of building a bridge with your kid. At the same time that you don't say no, but you say yes and you accompany them in their world, to do a job of trying to really observe them and find out where that is coming from, where that obsession is coming from. Is it coming from insecurity? Is it coming from lack of emotional support? Is it coming from um wanting love? Where is does it come from? Because not for everyone, it comes from the same place.
00:23:55
Speaker
And at the same time, work on what that is triggering in you. How do you feel by seeing your child doing that right that you don't like?
00:24:10
Speaker
Because if you feel a failure as a mom or as a dad, if you feel that you lost the control of of your child and and you're scared and you talk to them from that fear or from that insecurity or from that ah lack of control, nothing that you tell them will reach the right place. So it's a job we need to do like in the different layers at the same time. Right. So what should we be doing about our own feelings? Because I'm completely with you. This is about our issues rather than our kids' issues.

Parental Trust and Understanding

00:24:53
Speaker
And if we don't deal with our own issues then ah ah and ah and we can continue to try to control, hold on, keep things as they are, resist, change, growth, um then we will just we won't prevent our children from living an independent adult life. or from getting into scrapes, we will achieve a broken relationship where our kids don't want to spend time with us. So what should we be doing for ourselves? There are a few things we can do. One is trust their wisdom. Trust our kids' wisdom.
00:25:35
Speaker
Because if you remember when you were a teenager, you had some wisdom inside of you. You didn't need your parents to tell you everything or where to go or what to say. You knew. So first of all, trust them, right? And at the same time, work on yourself and use your kid and the emotions that you're feeling when you're, you're seeing your child doing whatever they're doing that you don't like and look inside your triggers.
00:26:12
Speaker
Normally what we discover is a sense of insecurity, a sense of if I don't control his or her world or what they're doing, they're not going to be happy. And I cannot stand my son or daughter not being happy because that hurts me. So working on that is very important. To trust them and to love yourself and to trust to yourself And to work on your fear, um and to work on your fear is about the inner job, like you can do with with a coach, with a therapist, with your friends, or by being alone and having conversations with yourself and observing, observing your reaction, of so your reactions, your emotions, how you feel when you see them,
00:27:07
Speaker
wearing the makeup and buying creams and only going on the weekends to the shopping mall and all they do is buy creams and makeup and show them on TikTok, right? What do you feel? You feel they are, you're failing as a mom. You're feeling, youre you feel, how can I change that? I don't have the control. Why do you need to have the control? Why? Can't you allow them to discover life on their own and be there in case they need you? like To ask those questions, may you go to some places that you might sometimes not go because um you're scared or you don't have the time to go there because you're too busy with your life?
00:27:55
Speaker
Well, I think we all need to go there and find peace and find calm. And from that, deal with our children, from peace, from calm, from trusting. And then you deal with their obsession with TikTok, with makeup, with gym or whatever, and because you will be dealing with it from a wise, calm point of view instead of from fear or from um insecurity. Really good advice and as you were talking I was thinking of a couple of other things that I always try to keep in mind and one is that every stage of parenting is a phase and everything that our kids do and go through is a phase. it is not necessary It isn't going to last.
00:28:44
Speaker
except in very extreme certain circumstances. So when um where my kids were very small and they didn't sleep or they were teething and they were upset all the time or they had colic or they were um bed wetting, let's say, ah I tried to remind myself in those awful moments of frustration about how hard my life as a parent was that everything was a phase and they were definitely going to grow out of it. And it was a piece of advice that my health visitor said to me, probably when my first child was only about six weeks old, I was going, she's like this and she she won't do that. and
00:29:25
Speaker
I can't cope with this. And she said, just take it one day at a time. Try to remember this isn't going to last forever. And then I always used to laugh that that became true. And that particular thing that I was worried about stopped to be replaced by something else that I was worried about. And that has continued to be true all the way through their lives. And the only thing that's made it any better is me remembering that one, it's not going to last and two, I have to do what I need for myself whilst it's happening.
00:30:01
Speaker
I cannot control them. And I remember my daughter going through exactly that makeup phase, um going to wanting to go to... I'm ashamed of it now, actually. I remember one time I was so frustrated as I was trying to get them out of the door to school. So it must still have been primary school. um um We were late and my daughter came downstairs. She'd been delaying us. She came downstairs with a face full of very poorly applied makeup, because I don't know she was eight. ah And I just grabbed wet wipes and scrubbed her face and made her cry and I was angry and crying and it was a terrible moment.
00:30:40
Speaker
But i that she she did then go on to be very, very good at expertly applying heavy makeup before pretty much giving up completely. It was just a phase and she couldn't be bothered with it anymore. And so just letting it pass and weathering it and coping with my own emotions would have been the better solution as you described. Yeah, I'm thinking about a few things while I'm hearing you talking. I would say, first of all, if mom is wearing makeup, how can you tell your daughter not to? Or that this is not good, this is bad, you don't have to wear makeup. That's not the good approach because they're seeing you putting makeup every time you youll go out of your house, right? That's one thing. The second thing is,
00:31:35
Speaker
We are seeing their makeup from our adult point of view. They are seeing it as a game, as a try. I'm going to try to be as an old woman or as my mom, or I'm going to try to be as the celebrity. They're trying. If you put so much evilness In that, they will get so confused because, first of all, mom is wearing it. Second of all, mom is getting crazy when what when she sees me wearing it. Why? They don't understand. And the third thing I was i was thinking is,
00:32:13
Speaker
we should shift the point of view ah from which we look at our kids. We look at them as something we need to tailor, we need to fix, we need to ah teach them. I think we need to shift that point of view towards we need to learn from them. They are the ones, things they are born that knows love, joy, gratitude, um playfulness. We don't know that. We have forgotten that, yeah but they know. So just shut up a little, mom, dad, and learn from me. Learn how to live.
00:33:04
Speaker
learn how to be curious, how to look at animals, flowers, how to taste the food, how to express yourself, how to be joyful. We need to learn more from them instead of trying to teach them constantly how to be or who to be aha when they're toddlers, when they're children, and also when they're teenagers. If we would see them as people instead of our job, yes we would be willing to spend more time with them.
00:33:41
Speaker
seeing life through their eyes and hearing from them how they dream, how they see themselves in the future, how they see the friendships, how they see, I don't know, everything, instead of lecturing them constantly. on a life that we are showing them didn't work for us because the majority of us is not that we are completely happy and calm and and we got that success that we want for our kids. Normally we don't have that and we are lecturing them and preaching this is what you need to do and this is what you don't need to do in order to get to a place I haven't been yet.
00:34:28
Speaker
So, yes, we need to teach them, of course, but sometimes just remove that hat of teacher or of boss or owner and be with them as soul with soul, learning from one another. That, I assure you, will release the tension of your kid next to you, especially teenagers. Because there's certain age, if you haven't done this, that they kind of can reject you and do their lives independently. But when they're teenagers, you're so you still have time to allow them to just relax and be whoever their soul is with your soul.

Children as Individuals, Not Projects

00:35:14
Speaker
and go with them to the mall, watch a film with them, ah play, the go to the gym with them and and see the world through each other's eyes. I think it's much more effective than giving lessons constantly about what they need to do or not. I love that. it's ah perfect This is going to be a sound by seeing your kids as a person and not as your job. That's a complete reframe for me and it really um resonated.
00:35:49
Speaker
but I could hear my my daughter especially ah She must have been maybe sixteen when she started to say this to me, it's like not everything has to be a teachable moment mum. She knew that whenever she told me something I was always looking to highlight the thing that she needed to learn from that experience. um And i it was only when I started to listen. I still catch myself doing it and she catches me doing it, but um' I'm very aware of it now and I try not to. Not everything is a teachable moment and she's not my job anymore. And if it is teachable, it is teachable for you.
00:36:31
Speaker
You are the one who have to learn. Right. And actually, I i say this to a lot of my clients, you you need to trust that you've done a good enough job so far that they're looking for their own teachable moments. They don't blindly go through life missing every life lesson because you've taught them. So they have, but they'll learn a lesson for themselves much better than they will learn it from you telling them it. So it makes complete sense. Yeah. I think our job is really to love them and to secure. They feel emotionally fulfilled. So then they are capable of going into their adult life because it's what 20 years of kind of childhood.
00:37:19
Speaker
but then they have 60 years of adulthood where they need to be themselves, right? So in order for them to be successful in any sort of way in those years, our job is only to make sure they feel seen, they feel heard, they feel loved, and they connect to themselves in order to go into their adult lives confident enough to try and fail and succeed and fail again and succeed again and do their thing. Brilliant.

Lorena's Coaching and Resources

00:37:51
Speaker
Lorena, where can people find you if they would like to know more about what you do?
00:37:57
Speaker
Well, I have my website um is lbcoach.co.uk. And um I founded Live Love Better. It's a platform where we we are quite new. We started in January and we do events for parents, but also for couples, for women, for teenagers, um and like different areas for for business people as well. um I write a blog there every month. We have the social media.
00:38:31
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, that i I'm really seeing it's helping. So we're trying every day to expand and to do more things so we can reach more people. I'm very happy with how it's going. Fantastic. I'll put the links to those locations in the show notes for anybody that's listening that would like to get involved or know more or work with Lorena. um Just scroll down after you finish listening. Lorena, thank you so much for talking to us today. It's been really interesting.
00:39:05
Speaker
thank you Thank you so much for having me and giving me the opportunity to speak with you. Thank you so much for

Conclusion and Listener Engagement

00:39:11
Speaker
listening. I really do appreciate it. Thank you too to everyone who's already rated and reviewed the podcast. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Amazon, it would mean the world to me if you could leave a review. It really helps get the word out, as well as making me very happy to read what you have to say. If this episode strikes a chord for you, please share it with anyone else you know who might be in the same boat and hit subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. If you have a story or a suggestion for something you'd like to see covered on the podcast, you can email me at Teenage Kicks Podcast at gmail dot.com or message me on Instagram. i'm I am Helen Wills. I love hearing from all my listeners. It really makes a difference to me on this journey.
00:39:58
Speaker
See you next week when I'll be chatting to another brilliant guest about the highs and lows of parenting teens. Bye for now!